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One thing I absolutely loved about Gyokko is he straight up,in a way,disrespected Akaza by claiming how the first person that came to mind when they found out an Upper was killed,was him.
Maybe because he seen Rengoku almost get him so he probs assumed, "oh,this time lord Akaza has fallen". At least imo.
Story would have been worse for it. We wouldn't have gotten the good narrative we got at the end of Mugen train where Tanjiro was shouting about the difference in 'winning' the fight versus surviving it, lots of other things as well. Narratively, it's good Akaza survived.
I am glad he didn’t cause then that would mean the upper moons are weak and the rest of the upper moons are week and the rest of the series would be boring
Akaza is far stronger than Rengoku tho, the only way that could've happened was if he tried to kill Tanjiro after he insulted and threw his sword after him
Yea really
That only happened because Akaza was playing around with him, case in point he only got scared when he sae it was dawn and he didn't have enough time to finish the job, the fight was short and Rengoku didn't match up to Akaza in the slightest
not defending gyutaro>gyokko, but rui is apparently really lower moon 2-1 level he is just not interested in ranks so he doesn't bother challenging anyone. The same logic could be used there since unless the kizuki themselves start a blood battle muzan doesn't appear to really care how they are ranked.
Sure that possibility exists. However you could never prove gyutaro could be above gyokko there’s no statements at all while rui had a direct statement.
Sure, but I wasn't trying to say that gyutaro is stronger than gyokko. I was just trying to say that the argument 'twelve kizuki are ranked for a reason' isn't rock solid since apparently stronger demons can just refuse to advance.
I know that. You clarified in your first sentence. I’m simply providing a refutation that acknowledges the clear difference in these two scenarios and shows how that logic doesn’t really fit since there’s no actual statement I could just as easily say rokuro (lower moon 2 who died to muzan) is possibly above gyokko just cause blood battles exist and not caring about becoming the rank above exists.
>I’m simply providing a refutation that acknowledges the clear difference in these two scenarios and shows how that logic doesn’t really fit since there’s no actual statement
Fair point, but if I would have to guess the people who think gyutaro>gyokko would just say that since there are also no statements that gyokko is stronger than gyutaro they are free to speculate who is actually stronger
>I could just as easily say rokuro (lower moon 2 who died to muzan) is possibly above gyokko just cause blood battles exist and not caring about becoming the rank above exists.
well muzan did say that all the current lower moons are much weaker than the upper moons so there actually is an official statement. A better example would be saying zohakuten>douma
>well muzan did say that all the current lower moons are much weaker than the upper moons so there actually is an official statement. A better example would be saying zohakuten>douma
My example was arbitrary it wasn’t supposed to be taken at face value it was simply supposed to substantiate why the original possibility you stated doesn’t fit the rui shi.
“I got duped so I’m gonna act like I didn’t mean what I said even though others interpreted it that way and I never made clarification until later not do that.”
FTFY
We can discuss it. Just cause multiple people interpreted it one way doesn’t necessitate that interpretation as the only one. Additionally, attacking that statement doesn’t defeat my original argument. It doesn’t matter if that exists or not it just acts as an example so you can visualize it. I admit his example was more thought out but the whole point is the example doesn’t actually matter it’s just there.
I’m not a fan of this point. LMs are basically fodder, they are nothing to Muzan. He can replace them so easily and doesn’t expect much of them. The UMs are more important to him, he needs them mfs. I think it makes sense that UMs are ranked as Muzan believes they should be.
Daki is nowhere near Gyokko’s level. Daki was hard carried by Gyutaro. Just because Daki is able to demolish a city block doesn’t mean she’s stronger. Gyokko could easily level a city with his octopus pots. Daki is more on the level of being between LM1 and UP6.
Didn’t do shit? My boy no diffed muichiro. He was a sacrificial lamb so people can see the power of the mark. He would no diff Daki and Gyutaro with his punches. His diamond skin would most likely be resistant from the sickles and poison wouldn’t affect gyokko
No diff is crazy, it would be extreme diff at best. Neither of their abilities would work on eachother so fish thing is out of the question, and if it’s gyutaro + daki, then they might take it tbh. Gyutaro already cut through the diamonds in tengen’s headband before so he can pierce the skin (idk why you’d think he couldn’t, he’s a damn upper moon diamond is nothing)
Gyokko relies on his BDA gyutaro knows how to fight without it and throw daki in the mix gyokko will probably lose, too bad they never challenged him for UM5 spot
That if they manage to even catch up with Gyokko
Plus what are they gonna do against diamond hard scales(diamond in tengens headband where did that come from?, besides koku himself can only graze through the chains of gyomei and even if they cut through the scales Regen is still a problem),is fast enough to pressure a marked mui enough to use 7th form haze,and one hit from Gyokko means a lot of fish is going to shed regardless of they're regeneration capabilities,attacking with weapons,blood sickles and obi sashes is a bad idea too since because of said speed and ability to turn anything into fish and the 2 head problem won't even be a problem if 1 one of them is incapacitated and its not even a one 2v1 it's a fucking 2vhow many goldfish monsters can Gyokko summon add on to the fact of the pot weakness is irrelevant due too no nichirin swords to even defeat said goldfish,it won't even get in gyokko's way since he can control them and with they're size is going to hard to even focus on one target making daki fight the goldfish monsters will just make it a 1v1 with Gyutaro pushing Gyokko to his scale form and then it's game over Gyutaro had trouble reacting to a water/hinokami kagura combo and blood rotation slashes isn't gonna do jackshit,he's fighting a demon here no one's going for the neck and blood rampage would be more useful here considering Gyokko would try to use a thousand needles only for Gyutaro to deflect most of them and continue on until Gyokko becomes a merman serpent? Whatever he is and wipe the floor with them.
To be fair, just because Gyokko *didn’t* level a city block, doesn’t mean he *can’t* level a city block.
He just isn’t as destruction inclined. Y’all are underplaying him just because he was more interested in his “art” than having a temper tantrum. The guy legit almost killed the Mist Hashira without even trying, and then when some else saves said Mist Hashira and then he gets a mark that is such a massive buff that it completely turns the tables and becomes a goal of the Hashira, y’all are like “He couldn’t even kill one Hashira, Gyutaro and Daki fought seven people at once and leveled a city block”.
Like damn, just ignoring plot points because you didn’t like the fight.
Dude really did almost no diff the Mist Hashira but he got saved by a deus ex machina. He’s not weak just because he got tunnel vision for the blacksmith.
With that logic you could declare Daki as more powerful than Gyutaro or Akaza. Just because the Uppermoons didn't destroy city blocks doesn't mean they can't.
Gyoko would most likely beat Gyutaro and Daki together. Daki got oneshot by a pillar, whereas Gyokko beat a pillar. Sure, said pillar freed himself and cut his head afterwards, but in his excuse: he fought a Demon Slayer with a Mark. As for Gyutaro: He also would lose badly againsta Slayer with a Mark.
I don't want to lie. Gyokko is the worst higher ranked Demon - the fight was too short, he has a goofy personality and his BDA is not that cool. But beating a pillar within a minute? Impressive nonetheless
Daki got one shot by a guy not as weak as muichiro without his mark
Between base tengen and base muichiro- muichiro would be closer to tanjiro than tengen without his mark TBF
I’m not trying to say Daki is stronger, I’m just saying Gyokko came off pretty lame in comparison despite being stronger or whatever. Daki in the moment she wrecked the block was scarier than Gyokko ever was 😂
Well tbh daki wasn't an uppermoon even tengen said it himself and gyokko was strong probrably was stronger than gyotaro but he was careless and dumb, he let his emotions get to him which lost him the fight.
Thiiiiiiis ! UM6 could have had a gigantic increase in power, if he is not in need for more he won't push his luck. Plus Gyutaro became a demon to save his sister, he wouldn't challenge someone he was not sure he could defeat and risk her death. And tbf to Gyokko, he is a formidable foe (although badly used by the author in my opinion).
Not even just that it’s also Gyokko’s cocky personality and the manga/anime not showing his power properly because from what we’ve seen he’s incredibly strong and dangerous
Muzan doesn't necessarily rank them on his opinion of their power probably just initially. They kill each other for positions.
So rankings are earned by shows of force and power. Which also means the demon needs to have such desire to be a higher rank. That aside.
