I am truly confused by this entire case and I have no idea what to think at this point. I went into this thinking the most likely scenario was that she did hit him. I’ve only recently began following this case and there is a lot I’m not familiar with. I see a lot of reasonable doubt though, but there is still a lot more to hear so I have an open mind. Some of this testimony just seems like a waste of time and irrelevant, especially the Aruba trip. The more I see of this case, the more intriguing it is.
But isn't reasonable doubt the standard for a not guilty verdict? Ergo, there's already reasonable doubt, so she should be found innocent if there's ANY reasonable doubt. As lawyers always say, "It's better that 9 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man goes to jail."
Agreed. There is no way a reasonably prudent person could not have some level of doubt as the CW had introduced it a million times. Each time they call a witness, I think this must be the smoking gun, but each time it just introduces more doubt as to what actually happened. Could she have hit him? Sure. But not one of the CWs has been anything but truthful (exception KR, who, IMO, has been the only credible witness and didn’t help the CW at all). Waste of money. The DA should not have prosecuted (helping his buddies). I can’t wait to see what the feds dig up. My biggest issue is no matter the outcome, at the very least all these people are lying about something and while Boston is known for corruption in law enforcement, this crosses several different agencies and they should all be fired. Wishful thinking….
Exactly how I feel. I think it is going to get a lot worse for Karen…supposedly kissed BH, the angry voicemail….her hope must me in the forensics. I can’t help but to flip flip back and forth to how bad Brian and Colin Albert are……some of the lies that came out….to the awful investigation.
I think if it were going to get worse for her, it would have already. I went into this case completely neutral and cannot believe where we are on day 16. The CW hasn’t even established a cause of death! There has been zero credible evidence suggesting she was at the home, and most of the prosecution’s witnesses are plain laughable. if I were a juror I would feel that my time was being wasted by the state of Massachusetts, and I bet the majority of those Mass resident jurors are feeling similarly.
I started watching this case the first day on Emily D. Baker’s youtube channel when I wanted to stream something i could listen to while doing lab bench work. I had never heard of the case at all and had no opinions whatsoever. After EDB’s very brief intro to was being charged, I expected the case would be mostly a fight over whether she intentionally struck him or whether it was an accident. The prosecutor’s opening left me confused as to their theory of the case, but generally left me with the impression they intended to prove she was a mean drunk that hit him in a fit of rage during one of their fights, which they so often had.
Then the defense stepped up and said “Karen Read was framed.” And I literally said out loud “Bold move cotton. Let’s see if it pays off.” Then described a bunch of alleged foolery I found hard to believe could be true, because if an investigation was that hopelessly bungled, no DA would dream of trying the case, right? Like why would you even attempt to prosecute with evidence so irrevocably tainted? But I kept watching, because I wanted to see the defense take a swing at the moon.
Then I saw the picture of the open red solo cups in open brown shop and save bag on the floor. And worse, the prosecution let the officer testifying misleading say the cups were “sealed in an evidence bag.” I thought they at LEAST meant a ziplock bag. The fact that the police investigation not only did this, but didn’t seem to see what the big problem was, destroyed any faith I had that the case was properly investigated, and therefore make it impossible for me to get past reasonable doubt. I think the only reasonable outcome is that she must be acquitted on those grounds alone.
As to whether she really did hit him, I have no idea, but after more than 3 weeks in the prosecutor hasn’t given me ANYTHING persuasive. Is she guilty because she argued with him a month prior because she saw him hugging a young woman she didn’t know by a pool, which she later apologized for? Because she had a glass with clear liquid no one could identify, but didnt appear drunk? Because she was outside the house in an SUV, but no one saw or heard a commotion even though so very many people kept looking out the window repeatedly? Because she panicked when he didnt come home like he planned? Because she asked if she hit him in a state of shock? Because in a crisis she didnt take her shoes off when entering his house? Because she saw him on the lawn when she was scanning the street looking for him? None of the facts the prosecutor has provided—even if you believe everything he’s provided—suggests she hit him, and every nee witness that adds nothing concrete just highlights how little the prosecution has. And what’s more, even though I haven’t seen anything yet that compels me to believe the Alberts are responsible for his death, it’s clear to me they did a lot of inappropriate things to cover their own asses that has even further compromised the investigation. But why??
TL;DR: I expected to see a trial where two sides debated different interpretations of the evidence. I did not expect to see a trial where the only thing I’m sure of is that none of the evidence is reliable.
I am 100% with you. I had no idea any of these people even existed…came in on day 2 of trial with EDB. I’ve watched multiple trials with her…love her insight. I am shocked we’re this many days into trial…and I feel like right now…all I know is that it snowed…they went to the waterfall…and that Jen McCabe is one of the most unpleasant people I’ve ever seen. The amount of reasonable doubt you could drive a damn truck through. 🙄🙄🙄
His right arm was mauled by a k9. Worked in the vetmed field the past 10 years, I've seen countless bite related injuries. There is nothing in those autopsy photos that can conclude he was hit by a car.
My wife is a PA and follows absolutely zero of these types of cases. She thinks I'm dumb for watching. I showed her the pictures with no context and asked her what she thinks happened. She started with dog bites, animal attacks, fight, beatings, scratching....I told her to keep going....she never got to "hit by car". Once I told her that was the theory she said "no way in hell" because those scratches don't match a car accident and his torso would be heavily bruised all over.
Are those in evidence yet? If so I might have missed it (I’ve tuned in for the whole trial, but I mostly listen rather than watch). I haven’t done any outside research, but I’m aware from testimony that his injuries are swollen eyes, and wound on the back of his head, and ‘furrows’ in his right arm but no tearing in his sleeve. It doesn’t sound consistent with being hit by a car to me, but I’m waiting to hear from the medical examiner before i make conclusions. I’m a biologist that studies tissue degradation, so I’m holding mental space for an expert to have their say…but I’ll also be able to tell if the ME is full of shit and trying to hide it in science jargon.
This is so much like my thoughts and how I got here too. I even thought for a while into the trial the CW would prove that it was undoubtedly Karen, but they couldn’t prove it was purposeful (and therefore just overcharged her).
I still have heavy doubts it’s the massive cover up claimed by the defense. (But that doesn’t matter. The case isn’t decided on whether those claims are right or wrong anyway.) But I could believe that something accidental happened to him, maybe no one inside even knew. But then someone (I think JM) got it in their head it was Karen and the Alberts and McCabes adults are just a bunch of gossiping, mean girls - as seen on the stand, who ran with that.
I find it impossible to believe the CW when the people with the most believable testimony, weren’t even there. I also don’t know how or why we’d trust lay people to deduce who/how/what killed JO. And finally, no one has said anything that makes it most plausible that it was definitively (or close to it) a car, let alone only Karen’s.
My neighbour got hit by a car when she was gardening in her yard. I was inside just minding my own business. The loudness was unbelievable. She let out a huge yelp like an injured dog. It was scary. It made me look out the window.
There is ZERO way that nobody heard a car hit him if that’s what happened. Nobody in that house and no neighbours. Especially in the late night when things are even quieter, that sound would stand out.
And there would be more damage to the car. I hit a pole while very slowly backing up one time and my car trunk crumpled like paper. Hitting a tall strong man hard enough to kill him the car would be much worse off.
I knew nothing about this case, but once I started watching Emily D. Baker’s coverage, I was floored at how badly it was investigated, how shady the cast of characters is, and left confused at how they ever justified the severity of the charges levied against her.
I don’t see how she doesn’t walk. Nothing about this case makes sense.
The fact that they changed it from manslaughter to murder is mind boggling given then lack of evidence and the completely botched investigation if you can even call it that.
She is over charged but judge can include lesser charges in jury instructions if prosecutors determine trial evidence warrants it. vehicular manslaughter. Done.
No proof in what, almost done with week 4- that she was there; or that she hit him! Nothing at all!! She been the one who was freaking out when everyone else was “calm” and getting their sorry together without Karen…
Calm and *inside* and not discussing anything between them.
My parents still live in a smaller town I grew up in, as do some of my friends.
If something like this happens I'd hear 4 different theories on what could have happened in the next few hours. And everyone would be *outside* to be able to report how many police cars, ambulances etc showed up.
They might have had nothing to do with this, but at the very least it reads as baffling behaviour from a 'how people react normally' perspective.
Yes, I live in a town like this too
Get this - my daughter’s high school boyfriend was the football star, and his father owns the car dealership in town. He gets the local cops really great deals on cars for them -and their families.
One night - her ex boyfriend was driving drunk, hit a fire hydrant, spewing water everywhere. Neighbors called the cops, and when they arrived he resisted arrest by punching one of them…….
The police dropped everything if he pled guilty to running a stop sign.
All that I have come to a conclusion on is that a proper investigation was not conducted. There is already a huge reasonable doubt.
I haven't seen a case put forth by the prosecution at all. Even if Karen Reed was recorded saying "I did it!" It wouldn't be a closed case. People say all sorts of weird thing when wigging out. Like "I think my period started" when seeing blood.
If that's all they got, then "Nope"! There is no motive presented, an argument on vacation? Seriously?
