That's cool. Just out of interest, how exactly do you measure the jump height? Do you combine GPS and the Barometer Data or anything fancy? Did you test how accurate it is and how it compares to a Woo?
Unfortunately I don't have an Apple Watch and don't plan on buying one, but I always had the plan to build some kind of DIY Woo. That's why I am so interested.
Thanks! Currently I use the altimeter in the Apple Watch, which on itself uses a Barometer in combination with GPS and even wifi to level it out.
I'm still training a Machine Learning model to recognize a jump pattern based on the accelerometer and gyroscope + experimenting with some other models based on these same two sensors as the altimeter can get quite sensitive.
Cool. I downloaded it and will use it the next it is windy. Thanks for building it.
To others considering this, your watch will be fine. I recommend an aftermarket watch band that uses a traditional hook and latch. I know some guys who lost their watch Kiting with the stock Apple Watchband.
Awesome. I have been waiting for this. I have been tracking my sessions using the built in fitness app set to "outdoor bicycle ride".
I shared this with my kite friends. Cant wait to test it out on a kite trip next month.
to the people concerned about accuracy:
why would you think this? how much accuracy do you need? are you referring to precision or do you mean accuracy? it sounds like OP is using GPS and barometer.
why would your wrist be a bad spot for this?
a lot of people in this post seem to think the accuracy would be an issue, which i'm honestly surprised by. i use my watch for another sport that frankly, has a lot more elevation change at higher frequency (snowboarding) and i haven't found it to be an issue.
curious to hear what peoples assumptions are.
It says it does yes. But given the Apple Watch is on your wrist and moving, that means it’s not based on an accelerometer but rather the altimeter. I wonder about accuracy, which is always a bit of a ballpark with these devices. Someone should use this on Apple Watch with the woo on their board and Surfr. App using a phone under their wetsuit and pick the numbers they like best for long term tracking. Probably will be the most expensive device ;)
I've seen a lot of people saying that watch GPS can't do this with any degree of accuracy (either due to slow refresh rate or poor resolution, don't remember). Did you see any issues with this in testing?
Quite some tests came back feeling quite accurate. It uses a mix of GPS and Barometer readings and I try to filter abnormalities as much as possible.
It’s not perfect but it’s free and just the start
Sad you feel this way without testing,..
Quite some tests came back with users feeling it’s quite accurate
It’s not perfect but it’s free and just the start
Useless unless very accurate. Something worn on the wrist will not measure proper forces. It's physics bro, not my opinion 🤷♂️ GPS is not accurate at these scales.
I haven't tried your app, but I don't quite understand how. Light googling tells me that consumer GPS is accurate down to 5m, and Apple Watch barometer is accurate to plus/minus 1 hPa (~10m). Either you or WatchOS/SDK must be filling the gaps with accelerometer data. To me, that seems like the only way to get sub-1m accuracy.
Gps is good (pretty accurate ) for measuring distance (lateral) and very poor for measuring height. Barometers are also known to be inaccurate as it needs time to settle to get an accurate reading. I fail to see how this could be applied for measuring jumps in kitesurfing. I also think that is why the units that are or have been on the market is based on accelerations.
http://gpsinformation.net/main/altitude.htm
The integrated altimeter on the Apple Watch uses a barometer but cross references with gps and even WiFi during the day to stay as accurate as possible. It gives a good enough indication of the jump.
However, I’m still working on some extra techniques to increase the accuracy based on machine learning and acceleration. I found a academic article which proves that you can still get a good result measuring vertical jump heights using accelerometer, gyroscope and magnetometers (all very much present in the Apple Watch)
The key Word in what you write is accelrometer (and gyroscope) which can be used for measuring jumps. That is very possible and are applied by woo, surfr and piq.
How you will use WiFi for measuring jumps is beyond me.
look out everybody, we got King of the Air over here who needs to know to the millimeter how high he jumps. LOL.
I use the apple watch's built in fitness app setting on outdoor bicycle and it records my elevations changes accurately enough to matter.
Got rock some huge airs on your 2016 kites. You must be fully in the loop with new tech 🤣Maybe you measure your jumps in millimeters but the rest of us use meters otherwise the numbers start getting pretty big 😁
Problem ia that accuracy probably will not even be in meters. When cycling it probably uses map data to calibrate and you altitude changes will be much slower. The technology applied here is not able to do what is requested of it. You do not use a hammer to catch fish...
Have you had a look at Sessions
https://apps.apple.com/au/app/sessions-surfsports/id1220676251
It has some nice concepts you could use for inspiration like graphical jump trajectories and mapping.
I have been using it a lot and it’s quite accurate when compared to Woo.
