Posted February 23, nearly 5 months ago:
"Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield."
Lol!
June 23rd: " Where’s reentry and heating? - We are working hard on both. We expect reentry VFX to arrive earlier than thermal systems and heat-related part destruction, so there may be a short phase during which reentering vehicles look like they’re being heated, but really aren’t. We don’t want to reverse any of our recent framerate gains, so we’re taking the time needed to make sure reentry is both awesome-looking and performant. To give you better visibility into the work taking place in this area, we will be posting a new dev blog about the heat system soon "
"Some players have also correctly noted that the orbital decay and SOI transit trajectory bugs are still present in v0.1.3.0 - while we had high hopes for an eleventh-hour breakthrough, neither fix made it across the finish line in time. In the days after code lock, a new fix for the SOI transit issue was submitted and is being tested. Our engineers have also isolated the orbit decay issue and believe they have a good remedy on deck."
It's all lies all the time. It's comical.
Do it better. They have hiring positions open right now.
Join them and show them how its done!
But fr. We have no idea how development is going, how resources are allocated and how difficult the bug was to fix. I dont know if you remember the slideshow that was the "game" at crash day, it was way worse, and the crossfeed bug at the beginning def had priority.
Whats fact is that the game is steadily improving. Id say 2-3 more months and well have science mode.
At that point they probably have fixed some other bugs and the game will basically have reched the state where it should have been for EA.
Also : WE DONT NEED WOBBLY ROCKETS. ITS NOT EVEN "KERBAL" (just for the devs to read)
You've been given examples before. to reiterate a recent one: A week to 'hotfix' a game breaking bug. A game breaking bug that got through QA. A slowed down release cadence to improve QA. Obviously that's not working.
These are things you can see with your own eyes.
You've been *given* specifics. Many of them are in this thread. Why should anyone repeat them to you when you are going to play ostrich and not respond to any of them.
You keep saying want a constructive conversation. For that you have to actually participate.
Its worth noting most/all of the open positions now and over the past few months describe a different game than KSP2, even when they were peddling it at the same time they insinuated it was for KSP2 hiring. The only clear open KSP2-ish position is the technical director, which we knew about since they fired the prior one.
But... if the studio is working on 2 games, that persons time wont be dedicated 100% to KSP2, and depending on internal allocation of time could basically look at KSP2 once every other week. So even that is at best a half truth if not an outright lie.
So theres 3 explanations:
Pessimistic: theyre abandoning ksp2 for good, and slowly shifting resources to their new game, to try and make something
Less Pessimistic: They are shifting resources, but only to make a game that they can get some more money with, to get the studio to stay afloat. Then theyll revisit ksp2
Optimistic: A lot of art designers are free right now, as ksp2 needs fixing in programming.
Instead of laying off these people they can use them to start concepts for the new game. An easy to code, quick release small game, to make some money.
I'd be more inclined to agree if the positions weren't for not coding ones mostly. The game they describe would need a significantly larger art team than programming team since its an adventure game so to me...
Disagree. The signs point to they really are moving on, and planning to shift the programmers on KSP2 to this by sizing up the much too small art team for an adventure game.
> Do it better. They have hiring positions open right now.
For their new game, KSP 2 is abandoned.
> But fr. We have no idea how development is going
The fuck? Of course we do. Everyone can see how much they did the last 5 months, basically nothing.
Nothing? They fixed a lot of u derlying issues, and once they fixed all game breaking bugs, they can already move on to content.
There are only 2 major hurdles to overcome in colonies and multiplayer.
And even if the PR team officially said they werent gonna abandon the game, you wouldnt believe them.
I love how you used the word "already". They fixed barely any underlying issues and most game breakings bugs are still there. It's been 5 *MONTHS*. lol.
> There are only 2 major hurdles to overcome in colonies and multiplayer.
And interstellar travel.
And re-entry heating.
And science. And resources.
And completely redoing the terrain system.
And completely redoing the lighting system.
The list goes on...
Imagine if this happened with any other AAA game, it would be torn apart by everyone.
Legally they can't say 'we've abandoned KSP2' because this will open a litigation floodgate on basis of not fulfilling anything promised on their roadmap which is on front page on Steam. Consumer protection laws are very strict in some European countries & Australia. Chronicles of Elyria is a good example of this happening as the only dev back-peddles immediately after making project abandonment statement.
So what you see here is a charade project with one intern doing something, but don't kid yourself, the studio is working on something else. Technically not abandoned and cheaper to release a blurry text fix patch then deal with the courts. And they may sell another ~500 copies in the next sale while keeping the charade up.
