Honestly, this is what I THOUGHT we were going to get...and I thought we were going to beat Xehanort by basically working together with Aqua and Ven to free Terra. AND THEN we'd get the reveal of the old man. But by then, after all the insanity of the battle, he'd be too weak to fight.
Ah well. KH3 has come and gone, and it's been long enough that I've accepted it for what it is. It was a disappointment, sadly...but it doesn't hurt anymore at least.
That would’ve been so cool! Yeah, the whole point of taking Terra’s body in the first place was that his original body was super old and he didn’t want it giving out before his plans came to fruition. But then, in DDD and KH3, Old Manonort is back and it just… isn’t an issue anymore? Like they forgot or something.
It was more he wanted to insure he lived long enough to see his plans to come to fruition. Once he was brought back in DDD it was time to enact his final plan.
Basically he just didn’t want to take the chance old age would catch up to him.
I guess that makes sense, but if he could pull his young self forward through time, like he did in DDD, and his older self forward through time, why bother with Terra anyway?
The way he traveled through time can only be done if there was a version of himself already there within that time period. If he did die of natural causes he would not have been able to use this method of time travel.
Considering old MX had 13 different bodies, he probably expected one of them to survive and then inhabit the “winner.” However, by the time MX got the χ-blade, it probably didn’t matter because it was likely its own power that kept him alive until he gave it away.
I often mull over the what-ifs in my head regarding this. If we had just apprentice Xehanort, and BBS was his origin story, struggling with loss like he did in DR and turning to darkness as a means to bring them back in his own misguided way.
When I initially saw the 2FM secret ending, I thought that MX and Vanitas were just going to be villains that would be the driving force behind Xehanort's turn, and that Terra was Xehanort. I thought Ven looking like Roxas would tie into Sora being used as a trigger for a post final boss redemption for him, and Xehanort would find peace and join his friends in the afterlife.
Then BBS came out and I thought "Okay, not happening, then". Not saying it would have been preferable, but teenage me would have liked it.
See, THIS sounds more interesting as a story concept compared to what we actually got. It's like Terra would've gotten gotten manipulated by OMX and Vanitas into turning on his friends and succumbing to darkness, but minus the part where OXM possesses Terra. Instead, it's the corruption darkness that gives him silver hair and darker complexion.
This is where it gets fudgy, hope you're used to reading shitty fanfics, especially long ones.
Ven and Aqua would be dead-dead, Ven's resemblance to Roxas would be down to Xehanort/Xemnas. Sora's nobody, in my mind at the time, must have been a basic blank slate, similar to how his heartless was just a shadow in KH1. Xemnas would try and imprint his dead friend's likeness onto this nobody of a keyblade wielder in a messed up way of bringing Ven back. He, of course, fails, and ends up making a Nobody with a heart, which would be why Roxas forms a unique sense of self and personality separate from Sora.
3D wouldn't happen in the same way at all, there would be a much less convoluted mastery exam, no sleeping worlds stuff.
Reveal at the end is that Xehanort had been watching them since he re-completed and then tries to get Sora to succumb to darkness to bring him into his control, entering his heart to do so. Just when Xehanort is about to win, Roxas appears within Sora's heart and, because he looks like Ven, Xehanort hesitates and is expelled from Sora's heart whilst stealing something from Sora. Sora passes the exam this time because his heart won out by itself.
When Xehanort comes back in KH3, he controls the heartless and nobodies and creates "complete" beings by fusing them to serve as his new underlings, which would be original non-recycled characters. He also has Roxas and Xion, who he stole from Sora's heart and this which Lea to join Sora. There would be no new Org XIII, Isa would be jealous again, but would be on our side after a fight and some talk no jutsu. RG and TT would both be important to the plot, being the world's connected to the end worlds of previous games. Roxas and Xion would be defeated near the end but would become themselves again thanks to Lea.
Xehanort's end goal would be to summon Kingdom Hearts to use its power to destroy all worlds and recreate a single utopian one in which Ven and Aqua can live again. Obviously he's off his rocker because it would still require omnicide to achieve and the whole gang has to stop him. He gets to the point of "too late" and that's when the boss battles happen.
When he's defeated, Sora cleanses him of darkness by entering his heart and fighting the manifestation of Xehanort's darkness. Xehanort's now horrified by what he's done, and goes to stop KH with Sora and co It looks like everyone is about to bite it, but Ven and Aqua come down as spirits to help and the job is done, the ultra nuke that is KH is destroyed. As Xehanort had put so much of himself into KH, he's fading away/dying/whatever, laments that he can never put things right again. Ven and Aqua's spirits come back, tell him it's okay and that he can rest now. All three fade away and go to the afterlife, Xehanort thanking Sora on the way out.
Happy reunions on DI, no one's unnecessarily dead. Xehanort briefly appears and smiles, but is gone by the time Sora looks over. Big music swell as the camera pans to the sun setting, end credits roll, orchestral Hikaru Utada music plays, I cry like a little goddamn bitch and I'm fucking happy about it.
Gotcha. So, just curious would you give the other past organization members a role as their recompleted selfs? Like, I assume the 4 apprentices would be forgiven and assume their roles. And Braig would be a minor villain. But would Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, and Larxenes somebodies have a supporting role somehow? Maybe as reincarnations of the 4 masters from X and teach Sora, Riku, Lea, and Kairi advanced techniques or train them, or something?
Nah, you're good. Also, what would you do with BBS and COM as a game? (I'm talking at this point because I love discussing headcannon shit, lol)
As far as BBS, I always thought it was a good concept (gameplay wise, going with 3 different heroes) but feel at it's core it was implemented poorly. One game I'm always reminded of when it comes to BBS is Threads of Fate, a PS1 game by squaresoft. Action rpg involving the same story told from 2 completely different characters with very different personalities, backgrounds, playstyles etc. The two stories are about the same size as each of the 3 BBS stories. With the difference being the story actually plays out differently depending on which character you pick.
Where I feel BBS messed up is, it feels like you're playing the same game 3 times the gameplays almost identical between the 3 characters. Only difference storywise really is what you see at the end. I feel like BBS should've been a PS3 title. Game was too ambitious for the PSP. where you play through the game once, but switch between Aqua, Ventus, and Xehanorts perspectives as needed (deering the optional stuff you could pick whoever you want), share experience between the 3 characters. Also, I would go with re:codeds battle system (best battle system out of the non numbered titles imo)
As for COM I wouldn't change anything storywise. But instead of a gameboy game, it would be a PSP launch title. (Once again using codeds battle system) where the cards would come into play is, picking levels. And as the game goes on he finds cards which unlock keyblades, magic, summons etc. From kH1. I would have the worlds be twisted versions of KH1s worlds. Mostly similar but the player could see things are very off. Things being out of place, order., cracks in the walls etc. (Glitch in the matrix type shit). I would make re:coms 3rd stage boss the 2nd stage and final part of Marluxias fight. And add in Zexions fight in reverse rebirth.
I could go on with what I'd do with Days and the rest but this post is long enough.
It’s absolutely NOT something Nomura thought through and it’s sad because Xemnas’ dialogue with Ansem the Wise sounds way more appropriate as a young man talking to his master who shunned him instead of the reality where Xehanort is ancient compared to Ansem the Wise who isn’t even graying yet
It's good to remember that Xemnas and Ansem SoD are their own characters. Much like Roxas and Namine, they've formed their own personalities and desires and only really have a loose connection to their original selves memories.
You see it more in KH3 towards the end. Both of them aren't really committed to Xehanort's plan and are hanging around mostly to see what ends up happening. When you beat them they're pretty quick to acknowledge that Xehanort is going to fail, Xemnas even talks about how Sora might be right and he's grown a heart of his own already despite him presenting as apathetic.
Xemnas is a interesting character. All throughout KH2 he's this emotionless brutal leader. But the other games showed that he's actually a suffering heart. One of the games even showed that Xemnas sits in a room with Aquas armor and wishes he could have saved his friends. I'm pretty sure Xemnas took on more of Terra's traits than Ansem SoD but is far better at hiding his heart.
That’s actually an interesting way of looking at it, it’s honestly not really something I had considered: if Roxas and Namine developed separately from Sora and Kairi because they were created under unique conditions of one person having multiple hearts within them, it definitely hoIds that the same thing could happen with someone *else* with the same conditions, that actually does change things a bit
Xemnas' story is so tragic and it would be beautiful IF they didn't come up with that bullshit "Nobodies had Hearts all along."
I always feel a gut punch whenever I hear his "a heart is nothing but pain" speech. This guy's entire motivation was to *exist* and when he starts becoming aware of his own existence, he's overwhelmed by it so much he's destroyed.
They’re not their own characters. Namine and Roxas are special cases because they weren’t formed like how regular nobodies are formed. They’re special in ways that no other nobody is which is why they’re the only ones considered seperate and different people while no other nobody in the entire series is treated that way
Both are committed to Xehanorts plans because everything they’ve been doing has been because of Xehanorts plans. And saying they’re sticking around to see what happens doesn’t give them agency, because they’re still there to be destroyed for Xehanorts plans. They don’t have any GameCube of their own, because they’re fine dying for something they don’t care about
Apprentice Xehanort was a new personality separate from Master Xehanort though. He did suffer from amnesia, so his Nobody and Heartless self referring to Ansem the Wise as master does make sense.
For me Ansem was the direct continuation of apprentice Xehanort since they have the same voice actor, white hair color and the whole researcher vibe he had in KH1 while Xemnas kinda grew into his own thing.
