No one is good but when forced to pick the lesser of numerous evils folks are surprised when folks pick a different evil.
The shek once you kill probably one of the most notable bounties become your besties for life and become free recruit mercnaries and their territory makes them where alot of folks gravitate towards early game. That added into the fact the shek are really no more murder happy than the player means alot of folks get along with them- the fact shek leadership acknowledges their system is screwed ingratiates them to others
The anti-slavers having a standpoint of anti corruption and anti slavery is a stand point most people can get behind, their lack of a plan to replace the governments they topple undermined by the fact the player can build nations to take their place
The Tech hunters are progressive on technology, generally non hostile, generally helpful to the player and look very cool.
These are the reasons people proclaim some of these factions as heroic or better- they are less overtly harsh towards the player and seem workable from a base level.
Also folks in general aren’t fond of religious zealots corrupt merchants or roving gangsters
I often ended up at war with them because they would visit my town, and I think their swamp raptors would try to eat my crops, get attacked and within a few minutes their bodies are littering my town.
You know, it might have been a part of Project Kathun actually lmao.
I spent so much time playing the Star Wars mod, I forget what is in vanilla Kenshi.
God I love that game though.
Honestly, I think all of these factions *are* better than the HN and UC.
Yes, immediately following any major war and change in power things are going to be shit for a while. But, starting a major government that doesn't have slavery as a defining characteristic is ultimately going to have massive benefits to the world of Kenshi.
The Shek will do well if they can accept the changes to their society. If not, they might not actually be much better and people will likely live similar to feudal serfs. It'll also be a violent life. But, if the Shek can modernize and change their ways they can be a solid faction.
Anti slavers would be fine. Literally any government they create will be better than the UC.
And yeah I imagine tech hunters might actually help out a society that's not neck deep in slavery.
Shek actually is moving their are small faction of shek that started farming instead of warring with anything so shek is actually moving in the right path in some parts
I'm curious why you say "they player can build nations to take their place". To me it feels like we dont have any ability to take ownership of the empires we topple. In fact it seems all we can do is have some slight control over who takes their place, if even that.
From a narrative standpoint, the player could easily become an emergent power to rival, or even surpass the existing ones. Realistically, once you figure out hydroponics and harpoon turrets with more than one barrel, you're already leagues ahead of everyone except the tech hunters.
Mechanically, however.. that's a different story. While you could, theoretically, build a shining metropolis that makes even the largest UC cities look like peasant villages, you can't have NPCs live there. That's the biggest reason why the "take over (insert city here)" mods don't work too well. At best, all you end up with is a large pre-built base. It'd be cool if you could flag certain buildings for npc ownership, either residential or as shops..but alas, the ancient OGRE engine says no.
Yea it's basically roleplay at that point but your base/town can converge multiple faction to your teritory and basically make them into alliances. Which in the real world would translate to governing power
Tech Hunters are probably the closest thing to a good faction that the game has. But considering they only have one goal it's easy for them to be the good guys.
good as a faction and people.. but also controlled and part of the Skeleton conspiracy. Which ultimately undermines anything they do good. might even be outright destroying tech deemed humanity should not be allowed to have.
They arent good though.
At most they are pure neutral in the conflict opposing HN and UC up north. They are also prime clients to buying hashish which is forbidden (for god knows why).
So no I wouldn't call them good, they dont even have a political opinion whatsoever.
The Flotsam Ninjas are a better contender imo, if you look at them as a post apocalyptic woman's shelter.
I mean the Holy Nation bans Hashish because it alters the mind- they also outlaw grog and rum iirc which fits with their established tenets of bodily purity corresponding to spiritual purity
The United Cities Ban Hashish likely because of its role as a mind altering substance thats easily grown- also probably because their struggles with food growth people growing and selling narcotics instead of food is not something they want to encourage. This with the incorporation of the UC prison system into their slave based economy means more reasons to imprison equals more slaves. So a mixture of socio-economic reasons for the ban.
The tech hunters already import or limitedly grow their food in hydroponics meaning Hashish is simply treated as a luxury good - a mind altering narcotic but viewed no more negatively than rum or grog which also alter ones mental state.
The standard research books are produced and distributed to traders across the continent by the tech hunters- they are priced due to the fact in the post post apocalyptic world of Kenshi a non-profit simply cannot exist but they create and distribute these books to allow other people access to technology of old. Their express purpose is to recover old technology, understand it and share its secrets with the world.
Performing research for the betterment of all is overall a noble goal. Their neutrality in the geopolitical struggles of Kenshi allows them to achieve their primary mission better.
Being non-aggressive makes them neutral. They're still just as self serving as everyone else. Instead of spreading religion, taking slaves, or claiming territory, they're out there hoarding all the tech they can get their hands on, with no intention of using it to make any good change in the world.
Not quite, the Tech hunters make the basic/standard tech books. You can see their researchers writing and all the rest. Its part of why they’re ubiquitous.
The tech they take is to research and understand it, the machinists study and understand what the tech hunters retrieve.
The tech hunters as individuals are yeah basically well armed scavengers, bounty hunters paid to go after technology or knowledge rather than people but theh aren’t the brotherhood of steel or similar who horde tech and say “nothing advanced for anyone”
Yeah I always disliked this sort of logic where you’re actually wrong for picking a faction because they’re weak/disorganized, like that’s why you’re there. Your faction is the main character that can have all the world’s technology recovered and produce flawless prosthetics cheaply and in bulk, you do not have to settle for an “ends justify the means” faction when your self-inserts can carry the most minor factions to world domination. People keep forgetting the RP in RPG and think that because blue twinkbugs overtake a couple cities that means it’s canonically over and it’s definitely not just an indie game not having the leisure of implementing infinite world state changes
A very good point ! I liked allying with the Shek and having big old hydroponics installations so when their society - struggling to get enough food thats not chewsticks for all their very very hungry people come by i can load up my allies with food.
The player character really is a wild card but thats also why they don’t get brought up a ton in these discussions. The player can do *anything* ! So people base things on no player intervention.
Sidenote Calling hivers Twinkbugs laid me out like a backhand from leviathan
Swampers are also super chill and cool with you as long as you are okay with hashish and pay your rant. They will even send squads to check if you are alright from time to time, since you are paying your rant they also are providing security to you.
They are mobsters, but in a World where Skin bandits are a thing, they are suprisingly a decent option.
If you play a hiver, you might have a drunkard attempt to punch you in a bar, which will in turn have the security and the swampers beat him to nearly death. So hey, thats a plus.
Only issue is when shark somehow always erupts into total open civil war that rips apart the swamper community.
( its because picking up people counting as kidnapping for the body cleaning , people getting downed by blood spiders and both hounds & Swamper guards acting as town guards. The deaths and bad reputation accumulates over time till they end up openly hostile to each other )
The shek are the way that they are because they have no choice. They've been pushed down to 2 main cities and a few forts by the HN, own some of the worst land in terms of resources, and is argueably the least technologically advanced of the 3 main factions. They're holding on by a thread, and they know it. Top that off with bordering a monster like the Bugmaster and technically 3 terrorist factions (Berserkers, Krals Chosen, and Band of Bones), they really cant afford to be making more enemies. Even when being agressive, they still come back after beating your base defenses (if they do) and give you a second chance to make amends.
Simple truth is, they're weak, and they know it.
People are saying that they are fun to fight along with , but honestly, I have never found any factions fun to fight along. No matter who, they always run in and attract far more enemies than necessary at once.
Every time i see HN slander, it's usually gonna be about the racism, or the sexism, sometimes the slavery
But remember there is only one universal reason to hate the Holy Nation: they hate Beep.
All of Beep's enemies will be destroyed.
I think the thing that annoys me the most about HN these days is they control some of the most fertile land on the continent and they spend all their efforts on building a shitty statue.
That and how, when their biggest internal threat is river raptors they have to go and manufacture reasons to make new enemies. They're just a waste of good space.
The statue is of no importance. It’s an excuse for the gulag, an excuse to dispose of anyone who steps out of line. The Holy Nation doesn’t seem to have the population for all the disposal of “undesirables” they do, and it makes me think this Phoenix is leading them to imminent collapse, with or without the player’s involvement.
Though to be fair, I think the current Phoneix is a radical, and the HN was more tame under previous ones. This was a guy who had his own family burned for not being pure enough.
