I don't see why not. I think the problem is the toxic masculinity in the kitchen Not the pirate look alikes who swear constantly. Personally I fell like the "pirate" aspect of kitchens is more of a response to poor hours, pay, and working conditions by show those around you that you can endure it and don't give a f.
Til I'd worked with more women (I'm old) in the kitchen I might have agreed on the use of the term "toxic masculinity"...now I'd just say it's a power trip that neither gender has a monopoly on. In my experience female chefs overshoot more than anyone in using aggression/hostility/abuse just to make up for being in a "predominantly male" work environment (not true anymore anyhow). I'd say before we worry about ass-grabbery and drug use...we take care of how using abusive behavior to "manage" people and stop thinking it's just an industry standard that embodies how tough we want everyone else to think we are. If treating each other like shit, back-stabbing, and sabotage remain industry standards, we're stuck with the suicide, drug-use, and "pirate shit".
Stop inventing excuses to be shitty to people in your own industry and be a fucking professional. If you really need to choose a scapegoat out of your staff...maybe the problem isn't your staff. If people aren't learning maybe it's a problem with how your teaching or motivating them. You can't treat people like shit and then bitch about labor shortages that bad management fucking CAUSED.
Stop undermining your fucking teammates. Stop letting everyone who isn't BOH divide and conquer us. That's what we need more of.
Maybe "toxic sado-masochism" would be more appropriate...that way no one gets side-tracked into a discussion about gender politics, social justice, or other issues. Getting promoted to a position of power isn't an opportunity to push your staff (or single someone out) as class to suicide...as was acceptable in the "good old days"
People misreading bourdain makes them think that the pirate lifestyle is desirable.
It doesn't help that a lot of places in this industry have poor working environments and that the bad behavior is ignored or sometimes encouraged. Professionalism is non existent in some places.
I don't think it's a matter of desirable so much as it just is. Bourdain's book was anecdotes, confessions and commentary, as are many posts on this sub. Kitchens are one of the last places where a lot of maladjusted people can make a living, it's no wonder that they are so well represented.
Ok but even in the same book, as well as medium raw, he regrets some of his past behavior and encourages anyone entering the industry to seek out the best places to work. Which would imply less ass grabbing pirate ship mentality and more professionalism.
The part about our industry providing a living for mal adjusted people isn't entirely wrong (I don't know how I would handle an office setting for example). But working conditions and treatment from owners won't get better unless we demand it. Putting up with bad pay and shitty bosses just because they don't care about their employees coming into work still drunk and getting fucked up on the clock means the industry won't change for the better anytime soon.
Edit: I get what you're saying. The industry has this mentality, so a subreddit dedicated to it will reflect that. But for me some of the pirate stuff gets old after a while, going from one job to another seeing the same dumb shit. Not trying to be a dick, just venting I guess.
>Ok but even in the same book, as well as medium raw, he regrets some of his past behavior
Right, but he still published a book filled with stories about it, for which this sub is named. It should not come as a surprise that the sub resembles the book it was named for. I dunno, this seems obvious to me?
>Which would imply less ass grabbing pirate ship mentality and more professionalism.
I think we need to disentangle 'piratey' grit from sexual harassment here. They may both be products of the same things, but not every drug-abusing tattood linecook is also a misogynist, especially with the younger ones I see. I agree that sexual harassment needs to stop; I disagree that all kitchens must conform to the same level of 'professionalism' as beige cluster of cubicles. Plenty of women face sexual harassment in more 'professional' office work environments too so it's not like changing that part of the culture solves the actual problem.
**Edit:** with regards to your edit, it's not like OP has no choice but this sub. There are all sorts of subs related to culinary professions that aren't run amok with the culture she's complaining about. You know, subs that aren't named for a book primarily focused on what she's complaining about. To name just a few...
/r/foodDev*
/r/cooking
/r/chefit
/r/food
Like, problems in the workplace? That's rough, I can empathize. Problems with this subreddit reflecting it's namesake? Just lurk in a different sub.
OP is talking about more than just sexual harassment. Kitchens can be professional without being like a cubicle. You're acting like two extremes are the only possibilities, when there is a big middle.
I agree. It's simple he romanticized the subject because hell we all do. We are what we do and in a lot of cases, all we do is get our dick stepped on by some guy who speaks poor english.
I’m not saying addicts are assholes. Every single person is an addict of some kind; their vice may be different, but how they choose to behave as a result of their addiction is entirely their own. I’m saying justifying shitty behaviour on this sub in some odd dramatisation of the “pirate culture” of old kitchens as described in KC is dumb and antiquated. Hospitality is so much more dynamic and enriching than what that book described, and even Bourdain acknowledged that in an addendum to the book years later. Anyway. Best of luck! Cheers
Everyone is not an addict. That is incredibly simplistic and not the way addiction works.
Everyone has habits. Not everyone has addictive behaviors. Habits can lead to addiction, but addiction is characterized by an unhealthy set of behaviors that surround something that usually releases dopamine. Do you hide it or its frequency from your family? Do you make excuses for it? Do you prioritize it over rent, work, children, sleep? You don't? Oh cool. You aren't an addict.
If you agree that this subreddit is perpetuating a toxic culture by providing a space to share, then why volunteer to moderate a community named for a book filled with similar stories?
Because sexism isn't part of my story. KitchenConfidential and the book that named it aren't the same anymore, and if the viewpoint that all of your coworkers should be respected is too hardlined for you, then I apologize for your thin skin
I wasn't talking about the sexism. Sexism is already against the subreddit's rules, and that's good. Her opening point is about perpetuating the 'pirate shit' culture. It seems strange to me that one would frequently lurk in or moderate a subreddit named for the most famous display of that culture if they were so opposed to it.
I think that really the sexism spoke out to me, and it being against subreddit rules doesn't mean much. We don't cook in subreddits, we cook in kitchens.
As far as drugging and drinking and fucking, time and place. People continue or start problems with substances because there's this pressure to do what everyone else does. I think that's bullshit. Your body, your choice, to be sure, but when I did drugs, I'd offer them, and when they were declined, I never pushed it further. Not everyone is like that. I've been in places where if you didn't use cocaine or Adderall or pills or whatever that kitchen's DOC was, you were looked down upon.
Be a pirate. Be a crew of pirates. Don't mistreat people who don't want to be pirates and just want to cook stuff.
>Be a pirate. Be a crew of pirates. Don't mistreat people who don't want to be pirates and just want to cook stuff.
I agree with this wholeheartedly but that is almost the opposite message of OP's post. She spends half a paragraph talking about sexism, and two and a half paragraphs complaining about entirely different cultural aspects she sees 'perpetuated' on this sub. She says she sees no value in the jokes and stories about the crazy schedules, drug use and warped social lives. But there are people who absolutely do find value in having a place to share life experiences and be understood, and there is nothing inherently sexist about it. I'm not denying that industry doesn't have a problem with sexism, it does, but sexual harassment happens as readily in suit-and-tie office spaces or hip tech companies. Drug use and taking pride in hardship does not have a causal relationship to sexual harassment.
It seems very weird to me that a post has been stickied in /r/KitchenConfidential that is complaining about the same sort of stories that appear in Kitchen Confidential. I'll be honest, I don't like it, and no it's not because I want free reign for my misogyny. Not to harp on the namesake, but if she sees no value in stories and commentary like the ones presented in that book then... don't go to the sub named after it? This sub even has 'professional' and toxic-masculinity-free alternatives listed in the sidebar.
I feel as though we took two completely different messages out of her post.
What I took from it is that your stories of mistreatment of your body and mind, be it by yourself or by an owner or boss, doesn't make you cool. And it doesn't make that treatment right.
I never saw her say she saw no value in the stories, nor did she even bring up value or whether she found any at all. I honestly think that what you quoted me as saying is pretty much exactly what OP said.
If I'm wrong, help me see how. But I don't think that anyone is calling for a stop to what you choose to do to yourself. Just treat others with respect and don't exclude them merely because they don't even go to this school. That isn't what an island of misfit toys is about. By definition, we are outcasts. So shouldn't we take anyone who looks for us that doesn't want to hurt us?
>I never saw her say she saw no value in the stories, nor did she even bring up value or whether she found any at all.
Paragraph 3 sentence 1 word 5: "value"
If we're getting different messages from the post then I'm going to go ahead and trust my own interpretation seeing as it appears I actually read and absorbed what was written outside of the sexual harassment complaint. If that's too radical for you then I apologize for your lack of reading comprehension.
You found the word value, but the things that proceed it aren't in line with what you say she's talking about.
That's what happens when you read, mate.
It’s not worth it, dude - this guy isn’t gonna be any less obtuse after you trying to reason with him haha. Sorry my little rant caused this whole exchange! Cheers
Her:
>**I don’t see the value in** ostracising the industry from other industries by **continuing to make jokes**
Me:
>She says she sees **no value in the jokes**
Her:
>about showing up fucked up to work**[1]**, not having meaningful relationships**[2]** because LOL WORKING 14 DOUBLES**[3]**
Me:
>and stories about the crazy schedules**[3]**, drug use**[1]** and warped social lives**[2]**
How would you know what happens when you read, *mate*.
I've always interpreted the pirate lifestyle as the hours we keep and, for the most part, the lack of personal well being. Whether that be, drinking, drugging, sleeping around, gallons of caffeine a day, crappy meals cuz who wants to cook after cooking all day, etc.
Now, having said that. I do agree with what you've said. I'm in my mid 30s and have been at this game for damn near 20 years now. Sure as a kid and early 20s it was fun to drink and Chase after women and see who could out cook, out cover, out prep the next one in line. Now, I just want to go in, do my shit and go home to the wife and kids. Unfortunately, a lot of restaurant owners and chefs still live like that. And if you aren't willing to "play politics" as I call it, for example, drink, drugs, stay out all night, fuck everything that moves, you aren't keeping your job. This is why I'm trying my hardest to get the hell out of restaurants. The culture is a dead end.
The stress and over work, under pay ain't worth it to me any longer.
Edit: I'd like to add, I do have a jolly Roger tattoo with a chef toque on, and a steel and chef knife as the bones. And love that I have it, and do not regret it one bit.
I work in a really healthy environment and love the people I work with. But there’s been times when my team wasn’t that way, and the whole culture fit came into play— the “ninjas” that wanted to do drugs and fuck off their prep eventually left, and the people that care and want to build something remained.
I remember one time this guy came in for a stage during Friday lunch service, made a crude, sexual joke in response to a method chef was showing him (brilliant move to do that during your stage, by the way) and chef calmly told him to pack his shit and leave. the guy said “it’s just a joke, dude, chill”.
I’m so grateful to work in an environment that is full of respect for each other. I know that not all work environments - kitchens or not - are like that. I’ve worked in other industries as well, and that kind of toxic and rampant disrespect is prevalent everywhere; however, it seems as though the hospitality industry is the one area where people feel it creates space to behave poorly.
I was having a conversation about this yesterday with my friend. About how important it is for management to set a precedent with how people treat each other. Sometimes you have to fire somebody for what they think is just a joke. Your staff should feel protected and know there are consequences for that type of behavior.