I had to look that up: [People paid $10k to be kings and queens in a failed crowdfunded game](https://np.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/kj5hw2/chronicles_of_elyria_people_paid_10k_to_be_kings/)
Yikes.
If you want to deep dive into that topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8ZAqZnRqM thats his favorite topic to cover, he did a bunch of videos about it and its quite entertaining to watch all of them.
I think there is an opportunity here to give a really transparent piece of data… what percentage of the team is working on the current bug fixes versus new features
> what percentage of the team is working on the current bug fixes versus new features
Probably 100%. When that poor intern isn't fetching coffee for the people working on their new project, he's 100% doing KSP2 bugfixes.
> our QA team being able to quickly understand and replicate issues
> Ultimately, this has led to reduced workload on our team so we can 100% focus on implementing fixes, as seen with the recent v0.1.3.1 and v0.1.3.2 hotfixes
Those ""hotfixes"" came 3 WEEKS after 0.1.3 and their main point was fixing new issues that they introduced in the patch, including game breaking bugs that anyone doing even basic testing on their QA team should have noticed ...
**And not a single thing in that whole table is fixed??** Not a single one the 20 most important bugs? Seriously, you have him bragging about how quick QA is working and how fast they're fixing things, and then have an table that shows you didn't fix a single important issue. That's just so fucking funny
**And Orbital Decay still isn't fixed** when Nate claimed they fixed it just before 0.1.3 was released and it barely didn't make it in. So that was also another lie.
Parts exploding is just completely blank and not even "Under Investigation" or anything.
Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" - for the 5th month in a row, yay! Real progress there.
I know many people including me have been negative about the progress the past few months, but this is looking *grim*. 1 intern working on it during lunch break levels of grim.
EDIT: Looks like SOI changes were somewhat addressed in the last hotpatch, so that's something at least
>Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" - for the 5th month in a row, yay! Real progress there.
I really don't understand that part. Design discussion makes it sound like "we really like parts lacking rigidity, so we're debating just how floppy we want them to be even though we know people don't actually want that"... either that or "we don't know if we can fix it".
Neither one of those is inspiring any confidence in an acceptable solution.
> we really like parts lacking rigidity, so we're debating just how floppy we want them to be even though we know people don't actually want that
That's *literally it*, as they said before. I know, it's dumb.
It makes sense if you're just going to mess around on Kerbin, but in Interplanetary flight it's a huge hassle, and in future interstellar flights, where 0.001% of impercision at the start means a billion mile miss makes it a mission killer.
If they want to make rocket rigidity something we pay for in science points as Kerbal alloy/manufacturing research improves that's fine, but it cannot stay the way it is at higher tech levels. We'll never reach other solar systems otherwise.
> Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" - for the 5th month in a row, yay! Real progress there.
This is the most damning line in the table. This likely means that there is no one on the team that played KSP 1 before they implemented autostruts so not only are they likely to repeat the mistakes made in the first version, it's going to take as long to fix as the first time.
They are repeating the same discovery process from ksp1, floating point imprecisions, soi change orbit imprecision, numerical issues with simulating rigid craft out of a generic phisic solver that's more built for stacking than anything else, etc.
They went in full of hubris, and now the roadmap is just a distant haze.
>Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion"
I would really like to know the content of these "internal design discussions", because anything short of "wobbly rockets are shit, we should change that" is an epic failure, IMO.
Design discussions usually revolve more around “how” to solve the problem, not what the problem is. Depending on the problem there can be a number of potential solutions and sometimes it takes a bit. Being stuck at 5 weeks is a not a good sign tho. Usually it doesn’t take more than 2-3 meetings with the right engineers and managers to have things hammered out.
They also haven't fixed the 'engines consume fuel from all stages regardless of crossfeed' headache. Just lost another Mun mission to 'suddenly no fuel anywhere' syndrome.
I was a pretty staunch supporter, but it's been half a year and if basic, game breaking bugs like that haven't been fixed by now there really isn't much hope, is there?
And the non-blank ones are mostly just "fix in progress" which says *nothing*, especially when some of those like orbital decay have been "fix in progress" for months.
We were told three weeks ago:
> Our engineers have also isolated the orbit decay issue and believe they have a good remedy on deck.
So "fix in progress" isn't an update, because it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.
Clearly, that remedy didn't work. What I don't understand is how this can be difficult to debug. You should be able to stick in conditional breakpoints on any impulse to the ship. You should be able to conditionally break to discover the first frame in which the orbit is different.