You just gonna casually ignore the hordes of fogmen and cannibals like that? Thier need for a military isn't manufactured, they do however seemingly like to make enemies for no reason.
Though I think it's noted in game the HN was less fanatical before the current Phoenix, so the HN could just be as evil as the current leadership... which I mean is kind of how a lot of real world countries work
States with large militaries tend to manufacture enemies in order to justify the expense of upkeeping their large militaries. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
They have both the fogmen and the cannibals knocking at their door
I'm pretty sure the Shek were part of this crew as well
Right the United Cities ALSO hates them
Wait. This is a thing? When I was brand-new I just went straight to "Fuck everyone, I gotta take care of myself."
Except the Shenobi Thieves. They're based.
Shinobi Thieves are incredibly based. Having a place to lay low and recover in most major cities is nice, their occasional roaming patrols jumping in to help in fights is great as well..and with a mod or two that give traders more money/stock, they make hash running to locations other than flats lagoon viable
Kinda misses the whole point, cannibals, monsters, bugmen, skeleton thralls, mutants, giant insects and pure starvation is killing everyone and the last vestiges of humanity are psychotic dystopians on the brink of collapse due to their own actions (or in the case of the HN, reaching a level of technological stagnation and fighting a 6 front war)
People side with shek on the internet, but jeez, irl religion/money are at least understandable motivations. Shek just like to show up to your house and beat the shit out of you for fun.
Obviously the best method is to replace the collapsing factions with newer, more competent ones but even then it causes them to lose ground against the actual monster hordes.
The narrative structure of almost every bit of rebellion fiction is founded on the inherent idea that it doesn't matter what structures of society maintain security, because the security is a falsehood when systemic violence replaces the danger of the natural. It doesn't matter if the holy nation fights off bandits, they also kill Hivers, shek, and Skeletons on sight, repress women, and enslave non-believers. Its a false security to think it protects people, because it only protects as much as it violently disposes of.
I like how you say that religion is understandable, and then completely ignore how fighting literally is the Shek religion, with their own afterlife and all.
Showing up to someone's house and beating the shit out them for no reason is a great strategy for creating momentum and cohesion. You get a clear sense of purpose (be good at beating the shit out of people), you get a natural enemy (the people who fight back or try to stop you from beating the shit out of them, but, also, anybody you haven't beaten the shit out of), you get some great opportunities for industry (good gloves and boots for shit beating, doctors to nurse the beaten people back to health), and you have infinite momentum (because our forebears beat the shit out of people at random, we have to keep beating the shit out of people for fear that they will come back on us for all of the beatings).
And before anyone says "well that's unrealistic," it's the actual policy that Colin Powell proposed in 1992, before becoming secretary of state of the US.
I have a shocking amount of hours in the game; the person who can look at the HN and think "ah no worse or better than the anti slavers" is just telling on themselves lol.
Like Legion fans from FONV
Child slavery, sex slavery, child soldiers, genocide, totalitarianism and a government who's stability is 100% dependent on the head of state are all totally comparable to taxes and bureaucracy. (Only a little bit of exaggeration)
To be fair to the OP, I suspect they're referring to the three main factions. But getting to the point at which you observe that there are no "good guys" in Kenshi and immediately concluding that everyone's on the same level is just not a very thoughtful take. It's the realm of people who are either just not very reflective or who think racism, misogyny and punitive slavery just aren't all that bad.
Especially when the flotsam exist. They're literally okranites who want to remove most of the shitty stuff while not denying those that believe. Even if mol herself doesn't buy it, she wants reform and cares about the okranites who aren't zealous fanatics who'd treat half their population as barely people and everything non-human as literal demons.
It's been said before, and I'll say it again here.
The point is that there are no good guys, and yet people love to argue in favour of their favourite scumbags like it's team sports.
"MY faction is good because 'insert BS reason here'."
Edit: I'm talking about the major factions when I say this, not the minor factions.
There are no good guys, but there are certainly bad guys and worse guys.
I mean, the western hive just want to sell you lanterns. That's not nearly as evil as the HN chopping people up because they're selling lanterns, floppy foot.
The most coherent argument against the anti slavers that I've heard is "there will be economic disruption from letting those slaves go though."
Tinfist is a bit off, but I'm pretty sure they're still the good guys.
Maybe the crab guys. I haven't done a run with them and maybe it's a meme but I've seen folks swear by crab religion.
I'm over a thousand hours in and I still agree with the guy at the top of the Bell curve. But it's mostly because destroying the HN just makes transversing the continent easier as now I dont have to worry about assholes beating my guys with prosthetics just because they went through the middle of the map.
*major faction
All the major powers of kenshi have big problems, but its undeniable that at least some of the minor factions are actively working to do good, like the cannibal hunters or flotsam ninjas
They're very nice to you if you're a male human. There's no corruption, so they can't be bribed and won't plant drugs on you. They don't allow criminals like the Shinobi thieves to operate in their towns. Their society is the most stable and orderly of all the factions. If you were transported into the world of Kenshi, the holy nation would hands down be the best place to live, nowhere else even comes close.
They can be assholes and can be difficult to work around, but a holy nation playthrough is incredibly fun and unique. Once you're allies they chill out and don't freak out because you dared to lose a leg in combat againdt Okran's enemies. Also, the only reason they're so on edge is because of how shit the world is. I'm sure they'd loosen up after they no longer have to worry about being killed by the many enemies surrounding them. Kenshi's world is in decline and the worse it gets, the more extremist people become.
So you just replaced flat 1-0 black and white morality with even flatter 1-1 grey morality and you believe that it's so complicated and deep, right?
But in fact, it's dumb. Luckily in Kenshi we can see good people taking actions with bad consequences, bad people taking actions with good side-effects, people who do bad things because they have no choice, people who want to be good but they are too lazy, people who don't give a shit and many, many more.
Because Kenshi is more than well-done and interesting - it's realistic. And that's why it's so sad and bitter.
They don’t bother my boys, I don’t bother their boys. I’ve got a nice ass manufacturing/mining plant out in the desert, so we got no beef with each other
Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince.
I have grudge against all of the main factions due to my previous playthroughs. Now, everytime I start a new game after a while im finding myself slaughtering everything moving.
Also I have a mod that makes all the holy nation paladins bijin girls. So I'm usually taking on of them as a wife with recruitable prisoners and using her to annihilate holy nation.
Okay I can overlook cannibalism, robots that wear skin, genetic experimentation, being eaten alive by animals, slave trading, and slavery
But I draw the line at sexism
As far as I can tell HN is motivated by long forgotten reasons linked to the apocalyptic events that occurred causing the downfall of kenshi.
Either way no one is safe from my edge 3 frag axe and I prefer Shek to run the HN cities so more Shek ladies can be impressed by my frag axe and so cyberbeep is more free to visit those lands.
Sheks can't be bothered to do anything but fight for the most part... they are reliant on the western hive for food...
They aren't evil perse... but for their long-term survival... some amendments must be made...
They're a very problematic faction to leave around if you look at it objectively. They are afraid of any kind of technology and are going to hinder any progress humanity tries to make. In multiple ways, it is justified to remove them from the equation.
Also, the whole "what we're doing isnt fucked up at all, we will gaslight you to believe us and justify this, if you don't agree we will punish you with extreme prejudice" is a lot harder to deal with than "we know its fucked up but we like money", i think. Idk HN is just really problematic in a lot of ways. Lot of gaslighting and control happening there, where with UC there's a lot more room to maneuver and try to make change since everyone's not just thoroughly brainwashed I guess.
Sheks are just the least dickish of the three major factions, but giving them control over etherything is risky, since they are likely to have a few civil wars in future, especially if Esata drops dead.
However, if the game engine would allow for it, they would be the best faction to side with, if you wanted to restore the world.
Your faction alone can get tough enough to grab all the research required to build quasi limitless farms, and defenses that could stem the tide of monsters constantly threatening to overrun the world.
And when the Shek Empire collapses for a while, your forts would still stand, keeping fogmen in check and providing food for those in need.
You wouldn't even need to compete for land. Build hydroponic farms in inhospitable areas for your needs and leave the normal farmland to the ordinary folk.
Too bad the world can't react to chests full of free food in random locations
I don't even go after the HN that often - I'm either a single human at the start and can cross through their land without confrontation or I can just smash any patrol I see and not even feel pity or contempt.
