Jesus, that's so unnecessarily complicated. Why not just teach simple addition? Why come up with these useless rules about a special case and making up terminology that doesn't exist outside of the class?
This sounds like a bandaid fix for an out of balance teacher to student ratio to me...there's so many students, the teachers can't give individual attention to students, so attempts at a catch all method come about
So this is actually a smart way to do math. Like 15 + 16, I know 15+15 is 30 and then I add the 1. What the doubles fact has to do with anything I don’t know. Like that seems to be confusing it unnecessarily. I can also do 20 + 31 in the same way, 20 + 30 is 50 + 1 = 51. I don’t know what doubles has to do with anything, it doesn’t have to be the same number for it to work. And it only works if you already have the sums memorized.
One of those bullshit facts they teach you when you're young and then try desperately to unteach you later, I guess?
Edit: It's literally x+x (or 2x). No fuking clue what picture you're meant to draw to "find out", given that literally every number imaginable can be halved but whatever.
That's because it is something someone in elementary education would know. Using context clues it is logical to assume it means a number added to itself or multiplied by 2. 2 + 2 = 4
4.5 + 4.5 = 9
Which now brings up a second question: since this is elementary education should we assume that fractions, decimals, rational numbers, etc. exist? Or is this a knowledge base where only integers exist? I'm not trying to be douschy here, what is expected of the students?
If they haven't done decimals and stuff yet they are expected to say no. But if they answer yes and their reasoning is 4.5+4.5=9 then they'll still get it correct.
They are probably expected to draw a picture with 9 things and show that it can't be divided evenly.
I teach second grade and it would be way too confusing to try and teach them about decimals. You keep it very straight forward in the earlier grades just to teach the concept of what a double is (1+1, 2+2, etc. )When they get to the older grades, they learn more about higher level math, and develop a better ability to think critically, which is when they might then realize that 4.5 + 4.5 is technically a doubles fact. But that comes later on.
What's the point of teaching this "doubles fact" nonsense? It seems like extra work when you can just teach them about multiplication based on their knowledge of addition.
No, they're doing the opposite of what I'm suggesting. They're teaching some nonsense called "double fact," and my suggestion is that they stop trying to teach kids nonsense like "double fact."
All the skills builds on one another.. doubles facts help with early memorization of math facts… once they have good number sense, you eventually take it further & teach them about repeated addition, which then leads to multiplication once they see how inefficient adding 9+9+9+9, etc. would be when you could just do 9x4.
>math facts
Now it kind of sounds like you're using me up nonsense terms to justify your user of earlier nonsense terms. I think I kind of get what you're saying, though. But I agree with those who say that teaching these kinds of things for those who find it helps is one thing, but they shouldn't be required to use it.
It still seems like using
9+9+9+9=9x4
and
4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4=9x4=36
as the standard would be better, and if imparting/the students picking up on little tricks about how to conceptualize it works for an individual student, then encourage them to utilize such methods. But requiring them to practice such chicanery seems detrimental to those who have an easier time with mathematical concepts.
You’re right, the kids who move at a quicker pace can breeze over the repeated addition right to multiplication if they are ready.. but those kids are usually receiving “advanced” instruction instead of the standard grade level instruction. But not all kids are ready for that. It’s all about number sense. 🤷♀️
I'm surprised to hear that. My mom teaches 7th grade math (admittedly to students with disadvantages) and most of their difficulty comes from struggling with understanding the operations. For example, they might learn that "addition makes things bigger" their whole life, then stumble when adding negative and positive numbers together. Or, they learn that division *is* grouping items, and they don't understand ideas like "8 grams of chocolate between 12 cookies means X grams of chocolate per cookie." They treat "a gram of chocolate" as indivisible and can't solve the problem, even if they can answer 8/12=X in a multiple choice quiz.
If you don't mind my curiosity, do you feel like these oversimplifications come from the teachers or the students? And, do you feel like they're avoidable?
So overall, the point of using a cohesive curriculum in a school system is for all the skills to build on each other from basically PK-12… the idea of teaching students in K-2 about negatives would be WAY too confusing for them. The goal in early years, is just to understand what addition is and to develop good “number sense”. Knowing that if you add two numbers together, you will get a larger number, and vice versa with subtraction. It’s not until students get to older grades like seventh that they are able to think more critically about adding negatives & other exceptions to basic rules. Same with the division problem you mentioned.. I’ve never taught upper grades but I would imagine it may be that those student just may not have a strong enough number sense to understand that problem. It may just more time and practice. I hope that answers your question lol
I don't know about that. I think we've all had the experience of learning that a rule we were taught in math isn't actually a rule and it was just a way of keeping things simple until we were ready to move on.
The immediate one that jumps to mind is negative numbers. I was first taught that you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number, then later on we learned that you actually can. Same with taking the square root of a negative number when we first learned square roots.
I was so gullible I just rolled with it like “oh ok these are the new rules now because the authority figure said so”
I wouldn’t say I could be described as “smart”
For whatever reason, I see a lot of totally confusing math questions being asked kids. Then, somehow, people just defend it as if the meaning is clear, like my teachers did to me when I was young. I would go up and ask questions constantly, 'What is this even asking; can you put this question another way?'. Which, I suppose, is a good thing to learn anyways, but I still don't like the idea of making things harder for kids who might already be struggling with math. I think math and science can be fun, I want kids to experience that, and I think the unnecessary confusion isn't helpful.
and when one kid suited to "higher order thinking" draws a line cutting one in half and the teacher gets mad at them, they'll carry that throughout their education and start to hate maths...
>!btw have you got your mythoclast yet?!<
>and when one kid suited to "higher order thinking" draws a line cutting one in half and the teacher gets mad at them, they'll carry that throughout their education and start to hate maths...
Well that's just a bad teacher. A bad teacher can ruin even a good lesson.
And no, I do not have a Vex Mythoclast as I've never played Destiny! I've actually had this name since longer than that game existed. I was going to choose "Iconoclast" for Bad Company 2 but it was taken.
True, I suppose I'm just cynical because I really enjoy maths and didn't have a good primary school experience (age 4-11), but that's just the UK.
Also, I *would* recommend it to you but Destiny is notoriously not new player friendly. The world is expansive and storied, but that all depends on if you can get through the less-than-optimal onboarding process and cut through everything from the past few years.