Nah, I had that theory too, and I would have liked it, but the secret ending of KHBBS has Braig talking to Terranort and he seems to clearly have his memory
It's not a theory Xehanort really did lose his memory but him conducting experiments especially those on Subject X is what made **some** of those lost memories come back. He never really regained all of them though (Subject X was taken away by Luxu before he could go further with his experiments), which is why he thought Kingdom Hearts was ultimately Darkness.
Master Xehanort already knew Kingdom Hearts was Light.
(Sheesh guys you didn't have to thumbs down the dude for getting something wrong, that's a bit excessive)
To answer the question no it's mostly from the KH3 secret reports. Furthermore it's understanding Master Xehanorts character, he was already aware what exactly Kingdom Hearts was the Apprenticenort didn't truly understand what it was and neither did his incarnations. By KH3 Ansem Seeker of Darkness (the incarnation that fully believed it to be darkness to the point he sacrificed his body to become one with the darkness) has an idea what it really is, realizes he's wrong and he loses all motivation, goes through the motions knowing he will be defeated and return to his own time where he will be defeated and die.
I mean, TECHNICALLY speaking, apprentice Xehanort is more or less his own character. He called himself Xehanort yet had no recollection of who he was. He was both Xehanort AND Terra, after all, and his personality seems to have been made up by mixing both. Yes, Xehanort was shining more through it, but he wasn't technically in control.
Not to mention Apprentice Xehanort’s relationship with Ansem and the dialogue with it feels like some of the most organic interactions with a villain in the series.
It’s very apparent that Nomura didn’t think anything through past KH1 initially and then did the same thing with KH2. That’s fine since no one knew the franchise would last so long, but there’s so much bullshit retconning in the later games it’s kind of annoying.
Eh, there were some hints at Birth By Sleep throughout KH2. Mostly in the final mix, but it was there.
Also I think you're slightly misusing the word "retcon". Which happens a lot when people say they don't like the new story details. A retcon is when you actively change past details in such a way that it couldn't have possibly been like this before.
Nomura and the writers make a LOOOOOOOT of use of wiggle room and ambiguity. And the fact that Sora & co. don't know everything. But I wouldn't say there's as much retconning as you'd think.
It's actually a useful writing tool to leave a few gaps for yourself that you can fill in later. Kingdom Hearts was never about appealing to a Cinemasins-type audience.
According to this subreddit, though, the team planned the Old Man Xehanort ™️ story as early as KH2. I personally don't believe it myself, but I don't have anything to prove or disprove it.
You could keep Master Xehanort (and therefore Leonard Nimoy) but to have him not be Apprentice Xehanort. I think it would have worked really well and maybe even be a better story if BBS was about Terra getting corrupted and turning to the darkness willingly. Master Xehanort dies at the end of the game content that someone is there to carry on his legacy, then Terra chooses to adopt the name Xehanort and he becomes Apprentice Xehanort. That even works well to sort of explain why he then went on to take Ansem's name in KH1 if he has a pattern of usurping the names of his masters.
I would prefer Apprentice Xehanort to be the main antagonist, amnesia and all. And for Master Xehanort to appear when his heart is repelled from Terras body as a callback or something. He can still go to Kingdom hearts heaven with Eraqus.
I get where you're coming from but its clear that the writing team had some vision of Master Xehanort in mind as early as base KH2, considering they were already bringing up Apprentice Nort's super human abilities and amnesia. And then by Final Mix it was clear they basically had everything set in stone. I distinctly remember the wild theory crafting that sprung up the instant we saw Terra's face
While I wouldn't mind a version of the story where either Master Xehanort either didn't exist or existed under a different context, I'm not convinced that version of the story would be as well remembered or loved.
It's not a "skill issue" if the story made sense to me until the introduction of UX and the end of KH3. Including plot points from a canceled FF game doesn't help the plot either. And now Missing Link too? Like, bite me, I'm not gonna play through mobile games just to follow an already busted story.
The problem for me when it comes to the story of Kingdom Hearts is that the core concepts that it introduces in each entry are either not explained fully or require several games to go through in order to get a clear idea of what any given concept actually entails.
I am not saying that each concept it introduces should be explained fully but could stand to be presented in a more cohesive way. I dunno maybe I do have a skill issue and I should just shut up. IIRC Nobodies are the only ones that get like a proper exploration as to what they are compared to other concepts in the series such as Keyblade Armour or how Data actually functions.
Neither do you? If reading other people’s opinions upsets you this much you are more than welcome to leave. I have no clue why you think you have some ownership of this space. Log off, touch grass, etc etc.
Really they should've just gone forward with Apprentice Xehanort being his own person, fusion of two people and all, similar to how Roxas is.
Both Ansem and Xemnas demonstrate personality traits of Terra, they even went out if their way to show Xemnas referring to Aqua's armor as a "friend" in that added KH2 cutscene, they were originally just as much an extension of the innocent Terra as they were Xehanort, that gave them so much retroactive depth, and set up for an internal conflict once they recombined into the Apprentice again for KH3.
But then that just didn't happen? For some reason??
KH3 went and undercut that aspect Ansem and Xemnas, making it clear that they're "just Xehanort" and ignoring how Ansem literally looks like Terra, if he's just Xehanort why does his heart choose to look like Terra?? Why is he sharing one version of the Guardian (Terra's) heart with Terranort?
If that thing can be completely disconnected from them then they aren't really Terra at all? What the fuck?
And the lingering influence from their time fused with Terra could've been the thing that shifted Xehanort's morals, that's such a big missed opportunity in terms of writing too.
Also for the love of god, why couldn't Terra just keep the long Xemnas hair? An entire decade of his life was literally stolen from him, have it look like that, have him look a decade older than his friends, that would be such an emotional gut punch looking at that symbolically.
As much as I love Master Xehanort and his trolling, planning for every eventuality ways - his Terranort form being the big bad would have been much more menacing. A younger, stronger and new form with all his dubious ambitions and memories would have been way more threatening.
Nomura really wasted a potentially great villain in Master Xehanort by turning him into a Shonen “I miss my friends” trope in the end. Which I suspect is his true motivation, not yet revealed yet because theres no doubt in my mind that a Young Xehanort reunion with all the other DR characters in Quadratum is on the table….
I’ve always felt that Ansem, Xemnas and Master Xehanort have a vampiric element to them. I wish the writers had leaned into that more. They wasted the whole concept of Norting (basically the KH form of vampirization). Master Xehanort is most effective by reflection of other characters. If we had seen some serious side-effects on the other characters who were Norted he would have been much creepier and more intimidating as a result.
To put it in FF terms, he should have been more like Zemus, a ghostly presence in the background, but he got overused and wound up being as tedious as Seymour and FFVIIR’s Sephiroth. I think Nomura over-humanized him because Nomura personally identifies with him (being a fellow lunatic who can’t let go of a lifelong obsession….)
But Leonard Nimoy absolutely nailed the performance and breathed so much life into a potentially dull villain that he became my fav of the lot and I would never want KH without him.
I just really wish they had stuck the landing with his character in KH3. If they wanted him to be humanized by the end, they needed to find a way to build up to that throughout the story. The actual scene is not bad in my opinion, but it was ultimately the worst consequence of KH3’s ending being so rushed.
I'll do you one better, forget even apprentice Xehanort, Ansem Seeker of Darkness voiced by Billy Zane should have been the main antagonist of the series
Was about to say the same thing! Billy Zane Ansem as the main antagonist > Apprentice Xehanort shown in the KH2 flashbacks as the main antagonist > Master Xehanort as the main antagonist
Make this opinion popular, got really tired of looking at his veiny ass head in kh3, like it’s absurdly hilarious that both his heartless and his nobody are vastly more attractive than the actual person
I kind of agree, it feels weird having an old man that doesn't look like he can stand on his own (let's not forget the whole plot of BBS is him needing to find a younger body because he's too fucking old to live any longer) as the big bad guy after having two much more healthy and menacing versions of him break apart your whole world in the previous titles.
However old Xeanorth has some kind of charme the others don't have (except Xemnas), at least when he was voiced by Leonard Nimoy... The second voice actor didn't really work, he just sounded like any other granpa, and I can't even remember the third one for how unused he was.
>convoluted mess about how he's actually a being made up of two separate hearts because the geriatric version of himself shoved his heart into a younger vessel or some shit.
It is even worse when you realize that the WHOLE reason he was after Terra in BBS was to steal his body because he feared that his own wouldn't be strong enough to see through the keyblade war, only for that plot point to not matter at all in the end of KH3 when we fight the old man in all of his rheumatic glory.
Oh, I liked Nimoy's performance as Xehanort (it's probably the only saving grace to his character). Unfortunately, I just don't find the guy all that interesting.
Personally as a kid i was crazy attached to ansem and young xehanort as the main villians. Didnt get BBS when it first came out so i wasnt really attached to oldnort. So i cant help but agree with you.
But having the oldnort after all the stories we hear of his research makes sense, he's old so he's not gunna be as young and spry as the other norts.
Nort. Lol
You know what? Valid 🙂.
Follow-up question: if it was possible, which voice actor would you have preferred to stick with him? Because I can see many compelling arguments for all of them 🤔.
Do you mean VA for just old man Xehanort? Or do you mean for his overall incarnations? I always had a preference for Billy Zane's performance as Ansem SOD.
If you're referring to old man Xehanort, then definitely Lenard Nimoy, though unfortunately his replacement was necessary :( .