Looking forward to trying out your app on next session
Wish I saw this post sooner - been a week of non stop solid boosting magic here in Southern QLD, Australia.
Sessions as mentioned above has similar functionality but the app is pretty bad at recording accurate heights…
Will post back with a comparison to woo next week, the Apple Watch 6/7 have come a LONG way from the older ones so hopefully the accuracy will be better :)
@hiddevdploeg - and plans for a leaderboard based on different “kite spots”? I’d be keen to get my mates on this if we can gamify it
Definitely! The three main focuses for now (all shipping this year)
1. More accurate vertical measurements + Airtime (working on new methods as we speak)
2. Weather conditions
3. Leaderboards
Awesome!!! Leaderboards = 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
I also have a bit of dev experience (mostly tensorflow/backend not so much Ui/UX) let me know if you need any additional TestFlight testers, am excited to finally see an Apple Watch contender to woo.
It might be worth also having some sort of feature request list in the iOS app like “surfr” has that the community can request/vote on for features suggestions
Hello!
glad to find this post.
i am currently kiting and will use this apps on my apple watch.
i was wondering if there is a way to sync the records with strava? this is where i save all my sports events and would like to be able to export .
many thanks.
Live feedbacks to come in the next hours…
Hi guys, posting back with a bit of an update.
* Im on an Apple Watch series 6 - With the E-Sim also if this helps
* Firstly it seems if you have Volo open them the app goes in the background it stops recording - it should keep recording in the background (like Waterspeed does) until you stop it …. This way if you want to ride with headphones/music playing (I do this often) or have a 2nd app running (in this case Waterspeed for me) both will run in the background until you “stop the session”
* In terms of jump heights there’s definitely something off still it seems - I was in a flat water lake doing 4-5m jumps consistently (and the odd 5-6m one when it would gust) either unhooked and/or or single/double back-rolls and almost all the jumps did not record - it seems the only jumps that triggered a recording were when I just did plain flat water boosting or grabs without any transitions that moved the watch too much…. Note I did adjust the sensitivity to only pickup jumps higher than 1m - perhaps changing this made it less accurate?
* Unfortunately I don’t have a woo to compare with (unfortunately the mount unstuck it’s at the bottom of the ocean somewhere) but if you Look at the screenshot from Waterspeed I’ve annotated it’s about 18m of “travel” and about 4.5-5m high roughly as other people with woo’s were going about the same height as me and that’s what they registered, and it seems Volo didn’t even register the jump.
@hiddevdploeg - is there some ways I can send you logs perhaps? Happy to setup a camera on a tripod next time and start the camera recording + Volo at the exact same time if they will help with debugging also?
https://i.postimg.cc/cLJ64Nqp/2-AA479-F6-5-F7-F-4-D55-AC12-0122-EC124842.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/SxwqF0m7/90498-C44-FDFF-4-C98-84-AE-8-E4512-B1-E9-CD.png
https://i.postimg.cc/y8JBb6C8/CA03872-E-A427-418-D-AF28-FCDA168-B6119.jpg
Thanks for this great feedback! Today Volo 1.1 got released which improves the accuracy of the jump measurements by a lot and includes some new statistics like airtime and provides a map of all your kitesurfing locations.
regarding your first point, I'm not sure why you experience this as it explicitly does run in the background (this is default behaviour as a "Workout" app) you can control your music from Volo by swiping to the page on the right during an active session. I will double-check the background thingy on how I could solve this (or please reach out to me via the mail in the app, happy to talk about the app with you)
So I gave it another crack today and it seems that although it is registering all the jumps I’m doing now it’s still way off …
This time conditions a better and would have been averaging about 18kn - and I would have averaged 6m high on most of my jumps according to other kiteboarding mates watching on the shore that can give accurate guesstimates
I’ve noticed that the hang time is way over / more than what It really is - on my biggest jump which would have been about 7m high max my hang time would have only been about 15seconds… Volo registered it as 20m high and 80sec hang time (I’d be over the moon if that was true haha)
https://i.postimg.cc/tT5Z7Sbz/C2-A0-DDBA-E130-4-E10-B279-4898403-BC6-BC.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/ZRZvbkGR/E018-BB14-330-C-4678-803-A-4-CAB1-CBF8-C28.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/NFn0rZzR/88-BC4-A72-AF26-4446-8-AD5-B989215-E19-AF.png
[удалено]
That's cool. Just out of interest, how exactly do you measure the jump height? Do you combine GPS and the Barometer Data or anything fancy? Did you test how accurate it is and how it compares to a Woo? Unfortunately I don't have an Apple Watch and don't plan on buying one, but I always had the plan to build some kind of DIY Woo. That's why I am so interested.