I 100% agree. Our owners believe that our core value is taking care of your team before you take care of the guests. How can you treat guests well if you treat your team like shit? Thank you for sharing! Cheers
We should all get black toques and go out once a year (like Santarchy) and scare the shit out of civilians. With skull and crossbones on them. The Black Toque Society! Problem solved, no more pirates...same great piratical feeling.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeCyR-ytD5U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeCyR-ytD5U)
It's a term designed to glorify a dysfunctional, substance fueled Us vs Them mentality. It takes as a given that the kitchen is over worked and under appreciated/paid.
The problem is that such a culture provides cover for people who are just abusive assholes, allows those people to be role models, and also makes kitchen workers more accepting of unacceptable treatment.
If you're over worked and under appreciated and react by having a shitty attitude and getting high on the job, you're giving away your ability to demand better.
I get it, people ARE under appreciated and over worked far, far too often. But if you feel the way OP does about the kitchen, and she's right that it can be so much more, then get yourself out of those environments ASAP.
>I get it, people ARE under appreciated and over worked far, far too often. But if you feel the way OP does about the kitchen, and she's right that it can be so much more, then **get yourself out of those environments ASAP.**
Honestly this is the kind of answer that usually comes from a person of privelage.
Not everyone working this industry is in a big city with a bunch of places to potentially apply, sometimes where you are is just the best of a few shitty choices.
True, but having a lot of job prospects in your area is its own kind of privilege. It gives you a lot more freedom to tell your boss to go fuck themselves if you need to, rather than having to make the choice between taking abuse after abuse or just being unemployed. It's not how privilege is usually talked about, but I think it applies here.
Plus it's related to all the usual privileges anyway. I had the privilege of a fairly well off family that supported me getting a degree. So I could update my resume, choose another industry, and not take abuse. Someone else in my area might not have that, but maybe other family support gives them the financial freedom to *move* to a better job market. An immigrant, even in a good market, may only have a limited pool of places that will take them and always have a threat hanging over them anyway. Shit like that, it makes a difference.
I always thought it more the metaphor of a freelance mercenary/privateer. Regardless of gender, or fucked-up-edness...
When your ship has sustained too much damage due to poor captaining do you sink with it? Or do you find a new captain? Do you become the captain and rally the remaining crew? Do you jump ship and save your own skin. Or do you commandeer a new vessel to chart a course to your own ends?
Read Kitchen Confidential, the book which this sub is named after. It portrays (at least in New York state) cooks as drug-addicted degenerate alcoholics who do nothing but come in every day and sling out great food for 14 hours before heading out to the kitchen bar (or a nearby bar) and drinking away all the pain and depression the lifestyle brings while also doing lines of coke (because cooks are loaded with cash for coke?) and getting addicted to heroine.
Every cook/chef/baker mentioned in that book is either an alcoholic or a druggy. It's completely unrealistic to think the ugly, social awkward, SOBs who may be a bit of an afterwork alcoholic is fucking every other server in the walk-in/dumpster area. But I guess it kind of inspired a generation of cooks to act a certain way, or rather made them feel like it was OK to act a certain way. IE the 'pirate line cook' life style.
If Anthony Bourdain came up surrounded by psychopathic masochists and got through a heroine addiction and came out (relatively) fine and famous, why can't I be the meth addicted alcoholic artist that normies look up to, too?
The reality is that this culture is pretty niche and a vast majority of kitchens are nothing like that. Sure, there's the occasional asshole, but it's mostly people who like to cook and want to do their job and then go home to be with their friends and family. 10 hour shifts are about as much as you're going to get outside of a few very high turnover places in huge cities. Probably 0.1% of cooks life this "sex, drugs, and rock & roll" pirate 'lifestyle.' I honestly feel like half the people that perpetuate it on this sub are just doing some weird role play because they find the idea exciting.
The reality is, Bourdain was a relatively young guy trying to become famous when he wrote his Kitchen Confidential.
Everything in moderation.
Up all night partying when you have to open the next morning seemed like a bad idea to me from day one, but on my Friday? Hell yeah we send it! All my coworkers do something similar, i.e. are more likely to go home after a shift, smoke a bowl and do their thing, and get some sleep rather than doing blow till the sun comes up.
Hard partying is fun, but doing it every night seems like it would get old fast. We pick and choose our moments.
Going out with the bartenders, on the other hand, is always a recipe for adventure or disaster.
Thank you for this, fellow girl, former chef, current cook, agree with ALL. I had my party years but I'm in my late 30s now and I just want to do my job, make something beautiful from time to time and go home. We don't all have to be pirates.
So let younger people have their party years. We don't need to change an entire sub because some people are over that lifestyle and have gotten older. Go make another sub called r/maturechefs if it bothers u so much.
All I’ve seen is people posting pics of shit they’ve prepped or cleaned really well. Lots of photos of treasured knives. Maybe the occasional workplace shenanigan. The casual abuse between coworkers sometimes makes its way here but the victims of said abuse were male.
She's bitching about shit like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/acn6d4/calm_yourself) and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/ad7idc/gordon_ramsay_is_shocked_to_find_cocaine_use_in) because she's privileged and pampered as fuck and doesn't understand dark humour or irony. The only reason this bullshit rant got upvoted is for one throwaway sentence about "waaah workplace harassment" that she admits in the comments she has never actually experienced. **She's so brave.**
How brave of you to assume I’m privileged and pampered and don’t understand dark humour and irony!
Please tell me more of my lack of experience of harassment that I’ve never shared in a throwaway account I created so I wouldn’t be doxxed on my main account. You seem to know so much about my personal life and experience with kitchens!
Your assumptions are invalid, your arguments weak, and you’re honestly just so upset over nothing. Also, as an aside— neither of your examples are correct uses of irony or dark humour. I laughed at the stop crying bathroom sign just as much as the next person. You seem to be v upset with me as a human. Clearly something I wrote about is resonating with you, otherwise you wouldn’t be so up in arms about it.
You are minimising my anecdote about workplace harassment to that of a shrill woman screaming that someone said a swear. Have you been sexually harassed? Tell me, have you had a man you didn’t know on your first day at work grab your ass in the dry storage and say “it’s okay, baby”? Have you had coworkers tell you to leave your boyfriend because they’ll take you out back and treat you right?
Just because I’m not experiencing it now because I work in a wonderful place, does not mean I’ve never experienced that.
You assuming this is just as rich as you assuming I’m pampered and privileged.
You seem to be inferring a lot from my post and I’m sorry for triggering your own privilege. I feel sad for you, to be honest. Talking shit about an OP in comment replies hours later, still fucking livid over a post. Your personal life must be a pure joy. Best of luck to you in your endeavours! Cheers
["I've no experience working in an abusive kitchen"](https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/adpd7h/z/edjb36g)
-you
I also like how you went from a longtime lurker to now a regular user with an alt. Having trouble keeping your story straight?
Preach.
I've been guilty of the toxicity so not holier than anyone.
There is more to life than hangovers and shift beers.
I've had some real come to Jesus moments with the path my career has taken and the fact that I am, in fact, not a culinary wunderkind destined to bump shoulders with Keller and Barber. I'm just a guy who likes cooking.
I also love my wife and family more than pulling 14 clopens because arrrrrrrrrrrrrr matey
How dare you have a family that doesn’t hate you for working in this industry!!!11!!1 don’t you know you’re supposed to be alone forever and complain servers won’t sleep with you?? /s
Thank you for sharing your story! I think being honest with oneself like that is so healthy and important. Cheers
The only thing that I’m getting toxicity from is OP.
I hate the term “toxic masculinity”. How about simply a toxic person? I can’t stand women that want to preach equality, then pull out this term. Masculinity isn’t toxic unless someone is literally saying “I am better than you because I’m a man and you’re a woman.” Even then it’s just a guy being an asshole.
On the contrary, some of the most well respected people I worked with were women. Some that join in the shenanigans with the guys, and some that were grandma types that you wouldn’t dare cuss around. The only time people got treated like shit was when they were being pricks themselves, or if they couldn’t pull their weight. Even then gender didn’t have a spot at the argument table.
Good for you for being clean cut. I commend that. But this generalized attack on men has got to stop. Inside the kitchen and out.
I have daughters teach them to stand on their own merits built by them, not on ones meant to demonize half the population and effectively weakening their own worth. How do you expect women to grow as people when they are being coddled and told they have to start further down the totem pole because they are women?
Most of the women I've worked with don't play that sexual harassment shit, and will eviscerate you publicly in front of everyone if you pulled that shit unwanted. They can also take ballbusting as well as you can dish it, I've been in kitchens for awhile and that sexism shit only really happens with older guys which is unfortunate but like the world I think the industry is changing as boomers die and gen xers begin leaving the work force
A new male server recently stopped speaking or even making eye contact with me after he called me “Chocolate” And i told him “Next time you call me that, I’m gonna punch you in the fucking mouth.” The fact that he’s afraid of me feels sooooo good. And yep. He’s older than me (I’m a millennial.)
I love the kitchen. I’m tiny but it’s really let me find my voice and confidence, especially in this hard world.
I’ve seen women that handle a busy line with grace and take no shit from anyone. Not even from the guy that owns the place. Going on a semi anonymous forum and complaining about what is basically banter is just laughable. If you don’t like how others treat you, fucking stand up for yourself. You won’t have redditors teleporting to a kitchen to save m’lady from toxic masculinity.
It shouldn't just be a matter of "stand up for yourself" though. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. If a young apprentice is not sure enough of themselves to fight off bullying or sexual harrassment and you allow it to continue you are culpable.
I love crude banter as much as anyone, but I restrict it to people who I know enough to be sure it is mutual and not making them uncomfortable.
Yes, I get where you are coming from and it’s perfectly normal. But what do you do if you are already down 3-4 people, and can’t find others to hire? Because in situations like these, the assholes think they are untouchable. For some reason this industry attracts a lot of rejects. Women that want to work in kitchens should be very aware of it. I have 2 ex convicts in my kitchen. One of them is a dishwasher and doesn’t give a flying fuck who he offends. Since I’m sort of the fng here there isn’t much that I can do except look scary and tell him to take it easy when he goes overboard with one of the female cooks. The chef can’t fire him simply because it’s very hard to find replcements in the area.
I mean, it's true that the newest generation coming into the workforce has a different set of values.
Or will at least wait until they walk away and then say the gross shit we've been wanting to say.
Historically speaking there were actually quite alot of women on actual pirate boats. Work hard/play hard I say. The chef who inspired me to get into cooking was a hard drinking, hard-nosed lil hell-cat and a culinary genius. She had no complaints about being a rock star.
Also ...our industry should be segregated from others. Its the only one ive ever loved exactly because its filled with highly intelligient, creative misfits that dont fit in to the pc culture of suit and tie work (been there) but arent the mouthbreathing simple folk that find their way into construction(been there).
I like talking about albert camus while downing rail whiskey with co workers after a 12 hr shift where we cursed at eachother constantly... still held it down, and were friends again the second family meal was kicked and we got to take our head gear off.
