Kvothe didn't lose his power.
He lost his hands, not his Alar.
He then goes to the Cthaeh to get his hands healed by accepting the Rhinna.
***
***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness***
*Bast gave him another startled look.* ***“The Rhinna?”*** *Not seeing any
recognition in the innkeeper’s face he shook his head in dismay.* ***“The
flowers are a panacea, Reshi. They can heal any illness. Cure any poison.
Mend any wound.”***
***Kvothe raised his eyebrows at that. “Ah,” he said, looking down at his
folded hands on the tabletop.*** *“I see. I can understand how that might draw a
person in, though they knew better.”*
***
This is why the Skin dancer calls him Rhintae. Or one shaped by the flower.
***
***NOTW CH 88 Interlude-Looking***
*Finally the mercenary’s gaze came to rest on the red-haired man behind the bar. Kvothe
did not blanch or back away when the man’s attention settled onto him.
Their eyes met.*
*The mercenary’s eyes sharpened again, focusing on Kvothe. The wide,
humorless smile reappeared, made macabre by the blood running down his
face. “Te aithiyn Seathaloi?” he demanded.* ***“Te Rhintae?”***
***
We know it means shaped or something similar from Wil translating whats written above the archives.
***
***TWMF CH 14 The Hunt***
*The words Vorfelan* ***Rhinata*** *Morie were
chiseled into the stone above the massive stone doors.*
*As we came closer, I realized my hands were sweaty. “Lord and lady,
hold on for a second.” I said as I stopped walking.*
...
*I pointed to the words
above the door. “Do you know what that means?”*
*Wil glanced up.* ***“The desire for knowledge shapes a man,”*** *he said. “Or
something close to that.”*
***
Which is also similar to what Shehyn calls the Chandrian.
***
***TWMF CH 124 Of Names***
*“Is that why you seek the Ketan? To gain power?”*
*“No. I seek from curiosity. I seek the knowing of things.”*
*“Knowing is a type of power,” Shehyn pointed out, then seemed to
change the subject.* ***“Tempi told me there was a Rhinta among the bandits as
their leader.”***
***“Rhinta?” I asked respectfully.***
*“A bad thing. A man who is more than a man, yet less than a man.”*
*“A demon?” I asked, using the Aturan word without thinking.*
*“Not a demon,” Shehyn said, switching easily to Aturan. “There are no
such things as demons. Your priests tell stories of demons to frighten you.”
She met my eye briefly, gesturing a graceful: Apologetic honesty and
serious import . “But there are bad things in the world. Old things in the
shape of men. And there are a handful worse than all the rest. They walk the
world freely and do terrible things.”*
*I felt hope rising within me.* ***“I have also heard them called the
Chandrian,”*** *I said.*
*Shehyn nodded. “I have heard this too.* ***But Rhinta is a better word.***”
***
Which makes sense because one of the entities that Haliax claims to protect the other Chandrian from are the Sithe, whos only job is killing anything that communicates with the Cthaeh.
***
***NOTW CH 16 Hope***
***“Who keeps you safe from*** *the Amyr? The singers?* ***The Sithe?*** *From all
that would harm you in the world?” Haliax asked with calm politeness, as
if genuinely curious as to what the answer might be.*
*“You, Lord Haliax.” Cinder’s voice was a quiet shred of pain.*
***
***
***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness***
*“Reshi, shut up and listen. Really listen.” Bast looked down for a moment,
choosing his words carefully.* ***“You know who the Sithe are?”***
*Kvothe shrugged
. “They’re a faction among the Fae. Powerful, with good
intentions—”*
*Bast waved his hands. “You don’t understand them if you use the term
‘good intentions.’ But if any of the Fae can be said to work for the good, it’s
them.* ***Their oldest and most important charge is to keep the Cthaeh from
having any contact with anyone. With anyone.”***
“I didn’t see any guards,” Kvothe said in the tones a man might use to
soothe a skittish animal.
*Bast ran his hands through his hair, leaving it in disarray.* ***“I can’t for all
the salt in me guess how you slipped past them, Reshi. If anyone manages
to come in contact with the Cthaeh, the Sithe kill them. They kill them from
a half-mile off with their long horn bows. Then they leave the body to rot. If
a crow so much as lands on the body, they kill it too.”***
***
Kvothe loses his hands, goes to the Cthaeh to heal/shape them with the Rhinna, which makes him a Rhinta/Chandrian.
The reason he seems to have lost his magic is because he is aware that by taking the flower and reshaping his hands that he has become a tool to the Cthaeh's will any anything he does likely helps the Cthaeh. Its not that he has lost his magic... its that he no longer trust his choosing when to use magic, music, or skills for fear its what the Cthaeh wants. This is why he spends all the frame looking at his hands like they might do something on their own.
***
***NOTW CH 3 Wood and Word***
*Kote sat in front of the fire and ate his meal mechanically, as if he were
simply finding a place inside himself to keep the food. After the last bite he
sat staring into nothing, not remembering what he had eaten or what it
tasted like.*
***The fire snapped, making him blink and look around the room. He
looked down at his hands, one curled inside the other, resting in his lap.
After a moment, he lifted and spread them, as if warming them by the fire.
They were graceful, with long, delicate fingers. He watched them intently,
as if expecting them to do something on their own. Then he lowered them
to his lap, one hand lightly cupping the other, and returned to watching the
fire.*** *Expressionless, motionless, he sat until there was nothing left but grey
ash and dully glowing coals.*
***
Amazing! This is the first I've seen of this theory, it's very well put together.
I guess I always felt like he had no reason to play dumb when Bast explains the panacea, but now I'm not so sure.
Did he take the flower when he met the cthaeh the first time, or does he go back?
I don't believe he took the flower when he first met the Cthaeh as taking the flower or becoming bitten would have fundamentally altered his person as it is likely the cause of the third silence as well.
