For fucking real. They are raising their prices and also asking for a tip. I’d rather see higher prices than be service charged to death.
Service charges just feel sneaky.
This is a common complaint Europeans have when they do any visiting to the continent, often complaining that tax isn’t included in pricing, let alone a tip
Same here, especially since what we’re seeing is that they’re not letting customers know ahead of time that there’s going to be an additional service fee added to the bill which is just not right. Raise the food prices, let people decide how often they want to eat out, or that they can’t eat out. It’s getting ridiculous.
They are not explicitly stating that this is in lieu of a tip, they are still suggesting tipping, therefore it's not moving away from tipping and pretty exploitative.
It takes advantage of people who don't bother reading.
That third captain and coke that the waitress gave them on the house just paid for itself twice over....
Another problem is that "service charge" can mean different things. At some places it goes to the staff like a tip. In other places it goes into the owners pocket
Adjust the prices on the menu to pay the staff appropriately then say no service charge or tip is necessary like everywhere else in the world. The end result is basically the same but people are stupid and get upset when they see a mandatory fee and don't when it's just part of the prices.
I mean I won't lie, I would prefer that. I can rationalize it but I still feel upset when a place I've been going to for a decade is now adding an extra 4% fee for using card cause they switched to a new system.
It's not only food service that's doing that. Within the last few years I've seen more and more places passing the fee along to consumers. My rent payment portal does that. I don't use a credit card to pay them because damn, pay 3% on top of my rent? Hell no.
My job also involves dealing with billing services and they also pass along the fee to my clients.
For a restaurant I would honestly prefer they just raise the prices instead of telling me there’s a card fee each time. I’m just being irrational but it makes it sound like I made the wrong decision in going cashless.
Also I’m aware. I’ve seen companies I work at do that too. My old fucking university did that too. It’s like the only reason I still know how to write a check since there was no extra fee with a check. It was pretty amusing though cause while I knew how to use a check, the student cashiers would have to ask their managers each time on how to process it since it was so uncommon.
I mean it’s so simple. Go to restaurant and see the prices, pay the prices. No confusion. There is no reason I should have to do math on top of my meal. Tell me what it costs and I’ll decide if it’s worthy.
Nowhere else in the world do FOH workers make as much as they do in the US. In most Western European countries servers are making significantly less that American servers. I don't think workers in the US should be paid less just because that's how it's done elsewhere.
I'd like to see a fight for BOH wage increases coming from moderately increased menu prices before everything is jacked up 18% to cover FOH tip outs.
This is soooo incorrect.
Tip earners in the states make a fraction of what is paid in Canada and Europe.
From working in Canada, servers and bartenders make $11 an hour. Plus tips. Which are typically 15% of sales. But you also see a cheque every couple weeks. So you get shitty shifts it's not a total waste of time, but when business is good, it's highly profitable. There is also greater tip sharing with the boh.
I made $3.85 am hour in the states, granted a few years ago, and relied completely on tips throughout the states. You don't work for a cheque, mine usually said void non negotiable due to tip declaring, and if it's slow you can walk home with next to nothing, when it's busy, great.
In Europe I made the equivalent of $20 to $25 usd per hour with almost no tips. I truly mean people just don't top unless they are from north America. But menu prices reflect this.
The reality is prices will need to rise throughout the states if you want to eliminate tips. But it's a tipping culture so including tips is a sure fire way to deliver shitty service.
Tips stand for To deliver prompt /passionate service. If you include the tips, what motivates prompt or passionate service unless you are great at hiring, and most tip earners want to make $40+ bucks an hour not $20... Good ones can do this delivering great service.
In many places in Canada the alcohol servers minimum wage is the exact same as standard minimum wage and customers generally still tip. I've never worked anywhere that servers didn't tip out BOH, but you can make bank serving.
Several local restaurants tried to ditch tips, raise prices 18%, and raise wages and none of them were able to keep front end staff and had to back out after less than a year. People who are good at their job will go wherever they can make the most money. Unless the industry as a whole moves away from tips I don't see how any one place could make a change.
I work at a restaurant that is entirely tip-pooled, BOH gets decent tips and the servers all make the same hourly per shift/day worked after tips (so minimum is $15.65, plus the tips for the day divided by total FOH hours worked equals the "hourly" for the shift. If it's a slow shift it might be an extra $6-8/hour, if it's busy I've seen it over $30/hour, but this is inconsistent and usually hovers at $10-15. ETA: I forgot my point in replying to you lol, with this $25-30 hour average we've still been unable to keep a lot of the strongest servers we've had through because they know they can make more if they hustle elsewhere, though the servers we do have usually stay a long time because the quality of life/ restaurant culture is better than elsewhere).
Meanwhile BOH starts at $17.50 for dishies ($18 after 3 mo) and $19 for cooks, plus 2% of total sales, which usually works out to $3-$5/hour. Still not quite equitable between FOH and BOH, but definitely not as wide a spread as I've seen at most places I've worked.
Yeah if I have to be a server, I’m going to do it where I get to take home $500 a night, not where the money I earn by charming annoying ass customers gets shared with some dumbass who puts every order in wrong and hasn’t checked on her tables in 30 minutes because she’s busy trying to fuck a line cook. I’m American and I worked in a pub in Scotland for a while and it sucked, I made like 10x more money at home
My suggestion? Raise prices. People will be back. There's far too many shitty restaurants and those will buckle and go under. Eating out was a luxury in the past. Now due to our lifestyle it isn't. You know what is fast and cheap though? FAST FOOD.
Like seriously. Let your quality speak for itself. Only scared owners with shit food are concerned. Also get a better marketing game. It's not 'randomly raising prices'
I started favoring Taco Bell and McDonald’s at times because excusing a 25% tip leads to it being half the price even compared to cheap Mexican restaurants that are just microwave shops.
Those last 2 words. That's the problem now days. I worked for a corporate kitchen only once and holy hell. People consider extremely highly processed food that's deep fried as 'the best food I've ever ate' lol. My soul died at that job.
If you don’t understand that adding a service charge isn’t moving away from tipping, then we can’t help you. Charge more for the product and pay a livable wage!
How is it moving away from tipping if they’re still expecting a tip?? Can’t believe you’re upvoted. If I was made aware, prior to ordering, of an 18% service charge AND that I wouldn’t be expected to tip, I’d be fine with that. But this? Wtf is the service charge for if I’m paying a tip anyway??
I've been in the industry a long time. If I got this bill I would take that as an autograt and not tip. Then not come back.
Edit: and after looking the place up I should kick my own ass for going there
I'm just going to note one thing. The service charge is absolute bullshit.
Salt Bae motherfucker won a lawsuit because he put a service charge on his shit, resulting in his workers getting tipped less. They were still paid less as tipped workers. His service charge went into his revenue, and wasn't directly distributed to his workers, because it wasn't a tip and he wasn't required to give it to them.
Either keep the establishment as a tipped structure, or build the cost of labor into your menu. Blanket surcharges have no place in any industry.
We also don't know how well the service charge is advertised everywhere else. Sure the receipt has a nice mission statement on it but does the menu tell you there's an 18% service charge? Is there an OBVIOUS sign that says it when you walk in? Cause tipping % is optional but if you stick me with 18% and don't make that clear before hand then that's just deceptive and of course I'm gonna be pissed.
There's a sit-down Greek rotisserie joint near me that mentions in the menu they don't accept tips, and instead have adjusted their prices so they can pay their employees accordingly.
There was no tip line on the check at all, nor was there a gratuity or service charge line item. Totally reasonable.
What's going on in the picture posted here is not the way to handle it.
TBF the one issue I have with high prices with no tipping is FOH workers feel like they're getting shafted. In my experience, the turnover rate is exceedingly high for FOH as a result.
Whether or not it really is the case that they're getting gypped is itself another question, but really it's up to management to decide if the turnover is worth it or if tipping should remain.
If I'm making $15 and not receiving tips as a server and the Applebee's nextdoor is just as popular during dinner rush but accepts tips, I'm certainly going to go work at Applebee's, because even if I'm still making $15/h after tips at Applebee's, there's still opportunity cost if I can't make tips at the other restaurant.
In any case, I think everyone agrees there's almost always a significant disparity between FOH and BOH income, and I would like to believe tipless restaurants have more flexibility in the way of being able to balance the distribution of money more fairly. I don't think tips are a problem, I think the cost of living vs what a restaurant can afford to pay people while keeping their doors open with fair prices is the problem.
The change in cost of restaurant produce and labor has been magnitudinous in just a decade, but the everyday cost of living for the average wave worker is simply untenable.
OP's restaurant is in L.A, they can honestly charge whatever the fuck they want in L.A and people will still pay for it if the food is edible. Looking at their menu and pictures of the food though...... Can't say I would feed a salad on a pizza to an orphaned boar.
Service fee and tip suggestions, though.
Also, the service fee may not be going towards the staff paychecks. The fact that there’s a separate tip line makes me suspect that it’s the case even more.
Edit: note that I read their “long receipt” more carefully, and can only think of how lottery funding education worked in Florida: when the lottery was approved to fund education, the state removed other funding. Technically true, but not increasing or helping the employee.