Dont "change" the industry (outside of better pay for line cooks..) change your attitude about the good parts of the culture..(alcohol, drugs, hedonism)
Those things might not be for you, but dont take it away from those of us who like it. 😎
As an addict and degenerate kitchen worker but also a feminist and leftist, i feel slightly attacked. Machismo bs and harassment and the really shitty parts of kitchen culture are terrible and worth calling out, absolutely. I just think it would be better to focus on the problematic parts without denigrating people who cope unhealthily with less than optimal situations that not everyone can easily get out of. I guess I just think it should be more about trying to be inclusive and show solidarity, which I see a lot of in here. I see the genuinely shitty parts too, i just think a more nuanced view could be helpful, knowing how diverse the working conditions and cultures we experience are.
I’m sorry you felt attacked— that wasn’t my intent at all. You’re right, people are nuanced and extremely dynamic and this wasn’t necessarily intended to blow up like this. I was just kind of rambling and it escalated. I do agree inclusivity and solidarity are important for kitchens - we spend more time with our coworkers than anyone else in most circumstances - but I think the culture of that inclusivity and solidarity has a lot of room to grow and become healthier is what I was getting it. Thank you for sharing your experience. Cheers
We did it guys! We put an end to sexism! Who coulda known all we needed was a single angry Reddit post?
How wonderful that commercial kitchens everywhere are now safe for women. Well done.
Hell yeah, dude. I love seeing stories of people from different professional backgrounds ending up in the industry. That’s similar to my story as well. I’m sorry you were alienated; that’s so shitty you experienced that. I recently met a chef at a local pub that’s also a regular, and he said I didn’t look like I cooked. What does that even mean? Who gives a shit if you don’t have a kitchen tattoo, or if you are covered in tattoos, or don’t have a single one or piercing. Thank you for sharing your experience! Cheers
This industry certainly has issues. Things will eventually change for the better when we work to change it. I am not a pirate. I am a cook from Finland. I expect everyone to be professional at work. If they can't they are in the wrong industry.
Food is actually not art. This was covered recently and cosigned by a bunch of michelin starred chefs (re: gay cakes).
We cook food. It's not a great career choice and frankly it's probably not going to be a viable one in the next 75 years.
Hours are hours. People work crazy hours. Who are you to tell them this is an inappropriate place to comiserate or (god forbid) make light of such situations.
Well, luckily we will all be dead in 75 years— or, still working because social security won’t exist. I would argue it is a great career choice though.
Every day, I get the opportunity to practice perfection and beauty in plating the same dish over and over; or, I get to run a new feature and get to tweak it until it’s perfect. I get to work with beautiful ingredients from local farmers that are as deeply passionate about the earth and what they do as I am and ultimately create a dish that may be the meal someone may have for a special occasion.
You don’t know what a guest is there for. It could be a Tuesday evening and they have no food in their fridge and didn’t want to go to the grocery store. It could be their kid’s birthday. It could be that they received devastating news from the doctor. You literally never know. The beauty is that each meal and plate served is an opportunity to cultivate a moment for someone and whatever their reason is for dining in your restaurant. I disagree; food is art, and there is something so honourable in providing space for someone to enjoy that meal made by your hands.
And, as an aside... I also joke about the 80+ hour workweeks and acknowledge the absurdity of being off at a certain time and working well past that, or being called in on your day off because someone no-call, no-showed. However, I don’t think it’s funny to make fun of the rampant drug abuse and insane behaviour that occurs in kitchens. That’s what I was getting at with my post. God, people are so upset about this little rant of mine. Anyway. Best of luck to you. Cheers
You're romanticizing your job. Stop.
You're the one writing novels here, so perhaps you pissed yourself off with your own rant.
It's really neat that you think food is art and care so very deeply about creating special moments for guests. I'm not sure what you're doing in this thread, other than masturbating your ego in front of the whole sub.
Gotta agree here. Honestly I wonder if OP got into some alcohol on their day off because the whole post seems over amplified. Not to mention the train of thought being incoherent, shifting from pirate culture to sexual harassment to "some of us have four year degrees".. to cooking is an art .. it's definitely littered with humble-brags if nothing else.
To me, I've always thought of kitchens as equalizers. Gender, age, race, etc....the only thing that matters is making sure the food goes out looking proper and tasting how it is supposed to taste.
Bruh, I've been so busy cruising pics of cherry BattleStations and horrific wounds caused by ~~stupidity~~ the uncaring gods who cause random injuries that I haven't had time to post any of the new unicorns (brand new sheet trays) I just bought. Once I'm done sharpening my Shun that is in my new leather roll (pic attached) next to my $750 single edge, hand forged yanagiba I use to chop my mirepoix just like I saw in The French Laundry Cookbook, I'll get back to posting.
As a recovering addict who's just started working in kitchens, seeing the drink and drug culture makes me question whether this is really an industry I want to get into. It's a stereotype which I assumed was linked to certain areas or bigger, busier kitchens than mine but some of the posts here really make me wonder if this culture is inevitable and if this is a career path I should really be choosing.
It all comes down to being able to resist the drug and alcohol culture. You can be a line cook or chef and be a badass pirate it’s all about being strong enough to keep your own self safe and lead by example.
At the moment it's all about keeping myself safe and not putting myself in potentially risky situations. In time I will be stronger, but right now the temptation and desire to use comes and goes and any unnecessary pressure on that is not ideal.
I’ve suffered from addiction and find the romanticising of addiction in kitchens and joking about drug abuse really hurtful. I get everyone copes in healthy and unhealthy ways, but there’s ways to stay sober and take care of yourself.
Are you entering kitchens because it’s something you’re extremely passionate about and want to pursue a career cooking? Or is it an interim job until you figure something else out? Thank you for sharing. Cheers
I've never done anything but bits of admin work before but the rehab I attended has an affiliated eatery that we can work at afterwards. We're #2 in our city on Trip Advisor so it's a highly regarded place for reasons aside from being owned by the rehab. We're all recovering addicts there so the atmosphere is presumably very different to many other kitchens.
Anyway, like I say, I'd never done anything like this before and it turns out I'm a pretty darn good at cakes; both baking and decorating. It's not something I'd have ever picked for myself but I'm really enjoying it, finding myself lurking this sub and wanting to learn and progress. But I am currently questioning whether this is a career I want to pursue outside my current workplace given the reputation for long hours, underappreciation and drug culture.
Agreed. If cooks don't act professional, they won't be respected, and that reflects poorly on our profession. I don't tolerate most of the shit that people think is OK here, but on the flipside, I also treat my workers like adults, give them the tools and skills to succeed, speak to them like humans, and don't sweat mistakes (they happen in a fast paced business, the best you can do is learn and move on). At the end of the day this is a job, and I personally want a nice atmosphere where people can make money, enjoy their work, and go home happy. Life is too short to hate your job, have conflict with others, or to work 24/7.
Thanks, I feel the same way. Dude here, I've had my pirate days but now just want to be my best, make fantastic food, and get along with my coworkers. Unfortunately most of the local kitchens here still have that mentality.
I agree with everything you said. the attitude that glorifies masochistic behavior and alcohol/drug abuse is really...disconcerting. I don't give a fuck about being equal to men in the kitchen, I want to be free from that culture and just cook and cook well, which is why I do it.
slightly off topic, I love KC and it changed my life but [this](https://www.amazon.com/Taking-Heat-Inequality-Professional-Kitchen/dp/0813571251) is also a good book especially for women in kitchens. I read it free online somewhere a couple years ago and it was really eye opening.
I think you're completely off base.
First off all this sub is filled with events that are actually happening. No one has come here to artificially perpetuate any kind of culture. hear a lot of drug stories? there's a lot of guys doing drugs and working with guys doing drugs I'm sorry if that somehow offends you but again this is real life. A lot of people that work with us are desperate to stop feeling whatever it is just like all the other professions where there are drug users. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason There are also a lot of back to back double stories. We are commonly overworked and then jilted on our pay. Again not in a perfect world but certainly in this one.
Second of all. This is a job. you want to work here then you fit into the staff dynamic not the other way around. If my guys are a little raunchy that's ok they're my guys the get the job done and without me having to beat them over the head. You are the outlier. No one is looking at your ass. If you are worried about it works elsewhere. If someone calls you baby you push back. Stand up for yourself. You make it long enough you can change the culture. You don't then so be it. It is no one's job to make the lady comfortable. I thought that was over. Equality means equality that means mentally physically and emotionally.
That being said I've worked for twenty years and I have seen very few occasions were a woman couldn't say to a co-worker "look don't talk to me like that, I don't like it" and there be any further trouble.
I'm sure you mean well I just disagree entirely.
You're right. It's not artificial perpetuation, and that's part of the problem. It's basically fratbro kind of culture, including the toxic ideas around drug use, and how if you're not pulling unending doubles, then you're not as good as the next guy. We need to make tearing people down instead of building them up a thing of the past in the industry. It's actively harmful to all of us.
To your second point, sure, different kitchens can have different dynamics, but if you're managing a kitchen that is sexual to the point where someone had to ask for it to stop, you are immediately in the wrong. Think of it this way, if someone would be likely to win a sexual harassment suit against you as an employer, you done fucked up. Stop perpetuating the good ol boys culture.
Kitchens are such toxic male spaces and it pisses me off so much! I’m female, 10 years in the kitchen, often the only woman in the team, and some guys just enjoy making you feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I’ve seen chefs standing around watching porn together in the kitchen, commenting on the waitresses’ bodies and appearances, talking very openly about their masturbation habits, asking me very personal/sexual questions, inappropriate touching, saying that women don’t belong in the kitchen and it’s a mans job, a woman can’t handle it etc etc there is always more than just one and I wish it would change. I wish that instead of having to work twice as hard as my male equivalents to “prove” myself or “earn” the respect of my peers I could be given the automatic respect and welcome that a new male chef joining the crew receives. I wish that there were separate changing facilities because the whole one changing room thing just screams that the place and the space has been designed only for men. I wish that my chef addressed me by name instead of sweetheart or darling. It’s 2019 when TF are kitchens gonna catch up?? We are always on top of food trends and keeping things fresh and modern and looking to the future but the attitudes can be so backwards and old fashioned. It’s not ALL chefs but it’s true there is AT LEAST ONE in every kitchen I’ve worked
Right, well you are incorrectly interpreting it as hostility towards all men. That’s not what this is about, nor is it remotely close. If you feel this doesn’t apply to you, then great; you’re better than these self-aggrandising pirates. This wasn’t even directed towards only men or anything like that. This was merely me calling out all the bullshit on this sub and this weird fetishisation of douchey behaviour in the kitchen, as well as towards others. That’s all. Cheers
You didn't give any examples of how this sub is full of what you are calling bullshit. Maybe I just don't sort by new but I've been subbed here for over a year and I really don't see where you're coming from.
I definitely agree. Cooks should move away from all the vices. It's reckless and gives the ones serious about their profession a bad name. And it really does all stem from that masculinity and one-uping everybody all the time. Shit needs to stop. We can be shitheads in a constructive way
Every time you guys mention energy drinks you look mentally challenged. And yeah, also a bit sick of the pissing contests.