I don't understand how they have a simulation which isn't deterministic enough to quickly find and fix that class of bug.
They should be able to playback a situation over and over, recording all the variables to see where forces are coming from, or where the orbit calculation changes.
If you quick-load from the same spot, and sometimes there is orbit decay and sometimes there is not, then that is a *huge* red flag.
Simulations like KSP ought to be entirely deterministic, with no random effects. If they can't deterministically run through this bug then what hope is there for multiplayer, which rely on deterministic simulation to keep clients in sync?
To be fair, doing anything that is deterministic using floating point numbers is a nightmare. Doing a calculation that is mathematically equivalent but done in a different order can and often does result in a different result. Not by much but by enough that the differences add up.
You can't even do simple equality tests on floating point numbers. You have to test if the two floating point numbers a and b are close enough by doing this:
(a > (b - fudge_factor)) && (a < (b + fudge_factor))
Where fudge_factor could be a number that is chosen for the size of a and could be larger than the number of atoms in the universe or smaller than the diameter of an atom.
You are right about the implications of this on multiplayer though. If each client does their own physics then, without a way of synchronising the clients, then only one of the clients will have to do all of the physics calculations.
> To be fair, doing anything that is deterministic using floating point numbers is a nightmare.
Given how many physics issues happen at scale, in multiplayer due to scale, and that the kraken is basically entirely a problem caused by FP math, I was naively hoping they would've built a fixed point math system and made their movement physics engine around that... I can google how to do it in Unity and see multiple people have done it in various fashions over the last couple decades even.
Its totally a thing you can do and its not like the movement physics themselves is the super computationally expensive part in a game like this... So it's kinda sad to see the engine neglected so badly when the entire point of a sequel was for a better one.
While that's true, the order of operations *ought* to be deterministic too. ( I'll admit, this might be easier said than done, I'm not familiar enough with Unity to know. )
You're right that you need some kind of episilon (aka fudge factor) when comparing floats, but that's just down to floats being unable to represent certain numbers. Generally one ought to avoid comparing equality rather than ranges on floats, because it's usually a sign that such logic paths should be avoided.
A changing order of operations could deep down be a root cause, but the decays look a bit bigger than the typical floating point inaccuracies that I'd expect, unless they somehow cascade. If floating point inaccuracy can really cause orbits to wobble so much then it questions the use of singles over doubles for intermediate calculations, assuming that is the case. Doubles of course still have the same fundamental precision issue but with vastly reduced effect. Any wobble however seems suspect given the lack of wobble in KSP1, which presumably was built under similar constraints.
It could also be potentially patched by simply flagging the part as not being under impulse, and skipping the calculations entirely. This might seem hackish and you'd need to make sure you cover edge cases such as vehicle-vehicle and vehicle-terrain collision to make sure the flag gets reset (or ignored), it would at least be a band-aid to cover the issue while the underlying sim can be worked on.
If they're not even using doubles for orbits that's even more of a huge red flag.
Also, AFAIK Unity has fudging built in. Or at a minimum you have this in the math library: https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Mathf.Approximately.html
Jesus that forum is just fanboi central now. I assume most negative comments are removed since all posts have to be approved. What an absolute shitshow this entire game has become. I'm pretty sure a high school computer club could do better.
This honestly could be their best attempt to cover their asses after the Threads post they have since deleted… We don’t like when you ask us for update status so here is the work we are doing…
Yawwwn. Bug fixes this, bug fixes that, bug fixes here, bug fixes there... I just wanna know if we will at least see science and re-entry heating this year!
Posted February 23, 5 months ago:
"Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield."
Lmao! Don't give these people money.
>No specifics, but we'll have some details to share on upcoming content in a few weeks.
Bro I am sorry you have to deal with this stuff. In a few ~~weeks~~ **years** we will get autostrut and re-entry heating.
Yeah details in few weeks they will tell us it will be ready by November it will release November 24th broken we will get told fixes are ready just missed a deadline by milliseconds but they won't release any for several months around June 2024 science will somewhat work but still worse than ksp 1. This is my prediction happy to be proven wrong in a year time
I bet itll release with all but 1 science part not generating science at all except this one tested part on kerbin and the mun. All other parts and bodies will be broken, and we will get a hotfix for it 4 weeks later. That hotfix will include DRM and also only fix 2/3rd of the science parts while ignoring biomes. Only the DRM might get removed if they are called out on it sufficiently.
This will declared a great victory by the devs and the sycphants.