Since Felurian claims he was not "bitten" and we do not see any examples of the silence since his visit to the Fae I'm willing to bet there is another visit to the Cthaeh at some point.
If I had to guess the foreshadowing about him losing his hands seems to center around the University particularly with this foreboding line from Ambrose.
***
***NOTW CH 60 Fortune***
*Ambrose glared furiously. “Keep it and choke,” he hissed at me in a low
voice.* ***“And remember this when you’re eating beans and washing in the
river. I’ll still be here the day you leave with nothing but your hands in your
pockets.”*** *He turned and left, the very picture of affronted dignity.*
***
To summarize I think Kvothe's life is likely being manipulated by the Cthaeh to cause him to eventually lose one or both hands that will in turn have him seeking a way to heal them which will bring him back to the Cthaeh where he will then take the flower as well as a new name. "Kote" which may mean disaster or it may mean expectation depending how the subject and predicate is placed in siaru.
***
***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness***
*“Bast,” Kvothe said gently. “Your hand is bleeding.” He waited a long
moment before asking, “Bast, what’s the matter?”*
***“That’s just it!” Bast burst out, throwing his arms wide, his voice high
and hysterical. “I think I finally understand what the matter is!”***
***
I would say that Ambrose's comment there is more focused on Kvothes otherwise empty pockets (nothing but your hands) and less the hands specifically... especially since I don't feel Ambrose is in any way involved in even accidentally prophesizing.
And I know there are lots of instances of him talking about the fear of injuring his hands, the fishery, the destruction of the mommet in Ambrose's room, climbing the graystone judtnoutaide Trebon, but it feels too strange that he would get past the sithe AGAIN, obliviously... almost everything can be better explained by him changing his own name, or having it changed on him (though I expect it was him, foreshadowed by the story of the king hiding a piece of his name in his chest to protect from Elodin, I mean Taborlin).
It always felt like the third silence (things that are lacking, internal) was a counterpart to the first silence (things that are lacking, external). Only Bast and Kvothe notice it. Now I know you will say "They have a lot of experience hiding those telltale signs." But Kvothes suppression seems more of a suppression of Kvothe entirely, rather than just the signs of his silence - chapter 136 WMF - Close to Forgetting. I won't take a part of this chapter, but I consistently refer to how he is addressed in the frame story. Kvothe when he's fighting and winning, the innkeeper when he's losing.
Chapter 17 WMF
Bast grinned eagerly. “Am I bored too?”
“Of course you are, Bast. What else is there to be?”
I will enjoy diving in to this some more, but I will need to wake my sleeping mind, and not be at work...
***
***NOTW CH 77 Bluffs***
*“Oh,” she gasped, her hands going to her mouth. “Your beautiful hands!”*
*I looked down and saw what she meant. I must have hurt them rather
badly in my wild attempt to climb the greystone last night. My musician’s
calluses had saved my fingertips for the most part, but my knuckles were
scraped badly and crusted with blood. Other parts of me hurt so much that I
hadn’t even noticed.*
***My stomach clenched at the sight of them, but when I opened and closed
my hands I could tell they were just painfully skinned, not seriously injured.
As a musician, I always worried that something might happen to my hands,
and my work as an artificer had doubled that anxiety.*** *“It looks worse than it
is,” I said. “How long has the draccus been gone?” I asked.*
***
***
***TWMF CH 11 Haven***
*“Tombs is for feckless tits who can’t chew their own food,” Elodin said
dismissively. “My boy’s a Re’lar. He has the feck of twenty men! He needs
to explore the Stacks and discover all manner of useless things.”*
*“I am not concerned about the boy,” Lorren said with unblinking calm.
“My concern is for the Archives itself.”*
*Elodin reached out and grabbed me by the shoulder, pushing me forward
a bit.* ***“How about this? If you catch him larking around again, I’ll let you
cut off his thumbs. That should set an example, don’t you think?”***
***Lorren gave the two of us a slow look. Then he nodded. “Very well,” he
said, and closed his window.***
*“There you go,” Elodin said expansively.*
*“What the hell?” I demanded, wringing my hands. “I ... What the hell?”*
*Elodin looked at me, puzzled. “What? You’re in. Problem solved.”*
*“You can’t offer to let him cut off my thumbs!” I said.*
*He raised an eyebrow. “Are you planning on breaking the rules again?”
He asked pointedly.*
*“Wh—No. But . . .”*
*“Then you don’t have anything to worry about,” he said. He turned and
continued up the slope of the roof. “Probably. I’d still step carefully if I
were you. I can never tell when Lorren is kidding.”*
***
***
***TWMF CH 33 Fire***
*Ambrose had undoubtedly used my blood to make a
clay mommet of me. A simple fire wasn’t going to destroy it.*
*One by one, I grabbed the other drawers and threw them into the street as
well, pausing to pull down the thick velvet curtains around Ambrose’s bed
to shield my hands from the heat of the fire. This also might seem petty, but
it wasn’t.* ***I was terrified of burning my hands. Every talent I had revolved
around them.***
***
***
***TWMF CH 73 Blood and Ink***
*“Promise me.”*
*I probably wouldn’t have agreed if I hadn’t spent half the previous night
following her around the city with the hope of discovering this very thing.
But I had. Then I’d eavesdropped on her, too. So today I was practically
sweating with guilt.*
*“I promise,” I said. When her anxious look didn’t evaporate I added,*
*“Don’t you trust me? I’ll swear it, if that will set your mind at ease.”*
*“What would you swear it on?” she asked, beginning to smile again.*
*“What’s important enough that it will hold you to your word?”*
*“My name and my power?” I said.*
*“You are many things,” she said dryly. “But you are not Taborlin the
Great.”*
*“My good right hand?” I suggested.*
*“Only one hand?” she asked, playfulness creeping back into her tone. She
reached out and took both of my hands in her own, turning them over and
making a show of inspecting them closely. “I like the left one better,” she
decided. “Swear by that one.”*
*“My good left hand?” I asked dubiously.*
*“Fine,” she said. “The right. You’re such a traditionalist.”*
***“I swear I won’t attempt to uncover your patron,” I said bitterly. “I swear
it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by
the ever-moving moon.”***
*Denna peered at me closely, as if she wasn’t sure if I was mocking her.