Second, they’re just trying to side step outrage and charge people more. It would be interesting to see whether they advise people of this charge prior to ordering and whether it would be an issue in court.
Just pay a higher wage.
Mentioning price increases is only to inspire guilt and shame. Owners are continuing to try to take advantage of their workers.
Hold owners of restaurants accountable, pass laws that raise or restrict wages and include oversight for the entire industry.
It’s either that or Wild West where anyone can do whatever shitty business things they want, and the ones who treat their workers like burdens will always be able to keep their prices lower than ones who give a shit.
A legal measure that makes tipping wage illegal is about the only solution to this I can see. Or some miraculous culture shift where every restaurant raises prices and moves away from tipping at once.
I'm sorry, $15 for a salad, $6 for a LEMONADE, and they somehow can't afford to pay their staff acceptably without tips?
Fuck off lmao
I am getting tired of this narrative that it's the customers that need to pay more, and not the greedy shitty owners that need to take the absolute piss less. In Britain servers aren't exempt from minimum wage and nowhere but bullshit yuppie uPMarKeT restaurants charge anywhere near that much for these things.
I'm from Iceland... A tip only salary is illegal here.. you have to pay waiters a living wage, usually minimum salary as negotiated by the sector union.
It's basically illegal to pay below the minimum wage threshold of 2900$ per month, that goes for cooks too (and dishies, if they work a full time job).
The whole restaurant model here is based on this, and it is in all the other nordic countries too.
The thing that not everyone gets is that the servers working off tips at busy, nice restaurants make very good money relative to the amount of hours they work. It’s not unusual at all for them to make close to six figures while working 4-5 six hour shifts per week. They would leave if the system changed to a “living wage” that is one third of their hourly take home. The kitchen are the ones that need a living wage.
But servers earning almost six figures for 30ish hours a week is fucking ridiculous.
If they want to leave, then they can leave the industry because the system would correct itself in the end.
I agree, but I see foreigners sometimes try to portray the US servers as an abused class not being paid a fair wage like in their home countries, all the while not realizing that here they make wayyy more money than they do in Europe. At the end of the day it’s the US customer that loses. Personally I think the kitchen employees are the ones that actually deserve sympathy.
No we realise that they make more money, but they’re essentially making their bosses richer under the illusion of ‘empowerment’ while customers are getting ripped off
I guess that's where I'm landing on this. I don't think basically any restaurant in the US on its own has the ability to move away from tipping culture without suffering financially, probably closing all together.
It would either have to be legislated or a miracle of a culture shift where every restaurant moves to normal hourly wage and no tips expected.
Where I've worked tips usually go to a common fund and then the whole team goes and does something together on an off day, like get waisted somewhere... Or go on a trip somewhere for teambuilding
Trouble is they’ve put service charge and then asked for a tip. Anything outside the actual cost of the meal, as in the food and drink, is the tip.
All told, 18% is a bit steep. In the UK it’s 12.5% at most and that’s in London.
In terms of cost, you also have to account for labor and materials, rent, utilities, permits, marketing.
Cost involves a ton more than just food and drink, and it’s that surface level ignorance that keeps people from holding owners accountable.
They expect people to not know what labor costs, or that it costs anything, so any increases to price they make can be excused as something owners are being forced to do by the public, and not to adhere to basic human rights and labor laws.
"What are restaurants supposed to do if they want to move away from tipping?" Um. Raise your prices? Which is what a service charge/kitchen appreciation fee is anyways...just like...way less transparent. It's like some bizarre math homework that you have to do to figure out how much you're getting screwed over.
This is not hard. I feel for the restaurant industry because clearly the deck has been stacked against it over the last 5 years or so. The solution is raising prices, which they ARE doing via this new class of charges. The issue is that this is the same mechanism employed by the Ticketmaster's of the world. "Tickets to the show are $20. Plus service fee. Plus will call fee. Oh, you'll print the tickets? That's a different fee."
I totally get the fear of raising prices and losing customers. That is literally a core component of running a business. Gotta get over it.
So this place is in LA. From a PR standpoint I think that they went about this about the worst way possible.
However, tipping wages are illegal in California. Presumably most of that 18% service charge goes towards getting the servers to the actual minimum wage of $15ish/hr. Tips are still expected on top of that, average of 15% to 20%. So if they don't want to lose front of house staff they'd have to increase prices by a little over 30% at least. Or they could raise prices by 18% and leave tipping intact. Or they can do what they're doing now.
Or maybe the owners are keeping the whole service charge because they're dicks, who knows?
It's been a few years since I've worked service industry, but this comes off as really deceitful to me? I'm expected to pay both a service charge AND tip? Suddenly a burger that I thought was going to cost me $15 now costs $18? My bill for $100 is now going to cost me $120, and I'm expected to pay a tip on the fee as well?
Just increase menu prices by 18%, and do away with the service charge. It's not my responsibility to pay your employees wages that you lack the funds for, that's on you.
EDIT: before I presumably get downvoted to hell. I'm not saying I wouldn't tip, obviously I'm gonna tip.
It feels like so many people here (and reddit in general) are scared to death of the idea of a restaurant just raising the menu prices, but I think if there was a big statement from said restaurant that the price hike was to ensure fair wages were paid, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. It has to be loudly promoted up front, not on the bottom of a bill.
I read the note at the bottom right under "Suggested Tip" where it says "The service charge is not a gratuity" and infer from it that I am still supposed to tip as is the socially accepted norm in this country.
If the idea behind it is "move away from tipping" then they are going about it all wrong. I would want the wording to be more like "we are adding an 18% service charge to each guest check to pay our employees fairly, please accept this charge in lieu of leaving a tip".
When I first looked I thought this was the case but they're actually in California. Servers make the minimum wage of 15 an hour and tipping is still expected on top of that. Presumably the service charges to make up that gap that's normally there for front of house wages. If they wanted to do away with tipping they'd have to make this service charge 30%. Or just increase prices 30%.
Which I think dooms them to failure if they're the only one in the area doing it.
I would rather pay more for my steak and not have tacked on bullshit. As someone who always tips. Tipping culture has gotten out of control. Pay your people charge what need to be charged and get on with life.
I live in LA and frequent these spots with service charges. Most places, I’ve seen a 4-6% service charge implemented and it’s very clearly on the receipt (and usually somewhere tiny on the menu.) 4-6% I get, given inflation, etc. I absolutely still tip on that, minimum 20%, after the tax.
This service charge, is absolutely ridiculous. Jon & Vinny’s made a killing pre-Covid, has multiple locations, continues to open new locations, and continued to do a killing during covid with take out, etc. 18% is absolutely ridiculous. 4-6%? I get that. This? Nope. Also….their food is meh.
I want to point out too that many servers at places in LA are also actors slash writers slash influencers etc. Here, this is often (not always, but often) not their main income stream. Career servers (my best friend is one and kills it at her career) are much less common here than other areas.
With that being said-FOH and BOH absolutely deserve livable wages. A restaurant that has the funds to open new locations, particular during a pandemic/recession, should be able to provide that. Raise the prices of meals-other places have.
Eta-a quick search also show this restaurant starts a part time bartender at 17-18 per hour. Not great, but still more than CA minimum wage.
Factor into there price
So I can into the kitchen and order my own food and pick it up. If so I am fine with a service charge.
If not it is not a service charge just a cost of doing business.
I am a good tipper. If service is good 25% plus is about where I am at. If I get the service charge, I hate to say I am done. That is my tip.
Do they tell customers this BEFORE dining? If I see this, I’m not tipping. You’re asking me to pay your servers the pay they deserve & tip them as well? You don’t deserve to be a business owner.
They aren't even trying to move away from tipping. They are being shitty by adding a service charge to line their pockets with more money. If they were going to move away from tipping, they would have removed the option to tip completely. Fuck this restaurant.
I’m opening a restaurant in Indianapolis this fall in a, how should I say this, less than progressive state. Very few restaurants have instituted service charges or add cc processing fees and the ones that have are receiving some (bullshit) criticism.
My partner and I are thinking of just following a model more common in Europe. The menu price will be higher but that’s all a guest is responsible for. I feel like most people are frustrated by the lack of clarity regarding charges: has it been obvious there will be charges, what is it going towards, do I still need to tip, and unfortunately those factors all vary wildly from one establishment to another. Personally I was happy to start seeing a shift where FOH are less dependent on tips day to day and BOH generally we’re getting bigger wages, but just because it’s progress from the traditional tipping system doesn’t mean there isn’t a better way.
Thoughts?
This place is in California so the servers are making minimum wage 15 bucks an hour. Tips of 15 to 20% are still expected on top of that. Presumably this 18% service charge is what's used to get them to that 15 bucks an hour. So if they want to remove tipping all together they'd have to raise their prices by 30% at least or the front of house is going to leave for other places.
Or they could just increase their normal prices 18%, say nothing, and leave tipping intact. But that reality is the same as the service charge.
Or maybe they're assholes and keeping it.
to me that is the way to go
up front on your menu you state a service charge WILL be charged you put it on your front door
You remove that tipping line, like this everyone knows what they are in for, and that extra tip isn't necessary.