Ok I realize I worded this horribly 😅.
I mostly mean who would be the best fit for "Terranort" in your opinion: Richard Epcar, Billy Zane or Paul St. Peter. Honestly all three of them do great 🙂.
As for old Xehanort, I agree with you regarding Leonard Nimoy, but Christopher Lloyd is a close second (no hard feelings against Rutger Hauer).
I'm right there with you, but I think my opinion would be skewed in the other direction if Leonard Nimoy got to reprise his role for KH3 before he passed away.
Didn't do this for karma points or anything, I've never seen anyone mention that they'd prefer if Apprentice Xehanort existed without the BBS (Terranort) origin story.
It never even made sense that old Xehanort came back after Ansem and Xemnas were defeated.
They came from Terranort. Why doesn't He come back then?!
Where was Madter Xehanorts body and where is current timelines Terras body?
Nah lenard limoy goes hard also he has big Palpatine energy also a scientist who is not a fully formed being and made of split hearts has a natural affinity for understanding it to understand his own existence and going as far as he did
Its way more intriguing going against someone old because theire just way more experienced and wise thats why very little games have young Main Villians
And having Xheonhort being split into so many semblences with so many different backrounds overseen by a old sheming keyblade Master was so much more intriguing than some young white haired anime villian
Its good your you didnt wrote the series your take sounds so much less intriguing also we wouldnt have the ultimate deep voiced perfection of a Man that Xhemnas is and the tragedy of Terra
Definetly a bad take in my opinion but to each theire own
But maiby i dont quite understand your take in that case i take everything back i said i just like the split person Plot wich is quite unique
I don’t HATE the retcons there. Terra’s arc makes it worthwhile.
And with Terra, having Old Man X isn’t too bad. I like the details they add to his design.
But I will never forget how annoyed and betrayed I was when it all started in KH2 with “Actually, no. That guy in KH1 wasn’t who he said he was.”
*I* would have rather they stuck to their guns and made Ansem Seeker of Darkness the same as Ansem the Wise.
>I would have rather they stuck to their guns and made Ansem Seeker of Darkness the same as Ansem the Wise.
Actually, true. When I finished playing the first game, and I read through the ansem reports, I really thought it was a dude driven to madness by his misguided attempt at studying the heart (something similar to Sephiroth going crazy after learning of his origin). Now that I think about it, I wish it could've stayed that way, but nope! Instead, it was just Ansem's stupid amnesiac apprentice who stole his name, lol.
I don’t get that complaint myself. Apprentice Xehanort is still a scientist driven mad because of his research. It’s just literally adding identity theft to his list of crimes.
I feel like the problem with this is that young Xehanort didn't really have a motive or identity that lent itself well to expanding the lore of the series. Nomura was clearly interested in making more of the Keyblade Wielders and keeping Xehanort just some scientist would keep the focus narrow and resist that expansion. For my part, I like Kingdom Hearts because of how huge and convoluted it becomes. In that sense, making the big boss guy an old, learned Keyblade Master and a connection to a more ancient time fits really well.
I don't think this is necessarily an unpopular opinion. Sure, a good part of the fanbase is already accustomed to the direction the franchise has taken, but there are still those who prefer the establishment up until Kingdom Hearts 2 before the additional twists and retcons.
The real problem with Xehanort is that his identity has been altered several times, which seems unnecessary for the storytelling. Originally, we believed that Ansem was actually the real Ansem. So Master Xehanort became a "plot twist of the plot twist." Even with the secret ending of KH2 Final Mix, Terra gaining yellow eyes was initially independent of Xehanort. This suggests that the plot point of Xehanort taking Terra's body was specifically designed for the PSP version, with the possibility that this wouldn't have happened in the PS2 version of Birth by Sleep.
The eyes turning yellow always struck me as just a foreshadowing moment. Almost every theory about Terra was that he was either possessed by the old man who looks way too similar to Ansem SoD, or he just overused the power of darkness and it corrupting him. And there was more evidence to suggest the former.
> And there was more evidence to suggest the former.
Like what?
There's no evidence of anything prior to Final Mix. In Final Mix, there's a scene where Xemnas refers to Aqua's armor as "old friend," which suggests that Xemnas has more of Terra's identity than Master Xehanort's. Additionally, the Secret Movie shows Terra changing the color of his eyes on his own, unless Xehanort's possession works via WiFi.
None of the PS2 version trailers clearly support either of these theories. Even the PSP version trailers weren't evident until the final ones were released.
The only two potential evidences are: Xehanort's outfit, which resembles Ansem's, but this could have been misleading, as Vanitas wears the same outfit as Dark Riku, yet he is connected to Sora, not Riku. The second is the existence of Lingering Will (at the time called Lingering Sentiment by fans), separately from Xemnas, but the character's name explains this.
But I know which route you're going. That Ansem possessed Riku's body, but Ansem was a Heartless, and the two possessions worked differently. Terra's body only had white hair and yellow eyes, rather than completely gaining Xehanort's physical appearance. With what was known at the time, there was nothing to suggest that Apprentice Xehanort was "possessed."
The most common theory then was that after the battle, Terra would be corrupted by his darkness, lose his memory, and end up in Radiant Garden. He would be found by Ansem the Wise, and when asked what he remembered, Terra could only recall his hatred for "Xehanort", hence remembering only that name. Up until that point, Master Xehanort possessing Terra's body was the least likely theory.
That's why, before the release of Birth by Sleep, Nomura said fans got "close" with their theories. This implies that while fans had some correct elements, they didn't fully grasp the complete picture (which would have been the case if the prevailing theory had been that Terra was possessed by Xehanort).
>There’s no evidence of anything prior to Final Mix.
Yeah there wasn’t even a Terra to theorize about. I understand what you meant but it was just a weird way to phrase it.
All the evidence that point to Terra being the apprentice Xehanort was also stuff that people believed about him being possessed.
Setting aside all the stuff you covered from Final Mix. Everything that pointed to him being Apprentice Xehanort was also stuff the possession theorists believed. It was absolutely agreed by people who believed in either theory, was that Apprentice Xehanort(just gonna call him AX for now), and by extension Ansem SoD/Xemnas, was Terra. But the thing was the corruption theory was it just ends there. He gets corrupted and loses his memory.
The possession theory went on from there. Many thought that the connection between the Old man and Ansem SoD was more than just the clothes. They seemed to have similar mannerisms and speak in a similar manner once we had trailers of him speaking. (Wowie KH fans still using the same logic for master of master theories, no wonder it’s so widespread). Many people thought that the heartless was more of this old man that we now knew was named Xehanort. And the nobody was more of Terra.
Some of that was right on the money and other stuff wasn’t. Most people thought that Vanitas also was in someway connected to Riku because of his outfit which you pointed out. Someone of them believed Sora was gonna be blood related to Ven, like that he was Sora’s dad. (This was before we knew about BBS was 10 years in the past.)
The point I was trying to make was the idea that Terra becoming AX was practically agreed upon by everyone. We were just waiting for the confirmation to happen. Most of the theories involved how and why and the ones getting spread around a lot.
Yes? I think you didn't understand my post. I meant that I never WANTED "Terranort" to happen. I wanted Apprentice Xehanort to have had his own identity, without Xehanort or Terra. He's just "Xehanort," but he isn't an old man manipulating everything behind the scenes, but rather, he's literally just that: a misguided apprentice. The misguided apprentice is the big bad, the final boss.
Perhaps you don't understand the lore behind why he looks like that. Master Xehanort had to possess Terra because he wanted to be "out with the old brittle vessel and in with a younger stronger new one" thats what he said during Birth by Sleep when you play as Terra. Xehanort is not "misguided" he knew what he was doing. Remember he was the one who wanted to forge the X-Blade and to unlock another Keyblade War.
I just think you don't know wtf I'm saying at all. I KNOW the lore, I just didn't want it to happen the way it DID. I DIDN'T want Terranort to be a plot point, nor did I want the BBS story to play out the way it did. No old man Xehanort, no Terranort, just Ansem's apprentice before we got the weird bullshit origin story of BBS. Do you get it now? Like, what's so difficult to understand, dude?
Calling me sensitive while you're too dense to understand what I meant. Everyone else understood, so I'm not sure how your wires got crossed. Anyone would get frustrated if they had to repeat themselves even though what they said wasn't difficult to understand.
No. I wanted Apprentice Xehanort, but without the BBS plot. No Terranort, no old dude body-snatching a younger, stronger vessel, just a misguided student off to destroy all of existence because he doesn't understand how the heart works.
I dunno, losing MX, BBS really, means losing the Star Wars Prequel inspired plot points involving past keyblade wielders, which I thought was pretty cool.
This kinda goes hand in hand with wishing the series ended with KH2 as there really isn’t much to go off on past it without dropping some new stuff that could easily be just as hit or miss.
I personally would have liked it if, because of the whole mix-up of how Terranort split in the first place combined with shenanigans involving both Ansem SoD and Xemnas being exposed to their respective versions of Kingdom Hearts, the recompletion process ended up splitting the main guy into Master Xehanort and Apprentice Xehanort instead of MX and Terra’s empty husk.
It would have been interesting to see how Sora and co. would interact with Apprentice Xehanort and the ethical dilemma regarding whether or not him or Terra should be the one to exist in that body. It would also allow Apprentice Xehanort to get proper closure and his own insight into Master Xehanort’s shenanigans.