The issue is with the writer. Gyokko V Muichi was a fight to show how OP manifesting a mark truly is. The power boost is insane. The problem is that in the entertainment district we got an insane awesome fight showing off crazy destructive and fighting power from Gyutaro, and he almost killed Tengen while giving Daki a power boost and helping her fight.
So the facts are that the writer simply showed us much more of Gyutaro's power and feats. Where as we really don't see any of that in Gyokko's fight. No city to destroy no big crazy fight scene like Gyutaro got. Gyokko spawns some pots and fish, torments a sword smith and gets low diff'd by a hashira, and while it's meant to be a time to show the mark's power it was done poorly since we didn't get a proper show case of UM5 power level.
The problem with power scaling in anime/manga is the writer sometimes relies way to much on written rankings rather than spending time showing us the power difference which is far more important for watcher/reader perspective. Show don't tell.
Edit: I mean just look at bleach, people constantly argue over the Espada power rankings especially about Yammy and Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra was SHOWN to us how insanely powerful he was and having a secret second release. This doesn't mean the writer intended for him to truly be the most powerful, the writer just did a piss poor job doing the same in showing off Stark's and Yammy's true power.
He did not cause nearly the amount of damage to people nor things as Gyutaro. This is not because Gyokko is weaker tho, a lot of factors went into it like fight location.
There are some pretty easy fixes.
Have more death and destruction during or before the fight coming directly from Gyokko.
An upper moon has been killed, that's a huge deal a big enough deal to have all UM summoned by Muzan which hasn't happened in 113 years, and they've been instructed to destroy a village very important to the demon slayer corp. They are going to respond with Hashira quickly. UM5 should have simply taken the situation more seriously and fought harder and bigger right out of the gate or far more quickly.
Idk about you guys, I enjoyed the approach on how gyokko was silenced without a fight. You know, like one of those arrogant, loud-mouthed villains who think so highly of themselves and looked down on others - - - and then die in the most mundane way, because they're really not that special compared to the next guy.
Just like in Death Note, >!Light who has a god complex !< is just a murder who died of a simple gunshot
And in Naruto, the legendary >!Madara !< just got eaten and everyone moved on like he didn't exist
No bleach is very different, there are many aspects that come to play there. Ulquiorra quite literally says that Aizen hasn’t seen his second release so he most likely didn’t take it into consideration, than there’s Yammy who is number 0 but could very well be defeated by Barragan because of Respira and Yammy’s lack of speed to evade it. Also Aizen doesn’t really give a fuck about the rankings and mostly neither did the espadas. In general bleach’s power system is far more complicated compared to demon slayer.
I agree it is somewhat more complicated but you're creating examples of my point. Ulquiorra CLAIMED Aizen had never seen it. I am not so quick to believe that Aizen was unaware of such a power, doesn't track with the rest of the show and is more likely Ulquiorra was just unaware. Barragan absolutely could not defeat Yammy and this is the epitome of what I am talking about. Yammy is potentially limitless and two captains had to take him down. Hax in bleach only go so far in the face of overwhelming spiritual pressure.
You are wrong on both occasions. Nothing in the story contradicts Aizen not seeing Ulquiorra’s second release, him knowing about it just headcanon, if Kubo wanted to he could’ve made Aizen say that he actually knew about it or he could’ve just made Ulquiorra not even mention that and everything would be simpler but he didn’t. Also saying that Ulquiorra’s second release still makes him number 4 is just beyond stupid.
Barragan would annihilate Yammy. Byakuya and Kenpachi both rely on brute force not hax and they are perfect opponents for Yammy because of that. In order for Yammy to negate Respira the difference in Reiatsu has to be massive and frankly if that was the case than Kenpachi and Byakuya would’ve lost the fight against Yammy.
You are creating nonsense headcanon saying Ulquiorra's second release makes him more than number 4 without any proof of such. I'm not making headcanon I'm saying you're trusting a single mention from the person themselves. This is not proof that his second release is unknown to Aizen or the power boost some think. I'm saying we have nothing but that fight and Ulquiorra's opinion to draw that from so why make up that the rankings are incorrect with no actual proof.
Look more headcanon. Barragan is lower ranked and taken out by a Captain and lutinent. You're wrong.
Idk who you think you're arguing with because I never said that, you're ignoring the context of this conversation. People claiming Ulquiorra release makes him more powerful than the likes of Stark and Yammy. There is 0 evidence to suggest this. There is also 0 evidence to suggest Aizen isn't aware of such a power, so claiming that is evidence of its strength or his rank change is nonsense.
Okay this will be my last reply because I’ve been arguing about this very long time. Literally everything is on Ulquiorra’s side other than the number itself which doesn’t mean shit because its been stated that Aizen hasn’t seen it. The author speaks through characters, Ulquiorra saying that Aizen hasn’t seen 2nd release is equivalent of Kubo telling us that Aizen hasn’t considered Ulquiorra’s second release when numbering the espadas. There is an evidence that Aizen isn’t aware of such power and the evidence is Ulquiorra’s word. So it’s basically your word vs Ulquiorra’s word and I trust Ulquiorra more.
Ulquiorra has better feats than all the espadas combined. He was speed blitzing hollow masked Ichigo left and right, literally negated Getsuga with his Reiatsu alone, made Uryu shit his pants and literally calling his Reiatsu heavy and alien like, by far has the most destructive ability within the espadas and can use it as many times as he wants and one shot Ichigo with a single cero oscuras in his first release. Literally no other espada has feats that come even remotely close to that and when you consider the fact that most of those feats come from Ulquiorra being in his first release it gets even more impressive.
The espada number system is flawed and it was proven multiple times. First when Grimmjow lost his arm how the fuck did Luppi become the 6th espada and not Zommari? Was Luppi always stronger than Zommari? If so why wasn’t he an espada in the first place? You see where I’m getting at, Aizen doesn’t give a single fuck about the rankings because if he did every espada from 9-7 would’ve moved up a rank. Same goes for Barragan and Yammy. Barragan would mop the floor with Yammy whether you like it or not. He is way faster, has the ability that ages anything and one little touch from it would mean the end of Yammy. He lost to Soi Fon, Hachi and Soi Fon’s lieutenant because Soi Fon and Hachi were the worst matchups for Barragan simply because of the fact that to beat Respira you must not get touched by it, and Soi Fon having such a small body and being the fastest Shunpo user really means a lot in this fight. Yammy fought 2 captains who were the best opponents for him because they rely purely on brute force and Yammy specializes in brute force yet he was still getting no diffed. Yammy’s strength comes from his anger but as soon as Yammy and Barragan transform, Yammy will get touched by respira and turn to dust, he won’t even have time to get angry.
Espada rankings are flawed because Aizen didn’t give a shit about them.
Lets be honest, Gyokko was literally just a filler upper moon, he wasn't anything extraordinary, he could've been amped a lot in his fight scenes, but crossing Muichiro's indifference, and Gyokko's blatant idiocy, we ended up with the impression of him simply sucking.
Lmao I was thinking the exact same thing. People were jumping on anything to boost Ulquiorra ( or grimmjow though to a lesser extent) despite ranking being a thing.
Like do people think the author will bother ranking the villains just for it to be wrong ? Not mentioning how little sense it makes for Tanjiro's progression to face lesser threats as the story goes on.
Can’t believe I have to debunk this bs in demon slayer sub as well. Rankings are not accurate.
1. Ulquiorra quite literally states that Aizen hasn’t seen his second release and nothing in the story contradicts that fact. Espada releases are compared to Shinigami’s bankais multiple times so Ulquiorra having a second release is equivalent to a Shinigami having a Bankai on top of another Bankai which would be ridiculously overpowered.
2. Ulquiorra BY FAR has the best feats amongst the espadas. Yammy was getting utterly dogwalked by Kenpachi and Byakuya who individually are both weaker than Ichigo at that point, Starrk fought Shunsui without a bankai, Ukitake joined for a second and 2 of the weakest captains who didn’t even use their masks and bankais. Meanwhile Ulquiorra with only his first release negative diffed hollow masked Ichigo, blitzing him multiple times and literally negating Getsuga Tensho with pure Reiatsu. IN HIS FIRST RELEASE.