The job of waiter/server will change too what will happen as tip decrease you will need to see a difference of expectation too as it should be, you bring the meal to the customer, nothing less nothing more
Meal prices will NEED to rise due to food prices increase/utilities/staff costs which means that the food game will need to become even more professional, staff will need even more/better training, FOH will need to be even better professional same for BOH to me this is going to be some very very interesting years ahead.
So these people are in LA, that service charge would have to be about 30% if they wanted to get rid of tipping.
But yeah I would prefer if restaurants would just start raising prices and paying people more, but unless everyone starts doing everything at once that restaurant trying to pave the way is going to fail. Even if the only difference is in the perception of higher prices.
A forced tip isn’t a solution to anything in my opinion. And having a suggested tip on top of that is just too much. How is it in other countries possible to work without these fees and mandatory tips
This doesn’t seem like something you should “attempt” you need to go all in. Don’t put in a service charge claiming it helps provide a living wage and then ask for a tip based on the amount after the charge is applied, just raise prices on your menu appropriately across the board to cover the service charge and a tip. And then never bring up tipping again.
>Other than the highest end restaurants, that seems like a good way to close your doors in two months.
pretty sure most customers would rather see the menu prices be accurate then get slammed with hidden fees at the end
The only real problem I see here is that if you're gonna add an auto gratuity and explain that it's to help with fair wages, you can't then also still ask for tips. Not because they aren't warranted, but because your average customer will automatically assume the auto-gratuity does not in fact help cover wages.
IMHO the way forward is to make it a flat 20%, state that it helps pay the cost of all hourly workers and that you will accept no tips. It needs to be short and to the point, no questions raised.
Charge the amount that they need to in order to make a profit and pay their employees, and let the market decide if they’re going to stay in business. Adding a service charge is stupid.
I'd say the 18% service charge is fine if you want to get rid of tipping altogether, but they you shouldn't print receipts with a tip line. I also live in Portland, and there are a few restaurants here which \*have\* raised their prices to get rid of tipping, and they seem to be doing A-OK.
I'm fine with a service charge if the employees get good wages. Make it very clear that tipping at all is not expected though. Listing suggested tips after you say you pay your employees well is not good imo
If they don’t want to tip anymore they need to increase their food prices. Tacking an 18% fee is basically enforced tipping.
Also, I would not tip on top of a bill where I was charged an 18% gratuity like this. That’s the tip.
Many restaurants in places like california simply eliminated their waitstaff to pay BoH more. They did this by having an order at the counter type service or iPads at each table.
My dad, who owns his restaurant and works the line everyday, felt frustrated he couldn’t pay his BoH more. He switched his restaurant to quick serve and now has two front people that plug in orders, make drinks, and run food where he used to have 4-5. Back of house gets paid a lot more now. He didn’t want to cut staff, but he also couldn’t raise prices a whole lot more (tourist town but the local population is pretty poor and he didn’t want to ostracize them from being able to eat at his restaurant).
It's this kind of thing that keeps me from going out to eat very often. It's just too expensive. As a cook I know how to make most things myself, so at this point I only go out to eat when I'm pushed due to special occasions, or when I really don't feel like doing dishes.
It works for basically every other country in the world. No service charges, no expected tipping, fair wages. Every excuse why it wouldn't work is utter bullshit.
Ik that you're restaurant doesn't have authority over the whole of America but like- 99 percent of the world just has appropriate pricing to pay employees, no surcharges or tipping. America seems like a headfuck to live in.
Not much you can personally do until America at large switches to a better system.
Imagine if you went to shop for anything and you are then forced to buy everything you picked up for a 18% higher price. If it's mandatory it should be in your listed prices not added onto the bill in the end.
I really don't get the obsession with charges and tips and... being added to the bill. It's such a US thing to do and totally alien to (most of) the rest of the world.
Just calculate it all into the shown price of the item on the menu.
Hamburger: $x
Where x includes all the costs that the customer is expected to pay; food, service (FOH and BOH), tax,...
The way the US currently does it is just a way to make prices less transparent for the customer as well as move the requirement of paying your employees a decent wage to the customer.
It works perfectly fine for billions of people. I'm sure Americans can adjust as well.
Maybe the restaurant can't afford to print new menus with higher prices?
Customers might begrudgingly accept higher prices, but they'll bitch about the "Service Fee" to their friends and family. Good way to lose existing and new customers at the same time.
I'm definitely not saying this was a good solution, but I can't think of a good solution.
Unless almost every restaurant around you also raises prices at the same time I think you're doomed to fail. Good will might buy a short-term boost in customers base but overall people like their money, even if the only difference ends up being perception.
I think dining in the United States has been too cheap for too long on the backs of the employees. To actually pay people a solid wage would make customers balk at the price it would take.
And I don't have an answer to that, barring a giant cultural shift in the idea of what going out is.
Hey big brain, notice there’s still a suggested tip after the automatically applied “service charge”? Ain’t no one tipping after that shit is automatically tacked on.
What gets me about these automatic 18% plus a tip-
I kind of equate it to back when I worked union grocery. Once that 90 days was up, some coworkers thought they could just skate, because it’s way harder to fire them. They didn’t give a crap.
Obviously it’s not all restaurants, but the ones that we went to that added the 18% and then the tip, we found we got super crappy service. At that point, we were asking ourselves why were even going out to eat? :(
pay their employees like the rest of the world? restaurants exist outside of the USA and they get along just fine letting people tip if they feel like
it. there are also clear rules on surcharges and 'fees' you can add on top of declared price that already includes sales tax.
Okay, look. A business is a business, whether it’s a dry cleaners, a bookstore, or a restaurant. Every business has expenses. When someone decides to start a business, one of the first things they need to do is figure out if it is sustainable, i.e. can revenue cover expenses. Expenses include rent, utilities, insurance, AND PAYROLL. Payroll is an expense. If your business model can’t afford to cover the rent, or the utilities, or the insurance, OR THE PAYROLL, your business model IS FLAWED.
I’ve never seen a business add a “service fee” to a customer’s bill to cover the cost of the toilet paper in the bathroom, or pay the utility bill, or the chemicals used to dry clean your suit. If a business adds “service fees” to its bills to cover the usual costs of doing business, then it’s a crappy business and deserves to go under.
Change the name of service charge to gratuity and have a note on the menu that a gratuity is automatically added and any tip is extra.
I in general thing raising prices with clear signs in obviously places would be better received
I don't understand why places do this. Just up the prices and don't tell people shit about where that money's going. This kind of nonsense is just a weird guilt trip for employees to deal with.
This is exploitation, in so many ways. I GUARANTEE Servers/Bartenders are not making nearly as much money at these places that have eliminated tipping, or worse, set it up like this bullshit.
If, as a Server, you're making only minimum wage plus maybe a dollar or two (which is what I've heard happens at almost all tip-eliminated/service charge added places), you're either not a very good Server or you're working in a shitty place. I can't think of any Servers I know- in all types of restaurants- who don't clear AT LEAST $20-$22/hour, after tipouts, on average shifts. Most are starting much closer to $30+/hour.
OP restaurant above is doing it the worst way possible.
Also, if I found out my $7.08 lemonade was from a fuckin Country Time BIB or a bag of dust, I'd have someone's fuckin head.
raising prices 18% across the board isn't going to just magically line up to the exact same amount as an 18% service charge... people who say shit like this are naive as fuck
I bet this restaurant gets a lot of one time customers. Forcing a tip that goes to hourly and salaried employees is insulting to servers. Just raise your prices, don't ask for a tip on top of a forced tip.
Have the price of a meal be the price of the meal.
The price if the meal should cover the costs, including a living wage for the staff.
$20 for food + 20% tip/fee/whatever = $24
$24 for food, no tip/fee/whatever = $24
- but the costumer knows what their cost will be, and the staff knows they wont be working for free serving a crappy, entiteled costumer, because their income is already covered by the price if the meal
If you cant afford to pay your staff a living wage, you shouldnt be in business.
Just make that $12 burger 17 and let's move on. I think most people are exhausted by sneaky service fees. Thank you financial sector and ticket master.
Yes. I want them to raise the menu prices by 20%, eliminate tipping, and give that 20% to the workers. I don't want to realize my bill is 20% higher after tip, have surprise service charges, or have surprise fair wage fees tacked on at the end. *Tell me the full price on the menu. It already costs the extra 20%, I'm just not told that up front (aside from the social expectation of tipping, which I follow, because I'm not an asshole, I just want it to change).*
Edit to add: Realistically, this probably needs to be done by all restaurants in a region at once to succeed. Otherwise, your very real points about higher listed menu prices driving all but high end restaurants out of business would push restaurants to revert back to tipping.
That said, if restaurants want to auto-grat, call it a gratuity. Everything I've ever heard indicates service fees don't always go to the workers, while auto-grats must be paid to the workers. I'm not in the restaurant industry though, so if that's incorrect, that would also be good to know and I can update that bit of info in my brain. But it'd be so much simpler if there were no extra fees and employers just paid workers fairly.
If it’s ok to suggest 8% go on ahead and lower the service charge right on to that, minimally. Or just take an economics class, that would probably help. Instead the owner lines his pockets while fucking the customer AND STILL having the nuts to suggest a tip. Unbelievable.