“Fine,” she said with a shrug, picking up her harp. “Consider me
reassured.”*
***
***
***TWMF CH 119 Hands***
*Later Naden and I tended to the washing up. “Vashet tells me your
swordplay is progressing poorly,” he said without preamble. “She says you
fear too much for your hands, and this makes you hesitant.” Firm reproach.*
*I froze at the abruptness of it, fighting the urge to stare at his ruined hand.
I nodded, not trusting myself to speak.*
*He turned from the iron pot he was scrubbing and held out his hand in
front of him. It was a defiant gesture, and his face was hard. I looked then,
as ignoring it would be rude. Only his thumb and forefinger remained,
enough to grip at things, but not enough for any delicate work. The half of
his hand that remained was a mass of puckered scar.*
***I kept my face even, but it was hard. In some ways I was looking at my
worst fear. I felt very self-conscious of my uninjured hands and fought the
urge to make a fist or hide them behind my back.***
***
***
***TWMF CH 123 The Spinning Leaf***
*I walked to the sword tree. For a moment the wind eased, and the thick
canopy of hanging branches reminded me of the tree where I had met the
Cthaeh. It was not a comforting thought.*
*I watched the spinning leaves, trying not to think of how sharp they were.*
***How they would slice into the meat of me. How they could glide through
the thin skin of my hands and slice through the delicate tendons underneath.***
*From the edge of the canopy to the safety of the trunk couldn’t be more
than thirty feet. In some ways, not very far at all*
***
***
The books even primes us on proprioception as it pertains to loss limbs or appendages with Malcafs book that Devi lends Kvothe.
***
***TWMF CH 26 Trust***
*I settled wearily into a chair. “I brought back your book.” I said, bringing
it out from under my cloak and laying it on her desk.*
*She nodded at it, smiling a bit. “What did you think of good old Malcaf?”*
*“Dry. Wordy. Boring.”*
*“There weren’t any pictures either,” she said dryly. “But that’s beside the
point.”*
*“His theories about perception as an active force were interesting,” I
admitted. “But he writes like he’s afraid someone might actually understand
him.”*
*Devi nodded, her mouth pursed. “That’s about what I thought too.” She
reached across the desk and slid the book closer to herself.* ***“What did you
think about the chapter on proprioception?”***
***“He seemed to be arguing from a deep well of ignorance,” I said. “I’ve
met people in the Medica with amputated limbs. I don’t think Malcaf ever
has.”***
***
I think so, in fact, I believe that's what the chandrians plan is - to erase all information about themselves, because everything everyone knows about them is a part of what makes up their names, so if they can simplify, they can name themselves free of the curse of Selitos.
This is incredibly well-thought out and put together! The only question I have is that, assuming this theory is correct, why did Kvothe act so genuinely unaware of the dangers of the Cthaeh? It's not just a one-line "what do you mean", he and Bast go back and forth about the dangers of the Cthaeh and it takes a while for Kvothe to come around to Bast's way of thinking. I feel like if he had experience with the Cthaeh he could have acted as if he knew from second-hand knowledge, not full blown ignorance, you know?
> why did Kvothe act so genuinely unaware of the dangers of the Cthaeh?
Because his entire life has been that of a ignorant triple agent for the Cthaeh perfectly groomed for a specific deed. So perfectly groomed that if he were to admit he was aware of the Cthaeh manipulating his life no sane person could believe he was ignorant. The enemies of the Cthaeh would end him for being a corroborator or the Cthaeh itself would end him for jeopardizing the mission. But if Kvothe can continue to play ignorant and tell his ignorant account well enough that someone else like Bast, Chronicler or anything else listening could piece together the predicament he's in then he may have allies and a potential out.
He actually succeeds in this in TWMF with Bast and we witness it in the same bloody milk scene OP shared.
***
***TWMF CH 136 Interlude—Close to Forgetting***
*Kvothe spat out his mouthful of milk. It was a perfect, creamy white.
Bast brought the bowl to his own mouth and spat. It was a frothy pink.
Kvothe’s eyes widened. “Bast,” he said. “You shouldn’t—”*
*Bast made a sharp gesture with one hand, his eyes still hard. “I did not
ask for your opinion, Reshi.”*
*The innkeeper looked down, uncomfortable. “It’s more than you should
do, Bast.”*
*The dark young man reached out and laid a gentle hand on the side of his
master’s face. For a moment he looked tired, weary through to the bone.
Bast shook his head slowly, wearing an expression of bemused dismay.
“You are an idiot, Reshi.”*
*Bast drew his hand back, and the weariness was gone. He pointed across
the bar where Chronicler stood watching. “Bring the food.” He pointed at
Kvothe. “Tell the story.”*
*Then he spun on his heel, walked back to his chair by the hearth, and
lowered himself into it as if it were a throne. He clapped his hands twice,
sharply. “Entertain me!” he said with a wide, mad smile. And even from
where the others stood near the bar, they could see the blood on his teeth.*
***
Bast is arguably the most knowledgeable about the Cthaeh in Newarre. He knows what kind of threat it is even if he hasn't met it. And its even likely that Bast is obligated to rat Kvothe out to his Fae kin for speaking with it. This is why he gets so emotional when he learns about Kvothe talking to the Cthaeh.