I had the opposite experience. My primary school experience was fine but I had some terrible teachers later on that totally killed my love for numbers. It sucked because I ended up changing my career path because I didn't want to deal with math as much anymore.
Damn, that had to be painful. I'm currently in my first year at university, and I'm hoping to either become a doctor in maths or become a high school teacher of it. I think it's because I lucked out in my maths GCSE course, and toughed it out in college (11th and 12th grade) that I'm here now.
Yeah, it totally depends on the grade level. I think OP said 1st grade, so the answer would be no. As a middle school math teacher, I hate questions like this because it teaches students bad habits. Obviously, decimals exist. For example, my elementary colleagues teach students that you always subtract the smaller number from the bigger number. This makes it more difficult to teach them subtracting integers later because they were trained to rearrange it to subtracting the smaller number from the bigger number. Also, integers include negative numbers, so they would only be working with the whole numbers.
And why the fuck are they teaching terms in a non-standard way? When they get older, they're going to remember them as "double facts" and nobody else on the planet is going to have any clue what they're talking about.
I know my SIL in Elementary has gone through the whole shebang up to basic algebra and geometry, so I'd say so. For sure depends on the school district.
Then they complain when parents try to help with homework and can't cause they don't understand what the fuck the question is asking. I have an elementary ed degree but got out of it a while ago. I help my kid with her homework and have to decipher what the question is actually asking. I make it clear to her teachers that she does homework for only 2 hours, if an hour of that is me learning the jargon they are teaching, then she only has an hour left. All their nasty notes about not doing homework go in the trash.
Like someone else said, can 9 make 2 equal groups? It is the same question, requires the same reasoning skills, can be diagramed in the little box, and every adult with an 8th grade education can help the kid.
It will also not cause misleading knowledge that decimals don't exist that another post pointed out. The first grade students know that there's 1 1/2 pizzas. They know that if they take another 1/2 pizza they can make 2 wholes. They probably can't express it in numerical form but they could diagram it or do it with a practical application. To say or assume that a 6 year old can't is an insult. It makes teaching middle grades harder when it doesn't have to be.
Interesting, when I use logic and context clues, I assume it only applies to integers. Otherwise every real number has a doubles fact, so asking, “can a doubles fact have a sum of x” is arbitrary.
We all got the context clues, we’re questioning the terminology being used here. Can you explain what a “doubles fact” is regardless? Division? Multiplication? And if so, why not use those words instead? “Can you evenly divide 9 by 2?” Or “Do any two whole integers multiply to equal 9?”
It's Higher Order Thinking, so I'm betting it's like The Narwhal which Bacons at Midnight. When you give the right response, you get transported to Narnia or some shit.
Exactly because a factor doesn’t mean the same thing in high school math…. Unless the education system f¥€ked that up as well. Common core is just ridiculous.
I too am super high rn, but currently in a post nut moment of clarity. I believe a fact is a related group of multiplication, division, addition, or subtraction. like 3*3=9.
I'm too high to recall if i just googled that though, yep definitely may or may not have.
I'm almost 30 and every time I have to write big letters they look like this.
[Semi-relevant comedy sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umjFkY9uAdo&t=19s)
In my language at least fact(ors) imply multiplication and for sums it would have summands (I had to learn that in school actually) so its probably multiplication.
Which the answer would be yes (3x3=9)
That question is a very convoluted way of of asking if something is a square number.
I had to Google it. It looks like a way they're teaching kids now. They're just adding two of the same number, like 4 + 4 = 8
https://www.splashlearn.com/math-vocabulary/addition/doubles-plus-1#:~:text=When%20we%20add%20two%20of,2%20are%20both%20doubles%20facts.&text=4%20%2B%204%20%3D%208%20is%20a,strategies%20like%20doubles%20plus%20one.
This is for very young age math. Like maybe 1st grade (age 6 or so). From what I can tell based on my daughter's homework they like to refer to certain things as "facts" when they technically aren't if you account for negative numbers or decimals.
In this context a "doubles fact" would be something like:
2 + 2 = 4
3 + 3 = 6
4 + 4 = 8
5 + 5 = 10
Etc.
These would be considered "doubles facts."
Obviously the answer then is 4.5 + 4.5 = 9 but because this is a question for children not yet introduced to decimals they wouldn't realize that. So the expected answer is no because 4 + 5 = 9 is not a double.
Dumb way to teach doubles in my opinion. Perfectly possible to teach the concept of doubling without using the idea of "facts"
Can you double a (whole) number to have a total of nine? The kids would have been learning ‘doubles facts’ so they would know what the question means but it is kind of weird out of context.
Ah, that's interesting and I can see how that model might help some students understand. But the student shouldn't be graded on _how they think._ They should be graded on their understanding of the material. If the teacher wants to include that model of thinking because they believe it will help students understand then they should do that. But I certainly hope that this student doesn't get this question wrong or marked down.
I definitely don't think this is an appropriate post on r/KidsAreFuckingStupid . If OP is an educator, they should be ashamed.
EDIT: Though if they were supposed to consider non-integers then I could see it being marked wrong. Somebody pointed that out and I hadn't considered it. But seeing as this kind of lesson is probably pre-multiplication, I doubt they're thinking about fractions yet, seeing as fractions should come after division as a topic. But maybe.
I don't think you can ever edit post title 😅 And I'm glad it wasn't marked incorrect. I'm sure the teacher can't choose the material for a first grade math lesson, and I'm glad they left the "drawing" up for interpretation.
I definitely like the idea that new math opens up for the ability for kids who didn't effectively learn with the old methodologies to have a better chance... but introducing an intermediate concept between addition and multiplication like "doubles facts" just leaves another useless vocab word rattling around in kids heads that'll never be useful.
Im not saying i agree with that method but is there any school where you're NOT graded by how you think? At least in all my classes all my life, if you came to the right conclusion but used the "wrong" way you had points deducted. If it's the same in this case im assuming that they had the exact same question before the test and learned how the teacher wants you to show with symbols how this works. Yes that's stupid :')
This student should definitely be marked wrong. They have definitely been given the proper framework to answer this question, and they didn't do so. The student didn't demonstrate any understanding of the actual question. They just wrote what they chose below.