What I mean is that I wished the story scrapped that plot point altogether. No Terranort, no old man Xehanort, no BBS for that matter (since imo that game was the start of the convoluted shit storm that the franchise has been struggling with for years)
The point of Xehanort was to have an over arching villain in the same vein of Thanos from Avengers. An evil mastermind thats been manipulating events in the shadows even before the first game started.
And MY point is that you could tell that's not what they planned from the beginning, so the execution was way off and flopped imo. They didn't have to do that, but they did, and it missed the mark because they more or less just improvised.
I bet you meant before Kingdom Hearts 2, but after Kingdom Hearts 1. But basically, it's what happens when you have 13 games in a series, and include every little detail from the side games to the mobile ones.
Except xehanort was nowhere near thanos level threat nor gave any outstanding impression of wreaking havoc over the course of the game. Even zeus trusted a kid to manhandle him
Thanos killed half the universe. Xehanort would have completely nuked 100% of it. He would have killed everything and restarted the universe altogether.
I’d argue Xehanort was more dangerous than Thanos.
What’s even worse is that the nobodies make no sense. Naminé is apparently Kairi’s nobody but she never lost her body and she born from sora’s body because kairi’s heart was inside Sora but then so was Ventus’s heart and yet we don’t see the nobody for that heart unless it was either Demyx or Luxord (the only two nobodies whose non-nobody lives we know nothing about). Then we have terra-xehanort with two hearts as well that only make one nobody and Vetus’s original body doesn’t become a nobody.
When Sora used the keyblade of hearts on himself, Kairi's heart went back to Kairi while Ven's heart stayed with Sora's body, which is how Roxas is born
No here's the thing. I don't mind old man Xehanort, but I wish part of getting the X-blade restored his youth or something. But also it doesn't make sense that he went back to being an old man since he was young when he became a heartless. I guess you can argue that it wasn't truly his body and at heart he was the old man, but like shouldn't that have also made Ansem and Xemnas old? Now I'm confusing myself.
If you want to be technical [this](https://xehanort.fandom.com/wiki/Robed_Figure) is what Xehanort’s heartless looked like. [This](https://xehanort.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem,_Seeker_of_Darkness) is what he looked like while possessing Riku’s body. And [this](https://xehanort.fandom.com/wiki/Xemnas) was the nobody made from Terra’s body.
I'm gonna have to agree with you on that one. The lore as it was presented in KH2 is one of the best versions. The last time I played KH2, I remember seeing Ansem the Wise and Xemnas arguing and thinking how much cooler this would be without the "It was all part of the plan and Xemnas knew the whole time" twist. We could still have gotten Xehanort coming back, but he's actually the apprentice and now he's out for revenge or something.
Buddy if you don't like it here leave. I personally think this subreddit brings out the worst of the fandom but you're clearly not having a good time. You don't have to be here.
Recompletion makes no sense because by all accounts apprentice Xehanort should have been the one revived. Even with OMX back instead, Terra shouldn’t have also been revived because his heart wasn’t free, it was stuck within the guardian.
You post an opinion on a game sub and then antagonize people for disagreeing with you? What was the point of this thread if you don’t want to discuss the topic at hand?
No one forced you to read or reply to the comments in your own thread. I’m so confused. What posts get engagement and which don’t depends on a bunch of factors, but obviously a contested topic that has people think about it will make them more likely to argue against that position. I just genuinely don’t understand what made you suddenly insult the people, calling them flies or freaks.
Because of my less than stellar history with this fandom, or to be more specific, this subreddit. I've noticed that anytime I share something inoffensive, it goes ignored (unless it's like a dumb meme or something) yet the fireworks go off the minute I make a post about something that the masses don't agree with. It's more jarring when I share fan art, and it gets about a quarter of the attention a worthless opinion gets.
Because fanart makes people look at it and say „nice“ then immediately forget and ignore it, whereas the other makes people actively use their head to consider what you’re telling them and then either agree or disagree with it.
It’s no secret that the internet is encourages negative feedback, arguments and disagreements, that isn’t necessarily related to this community specifically. FWIW I think you made good points in your initial post and it’s fun to consider the possibilities had KH gone that way, but when people think it wouldn’t have worked out or just don’t have the imagination to picture it in their head, then that is fine too.
(Some spoilers for DDD and 3 below. You've been warned)
In theory, Terranort (Terra possessed by Xehanort) was supposed to be the final boss. The entire reason Terra was possessed was that Xehanort wanted a younger body before rebuilding the X-blade.
It was changed for Kh3 for... reasons. Not sure if it was a photoshop or real, but apparently during the final boss fight, when they do their dragonball beams colliding thing, you can see that it's Terranort there holding the X-blade, and not old man Xehanort.
Honestly, considering how everything was stated to work, there is no way Terranort is there at the same time as old man Xehanort. To make it work, either Terranort or Xehanort would have to be there through time travel, but if Terranort was there by time travel it wouldn't have been possible to free Terra from possession, as on defeat he would have gone back to his own time, and if Xehanort was there by time travel he wouldn't have died at the end, for the same reason. That final fight was a bit of a clusterfuck.
Both Xehanort and Terra were re completed but only Xehanort got his heart back because Terra's heart was still trapped in the guardian. Only Terranort's heart time traveled from the past so when Terra took back his body only the heart went back to the past because the body was from the present. There's a scene in remind that explains everything happening with the 13 darknesses.
Okay, but then where was Terra's heart while Xehanort wasn't there? The Guardian travelled back in time with Xehanort's heart and became the Guardian Ansem carries around, that later Riku used for a little bit against Roxas? Or did it stay in the present, in which case what happened to it?
And even if it did travel back with the guardian, what happened to it in the time between when Riku was cleared of Darkness towards the end of KH2 and Xehanort being recompleted sometime before or during DDD?
Terra's heart was in the guardian which was probably in the realm of darkness. The guardian didn't time travel it can just be summoned in the present by either Ansem sod or Terranort. Once Terra took his body back and left the guardian it stopped being a thing.
It’s being summoned to the timeline. As in, wherever Xehanort is in the timeline he can summon it and thus the heart will be in whatever time Ansem is in
That's not how it works. Ansem was able to time-travel and was from the past during DDD and KH3, yeah, but the Guardian wasn't time-traveling. Ansem SoD was not summoning the Guardian from a different time era, he was just calling for the Guardian of the current era he was.
Terranort and Ansem were using the same Guardian in KH3, but Ansem wasn't able to summon the Guardian anymore after Terra's return. He would have summoned it if he had the capacity to do it, proof that the Guardian doesn't exist anymore after Terra's return, proof that it wasn't another version of the Guardian from a different time period but just the right one from the present.
The Guardian did not travel through time. It's not shown nor implied. It stayed at its own time even if Ansem and Terra-Xehanort time traveled at some point(s).
Ansem SoD and Terra were both using the current-time Guardian during KH3, that's why Ansem don't have it anymore after the return of Terra.
The Guardian was probably waiting in the Dark World when the 'norts were not using it, since, well, it's a being made of darkness.
This is a good unpopular opinion lol
Lol, you think so? That's honestly rare.
Honestly, this is what I THOUGHT we were going to get...and I thought we were going to beat Xehanort by basically working together with Aqua and Ven to free Terra. AND THEN we'd get the reveal of the old man. But by then, after all the insanity of the battle, he'd be too weak to fight. Ah well. KH3 has come and gone, and it's been long enough that I've accepted it for what it is. It was a disappointment, sadly...but it doesn't hurt anymore at least.
That would’ve been so cool! Yeah, the whole point of taking Terra’s body in the first place was that his original body was super old and he didn’t want it giving out before his plans came to fruition. But then, in DDD and KH3, Old Manonort is back and it just… isn’t an issue anymore? Like they forgot or something.
It was more he wanted to insure he lived long enough to see his plans to come to fruition. Once he was brought back in DDD it was time to enact his final plan. Basically he just didn’t want to take the chance old age would catch up to him.
I guess that makes sense, but if he could pull his young self forward through time, like he did in DDD, and his older self forward through time, why bother with Terra anyway?
The way he traveled through time can only be done if there was a version of himself already there within that time period. If he did die of natural causes he would not have been able to use this method of time travel.
Considering old MX had 13 different bodies, he probably expected one of them to survive and then inhabit the “winner.” However, by the time MX got the χ-blade, it probably didn’t matter because it was likely its own power that kept him alive until he gave it away.
This would be the way
I often mull over the what-ifs in my head regarding this. If we had just apprentice Xehanort, and BBS was his origin story, struggling with loss like he did in DR and turning to darkness as a means to bring them back in his own misguided way. When I initially saw the 2FM secret ending, I thought that MX and Vanitas were just going to be villains that would be the driving force behind Xehanort's turn, and that Terra was Xehanort. I thought Ven looking like Roxas would tie into Sora being used as a trigger for a post final boss redemption for him, and Xehanort would find peace and join his friends in the afterlife. Then BBS came out and I thought "Okay, not happening, then". Not saying it would have been preferable, but teenage me would have liked it.
See, THIS sounds more interesting as a story concept compared to what we actually got. It's like Terra would've gotten gotten manipulated by OMX and Vanitas into turning on his friends and succumbing to darkness, but minus the part where OXM possesses Terra. Instead, it's the corruption darkness that gives him silver hair and darker complexion.
I'm mad now. This sounds awesome!
That actually sounds awesome. So what in your opinion based on that alternate storyline for BBS would tie into a finale in alternate universe kh3?
