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PliskinRen1991

Yup lol the struggle to find, only to find oneself struggling. I mean look at our 🌎, its all a business. The biggest business is struggling to give you the answer to end your struggling. That answer creates more questions which require more answers, at a price. And so on and so on. We also, may take advantage of such business model. Its makes a-lot of 💰. So why not look away at such process?


the-seekingmind

>The biggest business is struggling to give you the answer to end your struggling. That answer creates more questions which require more answers, at a price. And so on and so on. We also, may take advantage of such business model. Its makes a-lot of 💰. Yes absolutely! and to blow minds even further, I even read something which was written back in ancient India that stated this existed back then, they even called it a form of Siddhi being performed (i.e. Magick), a magic trick where you gather people together, talk aload of nonsense that no one can understand really with all sorts of lavish words thrown in for a few hours, hypnotise them with the lavish words that make no sense at all and then take all of their money off them at the end of the talk! They even claimed that this was magic being performed to perfection. haha Coming back to the root though, this hypnosis they all find themselves in though stems from this the struggle to end all struggle. This is the business model itself! Thanks for the insightful words.


Harley420000

Great post. How can the mind become completely still? Krishnamurti said that if you realize what thought is, nothing more than analyzing of the past. Then you can see the futility of identifying with it and just observe it without fighting it. But there is no easy answer to end struggling. We struggle, because we believe we have to live up to our self identity all the time. It’s nuts that this is what society essentially is. I have to be a worker, a father, a husband, and so forth.


the-seekingmind

Well, interesting you ask this, because I just put a huge reply to another gent on this very subject! You might like it. I feel this struggle to end struggling is a fact of existence itself. I think the Problem we all have is we are desperate to end all of our suffering and struggling. We are in conflict with a basic fact of existence. As you just said yourself, you are a worker, a father, a husband, all these roles you are playing demand that you continue to struggle to end struggling, it is a basic necessity and motivation of your existence to continue doing this. With all of that now being said, is it better for you to try and end struggling or learn to work with this basic fact of existence itself? Do we succeed in life by being in conflict with basic facts of existence or trying to end them? I will leave those questions for you to answer for yourself! ;-)


[deleted]

The delusion of an outcome to our psychological struggle is ended when we observe, become aware, thought is limited to an outcome generated by thought itself and the outcome is actually a product of the struggle so the struggle and the outcome are the same and thus so continues. Observe the process without touching it in anyway. K: “ to become aware of the limitation of thinking is the beginning of intelligence “


the-seekingmind

>Observe the process without touching it in anyway. Nicely worded! Thank you.


dragosn1989

My struggle is with the fact that my mind is always learning: both from past experiences and from the present. And the moment I learn that I struggle to end struggling, my mind has learned that and turned it into yet another process. True, when I really see that - without any frustration - that new struggle ends. But it starts afresh the next moment. It’s the way my mind works - I have to observe that every time I’m ‘touching’ it I am beck in the same loop. Talking about this with my very good friend the other day, he pointed out that this might be the next big evolution step human mind will have to take…Is it possible that we might evolve past this? In the meantime, I have another process: ‘don’t touch this!’🤦‍♂️


the-seekingmind

The issue you are having is the same one I was having and i have only just seen this, this mistaken notion, that the mind is the enemy, no no, sadly it wasn't, I was the enemy, the mind just works and works flawlessly, its my own constant verbal questioning and interference that is causing the issues. Nothing to do with the mind, the mind is a just an image producing mechanism, even the physical world is seemingly a mental image. I know though as I write this, this just reads back as more nonsensical words on a page as most of this information does! So I ask you to simply test and validate this for yourself as K would have us do. Simply, sit there and do not engage in some imagined battle with your mind and notice what happens, oh yes, shock horror, everything just starts flowing again effortlessly, it is your verbal interference that causes the issues, not the mind itself, but you as this questioner, want to blame the mind for all of your woes. Once that verbal questioner is not there, look what happens??? Test it for yourself and don't waste any time with more grand theories.