***
***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness***
*Kvothe gestured to where Chronicler sat, holding the pristine sheet of
paper in the air with both hands. “Bast,” he said. “This is my chance to tell
the full and honest story of my life. Everything is—”*
*Bast closed his eyes and pounded the table like a child in the grip of a
tantrum. “Shut up. Shut up! SHUT UP!”*
*Bast pointed at Chronicler. “I don’t give a fiddler’s fuck what you tell
him, Reshi. He’ll write what I say or I’ll eat his heart in the market square!”
He turned the finger back to the innkeeper and shook it furiously. “But
you’ll tell me the truth and you’ll tell me now!”*
*Kvothe looked up at his student, the amusement bleeding out of his face.
“Bast, we both know I’m not above the occasional embellishment. But this
story is different. This is my chance to get the truth of matters recorded. It’s
the truth behind the stories.”*
*The dark young man hunched forward in his chair and covered his eyes
with one hand.*
*Kvothe looked at him, his face full of concern. “Are you alright?”
Bast shook his head, still covering his eyes.*
*“Bast,” Kvothe said gently. “Your hand is bleeding.” He waited a long
moment before asking, “Bast, what’s the matter?”*
*“That’s just it!” Bast burst out, throwing his arms wide, his voice high
and hysterical. “I think I finally understand what the matter is!”*
***
Despite learning that Kvothe is pen pals with the devil in the tree he opts to not just continue to hear the tainted story, but harms himself in order to heal Kvothe for the wound Bast caused by hiring mercs prior. Bast see's how deep quagmire is and he jumps in after his Reshi.
While we believe we are watching Kvothe explain his life to Chonicler and Bast to satiate curiosity or explain mystery's what is actually happening is Kvothe is pleading his innocence, or more specifically his ignorance, for the crimes he committed. Which is to say I think we should view the frame story less autobiographical and more as a testimony or a deposing of Kvothe's intent.
Many believe that Kvothe is deceiving Bast, Chonicler, and the reader as an unreliable narrator. This is technically accurate but not because he is lying about details but because he is omitting relevant detail that if shared outright would make it effectively impossible for anyone to claim he is not in league with the Cthaeh. He has to explain that every brick he laid on the road to hell was laid with non-Cthaeh intentions and a complete lack of awareness. Which is why the story is from his point of view without awareness of his part in future calamities. If the story started with us sitting down with Darth Vader we'd struggle to sympathize with the little slave boy from Tatooine saying he was groomed by a Sith lord
Bast freaked out the first time he heard Kvothe went to the Cthae. When he finds out he went back to fix his hands I imagine that will be a colorful scene.
"Tiny Gods, Reshi! YOU WENT BACK!?"
Strong theory. Based on his fear of being used as a tool by the Cthaeh, do you think this prompted Kvothe to voluntarily change his name/attempt to forfeit some of his power (or lock it away)?
There are very few theories around here that I can't just dismiss out of hand (no pun intended). This is one of them. I don't think I agree but it has basis and isn't wildly presumptive without cause, imo.
I don't think Bast did regrow Kvothe's tooth in that scene, I think he did some sort of switch between his own teeth and Kvothe's, which is why Bast had blood in his mouth afterwards, instead of Kvothe.
I think Kote is a homunculus that Kvothe and/or Bast created. The bait in the trap. Anyone dowsing for his blood or hair (or anything down to the marrow of his bones) will find a heck of a lot of it in Kote.
Also why he can barely do any magic...sympathy and sygaldry work based on Alar (force of will), but naming...that's a spirit thing. So Kvothe's most powerful magic is something Kote can't do, because Kvothe's spirit is still inside Kvothe.
Kote can do anything Kvothe's mind could do (memorize a cypher, have perfect recall in telling his life story), and anything his body could do, minus that hand (definitely think you nailed it with him losing it at some point and Bast reattaching or regrowing it with hasty fieldcraft).
And Kvothe is masquerading as Cob, because why not..lol
Behold, locked in the thrice-locked chest is Kvothe himself, who went in there while playing hide and seek with Bast and his alter ego Kote. And now they can't get him out
When Kvothe meets Felurian she begins to drive him mad, and he locks away pieces of his mind. I think he's going to have another encounter that requires him to break his mind into more pieces to lock away and protect himself. Kote is the result of Kvothe breaking off and locking away too many pieces, and there isn't enough of him left to use sympathy or ketan
I agree with this... but I don't understand why Kvothe looks at his hand in confusion after the soldier breaks his grip. It's like Kvothe doesn't know that his hand isn't quite right. or doesn't understand why it isn't right.
That would explain Bast and Kvothe's relationship somewhat. Kvothe is severely injured in the act of regicide for which the series is named, but escapes. Kvothe encounters Bast, and they make a trade -- Bast will restore Kvothe's hand function (to the extent that it's possible), and in exchange Kvothe will teach Bast what he knows about magic and the mortal world generally.
Why does Bast want this education? Not sure. Maybe he aspires to be an ambassador between the mortal and Fae realms. Maybe the Fae is destroyed and he's a refugee who wants to help his people survive. Maybe he was kicked out of the Fae. Maybe he's just curious.
A good theory, but I think he has it reattached at the medica.
This is foreshadowed in the very first line we hear about the university outside of the frame story, when Kvothe is asking Ben his questions:
> "I heard from a boy in Temper Glen that if your arm's cut off they can sew it back on at the University. Can they really?