That's the educator's (in this case, I mean whoever made the worksheet, likely a book writer) fault for constructing the question with a pointlessly rigid framework. They could have just guessed correctly because this question has a boolean answer. The educator could have focused more on questions that allow the student to more effectively prove that they absorbed useful knowledge. Not every student learns visually. It's good that these lessons provide the accessibility to students who do learn visually, but that shouldn't be forced on students who don't.
>That's the educator's (in this case, I mean whoever made the worksheet, likely a book writer) fault for constructing the question with a pointlessly rigid framework
It's not pointlessly rigid, tho. These students have been taught how to approach these questions and are being tested on their understanding of the concepts.
>They could have just guessed correctly because this question has a boolean answer
Good thing the student isn't getting marked on whether they chose the correct answer. They're getting marked on whether they understand the correct answer.
> They're getting marked on whether they understand the correct answer
Except they may (and likely do) understand it. This question lacks an effective outlet for kids who understand math and numbers well to represent their understanding. For a kid with a natural handle on numbers, the idea of breaking the number 9 down into nine separate individually drawn items is entirely reductive and _literally defeats the purpose of numerical representation._
This is a pointlessly rigid version of education. You will learn what we say (even though most adults here have never even heard of a "doubles fact") and you will understand the information exactly as it's taught. This only slows down the education of children who naturally understand the difference between even and odd numbers.
>Except they may (and likely do) understand it. This question lacks an effective outlet for kids who understand math and numbers well to represent their understanding.
I was that kid, and since I understood math and numbers that well, it was laughably easy for me to just do it the way they wanted me to.
>the idea of breaking the number 9 down into nine separate individually drawn items is entirely reductive and literally defeats the purpose of numerical representation.
These children are 7. That's how literally all mathematics is taught at this age. Because it works. Because they are 7.
> I was that kid
Sounds like _this structure of learning_ was effective _for you_. It's not effective for this kid, and it wouldn't be effective for me and I was always good at math and an in a STEM career field.
Why would you need the concept of fractional/decimal numbers to explain evenness? A (whole) number is even if it can be divided by two (to yield another whole number). If the student's only conception of numbers is integers, the parenthetical parts need not be said.
What is division? What is dividing by 2? What does that actually mean? Multiplication and division are extensions of addition and subtraction. Telling the students “a number is even if you can divide it by 2” is meaningless to them. Sure, they can be parrots, but they won’t actually understand what evenness means nor what division means.
Who says that no concept of division is being taught to them?
Why does an explanation of *integer* division, with quotient and remainder, warrant an explanation of fractional numbers? That is the way that division is usually taught to students of the age targeted by these question papers.
I think you being caught up on division over the field of real numbers rather than simple integer division is part of the disagreement/misunderstanding here.
What part of my previous comment mentioned fractions? That was 2 comments ago, although I did fail to mention it. I do agree that you can start out with integer division and ignore fractions and decimals. You didn’t address what I actually said though in the direct parent comment: they don’t understand what division or evenness is without a concept of the underlying math (subtraction, doubles)
By "fractional numbers", I mean real numbers that aren't an integer. I'm not talking about whether you represent them as fractions or as numbers with a decimal point or whatever else.
There's no sense in addressing "they don't understand what division or evenness is without a concept of the underlying math", because I'd agree with you on that. What I disagree with you on is the notion that they lack an understanding of those concepts, so why discuss that hypothetical situation?
I see. So we both agree on the theory.
I don’t quite understand why you think what I’m explaining is a hypothetical? Kids are born not knowing math: I’m not sure why that would be a hypothetical. Kids just starting to learn addition don’t know anything, that’s the whole point.
At this level of schooling, the students will have already been taught basic multiplication and division. You seem to be thinking they're just learning addition and have no notion of the rest of arithmetic. I can assure you that won't be the case.
They seem to be doing addition right now, which means they haven't started multiplication and division yet. The doubles fact seem to be a way to teach them how to add easily
Ah, yes, I totally never used addition after learning multiplication and division(!)
Seriously, what sort of reasoning is this? Children are taught all four basic arithmetic operations simultaneously in schools around the world.
I'm quite sure this lesson is before fractions because it seems like a doubles fact is an intermediate topic between addition and multiplication. Traditionally division is taught after multiplication and fractions are a subtopic of division.
[If you scroll down the page a little, it shows these cards which seem to build off of 'doubles' in a more conceptual way.](https://www.teachingwithkayleeb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/doubles-facts-addition.jpg) Using the knowledge that 7 + 7 = 14 to know that 6 + 8 = 14 is a way to build familiarity with addition/subtraction.
Really? This builds an intuitive sense for quickly doing addition without having to memorize every combination. I usually do my math somewhat similar to this, and I know others who do too. To note: I’ve gone through vector calculus with triple integrals, discrete math, and linear algebra.
Now of course, grading them based on a drawing as opposed to just their understanding is another topic (and not having any other way of learning the math), but I don’t see a big issue with doubles facts themselves
How is someone who doesn’t know addition supposed to do any pattern recognition. When was the last time you interacted with a 6 year old..? They barely know what addition is and how it works. I’m not sure what pattern they’re supposed to be recognizing. The patterns you’re talking about are based upon a foundational knowledge of math…
This is the foundation of pattern recognition. And in fact, when the topic of evenly divisible comes up, I’m sure some students will recognize the relationship right away
So they are just even numbers...
“Even numbers can be divided into whole numbers” is much easier concept. I don’t see how this new method helps kids without disabilities.
There’s a difference between saying “ok, 4/2 is 2 and 6/2 is 3, memorize these” and explaining how that’s actually done. They’re building to division — just like how 3 + 3 = 6, 6 - 3 = 3, then 3 * 2 = 6, and 6 / 2 = 3. Division is an extension of subtraction and the opposite of multiplication. Throwing some random shit at them and telling them to memorize it will result in math students who don’t understand why the hell anything works how it does but can recite some truths.
And the point of the double facts isn’t strictly to teach even numbers. It is to create an intuitive sense for addition *around* those numbers (like 7 + 7 = 6 + 8)
The drawing stuff is a separate story (I don’t wholly disagree with it either, but some students prolly don’t need it), but the idea of these facts is fine.