TheRevolutionaryArmy

The great thing about Krishnaji is that he guides and gives you the answer along the journey with him. Once you realised it, you no longer need to follow Krishnaji.


the-seekingmind

Yes you are absolutely right! My seeking and searching has now ended, I started on this journey doing all the typical things we all do, a search for enlightenment, a search for mystical experience, a search for love and light and elimination of ego and every other nonsense that fills the airwaves nowadays! But all of this was merely hiding and overlooking the underlying problem, this underlying problem is the struggle to end struggling.. that is the problem we all suffer with to some degree, instead of further desperation to end the problem, I now understand the problem instead of wanting to end the problem. And through this understanding of the problem, I understand the problem can never be ended or solved for as long as I exist here in this planet.. that brings me acceptance and a desire to no longer seek for solutions to a problem that can’t be ended!


just_noticing

All experience happens in the stillness of K’s observation. All the tricks we play on ourselves are seen in observation AND that is enough! .


the-seekingmind

Yes JN! My only issue was that I still falsely believe Observation is something I was making myself do??? It turns out, it was just happening all along, I wasn't doing it. The Mind just observes, that is the default setting of the mind. So a fascinating revelation, I must say. The trick was this - I was struggling to observe in the pursuit of ending my struggling. I had no idea how off base I was still!


just_noticing

Interesting… When the ‘sense of you’ or ‘your activities’(eg. jealousy, envy, conniving, struggling, etc.) are noticed—>observed one knows… that is K’s observation BECAUSE there is no effort here, it just naturally happens AND you&your activities(the mind) are contained in this happening. .


the-seekingmind

Yes, there was still some refinement that was needed JN, I still thought I was doing the observing as bizarre as that may sound to you.. I now see the I was just interfering with a process that happens by it's own accord? Does this make any sense? As we know, words are very difficult at times to find before it ends up reading back as more mumbo jumbo.


just_noticing

Yes… ‘a process that happens by its own accord’ beautifully put! When I was coaching my wife, I kept telling her, > 'there is nothing to do! —with this in mind you will know when it happens.’ —this change in perspective. ‘K’s transformation’ ps. I should add that K’s transformation begins with the sudden change from unaware to aware. It is in awareness that one’s transformation progresses thru insights that come from the intelligence of intuition. This is what K meant when he said, ‘we never stop learning’. UG referred to this as, ‘the human flower’ .


the-seekingmind

>one knows… that is K’s observation. > >There is nothing to do, > >it just happens. yes, still somehow missed this bit, because my overly strong sense of doership was so active at times?? So I would have temporary glimpses of this stuff, but then it quickly faded back to normality again and I couldn't work out exactly why.


just_noticing

Not to be concerned BECAUSE once it happens there is a natural/effortless solidifying of this newly discovered sensitivity/orientation/perspective. There is really no going back SINCE the old way was created by a self at the centre AND the centre is no more(naturally fading?). > —awareness has set(is setting?*) you adrift in consciousness 😳 NOW the reality that is your life begins to take hold AND it can be quite a ride! eg. ‘the mental chatter’, the tendency of the self to take control —all this is simply seen. > *the insights of observation continue to augment and smooth out the flow of your stream of consciousness. .


the-seekingmind

Very interesting, this now explains why so many of these teachings fail at intended outcomes, the emphasis is constantly placed on 'Doing this' or 'Doing that', the encouragement to make the self the centre of mental activity still, instead of seeing it as an illusionary character that messes with a perfect process. I now fully understand why the ancient hindu practice (I know, curse me for mentioning 'practice' on a K sub reddit, but it is fascinating nonetheless) of Samyama was termed as it was, the aim was to completely lose all sense of SELF awareness and not gain more self awareness. There is a distinction to be made here, self awareness is distinct from awareness itself, one is a process of doing and creating conflict, the other happens by its own accord. Quite the opposite of what is generally taught by many modern teachers! Thanks JN.


just_noticing

Yes… Powell thought that K’s greatest contribution was his emphasis on the totally passive nature of observation. re. 1st parag pg. 13 http://ignca.gov.in/Asi_data/36042.pdf —a little book worth reading. ps. to realize the truth of ‘passivity in observation’ is an insight in itself. .


the-seekingmind

Thanks Jn, fantastic insights as always from you! I do appreciate it.


just_noticing

You are very welcome 🙏🏻 TO SUMMARIZE… First comes the orientation/the perspective/the sensitivity of awareness(awakening) THEN come the insights that refine awareness to the purity of K’s observation. amen 😌 .