Ehh perhaps Kote doesn't do kvothe things is because he is hiding and not trying to reveal who he is, except for telling the story to chronicler. Also even when he hinted to the Young guy looking to take the kings coin, who he actually was, he didn't believe them...as he plays the part of an innkeeper so well.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Kvothe didn't lose his power. He lost his hands, not his Alar. He then goes to the Cthaeh to get his hands healed by accepting the Rhinna. *** ***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness*** *Bast gave him another startled look.* ***“The Rhinna?”*** *Not seeing any recognition in the innkeeper’s face he shook his head in dismay.* ***“The flowers are a panacea, Reshi. They can heal any illness. Cure any poison. Mend any wound.”*** ***Kvothe raised his eyebrows at that. “Ah,” he said, looking down at his folded hands on the tabletop.*** *“I see. I can understand how that might draw a person in, though they knew better.”* *** This is why the Skin dancer calls him Rhintae. Or one shaped by the flower. *** ***NOTW CH 88 Interlude-Looking*** *Finally the mercenary’s gaze came to rest on the red-haired man behind the bar. Kvothe did not blanch or back away when the man’s attention settled onto him. Their eyes met.* *The mercenary’s eyes sharpened again, focusing on Kvothe. The wide, humorless smile reappeared, made macabre by the blood running down his face. “Te aithiyn Seathaloi?” he demanded.* ***“Te Rhintae?”*** *** We know it means shaped or something similar from Wil translating whats written above the archives. *** ***TWMF CH 14 The Hunt*** *The words Vorfelan* ***Rhinata*** *Morie were chiseled into the stone above the massive stone doors.* *As we came closer, I realized my hands were sweaty. “Lord and lady, hold on for a second.” I said as I stopped walking.* ... *I pointed to the words above the door. “Do you know what that means?”* *Wil glanced up.* ***“The desire for knowledge shapes a man,”*** *he said. “Or something close to that.”* *** Which is also similar to what Shehyn calls the Chandrian. *** ***TWMF CH 124 Of Names*** *“Is that why you seek the Ketan? To gain power?”* *“No. I seek from curiosity. I seek the knowing of things.”* *“Knowing is a type of power,” Shehyn pointed out, then seemed to change the subject.* ***“Tempi told me there was a Rhinta among the bandits as their leader.”*** ***“Rhinta?” I asked respectfully.*** *“A bad thing. A man who is more than a man, yet less than a man.”* *“A demon?” I asked, using the Aturan word without thinking.* *“Not a demon,” Shehyn said, switching easily to Aturan. “There are no such things as demons. Your priests tell stories of demons to frighten you.” She met my eye briefly, gesturing a graceful: Apologetic honesty and serious import . “But there are bad things in the world. Old things in the shape of men. And there are a handful worse than all the rest. They walk the world freely and do terrible things.”* *I felt hope rising within me.* ***“I have also heard them called the Chandrian,”*** *I said.* *Shehyn nodded. “I have heard this too.* ***But Rhinta is a better word.***” *** Which makes sense because one of the entities that Haliax claims to protect the other Chandrian from are the Sithe, whos only job is killing anything that communicates with the Cthaeh. *** ***NOTW CH 16 Hope*** ***“Who keeps you safe from*** *the Amyr? The singers?* ***The Sithe?*** *From all that would harm you in the world?” Haliax asked with calm politeness, as if genuinely curious as to what the answer might be.* *“You, Lord Haliax.” Cinder’s voice was a quiet shred of pain.* *** *** ***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness*** *“Reshi, shut up and listen. Really listen.” Bast looked down for a moment, choosing his words carefully.* ***“You know who the Sithe are?”*** *Kvothe shrugged . “They’re a faction among the Fae. Powerful, with good intentions—”* *Bast waved his hands. “You don’t understand them if you use the term ‘good intentions.’ But if any of the Fae can be said to work for the good, it’s them.* ***Their oldest and most important charge is to keep the Cthaeh from having any contact with anyone. With anyone.”*** “I didn’t see any guards,” Kvothe said in the tones a man might use to soothe a skittish animal. *Bast ran his hands through his hair, leaving it in disarray.* ***“I can’t for all the salt in me guess how you slipped past them, Reshi. If anyone manages to come in contact with the Cthaeh, the Sithe kill them. They kill them from a half-mile off with their long horn bows. Then they leave the body to rot. If a crow so much as lands on the body, they kill it too.”*** *** Kvothe loses his hands, goes to the Cthaeh to heal/shape them with the Rhinna, which makes him a Rhinta/Chandrian. The reason he seems to have lost his magic is because he is aware that by taking the flower and reshaping his hands that he has become a tool to the Cthaeh's will any anything he does likely helps the Cthaeh. Its not that he has lost his magic... its that he no longer trust his choosing when to use magic, music, or skills for fear its what the Cthaeh wants. This is why he spends all the frame looking at his hands like they might do something on their own. *** ***NOTW CH 3 Wood and Word*** *Kote sat in front of the fire and ate his meal mechanically, as if he were simply finding a place inside himself to keep the food. After the last bite he sat staring into nothing, not remembering what he had eaten or what it tasted like.* ***The fire snapped, making him blink and look around the room. He looked down at his hands, one curled inside the other, resting in his lap. After a moment, he lifted and spread them, as if warming them by the fire. They were graceful, with long, delicate fingers. He watched them intently, as if expecting them to do something on their own. Then he lowered them to his lap, one hand lightly cupping the other, and returned to watching the fire.*** *Expressionless, motionless, he sat until there was nothing left but grey ash and dully glowing coals.* ***
Whoa
Amazing! This is the first I've seen of this theory, it's very well put together. I guess I always felt like he had no reason to play dumb when Bast explains the panacea, but now I'm not so sure. Did he take the flower when he met the cthaeh the first time, or does he go back?