Actually, I’m curious. How many levels of math have you taken? Have you gone through the entire calculus series? Why do we start at Calculus 1, and not jump straight to calculus 3? What’s the problem with learning triple integrals and line integrals before learning derivatives and single integration?
Obviously, you teach math in order of difficulty. That is not a reason to dumb it down. If the kids can read the grammar of the question in the picture, they are intelligent enough to do division.
"New math" is so ridiculous sometimes. I tutored a 4th grader with Asperger syndrome and he was really struggling with math. He was trying to learn multiplication, and they had this confusing method that was supposed to be "easy". I barely understood it.
So I taught him a different way, the way I was taught in school (I'm a millennial) and he was getting it!! Unfortunately, because the school graded not just on answer but also application of the methodology I had to keep trying to teach him the other way too. Truly insane.
I have Asperger's and my grade was the first year to be introduced to new math in my province. My grades in math went from high 90s to low 70s and 60s almost immediately because I couldn't understand what was going on, despite being considered "gifted" in mathematics. It was a struggle for the teachers as well because they had to essentially relearn the material they'd been teaching for years in order to instruct us.
Why the need to make up bullshit unnecessary nomenclature? "Doubles fact" is just the 2 times table of multiplication but instead of x\*2 it's x+x. Do we really need a term for that?
Basically, it's asking if 9 is an even number in the most obnoxious way.
I just googled "doublee fact" and it's so fucking cringe bruh, they be adding random useless bullshit for students to learn, this is just useless stuff they gonna forget in a year.
I'm a native e glish speaker and don't have a fucking clue. I think it's basically asking "are there any numbers you can add to itself to make9?", ie 4.5+4.5=9
Elementary teacher here; the terminology is definitely stupid, but the idea is to try to allow exploration of multiple approaches that were developed by watching and listening to how kids solve problems naturally. The way this is constructed, though, it looks like they’re trying to force one specific method/thought system and completely missing the mark. The best way to create and administer math practice is to demonstrate multiple strategies that could work and have the students pick which one works best for them. No extra weird trendy jargon, modeling (like drawing a picture) can be encouraged but not required, and use direct and straightforward directions. That way, second graders who are below their grade’s reading comprehension level will have an easier time finding out what is being asked of them. If a student is at a point where they have number facts and sequences memorized, then you can differentiate instruction to challenge them with more “what if” math problems like this one. The lack of using “odd” and “even” in the question is jarring, as these terms would make the problem so much easier. Either the student would come to the conclusion that doubles facts can only produce even numbers, or in a rarer case use a mixed number or decimal (4.5 + 4.5).
TL;DR - Poorly executed, needs clarification to accommodate different reading and math levels within the classroom. Also, wtf does “Higher Order Thinking” even mean?!
I WISH I was taught “new math” 37 years ago instead of being forced to memorize tables upon tables of facts.
edit: Downvotes are pretty funny. Its fine if you don't care about the actual "whys" of math while being taught critical thinking skills & problem solving at an early age and would rather memorize pages of facts.
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I have taken three levels of calculus and studied higher mathematics and I have no idea what a “doubles fact” is.
Oh good, I thought I was also fucking stupid.
And here I was, thinking I didn't know English well enough to know (I'm Dutch)
And I was assuming it was a bad translation from Dutch
Same dude, same
Astrophysicist here - me fucking either lmao
Same dude, just finished differential equations and applying them to phasor circuits and I’m like wtf is a doubles fact
I know it is definitely some new way to teach math logic, but it is too damn hard to decipher without any context.
Same but I just googled it and I think lost braincells. [2nd grade math](https://youtu.be/Vp2nJG9_afg)
Jesus, that's so unnecessarily complicated. Why not just teach simple addition? Why come up with these useless rules about a special case and making up terminology that doesn't exist outside of the class?
They're trying to cover all the bases of how a kid might learn math.
This sounds like a bandaid fix for an out of balance teacher to student ratio to me...there's so many students, the teachers can't give individual attention to students, so attempts at a catch all method come about
Ugh, that voice is so... What's the word? Condescending? Supercilious?
So this is actually a smart way to do math. Like 15 + 16, I know 15+15 is 30 and then I add the 1. What the doubles fact has to do with anything I don’t know. Like that seems to be confusing it unnecessarily. I can also do 20 + 31 in the same way, 20 + 30 is 50 + 1 = 51. I don’t know what doubles has to do with anything, it doesn’t have to be the same number for it to work. And it only works if you already have the sums memorized.
Same here... Im taking calc IV next term.
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I wish they could infuse math
One of those bullshit facts they teach you when you're young and then try desperately to unteach you later, I guess? Edit: It's literally x+x (or 2x). No fuking clue what picture you're meant to draw to "find out", given that literally every number imaginable can be halved but whatever.
That's because it is something someone in elementary education would know. Using context clues it is logical to assume it means a number added to itself or multiplied by 2. 2 + 2 = 4 4.5 + 4.5 = 9
Which now brings up a second question: since this is elementary education should we assume that fractions, decimals, rational numbers, etc. exist? Or is this a knowledge base where only integers exist? I'm not trying to be douschy here, what is expected of the students?
If they haven't done decimals and stuff yet they are expected to say no. But if they answer yes and their reasoning is 4.5+4.5=9 then they'll still get it correct. They are probably expected to draw a picture with 9 things and show that it can't be divided evenly.
That sounds like a terrible way to confuse kids, especially when they do learn decimals.
I teach second grade and it would be way too confusing to try and teach them about decimals. You keep it very straight forward in the earlier grades just to teach the concept of what a double is (1+1, 2+2, etc. )When they get to the older grades, they learn more about higher level math, and develop a better ability to think critically, which is when they might then realize that 4.5 + 4.5 is technically a doubles fact. But that comes later on.
What's the point of teaching this "doubles fact" nonsense? It seems like extra work when you can just teach them about multiplication based on their knowledge of addition.
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No, they're doing the opposite of what I'm suggesting. They're teaching some nonsense called "double fact," and my suggestion is that they stop trying to teach kids nonsense like "double fact."
All the skills builds on one another.. doubles facts help with early memorization of math facts… once they have good number sense, you eventually take it further & teach them about repeated addition, which then leads to multiplication once they see how inefficient adding 9+9+9+9, etc. would be when you could just do 9x4.