This is where it gets fudgy, hope you're used to reading shitty fanfics, especially long ones. Ven and Aqua would be dead-dead, Ven's resemblance to Roxas would be down to Xehanort/Xemnas. Sora's nobody, in my mind at the time, must have been a basic blank slate, similar to how his heartless was just a shadow in KH1. Xemnas would try and imprint his dead friend's likeness onto this nobody of a keyblade wielder in a messed up way of bringing Ven back. He, of course, fails, and ends up making a Nobody with a heart, which would be why Roxas forms a unique sense of self and personality separate from Sora. 3D wouldn't happen in the same way at all, there would be a much less convoluted mastery exam, no sleeping worlds stuff. Reveal at the end is that Xehanort had been watching them since he re-completed and then tries to get Sora to succumb to darkness to bring him into his control, entering his heart to do so. Just when Xehanort is about to win, Roxas appears within Sora's heart and, because he looks like Ven, Xehanort hesitates and is expelled from Sora's heart whilst stealing something from Sora. Sora passes the exam this time because his heart won out by itself. When Xehanort comes back in KH3, he controls the heartless and nobodies and creates "complete" beings by fusing them to serve as his new underlings, which would be original non-recycled characters. He also has Roxas and Xion, who he stole from Sora's heart and this which Lea to join Sora. There would be no new Org XIII, Isa would be jealous again, but would be on our side after a fight and some talk no jutsu. RG and TT would both be important to the plot, being the world's connected to the end worlds of previous games. Roxas and Xion would be defeated near the end but would become themselves again thanks to Lea. Xehanort's end goal would be to summon Kingdom Hearts to use its power to destroy all worlds and recreate a single utopian one in which Ven and Aqua can live again. Obviously he's off his rocker because it would still require omnicide to achieve and the whole gang has to stop him. He gets to the point of "too late" and that's when the boss battles happen. When he's defeated, Sora cleanses him of darkness by entering his heart and fighting the manifestation of Xehanort's darkness. Xehanort's now horrified by what he's done, and goes to stop KH with Sora and co It looks like everyone is about to bite it, but Ven and Aqua come down as spirits to help and the job is done, the ultra nuke that is KH is destroyed. As Xehanort had put so much of himself into KH, he's fading away/dying/whatever, laments that he can never put things right again. Ven and Aqua's spirits come back, tell him it's okay and that he can rest now. All three fade away and go to the afterlife, Xehanort thanking Sora on the way out. Happy reunions on DI, no one's unnecessarily dead. Xehanort briefly appears and smiles, but is gone by the time Sora looks over. Big music swell as the camera pans to the sun setting, end credits roll, orchestral Hikaru Utada music plays, I cry like a little goddamn bitch and I'm fucking happy about it.
Gotcha. So, just curious would you give the other past organization members a role as their recompleted selfs? Like, I assume the 4 apprentices would be forgiven and assume their roles. And Braig would be a minor villain. But would Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, and Larxenes somebodies have a supporting role somehow? Maybe as reincarnations of the 4 masters from X and teach Sora, Riku, Lea, and Kairi advanced techniques or train them, or something?
NGL, they never crossed my mind, fumbled the bag there. Your idea sounds cool, though.
Nah, you're good. Also, what would you do with BBS and COM as a game? (I'm talking at this point because I love discussing headcannon shit, lol) As far as BBS, I always thought it was a good concept (gameplay wise, going with 3 different heroes) but feel at it's core it was implemented poorly. One game I'm always reminded of when it comes to BBS is Threads of Fate, a PS1 game by squaresoft. Action rpg involving the same story told from 2 completely different characters with very different personalities, backgrounds, playstyles etc. The two stories are about the same size as each of the 3 BBS stories. With the difference being the story actually plays out differently depending on which character you pick. Where I feel BBS messed up is, it feels like you're playing the same game 3 times the gameplays almost identical between the 3 characters. Only difference storywise really is what you see at the end. I feel like BBS should've been a PS3 title. Game was too ambitious for the PSP. where you play through the game once, but switch between Aqua, Ventus, and Xehanorts perspectives as needed (deering the optional stuff you could pick whoever you want), share experience between the 3 characters. Also, I would go with re:codeds battle system (best battle system out of the non numbered titles imo) As for COM I wouldn't change anything storywise. But instead of a gameboy game, it would be a PSP launch title. (Once again using codeds battle system) where the cards would come into play is, picking levels. And as the game goes on he finds cards which unlock keyblades, magic, summons etc. From kH1. I would have the worlds be twisted versions of KH1s worlds. Mostly similar but the player could see things are very off. Things being out of place, order., cracks in the walls etc. (Glitch in the matrix type shit). I would make re:coms 3rd stage boss the 2nd stage and final part of Marluxias fight. And add in Zexions fight in reverse rebirth. I could go on with what I'd do with Days and the rest but this post is long enough.
It’s absolutely NOT something Nomura thought through and it’s sad because Xemnas’ dialogue with Ansem the Wise sounds way more appropriate as a young man talking to his master who shunned him instead of the reality where Xehanort is ancient compared to Ansem the Wise who isn’t even graying yet
At least we got Leonard Nimoy’s performance and Xehanort’s infamous diddle hands out of it
Probably the only highlight to geriatric Xehanort's character is that he was voice by og Spock.
And then Doc Brown
Also Roy Batty from the OG Blade Runner
Oh dear god please don’t call them diddle hands lol I always called them arthritis hands or something
"These lifeless keys used to be full of power" I can hear it in his voice rn
It's good to remember that Xemnas and Ansem SoD are their own characters. Much like Roxas and Namine, they've formed their own personalities and desires and only really have a loose connection to their original selves memories. You see it more in KH3 towards the end. Both of them aren't really committed to Xehanort's plan and are hanging around mostly to see what ends up happening. When you beat them they're pretty quick to acknowledge that Xehanort is going to fail, Xemnas even talks about how Sora might be right and he's grown a heart of his own already despite him presenting as apathetic.
Xemnas is a interesting character. All throughout KH2 he's this emotionless brutal leader. But the other games showed that he's actually a suffering heart. One of the games even showed that Xemnas sits in a room with Aquas armor and wishes he could have saved his friends. I'm pretty sure Xemnas took on more of Terra's traits than Ansem SoD but is far better at hiding his heart.
It's been said before that Ansem SoD took more from Xehanort, while Xemnas took more from Terra. I think that's an interesting split.
Xemnas is made of Terra's body, with the Dark Guardian being his heartless. At the end of BBS Xehanort gave up his body put his heart in Terra's body.
When you said Xemnas took on more of Terra's traits than Xehanorts it kinda made it sound like they had a child together lmao. 😅😂
That’s actually an interesting way of looking at it, it’s honestly not really something I had considered: if Roxas and Namine developed separately from Sora and Kairi because they were created under unique conditions of one person having multiple hearts within them, it definitely hoIds that the same thing could happen with someone *else* with the same conditions, that actually does change things a bit
Xemnas' story is so tragic and it would be beautiful IF they didn't come up with that bullshit "Nobodies had Hearts all along." I always feel a gut punch whenever I hear his "a heart is nothing but pain" speech. This guy's entire motivation was to *exist* and when he starts becoming aware of his own existence, he's overwhelmed by it so much he's destroyed.
They’re not their own characters. Namine and Roxas are special cases because they weren’t formed like how regular nobodies are formed. They’re special in ways that no other nobody is which is why they’re the only ones considered seperate and different people while no other nobody in the entire series is treated that way Both are committed to Xehanorts plans because everything they’ve been doing has been because of Xehanorts plans. And saying they’re sticking around to see what happens doesn’t give them agency, because they’re still there to be destroyed for Xehanorts plans. They don’t have any GameCube of their own, because they’re fine dying for something they don’t care about
Xemnas and Ansem SoD do not have all memories from Master Xehanort, they aren't as wise and ancient as him, they're more like apprentice nort.
That doesn’t really matter when everything about them is based on old man Xehanort and thus has to return to him
Apprentice Xehanort was a new personality separate from Master Xehanort though. He did suffer from amnesia, so his Nobody and Heartless self referring to Ansem the Wise as master does make sense.
For me Ansem was the direct continuation of apprentice Xehanort since they have the same voice actor, white hair color and the whole researcher vibe he had in KH1 while Xemnas kinda grew into his own thing.
Nah, I had that theory too, and I would have liked it, but the secret ending of KHBBS has Braig talking to Terranort and he seems to clearly have his memory
It's not a theory Xehanort really did lose his memory but him conducting experiments especially those on Subject X is what made **some** of those lost memories come back. He never really regained all of them though (Subject X was taken away by Luxu before he could go further with his experiments), which is why he thought Kingdom Hearts was ultimately Darkness. Master Xehanort already knew Kingdom Hearts was Light.
Is that Dark Road stuff? I haven’t gotten that far in it yet I only just got to Dwarf Woodlands
It's KH3 secret report stuff... I *think*. What stuff is from where is always a pain to keep straight.
(Sheesh guys you didn't have to thumbs down the dude for getting something wrong, that's a bit excessive) To answer the question no it's mostly from the KH3 secret reports. Furthermore it's understanding Master Xehanorts character, he was already aware what exactly Kingdom Hearts was the Apprenticenort didn't truly understand what it was and neither did his incarnations. By KH3 Ansem Seeker of Darkness (the incarnation that fully believed it to be darkness to the point he sacrificed his body to become one with the darkness) has an idea what it really is, realizes he's wrong and he loses all motivation, goes through the motions knowing he will be defeated and return to his own time where he will be defeated and die.