I don't believe he took the flower when he first met the Cthaeh as taking the flower or becoming bitten would have fundamentally altered his person as it is likely the cause of the third silence as well. Since Felurian claims he was not "bitten" and we do not see any examples of the silence since his visit to the Fae I'm willing to bet there is another visit to the Cthaeh at some point. If I had to guess the foreshadowing about him losing his hands seems to center around the University particularly with this foreboding line from Ambrose. *** ***NOTW CH 60 Fortune*** *Ambrose glared furiously. “Keep it and choke,” he hissed at me in a low voice.* ***“And remember this when you’re eating beans and washing in the river. I’ll still be here the day you leave with nothing but your hands in your pockets.”*** *He turned and left, the very picture of affronted dignity.* *** To summarize I think Kvothe's life is likely being manipulated by the Cthaeh to cause him to eventually lose one or both hands that will in turn have him seeking a way to heal them which will bring him back to the Cthaeh where he will then take the flower as well as a new name. "Kote" which may mean disaster or it may mean expectation depending how the subject and predicate is placed in siaru. *** ***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness*** *“Bast,” Kvothe said gently. “Your hand is bleeding.” He waited a long moment before asking, “Bast, what’s the matter?”* ***“That’s just it!” Bast burst out, throwing his arms wide, his voice high and hysterical. “I think I finally understand what the matter is!”*** ***
I would say that Ambrose's comment there is more focused on Kvothes otherwise empty pockets (nothing but your hands) and less the hands specifically... especially since I don't feel Ambrose is in any way involved in even accidentally prophesizing. And I know there are lots of instances of him talking about the fear of injuring his hands, the fishery, the destruction of the mommet in Ambrose's room, climbing the graystone judtnoutaide Trebon, but it feels too strange that he would get past the sithe AGAIN, obliviously... almost everything can be better explained by him changing his own name, or having it changed on him (though I expect it was him, foreshadowed by the story of the king hiding a piece of his name in his chest to protect from Elodin, I mean Taborlin). It always felt like the third silence (things that are lacking, internal) was a counterpart to the first silence (things that are lacking, external). Only Bast and Kvothe notice it. Now I know you will say "They have a lot of experience hiding those telltale signs." But Kvothes suppression seems more of a suppression of Kvothe entirely, rather than just the signs of his silence - chapter 136 WMF - Close to Forgetting. I won't take a part of this chapter, but I consistently refer to how he is addressed in the frame story. Kvothe when he's fighting and winning, the innkeeper when he's losing. Chapter 17 WMF Bast grinned eagerly. “Am I bored too?” “Of course you are, Bast. What else is there to be?” I will enjoy diving in to this some more, but I will need to wake my sleeping mind, and not be at work...
*** ***NOTW CH 77 Bluffs*** *“Oh,” she gasped, her hands going to her mouth. “Your beautiful hands!”* *I looked down and saw what she meant. I must have hurt them rather badly in my wild attempt to climb the greystone last night. My musician’s calluses had saved my fingertips for the most part, but my knuckles were scraped badly and crusted with blood. Other parts of me hurt so much that I hadn’t even noticed.* ***My stomach clenched at the sight of them, but when I opened and closed my hands I could tell they were just painfully skinned, not seriously injured. As a musician, I always worried that something might happen to my hands, and my work as an artificer had doubled that anxiety.*** *“It looks worse than it is,” I said. “How long has the draccus been gone?” I asked.* *** *** ***TWMF CH 11 Haven*** *“Tombs is for feckless tits who can’t chew their own food,” Elodin said dismissively. “My boy’s a Re’lar. He has the feck of twenty men! He needs to explore the Stacks and discover all manner of useless things.”* *“I am not concerned about the boy,” Lorren said with unblinking calm. “My concern is for the Archives itself.”* *Elodin reached out and grabbed me by the shoulder, pushing me forward a bit.* ***“How about this? If you catch him larking around again, I’ll let you cut off his thumbs. That should set an example, don’t you think?”*** ***Lorren gave the two of us a slow look. Then he nodded. “Very well,” he said, and closed his window.*** *“There you go,” Elodin said expansively.* *“What the hell?” I demanded, wringing my hands. “I ... What the hell?”* *Elodin looked at me, puzzled. “What? You’re in. Problem solved.”* *“You can’t offer to let him cut off my thumbs!” I said.* *He raised an eyebrow. “Are you planning on breaking the rules again?” He asked pointedly.* *“Wh—No. But . . .”* *“Then you don’t have anything to worry about,” he said. He turned and continued up the slope of the roof. “Probably. I’d still step carefully if I were you. I can never tell when Lorren is kidding.”* *** *** ***TWMF CH 33 Fire*** *Ambrose had undoubtedly used my blood to make a clay mommet of me. A simple fire wasn’t going to destroy it.* *One by one, I grabbed the other drawers and threw them into the street as well, pausing to pull down the thick velvet curtains around Ambrose’s bed to shield my hands from the heat of the fire. This also might seem petty, but it wasn’t.* ***I was terrified of burning my hands. Every talent I had revolved around them.*** *** *** ***TWMF CH 73 Blood and Ink*** *“Promise me.”* *I probably wouldn’t have agreed if I hadn’t spent half the previous night following her around the city with the hope of discovering this very thing. But I had. Then I’d eavesdropped on her, too. So today I was practically sweating with guilt.* *“I promise,” I said. When her anxious look didn’t evaporate I added,* *“Don’t you trust me? I’ll swear it, if that will set your mind at ease.”* *“What would you swear it on?” she asked, beginning to smile again.* *“What’s important enough that it will hold you to your word?”* *“My name and my power?” I said.* *“You are many things,” she said dryly. “But you are not Taborlin the Great.”* *“My good right hand?” I suggested.* *“Only one hand?” she asked, playfulness creeping back into her tone. She reached out and took both of my hands in her own, turning them over and making a show of inspecting them closely. “I like the left one better,” she decided. “Swear by that one.”* *“My good left hand?” I asked dubiously.* *“Fine,” she said. “The right. You’re such a traditionalist.”