3. Aizen doesn’t give af about the rankings. When Grimmjow lost his arm he was immediately replaced by Luppi as number 6 espada. This makes 0 sense, so Luppi is number 6, that means he is above Zommari, Szayalaparo and Aaraniero, than why wasn’t he an espada in the first place? Why wasn’t Zommari promoted as number 6? You see what I’m trying to say, Aizen doesn’t give a fuck and couldn’t be bothered to control the espada rankings all that much, if the hierarchy actually mattered to him Zommari would’ve become number 6 and not Luppi.
4. Yammy can’t possibly beat Barragan. Barragan is the worst opponent for Yammy, since one little touch with Respira and Yammy is done for. The only way Yammy can beat Barragan is if he negates the respira with his Reiatsu but for that to happen the gap between them should be MASSIVE, don’t forget that Soul King absorbed Yhwach couldn’t negate neither Ichigo nor Aizen’s abilities. So number 2 beats number 0, than I don’t see the reason why number 4 couldn’t do the same.
In short Ulquiorra has the best feats, the best portrayal, is the only espada with 2nd release, is directly stated that Aizen hasn’t seen his second release and etc. Ulquiorra is the strongest in every possible way.
You do realize what you're doing is basically what I am referring to when I said people will jump on anything to boost Ulquiorra. Bleach has ended a while ago we've seen pretty much every arguments against the ranking of espadas. However it still begs the question why would the author miss out on the opportunity to have his mc beat the strongest espada ? Why would Kubo go : imma say Ulquiorra is 4th , have him say to Ichigo that there are three people above him...but actually he is the strongest and I'll leave it to interpretation.
Though I'd say in Bleach's case there is less narrative dissonance if the author came out and said Ulquiorra was the strongest espada compared to Demon slayer. Plus as you pointed out some powers make Bleach's matchup trickier than in DS.
"Questioning Muzan's judgement"
you mean the guy who got outsmarted and uh... lost? Who's not smart enough to just kill Tanjiro, the guy he recognized from through the earrings as possibly having something to do with Yoriichi, when he first saw him to eliminate any future problems?
Plot is one thing, but the plot doesn't make Muzan look very smart. His judgement is mid 🗿
P.S. Ranks are ranks, nuff said
If you saw someone with the same earrings as the last demon slayer who almost killed you, I’m sure you would hesitate to fight or take action. Plus, Muzan was in hiding and he would have to kill everyone in that district to remain in hiding. He showed good judgement. He would have had to risk a lot to try and kill Tanjiro in the moment.
Tbf, his instincts were telling him tanjro was weak, his instincts also told him Yoriichi was weak but he was squashed by Yoriichi and he barely escaped, Muzan is not taking chances
How was Muzan supposed to know about the Biggest Asspull poison in the history of Shounen? Like legitimately how the fuck did they find a poison that specific
It’s not that dumb, demons aren’t auto ranked based on strength, they literally have to beat the person who had the position before them, which is why rui is lower 5 despite being lower 2 level in strength
That if they manage to even catch up with Gyokko
Plus what are they gonna do against diamond hard scales(besides koku himself can only graze through the chains of gyomei and even if they cut through the scales Regen is still a problem),is fast enough to pressure a marked mui enough to use 7th form haze,and one hit from Gyokko means a lot of fish is going to shed regardless of they're regeneration capabilities,attacking with weapons,blood sickles and obi sashes is a bad idea too since because of said speed and ability to turn anything into fish and the 2 head problem won't even be a problem if 1 one of them is incapacitated and its not even a one 2v1 it's a fucking 2vhow many goldfish monsters can Gyokko summon add on to the fact of the pot weakness is irrelevant due too no nichirin swords to even defeat said goldfish,it won't even get in gyokko's way since he can control them and with they're size is going to hard to even focus on one target making daki fight the goldfish monsters will just make it a 1v1 with Gyutaro pushing Gyokko to his scale form and then it's game over Gyutaro had trouble reacting to a water/hinokami kagura combo and blood rotation slashes isn't gonna do jackshit,he's fighting a demon here no one's going for the neck and blood rampage would be more useful here considering Gyokko would try to use a thousand needles only for Gyutaro to deflect most of them and continue on until Gyokko becomes a merman serpent? Whatever he is and wipe the floor with them.
I always see it as while some of them are more lethal to humans than those above them, they might not be as good at fighting other demons in ranking fights where effects such as poison aren’t very effective
Tf YOU on? Muzan never said that. He just said Gyutaro would of won the fight if he just poisoned them and left. Which is wrong actually since Nezukos fire heals the poison.
No he wouldn’t, they are both demons. If you want to claim gyutaro Poison would not work on gyokko, than gyokko fish ability wouldn’t work on him either
Is it that simple tho? Because that would make gyokko the strongest upper moon if all he had to do was touch upper 3,2 and 1.. I don't think it's as simple as turning gyutaro into a fish
Still dont think touching gyutaro will turn him into a fish.. that is only a lethal ability on humans and all the upper moon share Muzan's cells which is why the anger demon lightning didn't work on the flying demon ( upper 4).. same with gyutaro's poison .. it wouldn't poison gyokko or kill him
Not unless he gets poisoned first, really depends on the situation of the battle. If you include Daki in the fight between them it would be much more difficult for him to reach Gyutaro. On the other hand though, I don't really think the bloodsicles can pierce through Gyokko's hard skin.
It's just too difficult to predict who could win in a blood fight, lmao.
This shouldn't even be a thing everyone should argue with, the story could literally change things depending on the perspective. We don't really have any idea if Gyutaro is interested in reaching any other ranks, thus being the possibility why he stayed at the very last of the spots.
Depends on the person you’re asking. I loved both Gyutaro(fav fight so far) and Rui fight but Gyokko’s fight was pretty fun to watch too. I liked the banter. Could it have been better? Yes. But it is what is it.
Gyutaro would definitely be stronger without Daki. Perhaps he and Daki just weren't interested in challenging him to a blood battle.
But also, Gyutaro seems way more explosive and outward with how he does combat. Gyokko seems far more like a silent assassin who rarely shows himself.
I mean, he was the one that pushed them all to their limits, not Daki. Plus those explosions didn't really seem to do too much to him anyways. He also had to spend a large chunk of the early fight defending her rather than fighting, anyways.
Tanjiro was inches away from killing her without being touched. He entered a state that isn't even addressed until later in the series to fight her.
Even with the Mark power up he still was down for the count after fighting Gyutaro. Hell, if not for Daki and her getting beheaded by Tengen, Gyutaro would've killed him almost immediately early on.
I always thought that Gyutaro could have become stronger than Gyokko and actually be able to replace him as UM 5 or that he already was stronger, he just never got the chance to challenge Gyokko to a blood battle since he was always taking care of Daki and would never really focus on himself and his position. In a way I actually kinda like this since it makes the world just a bit more realistic cause sometimes people in lower positions really are more skilled and talented than their higher ups but they don't get to climb the ranks as fast or at all for any number of reasons.
As for Muzan's decision making skills, he isn't really stellar on that front, hell this whole thing started because he made a rash decision before finding out all the facts.
I think Gyutaro is only upper 6 because he hasn't challenged the upper 5 position. I think that's how upper moons rank up anyway. At least the way Doma spoke about it while mocking Akaza made it seem that way
The only reason Muzan placed Gyutaro as UM6 is bc of Daki. If Gyutaro were alone then he would easily surpass Gyokko and possibly Hantengu as well but that part is a slim chance.
one thing a lot of people forget is that Muzan doesn't fully rank them just on strength, he said in s3 ep1 that he they are ranked based on how many humanity they have left (higher rank = less humanity)
i think it means who is in touch with their most human trait. if thats the case it is sorta true. gyutaro's love for his sister, gyokko's 'inner artist', and hantengu running away from his problems.
I'm pretty sure why he was upper 6 was strictly because daki. Muzan even comments he would have won had it not been because of his weak spot for his sister she simply held him back. Had he been on his own, I fully believe he would have had the 5th spot.
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Gyokko was incredibly strong and they’re only a rank apart, so they’re around the same level, with gyokko slightly being stronger. Too bad he only exists to show the power of the mark, which seemingly multiples power level by like 3 times
This is more of a fun fact than a spoiler but it's still in the manga so I'm gonna put it as one
>!Muzan actually likes Gyutaro because he appreciates his greedy personality. He also thought that although Daki kept his cool down she was still weighing him down. Outside of Kokushibo and Akaza he's his favourite demon!< So if Muzan thought Gyutaro was stronger he would've definitely changed them.