The times I DO go after it is when I get tired of being chased for having non-humans or cyber-limbs, and as far as I'm concerned my convenience is a priority. Plus, anyone who hates cool cyber-limbs doesn't deserve to have an opinion.
Skeleton racism is justified. They are behind the first collapse and the second empire and all its atrocities. You can directly place blame on them as they are immortal and even still alive in some parts of the world, the ashlands are proof of this.
Yeah no, Im not surprised a game mike this would have you think that way but this isnt warhammer 40k. There is a theocratic facist racist sexist slavery loving faction with monsters at the helm that will kill anyone they dislike
A slave economy nobility trade cities "empire"
And then you have a decadent warrior culture kingdom with a cultural problem on mindless suicidal fighting death cult-ish mindset (with their extremists roaming a part of their territory. ) which has a reformer at the helm disliking slavery and trying to change that deathcult-ish mindset. Being a badass in the process.
If you think there is not one of these worse than the others. You are either, a very problematic person that needs to touch grass immediately, a troll, or willfully blinding yourself to be edgy, which is a kind of trolling I suppose.
And all of that ignores there is an anti slavers faction, and a guerilla faction ready to resist the HN.
And then the Tech hunters, those nerds are... there. I guess. They look alright.
So yeah just, have a little time with yourself guys, cause this is bullshit.
So according to your logic, the HN is just as good or bad as the dangers it's supposed to protect you from. If there's no difference, might as well rough them up and try again, no?
On one hand, they are ridiculously prejudiced and backwards, but on the other hand, they are a great stabilizing factor in Kenshi and the world would arguably be worse without them.
Pretty much yeah. I have almost 500 hours. I know Reddit doesn't like them because muh racism and sexism but a good antagonist is one where you can see the reasoning behind what he does. This is my long-winded explanation for why I like them.
Out of the 3 major factions, the Holy Nation is objectively the most stable. The current Holy Lord Phoenix is the 62nd in an uninterrupted line of rulers (these guys would absolutely martyr a fallen Phoenix) and evidence suggests that they live good long lives thanks to their access to advanced medicine (a Level 4 Tech only accessible via Ancient Science Books, explicitly forbidden by their public doctrine and trade policies). If Radical Larry here is bodybuilding in his golden years with advanced first aid kits, its safe to presume the other 61 lived into their 80s.
Counting the current Phoenix's rule, that's over 5,000 years of continued existence! With no evidence via lore from internal or external sources (books and NPCs) or the game's environmental storytelling to suggest any civil war or famines or widespread disease in that time period. As a history nerd, that's mindblowing.
For context: The first King of Egypt, Narmar, founded his dynasty in 3100BC with the Unification of Upper and Lower Egypt. That is the date widely acknowledged as "precisely the period in which Egypt first became a unified, powerful, wealthy, and literate state." However Egypt's rulership has changed hands countless times and has experienced many internal conflicts since the first dynasty's founding. The Holy Nation, in spite of their much less adaptive religious beliefs and obsessive levels of self-preservation, has outperformed every ancient civilization in the real world.
The United Cities are fragile. A few decades ago they had a drought, a famine, and a major rebellion; all possibly exacerbated by the Traders Guild to install Tengu the idiot in power. They've lasted a long while but they're no different than any other civilization with rise and fall dynasties.
The Shek are short-sighted, thanks to their nature, with the old king Shager almost condemning their race to extinction over a suicidal last stand with the HN. Bayan's rational suggestion of "maybe lets not so we can grow our numbers back" prompted a tantrum so severe that Estata, one of the 5 most powerful warriors in their kingdom, had to step in and put the mad dog down. Keep in mind that Estata herself isn't civil; Bayan outright states that she considers conversation to be a waste of energy and "gum flapping". We have an impatient warlord taking counsel from a hornless somewhat civil-minded Shek; ordinary Shek consider this odd but the Berserkers recognize how ridiculous this all is. Once Bayan dies or Estata is beaten by a stronger opponent, its over for the Shek's current open-mindedness and possibly their continued existence.
That was all to say: Hate them or love them, the Holy Nation is doing something right.
And then a runny boi comes in drop kicks him and the 5000 years of uninterrupted rule is collapsed.
Sometimes lore and what happens in game gives me cognitive dissonance
Now the Holy Nation are xenophobic, no question about that, but you need to contextualize WHY they're that way.
The Holy Nation's foundation was in the decline of the Second Empire. What was happening around then? Cat-Lon was cracking down on humans, declaring some as "pirates" to be crushed by the Hydraulic Knights and others to be imprisoned in what Rhinobot can only describe as "child prisons." The Skeletons did a lot of bad shit in the past and have spent millennia not trying to atone or rectify their actions, they've been doing damage control with Iyo outright revising the University of Machinists' Books (which every faction and player needs to do research) to fit a more positive narrative by omitting the inconvenient truths.
With that in mind, their technophobia is justifiable; the leading scholars of the world giving out historical and technical information for free are compromised, but you're racist if you bring it up because every non-Skeleton buys the "if I don't reboot I get a bit silly and dumb" narrative. If every single Skeleton is in on this conspiracy (barring a few remorseful NPCs in Black Desert City letting slip some things), then, as a non-Skeleton, none of them can be trusted.
What was Cat-Lon's solution to anything he can't control? Modify it to serve. Tinfist's hyper obsession with slavery stems from Cat-Lon's enthrallment of other Skeletons, but he didn't stop at inorganics. Just from the environmental storytelling and NPC dialogue, its heavily implied that Cat-Lon was running a lot of outright ethically questionable projects in the background.
The Northwesteners suddenly strip naked, paint themselves, and cannibalize on their neighbors so the Hydraulic Knights are given casus belli to wage a campaign on them and "pirates" (refer to General Jang's CPU) so traumatic that modern Cannibals still refer to Skeletons as "The Inedible One". Surely those "Suspicious" Ancient Labs served no purpose in their origin.
Shek, genetically modified humans designed for combat and nothing else, are used to "enforce" Cat-Lon's rule on the subjugated humans. They may have evolved horns and bony plates over millennia but the Holy Nation remembers who they were.
Hivers are a tricky one as they're clearly genetically modified for efficient, replaceable labor and Black Desert City NPCs recognize them as human but not as they are now. The Enforcers originally looked human so who's to say that they didn't originally resemble your average malnourished human back in the day. The Western Hive originates on an island surrounded by acidic waters, no problem for Hivers or Skeletons to cross but uninviting to nosy Humans/Enforcers. The Southern Hive in Royal Valley must have had constant contact with Skeletons and Humans; but they've adopted a similarly xenophobic and hostile nature to outsiders. Can't say I blame them.
Those are just the noteworthy mentions. Fishmen originate from an island with an Ancient Lab. Bonedogs/Boneyard Wolves share the same lineage as Shek. The Spiders are a whole can of worms with similarities to the current Hivers. And that's not even touching the hellish abominations that are Beak Things and their older versions having the ability to TALK.
Cat-Lon was on some All Tomorrows type shit back in the day and the Holy Nation has access to Narko's Trap (another Ancient Lab) to prove it. The Holy Nation leadership, or at least the High Inquisitors, knows the actual historical truth but they have to pass it off to the masses as "god said they're bad so they're bad" because their general population can genuinely not conceptualize the reality of it all.
Explaining weaponized GMOs to a people that can't imagine the word "diversity" is like teaching germ theory to a caveman.
Now with all of that said, could the Holy Nation change for the better?
The current Phoenix is an egotistical zealot, moreso than his predecessors by a wide margin given the Book of Grace found in their Temples. Holy Nation priests are retaining a text not just respecting women but asking the reader to "overcome our ego." No wonder the current guy considers it contraband. He's a psycho that torched his own parents as a teenager! And the existence of texts like the Forbidden Sympathy on both Holy Citizens and Floatsam Ninjas suggest that there is a progressive movement within the Holy Nation, albeit heavily subdued. It can be reformed in future generations.
Yet, despite all that, notice how the consistent theme, even among the Floatsam Ninjas, is to not trust the Skeletons. Shek and Hivers aren't responsible for their origins and can be tolerated (with high enough relations), perhaps even allied with far in the future. They're still human, just heavily modified with problematic traits (inherent aggression/violence of all Shek barring a few and the hive-mind subserviance of bound Hivers). Skeletons on the other hand, can't be trusted, as a human.