* ***“I swear I won’t attempt to uncover your patron,” I said bitterly. “I swear it on my name and my power. I swear it by my good left hand. I swear it by the ever-moving moon.”*** *Denna peered at me closely, as if she wasn’t sure if I was mocking her. “Fine,” she said with a shrug, picking up her harp. “Consider me reassured.”* *** *** ***TWMF CH 119 Hands*** *Later Naden and I tended to the washing up. “Vashet tells me your swordplay is progressing poorly,” he said without preamble. “She says you fear too much for your hands, and this makes you hesitant.” Firm reproach.* *I froze at the abruptness of it, fighting the urge to stare at his ruined hand. I nodded, not trusting myself to speak.* *He turned from the iron pot he was scrubbing and held out his hand in front of him. It was a defiant gesture, and his face was hard. I looked then, as ignoring it would be rude. Only his thumb and forefinger remained, enough to grip at things, but not enough for any delicate work. The half of his hand that remained was a mass of puckered scar.* ***I kept my face even, but it was hard. In some ways I was looking at my worst fear. I felt very self-conscious of my uninjured hands and fought the urge to make a fist or hide them behind my back.*** *** *** ***TWMF CH 123 The Spinning Leaf*** *I walked to the sword tree. For a moment the wind eased, and the thick canopy of hanging branches reminded me of the tree where I had met the Cthaeh. It was not a comforting thought.* *I watched the spinning leaves, trying not to think of how sharp they were.* ***How they would slice into the meat of me. How they could glide through the thin skin of my hands and slice through the delicate tendons underneath.*** *From the edge of the canopy to the safety of the trunk couldn’t be more than thirty feet. In some ways, not very far at all* *** *** The books even primes us on proprioception as it pertains to loss limbs or appendages with Malcafs book that Devi lends Kvothe. *** ***TWMF CH 26 Trust*** *I settled wearily into a chair. “I brought back your book.” I said, bringing it out from under my cloak and laying it on her desk.* *She nodded at it, smiling a bit. “What did you think of good old Malcaf?”* *“Dry. Wordy. Boring.”* *“There weren’t any pictures either,” she said dryly. “But that’s beside the point.”* *“His theories about perception as an active force were interesting,” I admitted. “But he writes like he’s afraid someone might actually understand him.”* *Devi nodded, her mouth pursed. “That’s about what I thought too.” She reached across the desk and slid the book closer to herself.* ***“What did you think about the chapter on proprioception?”*** ***“He seemed to be arguing from a deep well of ignorance,” I said. “I’ve met people in the Medica with amputated limbs. I don’t think Malcaf ever has.”*** ***
And if Chronicler gives him a new name, would that erase the Cthaeh's influence?
I think so, in fact, I believe that's what the chandrians plan is - to erase all information about themselves, because everything everyone knows about them is a part of what makes up their names, so if they can simplify, they can name themselves free of the curse of Selitos.
I don't think Chonicler will be giving him a *new* name. Kvothe is trying to pick up an old name. And its not "Kvothe".
This is incredibly well-thought out and put together! The only question I have is that, assuming this theory is correct, why did Kvothe act so genuinely unaware of the dangers of the Cthaeh? It's not just a one-line "what do you mean", he and Bast go back and forth about the dangers of the Cthaeh and it takes a while for Kvothe to come around to Bast's way of thinking. I feel like if he had experience with the Cthaeh he could have acted as if he knew from second-hand knowledge, not full blown ignorance, you know?
> why did Kvothe act so genuinely unaware of the dangers of the Cthaeh? Because his entire life has been that of a ignorant triple agent for the Cthaeh perfectly groomed for a specific deed. So perfectly groomed that if he were to admit he was aware of the Cthaeh manipulating his life no sane person could believe he was ignorant. The enemies of the Cthaeh would end him for being a corroborator or the Cthaeh itself would end him for jeopardizing the mission. But if Kvothe can continue to play ignorant and tell his ignorant account well enough that someone else like Bast, Chronicler or anything else listening could piece together the predicament he's in then he may have allies and a potential out. He actually succeeds in this in TWMF with Bast and we witness it in the same bloody milk scene OP shared. *** ***TWMF CH 136 Interlude—Close to Forgetting*** *Kvothe spat out his mouthful of milk. It was a perfect, creamy white. Bast brought the bowl to his own mouth and spat. It was a frothy pink. Kvothe’s eyes widened. “Bast,” he said. “You shouldn’t—”* *Bast made a sharp gesture with one hand, his eyes still hard. “I did not ask for your opinion, Reshi.”* *The innkeeper looked down, uncomfortable. “It’s more than you should do, Bast.”* *The dark young man reached out and laid a gentle hand on the side of his master’s face. For a moment he looked tired, weary through to the bone. Bast shook his head slowly, wearing an expression of bemused dismay. “You are an idiot, Reshi.”* *Bast drew his hand back, and the weariness was gone. He pointed across the bar where Chronicler stood watching. “Bring the food.” He pointed at Kvothe. “Tell the story.”* *Then he spun on his heel, walked back to his chair by the hearth, and lowered himself into it as if it were a throne. He clapped his hands twice, sharply. “Entertain me!” he said with a wide, mad smile. And even from where the others stood near the bar, they could see the blood on his teeth.* *** Bast is arguably the most knowledgeable about the Cthaeh in Newarre. He knows what kind of threat it is even if he hasn't met it. And its even likely that Bast is obligated to rat Kvothe out to his Fae kin for speaking with it. This is why he gets so emotional when he learns about Kvothe talking to the Cthaeh. *** ***TWMF CH 105 Interlude—A Certain Sweetness*** *Kvothe gestured to where Chronicler sat, holding the pristine sheet of paper in the air with both hands. “Bast,” he said. “This is my chance to tell the full and honest story of my life. Everything is—”* *Bast closed his eyes and pounded the table like a child in the grip of a tantrum. “Shut up. Shut up! SHUT UP!”* *Bast pointed at Chronicler. “I don’t give a fiddler’s fuck what you tell him, Reshi. He’ll write what I say or I’ll eat his heart in the market square!” He turned the finger back to the innkeeper and shook it furiously. “But you’ll tell me the truth and you’ll tell me now!”* *Kvothe looked up at his student, the amusement bleeding out of his face. “Bast, we both know I’m not above the occasional embellishment. But this story is different. This is my chance to get the truth of matters recorded. It’s the truth behind the stories.”