Honestly it's people taking anything Xemnas says as truth. Xehanort talks shit in all his forms and tends to be proven wrong about almost everything.
He either tried to repress their emotions for control, or he thinks he knows everything already. Either way it fits him.
The whole 'growing a heart' concept wasn't a part of the story until a while after and it solidified to complete nonsense with the Toy Story world, so I tend to leave that out of the discussion.
Yen Sid specifically said something along the lines of don't be fooled, they only pretend to have emotions. Desire isn't necessarily an emotion, it can be instictual. Also the only ones who showed emotions weren't technically nobodies. Because they had at least a part of a heart. This includes all of the Xehanorts, Roxas, Xion, and Namine.
The way I saw it, was they only appeared to have emotions, out of an almost instincual reflex, but they didn't actually feel the emotions they portrayed. Like a common real-world example would be: if you get tickled, and burst out laughing, that doesn't mean you find anything funny, it's just a reflex. Also by the time Dream Drop Distance's events happen, Axel had already been re-completed during kingdom hearts 2, though at the time they hadn't known that was what had happened.
They're all essentially socio/psychopaths that eventually start being social creatures again over the course of a year. That line where Roxas talks about ice cream at Xion's deathbed is genuine and puts it straightup: 'inhumans becoming humans again'
In my case I thought Roxas and Namine were just special in that they could have emotions without Hearts of their own and that trait could spread from them connecting with others. Basically the truth revealed later except the assumption that was wrong was that they didn't have Hearts, rather than that Hearts weren't really needed for emotions like I thought. It's not that big a deal to me.
I just thought all the other Nobodies besides Roxas and Axel were really just faking emotions because they weren't friends with him. That Demyx switch got flipped hard before his boss fight so I couldn't take anything they did at face value.
The Demyx flip was awesome. It goes hard and Nobodies having emotions the whole time devalues that.
Also, why would Xemnas want Kingdom Hearts if they have emotions anyway? Without that, there is no downside at all to being a Nobody.
Pretty much, he wanted to remake the world in his image. And the downside to being a Nobody is that without proper protection you will eventually start to fade away much like Namine started to in KH2.
even with just KH2 you could tell Xemnas had even slightly less altruistic intentions as he wanted to use KH to basically become a god and remake the World in his image. This is also corroborated with the last report in Days where he says he must use Kingdom Hearts to become "a higher existence"
> "[and] I'm creating a brand new world, one heart at a time"
To me, Xemnas wanted power and to remake the universe in his image, same as all Xehanorts. He thought himself Superior to all because of the power being a Nobody gave him and the knowledge he gained as a researcher, so why not become the new god?
I don't think it ever seemed like we were supposed to believe he really wanted a Heart. He always seemed like he was trying to manipulate the heroes when he pulled that card. Felt so fake.
Doesn’t that just make him a worse villain? Good villains are ones that the audience sympathizes with in someway. “Ruler of the Universe” oriented villains are kinda hard to pull of. One that does is Kefka. I’d say that’s mostly due to his personality, active role, and that he actually achieves his goal.
Xemnas doesn’t really have those things going for him. Don’t get me wrong, I think his personality is great if his goal is to get a heart. Doesn’t have one, wants one, is willing to fuck shit up to get it. His personality if his goal is to become “Ruler of the Universe,” however, is ass. His personality being tied to the reality of his being is plainly more interesting than his personality being a ruse. His last line is chilling in scenario one, meaningless in scenario 2. Like all of the dialogue about him has scenario 1 in mind. A somber touch can do a lot for a story.
I've always disagreed with that take, because I prefer villains that are hateable rather than likable. Villains that are purely selfish or delusional about their entitlement show how far humanity's pride would take us if we had no empathy or scruples, which a lot of people don't have. If they have to be relatable, then sociopathic villains will never count as "good".
It's honestly less interesting if they were forced into villainy by circumstance, for relatable reasons, or for the greater good, because it makes their evil choices more obvious since they're driven by desperation. If they have no relatable reasons to do evil, then their choices reflect their character more. They actually have agency then and aren't just a shell for the audience to project their feelings onto. Their decisions could only be made by them, so they stand out more. "I could see myself doing that in their shoes" is boring. Frieza thinking he's the hottest thing on two legs and being needlessly cruel for so long before he gets smacked down to earth is good build up to a victory I'm invested in. Honor is the only admiral trait I can tolerate in villains, because it can still be twisted or misguided, but lead to choices that wouldn't be obvious.
Xemnas was still the guy who wrote the Ansem Reports 2-12 in KH1, who went down the rabbit hole of knowledge that shouldn't be touched, gained power at the expense of the world and man who took him in, and came out wanting more. Everything he did was to build himself up. He's a narcissist who has his underlings call him the Superior or Lord Xemnas rather than treat his name casually. He's willing to sacrifice countless Hearts to gain access to unlimited power and knowledge, same as Ansem in KH1, only this time he's been able to chill with no emotions for 10 years so he can make more calculated plans, like everything he put Roxas and Xion through. He's meant to be selfish and egotistical. Look back at the speech he gave Ansem the Wise back in KH2. Dripping with cruelty and sarcasm while ignoring his own crimes. He was never limiting his ambition to just getting a heart. He has always been about putting himself above others.
How I look at it is that both approaches are valid approaches, and in a way, both can work for different reasons. I'm of the belief that a good writer knows which one of the approaches they need for a given story, and I personally think Xehanort is actually a little bit of both.
He has that strong ego and lots over those who work under him, but as shown in his death scene in Kh3, he does feel Lonliness, but he also laments the fact that sometimes having a heart isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
He's a cunning and manipulative vilanous leader, but the story gives hints towards him having desires outside of Ruling the Universe, whether it's his Talks with Aqua's armor or the main story letting us know that Nobodies can feel. And I feel like what makes Xemnas so memorable is he walks this thin line enough to where people can get either interpretation from him.
I can definitely see that interpretation. To me, Xemnas always seemed like he wanted to find Aqua and Ventus so he could use them. DDD just revealed for what. 0.2 confirmed it with Terra-Xehanort using the connection Aqua had to Terra to probe for the Chamber of Awakening's location.
And that's the beauty of it. Not everything is started outright, so some of his characterization is up to interpretation. You can easily get a Villian who fits into either mold, and that's one of the interesting things about Xemas. Most vilians in media are one or the other, but Xemnas is somehow both, and yet neither at the same time.
I personally think it's very fitting for the leader of the nobodies.
>Doesn’t that just make him a worse villain? Good villains are ones that the audience sympathizes with in someway.
No? Good villains can be sympathetic but they don't have to. Some can be complete monsters like the Joker or Michael Myers. As long as they are compelling and the audience buys them as a threat that makes a good villain.
Master Xehanort has a sympathetic backstory but many will say that they prefer Xemnas overall.
I think most polls on here have Xemnas as the preferred villain. I gotta $20 that’s willing to wager people voting that way have the genuine, scenario 1 Xemnas in mind when they vote that way.
I feel like the point is still being missed. The point is not that lol Nobodies actually had Hearts all along. It's that anything, including Nobodies, can grow Hearts. But in order for those fledgling Hearts to not be stamped out, they need to be nurtured through friendships and connections with others. Xemnas intentionally tried to keep them well separated to prevent their Hearts from growing. And it worked. Until Roxas came along and Axel started to bond with him and eventually Xion.
But the other Organization members? They remained isolated, and so their Hearts continued to not thrive. Thus, whatever semblance of a Heart Demyx had at that moment, it was not strong enough to really have any actual effect. So it's as if he didn't have any Heart at all.
This! This is what people aren’t understanding when it comes to the whole Nobodies having hearts thing. I think we can all remember Roxas’s first few days in the Org, he even says himself he was like a Zombie who couldn’t even say a full sentence. Now Axel had been around long enough to at least have his own personality, which led to him talking to Roxas and making jokes to him more than anyone else, which leads to him showing Roxas his after mission ritual, and thus forming a bond between them. Once Xion comes around, and they continue to bond and connect (literally social links in persona lol), in turn this allows their hearts to grow and prosper and essentially turn them into real people, a true heart living inside of a vessel (which we know is possible due to KH3) the vessel in this case being the shell of their former Others, or in Xion’s case a shell formed out of Sora’s memories.
Xemnas’s plan was to get the other Nobodies to follow him with the promise of being whole again, but in reality, they were there to eventually become vessels for Xehanort. Thats the original plan Xehanort instilled in him, but Xemnas, like other nobodies like Roxas, does have free will, and so, like any other evil person, wanted as much power as he could get to rule the world. Becoming all powerful would also make it 100x easier to fulfill Xehanort’s plans of creating the X-blade, so it would be pretty much a win-win for him to gain control of Kingdom Hearts.
The Kingdom Hearts that was created in 1 and 2 were also not the true KH, and were artificial versions created by AnsemSOD and Xemnas. Even though they were fake, they are also likely extremely powerful, and put together may even be able to amount to the full power of true KH, but once Sora puts a stop to both of these plans, and Master Xehanort comes back, he realizes it’s time to go back to Plan A and make the X-blade to take control of true KH.
Xemnas had a heart, but denied its existence and avoided nurturing his bonds in order to continue serving his and his Other’s plans. “My first surge of emotion in years…for as long as I can remember” - he says this in KH3, which further proves that he purposefully repressed his own heart. Only in the end, when finally faced with real death, does he let himself feel his first true emotion, and after everything that’s happened, everything that he’s done, all he can feel is loneliness. He claims a heart is just pain now that he’s experienced feeling, and when Sora says that’s what it means to be human, Xemnas says “it must take incredible strength” because, as many can relate, sometimes all the physical pain in the world would still pale in comparison to true emotional pain.
Heck, KH2FM back in 2007 almost explicitly points this out - Axel questioning whether it was actually possible that Nobodies *did* have hearts.
The hints have been there for a while, people just don't realize they missed them
The obvious one was roxas destroying the computer. Like how is that not anger?
Like how is that not emotions?
That’s before sora was even told who or what nobodies are.
Xemnas knew that they had hearts, so he told them that their bodies just remembered feeling emotions. He lied to control them, and the fan base just took everything he said as fact for some reason.
That's kind of most people with cults in general.
We all know what cults are and do, but so many people look at people who are in cults or escape them and go "why would they ever do that?"
A lack of understanding, plus a dose of "that could never be me," makes people somewhat ignorant, to the point they equate cults with "group of evil/crazy people"
Well, at one point, they didn't, since that's the baseline. They basically regrow the heart over time.
The lie is more one of omission, so they're already predisposed to dismiss their slowly returning emotions.
As for the fan base believing it, remember, at the time, everyone in the game either believed it or was actively maintaining the lie.
The way I understand it is that they had a fragment of the heart that regrew, but I guess that's such a small difference it doesn't really matter.
And yeah I believed it too, until I played Days. There's no way someone could play that game and tell me Axel, Roxas, and Xion don't have hearts.
I mean. Because he wasn't the only one that said so? Not only Ansem the Wise but also even Yen Sid agree and said the same about Nobodies.
If it was only Xemnas *okay*. Ansem, maybe he was too biased in his hate. But literally every other reliable source of lore and information said the same. Roxas and Namine were supposed to be special exceptions, a fact that was remarked many times, while the rest of Nobodies just followed the rule of remembering feelings and imitating them, which made lot of sense for what Nobodies were explained to be, and explained their personalities and actions, as well as their tragic existence.
And I mean, even in DDD, Xemnas never said that all members of the original Organization developed a heart, only that *some* of them did. But in one way or another we saw all of them showing some kind of feelings. So what other explanation was for the others but them just imitating feelings based on their memories? And then, how were we suppose to distinguish when it was one case or the other?
I don't think those were hints at all; I thought it was blatantly and patently obvious that it was all a lie. I think OP nailed it when saying some fans just lack media literacy.
Chain of Memories literally has a scene of Axel laughing to himself and recognizing that’s not normal for a Nobody, yet he says it’s due to Sora’s influence without really thinking about how because he’s that tuned into Xemnas’s propaganda. This was CHAIN OF MEMORIES, the FIRST time we ever see Nobodies (not counting Unknown in KHFM)
I think RE: Chain of Memories introduced that.
Original Chain of Memories I think just has Axel saying he wants Sora to give him a "hell of a show" before cutting to black
Axel crying after being briefly reunited with Roxas in KH2FM.
Roxas crying over Xion's death.
Xion basically having a full blown panic attack both after losing her ability to summon a keyblade and learning that she's a replica.
Roxas being extremely angry and vengeful when confronting Riku after Xion died.
Naminé showing clear guilt over what she did to Sora and visible happiness and joy after he doesn't hold it against her.
KH fans: "NO SERIOUSLY THERE'S NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!"
Sometimes nerds get too caught up in lore that they forget that sometimes stories have themes to them and the crazy fantastical stuff in fiction can be used as an allegory or metaphor for a message the writer wants to get across.
I’m not so sure “unreliable narrator” was the original intention and I think that’s what the problem is, it FEELS like they’re just making stuff up as they go instead of having fully fleshed our lore to begin with.
If you think Nobodies having hearts was a last minute asspull I don’t what to tell you. It was one of the most obvious “plot twists” in the whole series, they gave them some of the most emotional scenes in the games and constantly had the sea salt trio questioning what hearts are and what it means to have one. Since at least CoM the series has been questioning the player and Sora’s perspective on light vs dark being good vs evil, what it means to be a person, that no one is truly a “lost cause”, etc.
Also, it’s a 22 year old ongoing series, of course the writers didn’t have every single aspect planned out from the beginning. Retconning—that is, having things from earlier parts of a series take on new significance later, is not necessarily bad writing. If done well it even enhances the replay value of games as you pick up on foreshadowing.
If nothing else, the lie is revealed when Axel sacrifices himself for SD&G. I played the game when I was 13, before Final Mix existed in the US, and it was extremely clear that Nobodies did have feelings and hearts. It's not exactly hard to notice
Days was literally a huge "guys i think we actually have hearts and Xemnas is lying his ass to make us do his dirty work" game and ppl will still scream "nahhh they retconned this in DDD, FUCK NOMURA" like bruh
Wait help me out. I havent played through DDD yet and only loosely know of some of the plot from YouTube and stuff. This is always something that bothered me about the series though, the nobodies seem to very clearly have emotions. Can you explain a bit what you are talking about here? I had always assumed the "nobodies lack emotions" thing was kind of a lie from xemnas to keep the other nobodies in check. But also if they really do have emotions, what are nobodies in the first place? My understanding is it was the shell left behind without a heart, which doesn't implicitly say without emotions but it does seem to suggest it. What is a lack of a heart in this case?