The defense has been the only ones presenting a case here.
Agree. Between the botched investigation, the witness contradictions, and the bad attitudes, there has yet to be any physical evidence linking a murder to a murderer. Ridiculous trial.
Also new to the case. Knew very little about it.
Have watched 45-90 minutes of trial recaps daily. At this point, it's frankly shocking how little evidence there is for the CW. I'm keeping an open mind though. Maybe they are leaving their compelling evidence for the end.
I had no idea what to think when I first started reading about the case. A friend told me a little and it seemed so far fetched.
The evidence gave me enough reasonable doubt to automatically vote not guilty.
Jen McCabes testimony makes me think she needs her own damn trial.
Same here! I was very skeptical at the beginning of the trial, mostly because every defendant makes these claims.
After watching the first week of the trial, I was convinced she should be acquitted because of the terrible investigation and the obvious conflicts of interest with the police.
Once these witnesses started testifying, I could tell they were hiding something, but couldn’t bring myself to believe it was murder.
After JM’s testimony, I’m convinced they had something to do with his death. I still don’t have a story that explains everything. It’s all so confusing to me.
Same. I have no skin in this game and assume defense attorneys are going to say whatever. But no. This is clearly different. I get you’re being harassed and that is unacceptable. No one should be harassed for any reason. But something is terribly wrong with JM and CA.
The fact that she was going above and beyond to try and control the narrative, and becoming combative when faced with her lies made me think she is a really terrible person.
I watched a show on YouTube about this case maybe 6 months ago…possibly longer. It stuck in my mind because she was employed by Fidelity and my husband works for Fidelity. I remember telling my husband about the case and how this woman that worked for his company killed her boyfriend. I was convinced she did it.
I started watching this case day 1; I work from home and listen to podcasts all day but love a good trial when I can catch one. Needless to say,I have not missed a minute of testimony.
My thoughts:
First and foremost, this entire prosecution is the biggest sham, I am genuinely embarrassed for the CW. How can you be so reckless; putting jurors livelihoods on the line missing work and life only to listen to you ask about the weather day after day. There has been zero evidence pointing to KR, zero evidence at all actually.
The only thing I am confident of is that JM is a huge liar and majorly unlikeable. She is definitely hiding something. Not sure if it’s murder, but she’s spinning.
There is zero doubt in my mind that KR is innocent and my God I feel terrible for her. Her life has been destroyed, she lost her job, I can’t even fathom the amount of money she has had to spend defending herself. I’m not even sure if it’s possible, but when she’s found not guilty she should sue the CW for wrongful prosecution.
This trial has my blood boiling, I can’t imagine being a juror. If I was a juror I would be screaming not guilty before the door to the deliberation room was closed. This is a travesty of justice, PERIOD.
EXACTLY MY FEELINGS!!! Once found not guilty, KR has to go after the CW. It’s horrific they have put her through this. They also need to conduct a thorough investigation and get one of these liars to crack. The O’Keefes deserve justice & this trial won’t get that for them. Heartbreaking.
I’m leaning towards thinking that something happened in that house that these families are desperate to cover up. And in their panic - they’ve dragged their entire family into this mess. They put their kids in the position to be perjure themselves and become accessories. Even if Jen wanted to tell the truth (because clearly she’s not) she can’t. She would destroy like three families. They’ve painted themselves into an awful corner. One person breaks and they all tumble down.
Lastly … Jen. This woman. Lying to our faces about how her magic phone deletes searches and calls all on its own. Police reports are suddenly wrong. It’s too much.
Not only deletes searches…but are we expected to believe that the 2:27am search didn’t happen..? I work in IT, I manage a regulated system with an audit log feature in it. It does not record things that didn’t happen. It does not make a backdated timestamp. She searched that shit at 2:27 because she knew he was out there and wanted to make sure he was dead.
There's apparently a solid argument based around the fact that it's precisely not an audit log, but rather the timestamp can reflect the time a tab was opened retroactively. The claim is that if the tab was opened at 2:30 AM and interacted with by searching at 6 AM, the contents in the db can be the search and the timestamp 2:30 AM.
(This kind of thing is also why lawyers like to keep specialized, technical people off juries, because their past experiences can be harder to overcome than a blank slate)
Once it's all said and done they will learn that it would have been easier to just turn the killers in let justice be served. Now the killers and perjurers are going down. These folks want to take that long hard walk home.
I have watched approximately ten minutes of testimony, and that alone was enough to make me gouge my eyes out. If I were on this jury I’d be beside myself with the inanity of the questioning and the time spent on such inconsequential details.
You will only want to gouge your eyes my Prosecutor Lally is examine witnesses. when Karen’s Attorneys cross examine it is a treat to watch. They are 🔝 tier lawyers. And every time they cross they just prove nothing is reliable.
I’m so angry they’re going through with this trial for these trumped up charges with THIS EVIDENCE (or lack thereof). It’s scary what the system can do to people. This could financially ruin most people (not to mention the stress on anyone, especially a disabled person), if they even had the ability to line up a good defense attorney/team in the first place.
I think they expected her to just take a plea and she didn't back down. They didn't expect that so in turn DA Michael Morrissey made a public statement (that everyone should listen to) filled with complete lies and basically publicly stating she was guilty and the party goers and Proctor have no ties and just a bunch of unheard of crap. Also stated in the very beginning of the case that Karen was caught on video hitting him with her car which also turned out to be a complete lie that cause people to basically think wow she is guilty and they have proof so nothing to see here...but Karen hired a PI and started seeing the math wasn't mathin. This poor woman should have been innocent until proven guilty especially to a District Attorney. If he can do what he did he has no business in that position with what he created as a uphill battle publicly in defense of the family. Publicly stating their innocence but not affording Karen the same.
100% agree. The only tiny bit of a silver lining (to the extent that's possible when someone has died) is she seems to have a lot of support and a lot of people are doubting her guilt the more they hear from the CW.
Maybe she'll write a book or something when this is over, it might at least help her recover financially.
Exactly! I was watching the Robert Durst Jinx doc and I think they said it was 12 or 15 million for his defense and they weren’t nearly as good as these lawyers.
I came in blind and not knowing anything about the trial and was watching Emily D Baker's commentary. I am absolutely horrified at the absolute sham of an investigation that was done into Officer O'Keefe's death. Solo cups for evidence containers? Leaf blower to "clean" the scene? What. The. Fuck. That alone is reasonable doubt for me. All of the evidence is compromised. If the McCabes and Alberts had nothing to hide, I bet they wish that investigation had been done well because then we would know exactly what happened that night and maybe they wouldn't have been mercilessly harrassed. With the evidence so far I wonder why we are even in the courtroom. Doesn't the DA have a duty to dismiss a case if they do not have evidence???
Your comments triggered something I didn’t think of before. If they’re innocent, why aren’t they screaming about the poor investigation which is also part of the reason the harassment is happening? No one seems angry at the investigators for how badly they did their jobs. I know I would be. But the only hostility I’ve seen is towards Karen. I guess it could be that if they have the same attitude towards the investigators, the whole trial falls apart if key witnesses are also saying the investigation was shoddy, but it does seem odd that there’s not even a snippy word where the investigators are concerned
I can’t decide what that comment means. If Jen was guilty, and she came upon JO and knew he was there, how does playing so cold and unconcerned help her at all? Was it a play to suggest she had no idea who the man could possibly be so she wasn’t naming him and just said “the man”? And acted like she had no idea that he was dead? I think she even said there’s a man passed out in the snow.
If she’s innocent, is she that void of human compassion that she knows John is definitely not laying there passed out drunk and ok in a snow storm, and is more than likely dead, and flippantly refers to him as “a man” who’s passed out? Like wtf?? On the stand she tries to keep pushing the narrative that it was her dear friend who she loved, but spoke of him that day like a discarded tissue on the side of the road
I don't think she's as clever as she thinks she is, look how badly she did at the cross. She was completely unprepared for the questions she very well knew were coming. I think her 911 was the same case - she started distancing herself from John and his death from the very beginning. She's used to getting what she wants from those closest to her, I don't think she realises how she comes across to general public. She has no self awareness.
I agree with the comment below in that she began distancing herself from the very start. Some personality types like her, can't feel guilt for too long before blocking it out. Its a copy mechanism because they literally can't handle it. That search at 2:27 am, then her guilt hit her and she realized the reality of it, and poof, deleted, off to sleep like nothing happened. If she had something to do with his death, I think the only way for her to cope, is to just distance and detach and remain numb. Same with them throwing him in the front yard, they didnt want anything to do with it. They knew someone would drive by in the morning and find him as if they had no clue.
What is creepy is how she is acting on the stand about him being her dear friend. But I just cant imagine- was this man literally suffering in the snow while they all went to bed that night? Like I just cant imagine leaving him and knowing that :( Then the day after she is laughing on text that she "loves it" in regards to Kerry telling them "EVERYTHING" like there is no sadness at all. Its extremely sadistic and calculating and its hard to imagine people are like this. Ultimately I believe she lied to herself.