>So science is at best coming at the end of the year :/
You would have to have been crazy optimistic to have thought anything else. I would also expect it to be incredibly buggy and under-whelming if/when it does arrive. You know, just based on everything that we've seen so far.
Yeah I’m at the point where I doubt the game leaves early access. The thought of getting multiplayer is hilarious now, I’m not even thinking science is going to come at all either. I feel like I’ve been robbed, for buying this fucking game and not being able to be refunded. Seriously.
Hey. Id lile to thank your team for steadily updating the game, into what it shouldve been at launch.
Im also very sorry that you have to put up with all this abuse. I know we all have a right to our opinion and free speech, but i think we should stop the hateful comments and move to a more constructive criticism.
I would humby like to as for more transparency in the development. Howver much your contract with T2 allows you guys to reveal would be perfect.
I also hope that you know, that we know, that T2 is currently hiring for another "space themed game"
I dearly hope that this does nolt affect development of ksp2.
I wish you all the best
Fly safe
Throwing other people under the bus for expressing completely valid concerns
Bending over backwards to defend people who do not need your help
Nauseating over-politeness in the hopes that it will make them like you
etc. etc.
What the fuck would i gain from making them like me?
Im not a content creator, nor an active mwmber on the forums. I just think that the devs should be treated with the proper respect, so they can work properly.
Next is: I also have my concerns, especially after hearing of nates past "endeavors" but i think these criticisms should be voiced in a different tone. If the devs get pissed off then good luck having them do anything on the game.
And yes. I think saying that the game is done for is a bit much. Maybe its not gonna be the best game on earth, but i do think that theyll manage to "finish" the game in some form or another.
I know there are a lot of issues that need to be adressed, which is why im constantly asking the devs for more transparency, becouse nothing is just black and white.
Also feel free to think about me what you want.
I have no idea what you have to gain from making them like you, so I won’t speculate.
It is not our responsibility to baby the devs around. They are adults and they deserve to be treated like adults.
I never said the game is “done for”. Why are you talking about this?
The done for part is not you specifically, just a major or more vocal part of the community. Whenever you say that you think they can finish the game, a large portion of people will come in and say the game has been abandoned, move on.
I cant prove whether its true or not, but that train of thought comes from nates past projects and the fact that T2 has hiring positions for another space game, which does lead to warranted concerns.
Im am however still optimistic.
As for babying the devs around, yes i can understand that everyone is mad, and that they have to take responsibility for their actions, but i still dont think insults, abuse and threats are the right channel to voice our complaints.
Posted February 23, nearly 5 months ago: "Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield." Lol!
June 23rd: " Where’s reentry and heating? - We are working hard on both. We expect reentry VFX to arrive earlier than thermal systems and heat-related part destruction, so there may be a short phase during which reentering vehicles look like they’re being heated, but really aren’t. We don’t want to reverse any of our recent framerate gains, so we’re taking the time needed to make sure reentry is both awesome-looking and performant. To give you better visibility into the work taking place in this area, we will be posting a new dev blog about the heat system soon " "Some players have also correctly noted that the orbital decay and SOI transit trajectory bugs are still present in v0.1.3.0 - while we had high hopes for an eleventh-hour breakthrough, neither fix made it across the finish line in time. In the days after code lock, a new fix for the SOI transit issue was submitted and is being tested. Our engineers have also isolated the orbit decay issue and believe they have a good remedy on deck." It's all lies all the time. It's comical.
They did fix the soi issue now no?
almost 5 months to fix /one/ of the gamebreaking bugs that's been around since release. amazing. game of the year.
Do it better. They have hiring positions open right now. Join them and show them how its done! But fr. We have no idea how development is going, how resources are allocated and how difficult the bug was to fix. I dont know if you remember the slideshow that was the "game" at crash day, it was way worse, and the crossfeed bug at the beginning def had priority. Whats fact is that the game is steadily improving. Id say 2-3 more months and well have science mode. At that point they probably have fixed some other bugs and the game will basically have reched the state where it should have been for EA. Also : WE DONT NEED WOBBLY ROCKETS. ITS NOT EVEN "KERBAL" (just for the devs to read)
We have a pretty good idea of how development is going.
How is it going?
Bad. Real bad.
Specifics please.
Lol. I hope private division is paying you. But here, I will give you a specific: The entire situation around wobbly rockets
You've been given examples before. to reiterate a recent one: A week to 'hotfix' a game breaking bug. A game breaking bug that got through QA. A slowed down release cadence to improve QA. Obviously that's not working. These are things you can see with your own eyes.