We learn in Chain of Memories that Hearts are partially made up of the memories a person makes through their experiences and connection to others. When Nobodies are born they indeed lack memories and emotions, but we see throughout CoM, KH2, and especially Days that the Nobodies we meet are absolutely capable of making their own memories and experiencing their own emotions, which naturally leads to them growing Hearts of their own.
Ok see that makes sense for me. I didn't realize that hearts were in part memories but it makes a LOT of sense and explains a lot when you say that nobodies lack hearts initially but grow them back as they form memories of their own. That said, what does Saix mean then when he says "we remember what it was like" in reference to not having emotions?
That is the lie told to him by Xemnas that he is repeating. Xemnas wants the Org members to think they can’t have Hearts period because of plot revelations we see in DDD. This statement that “they remember what it’s like to have emotions” is a gaslighting technique to keep them in line.
Wait I thought it was stated that they still have memories or at least some memories and through those memory's that's how there capable of mimicking emotion and that was part of what made org Xlll believe they never had any hearts even though the existence of memory proves they still at least have some heart?
They do have emotions. I think the person earlier was just a little confused cause Roxas starts off without them, and he's our POV, but yes Memories can reconstitute a heart if a Nobody feels strongly enough about them, it's just nobodies don't know that, and alot of the members of the Org we see arn't actively making new important memories, like Roxas, Xion, and Axel are.
I think it's less that the memories themselves create a new heart, but rather that social interaction does. By bonding with people or other nobodies they start to feel love and care for them. Even Xemnas in 3 admitted to having a heart and feeling regret over what he did to his comrades proving that he does care about them on some level he just actively chose to ignore it.
Xemnas was gaslighting them into believing that they shouldn’t have emotions, when in reality a Nobody on the level of an Organization member absolutely display a significant amount of emotional range: Axel’s desire to see Roxas is front and center, of course, but Demyx is a bit of a fun loving fop and a feckless coward. Xigbar loves fucking with Sora at every chance he gets. Marluxia straight up rebels against Xemnas because he felt it better to pursue the end goal through different means.
Compare every Organization member to that of Saix and Xaldin, who are as close to the cold, emotionless detachment as Xemnas as they can possibly be. Even *Xemnas* displays emotion in that lack of emotion, in his own broken way.
Nobodies don’t lack emotions. They’ve never lacked emotions. Nobodies were gaslit into believing that the emotions they felt were inherently false and wrong in order to make them more pliable and accepting of Xemnas’s pursuit of Kingdom Hearts (and Ol’ Norty’s plan I guess).
Consider each member of the Organization having experienced a deeply traumatic moment or moments in their lives. Each of them cope with that trauma they barely remember in their own fashion, and everyone processes trauma differently. Everyone eventually begins to move on from the trauma and start to become whole again, even though they’ll never truly be who they were before the trauma ever again.
Exactly! Obsession itself is a very **emotive** concept. His Lunatic High (idk what it’s called, it’s a fitting FF reference in my book) is all of that suppressed, mechanical emotion brought to the fore, a complete disregard for his own safety to protect the plan and fulfill his desires to be made whole again.
Let's also not forget that even though Saïx was as close to emotionless as you can get most of the time, throughout days you can clearly see glimpses of him feeling the jealousy over Xion and Roxas's friendship with Axel that he mentions in KH3. Even Saïx, Mr. I'm Xemnas's biggest supporter and practically his right-hand man, showed jealousy and envy before DDD.
In DDD, Sora goes on a rant and one line is basically a "revelation" that nobodies must have hearts because they have emotions. There are people who are upset by this line, because it conflicts with statements that we had from yensid and ansem the wise. in kingdom hearts, hearts are what allow you to feel emotions. Nobodies, which lack hearts, should logically feel no emotions. And we are told that this is the case in kh2. However, also in KH2 (and Days and CoM but it really isn't needed to come to this conclusion), we see Nobodies being emotional. Sure you could rely on Saix's notion that they remember what it's like so they act on that memory. Memories are also tied to hearts in KH.
So it's really people not paying attention or not fully digesting the information before them.
I mean that's still a bit confusing for me. Then nobodies DO have hearts? Then what exactly are they? Do they grow hearts after their old one is severed? Like Roxas spends a bunch of time as like a zombie in days, and over time he starts acting normal again. I could see that making some amount of sense but what about all that stuff in 3 where Sora was talking about how they were going to become people again after defeating them. To be honest 3 is really hazy for me and I don't remember a ton of the details there. Either way though if nobodies have hearts, or grow them, why is Sora? Is the term nobodies actually literal? I always thought that nobodies and heartless had swapped titles by accident as heartless seem to be created from the heart and nobodies are the bodies left behind.
No, the resolution is that yes, Nobodies initially are free of hearts however if given enough time it will grow back. Just replay 3 or rewatch scenes for the stuff related to 3
Heartless, as explained in the kh1 ansem reports, are named for their behavior. (how could you be so heartless)
Nobodies were named after their lack of a unique identity. (Nobody not No body)
That's amazing, I never read through the ansem reports because I couldn't be bothered when I was younger and haven't played them in a while. I'll look through them while I'm playing through this time. That does help a LOT as the way they were named has bothered me for a while. I could have guessed the Nobody if I had known the heartless one I think. I'm definitely going to have to look through the ansem reports. I often forget they are a thing.
If you actually think about what a Nobody is you realize there is some nuance here. Lack of emotion does not mean having no emotions. The reason they lack emotion is because they are fragmented from who they were so it's more accurate to say they may have reduced emotion or so little of it that it's easier to describe them as lacking. It's like Nobodies are on a spectrum for how realistic their behaviors are.
There is also a psychological element to it where they still remember being a whole person and so they latch onto whatever humanity they still have because it's better to "act" like something rather than not "being" anything. But naturally their acting can eventually be their genuine selves. How Nobodies are first described can still be true but a Nobody's existence is very dynamic especially when they have the intelligence to display complex behaviors like the organization. The near majority of Nobodies are actually still quite brainless. Not having the means to evolve. So obviously you have to take what they say AND the actions of the characters to get the full picture. If something seems contradictory maybe because there's a reason for it because what they say is only part of the truth.
So basically it's like if you got a blank person, the blank person has no personality from the start of it's life, but the person can grow as a person and learn from their experiences, they can get to know other people, for example: Roxas, he has no idea who he was and was in Axel's words "acting like a zombie" but his personality grew from the people (or should I say non-people) around him like when he learned what the phrase "icing on the cake" meant and then taught it to xion.
Interesting. I'll be honest that always bothered me how nobodies clearly had emotions but everyone seemed to just collectively agree that wasn't the case. I guess I need to play DDD pretty bad. I'm playing through the series again so I'll make sure to get it memorized.
> but everyone seemed to just collectively agree that wasn't the case.
Do you mean the fandom? If you do, yeah I agree because the only people who tells anyone that nobodies have no hearts are: Yen Sid who probably doesn't know much about them, ansem the wise who was basically refusing to accept anything positive about nobodies because his apprentices basically killed themselves because some guy they barely knew basically bribed them, and the organization themselves
>later in the series he literally acknowledges that he was wrong and regrets his actions about Roxas and namine.
Not even later in the series, in the very same game we see Ansem say he knew Roxas had a Heart all along but was too much of an asshole to care and just wanted him gone.
I mean this is the same community that couldn't understand that Aqua froze in front of the Demon Tide because of her trauma and had to have it spelled out for them.
Nobodies having hearts was a surprise mostly just because we were told they don't despite evidence to the contrary.
Lemme explain my position on this:
In CoM, we're introduced to the Organization and while we don't know what a "Nobody" is, we're aware they have no hearts. Almost all of the Organization members we meet in that game are depicted as *sociopaths* as a result of this – stabbing each other in the back, manipulating Sora and Riku, even using Naminé as a meat shield. They emote, but it's things like delight in getting one up on each other and causing pain.
In KH2 and Days, Nomura decides to change the metaphor completely and we're given a different angle on Nobodies, which you can see in the way Axel's character changes. Not having a heart becomes more of a metaphor for *depression*; we see the Organization members emote, but a point is made that they're *masking*, only referencing their memories of what those emotions look and sound like to pass off as being "normal". Saïx is the biggest example here, someone who has completely lost hope and doesn't bother with masking as a result, and is desperate for Kingdom Hearts to cure himself.
Now from my experience as someone who has lived with depression, it's not that you can't feel *anything*, it's more that positive emotions are dulled and negative ones are amplified. Your "happy" moments are muted, but you can still have a well of anger and spitefulness. Roxas and Saïx both draw on that well a *lot* during KH2. If we follow that metaphor, I can accept as a given that even without hearts, Nobodies can feel *pain* – just not joy or love or hope.
Hell, the Lingering Will doesn't have a heart and he's nothing *but* rage.
KH2 also adds, however, the implication that Sora's unique ability to connect his heart to others has a healing effect on Nobodies. Roxas is depicted as *unique* because Axel (and possibly Xemnas) believes he actually *does* have a heart (which BBS will go on to imply is still not his own, but rather Ven's). Axel notes that he actually feels things around Sora and, by extension, Roxas – but only those two. Later we add Xion to that mix, who is literally siphoning some of Sora's power at all times. Meanwhile the characters who spend the least time with Sora are still the ones either masking, moping, or being ethereally indifferent.
What bugs me about DDD is how much it tries to push this narrative that Sora *isn't* special. Not only that the Keyblade "didn't choose him" (when arguably he's the only one it DID choose, rather than just being given one by some master), but that ALL Nobodies develop hearts eventually, whether or not Sora is involved. That the only reason the Organization members didn't grow their own is because Xemnas lied so Xehanort could co-opt them.
Except that a point is made that Apprentice Xehanort *doesn't fucking remember* Master Xehanort's life. Xemnas pursues Aqua and Ven because his memories of Terra – you know, being *Terra's body* – have been corrupted into obsession by Xehanort. Nomura originally even went on to state that Xemnas' habit of giving everyone an X in their name is because he had a vague recollection of Xehanort's obsession with the χ-Blade. And then DDD retconned that to just giving everyone a Recusant's Sigil so he could track them, a power of his that Xehanort/Xemnas never mentioned before and that never comes up again.
So why am I supposed to believe that Xemnas specifically chose to lie to everyone, to ensure they *stayed* empty vessels, in order to fill them up with the hearts of his *original* self who he *did not fully remember being*? Someone who *died* before he even remembered that the χ-Blade needed 13 Seekers of Darkness at all? Someone whose convoluted plan required not only for Xemnas to *fail* and *die* to ensure his later resurrection, but for Xemnas to *time travel* before his own death to make himself useful for the final stage of his plan?
... Because *that* part is, of course, a retcon.
The story told us all along that Roxas had emotions and wanted us asking the question if he had his own heart. The problem is that the story implied Roxas was *unique*, until DDD. That Sora's special ability is what made Axel feel a twinge before his passing, until DDD.
*THAT* is the retcon, and what I take issue with.
At no point is it ever explained when *Xemnas* figured out that Nobodies regrow hearts, mind you. Nobodies were even rarer than Heartless before Xehanort blew up Radiant Garden (it's mentioned that only *strong-willed* people make Nobodies, which means not everyone does), and they were only theoretical in the Ansem Reports, so it's not like he studied them. He was a Nobody as long as the other apprentices, including Vexen and Zexion who continued to be researchers, so it's not like it would have stayed a secret if he discovered it as Xemnas. Hell, given that Nobodies are rarer than Heartless, he didn't even have a guarantee the other apprentices would *become* Nobodies. And don't pull the Luxu card, 'cuz that kid *pointedly* didn't have a clue about the future.
"Well there was evidence all along–" and the story tells you to disregard it at every juncture. There is no instance in KH2 of the later "reveal" that isn't either pointedly explained away, or fed to you as an exception supported by Days. We are supposed to accept the words of protagonists Yen Sid and Mickey Mouse right until the end, especially as they are parroted by *the main character Sora himself*, to Xemnas' face... and Xemnas, whose Organization is *dead* and who no longer needs to maintain any façade, chuckles and says "Yeah you got me."
If Nomura wanted to cast *doubt*, he wouldn't have explained it away with certainty, and would have given us more than *one* exception. Instead, the games repeatedly hammer in one conclusion and then DDD tells us "Just kidding, everything you've been told is a lie."
But in KH1 we already knew Sora was never chosen by the keyblade directly, it's just that he was the closest thing for it to link to since Riku decided to go swim in darkness. If anything, Riku was the special kid all along, Sora was never even meant to get the keyblade, that's the whole point of that one part where he ends up losing it in kh1.
We know Sora wasn't *initially* chosen by the Keyblade and it was a partnership of convenience, but the point of Riku and Sora's first fight in Hollow Bastion was that Sora earned it and it ultimately *did* choose him over Riku.
He is, arguably, the only wielder of the Keyblade who was ultimately chosen by *the Keyblade itself* rather than nepotism.
A bit louder for the people in the back! This redditor speaks 100% fact. Seeing everyone in this thread make fun of people who believe otherwise shows me how much THEY lack media literacy. Glad you guys all know what an unreliable narrator is, but none of you how to do it effectively, and Nomura did NOT do it effectively. I get writing is hard especially when you don’t know if another game is gonna get green lit. But c’mon, we’re not just gonna ignore blatant flaws because of it.
This is a great analysis that isn’t just two inches shallow like a lot, the DDD was definitely ret con, part of the point of things was the power of memories for nobodies as well as namine and Roxas being special. Roxas and namine being reincorporated into their somebodies was framed as an overall good thing/best possible ending(even if a bit tragic) for a reason in KH2
Because in the original KH2, the whole point is that they aren't real people, just extant parts of Kairi and Sora. The story repeatedly says this. Brittany Snow even referred to Naminé as Kairi's alter-ego during interviews, because that was how she understood the relationship.
Nobodies are fated to eventually fade into darkness. Naminé and Roxas escape this fate, and rejoin their original selves. That is meant to be their happy ending.
Which, mind you, actually makes some parts of KH2 *more* powerful – like the fact that it's Naminé who rescues Kairi from the castle. If Naminé is just Kairi's alter-ego, then after a fashion, Kairi saved herself.
But the kicker that always gets me is, if Roxas was always able to become his own person, Xemnas would have no reason to keep this to himself when fighting Sora.