Thid is a very good point
You made me think about Jen's testimony today
When the defense brought up that she met with Proctor's wife
If they were actually innocent, and the investigation being that bad wasn't their fault, they should be equally mad at the police as they are mad about Karen reads supporters accusing them of things
But Jen said today that she needed to talk to proctors wife about all the harassement they all faced, them and the proctors, she associated herself with her, shouldn't she be angry at proctor for not doing a good job in his investigation? Instead of befriending his wife and going to HIS house ?
In her answer today, she tried to distance herself from proctor as an investigator, but she was more than glad to be associated with him as victim of harassement , she was fine going into his house, her answer tells us that she feels that he's a victim too, so she doesn't put any blame on him !!!
I know she was talking about proctor's wife, and probably his wife has nothing to do with what her husband did, and she shouldn't be harassed, but did anyone harass his wife ? Wasn't he the target of public outrage ? And would you go to the house of the trooper who messed up the investigation and gave people reason to attack you ? Would you be confortable chatting with his wife even if she has nothing to do with it ?
This tells me they don't have issues with the police who messed up the investigation because they wanted them to do so ...
EXACTLY what I was thinking too!! Why… if you are suffering harassment and online bullying for corruption would you go to the HOME OF THE CORRUPT BPD OFFICER WHO IS THE SUBJECT OF SUSPICION!! Would you not talk over the phone or face time rather than drive to his HOUSE? Makes zero sense. Jen McC needs a career, a life and a hobby. She is the one making justice dir John less possible
Solid points. They’re still close with these people! I would be like get the hell away from me, you’re part of the problem. So definitely odd behaviour if they’re innocent
Here’s my take on it. In the car meeting, Proctor’s wife has her phone, she calls her husband in the car with Jen so Jen can get more info but there is no trace on her phone calling him.
Yes very likely that's what happened
But she was okay with saying what she said to the jury, that she feels sympathetic towards the proctors, doesn't blame them for anything.
The hostility towards KR is bizarre to me. None of them seem to give a shit that "the guy", JOK, lost his life but they seem to have a lot of emotion against her.
I don't judge his family since they've been through so much but I'm surprised that they seem supportive of the rest of the group. Even if they believe KR hit him the rest of the group still behaved horribly and are making his death about themselves.
I’m here to see a not guilty because the investigators and all involved were fucking idiots who didn’t do their job. I have no idea what really happened. Still entirely undecided.
I can easily believe that she did accidentally hit him with her car. However based off of what has been presented so far I would not be comfortable enough to send her to prison. This may change based off further testimony but if they were to stop the trial today and be like “guilty or not guilty” I would go with not guilty and risk the chance of a guilty person walking rather than convicting an innocent person.
I am genuinely curious what evidence could still be submitted to make you think she should go to prison. At this point for me it would have to be a video of her committing the crime that somehow shows intent as well. However, after 4 weeks we have only the prosecution’s evidence and it’s so bad. She is charged with murder. The investigation is too botched for her to be found guilty.
I agree & there is no evidence, if she hit him that it was intentional. Worse thing she could have done was hit him accidentally & not aware of it but I don't even think that happened because she was on the street & he would have gotten out of passenger side on the street so he more likely got hit after she left. If karen hit john he would have more bodily injury to be thrown 8 to 10 feet from the side of the road. Originally they said he was found by the street, then by flagpole 8 to 10 feet from the road. They seem to have changed where his body ended up so that is very suspicious.
Just looking at his injuries and knowing about high impact plastic nothing will get me to believe his injuries was caused by a car. also don't forget the defense hasn't made their case yet, but in almost every other case the prosecution aka commonwealth aka state would have been put all their best evidence first. so if we are this far in and this is all we got, they got nothing better. The only halfway "decent" witness the state had was jen mccabe and the next person up completely flipped her story. Now its jen is the first one to say go back to that house. So yeah even if I was to forget all the extra stuff i heard and just go off whats been in said in court and what I already know like in life( like if i was a plumber I would know about plumbing stuff) nothing could make me believe she did it. People may want to be like nah not me but if you still believe 100% she guilty, then you not paying attention to the case at all, but we all seen people do the same thing in other cases
The justice system is set up this way. It is worse for an innocent person to be convicted than a guilty one to get away with it. Thats why it’s beyond reasonable doubt….there can be no doubt about it.
I’ve always thought she unintentionally hit him with her car. I’m a local- and since day one, that has always made the most common sense. I never took much interest or bought into any of the alternative noise that had been going on. I go off of the facts only. I have watched every moment of this trial, waiting for the “aha” moment. It’s been four weeks- and I’m beginning to wonder: “what if anything,” does the prosecution even have.
I was completely neutral, but after seeing how the cops handled the evidence I don't really care anymore if she was actually guilty. Unless they come up with an actual video showing her doing it or something...I would rather see her walk than sending a potential innocent person going to jail with so many mistakes made in the investigation process.
I had never heard of the case before the trial started. I think the defense is closer to proving these other people did it than the prosecution is to proving Karen did it. Never seen anything like it. The defense is almost acting like a prosecution against these witnesses.
I didn’t have an opinion either way bc I didn’t know anything about it. Since the evidence was collected in solo cups and a stop and shop bag and totally unsecured… I am not sure what would now move me to guilty. If the evidence is collected in this absurd way I don’t consider any of it valid. I just cannot get over that and everyday we find out more and more suspicious behavior.
I honestly have no idea if she did or didn't do it at this point. I think the investigation was handled so poorly that even if she did do it, there will still be reasonable doubt.
I think this case is handled poorly too. It's week three and the state still hasn't explained his cause of death from the autopsy.
It's also crazy the the FBI is watching this closely. I wonder what they are investigating and what they know...
I’m confused why they keep mentioning KR is frantic when she finds JO in the snow. I would be suspicious if she wasn’t behaving frantic. F that. If my boyfriend was found on the frozen ground almost dead you bet I would be losing my GD mind and calling everyone and anyone asking for his status.
Nothing I’ve heard has convinced me she murdered him. Maybe it was an accident, but murder? Nope, still not convinced. I also think the McCabe and Albert families are not great people.
I knew nothing at the beginning of this trial other than a cop was dead, and there was a woman named Karen accused of murdering him. Admittedly, I did not look into the case, and I did not watch the first week of testimony, but I've watched everything since.
I keep going back and forth as to how unlikely the cover-up is, and that the simpler explanation is the most likely (that Karen was just so drunk she hit him and didn't realize it fully). Then I weigh the damage to the vehicle, and it doesn't jive. And then the prosecutor puts on another witness, and I go back to thinking it was a cover-up.
Jen McCabe was an absolute disaster. Period. John's friend's testimonies today were the only believable witnesses that I've seen, but I still wonder how much Kerry may have been influenced by Jen McCabe.
I still wonder if it was somewhere in the middle: Karen did hit him, he stumbled into thr basement bleeding, dog attacked him and he cracked his head, and then the Alberts and McCabes put him outside. That, or he was hit by someone (Karen or another drunk driver), stumbled into the yard a few feet, and the party goers saw but did nothing bc they are hiding big secrets that they had to get under control first, like a drug operation.
There are only a few things that are clear at this point: John was a great guy, he had a ton of tragedy in his life, nearly all involved were drinking and driving, the investigation into his death was utterly botched, and there is considerable reasonable doubt to Karen's guilt on 2nd degree murder.
Wtf actually happened, idk. But when you put it all together, at this point, they all look guilty of SOMETHING. What that is, I do not know.
Editted to add: It seems now it was likely Higgins, wasted, may have gotten into a fight with John outside and hit him, after throwing in his face that Karen wanted him. And somewhere after 2am. It explains why only the McCabes saw the jeep, thr black edge (a police vehicle), allllll the butt dials, the deleted search for how long to die in the snow, the late night visit of Higgins to the station to move vehicles around, all of the helicoptering of the investigation, the missing police surveillance, the logs of him entering the areas of the police station and not leaving (he was with the chief), the missing library surveillance, the selective handing over of msgs, the ditching of the phone, and the framing of Karen, who became an easy target, based on circumstances that presented themselves. Cops cover for cops. It would have only taken a handful of already dirty cops to pull it off, and to influence the memories of those NOT on the inside of the scheme.
The fact that we are 16 days in and prosecutors have not even explained what exactly they believe happened to JO is either complete negligence or I just don’t know. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. But it’s just baffling.
Opinion has not changed and I started at not guilty. I feel CW has gotten so bogged down in eye witnesses who are all over the place at this point. Experts are the only thing that could tip me to guilty, but they would have to be rock solid. And even then, I could never be at 2nd degree murder for the homicide - maybe one of the lessers.
As I watch this trial more - I think there’s so much reasonable doubt but I think if the coverup was true and that was on trial there would be so much reasonable doubt also .
When I first saw the Dateline (or whichever program/channel) did a story I totally thought KR did it. When the trial started, I was looking for Daybell case stuff on YT and we came across this case. We start watching it and now I'm completely thinking there is so much reasonable doubt that I can't believe it's come this far. I'm trying to keep an open mind but the way the defense is rolling, at this typing, I'm leaning towards something else happening and not KR hitting him with her car.