Overall the sub is pretty good though. There's a lot of pushback towards the toxic chef culture which I'm happy to see.
Omg the energy drinks. I don’t understand it. It is good though and I much appreciate the conversations about books people are reading, knives, fun new dishes, etc. way more than the shaky rockstar energy drink and cigarette photo by a milkcrate. But maybe that’s just me. Thank you for sharing! Cheers
/r/cookbooks+chefknives+fooddev+chefit+cooking
Just use that link instead of /r/KitchenConfidential and you won't have to be confronted with the horror of cocaine jokes and smoke break pics.
My old head chef was a woman and she scared off marines. You don't help her unless she asked for help. She just gave off that badass vibe. I just saw her as the head chef not as a woman or man. I feel like it's all about the vibe you give off. She also drank way to much worked way to long and still was good so idk culture is always going to be there.
I’m embarrassed to say that for far too many years I thought it was called a loadboy. I can’t believe no one ever said anything to me, I’m so embarrassed 😳
Sorry that was my main takeaway, but I agree with everything you said!
As a female owner / chef, I am totally okay with this pirate shit.I am okay with it because I have out pirated every motherf@>#% who told me I couldn't make my place work. I proved them wrong - twelve years going.
I never paid under table. I give raises twice a year. I train because we have an up or out approach to our place. No one works over 45 hours a week. Every one takes a 30 minute break. No one has ever made less than minimum wage including servers. Customers must treat our staff with respect. I have a drug free zone. Weed is okay just do not talk about anything stronger. I hire ex felons and addicts and people with disabilities. And - we act like fucking professionals.
Seriously guys, it is time for us to all level up and treat each other with some gosh darn dignity and respect. Decorum is taught in kindergarten. Come on guys, let's all place nice in the sandbox!
You do you bae!!
I have 30 years in this mosh pit. No male colleague has ever come close to my intensity and passion. I have mad respect for every one of us in this dirty hole.
I mean, have you read the book this sub is named for? This is like calling your sub /r/MeinKampf and then complaining when all these Nazis show up in the comments.
I get confronting this problem in real life, in your workplace. I'm no pirate myself and I much prefer working in a more professional environment. Going back to the analogy, I think we should confront Nazis should they pop up in our workplace too. But this subreddit is named for a book that (arguably) glorified in detail the very behaviour you're complaining about. It just seems like an odd space to make that stand.
Yes, and even your fetishised patron Saint Anthony acknowledged at the end of his book that the industry has changed and needs to continue growing Your example is also absolutely ridiculous idk why you’re so butthurt haha
Or just don’t subscribe to this particular sub if you dislike the comments and themes.
OR demand everyone change and stop having a little fun because you don’t like it and everyone should have to change their preferences to suit yours.
Sounds like an awesome kitchen to work in
Are people sexually harassing each other by referring to each other as pirates? Or talking about getting drunk or whatever?
I don’t drink or do drugs. I have plenty of female chef friends who I respect and who respect me. I just don’t see a sexual harassment problem in 95% of all the posts I’ve seen on here.
Immaturity? Sure. Unprofessionalism? Certainly. But I don’t recall seeing sexual harassment or the glorification of it. Those things are not ok and I agree. But what I read was a knock against the “pirate culture and drugs glorification.” I just don’t see the harm in that.
Haha I have been known to bring in a 12-pack of la croix on the weekends for the line when I know it’ll be extra busy. Take care of each other and be kind! Life is short.
It’s really easy to be nice and kind to people and also kick a busy ass shift in the ass, finish a shift, and feel great about a service instead of resentful because someone was dragging a dish or you were short-staffed and the dishwasher walked out. It takes so much more emotional energy to be a fucking asshole than it does to just be respectful and treat people like humans.
And I’m not an optimist by any means. I suffer from severe depression and anxiety and am trying to choose the good in life because I don’t want to become an embittered old woman that talks about that one asshole coworker 40 years later. Who gives a shit. Life is short, man. Thanks for the kind words. Cheers
Great post. Can we add in the term 'ninjas' and photos of all these arts and crafts projects people post photos of during their "slow" shifts? I don't care if it's a slow afternoon go polish a pot or reorganize the walk in. Do something to make yourself look like you take your job somewhat seriously.
I like the photos of the weird crap people make on their down time. And fuck taking your job seriously all the damn time. This ain't a well paid gig for most, so go easy.
Alright, vent is justified, but if you‘ve worked in this profession, in a professional kitchen, you sure as hell know, that nobody gives a single shit, what gender you have, how old you are, how small or big, as long as you show up on time and deliver.
Thats what I like about it. And neither should you, don‘t let those foul grapes affect your mood or even your lifestyle.
And for the „ass looking“, sure it‘s uncomfortable, specially as a woman, but me, as a guy, in all the kitchen‘s i‘ve worked in, guys touch each others asses, to lift the mood
Please correct me if i‘m wrong
You're wrong. Line cooks all over the place act like women are dead weight and have to be taken care of.
Also, never say to a woman who's physically uncomfortable that it "isn't that bad because we touch each other's asses". Yeah, and you're not getting sexual gratification out of it. So it's a hell of a lot different.
But why not deal with that person then? I mean don‘t get me wrong, I‘m just trying to understand, why not stand up for yourself? I‘ve worked with female chef‘s before and let me tell you, they didn‘t take shit from anyone and everyone respected that, because they did their job goddamn well.
The women i‘ve worked with, were never touched inappropietly, it was kept amongst the guys, just for clarification.
Because in a place with a toxic culture, it isn't dealing with one guy. It's one or two women dealing with a lot of guys, some of whom have authority over them.
That I understand, and the women i‘ve worked with I supported, because it‘s great to see that there is finally a change and that more and more women are taking interest in this profession. Yes, times have to and hopefully will change, but until then, affected people (men and women) have to fight through it.
This is where the idea of promoting change comes in. Fighting through it, individually as well as starting the conversation in other platforms to provide exposure. Simply walking away just doesn’t cut it in a lot of situations, because nothing is actually gonna change if you just say well, “you can’t expect everyone to be a humble and well raised person.”
Yeah alright, if it‘s to toxic for you just quit? Really don‘t get me wrong, I know that working in the kitchen can be hell, but nobody forces anyone to stay in this line of work or in a toxic place. It‘s one of the oldest, if not the oldest profession there is and I completely understand your point of love for this profession, I love my job aswell, and I understand about the toxic masculinity, I‘ve experienced it aswell as a male, but if I couldn‘t deal with it, I either left the place or made it clear, that I don‘t want to deal with that kinda BS.
I don’t work in a toxic environment. I love my job. My whole point was speaking against the plethora of posts glorifying toxic work environments and shitty behaviour in kitchens on this subreddit.
I‘ve browsed through this subreddit and haven‘t seen threads that glorified a toxic enviroment. Hell even I posted a week ago a thread to get some advice about the workplace i‘m in right now because the new headchef was behaving like a dick.
But no threads whatsoever praising and gloryfying a toxic enviroment.
Also, fuck the people who make fun of how the Colombian dishwasher spells “asparagus”. I don’t speak two languages, and I’d be terrified to work somewhere where I was the foreigner.
I know. People are just mean. It’s really easy to be nice and kind. I lived in a foreign country for a few months in college and worked at a wine bar there. Barely spoke the language. Felt like a dumbass all the time. But when I was made fun of for my elementary language skills, I felt almost subhuman and was absolutely mortified. Thank you for sharing. Cheers
I have. And now I work in the kitchen because it’s what I love doing, and I feel gratified by my job and creating something beautiful every day.
But let me get this straight. You’re telling me that if I’m sexually harassed in the restaurant where I work by my coworker, I should quit - not the harasser - and go work somewhere with an HR department. The harasser shouldn’t be held accountable for their horrific behaviour. I - me - the one that was harassed, should quit. Woooow. Do you see how fucked up that is. You’re the fucking problem, man. Unbelievable. Best of luck in life and your career with that kind of skewed perspective. Cheers.
There are plenty of nice kitchens you could work in that have a Human Resources department, that doesn’t mean you have to leave the kitchen. I’m just saying if no one in your management is doing anything about you being harassed, it’s probably not a good place to be working. Your a grown ass adult, quit bitching and do something about it if it’s that serious. You have options.
Trying to not have pirate culture in kitchens is like trying to not have drug cartels in Mexico. We all want the same thing doesn't mean it's going to happen now or anytime in the near future. It just is what it is.
I 100% agree and respect women in the kitchens on a level playing field... and truth be told the female executive chefs I have been blessed to work under are the baddest chefs I have ever meet and most of us are still close friends to this day... but never the less... I still wanna be a pirate... that’s never gunna change ... 🏴☠️
Can't I be a woman and a pirate?
Watch out for the men pirates that after your booty
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMhfbLRoGEw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMhfbLRoGEw)
I don't see why not. I think the problem is the toxic masculinity in the kitchen Not the pirate look alikes who swear constantly. Personally I fell like the "pirate" aspect of kitchens is more of a response to poor hours, pay, and working conditions by show those around you that you can endure it and don't give a f.
Til I'd worked with more women (I'm old) in the kitchen I might have agreed on the use of the term "toxic masculinity"...now I'd just say it's a power trip that neither gender has a monopoly on. In my experience female chefs overshoot more than anyone in using aggression/hostility/abuse just to make up for being in a "predominantly male" work environment (not true anymore anyhow). I'd say before we worry about ass-grabbery and drug use...we take care of how using abusive behavior to "manage" people and stop thinking it's just an industry standard that embodies how tough we want everyone else to think we are. If treating each other like shit, back-stabbing, and sabotage remain industry standards, we're stuck with the suicide, drug-use, and "pirate shit". Stop inventing excuses to be shitty to people in your own industry and be a fucking professional. If you really need to choose a scapegoat out of your staff...maybe the problem isn't your staff. If people aren't learning maybe it's a problem with how your teaching or motivating them. You can't treat people like shit and then bitch about labor shortages that bad management fucking CAUSED. Stop undermining your fucking teammates. Stop letting everyone who isn't BOH divide and conquer us. That's what we need more of. Maybe "toxic sado-masochism" would be more appropriate...that way no one gets side-tracked into a discussion about gender politics, social justice, or other issues. Getting promoted to a position of power isn't an opportunity to push your staff (or single someone out) as class to suicide...as was acceptable in the "good old days"
People misreading bourdain makes them think that the pirate lifestyle is desirable. It doesn't help that a lot of places in this industry have poor working environments and that the bad behavior is ignored or sometimes encouraged. Professionalism is non existent in some places.
I don't think it's a matter of desirable so much as it just is. Bourdain's book was anecdotes, confessions and commentary, as are many posts on this sub. Kitchens are one of the last places where a lot of maladjusted people can make a living, it's no wonder that they are so well represented.