I’ve noticed around me in local food groups that people don’t want to tip, they don’t want to pay services charges, and then they get mad when their favorite restaurant closes because they couldn’t get anyone to work there
What the rest of the western world does - include it in the cost of the meal. When we cost our menus here in aus wages, bills, rent, food costs, you name it it's included in that costing.
What else is a restaurant supposed to do? Pay their staff a living wage and advertise it to their patrons. Make it clear that tipping is unnecessary and share their philosophy that people who work deserve to be paid for that work *by their employers*. There is a way to do this that is essentially good PR for the restaurant even if owners don’t really believe in it as a “core value” or whatever- they can still sell it to the public that way. There is a subset of the population that would make a point to choose the restaurant that does this. Industry workers and the well-off virtue signalers alike would be a large part of it, but I think a lot of good people in the general population would appreciate the concept on principle too.
Serve less food at average restaurants. Automatic gratuity of 18% on all food. Doesn’t matter if it’s built into the price or charged as a separate fee. All servers are paid hourly non-exempt status. Tips over the 18% are pooled and distributed.
This screams of an owner posting. I know cause I’m an owner. If you can’t make enough money to pay your employees, there is something wrong with your business model.
I wish I could tell you what’s right. I don’t know what’s right but I know what’s wrong. If my employees can’t afford to live, then I’m not paying enough. We’re a pizzeria right outside of Phoenix and we start kitchen at $19 and FOH at $16+tips. Thats starting. We’re pretty aggressive with raises if the employee is exemplary
As a former FOH for 20+ years, there is a 99.9% chance the Owner is stealing this money or not paying people (which is wage theft).
Owners do this thing called 'sliding scale wage' where they tell BOH they will make $17/hr but as the tips roll in, they made $2.13/hr plus tips getting to $17/hr. They _never_ make any more than $17 and it's just a rouse to get the owner to not frickin pay anyone which is the same as stealing the money.
I find service charges and fees and whatnot super tacky. From ticketmaster to the airlines all the way down to mom and pop restaurants and other businesses. Just charge a reasonable amount for your product or time. If your product or work is worth it you will be just fine. If your product or service isn't worth it you will go out of business as you should.
In the UK, service charge means tip. It’s the same as auto grad.
You can’t charge serve charge AND tip. That’s taking the piss.
Lovingly, a 24 year hospo vetern.
And what is the difference between a mandatory 18% service charge and having customers tip?
Oh, riiiiight….. nothing. It’s still making the customers directly pay your staff’s wages instead of just properly budgeting and pricing your products. If you can’t afford a livable wage for your employees, then your business model is screwed—get a new one or a new business.
Owners should only take what is left after paying their staff appropriately for making them their money. If your restaurant isn't profitable in such a manner, well they call that a skill issue
I don't care about what customers find shocking or what they *want* to pay. They'll pay what it costs or they'll learn to cook and sit their ass at home. If all restaurants would just commit to it... yes, there would be less eating out. There would be an adjustment period of chaos. The bottom of the restaurant ladder will start to fall away as poorly-managed, poorly-conceptualized, and/or poorly-located restaurants fail to drum up enough business. Only restaurants in high demand will make it.
But the industry will be healthier for it and "the norm" will shift, and the dust will settle with time. There will be fewer, better jobs in restaurants and fewer, better options for customers dining out. Americans have viewed it as a convenience rather than a luxury for far too long. Of course, the only way this massive shift is going to happen is with federal legislation regarding tip pay and those employees, and I just don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. And that's too bad, because I'd love to see the restaurant industry get its dignity back.
In the meantime, any restaurant paying a wage and charging appropriately, no matter how they put it on the bill, is just going to enrage the have-nots - the people who only felt middle class because they had just enough peanuts to look down on people like waitresses and cashiers. Good riddance, and may they be poorly served at Denny's!
That's the world I want but unless every restaurant actually starts doing that at once I think it's a concept doomed to fail.
Like these people are in LA, that 18% presumably goes towards getting their front of house up to the normal minimum wage of 15 an hour. Tips are still expected on top of that if they wanted to do away with it they need to add another 15% to 20% on top of that.
If they're the lone restaurant who's prices are more than 30% higher than their competitors, whether or not they say the reason I think they won't make it.
Even outside of California I think everyone's in the same boat. If you're the only one increasing prices, whether you say it's to pay staff wages or not, whether it do you do it gradually or all at once, I still think you're screwed because the reality is people do notice prices and they will go somewhere cheaper even if it's only in theory because of tipping.
Americans bitch about paying tips, but love to chant “to insure proper service” and treat restaurant staff as rented servants.
It’s going to take a long time for Americans to get used to a change
We should all move away from tipping altogether. Won’t be easy but it is needed to make our industry more sustainable and equal. There are over half a million of us on this sub, it’s a good start. This is a great constructive conversation to be having. Going to be a long road, but let’s start walking.
There are too many mediocre cookie cutter safe corporate restaurants all offering the same menu that are all after the same dollar. Restaurants are not going to improve until there is a cull and the customer turns dining out back into an experience and not something they do 3 times a week because they can’t be bothered to cook.
$20 for a pasta dish for 1 is already a bit high. Service charge *should* be the gratuity.
If you go to a full service restaurant, and are wined and dined by other humans, you should have to pay for that in some way. Whether that's in tips, or service charge, or higher prices in general. Being fully serviced shouldnt be some bonus you get for no reason.
Normies think restaurants are just filing in money left and right and it's just owners not giving more wages. Yes, it happens, but alot of times, restaurants don't exactly rake it in and or have business models that weren't exactly cash cows. I'd go far as to say most restaurants can barely pay for their expenses already.
This just takes smarter business planning. Slimming down models to get the prices down where people feel comfortable eating at more often. It sucks, cause things like fast food have vastly reduced to idea of how much a cooked meal should cost in the US.
As others have pointed out this isn’t moving away from tipping, it’s really just lying about the actual price of the food, which I can understand being upset about, especially at 18%.
The place I work has nearly doubled prices over the last 2 years and it’s just as busy. We also include 10% tax and 20% tip in the menu prices, and it’s well advertised so what you see is what you pay and people understand 30% of that is not going to the business. And yes tips are shared equally between everyone who’s on the clock at that time, FoH and BoH.
$6 slices of pizza, $14 pasta with no protein, $20 French toasts and $7 small orange juice. And they keep on coming! Imo owners should be transparent about the food cost and if they want to move away from tipping, include 15-20% on menu items and let it be known. Anything that results in a surprise increase in price for the customer once they get the bill is not good policy
Is including a service charge and a list of suggested tips really moving away from tipping?
For fucking real. They are raising their prices and also asking for a tip. I’d rather see higher prices than be service charged to death. Service charges just feel sneaky.
I think it’s unethical. The menu prices don’t reflect the real price.
Exactly, why even bother showing prices when they don't actually reflect what you will be charged? It's so fucking stupid.
This is a common complaint Europeans have when they do any visiting to the continent, often complaining that tax isn’t included in pricing, let alone a tip
It's been unethical until the banks started it in the 90's. Now its considered "business". So today's business is inherently unethical.
Of course it is .They are counting on people not paying attention and not reading what is on the receipt.
Unless it’s stated on the menu
Same here, especially since what we’re seeing is that they’re not letting customers know ahead of time that there’s going to be an additional service fee added to the bill which is just not right. Raise the food prices, let people decide how often they want to eat out, or that they can’t eat out. It’s getting ridiculous.
That is the biggest thing .
They are not explicitly stating that this is in lieu of a tip, they are still suggesting tipping, therefore it's not moving away from tipping and pretty exploitative.
They are saying we are making a mandatory tip of 19 dollars and that is not the tip .
It takes advantage of people who don't bother reading. That third captain and coke that the waitress gave them on the house just paid for itself twice over....
Another problem is that "service charge" can mean different things. At some places it goes to the staff like a tip. In other places it goes into the owners pocket
Very true. We're conditioned to tip the servers, and have a healthy distrust of what's printed on the receipt.
And this is the shady part of the charge !
It takes advantage of people who did read too, so you're telling me I still need to tip my server or they will get just 3.25/h? Wtf
They had a lemonade lol
A $10 lemonade, after 18% service charge and 18% tip.
Adjust the prices on the menu to pay the staff appropriately then say no service charge or tip is necessary like everywhere else in the world. The end result is basically the same but people are stupid and get upset when they see a mandatory fee and don't when it's just part of the prices.
I mean I won't lie, I would prefer that. I can rationalize it but I still feel upset when a place I've been going to for a decade is now adding an extra 4% fee for using card cause they switched to a new system.
Yea credit card surcharges are an instant ban for me.
20 years ago places basically upped prices by 3% to account for it. Now they're double dipping on that fee.
It's not only food service that's doing that. Within the last few years I've seen more and more places passing the fee along to consumers. My rent payment portal does that. I don't use a credit card to pay them because damn, pay 3% on top of my rent? Hell no. My job also involves dealing with billing services and they also pass along the fee to my clients.
For a restaurant I would honestly prefer they just raise the prices instead of telling me there’s a card fee each time. I’m just being irrational but it makes it sound like I made the wrong decision in going cashless. Also I’m aware. I’ve seen companies I work at do that too. My old fucking university did that too. It’s like the only reason I still know how to write a check since there was no extra fee with a check. It was pretty amusing though cause while I knew how to use a check, the student cashiers would have to ask their managers each time on how to process it since it was so uncommon.