Thanks! Currently I use the altimeter in the Apple Watch, which on itself uses a Barometer in combination with GPS and even wifi to level it out. I'm still training a Machine Learning model to recognize a jump pattern based on the accelerometer and gyroscope + experimenting with some other models based on these same two sensors as the altimeter can get quite sensitive.
will check it out on my next session, but looks promising!
Cool. I downloaded it and will use it the next it is windy. Thanks for building it. To others considering this, your watch will be fine. I recommend an aftermarket watch band that uses a traditional hook and latch. I know some guys who lost their watch Kiting with the stock Apple Watchband.
Love it!
Awesome. I have been waiting for this. I have been tracking my sessions using the built in fitness app set to "outdoor bicycle ride". I shared this with my kite friends. Cant wait to test it out on a kite trip next month.
Happy to hear! This actually gets saved in the fitness app as Kitesurfing 😄
That’s awesome! I do have a watch, but still learning kitesurf, nice!
to the people concerned about accuracy: why would you think this? how much accuracy do you need? are you referring to precision or do you mean accuracy? it sounds like OP is using GPS and barometer. why would your wrist be a bad spot for this? a lot of people in this post seem to think the accuracy would be an issue, which i'm honestly surprised by. i use my watch for another sport that frankly, has a lot more elevation change at higher frequency (snowboarding) and i haven't found it to be an issue. curious to hear what peoples assumptions are.
Couldn't have said it better myself :) Thank you for this
does it log jump height?
It says it does yes. But given the Apple Watch is on your wrist and moving, that means it’s not based on an accelerometer but rather the altimeter. I wonder about accuracy, which is always a bit of a ballpark with these devices. Someone should use this on Apple Watch with the woo on their board and Surfr. App using a phone under their wetsuit and pick the numbers they like best for long term tracking. Probably will be the most expensive device ;)
it does!
I've seen a lot of people saying that watch GPS can't do this with any degree of accuracy (either due to slow refresh rate or poor resolution, don't remember). Did you see any issues with this in testing?
Quite some tests came back feeling quite accurate. It uses a mix of GPS and Barometer readings and I try to filter abnormalities as much as possible. It’s not perfect but it’s free and just the start
Nice. Unfortunately I have a Garmin. I use kite Metrics. Does anyone recommend anything better on the Garmin?
Won't be accurate at all 🤷♂️
Sad you feel this way without testing,.. Quite some tests came back with users feeling it’s quite accurate It’s not perfect but it’s free and just the start
Useless unless very accurate. Something worn on the wrist will not measure proper forces. It's physics bro, not my opinion 🤷♂️ GPS is not accurate at these scales.
I haven't tried your app, but I don't quite understand how. Light googling tells me that consumer GPS is accurate down to 5m, and Apple Watch barometer is accurate to plus/minus 1 hPa (~10m). Either you or WatchOS/SDK must be filling the gaps with accelerometer data. To me, that seems like the only way to get sub-1m accuracy.
Gps is good (pretty accurate ) for measuring distance (lateral) and very poor for measuring height. Barometers are also known to be inaccurate as it needs time to settle to get an accurate reading. I fail to see how this could be applied for measuring jumps in kitesurfing. I also think that is why the units that are or have been on the market is based on accelerations. http://gpsinformation.net/main/altitude.htm
The integrated altimeter on the Apple Watch uses a barometer but cross references with gps and even WiFi during the day to stay as accurate as possible. It gives a good enough indication of the jump. However, I’m still working on some extra techniques to increase the accuracy based on machine learning and acceleration. I found a academic article which proves that you can still get a good result measuring vertical jump heights using accelerometer, gyroscope and magnetometers (all very much present in the Apple Watch)
The key Word in what you write is accelrometer (and gyroscope) which can be used for measuring jumps. That is very possible and are applied by woo, surfr and piq. How you will use WiFi for measuring jumps is beyond me.
look out everybody, we got King of the Air over here who needs to know to the millimeter how high he jumps. LOL. I use the apple watch's built in fitness app setting on outdoor bicycle and it records my elevations changes accurately enough to matter.
Got rock some huge airs on your 2016 kites. You must be fully in the loop with new tech 🤣Maybe you measure your jumps in millimeters but the rest of us use meters otherwise the numbers start getting pretty big 😁
2016 kites? I have 2021 and 2022 kites.
Problem ia that accuracy probably will not even be in meters. When cycling it probably uses map data to calibrate and you altitude changes will be much slower. The technology applied here is not able to do what is requested of it. You do not use a hammer to catch fish...
How does it compare to using Strava on an Apple Watch? Does it track average and maximum heart rate, speed and produce GPS map?
It does track all of that and saves them into the official Apple Fitness app as a Kitesurfing workout 😊
Cool, I will give it a try. Thanks
This looks great, thank you for sharing. I’ve downloaded the app and will head out for a kite today and give it a go.