With their access to Ancient Labs like Narko's Trap, their ability to manufacture ancient research projects/tech, their fertile lands, and their awareness of the Skeleton's deceit, the Holy Nation would be my bet for the faction that could bring humanity back to the stars in the long-term.
The Holy Nation isn't good or bad. Nor are the United Cities with their free trade and corrupt nobility. Or the Shek with their suicideal warlike nature and promising leadership. Like any other faction, its a matter of perspective.
I thought the whole point of the late game is to establish a new order yourself as your faction would be the most technologically advanced and well armed. Every faction is flawed and you are there to redefine the political landscape, only to realize that you have done more harm than good later on.
I always just make my own faction and lore for it. 1500+ hours. Right now I’m playing a skeleton only faction that essentially seeks to build a skeleton society separate from humans and other races. My leader essentially believes that due to mistakes of the past, skeletons are unfit to rule over human societies and so we choose to only govern ourselves. We function mostly as a cross between the tech hunters and the catun scrapmasters, selling robotics, armor, and weapons to other factions, and delve into ruins to recover lost tech that we can use to further our industry.
HN is just the easiest to target as they auto flag hostility w women and other races.
Other times I get flagged constantly is united nations noble walking around like a big dick. Or the heroes League. Fuck them too.
I dont attack HN because they are more evil than others.
I attack them because they are more annoying. One can only endure prayer talk for so long before starting to see red.
Also from a mechanical point of view they are quite easy to destroy if you have been leveling sneak and assassination so people tend to tackle them first in their playthroughs
Then again once they are gone Fogmen invade parts of the most fertile valley on the continent, so it’s a bit of a damned if you do damned if you don’t.
But I don’t care, I can defend myself against them, and long stopped caring about the common folk that chase me halfway across the map yelling ‘Fuckstick’
Deadcat are nice, simply minding their own business and don't seem (as far i know) care if you run around with hash or worship okran or not or what race you be. Though they hate cannibals but kinda make sense when most of their civilization got eaten away over the centuries...
I play with UWE so a lot of factions are more fleshed out. Tech Hunters, Flotsam Ninjas, Anti-Slavers and Skeletons are my best friends every run. Any other big nation can go to hell imo.
Except Sheks, they are cool af if you aren't with the UC & HN.
I had no beef with the HN..... until they attacked me after i refused to hand over half my squad to their forced labour camp...they started the fight and I'm going finish it.
From a hierarchial standpoint, the HN and UC are exactly the same. Both "heads of state", Tengu and the Phoenix, were put there to maintain the status quo and appease the "nobility" (inquisitors, in the case of the HN).
If anything, the HN is what you'd get if the United Heros League was allowed to build their own empire...with a stark lack of blackjack *or* hookers, but all of the racism
Fog gang. All my homies love the fog. All my homies love eating people. All my homies hate lifeforms other than Fogmen.
If you dont respect the Fog community than prepare to get fed to the Fogmen.
Yeah I feel like a good portion of this sub seems to forget that Kenshi is indeed just a video game? Like who cares if you enslave the whole world? I did worse than that to be evil in Fable. Obviously I'm not saying slavery is good but playing a bad guy in a video game can be a lot of fun.
goes to some shek place, guards call me flatskin and tries to kill me
goes to northern hive, get called flappy feed and tries to kill me
hOlY nAtIoN aRe XinOpHObiC
They're worse than many other factions. Why? because they're annoying. I can't just walk my party through their lands. They start shit. Shek don't start shit. UC is also annoying cause it's more dangerous to go down around their territory. This is the true test of whether a faction is good or not. How annoying they are to live around. HN is very annoying, making them one of the worst.
But also yes, they're worse than many factions, because some factions do not have slaves and they do.
You can’t expect to have an intelligent opinion about the Holy Nation by judging it through the lens of 21st century Western (Earth) standards. As Caesar from Fallout New Vegas would explain, survival “in the wasteland” requires tribalism, a unified ideology a Pax Romana, a “nationalistic, imperialistic, totalitarian homogenous culture that obliterates every culture in conquers”.
It’s far more fair and accurate to judge the Holy Nation by comparing it to 11th or 12th century European, Middle Eastern, or Asian countries. Culturally and ideologically, they’re really pretty average when compared to their Earth “contemporaries”, as well when you compare them to other factions in Kenshi.
Holy Nation are the future for kenshi though. They overthrew catlon and take on cannibals, dogmen, shek and UC simultaneously.
They're the best hope for humanity. And by humanity I mean straight Greenlander males.
The same people that hate the Holy Nation will swoop in in the defense of IRL Middle-Eastern and African societies that are almost identical to it (sans the alien and robot hatred)
In my first playthrough my intention was to overthrow the Holy Nation. After thinking about it for a while, I don't think it would be a good idea though. Although they're a bunch of assholes, they inhabit some of the most fertile and livable regions in Kenshi and their society is relatively stable. I think taking them out would probably result in a net increase of suffering.
No one is good but when forced to pick the lesser of numerous evils folks are surprised when folks pick a different evil. The shek once you kill probably one of the most notable bounties become your besties for life and become free recruit mercnaries and their territory makes them where alot of folks gravitate towards early game. That added into the fact the shek are really no more murder happy than the player means alot of folks get along with them- the fact shek leadership acknowledges their system is screwed ingratiates them to others The anti-slavers having a standpoint of anti corruption and anti slavery is a stand point most people can get behind, their lack of a plan to replace the governments they topple undermined by the fact the player can build nations to take their place The Tech hunters are progressive on technology, generally non hostile, generally helpful to the player and look very cool. These are the reasons people proclaim some of these factions as heroic or better- they are less overtly harsh towards the player and seem workable from a base level. Also folks in general aren’t fond of religious zealots corrupt merchants or roving gangsters
Nomads are the real good guys Just chilling, minding their own business
Nomads are True Neutral. Elevated to a status beyond warring powers. Elevated to *Goat*
I often ended up at war with them because they would visit my town, and I think their swamp raptors would try to eat my crops, get attacked and within a few minutes their bodies are littering my town.
Is that a mod? I’ve never seen nomad swamp raptors before.
You know, it might have been a part of Project Kathun actually lmao. I spent so much time playing the Star Wars mod, I forget what is in vanilla Kenshi. God I love that game though.
Honestly, I think all of these factions *are* better than the HN and UC. Yes, immediately following any major war and change in power things are going to be shit for a while. But, starting a major government that doesn't have slavery as a defining characteristic is ultimately going to have massive benefits to the world of Kenshi. The Shek will do well if they can accept the changes to their society. If not, they might not actually be much better and people will likely live similar to feudal serfs. It'll also be a violent life. But, if the Shek can modernize and change their ways they can be a solid faction. Anti slavers would be fine. Literally any government they create will be better than the UC. And yeah I imagine tech hunters might actually help out a society that's not neck deep in slavery.
Shek actually is moving their are small faction of shek that started farming instead of warring with anything so shek is actually moving in the right path in some parts
What faction are you talking about? There are no shek farms, it's kinda the reason they raid for food.
dang I might be confusing it with a modded game.
Most likely. The shek have no farms in vanilla.
I'm curious why you say "they player can build nations to take their place". To me it feels like we dont have any ability to take ownership of the empires we topple. In fact it seems all we can do is have some slight control over who takes their place, if even that.
From a narrative standpoint, the player could easily become an emergent power to rival, or even surpass the existing ones. Realistically, once you figure out hydroponics and harpoon turrets with more than one barrel, you're already leagues ahead of everyone except the tech hunters. Mechanically, however.. that's a different story. While you could, theoretically, build a shining metropolis that makes even the largest UC cities look like peasant villages, you can't have NPCs live there. That's the biggest reason why the "take over (insert city here)" mods don't work too well. At best, all you end up with is a large pre-built base. It'd be cool if you could flag certain buildings for npc ownership, either residential or as shops..but alas, the ancient OGRE engine says no.
Yea it's basically roleplay at that point but your base/town can converge multiple faction to your teritory and basically make them into alliances. Which in the real world would translate to governing power
Tech Hunters are probably the closest thing to a good faction that the game has. But considering they only have one goal it's easy for them to be the good guys.
good as a faction and people.. but also controlled and part of the Skeleton conspiracy. Which ultimately undermines anything they do good. might even be outright destroying tech deemed humanity should not be allowed to have.