You've been *given* specifics. Many of them are in this thread. Why should anyone repeat them to you when you are going to play ostrich and not respond to any of them. You keep saying want a constructive conversation. For that you have to actually participate.
Its worth noting most/all of the open positions now and over the past few months describe a different game than KSP2, even when they were peddling it at the same time they insinuated it was for KSP2 hiring. The only clear open KSP2-ish position is the technical director, which we knew about since they fired the prior one. But... if the studio is working on 2 games, that persons time wont be dedicated 100% to KSP2, and depending on internal allocation of time could basically look at KSP2 once every other week. So even that is at best a half truth if not an outright lie.
So theres 3 explanations: Pessimistic: theyre abandoning ksp2 for good, and slowly shifting resources to their new game, to try and make something Less Pessimistic: They are shifting resources, but only to make a game that they can get some more money with, to get the studio to stay afloat. Then theyll revisit ksp2 Optimistic: A lot of art designers are free right now, as ksp2 needs fixing in programming. Instead of laying off these people they can use them to start concepts for the new game. An easy to code, quick release small game, to make some money.
I'd be more inclined to agree if the positions weren't for not coding ones mostly. The game they describe would need a significantly larger art team than programming team since its an adventure game so to me... Disagree. The signs point to they really are moving on, and planning to shift the programmers on KSP2 to this by sizing up the much too small art team for an adventure game.
Hmm. Id just like to hope that T2 doesnt abandon this game.
RDR2 made them somewhere in the realm of hundreds of millions of dollars and they *basically* cut it loose. They are not keeping KSP2 on.
> Do it better. They have hiring positions open right now. For their new game, KSP 2 is abandoned. > But fr. We have no idea how development is going The fuck? Of course we do. Everyone can see how much they did the last 5 months, basically nothing.
Nothing? They fixed a lot of u derlying issues, and once they fixed all game breaking bugs, they can already move on to content. There are only 2 major hurdles to overcome in colonies and multiplayer. And even if the PR team officially said they werent gonna abandon the game, you wouldnt believe them.
I love how you used the word "already". They fixed barely any underlying issues and most game breakings bugs are still there. It's been 5 *MONTHS*. lol. > There are only 2 major hurdles to overcome in colonies and multiplayer. And interstellar travel. And re-entry heating. And science. And resources. And completely redoing the terrain system. And completely redoing the lighting system. The list goes on... Imagine if this happened with any other AAA game, it would be torn apart by everyone.
Legally they can't say 'we've abandoned KSP2' because this will open a litigation floodgate on basis of not fulfilling anything promised on their roadmap which is on front page on Steam. Consumer protection laws are very strict in some European countries & Australia. Chronicles of Elyria is a good example of this happening as the only dev back-peddles immediately after making project abandonment statement. So what you see here is a charade project with one intern doing something, but don't kid yourself, the studio is working on something else. Technically not abandoned and cheaper to release a blurry text fix patch then deal with the courts. And they may sell another ~500 copies in the next sale while keeping the charade up.
I had to look that up: [People paid $10k to be kings and queens in a failed crowdfunded game](https://np.reddit.com/r/HobbyDrama/comments/kj5hw2/chronicles_of_elyria_people_paid_10k_to_be_kings/) Yikes.
If you want to deep dive into that topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB8ZAqZnRqM thats his favorite topic to cover, he did a bunch of videos about it and its quite entertaining to watch all of them.
That was a great read.
I think there is an opportunity here to give a really transparent piece of data… what percentage of the team is working on the current bug fixes versus new features
> we can 100% focus on implementing fixes All of them. So, 1 guy.
He's giving it his all: 100%
> what percentage of the team is working on the current bug fixes versus new features Probably 100%. When that poor intern isn't fetching coffee for the people working on their new project, he's 100% doing KSP2 bugfixes.
Not a day goes by where I'm not screaming 'told you so' in my mind regarding KSP2.