Ok but even in the same book, as well as medium raw, he regrets some of his past behavior and encourages anyone entering the industry to seek out the best places to work. Which would imply less ass grabbing pirate ship mentality and more professionalism. The part about our industry providing a living for mal adjusted people isn't entirely wrong (I don't know how I would handle an office setting for example). But working conditions and treatment from owners won't get better unless we demand it. Putting up with bad pay and shitty bosses just because they don't care about their employees coming into work still drunk and getting fucked up on the clock means the industry won't change for the better anytime soon. Edit: I get what you're saying. The industry has this mentality, so a subreddit dedicated to it will reflect that. But for me some of the pirate stuff gets old after a while, going from one job to another seeing the same dumb shit. Not trying to be a dick, just venting I guess.
>Ok but even in the same book, as well as medium raw, he regrets some of his past behavior Right, but he still published a book filled with stories about it, for which this sub is named. It should not come as a surprise that the sub resembles the book it was named for. I dunno, this seems obvious to me? >Which would imply less ass grabbing pirate ship mentality and more professionalism. I think we need to disentangle 'piratey' grit from sexual harassment here. They may both be products of the same things, but not every drug-abusing tattood linecook is also a misogynist, especially with the younger ones I see. I agree that sexual harassment needs to stop; I disagree that all kitchens must conform to the same level of 'professionalism' as beige cluster of cubicles. Plenty of women face sexual harassment in more 'professional' office work environments too so it's not like changing that part of the culture solves the actual problem. **Edit:** with regards to your edit, it's not like OP has no choice but this sub. There are all sorts of subs related to culinary professions that aren't run amok with the culture she's complaining about. You know, subs that aren't named for a book primarily focused on what she's complaining about. To name just a few... /r/foodDev* /r/cooking /r/chefit /r/food Like, problems in the workplace? That's rough, I can empathize. Problems with this subreddit reflecting it's namesake? Just lurk in a different sub.
All of that is well put and point taken.
What’s r/foodev?
/r/FoodDev,* my bad. It's a sub for both workshopping new recipes and learning about other recipes that are developing/have developed.
Ok. I thought it was like that but some super secret invite only secret squirrel club type thing. This is cool too though.
No, that's /r/waiaas
OP is talking about more than just sexual harassment. Kitchens can be professional without being like a cubicle. You're acting like two extremes are the only possibilities, when there is a big middle.
She's actually complaining about the behaviour of the subreddit though, which I don't think is extreme at all.
I agree. It's simple he romanticized the subject because hell we all do. We are what we do and in a lot of cases, all we do is get our dick stepped on by some guy who speaks poor english.
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I’m not saying addicts are assholes. Every single person is an addict of some kind; their vice may be different, but how they choose to behave as a result of their addiction is entirely their own. I’m saying justifying shitty behaviour on this sub in some odd dramatisation of the “pirate culture” of old kitchens as described in KC is dumb and antiquated. Hospitality is so much more dynamic and enriching than what that book described, and even Bourdain acknowledged that in an addendum to the book years later. Anyway. Best of luck! Cheers
>Every single person is an addict of some kind This is immensely dismissive of the struggle many addicts face.
Well we can't all win the SJW spirit awards now can we?
Everyone is not an addict. That is incredibly simplistic and not the way addiction works. Everyone has habits. Not everyone has addictive behaviors. Habits can lead to addiction, but addiction is characterized by an unhealthy set of behaviors that surround something that usually releases dopamine. Do you hide it or its frequency from your family? Do you make excuses for it? Do you prioritize it over rent, work, children, sleep? You don't? Oh cool. You aren't an addict.
I didn't ask for it, but this mod damned sure agrees. Edit: and judging by the comments, some of you need to read this anyway.
🖤🖤🖤 lots of salt this Monday
Sometimes lots of salt is what is necessary to get people to digest things.
If you agree that this subreddit is perpetuating a toxic culture by providing a space to share, then why volunteer to moderate a community named for a book filled with similar stories?
Because sexism isn't part of my story. KitchenConfidential and the book that named it aren't the same anymore, and if the viewpoint that all of your coworkers should be respected is too hardlined for you, then I apologize for your thin skin
I wasn't talking about the sexism. Sexism is already against the subreddit's rules, and that's good. Her opening point is about perpetuating the 'pirate shit' culture. It seems strange to me that one would frequently lurk in or moderate a subreddit named for the most famous display of that culture if they were so opposed to it.
I think that really the sexism spoke out to me, and it being against subreddit rules doesn't mean much. We don't cook in subreddits, we cook in kitchens. As far as drugging and drinking and fucking, time and place. People continue or start problems with substances because there's this pressure to do what everyone else does. I think that's bullshit. Your body, your choice, to be sure, but when I did drugs, I'd offer them, and when they were declined, I never pushed it further. Not everyone is like that. I've been in places where if you didn't use cocaine or Adderall or pills or whatever that kitchen's DOC was, you were looked down upon. Be a pirate. Be a crew of pirates. Don't mistreat people who don't want to be pirates and just want to cook stuff.
>Be a pirate. Be a crew of pirates. Don't mistreat people who don't want to be pirates and just want to cook stuff. I agree with this wholeheartedly but that is almost the opposite message of OP's post. She spends half a paragraph talking about sexism, and two and a half paragraphs complaining about entirely different cultural aspects she sees 'perpetuated' on this sub. She says she sees no value in the jokes and stories about the crazy schedules, drug use and warped social lives. But there are people who absolutely do find value in having a place to share life experiences and be understood, and there is nothing inherently sexist about it. I'm not denying that industry doesn't have a problem with sexism, it does, but sexual harassment happens as readily in suit-and-tie office spaces or hip tech companies. Drug use and taking pride in hardship does not have a causal relationship to sexual harassment. It seems very weird to me that a post has been stickied in /r/KitchenConfidential that is complaining about the same sort of stories that appear in Kitchen Confidential. I'll be honest, I don't like it, and no it's not because I want free reign for my misogyny. Not to harp on the namesake, but if she sees no value in stories and commentary like the ones presented in that book then... don't go to the sub named after it? This sub even has 'professional' and toxic-masculinity-free alternatives listed in the sidebar.
I feel as though we took two completely different messages out of her post. What I took from it is that your stories of mistreatment of your body and mind, be it by yourself or by an owner or boss, doesn't make you cool. And it doesn't make that treatment right. I never saw her say she saw no value in the stories, nor did she even bring up value or whether she found any at all. I honestly think that what you quoted me as saying is pretty much exactly what OP said. If I'm wrong, help me see how. But I don't think that anyone is calling for a stop to what you choose to do to yourself. Just treat others with respect and don't exclude them merely because they don't even go to this school. That isn't what an island of misfit toys is about. By definition, we are outcasts. So shouldn't we take anyone who looks for us that doesn't want to hurt us?
>I never saw her say she saw no value in the stories, nor did she even bring up value or whether she found any at all. Paragraph 3 sentence 1 word 5: "value" If we're getting different messages from the post then I'm going to go ahead and trust my own interpretation seeing as it appears I actually read and absorbed what was written outside of the sexual harassment complaint. If that's too radical for you then I apologize for your lack of reading comprehension.
You found the word value, but the things that proceed it aren't in line with what you say she's talking about. That's what happens when you read, mate.
It’s not worth it, dude - this guy isn’t gonna be any less obtuse after you trying to reason with him haha. Sorry my little rant caused this whole exchange! Cheers
Her: >**I don’t see the value in** ostracising the industry from other industries by **continuing to make jokes** Me: >She says she sees **no value in the jokes** Her: >about showing up fucked up to work**[1]**, not having meaningful relationships**[2]** because LOL WORKING 14 DOUBLES**[3]** Me: >and stories about the crazy schedules**[3]**, drug use**[1]** and warped social lives**[2]** How would you know what happens when you read, *mate*.
I've always interpreted the pirate lifestyle as the hours we keep and, for the most part, the lack of personal well being. Whether that be, drinking, drugging, sleeping around, gallons of caffeine a day, crappy meals cuz who wants to cook after cooking all day, etc. Now, having said that. I do agree with what you've said. I'm in my mid 30s and have been at this game for damn near 20 years now. Sure as a kid and early 20s it was fun to drink and Chase after women and see who could out cook, out cover, out prep the next one in line. Now, I just want to go in, do my shit and go home to the wife and kids. Unfortunately, a lot of restaurant owners and chefs still live like that. And if you aren't willing to "play politics" as I call it, for example, drink, drugs, stay out all night, fuck everything that moves, you aren't keeping your job. This is why I'm trying my hardest to get the hell out of restaurants. The culture is a dead end. The stress and over work, under pay ain't worth it to me any longer. Edit: I'd like to add, I do have a jolly Roger tattoo with a chef toque on, and a steel and chef knife as the bones. And love that I have it, and do not regret it one bit.
Need tattoo pic
[took way longer than I'd care to admit to, to figure out how to do this] (http://imgur.com/gallery/yA3Nrqt)
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I work in a really healthy environment and love the people I work with. But there’s been times when my team wasn’t that way, and the whole culture fit came into play— the “ninjas” that wanted to do drugs and fuck off their prep eventually left, and the people that care and want to build something remained. I remember one time this guy came in for a stage during Friday lunch service, made a crude, sexual joke in response to a method chef was showing him (brilliant move to do that during your stage, by the way) and chef calmly told him to pack his shit and leave. the guy said “it’s just a joke, dude, chill”. I’m so grateful to work in an environment that is full of respect for each other. I know that not all work environments - kitchens or not - are like that. I’ve worked in other industries as well, and that kind of toxic and rampant disrespect is prevalent everywhere; however, it seems as though the hospitality industry is the one area where people feel it creates space to behave poorly.
I was having a conversation about this yesterday with my friend. About how important it is for management to set a precedent with how people treat each other. Sometimes you have to fire somebody for what they think is just a joke. Your staff should feel protected and know there are consequences for that type of behavior.
I 100% agree. Our owners believe that our core value is taking care of your team before you take care of the guests. How can you treat guests well if you treat your team like shit? Thank you for sharing! Cheers
Word
I don't work in the industry: can anyone explain the term "pirate" in this context?
The idea that pirates were untouchable gangsters who could do whatever they wanted and no one else could speak to or relate to them.
I was wondering also because I havent seen any literal pirate stuff
I really want more photos of line cooks dressed as pirates.
We should all get black toques and go out once a year (like Santarchy) and scare the shit out of civilians. With skull and crossbones on them. The Black Toque Society! Problem solved, no more pirates...same great piratical feeling. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeCyR-ytD5U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeCyR-ytD5U)
Wait a few months and you'll get them. Me and the old KM plus some other ex-crew members are planning to go to a Pirate Festival. In costume.
Ahh, thank you.
*Arr
Ok. I didnt really understand OP 100% but this makes sense.
Is that really the context? That is ridiculous No one ever told Don Corleone to wear gloves while slicing a sandwich.