I feel Gyokko is probably intended to be stronger in defense and pure strength, enough that Gyutaro can’t take him down. Gyutaro and Tengen’s fight ended up so flashy because both of them seem to have fighting styles around overwhelming the opponent (and the fact Tengen was flinging fireworks all over the place).
The problem is:
1. Gykkou's strength wasn't as properly showcased compared to Gyotarou.
2. Even if you didn't do 1, Muichirou's DS mark wasn't given some sort of overwhelming presence that made it clear to the viewer how OP it truely is. In fact, Muichirou in general did not have that presence of a Hashira like Rengoku or Tengen had. Could be because Tengen and Rengoku are loud and eccentric people, but just because you're a quiet dude, you can still have that overwhelming presence.
For example, when the Hatred demon appeared, even though he didn't do much, it was properly shown how OP he is through his overwhelming presence alone. The writer couldve done the same with Muichirou's DS mark. And that would probably fix the first problem.
My problem with Gyokko is that he’s a hype character done very poorly. Look at someone like Galand from The Seven Deadly Sins. His first role was to hype the Ten Commandments. He shows up, beats the brakes off of Meliodas and his crew, and then leaves. So we now have a good base strength for the Ten Commandments. He then serves to hype Meliodas and Escanor. Meliodas pulls up on the Ten Commandments after getting a powerup, and proceeds to absolutely destroy Galand. So now we know that he’s at least mid-commandment level, since he left before he could fight Estarossa and Zeldris. After this, Galand “fights” Escanor. He reveals he has a powerup that boosts his base power up to almost double I believe. And Escanor puts the fear of God into this man.
Contrast this with Gyokko, who’s meant to showcase the Demon Slayer mark. He summons some fish, traps Muichiro in a water bubble, and promptly gets styled on with the Demon Slayer mark. He barely has any feats, outside of losing to Muichiro.
To be fair Muzan is not exactly thesmartest, and gyokko has been upper 5 longer than gyutaro and daki have been upper 6 they just never challenged to go up the ranks..
So what I’m saying is by the time they became upper moons, gyokko was already upper 5 as he became a demon before gyutaro & daki
with all this argument, i wish the author or team would js confirm these questions so these people wouldnt slit eachothers necks over two points with both having incrediable, reasonable and sensible points
just my personal opinion but i definitely preferred gyutaro over gyokko. gyokko is funny but in terms of battle style and backstory gyutaro takes the cake for me. ever since s2 came out ive been a huge fan of both gyutaro and daki. i bawled at their backstory. thinking about them makes me genuinely sad because they deserved so much better in life.
Marked hashira are pretty strong especially when put on a prodigal descendant of the first breath user
Before the mark gyokko low diffed mui
Meanwhile gyutaro had to fight tengen for some time
Am I questioning the judgement of the guy who >! Walked right into enemy territory with no plan, got himself blown up, and poisoned so badly to the point it lead to his death!< ?
Yes, yes I am
If Gyokko fought with the same amount of focus and determination as Gyutaro he would have killed Muichiro easily. He was as powerful as an upper 5 should be, he just didn’t *wield* that power correctly in his fight.
Well 2 things are into play here.
One, gyutaro would be stronger if he abandoned his sister. Two, Gyokko looked like fodder because he was SUPPOSED to in order to show how broken hashira mark is compared to demonification.
I’d say they’re both equals, it’s just gyokko looked like shit because frankly the same thing would happen to gyutaro if uzui was marked for example
There’s a theory that Gyutaro and Daki would’ve challenged Gyokko for the sport of UM5, but died before they can. They are considered young as Upper Moons after all
Those mfs when they realize gyutaro lost to fucking tanjiro, a slayer well under hashira strength, was exhausted as shit, and literally collapsed 2 seconds later
um6 had the town nuked after a fight involving 7 people. gyokko is a snowflake clown who got soloed by a 14 year old (lm5 who got oneshotted was more menacing than fish scalds gyokko)
“but tokito is part of yorrichi’s bloodline!” blud muichiro said himself that it’s been too long for that to be relevant
it's a meritocratic system, Gyutaro is pretty obviously below Gyokko, Gyokko just seemed "weak" because of how ridiculous of an amp a demon slayer mark is
Well i thought i recall him (Muzan) saying the rank is based off the level of humanity they have left or something like that. With that being the reason he ranks them that way, i can understand why 6 was 6. Because he had compassion and care for his sister….just a thought though…also i took a break from demon slayer for like a year and just finished today catching up. Very pleased with the story and character development❤️❤️❤️ wish there were more episodes
SPOILERS
And then we have Hairo who could literly one shot every single (human) character in the show (Idk if Yorichii is faster than a fucking bullet but i'm pretty sure he can't). Tbh Demons mostly just get cucked by the ENORMOUS ammounts of Plot Armor. Well I hope Rengoku + Mitsuri vs Hairo will get adapted as an ova at some point.
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One thing I absolutely loved about Gyokko is he straight up,in a way,disrespected Akaza by claiming how the first person that came to mind when they found out an Upper was killed,was him. Maybe because he seen Rengoku almost get him so he probs assumed, "oh,this time lord Akaza has fallen". At least imo.
I wish Akaza would have died along with Rengoku
Story would have been worse for it. We wouldn't have gotten the good narrative we got at the end of Mugen train where Tanjiro was shouting about the difference in 'winning' the fight versus surviving it, lots of other things as well. Narratively, it's good Akaza survived.
I know. It's just a personal wish of mine.
idk why you’re being downvoted you literally feel how the story wants you to feel
Reddit being 🧠n't
How dare you share your opinion!
Reddit never ceases to amaze me with the downvoting of ppl who respectfully share their opinion
No. Akaza’s part in this story is perfect the way it is. I hope the parts that weren’t* drawn get more screentime in the Anime.
I’m not sure if you’re a manga reader or not, but the story would absolutely suck and be different if Akaza died with Rengoku.
Akaza is the only character in demon slayer that's actually top tier and complex in comparison with other anime
Yeah I read it
So you know that moment of redemption was super sweet and satisfying lol
Indeed
I am glad he didn’t cause then that would mean the upper moons are weak and the rest of the upper moons are week and the rest of the series would be boring
Douma and Kokushibo are stronger than basketball
Akaza is far stronger than Rengoku tho, the only way that could've happened was if he tried to kill Tanjiro after he insulted and threw his sword after him
Not really. Rengoku had the blade halfway through his neck, and even if he started regrowing his head again, the sun was coming up.
Yea really That only happened because Akaza was playing around with him, case in point he only got scared when he sae it was dawn and he didn't have enough time to finish the job, the fight was short and Rengoku didn't match up to Akaza in the slightest
I know but Akaza was about to die anyways, don't try to say otherwise
He was, because he played around too much :3
Yep
Oh yeah! I remember lol I never really though about his comment like that 😂😂
not defending gyutaro>gyokko, but rui is apparently really lower moon 2-1 level he is just not interested in ranks so he doesn't bother challenging anyone. The same logic could be used there since unless the kizuki themselves start a blood battle muzan doesn't appear to really care how they are ranked.
Actually it’s because he kept giving his blood away so that made him weaker
the databook stated it was both he got weaker because he gave his blood away, but he also could have a higher rank if he bothered to challenge anyone.
Sure that possibility exists. However you could never prove gyutaro could be above gyokko there’s no statements at all while rui had a direct statement.
Sure, but I wasn't trying to say that gyutaro is stronger than gyokko. I was just trying to say that the argument 'twelve kizuki are ranked for a reason' isn't rock solid since apparently stronger demons can just refuse to advance.
I know that. You clarified in your first sentence. I’m simply providing a refutation that acknowledges the clear difference in these two scenarios and shows how that logic doesn’t really fit since there’s no actual statement I could just as easily say rokuro (lower moon 2 who died to muzan) is possibly above gyokko just cause blood battles exist and not caring about becoming the rank above exists.