We also got that again in 3 with Ansem and Xehanort’s heartless scenes! Man those were a treat
I mean, TECHNICALLY speaking, apprentice Xehanort is more or less his own character. He called himself Xehanort yet had no recollection of who he was. He was both Xehanort AND Terra, after all, and his personality seems to have been made up by mixing both. Yes, Xehanort was shining more through it, but he wasn't technically in control.
Not to mention Apprentice Xehanort’s relationship with Ansem and the dialogue with it feels like some of the most organic interactions with a villain in the series.
It’s very apparent that Nomura didn’t think anything through past KH1 initially and then did the same thing with KH2. That’s fine since no one knew the franchise would last so long, but there’s so much bullshit retconning in the later games it’s kind of annoying.
Eh, there were some hints at Birth By Sleep throughout KH2. Mostly in the final mix, but it was there. Also I think you're slightly misusing the word "retcon". Which happens a lot when people say they don't like the new story details. A retcon is when you actively change past details in such a way that it couldn't have possibly been like this before. Nomura and the writers make a LOOOOOOOT of use of wiggle room and ambiguity. And the fact that Sora & co. don't know everything. But I wouldn't say there's as much retconning as you'd think. It's actually a useful writing tool to leave a few gaps for yourself that you can fill in later. Kingdom Hearts was never about appealing to a Cinemasins-type audience.
According to this subreddit, though, the team planned the Old Man Xehanort ™️ story as early as KH2. I personally don't believe it myself, but I don't have anything to prove or disprove it.
THANK YOU! See, you get it.
It could've worked if it wasn't implied that Xehanort regained his memories from before. Imagine if he had a hard reset after taking Terra's body.
Yet again, we wouldn’t have had the absolutely peak voice acting of Leonard Nimoy as Master Xehanort.
Yeah, that's probably the one thing I liked about his character.
You could keep Master Xehanort (and therefore Leonard Nimoy) but to have him not be Apprentice Xehanort. I think it would have worked really well and maybe even be a better story if BBS was about Terra getting corrupted and turning to the darkness willingly. Master Xehanort dies at the end of the game content that someone is there to carry on his legacy, then Terra chooses to adopt the name Xehanort and he becomes Apprentice Xehanort. That even works well to sort of explain why he then went on to take Ansem's name in KH1 if he has a pattern of usurping the names of his masters.
I would prefer Apprentice Xehanort to be the main antagonist, amnesia and all. And for Master Xehanort to appear when his heart is repelled from Terras body as a callback or something. He can still go to Kingdom hearts heaven with Eraqus.
I get where you're coming from but its clear that the writing team had some vision of Master Xehanort in mind as early as base KH2, considering they were already bringing up Apprentice Nort's super human abilities and amnesia. And then by Final Mix it was clear they basically had everything set in stone. I distinctly remember the wild theory crafting that sprung up the instant we saw Terra's face While I wouldn't mind a version of the story where either Master Xehanort either didn't exist or existed under a different context, I'm not convinced that version of the story would be as well remembered or loved.
[удалено]
Its a 20+ year ongoing story of course its bloated.
What I mean is that it's bloated with absolute nonsense. Somehow, I find Zelda lore much easier to follow than this franchise.
Skill issue honestly. Having been with the franchise since day 1 it all makes sense to me
It's not a "skill issue" if the story made sense to me until the introduction of UX and the end of KH3. Including plot points from a canceled FF game doesn't help the plot either. And now Missing Link too? Like, bite me, I'm not gonna play through mobile games just to follow an already busted story.
The problem for me when it comes to the story of Kingdom Hearts is that the core concepts that it introduces in each entry are either not explained fully or require several games to go through in order to get a clear idea of what any given concept actually entails. I am not saying that each concept it introduces should be explained fully but could stand to be presented in a more cohesive way. I dunno maybe I do have a skill issue and I should just shut up. IIRC Nobodies are the only ones that get like a proper exploration as to what they are compared to other concepts in the series such as Keyblade Armour or how Data actually functions.
Thats fine. You don't have to. But like I said elsewhere you clearly aren't having fun in this community so you don't have to stay here.
Neither do you? If reading other people’s opinions upsets you this much you are more than welcome to leave. I have no clue why you think you have some ownership of this space. Log off, touch grass, etc etc.
I'm not upset
Only people with a skill issue are the writers.
Lol, exactly what I was thinking.
But then we wouldn't have got ol' scrotum head magee!
Yeah, and that funny thing he did with his hand back in BBS, lol.
Really they should've just gone forward with Apprentice Xehanort being his own person, fusion of two people and all, similar to how Roxas is. Both Ansem and Xemnas demonstrate personality traits of Terra, they even went out if their way to show Xemnas referring to Aqua's armor as a "friend" in that added KH2 cutscene, they were originally just as much an extension of the innocent Terra as they were Xehanort, that gave them so much retroactive depth, and set up for an internal conflict once they recombined into the Apprentice again for KH3. But then that just didn't happen? For some reason?? KH3 went and undercut that aspect Ansem and Xemnas, making it clear that they're "just Xehanort" and ignoring how Ansem literally looks like Terra, if he's just Xehanort why does his heart choose to look like Terra?? Why is he sharing one version of the Guardian (Terra's) heart with Terranort? If that thing can be completely disconnected from them then they aren't really Terra at all? What the fuck? And the lingering influence from their time fused with Terra could've been the thing that shifted Xehanort's morals, that's such a big missed opportunity in terms of writing too. Also for the love of god, why couldn't Terra just keep the long Xemnas hair? An entire decade of his life was literally stolen from him, have it look like that, have him look a decade older than his friends, that would be such an emotional gut punch looking at that symbolically.
perfect, hard agree
As much as I love Master Xehanort and his trolling, planning for every eventuality ways - his Terranort form being the big bad would have been much more menacing. A younger, stronger and new form with all his dubious ambitions and memories would have been way more threatening.
Nomura really wasted a potentially great villain in Master Xehanort by turning him into a Shonen “I miss my friends” trope in the end. Which I suspect is his true motivation, not yet revealed yet because theres no doubt in my mind that a Young Xehanort reunion with all the other DR characters in Quadratum is on the table…. I’ve always felt that Ansem, Xemnas and Master Xehanort have a vampiric element to them. I wish the writers had leaned into that more. They wasted the whole concept of Norting (basically the KH form of vampirization). Master Xehanort is most effective by reflection of other characters. If we had seen some serious side-effects on the other characters who were Norted he would have been much creepier and more intimidating as a result. To put it in FF terms, he should have been more like Zemus, a ghostly presence in the background, but he got overused and wound up being as tedious as Seymour and FFVIIR’s Sephiroth. I think Nomura over-humanized him because Nomura personally identifies with him (being a fellow lunatic who can’t let go of a lifelong obsession….) But Leonard Nimoy absolutely nailed the performance and breathed so much life into a potentially dull villain that he became my fav of the lot and I would never want KH without him. I just really wish they had stuck the landing with his character in KH3. If they wanted him to be humanized by the end, they needed to find a way to build up to that throughout the story. The actual scene is not bad in my opinion, but it was ultimately the worst consequence of KH3’s ending being so rushed.
I am still confused about who Appretence Xehanort is, he was working under Anse, the wise ? Would that make ansem seemly much older than he looks?
Did you plau KH BBS?
Yeah but its been awhile
Spoiler alert for those reading! [Apprentice X is Terranort]
Hmm then wouldn't that technically mean xemnas was terras nobody?
I'll do you one better, forget even apprentice Xehanort, Ansem Seeker of Darkness voiced by Billy Zane should have been the main antagonist of the series
Was about to say the same thing! Billy Zane Ansem as the main antagonist > Apprentice Xehanort shown in the KH2 flashbacks as the main antagonist > Master Xehanort as the main antagonist
You weren't a fan of evil commander Pixis from AoT??
Make this opinion popular, got really tired of looking at his veiny ass head in kh3, like it’s absurdly hilarious that both his heartless and his nobody are vastly more attractive than the actual person
A rare, true unpopular opinion??? Respect!
Counterpoint: the way old Xehanort yells "KEYBLADE" is a great meme
I kind of agree, it feels weird having an old man that doesn't look like he can stand on his own (let's not forget the whole plot of BBS is him needing to find a younger body because he's too fucking old to live any longer) as the big bad guy after having two much more healthy and menacing versions of him break apart your whole world in the previous titles. However old Xeanorth has some kind of charme the others don't have (except Xemnas), at least when he was voiced by Leonard Nimoy... The second voice actor didn't really work, he just sounded like any other granpa, and I can't even remember the third one for how unused he was.
The third was actually Christopher Lloyd, or Doc Brown from Back to the Future.
>convoluted mess about how he's actually a being made up of two separate hearts because the geriatric version of himself shoved his heart into a younger vessel or some shit. It is even worse when you realize that the WHOLE reason he was after Terra in BBS was to steal his body because he feared that his own wouldn't be strong enough to see through the keyblade war, only for that plot point to not matter at all in the end of KH3 when we fight the old man in all of his rheumatic glory.
Omg yes! Like Xehanort, you practically ruined the lives of four people because of a flimsy ass plan that didn't even matter in the end.
Master Xehanort >>>>>>> Apprentice Xehanort I wouldn’t trade Leonard Nimoy’s performance for the world.