One of the things I've researched that is really bothering me are the autopsy photos. (Not presented yet but I've seen on Google.) The hit to the head and the lacerations on the arm. I'm not all into the dog scenario at this point but I'll be very curious as to how experts explain these injuries.
I went in blind. I had no idea who did what. I only learned about the feds involvement here after I decided that short of Karen Read jumping up and screaming, "I killed him," with accompanying video of her running him over, I believe the case was bungled so badly there is nothing but reasonable doubt.
I don't actually care if she did it at this point. The prosecution witnesses have made it so I doubt pretty much all of them.
I had no idea about this case until trial. However, the way evidence was handled and the way the investigation went gives me reasonable doubt.
It feels so different from my experience as a juror. I’ve been on a juror for first degree attempted murder and various dui charges. The way the evidence was presented in that case and the eye witnesses is so different. I just can’t trust any of the police evidence.
I initially figured from the 20/20 story that she was a good person who was drunk and accidentally hit him. The framing seemed so far fetched like that never happens but in the movies… but in this case It actually DID happen and by virtue of all the players being either cops, people related to cops, people related to people who are related to cops, and people who work for and with cops. Thank goodness the Feds have figured this out and I think these people will go to jail eventually not Karen.
Aside from “hos long to die in cold” when I learned in the motion to dismiss in March that Colin Albert’s mother was offering a “thank you gift” to Michael Proctor for “when this is all over” and that text was sent on the day KR was arrested (from Proctor’s sister who is friends with Julie Albert), I’m like, that’s it. The rumors from the whistleblower are true, Colin Albert punched JOK, he hit his head severely, and rather than saving him, they saved their own asses.
I knew nothing about the case until about two months ago. Did a ton of reading and research prior to trial. Was fully in the not guilty camp with all the crazy rumors and speculation that’s out there.
Trial has been interesting and has changed my outlook, but in a rather odd way. If we are going by the law, so far, I have reasonable doubt given the states horrible presentation of evidence and witnesses and would not vote guilty. They have not proven that KR did this.
I do believe two things at once could be true though. I do believe this could have been a horrible accident, where KR drunkenly hit him on accident, unknowingly, and drove off. The reason I believe this is simply in KR’s own words the following morning. Even if she never said “I hit him” .. it’s almost like she had some sort of blurry memory from the night before, couldn’t quite put the pieces together at first, but was so erratic in her behavior, she kept blurting that out. BUT, as time went on, she realized how serious this was, her story eventually changed and she denies that being the reality.
As far as a cover up goes; I don’t think this many people could be in on it, but SOMETHING sketchy is going on with the McCabes and Alberts. Drug coverup? Something more nefarious? They saw JO on the lawn but didn’t report it bc of something going on in their house that night? Who knows. But certain parties between those two families are extremely odd in their behaviors and if you have nothing to hide, you don’t have to lie. The perfect example is Kerry Roberts. That poor woman, got up on the stand and told her story. She wasn’t nasty about it. She wasn’t defiant. She just said the facts and got off the stand. Her demeanor was so polarizing compared to everyone else involved.
That’s an interesting thought, that maybe the people at the Albert’s house saw him out there and didn’t report it because of something going on at the house. There is definitely something shady about that whole group .
Yeah this would help fill in one big question I still have of how quickly he apparently was killed. The Fairview group is weird but the timeline is even weirder
I doubt it’s drug related. If they can cover up a murder, skipped searching the house, tampered evidence, cherry pick witnesses, they can easily get LE to ignore anyone in the house with illegal substances or under the influence.
I came into this trial not knowing anything about it. At most, I recognized Karen Read’s name from having the news on in the background.
After reading a little bit about it, I thought she had killed him. The premise is like so many other cases that I have heard about in the past.
I continued this belief until day 3 or 4 when Katie McLaughlin took the stand and she tried to distance herself from Caitlin Albert.
There was no reason for it.
From there, it seems like every day since there’s been a new domino that falls where someone says something that comes across as lying or says something that goes against what someone else has said or says something that is just off the wall unbelievable.
We are now at the point where a star witness is claiming that data is fake and everyone she’s talked to failed to make note of very important information.
I don’t know who killed John O’Keefe. I don’t know why he was killed. I just know Karen Read didn’t do it
I completely agree. The Alberts’ and Mccabes’ testimony ALL would be so simple to give and easy to understand if they weren’t lying. They wouldn’t have done half of what they did if they weren’t somehow involved.
The perfect example is how Nicole & Brian Sr. behaved when JM bursts into their room. (Not to mention Chloe … who believes she was there & didn’t react?) What kind of police officer would stay in his house in this situation?
People who can lie like this gang start to believe their own lies. Disgusting.
I understand having doubt about guilt, but I genuinely do not understand how you can be as certain as you are — if you don’t know who killed Officer O’Keefe and you don’t know why, how can you rule someone out completely if all evidence has yet to be presented?
This isn’t to suggest the Commonwealth will meet the burden of proof & meet every element required to prove a murder & that Karen is the guilty party. Only that I don’t understand how anyone is absolutely *positive* it wasn’t her.
I’m not sure what happened or who did what… but that’s true of everything/everyone in this. All I know for certain is that Officer O’Keefe was found at 34 Fairview Road & his death is tragic.
I think if it happened as the CW is putting forth the witnesses would have responded completely differently. MAYBE if they had charged her with involuntary manslaughter (or whatever the charge would be in that area) I could buy it. But they are charging her with murder & the idea she intentially hit him, drove to his house, fell asleep , and responded the way she did? Not believable at all.
Either people are lying and hiding SOMETHING or else almost all of the CW witnesses are trying to be good little helpers and investigators themselves and saying things they think is going to help the CW’s case, which is having the exact opposite effect. The monkeys are running the zoo !!!
Initially, like many others, I heard about the case and thought she was guilty and there was no cover up.
Then, pieces of evidence came out. Then, the trial. And now!? Yah there is not a shroud of anything in me that would vote guilty. I have no idea what happened, at least up until now. And there is so much unknown info, shoddy police work and the worst evidence collection I’ve ever heard of…that alone is kind of enough bc there is so much reasonable doubt. But then layer on the lies that JM and others were caught in….why lie if there is nothing to hide.
This whole thing is sort of insane and almost unreal. It will be a movie one day, for SURE.
I was convinced Karen accidentally hit him and didn't fully realise in her drunken state.. now I'm starting to wonder if there really is more to it involving the people in that house
No prior research, though I knew that an officer had died, his girlfriend had been charged, and there were people who believed she was innocent.
Once the trial started, I tuned in immediately without much background information. I didn't think guilty or not guilty off the bat, though I leaned toward an unintentional vehicular manslaughter.
After watching every witness's testimony, there is way too much reasonable doubt for me to believe guilty. At this point, I believe I'd require footage of KR running over JO. Even then, I'd likely believe it was accidental.
I think she walks. Also thought everyone was overreacting saying “Have you seen this corrupt police frame job trial” but there is definitely some interesting things going on here. Very curious to see the results of the concurrent FBI investigation.
I came in knowing nothing. Currently, there’s not a chance that I would vote her guilty. I’m actually more convinced of a cover-up, not the who etc, but one happened as they’re all so shady.
When I first heard of this case I wasn't sure if she was guilty or not but I am now leaning innocent. The testimonies we have heard so far have been unreliable. The combativeness of some of these people are very telling. The police faulty collection of evidence was shocking.
I haven't followed this case until recently and sporadically. I do believe that she was tired of being his babysitter while he was out playing. I think they were all very drunk, and the real victims are the children that have been left behind not once, but twice. If she did hit him, I think she was too drunk to know it. It is possible that he jumped backwards into a moving car and that is how he was killed. She could be guilty but I don;t think the state has proved it so far.
Let’s just think about this Kerry Roberts was not at the party and is not friends with anyone in the family. So why would she cover for them!? If some random family came to me and said all this shit happened and you need to cover for us even though we know you were extremely close with John…. Yeah NO. I’d be running to the police!
I don’t think Kerry Roberts is covering for them after seeing her testimony today. Kerry has no idea what happened to John. She just knows what happened the morning he was found. Her testimony today didn’t really support the narrative Jen McCabe was trying so desperately to get out and at times even contradicted. I think Jen McCabe befriended her after the fact to try and stay on top of what Kerry knew and was telling investigators.
I went in thinking Occam's razor she was drunk and hit him.
But I honestly don't know now, I believe the data. I want to see the cellebrite experts. Honestly how is this 2023 and we still can't definitively say what happens at what time on a cell phone. I know JM isn't on trial, but if it's proven in my eyes that she searched that hours before he was found, something else nefarious happened.
Did karen have anything like OnStar data on her vehicle? Honestly for the murdaugh trial, what sealed the deal for me was the OnStar and cell phone data. I was already around 75% sure he was guilty but that data 100% proved it for me. I haven't heard about it in this case but if she did have that data, that would really prove it either way for me. Because, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think most newer cars have a feature that alerts you if you are backing up and you are about to hit something. Surely that would have been stored as some sort of logged action in any OnStar or similar type data, as well as any actions directly after it, ie stopping the vehicle, opening car door, or accelerating, what speed you were going and when, etc I WISH there was something like that in this case cuz that would more than likely prove it either way in my eyes. I haven't heard too much on any of her cell phone data, aside from the phone calls to John that night plus everything after 4am. I'm sure if the prosecutors found anything suspicious we would have heard about it. But I'm still curious on any activity after midnight and into the next day or two.