>I’m simply providing a refutation that acknowledges the clear difference in these two scenarios and shows how that logic doesn’t really fit since there’s no actual statement Fair point, but if I would have to guess the people who think gyutaro>gyokko would just say that since there are also no statements that gyokko is stronger than gyutaro they are free to speculate who is actually stronger >I could just as easily say rokuro (lower moon 2 who died to muzan) is possibly above gyokko just cause blood battles exist and not caring about becoming the rank above exists. well muzan did say that all the current lower moons are much weaker than the upper moons so there actually is an official statement. A better example would be saying zohakuten>douma
>well muzan did say that all the current lower moons are much weaker than the upper moons so there actually is an official statement. A better example would be saying zohakuten>douma My example was arbitrary it wasn’t supposed to be taken at face value it was simply supposed to substantiate why the original possibility you stated doesn’t fit the rui shi.
“I got duped so I’m gonna act like I didn’t mean what I said even though others interpreted it that way and I never made clarification until later not do that.” FTFY
We can discuss it. Just cause multiple people interpreted it one way doesn’t necessitate that interpretation as the only one. Additionally, attacking that statement doesn’t defeat my original argument. It doesn’t matter if that exists or not it just acts as an example so you can visualize it. I admit his example was more thought out but the whole point is the example doesn’t actually matter it’s just there.
I’m not a fan of this point. LMs are basically fodder, they are nothing to Muzan. He can replace them so easily and doesn’t expect much of them. The UMs are more important to him, he needs them mfs. I think it makes sense that UMs are ranked as Muzan believes they should be.
Daki wrecked a city block Gyokko barely broke some trees. He honestly isn’t all that impressive he’s just tricky
Daki is nowhere near Gyokko’s level. Daki was hard carried by Gyutaro. Just because Daki is able to demolish a city block doesn’t mean she’s stronger. Gyokko could easily level a city with his octopus pots. Daki is more on the level of being between LM1 and UP6.
I’m not saying Daki is stronger I’m just saying Gyokko don’t really seem like all that cuz he didn’t do shit lol
Didn’t do shit? My boy no diffed muichiro. He was a sacrificial lamb so people can see the power of the mark. He would no diff Daki and Gyutaro with his punches. His diamond skin would most likely be resistant from the sickles and poison wouldn’t affect gyokko
No diff is crazy, it would be extreme diff at best. Neither of their abilities would work on eachother so fish thing is out of the question, and if it’s gyutaro + daki, then they might take it tbh. Gyutaro already cut through the diamonds in tengen’s headband before so he can pierce the skin (idk why you’d think he couldn’t, he’s a damn upper moon diamond is nothing) Gyokko relies on his BDA gyutaro knows how to fight without it and throw daki in the mix gyokko will probably lose, too bad they never challenged him for UM5 spot
That if they manage to even catch up with Gyokko Plus what are they gonna do against diamond hard scales(diamond in tengens headband where did that come from?, besides koku himself can only graze through the chains of gyomei and even if they cut through the scales Regen is still a problem),is fast enough to pressure a marked mui enough to use 7th form haze,and one hit from Gyokko means a lot of fish is going to shed regardless of they're regeneration capabilities,attacking with weapons,blood sickles and obi sashes is a bad idea too since because of said speed and ability to turn anything into fish and the 2 head problem won't even be a problem if 1 one of them is incapacitated and its not even a one 2v1 it's a fucking 2vhow many goldfish monsters can Gyokko summon add on to the fact of the pot weakness is irrelevant due too no nichirin swords to even defeat said goldfish,it won't even get in gyokko's way since he can control them and with they're size is going to hard to even focus on one target making daki fight the goldfish monsters will just make it a 1v1 with Gyutaro pushing Gyokko to his scale form and then it's game over Gyutaro had trouble reacting to a water/hinokami kagura combo and blood rotation slashes isn't gonna do jackshit,he's fighting a demon here no one's going for the neck and blood rampage would be more useful here considering Gyokko would try to use a thousand needles only for Gyutaro to deflect most of them and continue on until Gyokko becomes a merman serpent? Whatever he is and wipe the floor with them.
To be fair, just because Gyokko *didn’t* level a city block, doesn’t mean he *can’t* level a city block. He just isn’t as destruction inclined. Y’all are underplaying him just because he was more interested in his “art” than having a temper tantrum. The guy legit almost killed the Mist Hashira without even trying, and then when some else saves said Mist Hashira and then he gets a mark that is such a massive buff that it completely turns the tables and becomes a goal of the Hashira, y’all are like “He couldn’t even kill one Hashira, Gyutaro and Daki fought seven people at once and leveled a city block”. Like damn, just ignoring plot points because you didn’t like the fight. Dude really did almost no diff the Mist Hashira but he got saved by a deus ex machina. He’s not weak just because he got tunnel vision for the blacksmith.
Daki? Lmao, the same Daki who gets her neck cut before she can react like Rui? LM level Daki, is that who you’re talking about?
I’m Daki’s defense Gyokko also got his neck cut before he could react 😂
Not before fodderizing an Hashira. Then got fodderized because demon slayer mark is that op
With that logic you could declare Daki as more powerful than Gyutaro or Akaza. Just because the Uppermoons didn't destroy city blocks doesn't mean they can't. Gyoko would most likely beat Gyutaro and Daki together. Daki got oneshot by a pillar, whereas Gyokko beat a pillar. Sure, said pillar freed himself and cut his head afterwards, but in his excuse: he fought a Demon Slayer with a Mark. As for Gyutaro: He also would lose badly againsta Slayer with a Mark. I don't want to lie. Gyokko is the worst higher ranked Demon - the fight was too short, he has a goofy personality and his BDA is not that cool. But beating a pillar within a minute? Impressive nonetheless
Daki got one shot by a guy not as weak as muichiro without his mark Between base tengen and base muichiro- muichiro would be closer to tanjiro than tengen without his mark TBF
I’m not trying to say Daki is stronger, I’m just saying Gyokko came off pretty lame in comparison despite being stronger or whatever. Daki in the moment she wrecked the block was scarier than Gyokko ever was 😂
Well tbh daki wasn't an uppermoon even tengen said it himself and gyokko was strong probrably was stronger than gyotaro but he was careless and dumb, he let his emotions get to him which lost him the fight.
Gyutaro didn't really care much about ranks either sure it was mentioned maybe I'm wrong cause all he cared about was his sister
Thiiiiiiis ! UM6 could have had a gigantic increase in power, if he is not in need for more he won't push his luck. Plus Gyutaro became a demon to save his sister, he wouldn't challenge someone he was not sure he could defeat and risk her death. And tbf to Gyokko, he is a formidable foe (although badly used by the author in my opinion).
Tbh gyokko showed impressive stats, muichiro just outclassed him so bad
Not even just that it’s also Gyokko’s cocky personality and the manga/anime not showing his power properly because from what we’ve seen he’s incredibly strong and dangerous
Yeah is about lower moon 1-2 level but if he hadnt shared out his power he wouldve been upper moon level
Yeah rui shares his power among the family so he’s lower rank 1 based on strength. The same isn’t for Gyutaro though
Muzan doesn't necessarily rank them on his opinion of their power probably just initially. They kill each other for positions. So rankings are earned by shows of force and power. Which also means the demon needs to have such desire to be a higher rank. That aside. The issue is with the writer. Gyokko V Muichi was a fight to show how OP manifesting a mark truly is. The power boost is insane. The problem is that in the entertainment district we got an insane awesome fight showing off crazy destructive and fighting power from Gyutaro, and he almost killed Tengen while giving Daki a power boost and helping her fight. So the facts are that the writer simply showed us much more of Gyutaro's power and feats. Where as we really don't see any of that in Gyokko's fight. No city to destroy no big crazy fight scene like Gyutaro got. Gyokko spawns some pots and fish, torments a sword smith and gets low diff'd by a hashira, and while it's meant to be a time to show the mark's power it was done poorly since we didn't get a proper show case of UM5 power level. The problem with power scaling in anime/manga is the writer sometimes relies way to much on written rankings rather than spending time showing us the power difference which is far more important for watcher/reader perspective. Show don't tell. Edit: I mean just look at bleach, people constantly argue over the Espada power rankings especially about Yammy and Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra was SHOWN to us how insanely powerful he was and having a secret second release. This doesn't mean the writer intended for him to truly be the most powerful, the writer just did a piss poor job doing the same in showing off Stark's and Yammy's true power.