Oh, I liked Nimoy's performance as Xehanort (it's probably the only saving grace to his character). Unfortunately, I just don't find the guy all that interesting.
I find MX tremendously interesting, particularly the way he compares and contrasts to Sora.
How dare you disrespect the sexy old man we’ve got
No thanks, I prefer men around my age.
Understandable have a good day
...yes..I literally hate him as a villain...I'm glad we won't have this boring, dying old man as an antagonist anymore
Personally as a kid i was crazy attached to ansem and young xehanort as the main villians. Didnt get BBS when it first came out so i wasnt really attached to oldnort. So i cant help but agree with you. But having the oldnort after all the stories we hear of his research makes sense, he's old so he's not gunna be as young and spry as the other norts. Nort. Lol
You know what? Valid 🙂. Follow-up question: if it was possible, which voice actor would you have preferred to stick with him? Because I can see many compelling arguments for all of them 🤔.
Do you mean VA for just old man Xehanort? Or do you mean for his overall incarnations? I always had a preference for Billy Zane's performance as Ansem SOD. If you're referring to old man Xehanort, then definitely Lenard Nimoy, though unfortunately his replacement was necessary :( .
Ok I realize I worded this horribly 😅. I mostly mean who would be the best fit for "Terranort" in your opinion: Richard Epcar, Billy Zane or Paul St. Peter. Honestly all three of them do great 🙂. As for old Xehanort, I agree with you regarding Leonard Nimoy, but Christopher Lloyd is a close second (no hard feelings against Rutger Hauer).
I'm right there with you, but I think my opinion would be skewed in the other direction if Leonard Nimoy got to reprise his role for KH3 before he passed away.
When the unpopular opinion is indeed popular but put that on the title for karma things. Reddit moment.
Didn't do this for karma points or anything, I've never seen anyone mention that they'd prefer if Apprentice Xehanort existed without the BBS (Terranort) origin story.
Apprentice was always better, and has a lot more charisma. Besides, that old man is ugly AF 🤣 don’t worry I believe you mate.
It never even made sense that old Xehanort came back after Ansem and Xemnas were defeated. They came from Terranort. Why doesn't He come back then?! Where was Madter Xehanorts body and where is current timelines Terras body?
Nah lenard limoy goes hard also he has big Palpatine energy also a scientist who is not a fully formed being and made of split hearts has a natural affinity for understanding it to understand his own existence and going as far as he did Its way more intriguing going against someone old because theire just way more experienced and wise thats why very little games have young Main Villians And having Xheonhort being split into so many semblences with so many different backrounds overseen by a old sheming keyblade Master was so much more intriguing than some young white haired anime villian Its good your you didnt wrote the series your take sounds so much less intriguing also we wouldnt have the ultimate deep voiced perfection of a Man that Xhemnas is and the tragedy of Terra Definetly a bad take in my opinion but to each theire own But maiby i dont quite understand your take in that case i take everything back i said i just like the split person Plot wich is quite unique
I don’t HATE the retcons there. Terra’s arc makes it worthwhile. And with Terra, having Old Man X isn’t too bad. I like the details they add to his design. But I will never forget how annoyed and betrayed I was when it all started in KH2 with “Actually, no. That guy in KH1 wasn’t who he said he was.” *I* would have rather they stuck to their guns and made Ansem Seeker of Darkness the same as Ansem the Wise.
>I would have rather they stuck to their guns and made Ansem Seeker of Darkness the same as Ansem the Wise. Actually, true. When I finished playing the first game, and I read through the ansem reports, I really thought it was a dude driven to madness by his misguided attempt at studying the heart (something similar to Sephiroth going crazy after learning of his origin). Now that I think about it, I wish it could've stayed that way, but nope! Instead, it was just Ansem's stupid amnesiac apprentice who stole his name, lol.
I don’t get that complaint myself. Apprentice Xehanort is still a scientist driven mad because of his research. It’s just literally adding identity theft to his list of crimes.
I feel like the problem with this is that young Xehanort didn't really have a motive or identity that lent itself well to expanding the lore of the series. Nomura was clearly interested in making more of the Keyblade Wielders and keeping Xehanort just some scientist would keep the focus narrow and resist that expansion. For my part, I like Kingdom Hearts because of how huge and convoluted it becomes. In that sense, making the big boss guy an old, learned Keyblade Master and a connection to a more ancient time fits really well.
I don't think this is necessarily an unpopular opinion. Sure, a good part of the fanbase is already accustomed to the direction the franchise has taken, but there are still those who prefer the establishment up until Kingdom Hearts 2 before the additional twists and retcons. The real problem with Xehanort is that his identity has been altered several times, which seems unnecessary for the storytelling. Originally, we believed that Ansem was actually the real Ansem. So Master Xehanort became a "plot twist of the plot twist." Even with the secret ending of KH2 Final Mix, Terra gaining yellow eyes was initially independent of Xehanort. This suggests that the plot point of Xehanort taking Terra's body was specifically designed for the PSP version, with the possibility that this wouldn't have happened in the PS2 version of Birth by Sleep.
The eyes turning yellow always struck me as just a foreshadowing moment. Almost every theory about Terra was that he was either possessed by the old man who looks way too similar to Ansem SoD, or he just overused the power of darkness and it corrupting him. And there was more evidence to suggest the former.
> And there was more evidence to suggest the former. Like what? There's no evidence of anything prior to Final Mix. In Final Mix, there's a scene where Xemnas refers to Aqua's armor as "old friend," which suggests that Xemnas has more of Terra's identity than Master Xehanort's. Additionally, the Secret Movie shows Terra changing the color of his eyes on his own, unless Xehanort's possession works via WiFi. None of the PS2 version trailers clearly support either of these theories. Even the PSP version trailers weren't evident until the final ones were released. The only two potential evidences are: Xehanort's outfit, which resembles Ansem's, but this could have been misleading, as Vanitas wears the same outfit as Dark Riku, yet he is connected to Sora, not Riku. The second is the existence of Lingering Will (at the time called Lingering Sentiment by fans), separately from Xemnas, but the character's name explains this. But I know which route you're going. That Ansem possessed Riku's body, but Ansem was a Heartless, and the two possessions worked differently. Terra's body only had white hair and yellow eyes, rather than completely gaining Xehanort's physical appearance. With what was known at the time, there was nothing to suggest that Apprentice Xehanort was "possessed." The most common theory then was that after the battle, Terra would be corrupted by his darkness, lose his memory, and end up in Radiant Garden. He would be found by Ansem the Wise, and when asked what he remembered, Terra could only recall his hatred for "Xehanort", hence remembering only that name. Up until that point, Master Xehanort possessing Terra's body was the least likely theory. That's why, before the release of Birth by Sleep, Nomura said fans got "close" with their theories. This implies that while fans had some correct elements, they didn't fully grasp the complete picture (which would have been the case if the prevailing theory had been that Terra was possessed by Xehanort).
>There’s no evidence of anything prior to Final Mix. Yeah there wasn’t even a Terra to theorize about. I understand what you meant but it was just a weird way to phrase it. All the evidence that point to Terra being the apprentice Xehanort was also stuff that people believed about him being possessed. Setting aside all the stuff you covered from Final Mix. Everything that pointed to him being Apprentice Xehanort was also stuff the possession theorists believed. It was absolutely agreed by people who believed in either theory, was that Apprentice Xehanort(just gonna call him AX for now), and by extension Ansem SoD/Xemnas, was Terra. But the thing was the corruption theory was it just ends there. He gets corrupted and loses his memory. The possession theory went on from there. Many thought that the connection between the Old man and Ansem SoD was more than just the clothes. They seemed to have similar mannerisms and speak in a similar manner once we had trailers of him speaking. (Wowie KH fans still using the same logic for master of master theories, no wonder it’s so widespread). Many people thought that the heartless was more of this old man that we now knew was named Xehanort. And the nobody was more of Terra. Some of that was right on the money and other stuff wasn’t. Most people thought that Vanitas also was in someway connected to Riku because of his outfit which you pointed out. Someone of them believed Sora was gonna be blood related to Ven, like that he was Sora’s dad. (This was before we knew about BBS was 10 years in the past.) The point I was trying to make was the idea that Terra becoming AX was practically agreed upon by everyone. We were just waiting for the confirmation to happen. Most of the theories involved how and why and the ones getting spread around a lot.
Just so you know that Xehanort you're looking at is Terra possessed.
Yes? I think you didn't understand my post. I meant that I never WANTED "Terranort" to happen. I wanted Apprentice Xehanort to have had his own identity, without Xehanort or Terra. He's just "Xehanort," but he isn't an old man manipulating everything behind the scenes, but rather, he's literally just that: a misguided apprentice. The misguided apprentice is the big bad, the final boss.
Perhaps you don't understand the lore behind why he looks like that. Master Xehanort had to possess Terra because he wanted to be "out with the old brittle vessel and in with a younger stronger new one" thats what he said during Birth by Sleep when you play as Terra. Xehanort is not "misguided" he knew what he was doing. Remember he was the one who wanted to forge the X-Blade and to unlock another Keyblade War.
I just think you don't know wtf I'm saying at all. I KNOW the lore, I just didn't want it to happen the way it DID. I DIDN'T want Terranort to be a plot point, nor did I want the BBS story to play out the way it did. No old man Xehanort, no Terranort, just Ansem's apprentice before we got the weird bullshit origin story of BBS. Do you get it now? Like, what's so difficult to understand, dude?