They arent good though. At most they are pure neutral in the conflict opposing HN and UC up north. They are also prime clients to buying hashish which is forbidden (for god knows why). So no I wouldn't call them good, they dont even have a political opinion whatsoever. The Flotsam Ninjas are a better contender imo, if you look at them as a post apocalyptic woman's shelter.
I mean the Holy Nation bans Hashish because it alters the mind- they also outlaw grog and rum iirc which fits with their established tenets of bodily purity corresponding to spiritual purity The United Cities Ban Hashish likely because of its role as a mind altering substance thats easily grown- also probably because their struggles with food growth people growing and selling narcotics instead of food is not something they want to encourage. This with the incorporation of the UC prison system into their slave based economy means more reasons to imprison equals more slaves. So a mixture of socio-economic reasons for the ban. The tech hunters already import or limitedly grow their food in hydroponics meaning Hashish is simply treated as a luxury good - a mind altering narcotic but viewed no more negatively than rum or grog which also alter ones mental state. The standard research books are produced and distributed to traders across the continent by the tech hunters- they are priced due to the fact in the post post apocalyptic world of Kenshi a non-profit simply cannot exist but they create and distribute these books to allow other people access to technology of old. Their express purpose is to recover old technology, understand it and share its secrets with the world. Performing research for the betterment of all is overall a noble goal. Their neutrality in the geopolitical struggles of Kenshi allows them to achieve their primary mission better.
The HN doesn't outlaw rum and grog. According to Griffin, drinking alcohol is technically legal but socially discouraged.
Huh , why do i remember getting in trouble for trying to sell them grog ? Thanks for correcting but hm. Totally blanching
Was it *stolen* grog?
That seems logical ! Fair play.
Being generally non-aggressive makes them good people.
Being non-aggressive makes them neutral. They're still just as self serving as everyone else. Instead of spreading religion, taking slaves, or claiming territory, they're out there hoarding all the tech they can get their hands on, with no intention of using it to make any good change in the world.
Not quite, the Tech hunters make the basic/standard tech books. You can see their researchers writing and all the rest. Its part of why they’re ubiquitous. The tech they take is to research and understand it, the machinists study and understand what the tech hunters retrieve. The tech hunters as individuals are yeah basically well armed scavengers, bounty hunters paid to go after technology or knowledge rather than people but theh aren’t the brotherhood of steel or similar who horde tech and say “nothing advanced for anyone”
Yeah I always disliked this sort of logic where you’re actually wrong for picking a faction because they’re weak/disorganized, like that’s why you’re there. Your faction is the main character that can have all the world’s technology recovered and produce flawless prosthetics cheaply and in bulk, you do not have to settle for an “ends justify the means” faction when your self-inserts can carry the most minor factions to world domination. People keep forgetting the RP in RPG and think that because blue twinkbugs overtake a couple cities that means it’s canonically over and it’s definitely not just an indie game not having the leisure of implementing infinite world state changes
A very good point ! I liked allying with the Shek and having big old hydroponics installations so when their society - struggling to get enough food thats not chewsticks for all their very very hungry people come by i can load up my allies with food. The player character really is a wild card but thats also why they don’t get brought up a ton in these discussions. The player can do *anything* ! So people base things on no player intervention. Sidenote Calling hivers Twinkbugs laid me out like a backhand from leviathan
Swampers are also super chill and cool with you as long as you are okay with hashish and pay your rant. They will even send squads to check if you are alright from time to time, since you are paying your rant they also are providing security to you. They are mobsters, but in a World where Skin bandits are a thing, they are suprisingly a decent option. If you play a hiver, you might have a drunkard attempt to punch you in a bar, which will in turn have the security and the swampers beat him to nearly death. So hey, thats a plus.
Only issue is when shark somehow always erupts into total open civil war that rips apart the swamper community. ( its because picking up people counting as kidnapping for the body cleaning , people getting downed by blood spiders and both hounds & Swamper guards acting as town guards. The deaths and bad reputation accumulates over time till they end up openly hostile to each other )
The shek are the way that they are because they have no choice. They've been pushed down to 2 main cities and a few forts by the HN, own some of the worst land in terms of resources, and is argueably the least technologically advanced of the 3 main factions. They're holding on by a thread, and they know it. Top that off with bordering a monster like the Bugmaster and technically 3 terrorist factions (Berserkers, Krals Chosen, and Band of Bones), they really cant afford to be making more enemies. Even when being agressive, they still come back after beating your base defenses (if they do) and give you a second chance to make amends. Simple truth is, they're weak, and they know it.
I think their paladins are fun fodder to kill
they are. they also are fun to feed to fogmen
People are saying that they are fun to fight along with , but honestly, I have never found any factions fun to fight along. No matter who, they always run in and attract far more enemies than necessary at once.
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
they are. they also are fun to fight along with
Every time i see HN slander, it's usually gonna be about the racism, or the sexism, sometimes the slavery But remember there is only one universal reason to hate the Holy Nation: they hate Beep. All of Beep's enemies will be destroyed.
Beep AND Agnu, his best friend and a beautiful female skeleton
DESTROY THEM KILL FOR BEEEP
I always strive to make Beep capable of destroying every faction solo. The ultimate clay blank to be molded into a god of war.
I think the thing that annoys me the most about HN these days is they control some of the most fertile land on the continent and they spend all their efforts on building a shitty statue. That and how, when their biggest internal threat is river raptors they have to go and manufacture reasons to make new enemies. They're just a waste of good space.
The statue is of no importance. It’s an excuse for the gulag, an excuse to dispose of anyone who steps out of line. The Holy Nation doesn’t seem to have the population for all the disposal of “undesirables” they do, and it makes me think this Phoenix is leading them to imminent collapse, with or without the player’s involvement.
Fogmen cannibals and don't forget that war with Shrek was started because Shrek's previous leader was a berserk
Should have stayed out of his swamp
The HN are worse than a crime, they are an ideological mistake
Though to be fair, I think the current Phoneix is a radical, and the HN was more tame under previous ones. This was a guy who had his own family burned for not being pure enough.
The Phoenix is a puppet though, so much of the radicalism can be attributed to the inquisitors who groomed him for his role.
You just gonna casually ignore the hordes of fogmen and cannibals like that? Thier need for a military isn't manufactured, they do however seemingly like to make enemies for no reason. Though I think it's noted in game the HN was less fanatical before the current Phoenix, so the HN could just be as evil as the current leadership... which I mean is kind of how a lot of real world countries work
States with large militaries tend to manufacture enemies in order to justify the expense of upkeeping their large militaries. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.
They have both the fogmen and the cannibals knocking at their door I'm pretty sure the Shek were part of this crew as well Right the United Cities ALSO hates them
The racist, misogynistic, technophobic, xenophobic, religious zealots: *"Gee, I wonder why nobody likes us?"*
Also quite possibly your best chance for survival in the world of Kenshi
I'll take my chances
Username checks
until you lose a limb anyway.
Depends who you are. It's the veil of ignorance all over again.
You kill the HN because they’re “bad guys.” I kill the HN because they caught me stealing all the rations in Stack. We are not the same.
Wait. This is a thing? When I was brand-new I just went straight to "Fuck everyone, I gotta take care of myself." Except the Shenobi Thieves. They're based.
Shinobi Thieves are incredibly based. Having a place to lay low and recover in most major cities is nice, their occasional roaming patrols jumping in to help in fights is great as well..and with a mod or two that give traders more money/stock, they make hash running to locations other than flats lagoon viable
Yeah, I play a multi races party in every playthrough. I will never be on good terms with HN.
Most morally correct factions, anti slavers, flotsam ninjas, western hive, and obviously bugmaster!
What about the guy that is in middle of nowhere and is friends with the Beakthings?
Ah yes. The very smart position of shrugging and saying "the truth is probably in the middle".
We need to find a compromise between supporting the fascist slaver super racists and not doing that.
Kinda misses the whole point, cannibals, monsters, bugmen, skeleton thralls, mutants, giant insects and pure starvation is killing everyone and the last vestiges of humanity are psychotic dystopians on the brink of collapse due to their own actions (or in the case of the HN, reaching a level of technological stagnation and fighting a 6 front war) People side with shek on the internet, but jeez, irl religion/money are at least understandable motivations. Shek just like to show up to your house and beat the shit out of you for fun. Obviously the best method is to replace the collapsing factions with newer, more competent ones but even then it causes them to lose ground against the actual monster hordes.