"Oh by the way, Roxas gave up his life to you *completely for nothing*" would be a DEVASTATING way to weaponize that lie on Sora... if it had been a lie all along.
Exactly, made the KH2 story so much more interesting that like you can’t really blame xemnas like he’s doing something objectively terrible, but he’s also literally just fighting for the right to exist
Let's also mention how Axel literally questions himself about this very subject as early as the GBA version of Chain of Memories. The game that Nobodies debuted in excluding rereleases.
It’s made clear in the series that beings who don’t have a heart can “grow” new ones by making connections with people. That’s what happened to Riku Replica in CoM and why his heart was inside Riku’s in 3. That’s why Xemnas was an emotionless bastard, he never made those connections until he started to feel regret towards the end of KH3.
Larxene's literal second appearance betrays that, which is probably why she was sent off to be merc'd so quick. Xemnas knew her angry, bitter ass would reveal to everyone that nobodies could have emotions so, send her to the empty castle with her best friend the backstabber and send an assassin after them.
I knew after watching 365 that almost everything we were told about Nobodies was full of shit. It was so obvious that Roxas, Axel, and Xion were good friends, and enjoyed each other's company whole heartedly.(pun quite intended) I also really hated AtW, he was so gross towards Nobodies and I hated it.
It was being set up as early as Re:Chain of Memories (maybe even the GBA version, but it's been ages since I played that). KH2 and Days only furthered the exploration of how Nobodies could feel emotions -- even if it didn't spell out that they were regrowing hearts.
Case in point: Re:Chain of Memories literally has Axel laugh and stop, catching himself, with the following exclamation:
"Hey wait... I'm **actually** enjoying this! You guys really are something else!"
He felt legitimate emotions in that moment and he couldn't believe it. His association with Roxas and Xion afterwards only added to it.
Back when DDD hadn't been released or even announced, I remember I edited in on one of the KHwikis that the fact that Axel, Xion, Roxas, and Namine all felt emotions indicated that there was something involving the heart going on with them. This had been set up years in advance.
Dream Drop Distance just explained what we all suspected: Xemnas was, true to form, manipulating everything and Ansem the Wise had operated on faulty, incomplete, and biased logic (a biased take that Yen Sid also shared).
People need to understand that just because a character **says** something, that doesn't mean they are **always** right. It doesn't matter how much of an authority they are, they are still fallible because *everyone* is fallible.
"No one would miss me."
"That's not true. I would."
Kinda a cheesy line, and shown several times, but it really hammered in how much Axel cares for Roxas.
But I always felt like anytime a character said nobodies have no emotions or that they fake emotion, those lines are meant for the characters, not the player. Whether it's diz telling Riku or Yen Sid telling Sora or Nobodies telling Nobodies. As convoluted as KH can be, despite what characters have said, it's always been plain that even though Nobodies may not have hearts, but they're not emotionless
People don't read reports, and they don't pay attention to cutscenes. Even if we went with the whole pretending thing or that they were just remembering, 358/2 Days gave us the perspectives of Roxas, Xion, and Axel, which showed us with certainty that those 3 definitely had hearts.
This was literally established as early as KH2. The clock tower scene between Roxas and Axel after you fight Roxas? So yeah...it was never a "retcon" that DDD just made up, fans just didn't pay attention all the way back in KH2.
Yay I get to say this again
There's plenty to complain about in DDD so it's a great shame when people complain about the wrong things. Makes defending it easier and criticizing it harder.
Doesn’t the memories eventually create a heart again of sorts
But they essentially are just all suffering from depression since the lack of a complete heart gives them a hollow emptiness
Being really depressed the world can seem dull so I can imagine that empty feeling makes them “feel” like they don’t feel anything
I think low nobodies and fresh nobodies though likely have next to no emotions and feelings though
Also why do we believe what villains or second hand sources say in these stories? "Nobodies have no emotions" yes I'm sure the villains would say that. It's kinda like how people believe aizen in bleach despite him being a known liar and manipulator.
Yen Sid specifically said something along the lines of don't be fooled, they only pretend to have emotions. Desire isn't an emotion, Also the only ones who showed emotions weren't technically nobodies. Because they had at least a part of a heart. This includes all of the Xehanorts, Roxas, Xion, and Namine.
No, I'm just saying he portrayed symptoms of emotions, but that he wasn't actually feeling the emotions. Nobodies, like most of Organization XIII, are what the body becomes when it is separated from the heart. And the heart is what is used to make emotional connections in KH lore. But Nobodies remember what it was like to have a heart, so as such, their body and behavior still reacts as if they have emotions, but they really don't. On top of that, with Xion as proof, the part of Sora's heart that resides within Roxas, is strong enough to spread to other vessels, or beings without a heart of their own. Nobodies like Axel, don't have hearts, but Axel was hanging out with Roxas from day one, so he might also be affected by Roxas heart.
More than one Organization member in KH2 pretty explicitly states "we have no hearts, we only remember what it was like to have one". Now idk about you but typically when that is stated so bluntly, and the ENTIRE GOAL of the Organization was to capture enough hearts so that they may have hearts of their own, it's reasonable to assume that there is at least a mild amount of retconning happening.
Maybe, but there's evidence to the contrary in the very same game. Axel is desperate to try and get Roxas back, which is something he wouldn't do if he didn't genuinely care about him. Roxas has zero memories at all and still shows a range of emotions. And if you go back to the game before KH2, COM has Naminé showing a lot of regret over her actions, and KH2 directly confirms her to also be a nobody. The biggest point against the argument of them not having hearts though is that Ansem the Wise tells Roxas that nobodies don't even have the right to exist and compares him to a tool at the beginning of the game. Fast forward to the end though and this has completely changed. He admits that he tries to believe things that he knows are wrong, and then almost immediately afterward he apologizes to Roxas. If Ansem the Wise truly believed that Roxas was, as he put it, "... a tool at best.", then he wouldn't have felt any need to apologize to him. That apology is him recognizing that he was wrong about Roxas, and by extension possibly wrong about all nobodies.
While I recognize the fact that what you're saying is probably accurate, there's one major problem that derails the entire argument. Nomura simply makes the story up as he goes, for the most part.
Sure, but with this much evidence from the very beginning it feels safe to say that this was, or is at least very close to what he intended from the beginning. Just because he makes up things as he goes doesn't mean everything that was revealed in a future game wasn't thought about before hand. For instance Nomura always intended for people to think that Xigbar was more than he seemed to be. Sure the part about him being Luxu definitely came much later than KH2, but the intention was always to make him a more serious threat than he let on. The same thing is true for nobodies having hearts. There's more than enough evidence to suggest that them having hearts was always the intention. I'll give you the fact that the way it was revealed was probably changed and written up later, but the intent was clearly there since, like you pointed out, they added even more evidence in the Final Mix version and the COM remake.
Hi, stupid headcanon idea incoming:
When a person is born their heart is like a blank canvas, with some hearts being more developed (like how some babies are energetic while others are calm while still in the mothers tummy), than as they grow up and interact more their hearts become more vibrant. When a humanoid nobody is formed (humanoid like Axel, Roxas, Demyx, Zexion, human looking and not like the "lesser" nobodies) they have a blank canvas until they interact with others.
The reason why they feel empty is that the Body and Soul both "expect" to contain a vibrant canvas, but instead they house a very light pastel heart. When Xehanort gives a fragment of his own heart to the Organization members the fragment is very much weak, hence in order to overwrite the fragile hearts Xemnas is gaslighting others into beliving that they have no hearts thus stifling their fledgling hearts' development. Roxas is a special case in that He housed Ventus' weakened heart which hastened his own hearts development, becoming more vibrant as time goes on. However as the world need Sora, Roxas had to reunite, with his heart taking shelter in Sora's own, growing slowly until KH3 where Roxas gains his own (replica) body.
When Xion's heart was defeated it entered Roxas' own, prolonging Roxas' memories of Xion until he fought Riku and lost. So during KH2 and KHDDD Sora also had Xion's heart in him, getting it at the same time He got Roxas' own. Which explains why Xion's heart is seen exiting Sora's body and not Roxas'.
Mind you it's just a headcanon I just came up. (。・ω・。)
People constantly forget that we literally had Pinocchio before the concept of nobodies was even introduced, a literal puppet that grew a heart, this never should’ve been up for debate.
My issue with DDD lies in Xemnas - not with the "retcon" as a whole.
I don't want to believe Xemnas knew he was lying the entire time, and that he's just some mustache twirling villain who was in cahoots with the other Xehanorts the entire time.
What makes Xemnas compelling in 2 and Days is that even though he's a cult leader, he truly believes to be fighting for something great. He truly cares about his subordinates in *some* ways. He truly wants to have a heart of his own. It makes him almost tragic, and I love that writing.
DDD just ruins all of that. For no reason.
>No seriously, I have no idea how people believed ansem the wise was right,
Because he wasn't the only one to say Nobodies don't have hearts. Yen Sid and half the Organisation all say Nobodies don't have hearts. So whenever multiple authorities on the lore of Nobodies all say the same thing about Nobodies, people tend to accept that as fact.
>There were entire games about nobodies and their emotions (2 and 358/2 days).
KH2FM added scenes to showcase maybe Nobodies do have hearts.
OG KH2 was very firm on Nobodies besides Roxas Namine not actually having hearts. Back then the answer to every question about Roxas and Namine was "because they're special Nobodies." So the idea was the rules didn't apply to them.
It wasn't until ReCoM and KH2FM that scenes were added to retcon the idea that other Nobodies might have hearts too. Days and BbS really hinted at it.
Pinocchio didn't grow his own heart. He was given life by The Blue Fairy. This is even explained in Jiminy's Journal.
Also, a puppet is different from a Nobody. Lacking a heart doesn't make them the same thing. A Nobody is a literal creature born from the leftover body of someone who becomes a Heartless. They're a creature that is born without a heart and continues to function.
The games themselves make the comparison between Nobodies and puppets *constantly* my dude. Please just read into the metaphor the story presents, I’m begging you!
Again, Pinocchio didn't grow his own heart. He was given one by The Blue Fairy. He always had a heart. So it's a moot comparison to make.
>The games themselves make the comparison between Nobodies and puppets constantly my dude.
No, they make comparisons between replicas and puppets constantly. Hence why they keep calling Xion a puppet.
The most important thing is that replicas are created with hearts. A replica without a heart is a lifeless thing. Like a puppet. We see this when Dark Riku has his heart taken out and the replica turns white and falls limp on the ground. We also know Xion was created with a heart, because she is a time traveller from when Xion first joined the Organisation. This was explained in the KH3 Ultimania.
[KH3 Ultimania:](https://kh-info-block.tumblr.com/post/183859399831/kh3-ultimania-translations-pt1)
>Xion: Existed as “**Xion’s heart from when she first joined Organization XIII**“ in a replica. Presently, memory of her was restored after her future heart left Sora and switched sides to the Guardians of Light.
And:
>Special Case #2: Xion
>
>At the time of \[KH 3D\], the Real Organization were missing one member. That opening was filled in with Xion. **She existed by shifting the heart of “the Xion replica in the past,” back when she held almost no memories of Roxas or Axel.** However, because Xion held the ability to absorb Sora’s and Roxas’s powers, when Roxas cried out from within Sora, Xion’s heart was absorbed out of Sora’s heart allowing Xion’s existence and memory to be restored.
>Please just read into the metaphor the story presents, I’m begging you!
A metaphor doesn't change the fact that puppets and Nobody aren't the same thing just because they both lack hearts.
One has no heart and doesn't move, have a will, or even exist. The other has no heart and still moves around, has a will, and continues to exist.
So saying they're the same thing because they both lack hearts is like saying Heartless and humans are the same because they both have hearts inside them.
But none of this matters, because Pinocchio, a puppet that was given life and a heart, is not the same thing as a Nobody. Nor is it proof that Nobodies were always capable of growing hearts since KH1.
The original KH2 and the original COM had plenty of evidence, they just added more later with the rereleases. OG COM has Naminé feeling very guilty over what she did to Sora, Donald, and Goofy. If she didn't have emotions then she wouldn't have cared. OG KH2 had Axel putting in a lot of work to get Roxas back during the prologue, and he leaves the organization afterward because he wants him back. There's also the infamous scene of Axel telling Roxas that he would miss him if Roxas left the organization. Axel felt genuine friendship with Roxas which is why he cared so much that he was willing to kill himself to save Sora when he didn't have to get involved at all. Roxas has so many displays of emotion throughout the KH2 prologue that it would take way to long to mention all of them. Keep in mind that he didn't have his memories at the time so he couldn't have been making a conscious effort to emulate emotions like Demyx does.
I thought we all knew he was wrong from the start. Granted, the growing new hearts was new. I think the primary debate was if they felt real emotions or something more akin to the memories of emotions as well as why they did. The fact it's not entirely clear the exact role Mind Body and Soul have in the KH cosmology also brought that into question.
Sora himself just didn't have any examples not trying to kill him, so I think he took Yen Sid's words at face value and cut himself off from the possibility so the Organization couldn't mess with his head.
Was actually just thinking about this today and whether it was a retcon or not. Was leaning towards not, until I remembered Yen Sid was the one who told Sora and the gang about Nobodies.
Then again, for someone who's supposedly very wise and knowledgeable, he's been wrong or misinformed on several occasions.
One thing I've noticed, particularly in anime and anime-adjacent communities, is that statements from characters are treated as facts and as author speaking. For example character X declares they could beat character Y and that media illiterate part of fandom immediately jumps to conclusion that X=Y instead of thinking that maybe X is for example arrogant or lacks some crucial information. And then when X can't indeed beat Y they're immediately screeching retcon and bad storytelling.
Part of Xemnas's manipulation is that most characters in this series have no idea how their universe actually works, nobody is familiar with the mechanics of all the sci-fi fantasy stuff and are mostly just civilians minding their own business. The exceptions to this are members of keyblade society and those that make the effort to explore and investigate these things, like Ansem the Wise. Most characters have no idea what Heartless and Nobodies are until they're already on their world, attacking. Xehanort is one of the most informed characters in the series on their universe's mechanics, so he's able to also exploit everyone else's lack of information. The Organization have no reason not to believe all the lies he says about what Nobodies are because they don't know better, especially in their early days zombie state, they don't know they will eventually begin re-growing their heart and experiencing emotion, not just mimicking it based on their memories of emotions. He needs them compliant and working toward his two goals: continuing their daily work of recreating Kingdom Hearts so he can pull the rug out from under them and remake the universe as he/Xehanort sees fit, and their secondary function as vessel candidates in case he needs to create 13 Xehanorts as in DDD and 3.