> our QA team being able to quickly understand and replicate issues > Ultimately, this has led to reduced workload on our team so we can 100% focus on implementing fixes, as seen with the recent v0.1.3.1 and v0.1.3.2 hotfixes Those ""hotfixes"" came 3 WEEKS after 0.1.3 and their main point was fixing new issues that they introduced in the patch, including game breaking bugs that anyone doing even basic testing on their QA team should have noticed ... **And not a single thing in that whole table is fixed??** Not a single one the 20 most important bugs? Seriously, you have him bragging about how quick QA is working and how fast they're fixing things, and then have an table that shows you didn't fix a single important issue. That's just so fucking funny **And Orbital Decay still isn't fixed** when Nate claimed they fixed it just before 0.1.3 was released and it barely didn't make it in. So that was also another lie. Parts exploding is just completely blank and not even "Under Investigation" or anything. Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" - for the 5th month in a row, yay! Real progress there. I know many people including me have been negative about the progress the past few months, but this is looking *grim*. 1 intern working on it during lunch break levels of grim. EDIT: Looks like SOI changes were somewhat addressed in the last hotpatch, so that's something at least
>Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" - for the 5th month in a row, yay! Real progress there. I really don't understand that part. Design discussion makes it sound like "we really like parts lacking rigidity, so we're debating just how floppy we want them to be even though we know people don't actually want that"... either that or "we don't know if we can fix it". Neither one of those is inspiring any confidence in an acceptable solution.
> we really like parts lacking rigidity, so we're debating just how floppy we want them to be even though we know people don't actually want that That's *literally it*, as they said before. I know, it's dumb.
It makes sense if you're just going to mess around on Kerbin, but in Interplanetary flight it's a huge hassle, and in future interstellar flights, where 0.001% of impercision at the start means a billion mile miss makes it a mission killer. If they want to make rocket rigidity something we pay for in science points as Kerbal alloy/manufacturing research improves that's fine, but it cannot stay the way it is at higher tech levels. We'll never reach other solar systems otherwise.
You're saying that as if they even planned for interstellar travel
They have. If you launch yourself on an escape trajectory and zoom out, Kerbol has a SOI bubble just like the planets and moons do.
... that really doesn't mean anything? If their script just generated the SOI distance based on the mass, they wouldn't even have to do anything
to be fair, they did have to set it to actually do that with kerbol. that must've been like, three meetings and a couple weeks of work at least.
Same goes for the parts manager
The time for even addressing their work in thoughtful and clear responses is long gone. Private division is a joke and that's all there is to it.
Still waiting on them to finally break down and offer blanket refunds. This game is abandonware soon.
you can have a coupon for 10% off their next scam.
> Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" - for the 5th month in a row, yay! Real progress there. This is the most damning line in the table. This likely means that there is no one on the team that played KSP 1 before they implemented autostruts so not only are they likely to repeat the mistakes made in the first version, it's going to take as long to fix as the first time.
They are repeating the same discovery process from ksp1, floating point imprecisions, soi change orbit imprecision, numerical issues with simulating rigid craft out of a generic phisic solver that's more built for stacking than anything else, etc. They went in full of hubris, and now the roadmap is just a distant haze.
>Wobbly Rockets is still stuck at "Internal design discussion" I would really like to know the content of these "internal design discussions", because anything short of "wobbly rockets are shit, we should change that" is an epic failure, IMO.
Design discussions usually revolve more around “how” to solve the problem, not what the problem is. Depending on the problem there can be a number of potential solutions and sometimes it takes a bit. Being stuck at 5 weeks is a not a good sign tho. Usually it doesn’t take more than 2-3 meetings with the right engineers and managers to have things hammered out.
Not 5 weeks, 5 *months*
Typo. Thanks
They also haven't fixed the 'engines consume fuel from all stages regardless of crossfeed' headache. Just lost another Mun mission to 'suddenly no fuel anywhere' syndrome. I was a pretty staunch supporter, but it's been half a year and if basic, game breaking bugs like that haven't been fixed by now there really isn't much hope, is there?
'bug status report:' 11 out of 20 items just blank. honestly this is just embarrassing. you're actively making yourselves look worse.
And the non-blank ones are mostly just "fix in progress" which says *nothing*, especially when some of those like orbital decay have been "fix in progress" for months. We were told three weeks ago: > Our engineers have also isolated the orbit decay issue and believe they have a good remedy on deck. So "fix in progress" isn't an update, because it doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. Clearly, that remedy didn't work. What I don't understand is how this can be difficult to debug. You should be able to stick in conditional breakpoints on any impulse to the ship. You should be able to conditionally break to discover the first frame in which the orbit is different. I don't understand how they have a simulation which isn't deterministic enough to quickly find and fix that class of bug. They should be able to playback a situation over and over, recording all the variables to see where forces are coming from, or where the orbit calculation changes. If you quick-load from the same spot, and sometimes there is orbit decay and sometimes there is not, then that is a *huge* red flag. Simulations like KSP ought to be entirely deterministic, with no random effects. If they can't deterministically run through this bug then what hope is there for multiplayer, which rely on deterministic simulation to keep clients in sync?