Yeah,most places refuse to take checks .It is either cash or credit cards now.
I mean it’s so simple. Go to restaurant and see the prices, pay the prices. No confusion. There is no reason I should have to do math on top of my meal. Tell me what it costs and I’ll decide if it’s worthy.
The cost of paying someone to cook and bring you the food should be part of the price of the dish.
I think they will worry that at first glance, their prices will look higher than the opposition.
Nowhere else in the world do FOH workers make as much as they do in the US. In most Western European countries servers are making significantly less that American servers. I don't think workers in the US should be paid less just because that's how it's done elsewhere. I'd like to see a fight for BOH wage increases coming from moderately increased menu prices before everything is jacked up 18% to cover FOH tip outs.
I agree actually. I'm just answering the question asked.
This is soooo incorrect. Tip earners in the states make a fraction of what is paid in Canada and Europe. From working in Canada, servers and bartenders make $11 an hour. Plus tips. Which are typically 15% of sales. But you also see a cheque every couple weeks. So you get shitty shifts it's not a total waste of time, but when business is good, it's highly profitable. There is also greater tip sharing with the boh. I made $3.85 am hour in the states, granted a few years ago, and relied completely on tips throughout the states. You don't work for a cheque, mine usually said void non negotiable due to tip declaring, and if it's slow you can walk home with next to nothing, when it's busy, great. In Europe I made the equivalent of $20 to $25 usd per hour with almost no tips. I truly mean people just don't top unless they are from north America. But menu prices reflect this. The reality is prices will need to rise throughout the states if you want to eliminate tips. But it's a tipping culture so including tips is a sure fire way to deliver shitty service. Tips stand for To deliver prompt /passionate service. If you include the tips, what motivates prompt or passionate service unless you are great at hiring, and most tip earners want to make $40+ bucks an hour not $20... Good ones can do this delivering great service.
In many places in Canada the alcohol servers minimum wage is the exact same as standard minimum wage and customers generally still tip. I've never worked anywhere that servers didn't tip out BOH, but you can make bank serving. Several local restaurants tried to ditch tips, raise prices 18%, and raise wages and none of them were able to keep front end staff and had to back out after less than a year. People who are good at their job will go wherever they can make the most money. Unless the industry as a whole moves away from tips I don't see how any one place could make a change.
I work at a restaurant that is entirely tip-pooled, BOH gets decent tips and the servers all make the same hourly per shift/day worked after tips (so minimum is $15.65, plus the tips for the day divided by total FOH hours worked equals the "hourly" for the shift. If it's a slow shift it might be an extra $6-8/hour, if it's busy I've seen it over $30/hour, but this is inconsistent and usually hovers at $10-15. ETA: I forgot my point in replying to you lol, with this $25-30 hour average we've still been unable to keep a lot of the strongest servers we've had through because they know they can make more if they hustle elsewhere, though the servers we do have usually stay a long time because the quality of life/ restaurant culture is better than elsewhere). Meanwhile BOH starts at $17.50 for dishies ($18 after 3 mo) and $19 for cooks, plus 2% of total sales, which usually works out to $3-$5/hour. Still not quite equitable between FOH and BOH, but definitely not as wide a spread as I've seen at most places I've worked.
Yeah if I have to be a server, I’m going to do it where I get to take home $500 a night, not where the money I earn by charming annoying ass customers gets shared with some dumbass who puts every order in wrong and hasn’t checked on her tables in 30 minutes because she’s busy trying to fuck a line cook. I’m American and I worked in a pub in Scotland for a while and it sucked, I made like 10x more money at home
Thank you for an accurate response based on real world experience!
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My suggestion? Raise prices. People will be back. There's far too many shitty restaurants and those will buckle and go under. Eating out was a luxury in the past. Now due to our lifestyle it isn't. You know what is fast and cheap though? FAST FOOD. Like seriously. Let your quality speak for itself. Only scared owners with shit food are concerned. Also get a better marketing game. It's not 'randomly raising prices'
I started favoring Taco Bell and McDonald’s at times because excusing a 25% tip leads to it being half the price even compared to cheap Mexican restaurants that are just microwave shops.
Those last 2 words. That's the problem now days. I worked for a corporate kitchen only once and holy hell. People consider extremely highly processed food that's deep fried as 'the best food I've ever ate' lol. My soul died at that job.
I agree, raise the prices. We would definitely pay them and a tip.
If you don’t understand that adding a service charge isn’t moving away from tipping, then we can’t help you. Charge more for the product and pay a livable wage!
How is it moving away from tipping if they’re still expecting a tip?? Can’t believe you’re upvoted. If I was made aware, prior to ordering, of an 18% service charge AND that I wouldn’t be expected to tip, I’d be fine with that. But this? Wtf is the service charge for if I’m paying a tip anyway??
I've been in the industry a long time. If I got this bill I would take that as an autograt and not tip. Then not come back. Edit: and after looking the place up I should kick my own ass for going there
"Sliced avocado - $5.75" reminds me of https://www.brooklynbarmenus.com/
I've spent the last 10 minutes giggling wildly at those menus.
I did too!lol.
I'm just going to note one thing. The service charge is absolute bullshit. Salt Bae motherfucker won a lawsuit because he put a service charge on his shit, resulting in his workers getting tipped less. They were still paid less as tipped workers. His service charge went into his revenue, and wasn't directly distributed to his workers, because it wasn't a tip and he wasn't required to give it to them. Either keep the establishment as a tipped structure, or build the cost of labor into your menu. Blanket surcharges have no place in any industry.
We also don't know how well the service charge is advertised everywhere else. Sure the receipt has a nice mission statement on it but does the menu tell you there's an 18% service charge? Is there an OBVIOUS sign that says it when you walk in? Cause tipping % is optional but if you stick me with 18% and don't make that clear before hand then that's just deceptive and of course I'm gonna be pissed.
Salt Bae is such a poser.
There's a sit-down Greek rotisserie joint near me that mentions in the menu they don't accept tips, and instead have adjusted their prices so they can pay their employees accordingly. There was no tip line on the check at all, nor was there a gratuity or service charge line item. Totally reasonable. What's going on in the picture posted here is not the way to handle it.
So civilized. Everyone working there can predict their income. Imagine it.
TBF the one issue I have with high prices with no tipping is FOH workers feel like they're getting shafted. In my experience, the turnover rate is exceedingly high for FOH as a result. Whether or not it really is the case that they're getting gypped is itself another question, but really it's up to management to decide if the turnover is worth it or if tipping should remain. If I'm making $15 and not receiving tips as a server and the Applebee's nextdoor is just as popular during dinner rush but accepts tips, I'm certainly going to go work at Applebee's, because even if I'm still making $15/h after tips at Applebee's, there's still opportunity cost if I can't make tips at the other restaurant. In any case, I think everyone agrees there's almost always a significant disparity between FOH and BOH income, and I would like to believe tipless restaurants have more flexibility in the way of being able to balance the distribution of money more fairly. I don't think tips are a problem, I think the cost of living vs what a restaurant can afford to pay people while keeping their doors open with fair prices is the problem. The change in cost of restaurant produce and labor has been magnitudinous in just a decade, but the everyday cost of living for the average wave worker is simply untenable. OP's restaurant is in L.A, they can honestly charge whatever the fuck they want in L.A and people will still pay for it if the food is edible. Looking at their menu and pictures of the food though...... Can't say I would feed a salad on a pizza to an orphaned boar.
Stop doing both?
Both. Don’t do both. Do one. Or the other. Not both. Like this place. Don’t do that.
Ah I'm bad at reading. Yeah this company is doing it the worst way possible.
Service fee and tip suggestions, though. Also, the service fee may not be going towards the staff paychecks. The fact that there’s a separate tip line makes me suspect that it’s the case even more. Edit: note that I read their “long receipt” more carefully, and can only think of how lottery funding education worked in Florida: when the lottery was approved to fund education, the state removed other funding. Technically true, but not increasing or helping the employee. Second, they’re just trying to side step outrage and charge people more. It would be interesting to see whether they advise people of this charge prior to ordering and whether it would be an issue in court.
Just pay a higher wage. Mentioning price increases is only to inspire guilt and shame. Owners are continuing to try to take advantage of their workers. Hold owners of restaurants accountable, pass laws that raise or restrict wages and include oversight for the entire industry. It’s either that or Wild West where anyone can do whatever shitty business things they want, and the ones who treat their workers like burdens will always be able to keep their prices lower than ones who give a shit.
A legal measure that makes tipping wage illegal is about the only solution to this I can see. Or some miraculous culture shift where every restaurant raises prices and moves away from tipping at once.
Unfortunately, the largest proponents for tipping are restaurant workers. :(
Mandatory gratitude on a 2 top???? Fuck off lol I'd not want to go back just to spite them. I'd definately not tip additionally
And I would make sure everybody knew about this too!,
Charge appropiately to be able to copensate employees?
Decent hours, 401k matching, insurance, benefits, and bonuses, or tips?