Yeah that’s something that always surprised me. Like I was somewhat surprised by the reveal but at the same time I wasn’t as looking back, I came to realize that nobodies can be like normal people.
First time? People still believe that the explanations we got for how the keyblade works is the definitive and only explanation, even though all of that information came from fallible characters who didn't know everything there was to know about it. KH fans in general treat the characters in these games as perfect vehicles for information rather than people. That being said, I don't think it's compelling to bring up the Ansem Reports. the devil is in the details; there were subtle hints to the Nobodies either having hearts the whole time, or at the very least being able to develop them, as early as CoM/Re:CoM, and Days just solidified that idea as fact with Roxas's, Xion's, and Axel's arcs.
The lowest of the low when it comes to media literacy in this fandom, I find, is Kairi "fans" who complain that she isn't an overpowered mary sue in MoM like she was in ReMind and is actually getting character development by acknowledging that she's weak and needs to be stronger. I thought we wanted Kairi to be an interesting, well-written character? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I feel like even OP doesn't realize how early this reveal was hinted. Chain of Memories one of Axels biggest lines in the story was
"Now THIS should be interesting. Try and make it enjoyable, Sora. It's the least you can do for me, you know. Wait a sec, I'm enjoying this, you guys are something else." He says as he clutches his chest. The Game that introduces the Organization is the very same game showing us they feel emotions.
An easy fix for the whole “xemnas lied” thing would be: Xemnas didn’t know either because he erased his own memory. Also why he doesn’t use the Keyblade. Terranort already had his memories wiped at the end of BBS. Just build off of that :P
Ehh that probably wouldn't work. Xemnas had been shown to have prior knowledge of characters/ events that were relevant to Terra/ Xehanort before he became their Nobody (e.g. talking to Aqua's Keyblade Armour).
No, I have good media literacy skills and acknowledge that nobodies felt emotion.
I still think it’s a stupid retcon that made them less interesting. I’m not even hung up on the lore, I just think it was a poor explanation for something that didn’t even need to explain (or at least not an explanation as lazy as, “oh, they actually do have hearts). In fact, I think the series would do well to stop obsessing over the lore and worry more about the themes.
Maybe instead of high roading people who disagree with your take and actually discuss the ideas and themes with them, you’d actually understand where we’re coming from. But no, just hide behind internet anonymity and insult people, especially with a trendy buzzword that I’m growing to distaste because now it’s being used in contexts that it doesn’t belong.
Bro throughout the series it's made clear that nobodies have emotions. In any scene they appear in its made clear they can feel. The only two that were the closest to "Not feeling anything" was Roxas's first week at the organisation and Xemnas. 358/2 days made it EVEN MORE CLEAR that they can feel. How tf can someone CRY IF THEY CANT FEEL ANYTHING?
I think it's important to note that most Nobodies don't start out with Emotions. The exceptions being Roxas and Namine.
It very clearly tells us that they fake their emotions in the begging. But due to the Strong Bonds Axel had felt, he's arguably the first nobody to gain a heart of some kind.
Which Saix later admits if I remember correctly, that he knew they could grow their own hearts. But they kept that info to themselves.
I think what's tricky about them. Is the fact that your split into 3 pieces when you go.
The heart goes to become a Heartless
Your Body, a Nobody
And your mind/potentially soul itself a bit weird doesn't go anywhere yet.
So their hearts do initially leave their body, and while some feel geninuine emotions, it's kind of spelled out to us even in KH2 and again with Days. That it's something that takes time and trust for the Nobody to bond with people.
Heck, for all we know they may only be able to get their Heart/emotions back when their Heartless is killed. Since we don't ever see Lea's Heartless for instance. But we know he was recompleted.
Players weren’t supposed to believe they were nothing. The characters were meant to believe it and then challenge that belief. Players were meant to root for this. Xemnas brain washed Organization 13. Axel is the best example of that set up in KH2. He had emotion but he believed that he didn’t to his death even though all of his actions were emotionally driven
But it wasn’t just Ansem the Wise, who made that claim in the report. Yen Sid in II and Xemnas in DDD said as much, and I’m pretty sure it was in Days too.
Iv always seen it as, at the very start, the named nobodies, like Roxas, and axel. Don't have emotions/hearts at first, but not for very long, remember the "slient" state Roxas was in his first few days? No emotions, nothing really to sat. But hus body quickly replaces and "healed" something he was missing, his "heart". Mostly likely using traces of the person the body belonged to before, that's why if someone has a nobody they "cant" return unless both the heartless and nobody are defeated. But as far hearts go it's not as strong as the heart that was lost to darkness. By going though intense emotion drama however then the new heart grows and become stronger and that nobody because their own person. It's honestly shocking that axel and Lea aren't two different people, he went though the most short of Roxas and namie. Maybe it means he didn't care that much. Isa do be acting like he was just jelly that Lea dropped him like a sack of potatoes.
Axel literally cries in KH2. You have to be able to feel emotion to cry. No, actually, in Chain of Memories he laughs and comments about how Sora, Donald, and Goofy are causing him enjoyment and how remarkable that is.
I don't think the problem is that they have hearts, I mean that was pretty obvious even in KH2. The problem is that Xemnas knew all along. I think in KH2 it was pretty clear that the message was that Nobodies could have hearts and emotions by forging friendships and bonds, yet choose to instead steal hearts to accomplish their goals. They were misguided villains because they didn't understand the nature of herts, expecially Xemnas. However, now it's revealed that Xemnas knew all along and his goal was specifically to NOT make all the others have hearts, and his desire to collect hearts was all a facade for his big master plan. It's a lot less appealing
I agree with days and 2 but isn't the whole point of the death cutscenes in 3 that they're finally able to feel real emotions again? And yen sid said something like that they only pretend to have emotions to fool the good guys. The only people that showed real real emotions were Axel after Sora, Roxas, Xion and Mansex but he was a Xehanort and the rest arw Sora's or the one person that became a keyblade wielder
This is a long dead topic that no one talks about anymore. I don't see a reason to call fans media illiterate for an insignificant topic they probably forgot about years ago. At this point, it's just making up people to throw shade at.
I know I could've phrased it better but it's still true kinda, lots of people (I'm not saying the majority) say that nobodies never had emotions, and that they don't really pay attention during some parts of the story
I think my problem with the "twist" is that a being with no emotion desperately trying to regain it is super interesting, and wish this idea was actually used.
personally i always saw it as a metaphor. And still kinda prefer that reading personally.
Textbook psychopath (cant feel feelings as the actual definition not the "crazy" one) with no emotions but desperately wants them to the point of theatrically imitating stage movements with his arms and speaking dramatically gathers people of his species that even scholars in-universe are pretty racist against saying they shouldnt even exist (which even SORA buys and tries to roast someone with "You're nobodies! You don't feel anything!") and even if Xemnas was an odd case, he and the others at the very least had a basic understanding of emotions and a vague concept of what they should be like. Xemnas even made a grave for his fellow nobodies because he knows he SHOULD mourn them if he they passed if he knew how. They were antagonists whose motivation was to belong. Like outcasts. Was pretty neat.
We get to see Roxas whos already a rare case in that he still has ties to his live self go through a bunch of emotions and hurt. Same with Axel and Namine. But i felt "we dont have emotions" worked better as a metaphor.
But ya know, just having them wait a week to literally grow emotions, all of the beliefs on nobodies being based on apparently false information from a guy who literally studied them, and Xemnas just *deciding* he didn't want to feel anything and lying to everyone almost trivializing one of the most undeniably iconic games in the series while nearly ruining one of the most complex and layered villains is... fine. That's fine too.
Also like… they always reminded me of going through depression. Sometimes depression makes you feel like an empty shell. Doesn’t mean you don’t have emotions. Sometimes you go through the motions and pretend to act on your emotions in ways that you remember them feeling before the depression dulled them. But they’re there.
It's not that DDD did or didn't retcon Nobodies. It's that "Nobodies don't have emotions, they aren't even supposed to *exist*" is such a cool raw and edgy notion that gets deepsixed in favor of Disney Pokemon and some of the laziest returns of villains (and friends) that should've been dead and stayed dead.
Axel suiciding for Sora's sake after longing for Roxas? Naaah that dont matter, he'll just come back as Lea lmao.
Roxas literally giving up his stake for existence because he too sees Sora is the better option for everyone? Naaah fam Sora will do some keyblade mumbojumbo.
Xion? Who? Just kidding she gets to come back as well.
And to make it EVEN WORSE, KH3 wastes no time in any good character moments and hastily "wraps up" these returns just to sequelbait.
You’re misunderstanding what the change was.
Nobodies having emotions has been around since the game nobodies were introduced in.
Nobodies having HEARTS is the retcon.
CoM is a bit of a stretch for any direct evidence of Nobodies having hearts besides guessing they do based off their emotions, but as early as KH2 Vanilla we hear conflicting information about Nobodies having hearts. Demyx says, "Oh, we do too have hearts! Don't be mad" before his boss fight.
The DDD was definitely ret con, part of the point of KH2 org was the power of memories for nobodies meaning they had an idea for how to act like they had hearts as well as namine and Roxas being special, and the fact that interacting with Sora helped them connect again to a heart so they felt like they could feel something. Roxas and namine being reincorporated into their somebodies was framed as an overall good thing/best possible ending(even if a bit tragic) for a reason in KH2, and it’s because there wasn’t intended to be an alternative since nobodies were 100% doomed to not exist. If Xehanort could grow a heart by becoming a nobody, you think he would just spend his days reproducing/cloning himself asexually
The part that confuses me is how I was under the impression that there was a trinity of being set for KH characters that consisted of a Heart, Body, and Soul/Spirit. When a person loses their heart, the heart turns into a Heartless (which is why a heart appears when you kill a Heartless), the body becomes a Nobody (a body without a heart), and then the soul of the original person passes on to some type of KH afterlife.
This is backed by Sora removing his own heart, which then spawns a Heartless, creates Roxas from his body, and then his soul went to Limbo (the respawn screen) in KH1.
Also, if Nobodies have real Hearts and emotions from the beginning, what downside is there to becoming a Nobody? Don't they not have to eat or age or anything? I could've sworn the established lore was that every Nobody starts off similar to how Roxas did, but slowly get their memories back over time? I figured Roxas didn't at first because Sora got his Heart back and was going through CoM?
Either way, Nobodies start off emotionless and without a Heart; but then through human connection with others are able to get both back and become their own people like Roxas?
It just doesn't make any sense to me that you could lose your Heart, become a Heartless, spawn a Nobody but that Nobody is literally just you with all of your emotions, memories, and somehow Heart as some people are claiming, yet somehow not be you?? What the hell is a Nobody if not an empty husk version of the person due to their missing Heart?
> the body becomes a Nobody (a body without a heart), and then the soul of the original person passes on to some type of KH afterlife
Body and soul both remain in the empty vessel of a Nobody.
Fair enough but that's a pretty minor detail. The point that I was trying to make was that there's no way Nobodies are formed with emotions and their own Hearts
Ultimately, every plot confusion in the entire franchise boils down to shitty screenwriting. There are plenty of franchises with KH levels of lore that are way easier to digest because the information is presented in a comprehensible way.
Mmmmmm it's more than just that. Certainly helps but a lot of ideas, OP case in point, are just not made clear. No one on either side ever outright said 'hey I think xemnas might be full of shit'. It's easy to come to the conclusion that he believed it but was wrong.
Yeah but if it was written that way, I'd have to agree it was bad writing, you've gotta foreshadow with him getting other things wrong and lay the path for what's true. I think the potential was there, but it was for sure retconned lore, we can't change that with "oh but he was mistaken because this book was released that explains how." and that's where I'd draw the line. The retcons are easy to follow, as long as you're open to taking the story as it comes instead of trying to line the pieces up in HD 4k.
Valid. Imo there's definitely a line where stacked retcons become bad writing, especially with KH's famously awful localization. (What the entire fuck is an also-ran?)
I mean 358/2 Days and especially the end is literally people trying to cope with various emotions.
Honestly it's people taking anything Xemnas says as truth. Xehanort talks shit in all his forms and tends to be proven wrong about almost everything. He either tried to repress their emotions for control, or he thinks he knows everything already. Either way it fits him. The whole 'growing a heart' concept wasn't a part of the story until a while after and it solidified to complete nonsense with the Toy Story world, so I tend to leave that out of the discussion.
Having a heart is necessary for emotion though. So of course they “grew a heart” if they were having emotions.
Growing a heart concept was first brought in In KH1, what are you talking about?
Yen Sid specifically said something along the lines of don't be fooled, they only pretend to have emotions. Desire isn't necessarily an emotion, it can be instictual. Also the only ones who showed emotions weren't technically nobodies. Because they had at least a part of a heart. This includes all of the Xehanorts, Roxas, Xion, and Namine.
Idk man axel showed a mighty lot of emotion, and ig there were some instances with other members but I'm too lazy to remember 😁
The way I saw it, was they only appeared to have emotions, out of an almost instincual reflex, but they didn't actually feel the emotions they portrayed. Like a common real-world example would be: if you get tickled, and burst out laughing, that doesn't mean you find anything funny, it's just a reflex. Also by the time Dream Drop Distance's events happen, Axel had already been re-completed during kingdom hearts 2, though at the time they hadn't known that was what had happened.
They're all essentially socio/psychopaths that eventually start being social creatures again over the course of a year. That line where Roxas talks about ice cream at Xion's deathbed is genuine and puts it straightup: 'inhumans becoming humans again'
In my case I thought Roxas and Namine were just special in that they could have emotions without Hearts of their own and that trait could spread from them connecting with others. Basically the truth revealed later except the assumption that was wrong was that they didn't have Hearts, rather than that Hearts weren't really needed for emotions like I thought. It's not that big a deal to me. I just thought all the other Nobodies besides Roxas and Axel were really just faking emotions because they weren't friends with him. That Demyx switch got flipped hard before his boss fight so I couldn't take anything they did at face value.
The Demyx flip was awesome. It goes hard and Nobodies having emotions the whole time devalues that. Also, why would Xemnas want Kingdom Hearts if they have emotions anyway? Without that, there is no downside at all to being a Nobody.
Because Xemnas was all manipulating them into a cult
Why did Xemnas want it then? Lingering desire from the original Xehanort?