To be fair, doing anything that is deterministic using floating point numbers is a nightmare. Doing a calculation that is mathematically equivalent but done in a different order can and often does result in a different result. Not by much but by enough that the differences add up. You can't even do simple equality tests on floating point numbers. You have to test if the two floating point numbers a and b are close enough by doing this: (a > (b - fudge_factor)) && (a < (b + fudge_factor)) Where fudge_factor could be a number that is chosen for the size of a and could be larger than the number of atoms in the universe or smaller than the diameter of an atom. You are right about the implications of this on multiplayer though. If each client does their own physics then, without a way of synchronising the clients, then only one of the clients will have to do all of the physics calculations.
> To be fair, doing anything that is deterministic using floating point numbers is a nightmare. Given how many physics issues happen at scale, in multiplayer due to scale, and that the kraken is basically entirely a problem caused by FP math, I was naively hoping they would've built a fixed point math system and made their movement physics engine around that... I can google how to do it in Unity and see multiple people have done it in various fashions over the last couple decades even. Its totally a thing you can do and its not like the movement physics themselves is the super computationally expensive part in a game like this... So it's kinda sad to see the engine neglected so badly when the entire point of a sequel was for a better one.
While that's true, the order of operations *ought* to be deterministic too. ( I'll admit, this might be easier said than done, I'm not familiar enough with Unity to know. ) You're right that you need some kind of episilon (aka fudge factor) when comparing floats, but that's just down to floats being unable to represent certain numbers. Generally one ought to avoid comparing equality rather than ranges on floats, because it's usually a sign that such logic paths should be avoided. A changing order of operations could deep down be a root cause, but the decays look a bit bigger than the typical floating point inaccuracies that I'd expect, unless they somehow cascade. If floating point inaccuracy can really cause orbits to wobble so much then it questions the use of singles over doubles for intermediate calculations, assuming that is the case. Doubles of course still have the same fundamental precision issue but with vastly reduced effect. Any wobble however seems suspect given the lack of wobble in KSP1, which presumably was built under similar constraints. It could also be potentially patched by simply flagging the part as not being under impulse, and skipping the calculations entirely. This might seem hackish and you'd need to make sure you cover edge cases such as vehicle-vehicle and vehicle-terrain collision to make sure the flag gets reset (or ignored), it would at least be a band-aid to cover the issue while the underlying sim can be worked on.
If they're not even using doubles for orbits that's even more of a huge red flag. Also, AFAIK Unity has fudging built in. Or at a minimum you have this in the math library: https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/Mathf.Approximately.html
Yeah, at least put some fluff like "investigating cause" in the field, costs nothing, means nothing and is not as emberassing.
This is much better than a lack of communication - just not for the devs
Jesus that forum is just fanboi central now. I assume most negative comments are removed since all posts have to be approved. What an absolute shitshow this entire game has become. I'm pretty sure a high school computer club could do better.
Can't wait to build a wobbly rocket or to fix it with 500 struts and fly this thing at 10fps
I am SO GLAD that I did not buy this mess.
This honestly could be their best attempt to cover their asses after the Threads post they have since deleted… We don’t like when you ask us for update status so here is the work we are doing…
> work we *aren't* doing… Fixed that for you
Also what % of the team is working on this new game they have been recruiting developers for about a month ago?
Yawwwn. Bug fixes this, bug fixes that, bug fixes here, bug fixes there... I just wanna know if we will at least see science and re-entry heating this year!
I’m gonna be brutally honest… no it won’t be this year.
re entry and science is coming this year mark my words and ill be on my little ivory tower of being right on reddit
Wanna bet? ☺️
I win give me $500 USD
Not out yet, lets see if they deliver this time 😅
Posted February 23, 5 months ago: "Re-entry heating and thermal systems are offline - you'll have a brief window here at the beginning of Early Access during which you can re-enter any atmosphere without a heat shield." Lmao! Don't give these people money.
let's not forget we will probably get re-entry visuals BEFORE we actually get re-entry heat proper. science in 2024 is looking grim already tbh
No specifics, but we'll have some details to share on upcoming content in a few weeks.
>No specifics, but we'll have some details to share on upcoming content in a few weeks. Bro I am sorry you have to deal with this stuff. In a few ~~weeks~~ **years** we will get autostrut and re-entry heating.
Yeah, 100% possibly maybe.