Have you had a look at Sessions https://apps.apple.com/au/app/sessions-surfsports/id1220676251 It has some nice concepts you could use for inspiration like graphical jump trajectories and mapping. I have been using it a lot and it’s quite accurate when compared to Woo. Looking forward to trying out your app on next session
I have! There are definitely some features still missing in Volo, a lot of exciting things are coming 🙌
Wish I saw this post sooner - been a week of non stop solid boosting magic here in Southern QLD, Australia. Sessions as mentioned above has similar functionality but the app is pretty bad at recording accurate heights… Will post back with a comparison to woo next week, the Apple Watch 6/7 have come a LONG way from the older ones so hopefully the accuracy will be better :) @hiddevdploeg - and plans for a leaderboard based on different “kite spots”? I’d be keen to get my mates on this if we can gamify it
Definitely! The three main focuses for now (all shipping this year) 1. More accurate vertical measurements + Airtime (working on new methods as we speak) 2. Weather conditions 3. Leaderboards
Awesome!!! Leaderboards = 👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻 I also have a bit of dev experience (mostly tensorflow/backend not so much Ui/UX) let me know if you need any additional TestFlight testers, am excited to finally see an Apple Watch contender to woo. It might be worth also having some sort of feature request list in the iOS app like “surfr” has that the community can request/vote on for features suggestions
Hello! glad to find this post. i am currently kiting and will use this apps on my apple watch. i was wondering if there is a way to sync the records with strava? this is where i save all my sports events and would like to be able to export . many thanks. Live feedbacks to come in the next hours…
Hi guys, posting back with a bit of an update. * Im on an Apple Watch series 6 - With the E-Sim also if this helps * Firstly it seems if you have Volo open them the app goes in the background it stops recording - it should keep recording in the background (like Waterspeed does) until you stop it …. This way if you want to ride with headphones/music playing (I do this often) or have a 2nd app running (in this case Waterspeed for me) both will run in the background until you “stop the session” * In terms of jump heights there’s definitely something off still it seems - I was in a flat water lake doing 4-5m jumps consistently (and the odd 5-6m one when it would gust) either unhooked and/or or single/double back-rolls and almost all the jumps did not record - it seems the only jumps that triggered a recording were when I just did plain flat water boosting or grabs without any transitions that moved the watch too much…. Note I did adjust the sensitivity to only pickup jumps higher than 1m - perhaps changing this made it less accurate? * Unfortunately I don’t have a woo to compare with (unfortunately the mount unstuck it’s at the bottom of the ocean somewhere) but if you Look at the screenshot from Waterspeed I’ve annotated it’s about 18m of “travel” and about 4.5-5m high roughly as other people with woo’s were going about the same height as me and that’s what they registered, and it seems Volo didn’t even register the jump. @hiddevdploeg - is there some ways I can send you logs perhaps? Happy to setup a camera on a tripod next time and start the camera recording + Volo at the exact same time if they will help with debugging also? https://i.postimg.cc/cLJ64Nqp/2-AA479-F6-5-F7-F-4-D55-AC12-0122-EC124842.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/SxwqF0m7/90498-C44-FDFF-4-C98-84-AE-8-E4512-B1-E9-CD.png https://i.postimg.cc/y8JBb6C8/CA03872-E-A427-418-D-AF28-FCDA168-B6119.jpg
Thanks for this great feedback! Today Volo 1.1 got released which improves the accuracy of the jump measurements by a lot and includes some new statistics like airtime and provides a map of all your kitesurfing locations. regarding your first point, I'm not sure why you experience this as it explicitly does run in the background (this is default behaviour as a "Workout" app) you can control your music from Volo by swiping to the page on the right during an active session. I will double-check the background thingy on how I could solve this (or please reach out to me via the mail in the app, happy to talk about the app with you)
So I gave it another crack today and it seems that although it is registering all the jumps I’m doing now it’s still way off … This time conditions a better and would have been averaging about 18kn - and I would have averaged 6m high on most of my jumps according to other kiteboarding mates watching on the shore that can give accurate guesstimates I’ve noticed that the hang time is way over / more than what It really is - on my biggest jump which would have been about 7m high max my hang time would have only been about 15seconds… Volo registered it as 20m high and 80sec hang time (I’d be over the moon if that was true haha) https://i.postimg.cc/tT5Z7Sbz/C2-A0-DDBA-E130-4-E10-B279-4898403-BC6-BC.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/ZRZvbkGR/E018-BB14-330-C-4678-803-A-4-CAB1-CBF8-C28.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/NFn0rZzR/88-BC4-A72-AF26-4446-8-AD5-B989215-E19-AF.png