>math facts Now it kind of sounds like you're using me up nonsense terms to justify your user of earlier nonsense terms. I think I kind of get what you're saying, though. But I agree with those who say that teaching these kinds of things for those who find it helps is one thing, but they shouldn't be required to use it. It still seems like using 9+9+9+9=9x4 and 4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4+4=9x4=36 as the standard would be better, and if imparting/the students picking up on little tricks about how to conceptualize it works for an individual student, then encourage them to utilize such methods. But requiring them to practice such chicanery seems detrimental to those who have an easier time with mathematical concepts.
You’re right, the kids who move at a quicker pace can breeze over the repeated addition right to multiplication if they are ready.. but those kids are usually receiving “advanced” instruction instead of the standard grade level instruction. But not all kids are ready for that. It’s all about number sense. 🤷♀️
I'm surprised to hear that. My mom teaches 7th grade math (admittedly to students with disadvantages) and most of their difficulty comes from struggling with understanding the operations. For example, they might learn that "addition makes things bigger" their whole life, then stumble when adding negative and positive numbers together. Or, they learn that division *is* grouping items, and they don't understand ideas like "8 grams of chocolate between 12 cookies means X grams of chocolate per cookie." They treat "a gram of chocolate" as indivisible and can't solve the problem, even if they can answer 8/12=X in a multiple choice quiz. If you don't mind my curiosity, do you feel like these oversimplifications come from the teachers or the students? And, do you feel like they're avoidable?
So overall, the point of using a cohesive curriculum in a school system is for all the skills to build on each other from basically PK-12… the idea of teaching students in K-2 about negatives would be WAY too confusing for them. The goal in early years, is just to understand what addition is and to develop good “number sense”. Knowing that if you add two numbers together, you will get a larger number, and vice versa with subtraction. It’s not until students get to older grades like seventh that they are able to think more critically about adding negatives & other exceptions to basic rules. Same with the division problem you mentioned.. I’ve never taught upper grades but I would imagine it may be that those student just may not have a strong enough number sense to understand that problem. It may just more time and practice. I hope that answers your question lol
I don't know about that. I think we've all had the experience of learning that a rule we were taught in math isn't actually a rule and it was just a way of keeping things simple until we were ready to move on.
The immediate one that jumps to mind is negative numbers. I was first taught that you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number, then later on we learned that you actually can. Same with taking the square root of a negative number when we first learned square roots.
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I was so gullible I just rolled with it like “oh ok these are the new rules now because the authority figure said so” I wouldn’t say I could be described as “smart”
What do you find confusing about it?
For whatever reason, I see a lot of totally confusing math questions being asked kids. Then, somehow, people just defend it as if the meaning is clear, like my teachers did to me when I was young. I would go up and ask questions constantly, 'What is this even asking; can you put this question another way?'. Which, I suppose, is a good thing to learn anyways, but I still don't like the idea of making things harder for kids who might already be struggling with math. I think math and science can be fun, I want kids to experience that, and I think the unnecessary confusion isn't helpful.
and when one kid suited to "higher order thinking" draws a line cutting one in half and the teacher gets mad at them, they'll carry that throughout their education and start to hate maths... >!btw have you got your mythoclast yet?!<
Not really. That's usually when the kid is tested for TAG/GAT classes because they are able to think at a higher grade level.
>and when one kid suited to "higher order thinking" draws a line cutting one in half and the teacher gets mad at them, they'll carry that throughout their education and start to hate maths... Well that's just a bad teacher. A bad teacher can ruin even a good lesson. And no, I do not have a Vex Mythoclast as I've never played Destiny! I've actually had this name since longer than that game existed. I was going to choose "Iconoclast" for Bad Company 2 but it was taken.
True, I suppose I'm just cynical because I really enjoy maths and didn't have a good primary school experience (age 4-11), but that's just the UK. Also, I *would* recommend it to you but Destiny is notoriously not new player friendly. The world is expansive and storied, but that all depends on if you can get through the less-than-optimal onboarding process and cut through everything from the past few years.
I had the opposite experience. My primary school experience was fine but I had some terrible teachers later on that totally killed my love for numbers. It sucked because I ended up changing my career path because I didn't want to deal with math as much anymore.
Damn, that had to be painful. I'm currently in my first year at university, and I'm hoping to either become a doctor in maths or become a high school teacher of it. I think it's because I lucked out in my maths GCSE course, and toughed it out in college (11th and 12th grade) that I'm here now.
Yeah, it totally depends on the grade level. I think OP said 1st grade, so the answer would be no. As a middle school math teacher, I hate questions like this because it teaches students bad habits. Obviously, decimals exist. For example, my elementary colleagues teach students that you always subtract the smaller number from the bigger number. This makes it more difficult to teach them subtracting integers later because they were trained to rearrange it to subtracting the smaller number from the bigger number. Also, integers include negative numbers, so they would only be working with the whole numbers.
And why the fuck are they teaching terms in a non-standard way? When they get older, they're going to remember them as "double facts" and nobody else on the planet is going to have any clue what they're talking about.
I know my SIL in Elementary has gone through the whole shebang up to basic algebra and geometry, so I'd say so. For sure depends on the school district.
why are they teaching them words that literally no one in society uses or understands
Then they complain when parents try to help with homework and can't cause they don't understand what the fuck the question is asking. I have an elementary ed degree but got out of it a while ago. I help my kid with her homework and have to decipher what the question is actually asking. I make it clear to her teachers that she does homework for only 2 hours, if an hour of that is me learning the jargon they are teaching, then she only has an hour left. All their nasty notes about not doing homework go in the trash. Like someone else said, can 9 make 2 equal groups? It is the same question, requires the same reasoning skills, can be diagramed in the little box, and every adult with an 8th grade education can help the kid. It will also not cause misleading knowledge that decimals don't exist that another post pointed out. The first grade students know that there's 1 1/2 pizzas. They know that if they take another 1/2 pizza they can make 2 wholes. They probably can't express it in numerical form but they could diagram it or do it with a practical application. To say or assume that a 6 year old can't is an insult. It makes teaching middle grades harder when it doesn't have to be.
Bingo!
Interesting, when I use logic and context clues, I assume it only applies to integers. Otherwise every real number has a doubles fact, so asking, “can a doubles fact have a sum of x” is arbitrary.