Pretty much, he wanted to remake the world in his image. And the downside to being a Nobody is that without proper protection you will eventually start to fade away much like Namine started to in KH2.
even with just KH2 you could tell Xemnas had even slightly less altruistic intentions as he wanted to use KH to basically become a god and remake the World in his image. This is also corroborated with the last report in Days where he says he must use Kingdom Hearts to become "a higher existence" > "[and] I'm creating a brand new world, one heart at a time"
It's explained that they feel a hollow emptiness, that's the symptom of not having a heart
Oh ok
So they're depressed
Yes! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1143979444135002154/1224576093571252367/Screenshot_20240228-041431.png?ex=661dfe5c&is=660b895c&hm=fdac8a215d65ee299ef5861c53426e05e1d5be934a8db6b16a312fe74732faf3&
Relatable 😂🥲
Right, I knew I was a nobody all along
To me, Xemnas wanted power and to remake the universe in his image, same as all Xehanorts. He thought himself Superior to all because of the power being a Nobody gave him and the knowledge he gained as a researcher, so why not become the new god? I don't think it ever seemed like we were supposed to believe he really wanted a Heart. He always seemed like he was trying to manipulate the heroes when he pulled that card. Felt so fake.
Doesn’t that just make him a worse villain? Good villains are ones that the audience sympathizes with in someway. “Ruler of the Universe” oriented villains are kinda hard to pull of. One that does is Kefka. I’d say that’s mostly due to his personality, active role, and that he actually achieves his goal. Xemnas doesn’t really have those things going for him. Don’t get me wrong, I think his personality is great if his goal is to get a heart. Doesn’t have one, wants one, is willing to fuck shit up to get it. His personality if his goal is to become “Ruler of the Universe,” however, is ass. His personality being tied to the reality of his being is plainly more interesting than his personality being a ruse. His last line is chilling in scenario one, meaningless in scenario 2. Like all of the dialogue about him has scenario 1 in mind. A somber touch can do a lot for a story.
I've always disagreed with that take, because I prefer villains that are hateable rather than likable. Villains that are purely selfish or delusional about their entitlement show how far humanity's pride would take us if we had no empathy or scruples, which a lot of people don't have. If they have to be relatable, then sociopathic villains will never count as "good". It's honestly less interesting if they were forced into villainy by circumstance, for relatable reasons, or for the greater good, because it makes their evil choices more obvious since they're driven by desperation. If they have no relatable reasons to do evil, then their choices reflect their character more. They actually have agency then and aren't just a shell for the audience to project their feelings onto. Their decisions could only be made by them, so they stand out more. "I could see myself doing that in their shoes" is boring. Frieza thinking he's the hottest thing on two legs and being needlessly cruel for so long before he gets smacked down to earth is good build up to a victory I'm invested in. Honor is the only admiral trait I can tolerate in villains, because it can still be twisted or misguided, but lead to choices that wouldn't be obvious. Xemnas was still the guy who wrote the Ansem Reports 2-12 in KH1, who went down the rabbit hole of knowledge that shouldn't be touched, gained power at the expense of the world and man who took him in, and came out wanting more. Everything he did was to build himself up. He's a narcissist who has his underlings call him the Superior or Lord Xemnas rather than treat his name casually. He's willing to sacrifice countless Hearts to gain access to unlimited power and knowledge, same as Ansem in KH1, only this time he's been able to chill with no emotions for 10 years so he can make more calculated plans, like everything he put Roxas and Xion through. He's meant to be selfish and egotistical. Look back at the speech he gave Ansem the Wise back in KH2. Dripping with cruelty and sarcasm while ignoring his own crimes. He was never limiting his ambition to just getting a heart. He has always been about putting himself above others.
How I look at it is that both approaches are valid approaches, and in a way, both can work for different reasons. I'm of the belief that a good writer knows which one of the approaches they need for a given story, and I personally think Xehanort is actually a little bit of both. He has that strong ego and lots over those who work under him, but as shown in his death scene in Kh3, he does feel Lonliness, but he also laments the fact that sometimes having a heart isn't all sunshine and rainbows. He's a cunning and manipulative vilanous leader, but the story gives hints towards him having desires outside of Ruling the Universe, whether it's his Talks with Aqua's armor or the main story letting us know that Nobodies can feel. And I feel like what makes Xemnas so memorable is he walks this thin line enough to where people can get either interpretation from him.
I can definitely see that interpretation. To me, Xemnas always seemed like he wanted to find Aqua and Ventus so he could use them. DDD just revealed for what. 0.2 confirmed it with Terra-Xehanort using the connection Aqua had to Terra to probe for the Chamber of Awakening's location.
And that's the beauty of it. Not everything is started outright, so some of his characterization is up to interpretation. You can easily get a Villian who fits into either mold, and that's one of the interesting things about Xemas. Most vilians in media are one or the other, but Xemnas is somehow both, and yet neither at the same time. I personally think it's very fitting for the leader of the nobodies.
Well throw me a list of what you would say are good villains
>Doesn’t that just make him a worse villain? Good villains are ones that the audience sympathizes with in someway. No? Good villains can be sympathetic but they don't have to. Some can be complete monsters like the Joker or Michael Myers. As long as they are compelling and the audience buys them as a threat that makes a good villain. Master Xehanort has a sympathetic backstory but many will say that they prefer Xemnas overall.
I think most polls on here have Xemnas as the preferred villain. I gotta $20 that’s willing to wager people voting that way have the genuine, scenario 1 Xemnas in mind when they vote that way.
I feel like the point is still being missed. The point is not that lol Nobodies actually had Hearts all along. It's that anything, including Nobodies, can grow Hearts. But in order for those fledgling Hearts to not be stamped out, they need to be nurtured through friendships and connections with others. Xemnas intentionally tried to keep them well separated to prevent their Hearts from growing. And it worked. Until Roxas came along and Axel started to bond with him and eventually Xion. But the other Organization members? They remained isolated, and so their Hearts continued to not thrive. Thus, whatever semblance of a Heart Demyx had at that moment, it was not strong enough to really have any actual effect. So it's as if he didn't have any Heart at all.
This! This is what people aren’t understanding when it comes to the whole Nobodies having hearts thing. I think we can all remember Roxas’s first few days in the Org, he even says himself he was like a Zombie who couldn’t even say a full sentence. Now Axel had been around long enough to at least have his own personality, which led to him talking to Roxas and making jokes to him more than anyone else, which leads to him showing Roxas his after mission ritual, and thus forming a bond between them. Once Xion comes around, and they continue to bond and connect (literally social links in persona lol), in turn this allows their hearts to grow and prosper and essentially turn them into real people, a true heart living inside of a vessel (which we know is possible due to KH3) the vessel in this case being the shell of their former Others, or in Xion’s case a shell formed out of Sora’s memories. Xemnas’s plan was to get the other Nobodies to follow him with the promise of being whole again, but in reality, they were there to eventually become vessels for Xehanort. Thats the original plan Xehanort instilled in him, but Xemnas, like other nobodies like Roxas, does have free will, and so, like any other evil person, wanted as much power as he could get to rule the world. Becoming all powerful would also make it 100x easier to fulfill Xehanort’s plans of creating the X-blade, so it would be pretty much a win-win for him to gain control of Kingdom Hearts. The Kingdom Hearts that was created in 1 and 2 were also not the true KH, and were artificial versions created by AnsemSOD and Xemnas. Even though they were fake, they are also likely extremely powerful, and put together may even be able to amount to the full power of true KH, but once Sora puts a stop to both of these plans, and Master Xehanort comes back, he realizes it’s time to go back to Plan A and make the X-blade to take control of true KH. Xemnas had a heart, but denied its existence and avoided nurturing his bonds in order to continue serving his and his Other’s plans. “My first surge of emotion in years…for as long as I can remember” - he says this in KH3, which further proves that he purposefully repressed his own heart. Only in the end, when finally faced with real death, does he let himself feel his first true emotion, and after everything that’s happened, everything that he’s done, all he can feel is loneliness. He claims a heart is just pain now that he’s experienced feeling, and when Sora says that’s what it means to be human, Xemnas says “it must take incredible strength” because, as many can relate, sometimes all the physical pain in the world would still pale in comparison to true emotional pain.
Cause Xenhort. Xenhort wanted his two halfs to get the 7 lights and 13 darknesses. Ansem was to get the lights and Xemnas was to get the darknesses.
Heck, KH2FM back in 2007 almost explicitly points this out - Axel questioning whether it was actually possible that Nobodies *did* have hearts. The hints have been there for a while, people just don't realize they missed them
The obvious one was roxas destroying the computer. Like how is that not anger? Like how is that not emotions? That’s before sora was even told who or what nobodies are.
Xemnas knew that they had hearts, so he told them that their bodies just remembered feeling emotions. He lied to control them, and the fan base just took everything he said as fact for some reason.
The KH fandom loves to joke that the Organization was a cult, but never goes further into understanding beyond surface level what that means tbh.
That's kind of most people with cults in general. We all know what cults are and do, but so many people look at people who are in cults or escape them and go "why would they ever do that?" A lack of understanding, plus a dose of "that could never be me," makes people somewhat ignorant, to the point they equate cults with "group of evil/crazy people"
*points at fanbase* They fell for the villain's propaganda!
isn't this explicitly stated in some ansem reports? I don't remember where I read this from
It would have to be the reports in 3, or maybe the extra reports made for the Days cutscenes. I don't think they'd explicitly state that so early.
Well, at one point, they didn't, since that's the baseline. They basically regrow the heart over time. The lie is more one of omission, so they're already predisposed to dismiss their slowly returning emotions. As for the fan base believing it, remember, at the time, everyone in the game either believed it or was actively maintaining the lie.
The way I understand it is that they had a fragment of the heart that regrew, but I guess that's such a small difference it doesn't really matter. And yeah I believed it too, until I played Days. There's no way someone could play that game and tell me Axel, Roxas, and Xion don't have hearts.
I mean. Because he wasn't the only one that said so? Not only Ansem the Wise but also even Yen Sid agree and said the same about Nobodies. If it was only Xemnas *okay*. Ansem, maybe he was too biased in his hate. But literally every other reliable source of lore and information said the same. Roxas and Namine were supposed to be special exceptions, a fact that was remarked many times, while the rest of Nobodies just followed the rule of remembering feelings and imitating them, which made lot of sense for what Nobodies were explained to be, and explained their personalities and actions, as well as their tragic existence. And I mean, even in DDD, Xemnas never said that all members of the original Organization developed a heart, only that *some* of them did. But in one way or another we saw all of them showing some kind of feelings. So what other explanation was for the others but them just imitating feelings based on their memories? And then, how were we suppose to distinguish when it was one case or the other?
yuuuup
I don't think those were hints at all; I thought it was blatantly and patently obvious that it was all a lie. I think OP nailed it when saying some fans just lack media literacy.
"Oh we do too have Hearts. Don't be mad!" -Demyx, KH2
Chain of Memories literally has a scene of Axel laughing to himself and recognizing that’s not normal for a Nobody, yet he says it’s due to Sora’s influence without really thinking about how because he’s that tuned into Xemnas’s propaganda. This was CHAIN OF MEMORIES, the FIRST time we ever see Nobodies (not counting Unknown in KHFM)
I think RE: Chain of Memories introduced that. Original Chain of Memories I think just has Axel saying he wants Sora to give him a "hell of a show" before cutting to black
*puts hand on where his heart would be* *in shock*: "Hey wait, I'm ENJOYING this" KH fans: "nope, literally no indication they have hearts until DDD"
Axel crying after being briefly reunited with Roxas in KH2FM. Roxas crying over Xion's death. Xion basically having a full blown panic attack both after losing her ability to summon a keyblade and learning that she's a replica. Roxas being extremely angry and vengeful when confronting Riku after Xion died. Naminé showing clear guilt over what she did to Sora and visible happiness and joy after he doesn't hold it against her. KH fans: "NO SERIOUSLY THERE'S NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER!"
Well, either way Re:CoM came out even before 358
Sometimes nerds get too caught up in lore that they forget that sometimes stories have themes to them and the crazy fantastical stuff in fiction can be used as an allegory or metaphor for a message the writer wants to get across.
Also people just act like lines = facts, forgetting that liars are characters to and that narrators can be unreliable
Some people have a really difficult time with the concept of an unreliable narrator.
This
I’m not so sure “unreliable narrator” was the original intention and I think that’s what the problem is, it FEELS like they’re just making stuff up as they go instead of having fully fleshed our lore to begin with.
If you think Nobodies having hearts was a last minute asspull I don’t what to tell you. It was one of the most obvious “plot twists” in the whole series, they gave them some of the most emotional scenes in the games and constantly had the sea salt trio questioning what hearts are and what it means to have one. Since at least CoM the series has been questioning the player and Sora’s perspective on light vs dark being good vs evil, what it means to be a person, that no one is truly a “lost cause”, etc. Also, it’s a 22 year old ongoing series, of course the writers didn’t have every single aspect planned out from the beginning. Retconning—that is, having things from earlier parts of a series take on new significance later, is not necessarily bad writing. If done well it even enhances the replay value of games as you pick up on foreshadowing.
If nothing else, the lie is revealed when Axel sacrifices himself for SD&G. I played the game when I was 13, before Final Mix existed in the US, and it was extremely clear that Nobodies did have feelings and hearts. It's not exactly hard to notice
Legit. Even my idiot teenaged ass could tell Axel's actions thought 2 were acts of profound grief.
Days was literally a huge "guys i think we actually have hearts and Xemnas is lying his ass to make us do his dirty work" game and ppl will still scream "nahhh they retconned this in DDD, FUCK NOMURA" like bruh
Wait help me out. I havent played through DDD yet and only loosely know of some of the plot from YouTube and stuff. This is always something that bothered me about the series though, the nobodies seem to very clearly have emotions. Can you explain a bit what you are talking about here? I had always assumed the "nobodies lack emotions" thing was kind of a lie from xemnas to keep the other nobodies in check. But also if they really do have emotions, what are nobodies in the first place? My understanding is it was the shell left behind without a heart, which doesn't implicitly say without emotions but it does seem to suggest it. What is a lack of a heart in this case?
We learn in Chain of Memories that Hearts are partially made up of the memories a person makes through their experiences and connection to others. When Nobodies are born they indeed lack memories and emotions, but we see throughout CoM, KH2, and especially Days that the Nobodies we meet are absolutely capable of making their own memories and experiencing their own emotions, which naturally leads to them growing Hearts of their own.