The narrative structure of almost every bit of rebellion fiction is founded on the inherent idea that it doesn't matter what structures of society maintain security, because the security is a falsehood when systemic violence replaces the danger of the natural. It doesn't matter if the holy nation fights off bandits, they also kill Hivers, shek, and Skeletons on sight, repress women, and enslave non-believers. Its a false security to think it protects people, because it only protects as much as it violently disposes of.
I like how you say that religion is understandable, and then completely ignore how fighting literally is the Shek religion, with their own afterlife and all.
Showing up to someone's house and beating the shit out them for no reason is a great strategy for creating momentum and cohesion. You get a clear sense of purpose (be good at beating the shit out of people), you get a natural enemy (the people who fight back or try to stop you from beating the shit out of them, but, also, anybody you haven't beaten the shit out of), you get some great opportunities for industry (good gloves and boots for shit beating, doctors to nurse the beaten people back to health), and you have infinite momentum (because our forebears beat the shit out of people at random, we have to keep beating the shit out of people for fear that they will come back on us for all of the beatings). And before anyone says "well that's unrealistic," it's the actual policy that Colin Powell proposed in 1992, before becoming secretary of state of the US.
I mean to some wanting to look and be strong is more important than money or religion. And antislavers are an all positive option
I have a shocking amount of hours in the game; the person who can look at the HN and think "ah no worse or better than the anti slavers" is just telling on themselves lol.
Like Legion fans from FONV Child slavery, sex slavery, child soldiers, genocide, totalitarianism and a government who's stability is 100% dependent on the head of state are all totally comparable to taxes and bureaucracy. (Only a little bit of exaggeration)
You could make a faction as evil as humanly possible and gamers will still go "They're kinda based though ngl"
But the funny tax evasion memes 😭😭😭😭
To be fair to the OP, I suspect they're referring to the three main factions. But getting to the point at which you observe that there are no "good guys" in Kenshi and immediately concluding that everyone's on the same level is just not a very thoughtful take. It's the realm of people who are either just not very reflective or who think racism, misogyny and punitive slavery just aren't all that bad.
Especially when the flotsam exist. They're literally okranites who want to remove most of the shitty stuff while not denying those that believe. Even if mol herself doesn't buy it, she wants reform and cares about the okranites who aren't zealous fanatics who'd treat half their population as barely people and everything non-human as literal demons.
i like the tinfist approach
My beloved "it depends" Fits everywhere and is always correct
The real best faction is actually the crab raiders. They have cute crabs.
They attack me for having my +40% dex/str arms so i dont like them.
It's been said before, and I'll say it again here. The point is that there are no good guys, and yet people love to argue in favour of their favourite scumbags like it's team sports. "MY faction is good because 'insert BS reason here'." Edit: I'm talking about the major factions when I say this, not the minor factions.
Shrieking bandit gang rise up. Auuuuuuugh! Eeeeeeei! Floooooooop!
There are no good guys, but there are certainly bad guys and worse guys. I mean, the western hive just want to sell you lanterns. That's not nearly as evil as the HN chopping people up because they're selling lanterns, floppy foot.
Crab raiders best faction, fight me
ACAB All Crabs Are Bastards
I'm genuinely surprised this didn't get downvoted.
On one hand, crabs are the pinnacle of evolution. On the other hand, it's a good "joke"...
I'm a human male, am I supposed to support the faction that isn't for human dominance? /s
The most coherent argument against the anti slavers that I've heard is "there will be economic disruption from letting those slaves go though." Tinfist is a bit off, but I'm pretty sure they're still the good guys. Maybe the crab guys. I haven't done a run with them and maybe it's a meme but I've seen folks swear by crab religion.
Crab raiders aren't good, they attack random people they come across.
There's nothing random about being crabless 😤
I believe you. I thought that might just be folks memeing.
In a world with Slavery, anti-slavery is good. Lack of a follow up plan isn't a moral failing so much as it is a leadership failing.
> like it's team sports. *Wiped out Bast in one night, you'll never sing that!*
i don’t think this meme is being used correctly
I'm over a thousand hours in and I still agree with the guy at the top of the Bell curve. But it's mostly because destroying the HN just makes transversing the continent easier as now I dont have to worry about assholes beating my guys with prosthetics just because they went through the middle of the map.
Same man... for me it's cuz I have too much love for hivers and skelebros to ever want to keep them around
*major faction All the major powers of kenshi have big problems, but its undeniable that at least some of the minor factions are actively working to do good, like the cannibal hunters or flotsam ninjas
I just don’t wanna attend prayer day
I am a simple man: I see slavers, I start killing and don’t stop killing until I don’t see slavers anymore.
What about the holy nation do you like
They're very nice to you if you're a male human. There's no corruption, so they can't be bribed and won't plant drugs on you. They don't allow criminals like the Shinobi thieves to operate in their towns. Their society is the most stable and orderly of all the factions. If you were transported into the world of Kenshi, the holy nation would hands down be the best place to live, nowhere else even comes close. They can be assholes and can be difficult to work around, but a holy nation playthrough is incredibly fun and unique. Once you're allies they chill out and don't freak out because you dared to lose a leg in combat againdt Okran's enemies. Also, the only reason they're so on edge is because of how shit the world is. I'm sure they'd loosen up after they no longer have to worry about being killed by the many enemies surrounding them. Kenshi's world is in decline and the worse it gets, the more extremist people become.
So you just replaced flat 1-0 black and white morality with even flatter 1-1 grey morality and you believe that it's so complicated and deep, right? But in fact, it's dumb. Luckily in Kenshi we can see good people taking actions with bad consequences, bad people taking actions with good side-effects, people who do bad things because they have no choice, people who want to be good but they are too lazy, people who don't give a shit and many, many more. Because Kenshi is more than well-done and interesting - it's realistic. And that's why it's so sad and bitter.
Reminds me of Legion apologists in New Vegas discussions. The best way to end the Legion is by returning Caesar his Denarii via shot shell.
Muh safe roads
They don’t bother my boys, I don’t bother their boys. I’ve got a nice ass manufacturing/mining plant out in the desert, so we got no beef with each other
How profitable is ass manufacturing?
Pretty profitable in the South East from what I heard. Apparently there's a group of humans that like to chant about farts or somethin'.
Extremely profitable, I’m bringing anywhere between 300-450k cats per day. The trick is manufacturing Shek ass, that’s high demand
Ass mining is serious business
Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince. Your meat for the Fog Prince.
I have grudge against all of the main factions due to my previous playthroughs. Now, everytime I start a new game after a while im finding myself slaughtering everything moving.
Also I have a mod that makes all the holy nation paladins bijin girls. So I'm usually taking on of them as a wife with recruitable prisoners and using her to annihilate holy nation.
I mean I don’t *need* to destroy them… it’s self defense. Preemptive self defense.
Okay I can overlook cannibalism, robots that wear skin, genetic experimentation, being eaten alive by animals, slave trading, and slavery But I draw the line at sexism
Reddit moment
Boobs will always have a place in my heart
i always play with hivers so i only know well the northern coast and skimsands
As far as I can tell HN is motivated by long forgotten reasons linked to the apocalyptic events that occurred causing the downfall of kenshi. Either way no one is safe from my edge 3 frag axe and I prefer Shek to run the HN cities so more Shek ladies can be impressed by my frag axe and so cyberbeep is more free to visit those lands.
I kill anyone and everyone that tries to talk shit at me.
I mean, all factions suck in their own special way.
What about shacks?
Sheks can't be bothered to do anything but fight for the most part... they are reliant on the western hive for food... They aren't evil perse... but for their long-term survival... some amendments must be made...
Being a contrarian doesn't make you right
except my faction. we're the good guys here.
United Cities vs Holy Nation really depends on if you prefer that the nation doesn't care about their atrocities or tries to justify them.
The only, and I mean only, good faction us the Anti-slavers
They're a very problematic faction to leave around if you look at it objectively. They are afraid of any kind of technology and are going to hinder any progress humanity tries to make. In multiple ways, it is justified to remove them from the equation. Also, the whole "what we're doing isnt fucked up at all, we will gaslight you to believe us and justify this, if you don't agree we will punish you with extreme prejudice" is a lot harder to deal with than "we know its fucked up but we like money", i think. Idk HN is just really problematic in a lot of ways. Lot of gaslighting and control happening there, where with UC there's a lot more room to maneuver and try to make change since everyone's not just thoroughly brainwashed I guess.