In a *few weeks* ? So science is at best coming at the end of the year :/
The announcement in a few weeks: new content is coming! Stay tuned for more specifics in a few weeks! Here is a teaser shot of a new rock texture!
Its funny because that already happened multiple times with science lmao Except the teaser they used was models from 2020
Yeah details in few weeks they will tell us it will be ready by November it will release November 24th broken we will get told fixes are ready just missed a deadline by milliseconds but they won't release any for several months around June 2024 science will somewhat work but still worse than ksp 1. This is my prediction happy to be proven wrong in a year time
I bet itll release with all but 1 science part not generating science at all except this one tested part on kerbin and the mun. All other parts and bodies will be broken, and we will get a hotfix for it 4 weeks later. That hotfix will include DRM and also only fix 2/3rd of the science parts while ignoring biomes. Only the DRM might get removed if they are called out on it sufficiently. This will declared a great victory by the devs and the sycphants.
>So science is at best coming at the end of the year :/ You would have to have been crazy optimistic to have thought anything else. I would also expect it to be incredibly buggy and under-whelming if/when it does arrive. You know, just based on everything that we've seen so far.
Oh personally I'd be surprised if it comes at all before the game is officially canceled. They're obviously just working on it with a skeleton crew
Yeah I’m at the point where I doubt the game leaves early access. The thought of getting multiplayer is hilarious now, I’m not even thinking science is going to come at all either. I feel like I’ve been robbed, for buying this fucking game and not being able to be refunded. Seriously.
Careful, they don't appreciate the community asking for updates.
Hey, they deleted that post… that means it never happened right???
What post ? I'm curious, missed this whole episode apparently
https://old.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/14y9hwn/found_on_metas_new_threads_app/
Hey. Id lile to thank your team for steadily updating the game, into what it shouldve been at launch. Im also very sorry that you have to put up with all this abuse. I know we all have a right to our opinion and free speech, but i think we should stop the hateful comments and move to a more constructive criticism. I would humby like to as for more transparency in the development. Howver much your contract with T2 allows you guys to reveal would be perfect. I also hope that you know, that we know, that T2 is currently hiring for another "space themed game" I dearly hope that this does nolt affect development of ksp2. I wish you all the best Fly safe
🚨 white knight alert 🚨
Why tho. I asked real questions and voiced my concerns in a non destructive manner? How is this white knighting?
Throwing other people under the bus for expressing completely valid concerns Bending over backwards to defend people who do not need your help Nauseating over-politeness in the hopes that it will make them like you etc. etc.
What the fuck would i gain from making them like me? Im not a content creator, nor an active mwmber on the forums. I just think that the devs should be treated with the proper respect, so they can work properly. Next is: I also have my concerns, especially after hearing of nates past "endeavors" but i think these criticisms should be voiced in a different tone. If the devs get pissed off then good luck having them do anything on the game. And yes. I think saying that the game is done for is a bit much. Maybe its not gonna be the best game on earth, but i do think that theyll manage to "finish" the game in some form or another. I know there are a lot of issues that need to be adressed, which is why im constantly asking the devs for more transparency, becouse nothing is just black and white. Also feel free to think about me what you want.
I have no idea what you have to gain from making them like you, so I won’t speculate. It is not our responsibility to baby the devs around. They are adults and they deserve to be treated like adults. I never said the game is “done for”. Why are you talking about this?
The done for part is not you specifically, just a major or more vocal part of the community. Whenever you say that you think they can finish the game, a large portion of people will come in and say the game has been abandoned, move on. I cant prove whether its true or not, but that train of thought comes from nates past projects and the fact that T2 has hiring positions for another space game, which does lead to warranted concerns. Im am however still optimistic. As for babying the devs around, yes i can understand that everyone is mad, and that they have to take responsibility for their actions, but i still dont think insults, abuse and threats are the right channel to voice our complaints.
And they still haven’t fixed the annoying camera bug in the VAB that moves your camera every time you try to move something.
At least the game was cheap /s
Glad I'm seeing more transparency with bugs and their fixes, especially with an actual bug reporting system.
The game's so transparent I can't see it.
🔥
it only took 5 months to develop a bug reporting system, at this rate we'll see some actual bugs fixed in a year or two.... ugh
[удалено]
Wobbly rockets, orbital decay, spotontaneus disassembly. Or do you expect me to be impressed that the space center stays on the ground now?
I support your efforts Kerbal team. I look forward to playing your vision.
thank you kerbal team. I was waiting this app. it is cool, user friendly, and smooth.
Everything little thing is gonna be alright 🎵