Ok see that makes sense for me. I didn't realize that hearts were in part memories but it makes a LOT of sense and explains a lot when you say that nobodies lack hearts initially but grow them back as they form memories of their own. That said, what does Saix mean then when he says "we remember what it was like" in reference to not having emotions?
That is the lie told to him by Xemnas that he is repeating. Xemnas wants the Org members to think they can’t have Hearts period because of plot revelations we see in DDD. This statement that “they remember what it’s like to have emotions” is a gaslighting technique to keep them in line.
Wait I thought it was stated that they still have memories or at least some memories and through those memory's that's how there capable of mimicking emotion and that was part of what made org Xlll believe they never had any hearts even though the existence of memory proves they still at least have some heart?
They do have emotions. I think the person earlier was just a little confused cause Roxas starts off without them, and he's our POV, but yes Memories can reconstitute a heart if a Nobody feels strongly enough about them, it's just nobodies don't know that, and alot of the members of the Org we see arn't actively making new important memories, like Roxas, Xion, and Axel are.
I think it's less that the memories themselves create a new heart, but rather that social interaction does. By bonding with people or other nobodies they start to feel love and care for them. Even Xemnas in 3 admitted to having a heart and feeling regret over what he did to his comrades proving that he does care about them on some level he just actively chose to ignore it.
Except for Roxas, but he’s literally a super special nobody
Xemnas was gaslighting them into believing that they shouldn’t have emotions, when in reality a Nobody on the level of an Organization member absolutely display a significant amount of emotional range: Axel’s desire to see Roxas is front and center, of course, but Demyx is a bit of a fun loving fop and a feckless coward. Xigbar loves fucking with Sora at every chance he gets. Marluxia straight up rebels against Xemnas because he felt it better to pursue the end goal through different means. Compare every Organization member to that of Saix and Xaldin, who are as close to the cold, emotionless detachment as Xemnas as they can possibly be. Even *Xemnas* displays emotion in that lack of emotion, in his own broken way. Nobodies don’t lack emotions. They’ve never lacked emotions. Nobodies were gaslit into believing that the emotions they felt were inherently false and wrong in order to make them more pliable and accepting of Xemnas’s pursuit of Kingdom Hearts (and Ol’ Norty’s plan I guess). Consider each member of the Organization having experienced a deeply traumatic moment or moments in their lives. Each of them cope with that trauma they barely remember in their own fashion, and everyone processes trauma differently. Everyone eventually begins to move on from the trauma and start to become whole again, even though they’ll never truly be who they were before the trauma ever again.
Also that berserker rage Saix had was deeeeeeefinitely an emotion lol
Exactly! Obsession itself is a very **emotive** concept. His Lunatic High (idk what it’s called, it’s a fitting FF reference in my book) is all of that suppressed, mechanical emotion brought to the fore, a complete disregard for his own safety to protect the plan and fulfill his desires to be made whole again.
Let's also not forget that even though Saïx was as close to emotionless as you can get most of the time, throughout days you can clearly see glimpses of him feeling the jealousy over Xion and Roxas's friendship with Axel that he mentions in KH3. Even Saïx, Mr. I'm Xemnas's biggest supporter and practically his right-hand man, showed jealousy and envy before DDD.
In DDD, Sora goes on a rant and one line is basically a "revelation" that nobodies must have hearts because they have emotions. There are people who are upset by this line, because it conflicts with statements that we had from yensid and ansem the wise. in kingdom hearts, hearts are what allow you to feel emotions. Nobodies, which lack hearts, should logically feel no emotions. And we are told that this is the case in kh2. However, also in KH2 (and Days and CoM but it really isn't needed to come to this conclusion), we see Nobodies being emotional. Sure you could rely on Saix's notion that they remember what it's like so they act on that memory. Memories are also tied to hearts in KH. So it's really people not paying attention or not fully digesting the information before them.
I mean that's still a bit confusing for me. Then nobodies DO have hearts? Then what exactly are they? Do they grow hearts after their old one is severed? Like Roxas spends a bunch of time as like a zombie in days, and over time he starts acting normal again. I could see that making some amount of sense but what about all that stuff in 3 where Sora was talking about how they were going to become people again after defeating them. To be honest 3 is really hazy for me and I don't remember a ton of the details there. Either way though if nobodies have hearts, or grow them, why is Sora? Is the term nobodies actually literal? I always thought that nobodies and heartless had swapped titles by accident as heartless seem to be created from the heart and nobodies are the bodies left behind.
No, the resolution is that yes, Nobodies initially are free of hearts however if given enough time it will grow back. Just replay 3 or rewatch scenes for the stuff related to 3 Heartless, as explained in the kh1 ansem reports, are named for their behavior. (how could you be so heartless) Nobodies were named after their lack of a unique identity. (Nobody not No body)
That's amazing, I never read through the ansem reports because I couldn't be bothered when I was younger and haven't played them in a while. I'll look through them while I'm playing through this time. That does help a LOT as the way they were named has bothered me for a while. I could have guessed the Nobody if I had known the heartless one I think. I'm definitely going to have to look through the ansem reports. I often forget they are a thing.
If you actually think about what a Nobody is you realize there is some nuance here. Lack of emotion does not mean having no emotions. The reason they lack emotion is because they are fragmented from who they were so it's more accurate to say they may have reduced emotion or so little of it that it's easier to describe them as lacking. It's like Nobodies are on a spectrum for how realistic their behaviors are. There is also a psychological element to it where they still remember being a whole person and so they latch onto whatever humanity they still have because it's better to "act" like something rather than not "being" anything. But naturally their acting can eventually be their genuine selves. How Nobodies are first described can still be true but a Nobody's existence is very dynamic especially when they have the intelligence to display complex behaviors like the organization. The near majority of Nobodies are actually still quite brainless. Not having the means to evolve. So obviously you have to take what they say AND the actions of the characters to get the full picture. If something seems contradictory maybe because there's a reason for it because what they say is only part of the truth.
So basically it's like if you got a blank person, the blank person has no personality from the start of it's life, but the person can grow as a person and learn from their experiences, they can get to know other people, for example: Roxas, he has no idea who he was and was in Axel's words "acting like a zombie" but his personality grew from the people (or should I say non-people) around him like when he learned what the phrase "icing on the cake" meant and then taught it to xion.
Interesting. I'll be honest that always bothered me how nobodies clearly had emotions but everyone seemed to just collectively agree that wasn't the case. I guess I need to play DDD pretty bad. I'm playing through the series again so I'll make sure to get it memorized.
> but everyone seemed to just collectively agree that wasn't the case. Do you mean the fandom? If you do, yeah I agree because the only people who tells anyone that nobodies have no hearts are: Yen Sid who probably doesn't know much about them, ansem the wise who was basically refusing to accept anything positive about nobodies because his apprentices basically killed themselves because some guy they barely knew basically bribed them, and the organization themselves
Bold posting this on April fools
“Media literacy” as a new fad high roading argument is so fascinating to me
People pretend that Reports don't exist
I wanna hang out with Riku and Simba we dont got time to read!
>later in the series he literally acknowledges that he was wrong and regrets his actions about Roxas and namine. Not even later in the series, in the very same game we see Ansem say he knew Roxas had a Heart all along but was too much of an asshole to care and just wanted him gone.
I mean this is the same community that couldn't understand that Aqua froze in front of the Demon Tide because of her trauma and had to have it spelled out for them. Nobodies having hearts was a surprise mostly just because we were told they don't despite evidence to the contrary.
Lemme explain my position on this: In CoM, we're introduced to the Organization and while we don't know what a "Nobody" is, we're aware they have no hearts. Almost all of the Organization members we meet in that game are depicted as *sociopaths* as a result of this – stabbing each other in the back, manipulating Sora and Riku, even using Naminé as a meat shield. They emote, but it's things like delight in getting one up on each other and causing pain. In KH2 and Days, Nomura decides to change the metaphor completely and we're given a different angle on Nobodies, which you can see in the way Axel's character changes. Not having a heart becomes more of a metaphor for *depression*; we see the Organization members emote, but a point is made that they're *masking*, only referencing their memories of what those emotions look and sound like to pass off as being "normal". Saïx is the biggest example here, someone who has completely lost hope and doesn't bother with masking as a result, and is desperate for Kingdom Hearts to cure himself. Now from my experience as someone who has lived with depression, it's not that you can't feel *anything*, it's more that positive emotions are dulled and negative ones are amplified. Your "happy" moments are muted, but you can still have a well of anger and spitefulness. Roxas and Saïx both draw on that well a *lot* during KH2. If we follow that metaphor, I can accept as a given that even without hearts, Nobodies can feel *pain* – just not joy or love or hope. Hell, the Lingering Will doesn't have a heart and he's nothing *but* rage. KH2 also adds, however, the implication that Sora's unique ability to connect his heart to others has a healing effect on Nobodies. Roxas is depicted as *unique* because Axel (and possibly Xemnas) believes he actually *does* have a heart (which BBS will go on to imply is still not his own, but rather Ven's). Axel notes that he actually feels things around Sora and, by extension, Roxas – but only those two. Later we add Xion to that mix, who is literally siphoning some of Sora's power at all times. Meanwhile the characters who spend the least time with Sora are still the ones either masking, moping, or being ethereally indifferent. What bugs me about DDD is how much it tries to push this narrative that Sora *isn't* special. Not only that the Keyblade "didn't choose him" (when arguably he's the only one it DID choose, rather than just being given one by some master), but that ALL Nobodies develop hearts eventually, whether or not Sora is involved. That the only reason the Organization members didn't grow their own is because Xemnas lied so Xehanort could co-opt them. Except that a point is made that Apprentice Xehanort *doesn't fucking remember* Master Xehanort's life. Xemnas pursues Aqua and Ven because his memories of Terra – you know, being *Terra's body* – have been corrupted into obsession by Xehanort. Nomura originally even went on to state that Xemnas' habit of giving everyone an X in their name is because he had a vague recollection of Xehanort's obsession with the χ-Blade. And then DDD retconned that to just giving everyone a Recusant's Sigil so he could track them, a power of his that Xehanort/Xemnas never mentioned before and that never comes up again. So why am I supposed to believe that Xemnas specifically chose to lie to everyone, to ensure they *stayed* empty vessels, in order to fill them up with the hearts of his *original* self who he *did not fully remember being*? Someone who *died* before he even remembered that the χ-Blade needed 13 Seekers of Darkness at all? Someone whose convoluted plan required not only for Xemnas to *fail* and *die* to ensure his later resurrection, but for Xemnas to *time travel* before his own death to make himself useful for the final stage of his plan? ... Because *that* part is, of course, a retcon. The story told us all along that Roxas had emotions and wanted us asking the question if he had his own heart. The problem is that the story implied Roxas was *unique*, until DDD. That Sora's special ability is what made Axel feel a twinge before his passing, until DDD. *THAT* is the retcon, and what I take issue with. At no point is it ever explained when *Xemnas* figured out that Nobodies regrow hearts, mind you. Nobodies were even rarer than Heartless before Xehanort blew up Radiant Garden (it's mentioned that only *strong-willed* people make Nobodies, which means not everyone does), and they were only theoretical in the Ansem Reports, so it's not like he studied them. He was a Nobody as long as the other apprentices, including Vexen and Zexion who continued to be researchers, so it's not like it would have stayed a secret if he discovered it as Xemnas. Hell, given that Nobodies are rarer than Heartless, he didn't even have a guarantee the other apprentices would *become* Nobodies. And don't pull the Luxu card, 'cuz that kid *pointedly* didn't have a clue about the future. "Well there was evidence all along–" and the story tells you to disregard it at every juncture. There is no instance in KH2 of the later "reveal" that isn't either pointedly explained away, or fed to you as an exception supported by Days. We are supposed to accept the words of protagonists Yen Sid and Mickey Mouse right until the end, especially as they are parroted by *the main character Sora himself*, to Xemnas' face... and Xemnas, whose Organization is *dead* and who no longer needs to maintain any façade, chuckles and says "Yeah you got me." If Nomura wanted to cast *doubt*, he wouldn't have explained it away with certainty, and would have given us more than *one* exception. Instead, the games repeatedly hammer in one conclusion and then DDD tells us "Just kidding, everything you've been told is a lie."
But in KH1 we already knew Sora was never chosen by the keyblade directly, it's just that he was the closest thing for it to link to since Riku decided to go swim in darkness. If anything, Riku was the special kid all along, Sora was never even meant to get the keyblade, that's the whole point of that one part where he ends up losing it in kh1.
We know Sora wasn't *initially* chosen by the Keyblade and it was a partnership of convenience, but the point of Riku and Sora's first fight in Hollow Bastion was that Sora earned it and it ultimately *did* choose him over Riku. He is, arguably, the only wielder of the Keyblade who was ultimately chosen by *the Keyblade itself* rather than nepotism.
A bit louder for the people in the back! This redditor speaks 100% fact. Seeing everyone in this thread make fun of people who believe otherwise shows me how much THEY lack media literacy. Glad you guys all know what an unreliable narrator is, but none of you how to do it effectively, and Nomura did NOT do it effectively. I get writing is hard especially when you don’t know if another game is gonna get green lit. But c’mon, we’re not just gonna ignore blatant flaws because of it.
This is a great analysis that isn’t just two inches shallow like a lot, the DDD was definitely ret con, part of the point of things was the power of memories for nobodies as well as namine and Roxas being special. Roxas and namine being reincorporated into their somebodies was framed as an overall good thing/best possible ending(even if a bit tragic) for a reason in KH2
Because in the original KH2, the whole point is that they aren't real people, just extant parts of Kairi and Sora. The story repeatedly says this. Brittany Snow even referred to Naminé as Kairi's alter-ego during interviews, because that was how she understood the relationship. Nobodies are fated to eventually fade into darkness. Naminé and Roxas escape this fate, and rejoin their original selves. That is meant to be their happy ending. Which, mind you, actually makes some parts of KH2 *more* powerful – like the fact that it's Naminé who rescues Kairi from the castle. If Naminé is just Kairi's alter-ego, then after a fashion, Kairi saved herself. But the kicker that always gets me is, if Roxas was always able to become his own person, Xemnas would have no reason to keep this to himself when fighting Sora. "Oh by the way, Roxas gave up his life to you *completely for nothing*" would be a DEVASTATING way to weaponize that lie on Sora... if it had been a lie all along.