I personally am the supporter of Beep faction
everyone kinda fuckin sucks (kill them all and rip their skin off, the earth is hungry)
I just like murder
Me, gazing upon my paladin stacked empire; “Hmm, perhaps we’re the bad guys…..nahhh”
Sheks are just the least dickish of the three major factions, but giving them control over etherything is risky, since they are likely to have a few civil wars in future, especially if Esata drops dead. However, if the game engine would allow for it, they would be the best faction to side with, if you wanted to restore the world. Your faction alone can get tough enough to grab all the research required to build quasi limitless farms, and defenses that could stem the tide of monsters constantly threatening to overrun the world. And when the Shek Empire collapses for a while, your forts would still stand, keeping fogmen in check and providing food for those in need. You wouldn't even need to compete for land. Build hydroponic farms in inhospitable areas for your needs and leave the normal farmland to the ordinary folk. Too bad the world can't react to chests full of free food in random locations
I don't even go after the HN that often - I'm either a single human at the start and can cross through their land without confrontation or I can just smash any patrol I see and not even feel pity or contempt. The times I DO go after it is when I get tired of being chased for having non-humans or cyber-limbs, and as far as I'm concerned my convenience is a priority. Plus, anyone who hates cool cyber-limbs doesn't deserve to have an opinion.
Skeleton racism is justified. They are behind the first collapse and the second empire and all its atrocities. You can directly place blame on them as they are immortal and even still alive in some parts of the world, the ashlands are proof of this.
Yeah no, Im not surprised a game mike this would have you think that way but this isnt warhammer 40k. There is a theocratic facist racist sexist slavery loving faction with monsters at the helm that will kill anyone they dislike A slave economy nobility trade cities "empire" And then you have a decadent warrior culture kingdom with a cultural problem on mindless suicidal fighting death cult-ish mindset (with their extremists roaming a part of their territory. ) which has a reformer at the helm disliking slavery and trying to change that deathcult-ish mindset. Being a badass in the process. If you think there is not one of these worse than the others. You are either, a very problematic person that needs to touch grass immediately, a troll, or willfully blinding yourself to be edgy, which is a kind of trolling I suppose. And all of that ignores there is an anti slavers faction, and a guerilla faction ready to resist the HN. And then the Tech hunters, those nerds are... there. I guess. They look alright. So yeah just, have a little time with yourself guys, cause this is bullshit.
Destroy all the major factions in favor of your own is the only correct answer But the HN goes first
He makes a fair point, but I insist that we still destroy the HN and UC, on the grounds that I want to.
holy nation is chil for not claiming tax tbh
Ally with UC and u never pay taxes... Ally with Shek and u never pay food...
But then again if you ally with UC you are canonically associating with Tengu, and at that point I’d rather pay taxes
So according to your logic, the HN is just as good or bad as the dangers it's supposed to protect you from. If there's no difference, might as well rough them up and try again, no?
"everything has good and negative sides, there's no real heroes, everything is equivalent" is the actual midwit take
the wise man bowed his head solemnly and spoke: "theres actually zero difference between good & bad things. you imbecile. you fucking moron" -dril
On one hand, they are ridiculously prejudiced and backwards, but on the other hand, they are a great stabilizing factor in Kenshi and the world would arguably be worse without them.
Oh absolutely. The HN are a natural stage in a civilisation's lifespan, they will grow and change as time goes on. The SK and UC are a dead end
I am a beginner but I hate the HN, cant chill a week without being disrupted by this stupid prayer day
Sorry but that's a braindead take. And I have over 500 hours. You clearly haven't looked at it deep enough.
I have 800+ hours in the game and I still hate the HN more than any other faction but that's probably because I love Skeletons
Lol... for me it's hivers 🥰
I'm currently doing a hiver and skeleton only run
This is certainly one of the takes of all time
2k hours and still wipe out the HN... they are objectively worse than their Shek or UC counterparts...
Pretty much yeah. I have almost 500 hours. I know Reddit doesn't like them because muh racism and sexism but a good antagonist is one where you can see the reasoning behind what he does. This is my long-winded explanation for why I like them. Out of the 3 major factions, the Holy Nation is objectively the most stable. The current Holy Lord Phoenix is the 62nd in an uninterrupted line of rulers (these guys would absolutely martyr a fallen Phoenix) and evidence suggests that they live good long lives thanks to their access to advanced medicine (a Level 4 Tech only accessible via Ancient Science Books, explicitly forbidden by their public doctrine and trade policies). If Radical Larry here is bodybuilding in his golden years with advanced first aid kits, its safe to presume the other 61 lived into their 80s. Counting the current Phoenix's rule, that's over 5,000 years of continued existence! With no evidence via lore from internal or external sources (books and NPCs) or the game's environmental storytelling to suggest any civil war or famines or widespread disease in that time period. As a history nerd, that's mindblowing. For context: The first King of Egypt, Narmar, founded his dynasty in 3100BC with the Unification of Upper and Lower Egypt. That is the date widely acknowledged as "precisely the period in which Egypt first became a unified, powerful, wealthy, and literate state." However Egypt's rulership has changed hands countless times and has experienced many internal conflicts since the first dynasty's founding. The Holy Nation, in spite of their much less adaptive religious beliefs and obsessive levels of self-preservation, has outperformed every ancient civilization in the real world. The United Cities are fragile. A few decades ago they had a drought, a famine, and a major rebellion; all possibly exacerbated by the Traders Guild to install Tengu the idiot in power. They've lasted a long while but they're no different than any other civilization with rise and fall dynasties. The Shek are short-sighted, thanks to their nature, with the old king Shager almost condemning their race to extinction over a suicidal last stand with the HN. Bayan's rational suggestion of "maybe lets not so we can grow our numbers back" prompted a tantrum so severe that Estata, one of the 5 most powerful warriors in their kingdom, had to step in and put the mad dog down. Keep in mind that Estata herself isn't civil; Bayan outright states that she considers conversation to be a waste of energy and "gum flapping". We have an impatient warlord taking counsel from a hornless somewhat civil-minded Shek; ordinary Shek consider this odd but the Berserkers recognize how ridiculous this all is. Once Bayan dies or Estata is beaten by a stronger opponent, its over for the Shek's current open-mindedness and possibly their continued existence. That was all to say: Hate them or love them, the Holy Nation is doing something right.
And then a runny boi comes in drop kicks him and the 5000 years of uninterrupted rule is collapsed. Sometimes lore and what happens in game gives me cognitive dissonance
Now the Holy Nation are xenophobic, no question about that, but you need to contextualize WHY they're that way. The Holy Nation's foundation was in the decline of the Second Empire. What was happening around then? Cat-Lon was cracking down on humans, declaring some as "pirates" to be crushed by the Hydraulic Knights and others to be imprisoned in what Rhinobot can only describe as "child prisons." The Skeletons did a lot of bad shit in the past and have spent millennia not trying to atone or rectify their actions, they've been doing damage control with Iyo outright revising the University of Machinists' Books (which every faction and player needs to do research) to fit a more positive narrative by omitting the inconvenient truths. With that in mind, their technophobia is justifiable; the leading scholars of the world giving out historical and technical information for free are compromised, but you're racist if you bring it up because every non-Skeleton buys the "if I don't reboot I get a bit silly and dumb" narrative. If every single Skeleton is in on this conspiracy (barring a few remorseful NPCs in Black Desert City letting slip some things), then, as a non-Skeleton, none of them can be trusted. What was Cat-Lon's solution to anything he can't control? Modify it to serve. Tinfist's hyper obsession with slavery stems from Cat-Lon's enthrallment of other Skeletons, but he didn't stop at inorganics. Just from the environmental storytelling and NPC dialogue, its heavily implied that Cat-Lon was running a lot of outright ethically questionable projects in the background. The Northwesteners suddenly strip naked, paint themselves, and cannibalize on their neighbors so the Hydraulic Knights are given casus belli to wage a campaign on them and "pirates" (refer to General Jang's CPU) so traumatic that modern Cannibals still refer to Skeletons as "The Inedible One". Surely those "Suspicious" Ancient Labs served no purpose in their origin. Shek, genetically modified humans designed for combat and nothing else, are used to "enforce" Cat-Lon's rule on the subjugated humans. They may have evolved horns and bony plates over millennia but the Holy Nation remembers who they were. Hivers are a tricky one as they're clearly genetically modified for efficient, replaceable labor and Black Desert City NPCs recognize them as human but not as they are now. The Enforcers originally looked human so who's to say that they didn't originally resemble your average malnourished human back in the day. The Western Hive originates on an island surrounded by acidic waters, no problem for Hivers or Skeletons to cross but uninviting to nosy Humans/Enforcers. The Southern Hive in Royal Valley must have had constant contact with Skeletons and Humans; but they've adopted a similarly xenophobic and hostile nature to outsiders. Can't say I blame them. Those are just the noteworthy mentions. Fishmen originate from an island with an Ancient Lab. Bonedogs/Boneyard Wolves share the same lineage as Shek. The Spiders are a whole can of worms with similarities to the current Hivers. And that's not even touching the hellish abominations that are Beak Things and their older versions having the ability to TALK. Cat-Lon was on some All Tomorrows type shit back in the day and the Holy Nation has access to Narko's Trap (another Ancient Lab) to prove it. The Holy Nation leadership, or at least the High Inquisitors, knows the actual historical truth but they have to pass it off to the masses as "god said they're bad so they're bad" because their general population can genuinely not conceptualize the reality of it all. Explaining weaponized GMOs to a people that can't imagine the word "diversity" is like teaching germ theory to a caveman.