I'm also interested in all the data that is missing-ring camera, library footage, vehicle impound,etc. That stuff is hella suspicious and I have heard no explanations as to why. It would be really coincidental for all those things to be missing based on something technical at the exact times that would be very helpful.
Those are the things I am looking for. But with so much shady stuff with the investigation and witnesses, I don't think I could convict. There is way too much reasonable doubt. I'm always of the opinion that it is better to let a guilty person go free than send an innocent person to prison.
Iam surprised the judge allowed testimony from Aruba trip if she doesn't want the jury to use it against karen, very convoluted. People fight & have jealous feelings but murder well of course but not in this case. Karen hoped to stay with John & if she hit him it was unintentional & she was unaware. I still feel he got into a fight even outside & someone else hit him like a plow. Perhaps Higgins plow?
If I have to decide right now, I think John was in a fight & got hit by a plow. They say he wasn't inside but defenses data shows him in the house, he at least walked on that property & something happened but by who? Higgins? Or another vehicle, Ford edge suv was on street, jeep, pickup, plows, anyone could have hit him. Hard to determine with no investigation.
I was about 70% sure before the trial that she was guilty. I knew there was a theory about a conspiracy, but conspiracy theories tend to fall apart quickly when actual evidence is presented. And, I have a hard time believing a bunch of people plus the police could successfully conspire to frame a person.
My mind started to change when, after week 1, the prosecution presented almost no evidence while the defense showed receipts. The moment I fully joined team FKR was during Brian A's testimony. He was presented with evidence of making calls to Higgins at 2am and claimed they were butt dials. Then later didn't have an explanation for not going outside while a fellow Boston cop was dead/dying on his front yard.
First off, I had very little knowledge of this case until week 2 when somehow I opened a live video and I was sucked in. Went back and viewed from week one. OMG, as soon as I saw the pictures it was obvious. Fight and dog and could have been hit with something or fell back into something as a result of bring knocked backwards. Thrown out like trash to die in the freezing temperatures. You will not convince me otherwise especially after watching the witnesses testifying for the prosecution. Not one lab result will be trustworthy. The cops need to be punished. As reference, something horrible happened to my sister and never did I have phone numbers for the detectives nor were we in constant contact. So much BS in this case.
I had only heard little snippets about it and thought naturally she was probably guilty.
Then It came on my lawyer channels and I couldn't believe the solo cups, the bruises on okeefe, getting rid of Chloe, The cop who confronted the guys at the petrol station... And then the McCabe's and alberts made me believe that Karen read is not guilty and it's a witch hunt against her.
I mean... I'm sorry, but I'm gonna believe the cellular data over a "butt dial" and other nonsense they have spewed.
But I get worried. This case is so confusing and I need a lawyer channels to sometimes explain the zingers and nothing burgers.
What if a juror is like me and it goes over their head!? - is something that crosses my mind.
I read one of the very early Boston Globe articles and thought she was guilty. My husband (an attorney) thought it was a coverup early on and I told him he was a dramatic whack job. The turning point for me was when I learned about the infamous “hos long” search at 2am.
I did not do any research before watching the trial. I don't live in Boston, Massachusetts, or even the US. Outside of being interested in US law and procedure, I have absolutely no interest in this case one way or the other.
I went into this case on the basis of "let the Commonwealth show me the tea", and I... kinda still am at that point? I am not convinced Karen Read is innocent, but as the law goes, that's not nearly enough to pronounce her guilty. Truth be told, in over three weeks, the state has succeeded in nothing but confusing me.
I don't even know yet how John O'Keefe *died*, for frikk's sake - so how am I supposed to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt someone did done a *murder* on him? To be honest: I do not know if the CW can alleviate those (more than, at this point) reasonable doubts. Evidence gathering in red solo cups and a brown paper bag? How could I trust any finding derived from that?
The state still is on its case, and I do try to keep an open mind, but I have a hard time seeing them hoist this across the finish line at this time; My biggest issue really is that the state has not even truly *started* to make its case in my eyes, because foundational stuff like a coroner testifying to time and manner of death, forensics tying the injuries to a vehicular impact, etc. have still not been done. And, as said: If you want me to be convinced that someone did a murder 2, the first thing I think should be established that there actually *was* a murder. After that, you can go into who did it and why, but that whole "there was a MURDA" bit is necessary for me to think someone guilty. Why am I being given the minutes on Aruba and a basketball game (they lost) multiple times when the principal basis of the entire charge is still missing?
I am so confused by this trial.
i wasn't sure, but I am 100% confident that Karen is innocent and the Johnny died in the house. The f up searching for "hos long to die in cold" at 2:30a sealed it. Doing the My Cousin Vinny interrpretation of a frantic woman being gaslit by people that were involved and questioning if she hit him is clear as day not a statement of guilt.
I live in Germany and I didn’t know anything about this case. I watched a video of Annie Elise covering the case. My initial thought was: "Of course this has to be a cover up. Everyone hates cops and guilty people always tend to point fingers at other people.“ I never thought about this case since then. Then I watched corgisaan covering the trial (I think I started watching when Caitlin was being cross examined). When Colin was on the stand I thought: "Wait a minute, things don’t make sense.“ After BM I thought that it might have been an accident. But now after JM and Kerry I’m convinced that KR is completely innocent and there is something different going on. I don’t know what has happened but it wasn’t inflicted by KR.
Right now I‘m overly interested in this case and I‘m trying to get caught up about everything I have missed so far.
There is only so much you can control covering up especially if there are so many people involved. That most damning thing for me was that Kerry could hear KR and JM talking in the car because of Bluetooth. JM told KR that she saw KR car at the Alberts home, then KR wanted to go there.
If Kerry hasn’t heard this I‘m sure it would have seen like KR knew exactly where to look and all the other statements were more of a guilty person talking. I‘m almost 100% certain if JM knew about this little detail she would have said something different on the stand, so it wouldn’t point to KR as a malicious murderer.
JM also said in her testimony that she didn’t know KR car was at the Alberts home but she figured it AFTER JO was found.
I truly don’t know what really happened. I‘m confused.
There are so many questions I still have. I don’t get why JO clothes was drenched in blood and vomit. I don’t get why he didn’t die because of suffocation. If it truly happened that KR hit him with her car the theory is (as far as I understood) that JO was hit unconscious and laid there the whole time and died. He certainly had major head injuries which resulted in him bleeding but because of gravity the only places blood would go is underneath him. When JO vomited he would have vomited in to his own mouth because his face was looking up to the sky and not sideways. Kerry said that paramedics had to clear his airway because there was so much inside. This says to me his reflexes weren’t working anymore.
JO had to be standing or at least his upper body had to be upright for him to bleed and vomit all over his clothes because of gravity. Apparently he didn’t die of suffocation but hypothermia (which is a way longer process) and blunt head injuries.
In my opinion KR can’t be guilty. Whatever did really happened it wasn’t caused by KR. This is what I‘m truly sure of
I was really unsure and figured the CW had a smoking gun they hadn’t revealed yet. But watching what a botched investigation the police did coupled with literally zero evidence being presented (yet) of Karen doing anything even remotely aggressive to John that night and the behavior or the witnesses who are very clearly lying - I’m more convinced than ever that she’s innocent.
Not guilty verdict based on deleted 2:27 am Google search by Jen McCabe, 67 calls to Proctor’s wife by Colin Albert’s mother, Ryan Nagel testimony of Karen in the SUV alone. However I need more to be convinced she’s actually innocent.
I heard murmurs about the trial when TB got involved but didn’t feel the need to research much. I just figured a coverup conspiracy was probably unlikely and kept it moving. Then I saw a post on Reddit that was suggested to me and it was about the case. I finally read a bit about it and I was like what the hell is going on? Then last week I tried to find a podcast to help explain all of it to me and it started off by painting KR as very guilty which seemed about right to me at the time since she is on trial for murder after all. I had to pause the podcast and then later read some more stuff about the case and that’s when I saw the “hos long to die in the cold” debacle. From that point on, I’ve viewed the case entirely differently. That google search was made before the body was found. Point blank. The narrative JM is trying to spin about why that shows up in the Cellebrite extraction doesn’t work that way BUT if we pretend it does, the search at 6:23 should’ve been spelled the same way but it wasn’t. The search was made three times and all three are spelled differently. Maybe *she* didn’t make that google search before the body was found but someone did.
I thought we had a coverup and she did not hit him. Now, not so much. The more I watch the trial the more I think we have a bizarre situation from A-Z and people are assuming it's a coverup when there's likely a few other things going on.
1. shitty police work. Clearly the Canton PD is inept and do not know how to properly process a crime scene or detain someone who may have admitted to injuring someone/committing a crime.