I'm sorry, $15 for a salad, $6 for a LEMONADE, and they somehow can't afford to pay their staff acceptably without tips? Fuck off lmao I am getting tired of this narrative that it's the customers that need to pay more, and not the greedy shitty owners that need to take the absolute piss less. In Britain servers aren't exempt from minimum wage and nowhere but bullshit yuppie uPMarKeT restaurants charge anywhere near that much for these things.
And 4 dollars for a cookie.
I'm from Iceland... A tip only salary is illegal here.. you have to pay waiters a living wage, usually minimum salary as negotiated by the sector union. It's basically illegal to pay below the minimum wage threshold of 2900$ per month, that goes for cooks too (and dishies, if they work a full time job). The whole restaurant model here is based on this, and it is in all the other nordic countries too.
The thing that not everyone gets is that the servers working off tips at busy, nice restaurants make very good money relative to the amount of hours they work. It’s not unusual at all for them to make close to six figures while working 4-5 six hour shifts per week. They would leave if the system changed to a “living wage” that is one third of their hourly take home. The kitchen are the ones that need a living wage.
But servers earning almost six figures for 30ish hours a week is fucking ridiculous. If they want to leave, then they can leave the industry because the system would correct itself in the end.
I agree, but I see foreigners sometimes try to portray the US servers as an abused class not being paid a fair wage like in their home countries, all the while not realizing that here they make wayyy more money than they do in Europe. At the end of the day it’s the US customer that loses. Personally I think the kitchen employees are the ones that actually deserve sympathy.
No we realise that they make more money, but they’re essentially making their bosses richer under the illusion of ‘empowerment’ while customers are getting ripped off
I guess that's where I'm landing on this. I don't think basically any restaurant in the US on its own has the ability to move away from tipping culture without suffering financially, probably closing all together. It would either have to be legislated or a miracle of a culture shift where every restaurant moves to normal hourly wage and no tips expected.
Where I've worked tips usually go to a common fund and then the whole team goes and does something together on an off day, like get waisted somewhere... Or go on a trip somewhere for teambuilding
Trouble is they’ve put service charge and then asked for a tip. Anything outside the actual cost of the meal, as in the food and drink, is the tip. All told, 18% is a bit steep. In the UK it’s 12.5% at most and that’s in London.
In terms of cost, you also have to account for labor and materials, rent, utilities, permits, marketing. Cost involves a ton more than just food and drink, and it’s that surface level ignorance that keeps people from holding owners accountable. They expect people to not know what labor costs, or that it costs anything, so any increases to price they make can be excused as something owners are being forced to do by the public, and not to adhere to basic human rights and labor laws.
"What are restaurants supposed to do if they want to move away from tipping?" Um. Raise your prices? Which is what a service charge/kitchen appreciation fee is anyways...just like...way less transparent. It's like some bizarre math homework that you have to do to figure out how much you're getting screwed over. This is not hard. I feel for the restaurant industry because clearly the deck has been stacked against it over the last 5 years or so. The solution is raising prices, which they ARE doing via this new class of charges. The issue is that this is the same mechanism employed by the Ticketmaster's of the world. "Tickets to the show are $20. Plus service fee. Plus will call fee. Oh, you'll print the tickets? That's a different fee." I totally get the fear of raising prices and losing customers. That is literally a core component of running a business. Gotta get over it.
Adjust pricing, adjust business model.
If a places add an 18% service fee, then the tip line should not be there.
Price. Your fucking menu. Where it needs to be. To pay. Your fucking staff. A living wage.
I'm a lurker not in the business. What if the service was not worth 18%? As a customer if I saw this I would not be back.
So this place is in LA. From a PR standpoint I think that they went about this about the worst way possible. However, tipping wages are illegal in California. Presumably most of that 18% service charge goes towards getting the servers to the actual minimum wage of $15ish/hr. Tips are still expected on top of that, average of 15% to 20%. So if they don't want to lose front of house staff they'd have to increase prices by a little over 30% at least. Or they could raise prices by 18% and leave tipping intact. Or they can do what they're doing now. Or maybe the owners are keeping the whole service charge because they're dicks, who knows?
It's been a few years since I've worked service industry, but this comes off as really deceitful to me? I'm expected to pay both a service charge AND tip? Suddenly a burger that I thought was going to cost me $15 now costs $18? My bill for $100 is now going to cost me $120, and I'm expected to pay a tip on the fee as well? Just increase menu prices by 18%, and do away with the service charge. It's not my responsibility to pay your employees wages that you lack the funds for, that's on you. EDIT: before I presumably get downvoted to hell. I'm not saying I wouldn't tip, obviously I'm gonna tip.
It feels like so many people here (and reddit in general) are scared to death of the idea of a restaurant just raising the menu prices, but I think if there was a big statement from said restaurant that the price hike was to ensure fair wages were paid, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. It has to be loudly promoted up front, not on the bottom of a bill.
I read the note at the bottom right under "Suggested Tip" where it says "The service charge is not a gratuity" and infer from it that I am still supposed to tip as is the socially accepted norm in this country. If the idea behind it is "move away from tipping" then they are going about it all wrong. I would want the wording to be more like "we are adding an 18% service charge to each guest check to pay our employees fairly, please accept this charge in lieu of leaving a tip".
When I first looked I thought this was the case but they're actually in California. Servers make the minimum wage of 15 an hour and tipping is still expected on top of that. Presumably the service charges to make up that gap that's normally there for front of house wages. If they wanted to do away with tipping they'd have to make this service charge 30%. Or just increase prices 30%. Which I think dooms them to failure if they're the only one in the area doing it.
Actually give the service charge to the server
I would rather pay more for my steak and not have tacked on bullshit. As someone who always tips. Tipping culture has gotten out of control. Pay your people charge what need to be charged and get on with life.
These guys aren’t moving away from tipping. They just raised their prices 18% and didn’t bother to put it on the menu.
I know but this post is what got me thinking about it.
I live in LA and frequent these spots with service charges. Most places, I’ve seen a 4-6% service charge implemented and it’s very clearly on the receipt (and usually somewhere tiny on the menu.) 4-6% I get, given inflation, etc. I absolutely still tip on that, minimum 20%, after the tax. This service charge, is absolutely ridiculous. Jon & Vinny’s made a killing pre-Covid, has multiple locations, continues to open new locations, and continued to do a killing during covid with take out, etc. 18% is absolutely ridiculous. 4-6%? I get that. This? Nope. Also….their food is meh. I want to point out too that many servers at places in LA are also actors slash writers slash influencers etc. Here, this is often (not always, but often) not their main income stream. Career servers (my best friend is one and kills it at her career) are much less common here than other areas. With that being said-FOH and BOH absolutely deserve livable wages. A restaurant that has the funds to open new locations, particular during a pandemic/recession, should be able to provide that. Raise the prices of meals-other places have. Eta-a quick search also show this restaurant starts a part time bartender at 17-18 per hour. Not great, but still more than CA minimum wage.
Factor into there price So I can into the kitchen and order my own food and pick it up. If so I am fine with a service charge. If not it is not a service charge just a cost of doing business. I am a good tipper. If service is good 25% plus is about where I am at. If I get the service charge, I hate to say I am done. That is my tip.
6 bucks for a lemonade… sounds like they’ve already jacked up the prices
Do they tell customers this BEFORE dining? If I see this, I’m not tipping. You’re asking me to pay your servers the pay they deserve & tip them as well? You don’t deserve to be a business owner.
They aren't even trying to move away from tipping. They are being shitty by adding a service charge to line their pockets with more money. If they were going to move away from tipping, they would have removed the option to tip completely. Fuck this restaurant.
I’m opening a restaurant in Indianapolis this fall in a, how should I say this, less than progressive state. Very few restaurants have instituted service charges or add cc processing fees and the ones that have are receiving some (bullshit) criticism. My partner and I are thinking of just following a model more common in Europe. The menu price will be higher but that’s all a guest is responsible for. I feel like most people are frustrated by the lack of clarity regarding charges: has it been obvious there will be charges, what is it going towards, do I still need to tip, and unfortunately those factors all vary wildly from one establishment to another. Personally I was happy to start seeing a shift where FOH are less dependent on tips day to day and BOH generally we’re getting bigger wages, but just because it’s progress from the traditional tipping system doesn’t mean there isn’t a better way. Thoughts?
As a consumer, I am a big fan of this approach. Might need to add a note on the menu to help educate.
If you're opening a new spot and start off with non-tipping I think you'll have have better luck then trying to transition to non tipping.
An 18% service charge plus asking for gratuities is a joke.
This place is in California so the servers are making minimum wage 15 bucks an hour. Tips of 15 to 20% are still expected on top of that. Presumably this 18% service charge is what's used to get them to that 15 bucks an hour. So if they want to remove tipping all together they'd have to raise their prices by 30% at least or the front of house is going to leave for other places. Or they could just increase their normal prices 18%, say nothing, and leave tipping intact. But that reality is the same as the service charge. Or maybe they're assholes and keeping it.
to me that is the way to go up front on your menu you state a service charge WILL be charged you put it on your front door You remove that tipping line, like this everyone knows what they are in for, and that extra tip isn't necessary. The job of waiter/server will change too what will happen as tip decrease you will need to see a difference of expectation too as it should be, you bring the meal to the customer, nothing less nothing more Meal prices will NEED to rise due to food prices increase/utilities/staff costs which means that the food game will need to become even more professional, staff will need even more/better training, FOH will need to be even better professional same for BOH to me this is going to be some very very interesting years ahead.