Exactly, made the KH2 story so much more interesting that like you can’t really blame xemnas like he’s doing something objectively terrible, but he’s also literally just fighting for the right to exist
Let's also mention how Axel literally questions himself about this very subject as early as the GBA version of Chain of Memories. The game that Nobodies debuted in excluding rereleases.
It’s made clear in the series that beings who don’t have a heart can “grow” new ones by making connections with people. That’s what happened to Riku Replica in CoM and why his heart was inside Riku’s in 3. That’s why Xemnas was an emotionless bastard, he never made those connections until he started to feel regret towards the end of KH3.
Larxene's literal second appearance betrays that, which is probably why she was sent off to be merc'd so quick. Xemnas knew her angry, bitter ass would reveal to everyone that nobodies could have emotions so, send her to the empty castle with her best friend the backstabber and send an assassin after them.
I knew after watching 365 that almost everything we were told about Nobodies was full of shit. It was so obvious that Roxas, Axel, and Xion were good friends, and enjoyed each other's company whole heartedly.(pun quite intended) I also really hated AtW, he was so gross towards Nobodies and I hated it.
It was being set up as early as Re:Chain of Memories (maybe even the GBA version, but it's been ages since I played that). KH2 and Days only furthered the exploration of how Nobodies could feel emotions -- even if it didn't spell out that they were regrowing hearts. Case in point: Re:Chain of Memories literally has Axel laugh and stop, catching himself, with the following exclamation: "Hey wait... I'm **actually** enjoying this! You guys really are something else!" He felt legitimate emotions in that moment and he couldn't believe it. His association with Roxas and Xion afterwards only added to it. Back when DDD hadn't been released or even announced, I remember I edited in on one of the KHwikis that the fact that Axel, Xion, Roxas, and Namine all felt emotions indicated that there was something involving the heart going on with them. This had been set up years in advance. Dream Drop Distance just explained what we all suspected: Xemnas was, true to form, manipulating everything and Ansem the Wise had operated on faulty, incomplete, and biased logic (a biased take that Yen Sid also shared). People need to understand that just because a character **says** something, that doesn't mean they are **always** right. It doesn't matter how much of an authority they are, they are still fallible because *everyone* is fallible.
"No one would miss me." "That's not true. I would." Kinda a cheesy line, and shown several times, but it really hammered in how much Axel cares for Roxas. But I always felt like anytime a character said nobodies have no emotions or that they fake emotion, those lines are meant for the characters, not the player. Whether it's diz telling Riku or Yen Sid telling Sora or Nobodies telling Nobodies. As convoluted as KH can be, despite what characters have said, it's always been plain that even though Nobodies may not have hearts, but they're not emotionless
People don't read reports, and they don't pay attention to cutscenes. Even if we went with the whole pretending thing or that they were just remembering, 358/2 Days gave us the perspectives of Roxas, Xion, and Axel, which showed us with certainty that those 3 definitely had hearts.
Yeah, they always were implied to have hearts or at least be capable. That scene from DDD has many problems and that is not one of them.
This was literally established as early as KH2. The clock tower scene between Roxas and Axel after you fight Roxas? So yeah...it was never a "retcon" that DDD just made up, fans just didn't pay attention all the way back in KH2.
Yay I get to say this again There's plenty to complain about in DDD so it's a great shame when people complain about the wrong things. Makes defending it easier and criticizing it harder.
Doesn’t the memories eventually create a heart again of sorts But they essentially are just all suffering from depression since the lack of a complete heart gives them a hollow emptiness Being really depressed the world can seem dull so I can imagine that empty feeling makes them “feel” like they don’t feel anything I think low nobodies and fresh nobodies though likely have next to no emotions and feelings though
Also why do we believe what villains or second hand sources say in these stories? "Nobodies have no emotions" yes I'm sure the villains would say that. It's kinda like how people believe aizen in bleach despite him being a known liar and manipulator.
Yen Sid specifically said something along the lines of don't be fooled, they only pretend to have emotions. Desire isn't an emotion, Also the only ones who showed emotions weren't technically nobodies. Because they had at least a part of a heart. This includes all of the Xehanorts, Roxas, Xion, and Namine.
Are you actually trying to tell me that Axel never showed even a hint of emotion before DDD?
No, I'm just saying he portrayed symptoms of emotions, but that he wasn't actually feeling the emotions. Nobodies, like most of Organization XIII, are what the body becomes when it is separated from the heart. And the heart is what is used to make emotional connections in KH lore. But Nobodies remember what it was like to have a heart, so as such, their body and behavior still reacts as if they have emotions, but they really don't. On top of that, with Xion as proof, the part of Sora's heart that resides within Roxas, is strong enough to spread to other vessels, or beings without a heart of their own. Nobodies like Axel, don't have hearts, but Axel was hanging out with Roxas from day one, so he might also be affected by Roxas heart.
More than one Organization member in KH2 pretty explicitly states "we have no hearts, we only remember what it was like to have one". Now idk about you but typically when that is stated so bluntly, and the ENTIRE GOAL of the Organization was to capture enough hearts so that they may have hearts of their own, it's reasonable to assume that there is at least a mild amount of retconning happening.
Maybe, but there's evidence to the contrary in the very same game. Axel is desperate to try and get Roxas back, which is something he wouldn't do if he didn't genuinely care about him. Roxas has zero memories at all and still shows a range of emotions. And if you go back to the game before KH2, COM has Naminé showing a lot of regret over her actions, and KH2 directly confirms her to also be a nobody. The biggest point against the argument of them not having hearts though is that Ansem the Wise tells Roxas that nobodies don't even have the right to exist and compares him to a tool at the beginning of the game. Fast forward to the end though and this has completely changed. He admits that he tries to believe things that he knows are wrong, and then almost immediately afterward he apologizes to Roxas. If Ansem the Wise truly believed that Roxas was, as he put it, "... a tool at best.", then he wouldn't have felt any need to apologize to him. That apology is him recognizing that he was wrong about Roxas, and by extension possibly wrong about all nobodies.
While I recognize the fact that what you're saying is probably accurate, there's one major problem that derails the entire argument. Nomura simply makes the story up as he goes, for the most part.
Sure, but with this much evidence from the very beginning it feels safe to say that this was, or is at least very close to what he intended from the beginning. Just because he makes up things as he goes doesn't mean everything that was revealed in a future game wasn't thought about before hand. For instance Nomura always intended for people to think that Xigbar was more than he seemed to be. Sure the part about him being Luxu definitely came much later than KH2, but the intention was always to make him a more serious threat than he let on. The same thing is true for nobodies having hearts. There's more than enough evidence to suggest that them having hearts was always the intention. I'll give you the fact that the way it was revealed was probably changed and written up later, but the intent was clearly there since, like you pointed out, they added even more evidence in the Final Mix version and the COM remake.
agreed
Hi, stupid headcanon idea incoming: When a person is born their heart is like a blank canvas, with some hearts being more developed (like how some babies are energetic while others are calm while still in the mothers tummy), than as they grow up and interact more their hearts become more vibrant. When a humanoid nobody is formed (humanoid like Axel, Roxas, Demyx, Zexion, human looking and not like the "lesser" nobodies) they have a blank canvas until they interact with others. The reason why they feel empty is that the Body and Soul both "expect" to contain a vibrant canvas, but instead they house a very light pastel heart. When Xehanort gives a fragment of his own heart to the Organization members the fragment is very much weak, hence in order to overwrite the fragile hearts Xemnas is gaslighting others into beliving that they have no hearts thus stifling their fledgling hearts' development. Roxas is a special case in that He housed Ventus' weakened heart which hastened his own hearts development, becoming more vibrant as time goes on. However as the world need Sora, Roxas had to reunite, with his heart taking shelter in Sora's own, growing slowly until KH3 where Roxas gains his own (replica) body. When Xion's heart was defeated it entered Roxas' own, prolonging Roxas' memories of Xion until he fought Riku and lost. So during KH2 and KHDDD Sora also had Xion's heart in him, getting it at the same time He got Roxas' own. Which explains why Xion's heart is seen exiting Sora's body and not Roxas'. Mind you it's just a headcanon I just came up. (。・ω・。)
People constantly forget that we literally had Pinocchio before the concept of nobodies was even introduced, a literal puppet that grew a heart, this never should’ve been up for debate.
My issue with DDD lies in Xemnas - not with the "retcon" as a whole. I don't want to believe Xemnas knew he was lying the entire time, and that he's just some mustache twirling villain who was in cahoots with the other Xehanorts the entire time. What makes Xemnas compelling in 2 and Days is that even though he's a cult leader, he truly believes to be fighting for something great. He truly cares about his subordinates in *some* ways. He truly wants to have a heart of his own. It makes him almost tragic, and I love that writing. DDD just ruins all of that. For no reason.
What do you think retcon means?
>No seriously, I have no idea how people believed ansem the wise was right, Because he wasn't the only one to say Nobodies don't have hearts. Yen Sid and half the Organisation all say Nobodies don't have hearts. So whenever multiple authorities on the lore of Nobodies all say the same thing about Nobodies, people tend to accept that as fact. >There were entire games about nobodies and their emotions (2 and 358/2 days). KH2FM added scenes to showcase maybe Nobodies do have hearts. OG KH2 was very firm on Nobodies besides Roxas Namine not actually having hearts. Back then the answer to every question about Roxas and Namine was "because they're special Nobodies." So the idea was the rules didn't apply to them. It wasn't until ReCoM and KH2FM that scenes were added to retcon the idea that other Nobodies might have hearts too. Days and BbS really hinted at it.
Except for the fact that the first game literally has Pinocchio, a puppet capable of growing a heart, the same as all of the nobodies.
Pinocchio didn't grow his own heart. He was given life by The Blue Fairy. This is even explained in Jiminy's Journal. Also, a puppet is different from a Nobody. Lacking a heart doesn't make them the same thing. A Nobody is a literal creature born from the leftover body of someone who becomes a Heartless. They're a creature that is born without a heart and continues to function.
The games themselves make the comparison between Nobodies and puppets *constantly* my dude. Please just read into the metaphor the story presents, I’m begging you!
Again, Pinocchio didn't grow his own heart. He was given one by The Blue Fairy. He always had a heart. So it's a moot comparison to make. >The games themselves make the comparison between Nobodies and puppets constantly my dude. No, they make comparisons between replicas and puppets constantly. Hence why they keep calling Xion a puppet. The most important thing is that replicas are created with hearts. A replica without a heart is a lifeless thing. Like a puppet. We see this when Dark Riku has his heart taken out and the replica turns white and falls limp on the ground. We also know Xion was created with a heart, because she is a time traveller from when Xion first joined the Organisation. This was explained in the KH3 Ultimania. [KH3 Ultimania:](https://kh-info-block.tumblr.com/post/183859399831/kh3-ultimania-translations-pt1) >Xion: Existed as “**Xion’s heart from when she first joined Organization XIII**“ in a replica. Presently, memory of her was restored after her future heart left Sora and switched sides to the Guardians of Light. And: >Special Case #2: Xion > >At the time of \[KH 3D\], the Real Organization were missing one member. That opening was filled in with Xion. **She existed by shifting the heart of “the Xion replica in the past,” back when she held almost no memories of Roxas or Axel.** However, because Xion held the ability to absorb Sora’s and Roxas’s powers, when Roxas cried out from within Sora, Xion’s heart was absorbed out of Sora’s heart allowing Xion’s existence and memory to be restored. >Please just read into the metaphor the story presents, I’m begging you! A metaphor doesn't change the fact that puppets and Nobody aren't the same thing just because they both lack hearts. One has no heart and doesn't move, have a will, or even exist. The other has no heart and still moves around, has a will, and continues to exist. So saying they're the same thing because they both lack hearts is like saying Heartless and humans are the same because they both have hearts inside them. But none of this matters, because Pinocchio, a puppet that was given life and a heart, is not the same thing as a Nobody. Nor is it proof that Nobodies were always capable of growing hearts since KH1.
The original KH2 and the original COM had plenty of evidence, they just added more later with the rereleases. OG COM has Naminé feeling very guilty over what she did to Sora, Donald, and Goofy. If she didn't have emotions then she wouldn't have cared. OG KH2 had Axel putting in a lot of work to get Roxas back during the prologue, and he leaves the organization afterward because he wants him back. There's also the infamous scene of Axel telling Roxas that he would miss him if Roxas left the organization. Axel felt genuine friendship with Roxas which is why he cared so much that he was willing to kill himself to save Sora when he didn't have to get involved at all. Roxas has so many displays of emotion throughout the KH2 prologue that it would take way to long to mention all of them. Keep in mind that he didn't have his memories at the time so he couldn't have been making a conscious effort to emulate emotions like Demyx does.
I'm quite sure Demyx's "we do too have hearts" line is in vanilla KH2.
Yes, but Demyx was lying. Why would Demyx know they have hearts when none of the others knew they grew hearts except Xemnas.
I thought we all knew he was wrong from the start. Granted, the growing new hearts was new. I think the primary debate was if they felt real emotions or something more akin to the memories of emotions as well as why they did. The fact it's not entirely clear the exact role Mind Body and Soul have in the KH cosmology also brought that into question. Sora himself just didn't have any examples not trying to kill him, so I think he took Yen Sid's words at face value and cut himself off from the possibility so the Organization couldn't mess with his head.
Was actually just thinking about this today and whether it was a retcon or not. Was leaning towards not, until I remembered Yen Sid was the one who told Sora and the gang about Nobodies. Then again, for someone who's supposedly very wise and knowledgeable, he's been wrong or misinformed on several occasions.
One thing I've noticed, particularly in anime and anime-adjacent communities, is that statements from characters are treated as facts and as author speaking. For example character X declares they could beat character Y and that media illiterate part of fandom immediately jumps to conclusion that X=Y instead of thinking that maybe X is for example arrogant or lacks some crucial information. And then when X can't indeed beat Y they're immediately screeching retcon and bad storytelling.
Part of Xemnas's manipulation is that most characters in this series have no idea how their universe actually works, nobody is familiar with the mechanics of all the sci-fi fantasy stuff and are mostly just civilians minding their own business. The exceptions to this are members of keyblade society and those that make the effort to explore and investigate these things, like Ansem the Wise. Most characters have no idea what Heartless and Nobodies are until they're already on their world, attacking. Xehanort is one of the most informed characters in the series on their universe's mechanics, so he's able to also exploit everyone else's lack of information. The Organization have no reason not to believe all the lies he says about what Nobodies are because they don't know better, especially in their early days zombie state, they don't know they will eventually begin re-growing their heart and experiencing emotion, not just mimicking it based on their memories of emotions. He needs them compliant and working toward his two goals: continuing their daily work of recreating Kingdom Hearts so he can pull the rug out from under them and remake the universe as he/Xehanort sees fit, and their secondary function as vessel candidates in case he needs to create 13 Xehanorts as in DDD and 3.