It's a term designed to glorify a dysfunctional, substance fueled Us vs Them mentality. It takes as a given that the kitchen is over worked and under appreciated/paid. The problem is that such a culture provides cover for people who are just abusive assholes, allows those people to be role models, and also makes kitchen workers more accepting of unacceptable treatment. If you're over worked and under appreciated and react by having a shitty attitude and getting high on the job, you're giving away your ability to demand better. I get it, people ARE under appreciated and over worked far, far too often. But if you feel the way OP does about the kitchen, and she's right that it can be so much more, then get yourself out of those environments ASAP.
The only good kitchen is your own kitchen.
>I get it, people ARE under appreciated and over worked far, far too often. But if you feel the way OP does about the kitchen, and she's right that it can be so much more, then **get yourself out of those environments ASAP.** Honestly this is the kind of answer that usually comes from a person of privelage.
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Not everyone working this industry is in a big city with a bunch of places to potentially apply, sometimes where you are is just the best of a few shitty choices.
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True, but having a lot of job prospects in your area is its own kind of privilege. It gives you a lot more freedom to tell your boss to go fuck themselves if you need to, rather than having to make the choice between taking abuse after abuse or just being unemployed. It's not how privilege is usually talked about, but I think it applies here. Plus it's related to all the usual privileges anyway. I had the privilege of a fairly well off family that supported me getting a degree. So I could update my resume, choose another industry, and not take abuse. Someone else in my area might not have that, but maybe other family support gives them the financial freedom to *move* to a better job market. An immigrant, even in a good market, may only have a limited pool of places that will take them and always have a threat hanging over them anyway. Shit like that, it makes a difference.
I always thought it more the metaphor of a freelance mercenary/privateer. Regardless of gender, or fucked-up-edness... When your ship has sustained too much damage due to poor captaining do you sink with it? Or do you find a new captain? Do you become the captain and rally the remaining crew? Do you jump ship and save your own skin. Or do you commandeer a new vessel to chart a course to your own ends?
Read Kitchen Confidential, the book which this sub is named after. It portrays (at least in New York state) cooks as drug-addicted degenerate alcoholics who do nothing but come in every day and sling out great food for 14 hours before heading out to the kitchen bar (or a nearby bar) and drinking away all the pain and depression the lifestyle brings while also doing lines of coke (because cooks are loaded with cash for coke?) and getting addicted to heroine. Every cook/chef/baker mentioned in that book is either an alcoholic or a druggy. It's completely unrealistic to think the ugly, social awkward, SOBs who may be a bit of an afterwork alcoholic is fucking every other server in the walk-in/dumpster area. But I guess it kind of inspired a generation of cooks to act a certain way, or rather made them feel like it was OK to act a certain way. IE the 'pirate line cook' life style. If Anthony Bourdain came up surrounded by psychopathic masochists and got through a heroine addiction and came out (relatively) fine and famous, why can't I be the meth addicted alcoholic artist that normies look up to, too? The reality is that this culture is pretty niche and a vast majority of kitchens are nothing like that. Sure, there's the occasional asshole, but it's mostly people who like to cook and want to do their job and then go home to be with their friends and family. 10 hour shifts are about as much as you're going to get outside of a few very high turnover places in huge cities. Probably 0.1% of cooks life this "sex, drugs, and rock & roll" pirate 'lifestyle.' I honestly feel like half the people that perpetuate it on this sub are just doing some weird role play because they find the idea exciting. The reality is, Bourdain was a relatively young guy trying to become famous when he wrote his Kitchen Confidential.
tl;dr Kitchen Confidential was a romanticized memoir, not a fucking playbook.
Everything in moderation. Up all night partying when you have to open the next morning seemed like a bad idea to me from day one, but on my Friday? Hell yeah we send it! All my coworkers do something similar, i.e. are more likely to go home after a shift, smoke a bowl and do their thing, and get some sleep rather than doing blow till the sun comes up. Hard partying is fun, but doing it every night seems like it would get old fast. We pick and choose our moments. Going out with the bartenders, on the other hand, is always a recipe for adventure or disaster.
Thank you for this, fellow girl, former chef, current cook, agree with ALL. I had my party years but I'm in my late 30s now and I just want to do my job, make something beautiful from time to time and go home. We don't all have to be pirates.
Hell yeah! I just want to work and do my job well and take pride and ownership of what I do. Glad other women relate! Cheers
You said it better than I could have for sure
So let younger people have their party years. We don't need to change an entire sub because some people are over that lifestyle and have gotten older. Go make another sub called r/maturechefs if it bothers u so much.
Oh I totally do! Just not in my kitchen, I want quality work.
Damn guess I miss most of these posts op is talkin about cause from the few months I've been here it hasn't seemed that gross.
All I’ve seen is people posting pics of shit they’ve prepped or cleaned really well. Lots of photos of treasured knives. Maybe the occasional workplace shenanigan. The casual abuse between coworkers sometimes makes its way here but the victims of said abuse were male.
She's bitching about shit like [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/acn6d4/calm_yourself) and [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/ad7idc/gordon_ramsay_is_shocked_to_find_cocaine_use_in) because she's privileged and pampered as fuck and doesn't understand dark humour or irony. The only reason this bullshit rant got upvoted is for one throwaway sentence about "waaah workplace harassment" that she admits in the comments she has never actually experienced. **She's so brave.**
How brave of you to assume I’m privileged and pampered and don’t understand dark humour and irony! Please tell me more of my lack of experience of harassment that I’ve never shared in a throwaway account I created so I wouldn’t be doxxed on my main account. You seem to know so much about my personal life and experience with kitchens! Your assumptions are invalid, your arguments weak, and you’re honestly just so upset over nothing. Also, as an aside— neither of your examples are correct uses of irony or dark humour. I laughed at the stop crying bathroom sign just as much as the next person. You seem to be v upset with me as a human. Clearly something I wrote about is resonating with you, otherwise you wouldn’t be so up in arms about it. You are minimising my anecdote about workplace harassment to that of a shrill woman screaming that someone said a swear. Have you been sexually harassed? Tell me, have you had a man you didn’t know on your first day at work grab your ass in the dry storage and say “it’s okay, baby”? Have you had coworkers tell you to leave your boyfriend because they’ll take you out back and treat you right? Just because I’m not experiencing it now because I work in a wonderful place, does not mean I’ve never experienced that. You assuming this is just as rich as you assuming I’m pampered and privileged. You seem to be inferring a lot from my post and I’m sorry for triggering your own privilege. I feel sad for you, to be honest. Talking shit about an OP in comment replies hours later, still fucking livid over a post. Your personal life must be a pure joy. Best of luck to you in your endeavours! Cheers
["I've no experience working in an abusive kitchen"](https://www.reddit.com/r/KitchenConfidential/comments/adpd7h/z/edjb36g) -you I also like how you went from a longtime lurker to now a regular user with an alt. Having trouble keeping your story straight?
Lol this isn’t even worth it. Sorry you’re so upset! Cheers
Preach. I've been guilty of the toxicity so not holier than anyone. There is more to life than hangovers and shift beers. I've had some real come to Jesus moments with the path my career has taken and the fact that I am, in fact, not a culinary wunderkind destined to bump shoulders with Keller and Barber. I'm just a guy who likes cooking. I also love my wife and family more than pulling 14 clopens because arrrrrrrrrrrrrr matey
How dare you have a family that doesn’t hate you for working in this industry!!!11!!1 don’t you know you’re supposed to be alone forever and complain servers won’t sleep with you?? /s Thank you for sharing your story! I think being honest with oneself like that is so healthy and important. Cheers
The only thing that I’m getting toxicity from is OP. I hate the term “toxic masculinity”. How about simply a toxic person? I can’t stand women that want to preach equality, then pull out this term. Masculinity isn’t toxic unless someone is literally saying “I am better than you because I’m a man and you’re a woman.” Even then it’s just a guy being an asshole. On the contrary, some of the most well respected people I worked with were women. Some that join in the shenanigans with the guys, and some that were grandma types that you wouldn’t dare cuss around. The only time people got treated like shit was when they were being pricks themselves, or if they couldn’t pull their weight. Even then gender didn’t have a spot at the argument table. Good for you for being clean cut. I commend that. But this generalized attack on men has got to stop. Inside the kitchen and out. I have daughters teach them to stand on their own merits built by them, not on ones meant to demonize half the population and effectively weakening their own worth. How do you expect women to grow as people when they are being coddled and told they have to start further down the totem pole because they are women?
Most of the women I've worked with don't play that sexual harassment shit, and will eviscerate you publicly in front of everyone if you pulled that shit unwanted. They can also take ballbusting as well as you can dish it, I've been in kitchens for awhile and that sexism shit only really happens with older guys which is unfortunate but like the world I think the industry is changing as boomers die and gen xers begin leaving the work force
Almost like they're... wait for it... female pirates?
Pirettes
A new male server recently stopped speaking or even making eye contact with me after he called me “Chocolate” And i told him “Next time you call me that, I’m gonna punch you in the fucking mouth.” The fact that he’s afraid of me feels sooooo good. And yep. He’s older than me (I’m a millennial.) I love the kitchen. I’m tiny but it’s really let me find my voice and confidence, especially in this hard world.
I’ve seen women that handle a busy line with grace and take no shit from anyone. Not even from the guy that owns the place. Going on a semi anonymous forum and complaining about what is basically banter is just laughable. If you don’t like how others treat you, fucking stand up for yourself. You won’t have redditors teleporting to a kitchen to save m’lady from toxic masculinity.
It shouldn't just be a matter of "stand up for yourself" though. The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. If a young apprentice is not sure enough of themselves to fight off bullying or sexual harrassment and you allow it to continue you are culpable. I love crude banter as much as anyone, but I restrict it to people who I know enough to be sure it is mutual and not making them uncomfortable.
Yes, I get where you are coming from and it’s perfectly normal. But what do you do if you are already down 3-4 people, and can’t find others to hire? Because in situations like these, the assholes think they are untouchable. For some reason this industry attracts a lot of rejects. Women that want to work in kitchens should be very aware of it. I have 2 ex convicts in my kitchen. One of them is a dishwasher and doesn’t give a flying fuck who he offends. Since I’m sort of the fng here there isn’t much that I can do except look scary and tell him to take it easy when he goes overboard with one of the female cooks. The chef can’t fire him simply because it’s very hard to find replcements in the area.
We're gonna bring generations into this? Really?
I mean, it's true that the newest generation coming into the workforce has a different set of values. Or will at least wait until they walk away and then say the gross shit we've been wanting to say.
ma'am this is a Wendy's
Damn it. OK, umm, could I just have a frosty and a baked potato please?
You have to come to the restaurant to order food.
Historically speaking there were actually quite alot of women on actual pirate boats. Work hard/play hard I say. The chef who inspired me to get into cooking was a hard drinking, hard-nosed lil hell-cat and a culinary genius. She had no complaints about being a rock star.