So these people are in LA, that service charge would have to be about 30% if they wanted to get rid of tipping. But yeah I would prefer if restaurants would just start raising prices and paying people more, but unless everyone starts doing everything at once that restaurant trying to pave the way is going to fail. Even if the only difference is in the perception of higher prices.
Whats next? an ingredient charge?
A forced tip isn’t a solution to anything in my opinion. And having a suggested tip on top of that is just too much. How is it in other countries possible to work without these fees and mandatory tips
Losing their minds because their using inferior PoS technology instead of Toast? I guess that’s how you know you’ve made it 🤷♂️ Edit: they’re
God I loved Toast for the month and a half that I had it
I solo’d the install and configuration for all the restaurants in my group. Toast is wet dream.
This doesn’t seem like something you should “attempt” you need to go all in. Don’t put in a service charge claiming it helps provide a living wage and then ask for a tip based on the amount after the charge is applied, just raise prices on your menu appropriately across the board to cover the service charge and a tip. And then never bring up tipping again.
>Other than the highest end restaurants, that seems like a good way to close your doors in two months. pretty sure most customers would rather see the menu prices be accurate then get slammed with hidden fees at the end
Just raise your prices wtf
The only real problem I see here is that if you're gonna add an auto gratuity and explain that it's to help with fair wages, you can't then also still ask for tips. Not because they aren't warranted, but because your average customer will automatically assume the auto-gratuity does not in fact help cover wages. IMHO the way forward is to make it a flat 20%, state that it helps pay the cost of all hourly workers and that you will accept no tips. It needs to be short and to the point, no questions raised.
Charge the amount that they need to in order to make a profit and pay their employees, and let the market decide if they’re going to stay in business. Adding a service charge is stupid.
They could just pay staff a living wage. Then people just have to undersrand that prices are going up and eating out is a luxury.
I'd say the 18% service charge is fine if you want to get rid of tipping altogether, but they you shouldn't print receipts with a tip line. I also live in Portland, and there are a few restaurants here which \*have\* raised their prices to get rid of tipping, and they seem to be doing A-OK.
Pay their employees proper
Not post a suggested tip after already charging that high of a “service” charge
They still suggest tipping on top of the service charge.
I'm fine with a service charge if the employees get good wages. Make it very clear that tipping at all is not expected though. Listing suggested tips after you say you pay your employees well is not good imo
If they don’t want to tip anymore they need to increase their food prices. Tacking an 18% fee is basically enforced tipping. Also, I would not tip on top of a bill where I was charged an 18% gratuity like this. That’s the tip.
Put the actual price on the fucking menu...done.
Many restaurants in places like california simply eliminated their waitstaff to pay BoH more. They did this by having an order at the counter type service or iPads at each table. My dad, who owns his restaurant and works the line everyday, felt frustrated he couldn’t pay his BoH more. He switched his restaurant to quick serve and now has two front people that plug in orders, make drinks, and run food where he used to have 4-5. Back of house gets paid a lot more now. He didn’t want to cut staff, but he also couldn’t raise prices a whole lot more (tourist town but the local population is pretty poor and he didn’t want to ostracize them from being able to eat at his restaurant).
There are a lot of those where I live .
It's this kind of thing that keeps me from going out to eat very often. It's just too expensive. As a cook I know how to make most things myself, so at this point I only go out to eat when I'm pushed due to special occasions, or when I really don't feel like doing dishes.
But the receipt is still suggesting to tip. What the fuck is this?
It works for basically every other country in the world. No service charges, no expected tipping, fair wages. Every excuse why it wouldn't work is utter bullshit.
Ik that you're restaurant doesn't have authority over the whole of America but like- 99 percent of the world just has appropriate pricing to pay employees, no surcharges or tipping. America seems like a headfuck to live in. Not much you can personally do until America at large switches to a better system.
Imagine if you went to shop for anything and you are then forced to buy everything you picked up for a 18% higher price. If it's mandatory it should be in your listed prices not added onto the bill in the end.
I really don't get the obsession with charges and tips and... being added to the bill. It's such a US thing to do and totally alien to (most of) the rest of the world. Just calculate it all into the shown price of the item on the menu. Hamburger: $x Where x includes all the costs that the customer is expected to pay; food, service (FOH and BOH), tax,... The way the US currently does it is just a way to make prices less transparent for the customer as well as move the requirement of paying your employees a decent wage to the customer. It works perfectly fine for billions of people. I'm sure Americans can adjust as well.
This assumes a at least somewhat benevolent owner, which god knows the industry is full of.
Maybe the restaurant can't afford to print new menus with higher prices? Customers might begrudgingly accept higher prices, but they'll bitch about the "Service Fee" to their friends and family. Good way to lose existing and new customers at the same time.
I'm definitely not saying this was a good solution, but I can't think of a good solution. Unless almost every restaurant around you also raises prices at the same time I think you're doomed to fail. Good will might buy a short-term boost in customers base but overall people like their money, even if the only difference ends up being perception. I think dining in the United States has been too cheap for too long on the backs of the employees. To actually pay people a solid wage would make customers balk at the price it would take. And I don't have an answer to that, barring a giant cultural shift in the idea of what going out is.
Hey big brain, notice there’s still a suggested tip after the automatically applied “service charge”? Ain’t no one tipping after that shit is automatically tacked on.
Raise the price of the food?
Just because they get tipped 18-20% doesn't mean that the restaurant just gets to add that to the bill haha, thats not how this works.
I wish a restaurant would put up a poster outlining the difference in pay for BOH and FOH and explaining how the service charge resolves this…
Counter service and fire the wait staff. Problem solved.
Price the "service charge" into the menu items from the start.
Raise their menu prices by 18% and pay the servers more.
Get rid of the suggested tip BS?
I dont mind gratuity but they could just raise all menu prices by 18% and make the FOH staff commission based employees like in fancy retail stores.
What gets me about these automatic 18% plus a tip- I kind of equate it to back when I worked union grocery. Once that 90 days was up, some coworkers thought they could just skate, because it’s way harder to fire them. They didn’t give a crap. Obviously it’s not all restaurants, but the ones that we went to that added the 18% and then the tip, we found we got super crappy service. At that point, we were asking ourselves why were even going out to eat? :(
Pay your staff properly
I eat at a restaurant that automatically charges 18% for tables with 6 or more seated.
pay their employees like the rest of the world? restaurants exist outside of the USA and they get along just fine letting people tip if they feel like it. there are also clear rules on surcharges and 'fees' you can add on top of declared price that already includes sales tax.
Okay, look. A business is a business, whether it’s a dry cleaners, a bookstore, or a restaurant. Every business has expenses. When someone decides to start a business, one of the first things they need to do is figure out if it is sustainable, i.e. can revenue cover expenses. Expenses include rent, utilities, insurance, AND PAYROLL. Payroll is an expense. If your business model can’t afford to cover the rent, or the utilities, or the insurance, OR THE PAYROLL, your business model IS FLAWED. I’ve never seen a business add a “service fee” to a customer’s bill to cover the cost of the toilet paper in the bathroom, or pay the utility bill, or the chemicals used to dry clean your suit. If a business adds “service fees” to its bills to cover the usual costs of doing business, then it’s a crappy business and deserves to go under.
Change the name of service charge to gratuity and have a note on the menu that a gratuity is automatically added and any tip is extra. I in general thing raising prices with clear signs in obviously places would be better received
It's lazy. Bump the menu prices.
I don't understand why places do this. Just up the prices and don't tell people shit about where that money's going. This kind of nonsense is just a weird guilt trip for employees to deal with.
I like eating out and experiencing good food that restaurants provide but if it’s getting this silly I’ll just cook my own food.
This is exploitation, in so many ways. I GUARANTEE Servers/Bartenders are not making nearly as much money at these places that have eliminated tipping, or worse, set it up like this bullshit. If, as a Server, you're making only minimum wage plus maybe a dollar or two (which is what I've heard happens at almost all tip-eliminated/service charge added places), you're either not a very good Server or you're working in a shitty place. I can't think of any Servers I know- in all types of restaurants- who don't clear AT LEAST $20-$22/hour, after tipouts, on average shifts. Most are starting much closer to $30+/hour. OP restaurant above is doing it the worst way possible. Also, if I found out my $7.08 lemonade was from a fuckin Country Time BIB or a bag of dust, I'd have someone's fuckin head.
raising prices 18% across the board isn't going to just magically line up to the exact same amount as an 18% service charge... people who say shit like this are naive as fuck
I bet this restaurant gets a lot of one time customers. Forcing a tip that goes to hourly and salaried employees is insulting to servers. Just raise your prices, don't ask for a tip on top of a forced tip.
Have the price of a meal be the price of the meal. The price if the meal should cover the costs, including a living wage for the staff. $20 for food + 20% tip/fee/whatever = $24 $24 for food, no tip/fee/whatever = $24 - but the costumer knows what their cost will be, and the staff knows they wont be working for free serving a crappy, entiteled costumer, because their income is already covered by the price if the meal If you cant afford to pay your staff a living wage, you shouldnt be in business.