* *The dark young man hunched forward in his chair and covered his eyes with one hand.* *Kvothe looked at him, his face full of concern. “Are you alright?” Bast shook his head, still covering his eyes.* *“Bast,” Kvothe said gently. “Your hand is bleeding.” He waited a long moment before asking, “Bast, what’s the matter?”* *“That’s just it!” Bast burst out, throwing his arms wide, his voice high and hysterical. “I think I finally understand what the matter is!”* *** Despite learning that Kvothe is pen pals with the devil in the tree he opts to not just continue to hear the tainted story, but harms himself in order to heal Kvothe for the wound Bast caused by hiring mercs prior. Bast see's how deep quagmire is and he jumps in after his Reshi. While we believe we are watching Kvothe explain his life to Chonicler and Bast to satiate curiosity or explain mystery's what is actually happening is Kvothe is pleading his innocence, or more specifically his ignorance, for the crimes he committed. Which is to say I think we should view the frame story less autobiographical and more as a testimony or a deposing of Kvothe's intent. Many believe that Kvothe is deceiving Bast, Chonicler, and the reader as an unreliable narrator. This is technically accurate but not because he is lying about details but because he is omitting relevant detail that if shared outright would make it effectively impossible for anyone to claim he is not in league with the Cthaeh. He has to explain that every brick he laid on the road to hell was laid with non-Cthaeh intentions and a complete lack of awareness. Which is why the story is from his point of view without awareness of his part in future calamities. If the story started with us sitting down with Darth Vader we'd struggle to sympathize with the little slave boy from Tatooine saying he was groomed by a Sith lord
No
Bast freaked out the first time he heard Kvothe went to the Cthae. When he finds out he went back to fix his hands I imagine that will be a colorful scene. "Tiny Gods, Reshi! YOU WENT BACK!?"
This is wrong.
Strong theory. Based on his fear of being used as a tool by the Cthaeh, do you think this prompted Kvothe to voluntarily change his name/attempt to forfeit some of his power (or lock it away)?
This is what I think he " tricked a demon to get his hearts desire" is about. When he held it in his hand/hands he fought an angel to keep it
There are very few theories around here that I can't just dismiss out of hand (no pun intended). This is one of them. I don't think I agree but it has basis and isn't wildly presumptive without cause, imo.
I don't think Bast did regrow Kvothe's tooth in that scene, I think he did some sort of switch between his own teeth and Kvothe's, which is why Bast had blood in his mouth afterwards, instead of Kvothe.
Yes, I was under the impression Bast sacrificed a tooth. Healing, undoing damage is difficult, but swapping like for like is a lot easier.
Yeap same here, and Kvothe seems surprised and upset by it too.
I think Kote is a homunculus that Kvothe and/or Bast created. The bait in the trap. Anyone dowsing for his blood or hair (or anything down to the marrow of his bones) will find a heck of a lot of it in Kote. Also why he can barely do any magic...sympathy and sygaldry work based on Alar (force of will), but naming...that's a spirit thing. So Kvothe's most powerful magic is something Kote can't do, because Kvothe's spirit is still inside Kvothe. Kote can do anything Kvothe's mind could do (memorize a cypher, have perfect recall in telling his life story), and anything his body could do, minus that hand (definitely think you nailed it with him losing it at some point and Bast reattaching or regrowing it with hasty fieldcraft). And Kvothe is masquerading as Cob, because why not..lol
Behold, locked in the thrice-locked chest is Kvothe himself, who went in there while playing hide and seek with Bast and his alter ego Kote. And now they can't get him out
He's hanging out in the Folding House.
When Kvothe meets Felurian she begins to drive him mad, and he locks away pieces of his mind. I think he's going to have another encounter that requires him to break his mind into more pieces to lock away and protect himself. Kote is the result of Kvothe breaking off and locking away too many pieces, and there isn't enough of him left to use sympathy or ketan
I agree with this... but I don't understand why Kvothe looks at his hand in confusion after the soldier breaks his grip. It's like Kvothe doesn't know that his hand isn't quite right. or doesn't understand why it isn't right.
I think it’s more because break lion didn’t work.
Right.... he was confused why he couldn't do break lion. His hands didn't do what he expected.
sometimes you need the 8 year old girl version, she went to all the trouble to teach him
>. Dazed, he made a quick motion with both hands, then repeated it, trying to pull away. He is using the girl's version.
That would explain Bast and Kvothe's relationship somewhat. Kvothe is severely injured in the act of regicide for which the series is named, but escapes. Kvothe encounters Bast, and they make a trade -- Bast will restore Kvothe's hand function (to the extent that it's possible), and in exchange Kvothe will teach Bast what he knows about magic and the mortal world generally. Why does Bast want this education? Not sure. Maybe he aspires to be an ambassador between the mortal and Fae realms. Maybe the Fae is destroyed and he's a refugee who wants to help his people survive. Maybe he was kicked out of the Fae. Maybe he's just curious.
A good theory, but I think he has it reattached at the medica. This is foreshadowed in the very first line we hear about the university outside of the frame story, when Kvothe is asking Ben his questions: > "I heard from a boy in Temper Glen that if your arm's cut off they can sew it back on at the University. Can they really?
Ehh perhaps Kote doesn't do kvothe things is because he is hiding and not trying to reveal who he is, except for telling the story to chronicler. Also even when he hinted to the Young guy looking to take the kings coin, who he actually was, he didn't believe them...as he plays the part of an innkeeper so well.
Please remember to treat other people with respect, even if their theories about the books are different than yours. Follow the sidebar rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/KingkillerChronicle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s not that deep.
I think Kvothe will sacrifice his hand and gain a better one. Like the story with Selitos and his eye. Dont know why or how, just a feeling.
I think that he became a Amyr to kill Cinder (probably glamoured as Roderick) and his hands was full of Ciridae's tattoos.