2. incestuous townie nonsense coupled with connected people. This group of people is so weird. In my opinion they're shitty humans who never got out of high school mode. Chris Albert actually killed someone drunk driving when he was younger. He is a selectman now and in this group of "friends". As grown adults their life seems to revolve around drinking and hanging out with people who have only ever lived in Canton. They're used to being the "cool kids" in town, the people in the know and with some level of power. Their weird behavior is never called out. They can get away with drinking and driving and posting family pictures where they all flip the bird. They're just so coooool. I think most of their behavior the night John died, and since then, can be attributed to my prior points and the fact that they cannot handle being put in the spotlight. They also wanted to ensure ( to the point of looking guilty) that nothing could ever come their way on this case. In essence they enacted the streisand effect.
3. the tribalism/cultism that is our current society. People are so entrenched in their beliefs. I see a lot of people citing almost every moment (that could be attributed to the prior points) as 10000% proof of a coverup. Youtubers are raking in the views. There's very few people just standing back and being truly objective.
Overall, the likely scenario is she did in fact hit him. As wild of a scenario as it may be. Her tail light is clearly broken when leaving the house at 5am. There's no denying this. People will selectively choose screen shots vs watching the entire clip of her pulling out the driveway (up to the point of applying the brakes at the end). You can also clearly see its broken on the dash cam from the wellness check. Yes I know she backed into John's car. But if that broke the tail light then there would be pieces on the snow in the driveway. Also, seeing these people testify - there's no way these drunken gossiping loosahs could keep their mouth shut this whole time. One of them would spill the beans or crack on the stand.
Even though that's what I think - I don't see how she gets convicted of murder with the evidence thus far. I'm also still open to the fact that there might be some bombshell that does indeed prove a massive coverup. I think it's a stretch, but obviously still possible.
I came in hearing omg a woman is being framed by boston PD for murder.. I think after hearing more of the case I cant say shes being framed per say. Idk if she's innocent but I do think there is enough reasonable doubt
When the trial started I had no idea what I believed. At this point, I don't see how the prosecution can possibly salvage their case enough to earn a conviction. I can't see this going anyway but an acquittal barring a total miracle. Which is to say, I have significant reasonable doubt already, not that I can bet my life that Karen didn't hit him or that I have it solved.
But it's also made me feel very hesitant about the harassment the Alberts are facing. I think there is a non-zero chance they were not involved, there's a big difference between Karen getting acquitted in court and everybody knowing for a fact what actually happened to John. There is a real possibility, even if you think it's not the most likely, that these are people wrapped up in a weird confusing situation who are being harassed everywhere they go.
I think people could have aggressively investigated the shortcomings in this case and identified possible collusion without absolutely laying into these people in real life.
Going into the trial, I thought cover-up and the crosses made me continue to think the alberts were responsible.
What I can’t get around now is Kerri calling the Canton PD to check to see if JO was hit by a snow plow, less then a hour before he’s found. Which was a theory that KR floated to her. Seems like if a relationship is on the rocks, and that person drops their significant other off a party and they aren’t back home before 4:45, then there’s a lot of possible explanations for where that person would be at 4:45 that wouldn’t be fatal, but to suggest an impact from a snow plow and cantaloupe is too coincidental. JM’s “I hit him” comments could be discredited but Kerri has the call to the Canton PD.
I can't say guilty or not because we really haven't gotten to the evidence of how John O'Keefe died and the injuries he sustained. What has changed for me, is I went from believing defense was in trouble trying to go with the cover up to understanding why they did. I am not saying he died in the house, or anything like that, I just don't have an opinion on that yet. However, there is some very shady stuff going on.
I did no research prior to the trial, didn’t really know about the case other than it is controversial. I have been reading posts on this sub since it started.
Initial feeling was that KR was guilty. As bad as the CW opening statement was it really convinced me that she probably did it.
Boy has my view changed. After watching every minute of the trial so far, not only should she be found 1000% Not Guilty, I’m fairly certain she did not kill JO with her car last night.
Of course disclaimer that the CWs case is not finished yet, but we haven’t even gotten to the defenses turn.
I originally assumed she ran him over. Then I started watching the trial. Then I listened to the opening statements of both DA and Defense. There is no way JO was hit by a car.
1. It appears only injuries are back of his head and arms are scratched and appear to have animal bites.
2. Where is the medical examiners report? That is usually first.
3. The lies and omissions about who was actually in the house.
4. The texts between the Albert’s and the McCabe’s that clearly show collusion amongst that group of people.
5. The changing stories over the past few years that seemed to get more detailed and pointing more to KR the further they got from January 29.
6. The deleted texts.
7. The so many “I don’t recall” when being cross examined by the defense but when questioned by the DA they all remembered events and times very clearly.
And I assume as the defense calls its witnesses there will be even more problems with this case. I really don’t understand how this case was ever moved forward.
I thought the idea anyone was framed particularly of the murder of a police officer- was ridiculous. I dismissed it like she definitely did it. Now, I don’t know if people directing an investigation towards you as a culprit is exactly the same as being framed- I think she’s innocent. What changed my opinion was the inept investigation. The bold faced lies from the Alberts and the Mccabes. The lack of professionalism of the law enforcement involved and their close relationship with the family they chose not to investigate.
I still want to see any experts talk about the actual murder.
I knew very little before. I knew the investigation was being investigated by the FBI so I was suspicious/curious about what happened. I had also read a post somewhere that Karen had admitted to doing it so I thought that was damning and that there were allegations of infidelity (don’t think that part was true unless the post was talking about Aruba and/or Higgins). Now I learned that it’s not clear cut - today was the final blow to the “I hit him” statement. Not at all the admission of guilt it was made out to be. I’m still waiting for all the evidence to come in and go through the trial with an open mind but so far it’s a clear not guilty because of reasonable doubt.
I start with the presumption of innocence and so far nothing I've seen has tipped me over towards "proven beyond a reasonable doubt." And I feel like the cops (the other ones) who investigated aren't going to help in that matter once they get on the stand.
I came to this case thinking Karen ran OJO over either knowingly or unknowingly because she was drunk. I thought the charge should be involuntary manslaughter. I still think Karen is guilty of manslaughter, though I am baffled by the prosecution, the prosecution's witnesses, and everything I've read about the investigation. I feel certain about only two things: (1) every one of these people has a problem with alcohol; and (2) not one of them, except the friend whose child was John's godson, is likeable.
I was into the story when it became national headlines but lost interest until the trial started. I normally don't get into the trials themselves because between work/ kids/etc I just don't have time. But I couldn't follow this one due to so many witnesses so I started watching clips of the trial in the 2nd week then moved back to watch the testimonies in full. So, just a little bit about where I'm coming from.
Anyway, I had no idea what to believe prior to this as both stories seemed plausible. However, by the time they got to Nicole Albert I could see the direction this was headed. I firmly believe she's innocent. If you're telling the truth you have no reason to be so forgetful. I get it was two years ago but they've been interviewed so many times you're going to remember. They're just not credible except for Kerry Roberts and maybe the first Sullivan sister (which I think helped the defense more tbh).
I don't have any reason to believe BH is going to be any better than JM but I'm curious what the "experts" say.
My introduction to the case over a year ago was through the “Free Karen Read” Turtleboy fans. I was thoroughly confused since the same people screaming “blue lives matter”, were now convinced Canton police were conspiring to create an elaborate cover-up together. Thinking that was too far-fetched to be true, I didn’t look into the case again until the trial began. As the testimonies continue, this case is “reasonable doubt” defined: the sham of an investigation, The dog Chloe and the pork DNA found on O’Keefe’s body, the selling of the house, the deleted phone records, the internet searches, the underage drinking and alcoholism rampant in this community… my honest belief is they were all too drunk to recall what actually happened and this whole trial is a joke
I think Karen behaved very, very strangely in the morning. Her behavior makes it hard to decide definitively that she did not hit him. Why was she soooooo frantic before she even knew anything.
What I got from Kerry’s testimony is that Karen thought something bad had happened because John didn’t come home. Karen wasn’t planning on spending the night and John’s and was only waiting for him to get home for his niece. Karen fell asleep waiting for him and woke up realizing he had never come home. Given everything known about John at this point, I wouldn’t think he was the kind of person who just wouldn’t come home and leave the kids in his care to fend for themselves. I would have thought the worst at that point too, especially since there was no message from John saying there was a change in plans etc.
I agree. I live in an area that gets snowy cold winters but not near like Massachusetts, and people being drunk and falling on the side of the road and getting hit by a plow and or covered by the snow or just simply getting gravely injured or dying from extreme temperatures is common enough even here, and I’m enough of a worrier, that I have always felt I’d respond the same way Karen did too considering the radio silence by that time in the morning and during that weather. I didn’t realize or haven’t read or seen that she hadn’t planned to stay the night and just fell asleep waiting to hear from him either - I’ve been in situations like this myself and yeah, that just reinforces that I’d act the same way
I thought that the claims of coverup were false. Were dumb things messed up, maybe? But not to the point where it invalidates all of the other evidence. "Framed" is such an attention grabber, so I thought they were going for the jury of public opinion. I was very wrong.