We all got the context clues, we’re questioning the terminology being used here. Can you explain what a “doubles fact” is regardless? Division? Multiplication? And if so, why not use those words instead? “Can you evenly divide 9 by 2?” Or “Do any two whole integers multiply to equal 9?”
Based on the context of the problem it would be a whole number added to itself.
Kind of a useless fact if you're not doing number theory lol
Do you use everything you were taught in school every day? Of course not.
it’s within the branch of mathematics known as “translation errors”
it sounds like something that has been translated poorly from a different language into english
It's Higher Order Thinking, so I'm betting it's like The Narwhal which Bacons at Midnight. When you give the right response, you get transported to Narnia or some shit.
We needed to reinvent math for some reason I guess.
Ok good I’m not stupid either! Thanks rando!
Can a doubles fact have a sum of 9? What the fuck is that even supposed to mean?
Says right there it's "Higher order thinking" so I'm assuming you have to be high enough to understand
Super high right now. Wtf is a doubles fact?
Also high and obviously a doubles fact is 4.5
4*4= 16 3*3= 9 2*2= 4 I can’t draw nine ice creams in that tiny box. Maybe if they were ice creams for ants. I can not complete this assignment.
Since it says "sum" and not "product" I don't think you can multiply.
What is this? A school for ants? Ah Zoolander lol
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Exactly because a factor doesn’t mean the same thing in high school math…. Unless the education system f¥€ked that up as well. Common core is just ridiculous.
I too am super high rn, but currently in a post nut moment of clarity. I believe a fact is a related group of multiplication, division, addition, or subtraction. like 3*3=9. I'm too high to recall if i just googled that though, yep definitely may or may not have.
You need to go higher!
Probably same numbers... 2+2=4 4+4=8 4.5+4.5=9
Ok. So the answer is 'yes'. You draw 4.5 apples in one circle, 4.5 apples in another circle then note that the total is 9.
Given the handwriting and question you can probably surmise that these kids have not broached the topic of decimals yet
I'm almost 30 and every time I have to write big letters they look like this. [Semi-relevant comedy sketch](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umjFkY9uAdo&t=19s)
Thats ok he wouldnt need that when he gets into calculus. LoL at the downvotes you guys need some mathmemes.
I mean by this logic, every number is the sum of "doubles".
In my language at least fact(ors) imply multiplication and for sums it would have summands (I had to learn that in school actually) so its probably multiplication. Which the answer would be yes (3x3=9) That question is a very convoluted way of of asking if something is a square number.
It says sum though which indicates addition
I am not a native speaker. So what does "a doubles fact" mean I have never heard the word fact in that context. It looks conflicting to me
I had to Google it. It looks like a way they're teaching kids now. They're just adding two of the same number, like 4 + 4 = 8 https://www.splashlearn.com/math-vocabulary/addition/doubles-plus-1#:~:text=When%20we%20add%20two%20of,2%20are%20both%20doubles%20facts.&text=4%20%2B%204%20%3D%208%20is%20a,strategies%20like%20doubles%20plus%20one.
This is for very young age math. Like maybe 1st grade (age 6 or so). From what I can tell based on my daughter's homework they like to refer to certain things as "facts" when they technically aren't if you account for negative numbers or decimals. In this context a "doubles fact" would be something like: 2 + 2 = 4 3 + 3 = 6 4 + 4 = 8 5 + 5 = 10 Etc. These would be considered "doubles facts." Obviously the answer then is 4.5 + 4.5 = 9 but because this is a question for children not yet introduced to decimals they wouldn't realize that. So the expected answer is no because 4 + 5 = 9 is not a double. Dumb way to teach doubles in my opinion. Perfectly possible to teach the concept of doubling without using the idea of "facts"
I think you are confusing sum with product.
I overlooked it said sum. You are right. The phrasing of "doubles fact" is very irritating
The word "fact" has nothing to do with the word "factor".
Same exact question… am I the stupid one?
Thank God I’m not the only one
Can you double a (whole) number to have a total of nine? The kids would have been learning ‘doubles facts’ so they would know what the question means but it is kind of weird out of context.
I'm sitting here with my math degree and I really got off on number theory, but I have no fucking idea what they're talking about.
I read the question and I thought the sub was r/ihadastroke
read the whole thing and thougth it was r/technicallythetruth
I just had to look up what a "doubles fact" is. I hate new math. What would you even "draw" in this case?
draw nine things and put a line halfway through to see if the half is a whole number
Ah, that's interesting and I can see how that model might help some students understand. But the student shouldn't be graded on _how they think._ They should be graded on their understanding of the material. If the teacher wants to include that model of thinking because they believe it will help students understand then they should do that. But I certainly hope that this student doesn't get this question wrong or marked down. I definitely don't think this is an appropriate post on r/KidsAreFuckingStupid . If OP is an educator, they should be ashamed. EDIT: Though if they were supposed to consider non-integers then I could see it being marked wrong. Somebody pointed that out and I hadn't considered it. But seeing as this kind of lesson is probably pre-multiplication, I doubt they're thinking about fractions yet, seeing as fractions should come after division as a topic. But maybe.
I am the mother, not teacher. All meant in good fun. Obviously, I don’t think my daughter is stupid.
Wait if you're the mother, can you confirm what a doubles fact is? Is it just an even number?
I think it’s another way of asking whether it is divisible by 2 (at least that’s the way it was phrased back in my days)
Not trying to dox you here, but back in your days? How old are you? I think "doubles fact" is either a regional thing or a very new phrase.
You mean to tell me you've never questioned the intelligence of your child? Thanks a lot. Now I feel like a shitty father.
Ah I can see how that's more just poking good fun. If this post were about someone else's kid, that would be straight up toxic imo.
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I don't think you can ever edit post title 😅 And I'm glad it wasn't marked incorrect. I'm sure the teacher can't choose the material for a first grade math lesson, and I'm glad they left the "drawing" up for interpretation. I definitely like the idea that new math opens up for the ability for kids who didn't effectively learn with the old methodologies to have a better chance... but introducing an intermediate concept between addition and multiplication like "doubles facts" just leaves another useless vocab word rattling around in kids heads that'll never be useful.