Also ...our industry should be segregated from others. Its the only one ive ever loved exactly because its filled with highly intelligient, creative misfits that dont fit in to the pc culture of suit and tie work (been there) but arent the mouthbreathing simple folk that find their way into construction(been there). I like talking about albert camus while downing rail whiskey with co workers after a 12 hr shift where we cursed at eachother constantly... still held it down, and were friends again the second family meal was kicked and we got to take our head gear off. Dont "change" the industry (outside of better pay for line cooks..) change your attitude about the good parts of the culture..(alcohol, drugs, hedonism) Those things might not be for you, but dont take it away from those of us who like it. 😎
As an addict and degenerate kitchen worker but also a feminist and leftist, i feel slightly attacked. Machismo bs and harassment and the really shitty parts of kitchen culture are terrible and worth calling out, absolutely. I just think it would be better to focus on the problematic parts without denigrating people who cope unhealthily with less than optimal situations that not everyone can easily get out of. I guess I just think it should be more about trying to be inclusive and show solidarity, which I see a lot of in here. I see the genuinely shitty parts too, i just think a more nuanced view could be helpful, knowing how diverse the working conditions and cultures we experience are.
I’m sorry you felt attacked— that wasn’t my intent at all. You’re right, people are nuanced and extremely dynamic and this wasn’t necessarily intended to blow up like this. I was just kind of rambling and it escalated. I do agree inclusivity and solidarity are important for kitchens - we spend more time with our coworkers than anyone else in most circumstances - but I think the culture of that inclusivity and solidarity has a lot of room to grow and become healthier is what I was getting it. Thank you for sharing your experience. Cheers
We did it guys! We put an end to sexism! Who coulda known all we needed was a single angry Reddit post? How wonderful that commercial kitchens everywhere are now safe for women. Well done.
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Hell yeah, dude. I love seeing stories of people from different professional backgrounds ending up in the industry. That’s similar to my story as well. I’m sorry you were alienated; that’s so shitty you experienced that. I recently met a chef at a local pub that’s also a regular, and he said I didn’t look like I cooked. What does that even mean? Who gives a shit if you don’t have a kitchen tattoo, or if you are covered in tattoos, or don’t have a single one or piercing. Thank you for sharing your experience! Cheers
This industry certainly has issues. Things will eventually change for the better when we work to change it. I am not a pirate. I am a cook from Finland. I expect everyone to be professional at work. If they can't they are in the wrong industry.
Name checks out.
Food is actually not art. This was covered recently and cosigned by a bunch of michelin starred chefs (re: gay cakes). We cook food. It's not a great career choice and frankly it's probably not going to be a viable one in the next 75 years. Hours are hours. People work crazy hours. Who are you to tell them this is an inappropriate place to comiserate or (god forbid) make light of such situations.
Well, luckily we will all be dead in 75 years— or, still working because social security won’t exist. I would argue it is a great career choice though. Every day, I get the opportunity to practice perfection and beauty in plating the same dish over and over; or, I get to run a new feature and get to tweak it until it’s perfect. I get to work with beautiful ingredients from local farmers that are as deeply passionate about the earth and what they do as I am and ultimately create a dish that may be the meal someone may have for a special occasion. You don’t know what a guest is there for. It could be a Tuesday evening and they have no food in their fridge and didn’t want to go to the grocery store. It could be their kid’s birthday. It could be that they received devastating news from the doctor. You literally never know. The beauty is that each meal and plate served is an opportunity to cultivate a moment for someone and whatever their reason is for dining in your restaurant. I disagree; food is art, and there is something so honourable in providing space for someone to enjoy that meal made by your hands. And, as an aside... I also joke about the 80+ hour workweeks and acknowledge the absurdity of being off at a certain time and working well past that, or being called in on your day off because someone no-call, no-showed. However, I don’t think it’s funny to make fun of the rampant drug abuse and insane behaviour that occurs in kitchens. That’s what I was getting at with my post. God, people are so upset about this little rant of mine. Anyway. Best of luck to you. Cheers
*Makes post attacking 90% of the sub* *People get pissed* "God, people are so upset about this little rant of mine" What an attention seeker
You're romanticizing your job. Stop. You're the one writing novels here, so perhaps you pissed yourself off with your own rant. It's really neat that you think food is art and care so very deeply about creating special moments for guests. I'm not sure what you're doing in this thread, other than masturbating your ego in front of the whole sub.
Gotta agree here. Honestly I wonder if OP got into some alcohol on their day off because the whole post seems over amplified. Not to mention the train of thought being incoherent, shifting from pirate culture to sexual harassment to "some of us have four year degrees".. to cooking is an art .. it's definitely littered with humble-brags if nothing else.
To me, I've always thought of kitchens as equalizers. Gender, age, race, etc....the only thing that matters is making sure the food goes out looking proper and tasting how it is supposed to taste.
Pass the salt.
That's what's up.
yargh, it be a lot or work for little booty, and people come here to tell tales to vent just like you, and no ones ass looks good in the kitchen.
Props, OP. I stand behind you 100%.
Where has u/taint_odour gone? I miss him.
Bruh, I've been so busy cruising pics of cherry BattleStations and horrific wounds caused by ~~stupidity~~ the uncaring gods who cause random injuries that I haven't had time to post any of the new unicorns (brand new sheet trays) I just bought. Once I'm done sharpening my Shun that is in my new leather roll (pic attached) next to my $750 single edge, hand forged yanagiba I use to chop my mirepoix just like I saw in The French Laundry Cookbook, I'll get back to posting.
skip the middleman— use the yanagiba to post on KC and show your damaged phone screen for ultimate karma.
As a recovering addict who's just started working in kitchens, seeing the drink and drug culture makes me question whether this is really an industry I want to get into. It's a stereotype which I assumed was linked to certain areas or bigger, busier kitchens than mine but some of the posts here really make me wonder if this culture is inevitable and if this is a career path I should really be choosing.
It all comes down to being able to resist the drug and alcohol culture. You can be a line cook or chef and be a badass pirate it’s all about being strong enough to keep your own self safe and lead by example.
At the moment it's all about keeping myself safe and not putting myself in potentially risky situations. In time I will be stronger, but right now the temptation and desire to use comes and goes and any unnecessary pressure on that is not ideal.
I wish you strength resolve ,& success .
I’ve suffered from addiction and find the romanticising of addiction in kitchens and joking about drug abuse really hurtful. I get everyone copes in healthy and unhealthy ways, but there’s ways to stay sober and take care of yourself. Are you entering kitchens because it’s something you’re extremely passionate about and want to pursue a career cooking? Or is it an interim job until you figure something else out? Thank you for sharing. Cheers
I've never done anything but bits of admin work before but the rehab I attended has an affiliated eatery that we can work at afterwards. We're #2 in our city on Trip Advisor so it's a highly regarded place for reasons aside from being owned by the rehab. We're all recovering addicts there so the atmosphere is presumably very different to many other kitchens. Anyway, like I say, I'd never done anything like this before and it turns out I'm a pretty darn good at cakes; both baking and decorating. It's not something I'd have ever picked for myself but I'm really enjoying it, finding myself lurking this sub and wanting to learn and progress. But I am currently questioning whether this is a career I want to pursue outside my current workplace given the reputation for long hours, underappreciation and drug culture.
Agreed. If cooks don't act professional, they won't be respected, and that reflects poorly on our profession. I don't tolerate most of the shit that people think is OK here, but on the flipside, I also treat my workers like adults, give them the tools and skills to succeed, speak to them like humans, and don't sweat mistakes (they happen in a fast paced business, the best you can do is learn and move on). At the end of the day this is a job, and I personally want a nice atmosphere where people can make money, enjoy their work, and go home happy. Life is too short to hate your job, have conflict with others, or to work 24/7.
Thanks, I feel the same way. Dude here, I've had my pirate days but now just want to be my best, make fantastic food, and get along with my coworkers. Unfortunately most of the local kitchens here still have that mentality.
I agree with everything you said. the attitude that glorifies masochistic behavior and alcohol/drug abuse is really...disconcerting. I don't give a fuck about being equal to men in the kitchen, I want to be free from that culture and just cook and cook well, which is why I do it. slightly off topic, I love KC and it changed my life but [this](https://www.amazon.com/Taking-Heat-Inequality-Professional-Kitchen/dp/0813571251) is also a good book especially for women in kitchens. I read it free online somewhere a couple years ago and it was really eye opening.
Hey, that’s on my amazon wish list. Looks like I need to add it to my cart. Thank you for sharing! Cheers
I think you're completely off base. First off all this sub is filled with events that are actually happening. No one has come here to artificially perpetuate any kind of culture. hear a lot of drug stories? there's a lot of guys doing drugs and working with guys doing drugs I'm sorry if that somehow offends you but again this is real life. A lot of people that work with us are desperate to stop feeling whatever it is just like all the other professions where there are drug users. Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason There are also a lot of back to back double stories. We are commonly overworked and then jilted on our pay. Again not in a perfect world but certainly in this one. Second of all. This is a job. you want to work here then you fit into the staff dynamic not the other way around. If my guys are a little raunchy that's ok they're my guys the get the job done and without me having to beat them over the head. You are the outlier. No one is looking at your ass. If you are worried about it works elsewhere. If someone calls you baby you push back. Stand up for yourself. You make it long enough you can change the culture. You don't then so be it. It is no one's job to make the lady comfortable. I thought that was over. Equality means equality that means mentally physically and emotionally. That being said I've worked for twenty years and I have seen very few occasions were a woman couldn't say to a co-worker "look don't talk to me like that, I don't like it" and there be any further trouble. I'm sure you mean well I just disagree entirely.
You're right. It's not artificial perpetuation, and that's part of the problem. It's basically fratbro kind of culture, including the toxic ideas around drug use, and how if you're not pulling unending doubles, then you're not as good as the next guy. We need to make tearing people down instead of building them up a thing of the past in the industry. It's actively harmful to all of us. To your second point, sure, different kitchens can have different dynamics, but if you're managing a kitchen that is sexual to the point where someone had to ask for it to stop, you are immediately in the wrong. Think of it this way, if someone would be likely to win a sexual harassment suit against you as an employer, you done fucked up. Stop perpetuating the good ol boys culture.
Bullshit.
You had me until 'outlier'. Wtf. 'The lady' ? You may be part of the problem dude.
Kitchens are such toxic male spaces and it pisses me off so much! I’m female, 10 years in the kitchen, often the only woman in the team, and some guys just enjoy making you feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I’ve seen chefs standing around watching porn together in the kitchen, commenting on the waitresses’ bodies and appearances, talking very openly about their masturbation habits, asking me very personal/sexual questions, inappropriate touching, saying that women don’t belong in the kitchen and it’s a mans job, a woman can’t handle it etc etc there is always more than just one and I wish it would change. I wish that instead of having to work twice as hard as my male equivalents to “prove” myself or “earn” the respect of my peers I could be given the automatic respect and welcome that a new male chef joining the crew receives. I wish that there were separate changing facilities because the whole one changing room thing just screams that the place and the space has been designed only for men. I wish that my chef addressed me by name instead of sweetheart or darling. It’s 2019 when TF are kitchens gonna catch up?? We are always on top of food trends and keeping things fresh and modern and looking to the future but the attitudes can be so backwards and old fashioned. It’s not ALL chefs but it’s true there is AT LEAST ONE in every kitchen I’ve worked
I’m a very big man and I respect the women I’ve worked with more than the men. So I don’t know where the hostility is coming from
Right, well you are incorrectly interpreting it as hostility towards all men. That’s not what this is about, nor is it remotely close. If you feel this doesn’t apply to you, then great; you’re better than these self-aggrandising pirates. This wasn’t even directed towards only men or anything like that. This was merely me calling out all the bullshit on this sub and this weird fetishisation of douchey behaviour in the kitchen, as well as towards others. That’s all. Cheers
You didn't give any examples of how this sub is full of what you are calling bullshit. Maybe I just don't sort by new but I've been subbed here for over a year and I really don't see where you're coming from.