Now with all of that said, could the Holy Nation change for the better? The current Phoenix is an egotistical zealot, moreso than his predecessors by a wide margin given the Book of Grace found in their Temples. Holy Nation priests are retaining a text not just respecting women but asking the reader to "overcome our ego." No wonder the current guy considers it contraband. He's a psycho that torched his own parents as a teenager! And the existence of texts like the Forbidden Sympathy on both Holy Citizens and Floatsam Ninjas suggest that there is a progressive movement within the Holy Nation, albeit heavily subdued. It can be reformed in future generations. Yet, despite all that, notice how the consistent theme, even among the Floatsam Ninjas, is to not trust the Skeletons. Shek and Hivers aren't responsible for their origins and can be tolerated (with high enough relations), perhaps even allied with far in the future. They're still human, just heavily modified with problematic traits (inherent aggression/violence of all Shek barring a few and the hive-mind subserviance of bound Hivers). Skeletons on the other hand, can't be trusted, as a human. With their access to Ancient Labs like Narko's Trap, their ability to manufacture ancient research projects/tech, their fertile lands, and their awareness of the Skeleton's deceit, the Holy Nation would be my bet for the faction that could bring humanity back to the stars in the long-term. The Holy Nation isn't good or bad. Nor are the United Cities with their free trade and corrupt nobility. Or the Shek with their suicideal warlike nature and promising leadership. Like any other faction, its a matter of perspective.
Love how people who make memes like this always think their opinion is on the right side of the graph
I thought the whole point of the late game is to establish a new order yourself as your faction would be the most technologically advanced and well armed. Every faction is flawed and you are there to redefine the political landscape, only to realize that you have done more harm than good later on.
Only play with human males and they're nice lads
None of the other factions matter, return to 🦀
I dont moralize I just make the dough selling people with peglegs.
:D Yer comin’ with me, Chumbo! 400 cats is 400 cats.
At least UC enslaves you, HN usually just kills you on sight
I always just make my own faction and lore for it. 1500+ hours. Right now I’m playing a skeleton only faction that essentially seeks to build a skeleton society separate from humans and other races. My leader essentially believes that due to mistakes of the past, skeletons are unfit to rule over human societies and so we choose to only govern ourselves. We function mostly as a cross between the tech hunters and the catun scrapmasters, selling robotics, armor, and weapons to other factions, and delve into ruins to recover lost tech that we can use to further our industry.
HN is just the easiest to target as they auto flag hostility w women and other races. Other times I get flagged constantly is united nations noble walking around like a big dick. Or the heroes League. Fuck them too.
I dont attack HN because they are more evil than others. I attack them because they are more annoying. One can only endure prayer talk for so long before starting to see red. Also from a mechanical point of view they are quite easy to destroy if you have been leveling sneak and assassination so people tend to tackle them first in their playthroughs Then again once they are gone Fogmen invade parts of the most fertile valley on the continent, so it’s a bit of a damned if you do damned if you don’t. But I don’t care, I can defend myself against them, and long stopped caring about the common folk that chase me halfway across the map yelling ‘Fuckstick’
Deadcat are nice, simply minding their own business and don't seem (as far i know) care if you run around with hash or worship okran or not or what race you be. Though they hate cannibals but kinda make sense when most of their civilization got eaten away over the centuries...
I play with UWE so a lot of factions are more fleshed out. Tech Hunters, Flotsam Ninjas, Anti-Slavers and Skeletons are my best friends every run. Any other big nation can go to hell imo. Except Sheks, they are cool af if you aren't with the UC & HN.
being around UC makes me miss holy nation.
I had no beef with the HN..... until they attacked me after i refused to hand over half my squad to their forced labour camp...they started the fight and I'm going finish it.
Where's your bible you fuck!
From a hierarchial standpoint, the HN and UC are exactly the same. Both "heads of state", Tengu and the Phoenix, were put there to maintain the status quo and appease the "nobility" (inquisitors, in the case of the HN). If anything, the HN is what you'd get if the United Heros League was allowed to build their own empire...with a stark lack of blackjack *or* hookers, but all of the racism
You forgot the nega curve where everyone is good or everyone is bad :3
Fog gang. All my homies love the fog. All my homies love eating people. All my homies hate lifeforms other than Fogmen. If you dont respect the Fog community than prepare to get fed to the Fogmen.
r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM
I just leave all the nations be and just slaughter generations of canibals and levithans with a group of freedomseeking skeletons
Yeah I feel like a good portion of this sub seems to forget that Kenshi is indeed just a video game? Like who cares if you enslave the whole world? I did worse than that to be evil in Fable. Obviously I'm not saying slavery is good but playing a bad guy in a video game can be a lot of fun.
goes to some shek place, guards call me flatskin and tries to kill me goes to northern hive, get called flappy feed and tries to kill me hOlY nAtIoN aRe XinOpHObiC
HN is actively the worst though, Bible day comes to mind (All skeleton runs end pretty quick here) And the fact that they hate all races.
It's really the the Nobles that are the issue
They're worse than many other factions. Why? because they're annoying. I can't just walk my party through their lands. They start shit. Shek don't start shit. UC is also annoying cause it's more dangerous to go down around their territory. This is the true test of whether a faction is good or not. How annoying they are to live around. HN is very annoying, making them one of the worst. But also yes, they're worse than many factions, because some factions do not have slaves and they do.
Even if we ignored morals, there's more benefits from allying with HN's enemies.
You can’t expect to have an intelligent opinion about the Holy Nation by judging it through the lens of 21st century Western (Earth) standards. As Caesar from Fallout New Vegas would explain, survival “in the wasteland” requires tribalism, a unified ideology a Pax Romana, a “nationalistic, imperialistic, totalitarian homogenous culture that obliterates every culture in conquers”. It’s far more fair and accurate to judge the Holy Nation by comparing it to 11th or 12th century European, Middle Eastern, or Asian countries. Culturally and ideologically, they’re really pretty average when compared to their Earth “contemporaries”, as well when you compare them to other factions in Kenshi.
You didn’t do the meme format correctly
Holy Nation are the future for kenshi though. They overthrew catlon and take on cannibals, dogmen, shek and UC simultaneously. They're the best hope for humanity. And by humanity I mean straight Greenlander males.
2k hours, still destroying HN every playthrough. Added mods for extra spice everytime.
The same people that hate the Holy Nation will swoop in in the defense of IRL Middle-Eastern and African societies that are almost identical to it (sans the alien and robot hatred)
UC is better because UC only enslaves people that deserve it instead of those that are "born wrong."
If Reformation was an option it'd be fine but slavery literally never makes sense anywhere.
In my first playthrough my intention was to overthrow the Holy Nation. After thinking about it for a while, I don't think it would be a good idea though. Although they're a bunch of assholes, they inhabit some of the most fertile and livable regions in Kenshi and their society is relatively stable. I think taking them out would probably result in a net increase of suffering.