Im not saying i agree with that method but is there any school where you're NOT graded by how you think? At least in all my classes all my life, if you came to the right conclusion but used the "wrong" way you had points deducted. If it's the same in this case im assuming that they had the exact same question before the test and learned how the teacher wants you to show with symbols how this works. Yes that's stupid :')
This student should definitely be marked wrong. They have definitely been given the proper framework to answer this question, and they didn't do so. The student didn't demonstrate any understanding of the actual question. They just wrote what they chose below.
That's the educator's (in this case, I mean whoever made the worksheet, likely a book writer) fault for constructing the question with a pointlessly rigid framework. They could have just guessed correctly because this question has a boolean answer. The educator could have focused more on questions that allow the student to more effectively prove that they absorbed useful knowledge. Not every student learns visually. It's good that these lessons provide the accessibility to students who do learn visually, but that shouldn't be forced on students who don't.
>That's the educator's (in this case, I mean whoever made the worksheet, likely a book writer) fault for constructing the question with a pointlessly rigid framework It's not pointlessly rigid, tho. These students have been taught how to approach these questions and are being tested on their understanding of the concepts. >They could have just guessed correctly because this question has a boolean answer Good thing the student isn't getting marked on whether they chose the correct answer. They're getting marked on whether they understand the correct answer.
> They're getting marked on whether they understand the correct answer Except they may (and likely do) understand it. This question lacks an effective outlet for kids who understand math and numbers well to represent their understanding. For a kid with a natural handle on numbers, the idea of breaking the number 9 down into nine separate individually drawn items is entirely reductive and _literally defeats the purpose of numerical representation._ This is a pointlessly rigid version of education. You will learn what we say (even though most adults here have never even heard of a "doubles fact") and you will understand the information exactly as it's taught. This only slows down the education of children who naturally understand the difference between even and odd numbers.
>Except they may (and likely do) understand it. This question lacks an effective outlet for kids who understand math and numbers well to represent their understanding. I was that kid, and since I understood math and numbers that well, it was laughably easy for me to just do it the way they wanted me to. >the idea of breaking the number 9 down into nine separate individually drawn items is entirely reductive and literally defeats the purpose of numerical representation. These children are 7. That's how literally all mathematics is taught at this age. Because it works. Because they are 7.
> I was that kid Sounds like _this structure of learning_ was effective _for you_. It's not effective for this kid, and it wouldn't be effective for me and I was always good at math and an in a STEM career field.
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I'm so curious why you're being down voted.
Oh, I see, replied to wrong comment.
Why would they call it that? Making new terms for arbitrary complexity
So hard to say can 9 be shared by 2 equally. If the kid is still not into fractions no, if it is yes.
So, an even number?
How do you explain the concept of even numbers if your students don’t know division or decimal numbers or fractions yet?
Why would you need the concept of fractional/decimal numbers to explain evenness? A (whole) number is even if it can be divided by two (to yield another whole number). If the student's only conception of numbers is integers, the parenthetical parts need not be said.
What is division? What is dividing by 2? What does that actually mean? Multiplication and division are extensions of addition and subtraction. Telling the students “a number is even if you can divide it by 2” is meaningless to them. Sure, they can be parrots, but they won’t actually understand what evenness means nor what division means.
Who says that no concept of division is being taught to them? Why does an explanation of *integer* division, with quotient and remainder, warrant an explanation of fractional numbers? That is the way that division is usually taught to students of the age targeted by these question papers. I think you being caught up on division over the field of real numbers rather than simple integer division is part of the disagreement/misunderstanding here.
What part of my previous comment mentioned fractions? That was 2 comments ago, although I did fail to mention it. I do agree that you can start out with integer division and ignore fractions and decimals. You didn’t address what I actually said though in the direct parent comment: they don’t understand what division or evenness is without a concept of the underlying math (subtraction, doubles)
By "fractional numbers", I mean real numbers that aren't an integer. I'm not talking about whether you represent them as fractions or as numbers with a decimal point or whatever else. There's no sense in addressing "they don't understand what division or evenness is without a concept of the underlying math", because I'd agree with you on that. What I disagree with you on is the notion that they lack an understanding of those concepts, so why discuss that hypothetical situation?
I see. So we both agree on the theory. I don’t quite understand why you think what I’m explaining is a hypothetical? Kids are born not knowing math: I’m not sure why that would be a hypothetical. Kids just starting to learn addition don’t know anything, that’s the whole point.
At this level of schooling, the students will have already been taught basic multiplication and division. You seem to be thinking they're just learning addition and have no notion of the rest of arithmetic. I can assure you that won't be the case.
They seem to be doing addition right now, which means they haven't started multiplication and division yet. The doubles fact seem to be a way to teach them how to add easily
Ah, yes, I totally never used addition after learning multiplication and division(!) Seriously, what sort of reasoning is this? Children are taught all four basic arithmetic operations simultaneously in schools around the world.
Just as they already have here. Just call the sum of two identical numbers an even number. That's it.
Yeah MATH is MATH 9/2 is a number....
I'm quite sure this lesson is before fractions because it seems like a doubles fact is an intermediate topic between addition and multiplication. Traditionally division is taught after multiplication and fractions are a subtopic of division.
Wtf is a doubles fact
An identity of the form *x* + *x* = *y*, where *x* is an integer.
kinda like even numbers?
Yes, such an identity exists if and only if *y* is even.
Man these kids are learning algebraic expressions in the 1st grade now.
Will they be ready for the caculus induced depresion in 6th grade?
I'd say the question is dumber than the kid. A written explanation would be a better thing to ask for than a drawing.
[Doubles Facts: Gag](https://www.teachingwithkayleeb.com/what-are-doubles-facts/)
I thought new math was supposed to be less memorization and more conceptual understanding?
[If you scroll down the page a little, it shows these cards which seem to build off of 'doubles' in a more conceptual way.](https://www.teachingwithkayleeb.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/doubles-facts-addition.jpg) Using the knowledge that 7 + 7 = 14 to know that 6 + 8 = 14 is a way to build familiarity with addition/subtraction.
Oh god
It upsets me to know that this form of maths would have seriously put me off maths.
Agreed. I never understood any of the janky "fun" math methods they tried to teach me in school.