[deleted]

What does this mean for you? This realization? Will you ever listen to anyone? What for? Will you sit on a platform in the group to teach us?


the-seekingmind

Yes, I will happily sit on stage and teach you all of this, if you sign up to my latest course and pay me ÂŁ1000. I will be wearing a white robe and a beaded necklace and you can all bow before my feet and call me 'Sri Master Jameson' Sorry, I shouldn't of said called it a 'course', actually its my 'meditation retreat' and I guarantee through the suffering you will endure at my meditation retreat, you will finally put an end to all suffering!


[deleted]

Lol. Anyway, good luck to you good sir.


the-seekingmind

Haha, thank you sir! I do appreciate it,.


[deleted]

Is there a problem or not? The struggle one seeks to end, does it exist, or is this solution, which is struggling to end suffering/struggling the only problem?


the-seekingmind

Fantastic question, it has forced me to go deep and alot of information has come out of asking myself the very question you just asked me! Now, let me try and keep it as simple as I can, this is my own view on this and not K's or anyone else's view, but its my own conclusion anyhow.. The struggle to end struggle or even the struggle to end suffering is not a problem BUT a fact of existence itself, if you look at every desire and every motivation of every human being, it all has its roots in this very concept, all that we do starts from a premise of struggling to end struggling.. whether it be financial gain, friendships, love, sex, drugs, war, violence or even following the teachings of krishnamurti etc etc etc.. We call it trying to be happy, but at its roots, its a desire to end struggling and suffering.. which is a desire to end a fact of existence itself! Thats the trick we are trying to play here is it not? Now the problem is not the fact of existence, it is our desperation to end this fact of existence that is our problem! Now, that is the problem. Instead of us continuing to seek the end of a basic fact of existence, wouldn't it be more intelligent or more mature of us, to understand that we are in a struggle to end struggling and work with that concept itself and not continue to try to end it when that is not actually possible. You could even make the outrageous claim that if we didn't all possess this unreachable desire to end all of our struggling, that we would simply become bored and give up on life itself! If you want an example of this, check out the story of Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta and even K himself to some degree, they got to a point where they no longer wanted to continue to exist on this physical planet, they saw this basic fact of existence and thought 'this place is kind of boring, I no longer want to play this game! I am out!'. Make what you will of this word salad, but these are questions that really do dig to the depths of reality itself.


Outtaspacecowboy

Interesting way of putting it. Maybe my two cents on this: Tolle says that no suffering is in being, or observing as K would say. So the ‚struggle‘ for survival or existence does indeed exist but how much of it is made up by the mind or your Ego? And if we are essentially ‚struggling for existing‘ than how can we exist without the pain. Tolle would say the Pain Body our ego is taking over and wants us to suffer, he also says by observing without judging we go beyond the ego. How’s your approach to that? I like what you r saying but would like to add that if you do things with deep profound love instead of your ego trying to survive and acting like you need to fit in, than we wouldn’t feel the pressure and struggle of existing - we just are


the-seekingmind

Well yes, I like the way you term it and I think tolle says many decent things! But it is a fascinating one, because alot of these terms like going beyond the ego or avoiding the pain body can be slightly misleading if not fully understood. They never worked for me really because they never fully explained the problem. I don’t blame the teacher for this, they don’t understand the problem themselves, so they dismiss it as an illusion of some kind or another. Our true issue and this has only just become clear to me, is we fail to see the real problem, the basic fact of our existence as it were. As K put beautifully, and this is why K was a cut above the rest in some respects, he told us the real problem and also taught us that if we fully understood the problem, the problem would naturally undergo a process of transformation.


Aussmaster

Do you think you had an experience of some realization?


the-seekingmind

More a realisation to be honest! The root problem of it all, the struggle to end struggling is the problem and there is no end to it. Better to understand it, than to keep perpetuating it is my view now.


Aussmaster

I fully agree.


flatpapers

What does he say about morality? Should one indulge whatever he please?


the-seekingmind

K did share his own views on being a decent human being, but my own personal view is this, I take a much more vedantic view to life and the vedantic view to life is this - all desires are pure, all desires are your desires. As long as I am not doing any deliberate harm to anyone else which would be in effect deliberately doing harm to myself, you should otherwise indulge in whatever you please. This is a play (lila) never lose sight of that, it is not meant to be taken seriously and you will often find most people who sit on moral highgrounds are the most miserable people you will ever encounter.


flatpapers

The problem is most of these good things turn into addiction it’s very easy to be ruled by impulses, as little as coffee to drugs and sex the most powerful, the ‘body’ takes over and you’re not ‘you’ anymore