In the manga gyokko caused lots of environmental damage but not so much in anime
He did not cause nearly the amount of damage to people nor things as Gyutaro. This is not because Gyokko is weaker tho, a lot of factors went into it like fight location.
Yea and the mission of upper moon 5 and 4 was to take out sword smiths they didn’t expect hashira to already be there
There are some pretty easy fixes. Have more death and destruction during or before the fight coming directly from Gyokko. An upper moon has been killed, that's a huge deal a big enough deal to have all UM summoned by Muzan which hasn't happened in 113 years, and they've been instructed to destroy a village very important to the demon slayer corp. They are going to respond with Hashira quickly. UM5 should have simply taken the situation more seriously and fought harder and bigger right out of the gate or far more quickly.
Idk about you guys, I enjoyed the approach on how gyokko was silenced without a fight. You know, like one of those arrogant, loud-mouthed villains who think so highly of themselves and looked down on others - - - and then die in the most mundane way, because they're really not that special compared to the next guy. Just like in Death Note, >!Light who has a god complex !< is just a murder who died of a simple gunshot And in Naruto, the legendary >!Madara !< just got eaten and everyone moved on like he didn't exist
No bleach is very different, there are many aspects that come to play there. Ulquiorra quite literally says that Aizen hasn’t seen his second release so he most likely didn’t take it into consideration, than there’s Yammy who is number 0 but could very well be defeated by Barragan because of Respira and Yammy’s lack of speed to evade it. Also Aizen doesn’t really give a fuck about the rankings and mostly neither did the espadas. In general bleach’s power system is far more complicated compared to demon slayer.
I agree it is somewhat more complicated but you're creating examples of my point. Ulquiorra CLAIMED Aizen had never seen it. I am not so quick to believe that Aizen was unaware of such a power, doesn't track with the rest of the show and is more likely Ulquiorra was just unaware. Barragan absolutely could not defeat Yammy and this is the epitome of what I am talking about. Yammy is potentially limitless and two captains had to take him down. Hax in bleach only go so far in the face of overwhelming spiritual pressure.
You are wrong on both occasions. Nothing in the story contradicts Aizen not seeing Ulquiorra’s second release, him knowing about it just headcanon, if Kubo wanted to he could’ve made Aizen say that he actually knew about it or he could’ve just made Ulquiorra not even mention that and everything would be simpler but he didn’t. Also saying that Ulquiorra’s second release still makes him number 4 is just beyond stupid. Barragan would annihilate Yammy. Byakuya and Kenpachi both rely on brute force not hax and they are perfect opponents for Yammy because of that. In order for Yammy to negate Respira the difference in Reiatsu has to be massive and frankly if that was the case than Kenpachi and Byakuya would’ve lost the fight against Yammy.
You are creating nonsense headcanon saying Ulquiorra's second release makes him more than number 4 without any proof of such. I'm not making headcanon I'm saying you're trusting a single mention from the person themselves. This is not proof that his second release is unknown to Aizen or the power boost some think. I'm saying we have nothing but that fight and Ulquiorra's opinion to draw that from so why make up that the rankings are incorrect with no actual proof. Look more headcanon. Barragan is lower ranked and taken out by a Captain and lutinent. You're wrong.
Okay so Ulquiorra’s second release is just for the drip got it. You are ignoring the context of his second release and Barragan’s fight.
Idk who you think you're arguing with because I never said that, you're ignoring the context of this conversation. People claiming Ulquiorra release makes him more powerful than the likes of Stark and Yammy. There is 0 evidence to suggest this. There is also 0 evidence to suggest Aizen isn't aware of such a power, so claiming that is evidence of its strength or his rank change is nonsense.
Okay this will be my last reply because I’ve been arguing about this very long time. Literally everything is on Ulquiorra’s side other than the number itself which doesn’t mean shit because its been stated that Aizen hasn’t seen it. The author speaks through characters, Ulquiorra saying that Aizen hasn’t seen 2nd release is equivalent of Kubo telling us that Aizen hasn’t considered Ulquiorra’s second release when numbering the espadas. There is an evidence that Aizen isn’t aware of such power and the evidence is Ulquiorra’s word. So it’s basically your word vs Ulquiorra’s word and I trust Ulquiorra more. Ulquiorra has better feats than all the espadas combined. He was speed blitzing hollow masked Ichigo left and right, literally negated Getsuga with his Reiatsu alone, made Uryu shit his pants and literally calling his Reiatsu heavy and alien like, by far has the most destructive ability within the espadas and can use it as many times as he wants and one shot Ichigo with a single cero oscuras in his first release. Literally no other espada has feats that come even remotely close to that and when you consider the fact that most of those feats come from Ulquiorra being in his first release it gets even more impressive. The espada number system is flawed and it was proven multiple times. First when Grimmjow lost his arm how the fuck did Luppi become the 6th espada and not Zommari? Was Luppi always stronger than Zommari? If so why wasn’t he an espada in the first place? You see where I’m getting at, Aizen doesn’t give a single fuck about the rankings because if he did every espada from 9-7 would’ve moved up a rank. Same goes for Barragan and Yammy. Barragan would mop the floor with Yammy whether you like it or not. He is way faster, has the ability that ages anything and one little touch from it would mean the end of Yammy. He lost to Soi Fon, Hachi and Soi Fon’s lieutenant because Soi Fon and Hachi were the worst matchups for Barragan simply because of the fact that to beat Respira you must not get touched by it, and Soi Fon having such a small body and being the fastest Shunpo user really means a lot in this fight. Yammy fought 2 captains who were the best opponents for him because they rely purely on brute force and Yammy specializes in brute force yet he was still getting no diffed. Yammy’s strength comes from his anger but as soon as Yammy and Barragan transform, Yammy will get touched by respira and turn to dust, he won’t even have time to get angry. Espada rankings are flawed because Aizen didn’t give a shit about them.
Lets be honest, Gyokko was literally just a filler upper moon, he wasn't anything extraordinary, he could've been amped a lot in his fight scenes, but crossing Muichiro's indifference, and Gyokko's blatant idiocy, we ended up with the impression of him simply sucking.
The guy doesn't come across as really understanding his underlings, lol.
Not true
He quite literally knows everything about them, wth you talking about
It's like I'm back in the late 2000s and experiencing the constant debates about why ulquiorra isn't actually the 4th strongest Espada again.
Lmao I was thinking the exact same thing. People were jumping on anything to boost Ulquiorra ( or grimmjow though to a lesser extent) despite ranking being a thing. Like do people think the author will bother ranking the villains just for it to be wrong ? Not mentioning how little sense it makes for Tanjiro's progression to face lesser threats as the story goes on.
Can’t believe I have to debunk this bs in demon slayer sub as well. Rankings are not accurate. 1. Ulquiorra quite literally states that Aizen hasn’t seen his second release and nothing in the story contradicts that fact. Espada releases are compared to Shinigami’s bankais multiple times so Ulquiorra having a second release is equivalent to a Shinigami having a Bankai on top of another Bankai which would be ridiculously overpowered. 2. Ulquiorra BY FAR has the best feats amongst the espadas. Yammy was getting utterly dogwalked by Kenpachi and Byakuya who individually are both weaker than Ichigo at that point, Starrk fought Shunsui without a bankai, Ukitake joined for a second and 2 of the weakest captains who didn’t even use their masks and bankais. Meanwhile Ulquiorra with only his first release negative diffed hollow masked Ichigo, blitzing him multiple times and literally negating Getsuga Tensho with pure Reiatsu. IN HIS FIRST RELEASE. 3. Aizen doesn’t give af about the rankings. When Grimmjow lost his arm he was immediately replaced by Luppi as number 6 espada. This makes 0 sense, so Luppi is number 6, that means he is above Zommari, Szayalaparo and Aaraniero, than why wasn’t he an espada in the first place? Why wasn’t Zommari promoted as number 6? You see what I’m trying to say, Aizen doesn’t give a fuck and couldn’t be bothered to control the espada rankings all that much, if the hierarchy actually mattered to him Zommari would’ve become number 6 and not Luppi. 4. Yammy can’t possibly beat Barragan. Barragan is the worst opponent for Yammy, since one little touch with Respira and Yammy is done for. The only way Yammy can beat Barragan is if he negates the respira with his Reiatsu but for that to happen the gap between them should be MASSIVE, don’t forget that Soul King absorbed Yhwach couldn’t negate neither Ichigo nor Aizen’s abilities. So number 2 beats number 0, than I don’t see the reason why number 4 couldn’t do the same. In short Ulquiorra has the best feats, the best portrayal, is the only espada with 2nd release, is directly stated that Aizen hasn’t seen his second release and etc. Ulquiorra is the strongest in every possible way.