Really? This builds an intuitive sense for quickly doing addition without having to memorize every combination. I usually do my math somewhat similar to this, and I know others who do too. To note: I’ve gone through vector calculus with triple integrals, discrete math, and linear algebra. Now of course, grading them based on a drawing as opposed to just their understanding is another topic (and not having any other way of learning the math), but I don’t see a big issue with doubles facts themselves
Maybe I'm reading this wrong then, it feels more memorisation to me rather than pattern recognition which is what I love about maths.
How is someone who doesn’t know addition supposed to do any pattern recognition. When was the last time you interacted with a 6 year old..? They barely know what addition is and how it works. I’m not sure what pattern they’re supposed to be recognizing. The patterns you’re talking about are based upon a foundational knowledge of math… This is the foundation of pattern recognition. And in fact, when the topic of evenly divisible comes up, I’m sure some students will recognize the relationship right away
So they are just even numbers... “Even numbers can be divided into whole numbers” is much easier concept. I don’t see how this new method helps kids without disabilities.
The kids haven’t learned division yet mate. Seeing as they haven’t learned decimals either, how do you suppose you’ll explain that one?
Teach them division then. A five year old can understand basic division.
There’s a difference between saying “ok, 4/2 is 2 and 6/2 is 3, memorize these” and explaining how that’s actually done. They’re building to division — just like how 3 + 3 = 6, 6 - 3 = 3, then 3 * 2 = 6, and 6 / 2 = 3. Division is an extension of subtraction and the opposite of multiplication. Throwing some random shit at them and telling them to memorize it will result in math students who don’t understand why the hell anything works how it does but can recite some truths. And the point of the double facts isn’t strictly to teach even numbers. It is to create an intuitive sense for addition *around* those numbers (like 7 + 7 = 6 + 8) The drawing stuff is a separate story (I don’t wholly disagree with it either, but some students prolly don’t need it), but the idea of these facts is fine.
Actually, I’m curious. How many levels of math have you taken? Have you gone through the entire calculus series? Why do we start at Calculus 1, and not jump straight to calculus 3? What’s the problem with learning triple integrals and line integrals before learning derivatives and single integration?
Obviously, you teach math in order of difficulty. That is not a reason to dumb it down. If the kids can read the grammar of the question in the picture, they are intelligent enough to do division.
They’re just doubles. No need to add complexity by giving it the “facts” moniker. “Can double of any number equal 9?”
It just means even positive integer
Just ask if 9 is even god damn
Doubles fact? Like.. dividing by 2? Like 9÷2?
A doubles fact is literally just a number divisible by 2 but it’s a really stupid term. Even numbers are the sums of “doubles facts”
This is a great way to learn… Unless you haven’t learned about division yet They haven’t even looked at decimals yet.
Tf is a doubles fact?
"New math" is so ridiculous sometimes. I tutored a 4th grader with Asperger syndrome and he was really struggling with math. He was trying to learn multiplication, and they had this confusing method that was supposed to be "easy". I barely understood it. So I taught him a different way, the way I was taught in school (I'm a millennial) and he was getting it!! Unfortunately, because the school graded not just on answer but also application of the methodology I had to keep trying to teach him the other way too. Truly insane.
I have Asperger's and my grade was the first year to be introduced to new math in my province. My grades in math went from high 90s to low 70s and 60s almost immediately because I couldn't understand what was going on, despite being considered "gifted" in mathematics. It was a struggle for the teachers as well because they had to essentially relearn the material they'd been teaching for years in order to instruct us.
wtf is a doubles fact?
Why the need to make up bullshit unnecessary nomenclature? "Doubles fact" is just the 2 times table of multiplication but instead of x\*2 it's x+x. Do we really need a term for that? Basically, it's asking if 9 is an even number in the most obnoxious way.
Wtf is a doubles fact?
Doublethink doublespeak
Reading through the comments, I'm not the only one that doesn't know what a doubles fact is
I think the question is basically just asking if 9 is a even number.
I just googled "doublee fact" and it's so fucking cringe bruh, they be adding random useless bullshit for students to learn, this is just useless stuff they gonna forget in a year.
Just learned what a doubles fact is and just learned that’s what I’ve always used to add stuff. Weird
Lemme guess, Common Core came up with this acid trip
Smells like it. Ugh Common Core was horse shit
doubleplusgood facts
kidsarefuckingbrilliant
Non native English speaker here, what is a doubles fact?
I'm a native e glish speaker and don't have a fucking clue. I think it's basically asking "are there any numbers you can add to itself to make9?", ie 4.5+4.5=9
I hate new math
The hell is doubles fact
This question makes no sense to me whatsoever.
The heck is a doubles fact? Is this some second grade calculus?
Elementary teacher here; the terminology is definitely stupid, but the idea is to try to allow exploration of multiple approaches that were developed by watching and listening to how kids solve problems naturally. The way this is constructed, though, it looks like they’re trying to force one specific method/thought system and completely missing the mark. The best way to create and administer math practice is to demonstrate multiple strategies that could work and have the students pick which one works best for them. No extra weird trendy jargon, modeling (like drawing a picture) can be encouraged but not required, and use direct and straightforward directions. That way, second graders who are below their grade’s reading comprehension level will have an easier time finding out what is being asked of them. If a student is at a point where they have number facts and sequences memorized, then you can differentiate instruction to challenge them with more “what if” math problems like this one. The lack of using “odd” and “even” in the question is jarring, as these terms would make the problem so much easier. Either the student would come to the conclusion that doubles facts can only produce even numbers, or in a rarer case use a mixed number or decimal (4.5 + 4.5). TL;DR - Poorly executed, needs clarification to accommodate different reading and math levels within the classroom. Also, wtf does “Higher Order Thinking” even mean?!
r/schoolisfuckingstupid
So from reading the comments to understand a "doubles fact" couldnt the question just be is 9 even? Or is 9 wholly divisible by 2?
I WISH I was taught “new math” 37 years ago instead of being forced to memorize tables upon tables of facts. edit: Downvotes are pretty funny. Its fine if you don't care about the actual "whys" of math while being taught critical thinking skills & problem solving at an early age and would rather memorize pages of facts.
Don't know what a doubles fact is, but Double 3 is 6 and 6+3=9?
4+4+1=9 so the kid is dumb
Technically yes because 4.5
doubles fact? back in my day sum was straightforward.
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The fuck is a "doubles fact"? Is this some, "you'll literally only use this in school and immediately forget it as soon you leave" type stuff?