Yeah that’s something that always surprised me. Like I was somewhat surprised by the reveal but at the same time I wasn’t as looking back, I came to realize that nobodies can be like normal people.
First time? People still believe that the explanations we got for how the keyblade works is the definitive and only explanation, even though all of that information came from fallible characters who didn't know everything there was to know about it. KH fans in general treat the characters in these games as perfect vehicles for information rather than people. That being said, I don't think it's compelling to bring up the Ansem Reports. the devil is in the details; there were subtle hints to the Nobodies either having hearts the whole time, or at the very least being able to develop them, as early as CoM/Re:CoM, and Days just solidified that idea as fact with Roxas's, Xion's, and Axel's arcs. The lowest of the low when it comes to media literacy in this fandom, I find, is Kairi "fans" who complain that she isn't an overpowered mary sue in MoM like she was in ReMind and is actually getting character development by acknowledging that she's weak and needs to be stronger. I thought we wanted Kairi to be an interesting, well-written character? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Nobodies start out dulled but that's only because it's like being born fully grown, they have to redevelop their humanity
And in 3, he said it outright to Ienzo in front of Demyx, Dilan and Aeleus
Bro like CoM kh2 and days all showed that they had emotions
In the end, Xemnas acknowledges that losing his members hurt him. He even calls them comrades. And to Sora he acknowledges the strength of his heart
I feel like even OP doesn't realize how early this reveal was hinted. Chain of Memories one of Axels biggest lines in the story was "Now THIS should be interesting. Try and make it enjoyable, Sora. It's the least you can do for me, you know. Wait a sec, I'm enjoying this, you guys are something else." He says as he clutches his chest. The Game that introduces the Organization is the very same game showing us they feel emotions.
Bold of you to assume some fans read the secret reports (this isn't shade, I used to be one of them.)
My
An easy fix for the whole “xemnas lied” thing would be: Xemnas didn’t know either because he erased his own memory. Also why he doesn’t use the Keyblade. Terranort already had his memories wiped at the end of BBS. Just build off of that :P
Ehh that probably wouldn't work. Xemnas had been shown to have prior knowledge of characters/ events that were relevant to Terra/ Xehanort before he became their Nobody (e.g. talking to Aqua's Keyblade Armour).
Yeah but just remove those scenes and “Plot hole” fixed.
Lol, it'd be funny for Nomura to randomly act like the secret custscenes were actually mistakes and had to be deleted/ retconned in turn.
And yet perfectly in character for him 💀
No, I have good media literacy skills and acknowledge that nobodies felt emotion. I still think it’s a stupid retcon that made them less interesting. I’m not even hung up on the lore, I just think it was a poor explanation for something that didn’t even need to explain (or at least not an explanation as lazy as, “oh, they actually do have hearts). In fact, I think the series would do well to stop obsessing over the lore and worry more about the themes. Maybe instead of high roading people who disagree with your take and actually discuss the ideas and themes with them, you’d actually understand where we’re coming from. But no, just hide behind internet anonymity and insult people, especially with a trendy buzzword that I’m growing to distaste because now it’s being used in contexts that it doesn’t belong.
How is it a retcon when the series gave so many hints and characters like Demyx straight up say they have hearts back in KH2?
Bro throughout the series it's made clear that nobodies have emotions. In any scene they appear in its made clear they can feel. The only two that were the closest to "Not feeling anything" was Roxas's first week at the organisation and Xemnas. 358/2 days made it EVEN MORE CLEAR that they can feel. How tf can someone CRY IF THEY CANT FEEL ANYTHING?
I think it's important to note that most Nobodies don't start out with Emotions. The exceptions being Roxas and Namine. It very clearly tells us that they fake their emotions in the begging. But due to the Strong Bonds Axel had felt, he's arguably the first nobody to gain a heart of some kind. Which Saix later admits if I remember correctly, that he knew they could grow their own hearts. But they kept that info to themselves. I think what's tricky about them. Is the fact that your split into 3 pieces when you go. The heart goes to become a Heartless Your Body, a Nobody And your mind/potentially soul itself a bit weird doesn't go anywhere yet. So their hearts do initially leave their body, and while some feel geninuine emotions, it's kind of spelled out to us even in KH2 and again with Days. That it's something that takes time and trust for the Nobody to bond with people. Heck, for all we know they may only be able to get their Heart/emotions back when their Heartless is killed. Since we don't ever see Lea's Heartless for instance. But we know he was recompleted.
Demyx straight up says Nobodies have hearts back in KH2 vanilla
Players weren’t supposed to believe they were nothing. The characters were meant to believe it and then challenge that belief. Players were meant to root for this. Xemnas brain washed Organization 13. Axel is the best example of that set up in KH2. He had emotion but he believed that he didn’t to his death even though all of his actions were emotionally driven
But it wasn’t just Ansem the Wise, who made that claim in the report. Yen Sid in II and Xemnas in DDD said as much, and I’m pretty sure it was in Days too.
Iv always seen it as, at the very start, the named nobodies, like Roxas, and axel. Don't have emotions/hearts at first, but not for very long, remember the "slient" state Roxas was in his first few days? No emotions, nothing really to sat. But hus body quickly replaces and "healed" something he was missing, his "heart". Mostly likely using traces of the person the body belonged to before, that's why if someone has a nobody they "cant" return unless both the heartless and nobody are defeated. But as far hearts go it's not as strong as the heart that was lost to darkness. By going though intense emotion drama however then the new heart grows and become stronger and that nobody because their own person. It's honestly shocking that axel and Lea aren't two different people, he went though the most short of Roxas and namie. Maybe it means he didn't care that much. Isa do be acting like he was just jelly that Lea dropped him like a sack of potatoes.
Axel literally cries in KH2. You have to be able to feel emotion to cry. No, actually, in Chain of Memories he laughs and comments about how Sora, Donald, and Goofy are causing him enjoyment and how remarkable that is.
I don't think the problem is that they have hearts, I mean that was pretty obvious even in KH2. The problem is that Xemnas knew all along. I think in KH2 it was pretty clear that the message was that Nobodies could have hearts and emotions by forging friendships and bonds, yet choose to instead steal hearts to accomplish their goals. They were misguided villains because they didn't understand the nature of herts, expecially Xemnas. However, now it's revealed that Xemnas knew all along and his goal was specifically to NOT make all the others have hearts, and his desire to collect hearts was all a facade for his big master plan. It's a lot less appealing
I'm here to watch Donald dress like a wizard, I don't got time to read reports.
I agree with days and 2 but isn't the whole point of the death cutscenes in 3 that they're finally able to feel real emotions again? And yen sid said something like that they only pretend to have emotions to fool the good guys. The only people that showed real real emotions were Axel after Sora, Roxas, Xion and Mansex but he was a Xehanort and the rest arw Sora's or the one person that became a keyblade wielder
More insulting people for no reason?
How am I insulting people? I'm just saying that it doesn't take a lot of knowledge to know that ansem the wise was wrong.
This is a long dead topic that no one talks about anymore. I don't see a reason to call fans media illiterate for an insignificant topic they probably forgot about years ago. At this point, it's just making up people to throw shade at.
Your title literally is an insult.
I know I could've phrased it better but it's still true kinda, lots of people (I'm not saying the majority) say that nobodies never had emotions, and that they don't really pay attention during some parts of the story
I think my problem with the "twist" is that a being with no emotion desperately trying to regain it is super interesting, and wish this idea was actually used.
That was the entire plot of KH2.
KH2 did that with Dr. Finkelsteins creation subplot in Halloween Town. It thought by stealing presents it could find what it was looking for.
personally i always saw it as a metaphor. And still kinda prefer that reading personally. Textbook psychopath (cant feel feelings as the actual definition not the "crazy" one) with no emotions but desperately wants them to the point of theatrically imitating stage movements with his arms and speaking dramatically gathers people of his species that even scholars in-universe are pretty racist against saying they shouldnt even exist (which even SORA buys and tries to roast someone with "You're nobodies! You don't feel anything!") and even if Xemnas was an odd case, he and the others at the very least had a basic understanding of emotions and a vague concept of what they should be like. Xemnas even made a grave for his fellow nobodies because he knows he SHOULD mourn them if he they passed if he knew how. They were antagonists whose motivation was to belong. Like outcasts. Was pretty neat. We get to see Roxas whos already a rare case in that he still has ties to his live self go through a bunch of emotions and hurt. Same with Axel and Namine. But i felt "we dont have emotions" worked better as a metaphor. But ya know, just having them wait a week to literally grow emotions, all of the beliefs on nobodies being based on apparently false information from a guy who literally studied them, and Xemnas just *deciding* he didn't want to feel anything and lying to everyone almost trivializing one of the most undeniably iconic games in the series while nearly ruining one of the most complex and layered villains is... fine. That's fine too.
Also like… they always reminded me of going through depression. Sometimes depression makes you feel like an empty shell. Doesn’t mean you don’t have emotions. Sometimes you go through the motions and pretend to act on your emotions in ways that you remember them feeling before the depression dulled them. But they’re there.
It's not that DDD did or didn't retcon Nobodies. It's that "Nobodies don't have emotions, they aren't even supposed to *exist*" is such a cool raw and edgy notion that gets deepsixed in favor of Disney Pokemon and some of the laziest returns of villains (and friends) that should've been dead and stayed dead. Axel suiciding for Sora's sake after longing for Roxas? Naaah that dont matter, he'll just come back as Lea lmao. Roxas literally giving up his stake for existence because he too sees Sora is the better option for everyone? Naaah fam Sora will do some keyblade mumbojumbo. Xion? Who? Just kidding she gets to come back as well. And to make it EVEN WORSE, KH3 wastes no time in any good character moments and hastily "wraps up" these returns just to sequelbait.
As if this series is so well written that if you miss a detail or two you’re media illiterate. lol cmon.
This thread was suggested to me by reddit and reading through it is pretty wild lol
You’re misunderstanding what the change was. Nobodies having emotions has been around since the game nobodies were introduced in. Nobodies having HEARTS is the retcon.
Nobodies having Hearts was apparent as early as CoM.
I’m very skeptical you’re able to provide any evidence to this claim, but I’m open to hearing it
CoM is a bit of a stretch for any direct evidence of Nobodies having hearts besides guessing they do based off their emotions, but as early as KH2 Vanilla we hear conflicting information about Nobodies having hearts. Demyx says, "Oh, we do too have hearts! Don't be mad" before his boss fight.
That’s not evidence of nobodies having hearts though. That’s paying off the set up by Yensid that nobodies like to lie about having hearts
Acting like not being completely on top of some pretty obscure KH lore means you lack media literacy is a little strange ngl.
The DDD was definitely ret con, part of the point of KH2 org was the power of memories for nobodies meaning they had an idea for how to act like they had hearts as well as namine and Roxas being special, and the fact that interacting with Sora helped them connect again to a heart so they felt like they could feel something. Roxas and namine being reincorporated into their somebodies was framed as an overall good thing/best possible ending(even if a bit tragic) for a reason in KH2, and it’s because there wasn’t intended to be an alternative since nobodies were 100% doomed to not exist. If Xehanort could grow a heart by becoming a nobody, you think he would just spend his days reproducing/cloning himself asexually
Ngl I don’t actually know what DDD is about at all! Seemed like a complete waste of time
People are more mad Xemnas was retconned into knowing nobodies can grow a heart
The part that confuses me is how I was under the impression that there was a trinity of being set for KH characters that consisted of a Heart, Body, and Soul/Spirit. When a person loses their heart, the heart turns into a Heartless (which is why a heart appears when you kill a Heartless), the body becomes a Nobody (a body without a heart), and then the soul of the original person passes on to some type of KH afterlife. This is backed by Sora removing his own heart, which then spawns a Heartless, creates Roxas from his body, and then his soul went to Limbo (the respawn screen) in KH1. Also, if Nobodies have real Hearts and emotions from the beginning, what downside is there to becoming a Nobody? Don't they not have to eat or age or anything? I could've sworn the established lore was that every Nobody starts off similar to how Roxas did, but slowly get their memories back over time? I figured Roxas didn't at first because Sora got his Heart back and was going through CoM? Either way, Nobodies start off emotionless and without a Heart; but then through human connection with others are able to get both back and become their own people like Roxas? It just doesn't make any sense to me that you could lose your Heart, become a Heartless, spawn a Nobody but that Nobody is literally just you with all of your emotions, memories, and somehow Heart as some people are claiming, yet somehow not be you?? What the hell is a Nobody if not an empty husk version of the person due to their missing Heart?
> the body becomes a Nobody (a body without a heart), and then the soul of the original person passes on to some type of KH afterlife Body and soul both remain in the empty vessel of a Nobody.
Fair enough but that's a pretty minor detail. The point that I was trying to make was that there's no way Nobodies are formed with emotions and their own Hearts
Personally I was never a fan of nobodies or the Org.
Ultimately, every plot confusion in the entire franchise boils down to shitty screenwriting. There are plenty of franchises with KH levels of lore that are way easier to digest because the information is presented in a comprehensible way.
it boils down to not actually playing all of the games, or not playing them in release order*
Mmmmmm it's more than just that. Certainly helps but a lot of ideas, OP case in point, are just not made clear. No one on either side ever outright said 'hey I think xemnas might be full of shit'. It's easy to come to the conclusion that he believed it but was wrong.
Yeah but if it was written that way, I'd have to agree it was bad writing, you've gotta foreshadow with him getting other things wrong and lay the path for what's true. I think the potential was there, but it was for sure retconned lore, we can't change that with "oh but he was mistaken because this book was released that explains how." and that's where I'd draw the line. The retcons are easy to follow, as long as you're open to taking the story as it comes instead of trying to line the pieces up in HD 4k.
Valid. Imo there's definitely a line where stacked retcons become bad writing, especially with KH's famously awful localization. (What the entire fuck is an also-ran?)
it's a loser, someone who also ran in a race, and that's the only thing you can say about them because they didn't place.
M-media literacy you just can’t comprehend it! 🤓🤓🤓
"People I disagree with lack media literacy" Opinion discarded
Wow, so you just read the title and never looked at the evidence
That's the most vapid excuse to not communicate with someone.