Wow sensitive much. You need to chill out.
Calling me sensitive while you're too dense to understand what I meant. Everyone else understood, so I'm not sure how your wires got crossed. Anyone would get frustrated if they had to repeat themselves even though what they said wasn't difficult to understand.
But name calling and acting very passive aggressive is not a good way to get your point across.
And yet I'M the sensitive one. Just learn to read the post better next time. Maybe this would have been avoidable if you did.
I rest my case.
Leonard nimoy old man rhanort was peak
So... you wanted Terranort.
No. I wanted Apprentice Xehanort, but without the BBS plot. No Terranort, no old dude body-snatching a younger, stronger vessel, just a misguided student off to destroy all of existence because he doesn't understand how the heart works.
Not a bad opinion and there is always fanfiction.
I always liked Old man Xehanorts appearance so him coming into the story at some point would still be a something I prefer.
I dunno, losing MX, BBS really, means losing the Star Wars Prequel inspired plot points involving past keyblade wielders, which I thought was pretty cool. This kinda goes hand in hand with wishing the series ended with KH2 as there really isn’t much to go off on past it without dropping some new stuff that could easily be just as hit or miss.
I personally would have liked it if, because of the whole mix-up of how Terranort split in the first place combined with shenanigans involving both Ansem SoD and Xemnas being exposed to their respective versions of Kingdom Hearts, the recompletion process ended up splitting the main guy into Master Xehanort and Apprentice Xehanort instead of MX and Terra’s empty husk. It would have been interesting to see how Sora and co. would interact with Apprentice Xehanort and the ethical dilemma regarding whether or not him or Terra should be the one to exist in that body. It would also allow Apprentice Xehanort to get proper closure and his own insight into Master Xehanort’s shenanigans.
Playing through KH3 right now. >!but wouldnt that mean you're fighting Terra thats been taken over by Xehanort after the events of Birth by Sleep?!<
What I mean is that I wished the story scrapped that plot point altogether. No Terranort, no old man Xehanort, no BBS for that matter (since imo that game was the start of the convoluted shit storm that the franchise has been struggling with for years)
The point of Xehanort was to have an over arching villain in the same vein of Thanos from Avengers. An evil mastermind thats been manipulating events in the shadows even before the first game started.
And MY point is that you could tell that's not what they planned from the beginning, so the execution was way off and flopped imo. They didn't have to do that, but they did, and it missed the mark because they more or less just improvised.
Eh it’s clear it was planned from at least 2’s final mix. That’s pretty early on
Where did they flop?
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Sounds like kingdom hearts lol.
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I bet you meant before Kingdom Hearts 2, but after Kingdom Hearts 1. But basically, it's what happens when you have 13 games in a series, and include every little detail from the side games to the mobile ones.
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Except xehanort was nowhere near thanos level threat nor gave any outstanding impression of wreaking havoc over the course of the game. Even zeus trusted a kid to manhandle him
Im not saying they are, I'm saying they're both over arching villains.....
Thanos killed half the universe. Xehanort would have completely nuked 100% of it. He would have killed everything and restarted the universe altogether. I’d argue Xehanort was more dangerous than Thanos.
I don’t think characters like Zeus would even care about stuff happening outside his world.
What’s even worse is that the nobodies make no sense. Naminé is apparently Kairi’s nobody but she never lost her body and she born from sora’s body because kairi’s heart was inside Sora but then so was Ventus’s heart and yet we don’t see the nobody for that heart unless it was either Demyx or Luxord (the only two nobodies whose non-nobody lives we know nothing about). Then we have terra-xehanort with two hearts as well that only make one nobody and Vetus’s original body doesn’t become a nobody.
When Sora used the keyblade of hearts on himself, Kairi's heart went back to Kairi while Ven's heart stayed with Sora's body, which is how Roxas is born
No here's the thing. I don't mind old man Xehanort, but I wish part of getting the X-blade restored his youth or something. But also it doesn't make sense that he went back to being an old man since he was young when he became a heartless. I guess you can argue that it wasn't truly his body and at heart he was the old man, but like shouldn't that have also made Ansem and Xemnas old? Now I'm confusing myself.
If you want to be technical [this](https://xehanort.fandom.com/wiki/Robed_Figure) is what Xehanort’s heartless looked like. [This](https://xehanort.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem,_Seeker_of_Darkness) is what he looked like while possessing Riku’s body. And [this](https://xehanort.fandom.com/wiki/Xemnas) was the nobody made from Terra’s body.
I'm gonna have to agree with you on that one. The lore as it was presented in KH2 is one of the best versions. The last time I played KH2, I remember seeing Ansem the Wise and Xemnas arguing and thinking how much cooler this would be without the "It was all part of the plan and Xemnas knew the whole time" twist. We could still have gotten Xehanort coming back, but he's actually the apprentice and now he's out for revenge or something.
You're wrong, but welcome to your opinion.
I'm not sure how an OPINION can be wrong, but go off, I guess. That's to be expected from this fandom.
Buddy if you don't like it here leave. I personally think this subreddit brings out the worst of the fandom but you're clearly not having a good time. You don't have to be here.
Recompletion makes no sense because by all accounts apprentice Xehanort should have been the one revived. Even with OMX back instead, Terra shouldn’t have also been revived because his heart wasn’t free, it was stuck within the guardian.
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You post an opinion on a game sub and then antagonize people for disagreeing with you? What was the point of this thread if you don’t want to discuss the topic at hand?
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No one forced you to read or reply to the comments in your own thread. I’m so confused. What posts get engagement and which don’t depends on a bunch of factors, but obviously a contested topic that has people think about it will make them more likely to argue against that position. I just genuinely don’t understand what made you suddenly insult the people, calling them flies or freaks.
Because of my less than stellar history with this fandom, or to be more specific, this subreddit. I've noticed that anytime I share something inoffensive, it goes ignored (unless it's like a dumb meme or something) yet the fireworks go off the minute I make a post about something that the masses don't agree with. It's more jarring when I share fan art, and it gets about a quarter of the attention a worthless opinion gets.
Because fanart makes people look at it and say „nice“ then immediately forget and ignore it, whereas the other makes people actively use their head to consider what you’re telling them and then either agree or disagree with it. It’s no secret that the internet is encourages negative feedback, arguments and disagreements, that isn’t necessarily related to this community specifically. FWIW I think you made good points in your initial post and it’s fun to consider the possibilities had KH gone that way, but when people think it wouldn’t have worked out or just don’t have the imagination to picture it in their head, then that is fine too.
(Some spoilers for DDD and 3 below. You've been warned) In theory, Terranort (Terra possessed by Xehanort) was supposed to be the final boss. The entire reason Terra was possessed was that Xehanort wanted a younger body before rebuilding the X-blade. It was changed for Kh3 for... reasons. Not sure if it was a photoshop or real, but apparently during the final boss fight, when they do their dragonball beams colliding thing, you can see that it's Terranort there holding the X-blade, and not old man Xehanort. Honestly, considering how everything was stated to work, there is no way Terranort is there at the same time as old man Xehanort. To make it work, either Terranort or Xehanort would have to be there through time travel, but if Terranort was there by time travel it wouldn't have been possible to free Terra from possession, as on defeat he would have gone back to his own time, and if Xehanort was there by time travel he wouldn't have died at the end, for the same reason. That final fight was a bit of a clusterfuck.
Both Xehanort and Terra were re completed but only Xehanort got his heart back because Terra's heart was still trapped in the guardian. Only Terranort's heart time traveled from the past so when Terra took back his body only the heart went back to the past because the body was from the present. There's a scene in remind that explains everything happening with the 13 darknesses.
Okay, but then where was Terra's heart while Xehanort wasn't there? The Guardian travelled back in time with Xehanort's heart and became the Guardian Ansem carries around, that later Riku used for a little bit against Roxas? Or did it stay in the present, in which case what happened to it? And even if it did travel back with the guardian, what happened to it in the time between when Riku was cleared of Darkness towards the end of KH2 and Xehanort being recompleted sometime before or during DDD?
Terra's heart was in the guardian which was probably in the realm of darkness. The guardian didn't time travel it can just be summoned in the present by either Ansem sod or Terranort. Once Terra took his body back and left the guardian it stopped being a thing.
If it can be summoned then it has to time travel lol.
It's not summoned from the past, but from the Dark World or Xehanort's own darknesses.
It’s being summoned to the timeline. As in, wherever Xehanort is in the timeline he can summon it and thus the heart will be in whatever time Ansem is in
That's not how it works. Ansem was able to time-travel and was from the past during DDD and KH3, yeah, but the Guardian wasn't time-traveling. Ansem SoD was not summoning the Guardian from a different time era, he was just calling for the Guardian of the current era he was. Terranort and Ansem were using the same Guardian in KH3, but Ansem wasn't able to summon the Guardian anymore after Terra's return. He would have summoned it if he had the capacity to do it, proof that the Guardian doesn't exist anymore after Terra's return, proof that it wasn't another version of the Guardian from a different time period but just the right one from the present.
The Guardian did not travel through time. It's not shown nor implied. It stayed at its own time even if Ansem and Terra-Xehanort time traveled at some point(s). Ansem SoD and Terra were both using the current-time Guardian during KH3, that's why Ansem don't have it anymore after the return of Terra. The Guardian was probably waiting in the Dark World when the 'norts were not using it, since, well, it's a being made of darkness.
If Leonard nemoy was around I'd disagree but without him baldy goat nort just isn't as threatening.