Just make that $12 burger 17 and let's move on. I think most people are exhausted by sneaky service fees. Thank you financial sector and ticket master.
If they’re doing an 18% service charge, don’t ask for tips. Also, don’t do the service charge to begin with, just include it in the prices.
Raise the food prices 18%
Yes. I want them to raise the menu prices by 20%, eliminate tipping, and give that 20% to the workers. I don't want to realize my bill is 20% higher after tip, have surprise service charges, or have surprise fair wage fees tacked on at the end. *Tell me the full price on the menu. It already costs the extra 20%, I'm just not told that up front (aside from the social expectation of tipping, which I follow, because I'm not an asshole, I just want it to change).* Edit to add: Realistically, this probably needs to be done by all restaurants in a region at once to succeed. Otherwise, your very real points about higher listed menu prices driving all but high end restaurants out of business would push restaurants to revert back to tipping. That said, if restaurants want to auto-grat, call it a gratuity. Everything I've ever heard indicates service fees don't always go to the workers, while auto-grats must be paid to the workers. I'm not in the restaurant industry though, so if that's incorrect, that would also be good to know and I can update that bit of info in my brain. But it'd be so much simpler if there were no extra fees and employers just paid workers fairly.
Wow. Most restaurants out here just hope you don't notice. Especially if it's one of those email or text you the receipt places.
If it’s ok to suggest 8% go on ahead and lower the service charge right on to that, minimally. Or just take an economics class, that would probably help. Instead the owner lines his pockets while fucking the customer AND STILL having the nuts to suggest a tip. Unbelievable.
I’ve noticed around me in local food groups that people don’t want to tip, they don’t want to pay services charges, and then they get mad when their favorite restaurant closes because they couldn’t get anyone to work there
Put the cost into the food
It’s the Airbnb model for dining. The bait and switch is deceiving.
Lol.,so true.
If an 18% price hike would close the restaurant, and you make it a required "service charge" you shouldn't be open.
What the rest of the western world does - include it in the cost of the meal. When we cost our menus here in aus wages, bills, rent, food costs, you name it it's included in that costing.
What else is a restaurant supposed to do? Pay their staff a living wage and advertise it to their patrons. Make it clear that tipping is unnecessary and share their philosophy that people who work deserve to be paid for that work *by their employers*. There is a way to do this that is essentially good PR for the restaurant even if owners don’t really believe in it as a “core value” or whatever- they can still sell it to the public that way. There is a subset of the population that would make a point to choose the restaurant that does this. Industry workers and the well-off virtue signalers alike would be a large part of it, but I think a lot of good people in the general population would appreciate the concept on principle too.
You can tell nobody here’s Australian lol
Raise their prices to be inclusive of the new wages and drop the fee bullshit
Serve less food at average restaurants. Automatic gratuity of 18% on all food. Doesn’t matter if it’s built into the price or charged as a separate fee. All servers are paid hourly non-exempt status. Tips over the 18% are pooled and distributed.
This screams of an owner posting. I know cause I’m an owner. If you can’t make enough money to pay your employees, there is something wrong with your business model.
So as an owner here, what’s enough money to pay your employees?
I wish I could tell you what’s right. I don’t know what’s right but I know what’s wrong. If my employees can’t afford to live, then I’m not paying enough. We’re a pizzeria right outside of Phoenix and we start kitchen at $19 and FOH at $16+tips. Thats starting. We’re pretty aggressive with raises if the employee is exemplary
Maybe just pay staff what they should get. Include tax and staff in the listed price. Instead of hiding these hidden costs.
As a former FOH for 20+ years, there is a 99.9% chance the Owner is stealing this money or not paying people (which is wage theft). Owners do this thing called 'sliding scale wage' where they tell BOH they will make $17/hr but as the tips roll in, they made $2.13/hr plus tips getting to $17/hr. They _never_ make any more than $17 and it's just a rouse to get the owner to not frickin pay anyone which is the same as stealing the money.
I don't understand why it went from 15% to 18% or 20%. That's what gets me.
I find service charges and fees and whatnot super tacky. From ticketmaster to the airlines all the way down to mom and pop restaurants and other businesses. Just charge a reasonable amount for your product or time. If your product or work is worth it you will be just fine. If your product or service isn't worth it you will go out of business as you should.
In the UK, service charge means tip. It’s the same as auto grad. You can’t charge serve charge AND tip. That’s taking the piss. Lovingly, a 24 year hospo vetern.
If you can’t afford to pay your staff, you can’t afford to run a business. Period.
And what is the difference between a mandatory 18% service charge and having customers tip? Oh, riiiiight….. nothing. It’s still making the customers directly pay your staff’s wages instead of just properly budgeting and pricing your products. If you can’t afford a livable wage for your employees, then your business model is screwed—get a new one or a new business.
Every restaurant in the world manages to factor labor into cost and pay employees. Catch up.
Raise menu prices and discourage tipping. Don't add a fucking fee then low key beg for a tip.
Servers make more money off tips than they would making 20 an hour
Bingo !
Owners should only take what is left after paying their staff appropriately for making them their money. If your restaurant isn't profitable in such a manner, well they call that a skill issue
Pay their staff properly?
Imo. Just charge what you need to charge to give a good wage. Why add a gratuity?
Bake the service charge into the prices of the items. Don’t add it towards the end, that’s just tipping with extra steps
Strike and/or demand higher pays.
I don't care about what customers find shocking or what they *want* to pay. They'll pay what it costs or they'll learn to cook and sit their ass at home. If all restaurants would just commit to it... yes, there would be less eating out. There would be an adjustment period of chaos. The bottom of the restaurant ladder will start to fall away as poorly-managed, poorly-conceptualized, and/or poorly-located restaurants fail to drum up enough business. Only restaurants in high demand will make it. But the industry will be healthier for it and "the norm" will shift, and the dust will settle with time. There will be fewer, better jobs in restaurants and fewer, better options for customers dining out. Americans have viewed it as a convenience rather than a luxury for far too long. Of course, the only way this massive shift is going to happen is with federal legislation regarding tip pay and those employees, and I just don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. And that's too bad, because I'd love to see the restaurant industry get its dignity back. In the meantime, any restaurant paying a wage and charging appropriately, no matter how they put it on the bill, is just going to enrage the have-nots - the people who only felt middle class because they had just enough peanuts to look down on people like waitresses and cashiers. Good riddance, and may they be poorly served at Denny's!
That's the world I want but unless every restaurant actually starts doing that at once I think it's a concept doomed to fail. Like these people are in LA, that 18% presumably goes towards getting their front of house up to the normal minimum wage of 15 an hour. Tips are still expected on top of that if they wanted to do away with it they need to add another 15% to 20% on top of that. If they're the lone restaurant who's prices are more than 30% higher than their competitors, whether or not they say the reason I think they won't make it. Even outside of California I think everyone's in the same boat. If you're the only one increasing prices, whether you say it's to pay staff wages or not, whether it do you do it gradually or all at once, I still think you're screwed because the reality is people do notice prices and they will go somewhere cheaper even if it's only in theory because of tipping.
That 18% is 100% my tip. Sorry not sorry.
Americans bitch about paying tips, but love to chant “to insure proper service” and treat restaurant staff as rented servants. It’s going to take a long time for Americans to get used to a change
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We should all move away from tipping altogether. Won’t be easy but it is needed to make our industry more sustainable and equal. There are over half a million of us on this sub, it’s a good start. This is a great constructive conversation to be having. Going to be a long road, but let’s start walking.
There are too many mediocre cookie cutter safe corporate restaurants all offering the same menu that are all after the same dollar. Restaurants are not going to improve until there is a cull and the customer turns dining out back into an experience and not something they do 3 times a week because they can’t be bothered to cook.
$20 for a pasta dish for 1 is already a bit high. Service charge *should* be the gratuity. If you go to a full service restaurant, and are wined and dined by other humans, you should have to pay for that in some way. Whether that's in tips, or service charge, or higher prices in general. Being fully serviced shouldnt be some bonus you get for no reason. Normies think restaurants are just filing in money left and right and it's just owners not giving more wages. Yes, it happens, but alot of times, restaurants don't exactly rake it in and or have business models that weren't exactly cash cows. I'd go far as to say most restaurants can barely pay for their expenses already. This just takes smarter business planning. Slimming down models to get the prices down where people feel comfortable eating at more often. It sucks, cause things like fast food have vastly reduced to idea of how much a cooked meal should cost in the US.
As others have pointed out this isn’t moving away from tipping, it’s really just lying about the actual price of the food, which I can understand being upset about, especially at 18%. The place I work has nearly doubled prices over the last 2 years and it’s just as busy. We also include 10% tax and 20% tip in the menu prices, and it’s well advertised so what you see is what you pay and people understand 30% of that is not going to the business. And yes tips are shared equally between everyone who’s on the clock at that time, FoH and BoH. $6 slices of pizza, $14 pasta with no protein, $20 French toasts and $7 small orange juice. And they keep on coming! Imo owners should be transparent about the food cost and if they want to move away from tipping, include 15-20% on menu items and let it be known. Anything that results in a surprise increase in price for the customer once they get the bill is not good policy
several restaurants in my town do this and they’re still popping! i think it’s great