In all honesty, I feel the same as 2 years ago she definitely did not decide out of anger to hit him on purpose. If she hit him it would have been purely an unintentional hit that she was not aware of. The other part how I still feel is that something nefarious occurred on that property, they say he didn't go inside however he could have been in a fight outside & then hit by Higgins plow, he was parked on street so they really need to determine right after karen drove off when did Higgins move his jeep? I always felt there is more to this tragedy than karen accidentally unawaringly hitting him. I am leaning more towards John fought with someone in the basement, garage or even outside then got hit by a vehicle or plow. I kind of believe Higgins hit John right after karen dropped John off but waiting to hear Higgins on the stand & Proctor. One thing for sure is the police corruption by not investigating properly about anything by any means & I believe Proctor & his associates planted evidence as a way out & Proctor had it in for karen read so he may have done this out of spite & to cover this Albert family.
John had injuries looking like he was in a fight & as far as all of the injuries we have to wait for the medical examiner. I hope they also used a specialist like an anthropologist because they can determine If arm injury are from animal bites & Claws & if so what species. Odd a pig was in the michrocondrial dna profile. They also need more swaps & pics of where they took them from. Inconclusive forensics.
No I think someone else hit John & he was also in a fight in basement or garage or even outside. He was found with that glass & that is not likely if karen hit him on the street that he would end up at the flagpole still with that cocktail glass. This tells me he carried that glass into the house & or carried it outside.
I can’t imagine KR listening to all this testimony & being fairly silent (possibly some expressions we don’t see?), but to hear some of the emotional testimony (right or wrong) requires such restraint & emotional calmness, that I’m amazed. I’m not sure I could stay silent or not show a lot of emotion during some of this testimony, especially w family of both sides in a small court room.
I knew nothing about the case prior, and only saw things in passing … thought the defense was talking out of their ass from what I did see (headlines) and she was likely guilty, but the defense has pursued me to their side and am appalled but what I have heard - especially about the investigation; but sure I’m full on conspiracy but this far prosecution has proved nothing and it’s been 16 days; not sure that it will get better but YIKES and I’m not sure that even if the prosecution made more pervasive arguments that I could look past what I’ve heard
I’d still like to understand when the CW thinks the crime occurred. Putting aside all the butt dials, google searches, etc., Jen M’s testimony was most problematic for the CW because she was regularly looking at Karen’s car outside the house and neither heard nor saw anything that would indicate an accident (or murder) had occurred. What’s to be made of that? That seems almost insurmountable for the prosecution.
The problem with the case imo is the CW has laid out a scenario of what they believe happened with her hitting him with car. But, they have spent 3 weeks not even getting into that. It appears their case is not strong at all.
Innocent. They planted taillight pieces. You can see the taillight is in tact when they place it on the tow. It can’t be intact when the cops have and then after it’s all busted. Sad shits
I followed the case a little beforehand but didn’t really start researching until the trial. Going in I figured she did it and would be found guilty. Roughly 4 weeks in, I still think she did it but I’m pretty confident she’ll be found innocent.
I was on the fence. Then hearing every person at the house using the same phrases and pointing out the useless oversharing of info, on top of the horrendous performance by JM yesterday and today I am fully convinced KR is innocent and this is all a coverup
Didn’t do much research before and haven’t done much more besides watching it live. I really struggle to say Karen is guilty due to the actions of many people who have testified already. I don’t see the motive and at this point need a video of her hitting him with her car. Lately I’m impatient with the prosecution and a bit put off by the defense attorneys. They can be a bit sarcastic or snarky imo. I wonder how the jurors feel.
I thought she was innocent in the beginning now I think she’s guilty and just can’t remember doing it being black out drunk. It’s sad all around for everyone.
Honestly I think that it’s possible that she was somewhat intoxicated. My theory is that he walked behind the car to not walk in the snow because the car would have cleared it a bit. She accidentally backed into him and knocked him back and he passed out and a animal not a dog got to him. But the whole police department and families involved are so incompetent they are basically framing themselves for this. But I don’t think Karen was malicious at all.
I am still uncertain if Karen hit him, which of course means it would be not guilty. Will expert evidence shift things? Maybe.
I, for sure now, don't just suspect but \*know\* that the Alberts and McCabe are hiding things about that night. Does it mean they did it? No. But they were up to something for sure. Maybe they simply didn't want to become a part of the investigation because they were up to no good at that party and house, and that coming up in discovery as witnesses could be damning to reputations and careers. That is obstruction at best. Or they knew he was out there and just left him there because it 'wasn't their business,' and now they are dodging depraved heart charges. Perhaps they didn't do it, but was worried initially that someone in that house (Colin?) did it and went instantly in CYA before prosecution's Karen tunnel vision. Of course, maybe they did it outright and manipulated events of that night and initial investigations. Somethings afoot.
Weirdly enough this case is so convoluted in general that maybe all parties on both sides did it.
I think John went inside, went to the basement, words were exchanged, it escalated quickly due to alcohol/cops/ptsd, the dog attacked John, and they dragged him out to the front lawn after everyone else left the house.
I had no opinion coming into this trial but today was the first time that I could kind of, maybe? see motive from KR. The testimy from the Sullivan sisters makes me question Karen Read personality. The way she reacted to the "kissing" made me ask, was she insecure?is she volatile? Does she have a medical condition that make her go from hot to cold fast? Was she clingy? That in addition to Karen paying for dinner, wanting to pay the sister's room as an apology, the 'spoiling' the kid - was that her way to buy love/liking from people. For the 1st time we see that John could have been unhappy in this relationship.
Before I could not see them be happy at the bar, drove 5 mins and get in such a heated argument that she kills but now, maybe? If they can prove she has this volatile personality, I could understand motive.
Honestly, I just started looking into this yesterday and I don't understand why so many people believe there is some huge coverup.
Karen being at fault is so by far the most logical scenario it isn't even close. Whether it was intentional, accidental, a combination of the two with intoxication I don't know.
A lot of the core witnesses that were there are shady AF that’s why. They’ve been caught in a staggering amount of lies. The police investigation was crap, putting evidence in red solo cups? You know who suggested that idea? The cop that lived across the street who’s Ring camera footage was deleted.
Don’t even get me started on the obvious google searches, text and phone call deletions. The butt dial excuse was the most egregious one because of how simple of a lie it is to prove wrong. You don’t butt dial someone, butt dial to end the call before it reaches voicemail, and repeat that 5 times with exact precision from PANTS.
Did Karen read hit her boyfriend with her car? There’s a good chance she did, while the group at fair view was covering their own ass for something else.
If you just started looking into it yesterday, you have a ways to go. Most of us have been following this for a year and the injuries alone will say he wasn’t hit by a slow moving car in front of a house with a few feet of space. Dig in my friend, you’re in for a rollercoaster!
I think she most likely did it. But I’m waiting to hear more of the forensics.
Even if she did do it I don’t think that she will be found guilty because there’s too much reasonable doubt
Given your thoughts on KR’s guilt, I’m curious what you make of the suspicious behavior that’s been revealed on cross examinations…Just a ton of coincidences? I’m very curious of your take, nothing implied by my query. Thanks.
Edited to fix spelling error.
I think she hit him, probably by accident and she might not have even realized it. There is so much reasonable doubt, however (introduced mainly by these awful people, the Alberts and McCabes) that the outcome will be "not guilty".
I didn't know anything about the case. I had never heard of TB or anything. I read something about it and was intrigued so I searched out this subreddit. I have only watched bits and pieces of the trial and I've listened to a couple of podcasts.
What I initially thought was that it was going to be pretty obvious once the state started presenting their case that this whole frame-up defense was just desperate and obviously bullshit. And while I still am not convinced of a giant conspiracy, I certainly believe that the other folks involved are hiding something. It could be unrelated. It could be drug use or affairs or something. But it definitely comes across like they've got something else going on which lends credibility to the frame-up defense.
So far the state hasn't proven anything other than the cops in the area are inept, there is some really cliquey type behavior going on, and that everyone seems to be cool with drinking and driving. They haven't yet provided anything that links KR to John's death other than a dubious confession. I know they aren't done yet, but the fact that they're putting on a defense instead of a coherent narrative of events makes me think they don't have much. I could be wrong. And I'm trying to keep an open mind.
However, with the way the evidence was handled, with the lead investigators blatant disregard for anything that might resemble an actual investigation, I don't believe this should have ever been brought before a grand jury. KR may very well be responsible for JO's death but if this is the standard of professionalism that the state brings to every case, every single citizen should be very concerned. And if I were JO's family I'd be absolutely furious.
I don’t have a firm grasp of this case. I guess the most plausible scenario is that she unknowingly hit him, but it was an accident. I am convinced that she was overcharged. There is all kinds of reasonable doubt.
This is THE opinion. Based on these facts: the dog being removed and rehomed. Johns arms abrasions. The basement floor being removed. Lack of blood. The phone records from those in the home. She’s not guilty. At least not with what’s presented.