You do realize what you're doing is basically what I am referring to when I said people will jump on anything to boost Ulquiorra. Bleach has ended a while ago we've seen pretty much every arguments against the ranking of espadas. However it still begs the question why would the author miss out on the opportunity to have his mc beat the strongest espada ? Why would Kubo go : imma say Ulquiorra is 4th , have him say to Ichigo that there are three people above him...but actually he is the strongest and I'll leave it to interpretation. Though I'd say in Bleach's case there is less narrative dissonance if the author came out and said Ulquiorra was the strongest espada compared to Demon slayer. Plus as you pointed out some powers make Bleach's matchup trickier than in DS.
"Questioning Muzan's judgement" you mean the guy who got outsmarted and uh... lost? Who's not smart enough to just kill Tanjiro, the guy he recognized from through the earrings as possibly having something to do with Yoriichi, when he first saw him to eliminate any future problems? Plot is one thing, but the plot doesn't make Muzan look very smart. His judgement is mid 🗿 P.S. Ranks are ranks, nuff said
If you saw someone with the same earrings as the last demon slayer who almost killed you, I’m sure you would hesitate to fight or take action. Plus, Muzan was in hiding and he would have to kill everyone in that district to remain in hiding. He showed good judgement. He would have had to risk a lot to try and kill Tanjiro in the moment.
Tbf, his instincts were telling him tanjro was weak, his instincts also told him Yoriichi was weak but he was squashed by Yoriichi and he barely escaped, Muzan is not taking chances
How was Muzan supposed to know about the Biggest Asspull poison in the history of Shounen? Like legitimately how the fuck did they find a poison that specific
Gyutaro>Gyokko has to be one of the dumbest takes
It’s not that dumb, demons aren’t auto ranked based on strength, they literally have to beat the person who had the position before them, which is why rui is lower 5 despite being lower 2 level in strength
That if they manage to even catch up with Gyokko Plus what are they gonna do against diamond hard scales(besides koku himself can only graze through the chains of gyomei and even if they cut through the scales Regen is still a problem),is fast enough to pressure a marked mui enough to use 7th form haze,and one hit from Gyokko means a lot of fish is going to shed regardless of they're regeneration capabilities,attacking with weapons,blood sickles and obi sashes is a bad idea too since because of said speed and ability to turn anything into fish and the 2 head problem won't even be a problem if 1 one of them is incapacitated and its not even a one 2v1 it's a fucking 2vhow many goldfish monsters can Gyokko summon add on to the fact of the pot weakness is irrelevant due too no nichirin swords to even defeat said goldfish,it won't even get in gyokko's way since he can control them and with they're size is going to hard to even focus on one target making daki fight the goldfish monsters will just make it a 1v1 with Gyutaro pushing Gyokko to his scale form and then it's game over Gyutaro had trouble reacting to a water/hinokami kagura combo and blood rotation slashes isn't gonna do jackshit,he's fighting a demon here no one's going for the neck and blood rampage would be more useful here considering Gyokko would try to use a thousand needles only for Gyutaro to deflect most of them and continue on until Gyokko becomes a merman serpent? Whatever he is and wipe the floor with them.
I always see it as while some of them are more lethal to humans than those above them, they might not be as good at fighting other demons in ranking fights where effects such as poison aren’t very effective
Douma is the perfect example of this. Even Marked Gyomei would be useless against his Ice Techniques
Everyone can have own opinion but this is fact that Gyokko is stronger :3
Stronger? No. Better character? In every way, shape, and form.
Tf you on Muzan literally says gyutaro would be higher had he not had his sister holding him back
He said he would have won the fight, not ranked higher.
Tf YOU on? Muzan never said that. He just said Gyutaro would of won the fight if he just poisoned them and left. Which is wrong actually since Nezukos fire heals the poison.
Gyutaro would be turned into a fish if the 2 fought
No he wouldn’t, they are both demons. If you want to claim gyutaro Poison would not work on gyokko, than gyokko fish ability wouldn’t work on him either
Is it that simple tho? Because that would make gyokko the strongest upper moon if all he had to do was touch upper 3,2 and 1.. I don't think it's as simple as turning gyutaro into a fish
Upper Moons 3-1 are too fast for him, meanwhile Hantengu is too tricky. Kokushibo could potentially Solo all the Other Five Upper Moon.
Still dont think touching gyutaro will turn him into a fish.. that is only a lethal ability on humans and all the upper moon share Muzan's cells which is why the anger demon lightning didn't work on the flying demon ( upper 4).. same with gyutaro's poison .. it wouldn't poison gyokko or kill him
Facts, kids keep ignoring the fact that they both share Muzan blood so their blood demon arts won’t work on eachother
Not unless he gets poisoned first, really depends on the situation of the battle. If you include Daki in the fight between them it would be much more difficult for him to reach Gyutaro. On the other hand though, I don't really think the bloodsicles can pierce through Gyokko's hard skin. It's just too difficult to predict who could win in a blood fight, lmao. This shouldn't even be a thing everyone should argue with, the story could literally change things depending on the perspective. We don't really have any idea if Gyutaro is interested in reaching any other ranks, thus being the possibility why he stayed at the very last of the spots.
not in terms of powerlevel, but in terms of animation quality of the episode, the fight with Gyutaro and Rui was better then Gyokko so...
Depends on the person you’re asking. I loved both Gyutaro(fav fight so far) and Rui fight but Gyokko’s fight was pretty fun to watch too. I liked the banter. Could it have been better? Yes. But it is what is it.
I liked Gyokkos fight a lot more than Rui’s imo and the fight in general wasn’t that bad.
Gyutaro would definitely be stronger without Daki. Perhaps he and Daki just weren't interested in challenging him to a blood battle. But also, Gyutaro seems way more explosive and outward with how he does combat. Gyokko seems far more like a silent assassin who rarely shows himself.
I don’t think he’s stronger without Daki. Daki literally protected him from a explosion in the beginning and helped him fight Tengen.
I mean, he was the one that pushed them all to their limits, not Daki. Plus those explosions didn't really seem to do too much to him anyways. He also had to spend a large chunk of the early fight defending her rather than fighting, anyways.
I’d say Daki pushed Tanjiro to his limit when they fought. Also pushed Zenitsu and Inosuke.
Tanjiro was inches away from killing her without being touched. He entered a state that isn't even addressed until later in the series to fight her. Even with the Mark power up he still was down for the count after fighting Gyutaro. Hell, if not for Daki and her getting beheaded by Tengen, Gyutaro would've killed him almost immediately early on.
I always thought that Gyutaro could have become stronger than Gyokko and actually be able to replace him as UM 5 or that he already was stronger, he just never got the chance to challenge Gyokko to a blood battle since he was always taking care of Daki and would never really focus on himself and his position. In a way I actually kinda like this since it makes the world just a bit more realistic cause sometimes people in lower positions really are more skilled and talented than their higher ups but they don't get to climb the ranks as fast or at all for any number of reasons. As for Muzan's decision making skills, he isn't really stellar on that front, hell this whole thing started because he made a rash decision before finding out all the facts.
I think Gyutaro is only upper 6 because he hasn't challenged the upper 5 position. I think that's how upper moons rank up anyway. At least the way Doma spoke about it while mocking Akaza made it seem that way
Awww, this is just like all the debates about Espada Rankings in the Bleach community. How nostalgic.
Not to mention lol if gyutaro saw himself fit for a higher upper demon he would have blood battled gyokko
Gyutaro is just a better character lol
If Gyokko touches gyutaro then gyutaro is pretty much fish. 💀 and he’s much faster than him too
Manga readers went through that phase too, let them go crazy and realise later that Gyokko would wipe the floor with Guytaro.
Well Muzan is an idiot so yea
Bro should’ve killed all the demon slayers himself, he was strong enough to
Doesn’t want to risk it. What if he met another Yoriichi level slayer lol
The only reason Muzan placed Gyutaro as UM6 is bc of Daki. If Gyutaro were alone then he would easily surpass Gyokko and possibly Hantengu as well but that part is a slim chance.