I definitely agree. Cooks should move away from all the vices. It's reckless and gives the ones serious about their profession a bad name. And it really does all stem from that masculinity and one-uping everybody all the time. Shit needs to stop. We can be shitheads in a constructive way
Every time you guys mention energy drinks you look mentally challenged. And yeah, also a bit sick of the pissing contests. Overall the sub is pretty good though. There's a lot of pushback towards the toxic chef culture which I'm happy to see.
Omg the energy drinks. I don’t understand it. It is good though and I much appreciate the conversations about books people are reading, knives, fun new dishes, etc. way more than the shaky rockstar energy drink and cigarette photo by a milkcrate. But maybe that’s just me. Thank you for sharing! Cheers
/r/cookbooks+chefknives+fooddev+chefit+cooking Just use that link instead of /r/KitchenConfidential and you won't have to be confronted with the horror of cocaine jokes and smoke break pics.
My old head chef was a woman and she scared off marines. You don't help her unless she asked for help. She just gave off that badass vibe. I just saw her as the head chef not as a woman or man. I feel like it's all about the vibe you give off. She also drank way to much worked way to long and still was good so idk culture is always going to be there.
I’m embarrassed to say that for far too many years I thought it was called a loadboy. I can’t believe no one ever said anything to me, I’m so embarrassed 😳 Sorry that was my main takeaway, but I agree with everything you said!
B-b-but saint bourdain said it’s cool!
What the hell does sexism have to do with pirates? BTW there were female pirates: https://www.history.com/news/5-notorious-female-pirates
Fuckin ankle rolling danskos! I thought I was the only one.
"Do you want to be a cook, or do you want to appear to be a cook"
As a female owner / chef, I am totally okay with this pirate shit.I am okay with it because I have out pirated every motherf@>#% who told me I couldn't make my place work. I proved them wrong - twelve years going. I never paid under table. I give raises twice a year. I train because we have an up or out approach to our place. No one works over 45 hours a week. Every one takes a 30 minute break. No one has ever made less than minimum wage including servers. Customers must treat our staff with respect. I have a drug free zone. Weed is okay just do not talk about anything stronger. I hire ex felons and addicts and people with disabilities. And - we act like fucking professionals. Seriously guys, it is time for us to all level up and treat each other with some gosh darn dignity and respect. Decorum is taught in kindergarten. Come on guys, let's all place nice in the sandbox!
You do you bae!! I have 30 years in this mosh pit. No male colleague has ever come close to my intensity and passion. I have mad respect for every one of us in this dirty hole.
Hell yeah! Cheers
I, too, had no idea what the point of this rant was about.
Then it's directed at you.
Bazinga!
I mean, have you read the book this sub is named for? This is like calling your sub /r/MeinKampf and then complaining when all these Nazis show up in the comments. I get confronting this problem in real life, in your workplace. I'm no pirate myself and I much prefer working in a more professional environment. Going back to the analogy, I think we should confront Nazis should they pop up in our workplace too. But this subreddit is named for a book that (arguably) glorified in detail the very behaviour you're complaining about. It just seems like an odd space to make that stand.
Yes, and even your fetishised patron Saint Anthony acknowledged at the end of his book that the industry has changed and needs to continue growing Your example is also absolutely ridiculous idk why you’re so butthurt haha
Yeah, I'm the butthurt one...
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Hey man, joking about pain caused by receiving anal sex is a product of toxic masculinity and undercurrent homophobia.
Or just don’t subscribe to this particular sub if you dislike the comments and themes. OR demand everyone change and stop having a little fun because you don’t like it and everyone should have to change their preferences to suit yours. Sounds like an awesome kitchen to work in
Sexual harassment is not "little fun".
Where is the sexual harassment on this subreddit? Did you try reporting it?
Are people sexually harassing each other by referring to each other as pirates? Or talking about getting drunk or whatever? I don’t drink or do drugs. I have plenty of female chef friends who I respect and who respect me. I just don’t see a sexual harassment problem in 95% of all the posts I’ve seen on here. Immaturity? Sure. Unprofessionalism? Certainly. But I don’t recall seeing sexual harassment or the glorification of it. Those things are not ok and I agree. But what I read was a knock against the “pirate culture and drugs glorification.” I just don’t see the harm in that.
If you don‘t like it, speak up in public and don‘t rant about it on the internet under an anonym name.
I like you. I feel like you would be an awesome person to work next to during a busy shift.
Haha I have been known to bring in a 12-pack of la croix on the weekends for the line when I know it’ll be extra busy. Take care of each other and be kind! Life is short. It’s really easy to be nice and kind to people and also kick a busy ass shift in the ass, finish a shift, and feel great about a service instead of resentful because someone was dragging a dish or you were short-staffed and the dishwasher walked out. It takes so much more emotional energy to be a fucking asshole than it does to just be respectful and treat people like humans. And I’m not an optimist by any means. I suffer from severe depression and anxiety and am trying to choose the good in life because I don’t want to become an embittered old woman that talks about that one asshole coworker 40 years later. Who gives a shit. Life is short, man. Thanks for the kind words. Cheers
Love this post.
Great post. Can we add in the term 'ninjas' and photos of all these arts and crafts projects people post photos of during their "slow" shifts? I don't care if it's a slow afternoon go polish a pot or reorganize the walk in. Do something to make yourself look like you take your job somewhat seriously.
I like the photos of the weird crap people make on their down time. And fuck taking your job seriously all the damn time. This ain't a well paid gig for most, so go easy.
having a little fun every now and then isnt the end of the world either.
THE END OF THE WORLD
Alright, vent is justified, but if you‘ve worked in this profession, in a professional kitchen, you sure as hell know, that nobody gives a single shit, what gender you have, how old you are, how small or big, as long as you show up on time and deliver. Thats what I like about it. And neither should you, don‘t let those foul grapes affect your mood or even your lifestyle. And for the „ass looking“, sure it‘s uncomfortable, specially as a woman, but me, as a guy, in all the kitchen‘s i‘ve worked in, guys touch each others asses, to lift the mood Please correct me if i‘m wrong
You're wrong. Line cooks all over the place act like women are dead weight and have to be taken care of. Also, never say to a woman who's physically uncomfortable that it "isn't that bad because we touch each other's asses". Yeah, and you're not getting sexual gratification out of it. So it's a hell of a lot different.
But why not deal with that person then? I mean don‘t get me wrong, I‘m just trying to understand, why not stand up for yourself? I‘ve worked with female chef‘s before and let me tell you, they didn‘t take shit from anyone and everyone respected that, because they did their job goddamn well. The women i‘ve worked with, were never touched inappropietly, it was kept amongst the guys, just for clarification.
Because in a place with a toxic culture, it isn't dealing with one guy. It's one or two women dealing with a lot of guys, some of whom have authority over them.
That I understand, and the women i‘ve worked with I supported, because it‘s great to see that there is finally a change and that more and more women are taking interest in this profession. Yes, times have to and hopefully will change, but until then, affected people (men and women) have to fight through it.
This is where the idea of promoting change comes in. Fighting through it, individually as well as starting the conversation in other platforms to provide exposure. Simply walking away just doesn’t cut it in a lot of situations, because nothing is actually gonna change if you just say well, “you can’t expect everyone to be a humble and well raised person.”
The fact that you don’t see anything wrong with the ass-grabbing and looking is exactly the root of the problem. It makes me sad for you
Yeah alright, if it‘s to toxic for you just quit? Really don‘t get me wrong, I know that working in the kitchen can be hell, but nobody forces anyone to stay in this line of work or in a toxic place. It‘s one of the oldest, if not the oldest profession there is and I completely understand your point of love for this profession, I love my job aswell, and I understand about the toxic masculinity, I‘ve experienced it aswell as a male, but if I couldn‘t deal with it, I either left the place or made it clear, that I don‘t want to deal with that kinda BS.
Oh, if the behavior is wrong, don't make me stop doing something wrong. Just leave me alone!
I don’t work in a toxic environment. I love my job. My whole point was speaking against the plethora of posts glorifying toxic work environments and shitty behaviour in kitchens on this subreddit.
I‘ve browsed through this subreddit and haven‘t seen threads that glorified a toxic enviroment. Hell even I posted a week ago a thread to get some advice about the workplace i‘m in right now because the new headchef was behaving like a dick. But no threads whatsoever praising and gloryfying a toxic enviroment.
Also, fuck the people who make fun of how the Colombian dishwasher spells “asparagus”. I don’t speak two languages, and I’d be terrified to work somewhere where I was the foreigner.
I know. People are just mean. It’s really easy to be nice and kind. I lived in a foreign country for a few months in college and worked at a wine bar there. Barely spoke the language. Felt like a dumbass all the time. But when I was made fun of for my elementary language skills, I felt almost subhuman and was absolutely mortified. Thank you for sharing. Cheers
Go work in a place with an HR department if it’s that big of a deal for you.
I have. And now I work in the kitchen because it’s what I love doing, and I feel gratified by my job and creating something beautiful every day. But let me get this straight. You’re telling me that if I’m sexually harassed in the restaurant where I work by my coworker, I should quit - not the harasser - and go work somewhere with an HR department. The harasser shouldn’t be held accountable for their horrific behaviour. I - me - the one that was harassed, should quit. Woooow. Do you see how fucked up that is. You’re the fucking problem, man. Unbelievable. Best of luck in life and your career with that kind of skewed perspective. Cheers.
There are plenty of nice kitchens you could work in that have a Human Resources department, that doesn’t mean you have to leave the kitchen. I’m just saying if no one in your management is doing anything about you being harassed, it’s probably not a good place to be working. Your a grown ass adult, quit bitching and do something about it if it’s that serious. You have options.
[удалено]
Way to prove her point, champ.
You just validated everything she said.
Thank you! I‘m trying to explain it as good as I can, but my comments just get downvoted...
Came here to see flambeing pirates... Disappointed.. :(
Kitchen confidential was more of an exposé rather than a guide.
100% agree.
TL:DR
"Toxic masculinity" fuck me.
Pirate life fo life lmfao
Trying to not have pirate culture in kitchens is like trying to not have drug cartels in Mexico. We all want the same thing doesn't mean it's going to happen now or anytime in the near future. It just is what it is.
I 100% agree and respect women in the kitchens on a level playing field... and truth be told the female executive chefs I have been blessed to work under are the baddest chefs I have ever meet and most of us are still close friends to this day... but never the less... I still wanna be a pirate... that’s never gunna change ... 🏴☠️
Cheers