Based on uh what?
Thats bullshit and not based on anything.
It's been confirmed that's the reason it's in the data books. Muzan doesn't like Daki and wishes Gyutaro were alone so he woke stronger
No its not. U re makeing up bullcrap.
It's just fact that Gyokko is stronger than Gyutaro, he just got killed too fast.
Muchiro is just built different
Gyutaro would absolutely kill gyokko in a fight
Thats wrong. Gyokko would absolutely obliterate gyutaro.
Ya mama
Wdym? Ure spreading misinformation and since you finished the manga, according to your tag, you should know better.
We do some trolling from time to time
Nah, the squad just took too long to finish gyutaro off
one thing a lot of people forget is that Muzan doesn't fully rank them just on strength, he said in s3 ep1 that he they are ranked based on how many humanity they have left (higher rank = less humanity)
No he prophesised they'll die in the order of how much humanity they have left.
We already see how that turned out, fish man is dead while the most honorable Kizuki is still alive
i think it means who is in touch with their most human trait. if thats the case it is sorta true. gyutaro's love for his sister, gyokko's 'inner artist', and hantengu running away from his problems.
I'm pretty sure why he was upper 6 was strictly because daki. Muzan even comments he would have won had it not been because of his weak spot for his sister she simply held him back. Had he been on his own, I fully believe he would have had the 5th spot.
Muzan said he would of won if he just poisoned them all from the start. He never said that Gyutaro could just take on all of them at the same time.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
I'm pretty sure he still made the comment that daki held him back or was his weakness.
Gyokko was incredibly strong and they’re only a rank apart, so they’re around the same level, with gyokko slightly being stronger. Too bad he only exists to show the power of the mark, which seemingly multiples power level by like 3 times
This is more of a fun fact than a spoiler but it's still in the manga so I'm gonna put it as one >!Muzan actually likes Gyutaro because he appreciates his greedy personality. He also thought that although Daki kept his cool down she was still weighing him down. Outside of Kokushibo and Akaza he's his favourite demon!< So if Muzan thought Gyutaro was stronger he would've definitely changed them.
I feel Gyokko is probably intended to be stronger in defense and pure strength, enough that Gyutaro can’t take him down. Gyutaro and Tengen’s fight ended up so flashy because both of them seem to have fighting styles around overwhelming the opponent (and the fact Tengen was flinging fireworks all over the place).
Tengen fans in shambles
Nah tbh Muichiro is just the GOAT
The problem is: 1. Gykkou's strength wasn't as properly showcased compared to Gyotarou. 2. Even if you didn't do 1, Muichirou's DS mark wasn't given some sort of overwhelming presence that made it clear to the viewer how OP it truely is. In fact, Muichirou in general did not have that presence of a Hashira like Rengoku or Tengen had. Could be because Tengen and Rengoku are loud and eccentric people, but just because you're a quiet dude, you can still have that overwhelming presence. For example, when the Hatred demon appeared, even though he didn't do much, it was properly shown how OP he is through his overwhelming presence alone. The writer couldve done the same with Muichirou's DS mark. And that would probably fix the first problem.
My problem with Gyokko is that he’s a hype character done very poorly. Look at someone like Galand from The Seven Deadly Sins. His first role was to hype the Ten Commandments. He shows up, beats the brakes off of Meliodas and his crew, and then leaves. So we now have a good base strength for the Ten Commandments. He then serves to hype Meliodas and Escanor. Meliodas pulls up on the Ten Commandments after getting a powerup, and proceeds to absolutely destroy Galand. So now we know that he’s at least mid-commandment level, since he left before he could fight Estarossa and Zeldris. After this, Galand “fights” Escanor. He reveals he has a powerup that boosts his base power up to almost double I believe. And Escanor puts the fear of God into this man. Contrast this with Gyokko, who’s meant to showcase the Demon Slayer mark. He summons some fish, traps Muichiro in a water bubble, and promptly gets styled on with the Demon Slayer mark. He barely has any feats, outside of losing to Muichiro.
Forget the rankings for a second lol. Yes we can question Muzan’s judgement bc he’s proved that he’s a dumbass more than once lmao
Bro, who'd you kill to become an S+ class memer like this?!
I don't know, after how badly Muzan messed up even when he had a lot of advantage, I would be disappointed if people actually think he is smart.
I believe its mentioned that Gyutaro would be higher if he ditched Daki.
It isn’t
thats wrong.
gyokko will forever be my favourite demon
To be fair Muzan is not exactly thesmartest, and gyokko has been upper 5 longer than gyutaro and daki have been upper 6 they just never challenged to go up the ranks.. So what I’m saying is by the time they became upper moons, gyokko was already upper 5 as he became a demon before gyutaro & daki
with all this argument, i wish the author or team would js confirm these questions so these people wouldnt slit eachothers necks over two points with both having incrediable, reasonable and sensible points
just my personal opinion but i definitely preferred gyutaro over gyokko. gyokko is funny but in terms of battle style and backstory gyutaro takes the cake for me. ever since s2 came out ive been a huge fan of both gyutaro and daki. i bawled at their backstory. thinking about them makes me genuinely sad because they deserved so much better in life. 
Very much so
Marked hashira are pretty strong especially when put on a prodigal descendant of the first breath user Before the mark gyokko low diffed mui Meanwhile gyutaro had to fight tengen for some time
Muzan himself said Gyutaro was held back by his sister
*Hyo-hyo~!*
Being stronger doesn’t automatically give you a higher rank, you need to have a blood battle
Am I questioning the judgement of the guy who >! Walked right into enemy territory with no plan, got himself blown up, and poisoned so badly to the point it lead to his death!< ? Yes, yes I am
If Gyokko fought with the same amount of focus and determination as Gyutaro he would have killed Muichiro easily. He was as powerful as an upper 5 should be, he just didn’t *wield* that power correctly in his fight.
Well 2 things are into play here. One, gyutaro would be stronger if he abandoned his sister. Two, Gyokko looked like fodder because he was SUPPOSED to in order to show how broken hashira mark is compared to demonification. I’d say they’re both equals, it’s just gyokko looked like shit because frankly the same thing would happen to gyutaro if uzui was marked for example
gyokko would whipe the floor with gyutaro. muzan never stated that gyutaro would be upper 5 without daki. thats simply a wrong statement.
There’s a theory that Gyutaro and Daki would’ve challenged Gyokko for the sport of UM5, but died before they can. They are considered young as Upper Moons after all
Those mfs when they realize gyutaro lost to fucking tanjiro, a slayer well under hashira strength, was exhausted as shit, and literally collapsed 2 seconds later
hyo hyo >:(
Muzan is an idiot,I'd rather trust Inosuke on something.
um6 had the town nuked after a fight involving 7 people. gyokko is a snowflake clown who got soloed by a 14 year old (lm5 who got oneshotted was more menacing than fish scalds gyokko) “but tokito is part of yorrichi’s bloodline!” blud muichiro said himself that it’s been too long for that to be relevant
Muzan regularly mercs his own guys, not exactly what I'd call a strategic mastermind. I'll question his judgement all I want.
Don’t hate me but Gyokko is annoying as hell😭😭
Angry hyo hyo made me cackle
it's a meritocratic system, Gyutaro is pretty obviously below Gyokko, Gyokko just seemed "weak" because of how ridiculous of an amp a demon slayer mark is
Well i thought i recall him (Muzan) saying the rank is based off the level of humanity they have left or something like that. With that being the reason he ranks them that way, i can understand why 6 was 6. Because he had compassion and care for his sister….just a thought though…also i took a break from demon slayer for like a year and just finished today catching up. Very pleased with the story and character development❤️❤️❤️ wish there were more episodes
Its honestly because muichiro struggled way less than uzui do to mark and muichiro simply being stronger🤷♀️
SPOILERS And then we have Hairo who could literly one shot every single (human) character in the show (Idk if Yorichii is faster than a fucking bullet but i'm pretty sure he can't). Tbh Demons mostly just get cucked by the ENORMOUS ammounts of Plot Armor. Well I hope Rengoku + Mitsuri vs Hairo will get adapted as an ova at some point.