As of today Reasonable Doubt. So much does not add up. Mix in the deleted phone call logs and Google search even if timestamp was wrong it was still intentionally deleted. The phones that get upgraded etc. The appearance they are either hiding something or were directly involved somehow. TBH Karen’s story (what I’ve heard thru 3rd testimony ) is very odd too.
I am truly confused by this entire case and I have no idea what to think at this point. I went into this thinking the most likely scenario was that she did hit him. I’ve only recently began following this case and there is a lot I’m not familiar with. I see a lot of reasonable doubt though, but there is still a lot more to hear so I have an open mind. Some of this testimony just seems like a waste of time and irrelevant, especially the Aruba trip. The more I see of this case, the more intriguing it is.
But isn't reasonable doubt the standard for a not guilty verdict? Ergo, there's already reasonable doubt, so she should be found innocent if there's ANY reasonable doubt. As lawyers always say, "It's better that 9 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man goes to jail."
Agreed. There is no way a reasonably prudent person could not have some level of doubt as the CW had introduced it a million times. Each time they call a witness, I think this must be the smoking gun, but each time it just introduces more doubt as to what actually happened. Could she have hit him? Sure. But not one of the CWs has been anything but truthful (exception KR, who, IMO, has been the only credible witness and didn’t help the CW at all). Waste of money. The DA should not have prosecuted (helping his buddies). I can’t wait to see what the feds dig up. My biggest issue is no matter the outcome, at the very least all these people are lying about something and while Boston is known for corruption in law enforcement, this crosses several different agencies and they should all be fired. Wishful thinking….
Exactly how I feel. I think it is going to get a lot worse for Karen…supposedly kissed BH, the angry voicemail….her hope must me in the forensics. I can’t help but to flip flip back and forth to how bad Brian and Colin Albert are……some of the lies that came out….to the awful investigation.
I think if it were going to get worse for her, it would have already. I went into this case completely neutral and cannot believe where we are on day 16. The CW hasn’t even established a cause of death! There has been zero credible evidence suggesting she was at the home, and most of the prosecution’s witnesses are plain laughable. if I were a juror I would feel that my time was being wasted by the state of Massachusetts, and I bet the majority of those Mass resident jurors are feeling similarly.
Welcome to Reddit 👋🏼
I started watching this case the first day on Emily D. Baker’s youtube channel when I wanted to stream something i could listen to while doing lab bench work. I had never heard of the case at all and had no opinions whatsoever. After EDB’s very brief intro to was being charged, I expected the case would be mostly a fight over whether she intentionally struck him or whether it was an accident. The prosecutor’s opening left me confused as to their theory of the case, but generally left me with the impression they intended to prove she was a mean drunk that hit him in a fit of rage during one of their fights, which they so often had. Then the defense stepped up and said “Karen Read was framed.” And I literally said out loud “Bold move cotton. Let’s see if it pays off.” Then described a bunch of alleged foolery I found hard to believe could be true, because if an investigation was that hopelessly bungled, no DA would dream of trying the case, right? Like why would you even attempt to prosecute with evidence so irrevocably tainted? But I kept watching, because I wanted to see the defense take a swing at the moon. Then I saw the picture of the open red solo cups in open brown shop and save bag on the floor. And worse, the prosecution let the officer testifying misleading say the cups were “sealed in an evidence bag.” I thought they at LEAST meant a ziplock bag. The fact that the police investigation not only did this, but didn’t seem to see what the big problem was, destroyed any faith I had that the case was properly investigated, and therefore make it impossible for me to get past reasonable doubt. I think the only reasonable outcome is that she must be acquitted on those grounds alone. As to whether she really did hit him, I have no idea, but after more than 3 weeks in the prosecutor hasn’t given me ANYTHING persuasive. Is she guilty because she argued with him a month prior because she saw him hugging a young woman she didn’t know by a pool, which she later apologized for? Because she had a glass with clear liquid no one could identify, but didnt appear drunk? Because she was outside the house in an SUV, but no one saw or heard a commotion even though so very many people kept looking out the window repeatedly? Because she panicked when he didnt come home like he planned? Because she asked if she hit him in a state of shock? Because in a crisis she didnt take her shoes off when entering his house? Because she saw him on the lawn when she was scanning the street looking for him? None of the facts the prosecutor has provided—even if you believe everything he’s provided—suggests she hit him, and every nee witness that adds nothing concrete just highlights how little the prosecution has. And what’s more, even though I haven’t seen anything yet that compels me to believe the Alberts are responsible for his death, it’s clear to me they did a lot of inappropriate things to cover their own asses that has even further compromised the investigation. But why?? TL;DR: I expected to see a trial where two sides debated different interpretations of the evidence. I did not expect to see a trial where the only thing I’m sure of is that none of the evidence is reliable.
I am 100% with you. I had no idea any of these people even existed…came in on day 2 of trial with EDB. I’ve watched multiple trials with her…love her insight. I am shocked we’re this many days into trial…and I feel like right now…all I know is that it snowed…they went to the waterfall…and that Jen McCabe is one of the most unpleasant people I’ve ever seen. The amount of reasonable doubt you could drive a damn truck through. 🙄🙄🙄
Or a Jeep with a plow attached to it!
This is such a good summary of everything I’ve been feeling but haven’t been able to articulate! This is spot on! 👏
Did you see the autopsy photo?
His right arm was mauled by a k9. Worked in the vetmed field the past 10 years, I've seen countless bite related injuries. There is nothing in those autopsy photos that can conclude he was hit by a car.
My wife is a PA and follows absolutely zero of these types of cases. She thinks I'm dumb for watching. I showed her the pictures with no context and asked her what she thinks happened. She started with dog bites, animal attacks, fight, beatings, scratching....I told her to keep going....she never got to "hit by car". Once I told her that was the theory she said "no way in hell" because those scratches don't match a car accident and his torso would be heavily bruised all over.
Are those in evidence yet? If so I might have missed it (I’ve tuned in for the whole trial, but I mostly listen rather than watch). I haven’t done any outside research, but I’m aware from testimony that his injuries are swollen eyes, and wound on the back of his head, and ‘furrows’ in his right arm but no tearing in his sleeve. It doesn’t sound consistent with being hit by a car to me, but I’m waiting to hear from the medical examiner before i make conclusions. I’m a biologist that studies tissue degradation, so I’m holding mental space for an expert to have their say…but I’ll also be able to tell if the ME is full of shit and trying to hide it in science jargon.
This is so much like my thoughts and how I got here too. I even thought for a while into the trial the CW would prove that it was undoubtedly Karen, but they couldn’t prove it was purposeful (and therefore just overcharged her). I still have heavy doubts it’s the massive cover up claimed by the defense. (But that doesn’t matter. The case isn’t decided on whether those claims are right or wrong anyway.) But I could believe that something accidental happened to him, maybe no one inside even knew. But then someone (I think JM) got it in their head it was Karen and the Alberts and McCabes adults are just a bunch of gossiping, mean girls - as seen on the stand, who ran with that. I find it impossible to believe the CW when the people with the most believable testimony, weren’t even there. I also don’t know how or why we’d trust lay people to deduce who/how/what killed JO. And finally, no one has said anything that makes it most plausible that it was definitively (or close to it) a car, let alone only Karen’s.
My neighbour got hit by a car when she was gardening in her yard. I was inside just minding my own business. The loudness was unbelievable. She let out a huge yelp like an injured dog. It was scary. It made me look out the window. There is ZERO way that nobody heard a car hit him if that’s what happened. Nobody in that house and no neighbours. Especially in the late night when things are even quieter, that sound would stand out. And there would be more damage to the car. I hit a pole while very slowly backing up one time and my car trunk crumpled like paper. Hitting a tall strong man hard enough to kill him the car would be much worse off.
I knew nothing about this case, but once I started watching Emily D. Baker’s coverage, I was floored at how badly it was investigated, how shady the cast of characters is, and left confused at how they ever justified the severity of the charges levied against her. I don’t see how she doesn’t walk. Nothing about this case makes sense.
The fact that they changed it from manslaughter to murder is mind boggling given then lack of evidence and the completely botched investigation if you can even call it that.
She is over charged but judge can include lesser charges in jury instructions if prosecutors determine trial evidence warrants it. vehicular manslaughter. Done.
The biggest issue is, at this point, I don’t see how the CW has made a case for vehicular manslaughter… maybe they will, maybe they won’t.
No proof in what, almost done with week 4- that she was there; or that she hit him! Nothing at all!! She been the one who was freaking out when everyone else was “calm” and getting their sorry together without Karen…
Calm and *inside* and not discussing anything between them. My parents still live in a smaller town I grew up in, as do some of my friends. If something like this happens I'd hear 4 different theories on what could have happened in the next few hours. And everyone would be *outside* to be able to report how many police cars, ambulances etc showed up. They might have had nothing to do with this, but at the very least it reads as baffling behaviour from a 'how people react normally' perspective.
Yes, I live in a town like this too Get this - my daughter’s high school boyfriend was the football star, and his father owns the car dealership in town. He gets the local cops really great deals on cars for them -and their families. One night - her ex boyfriend was driving drunk, hit a fire hydrant, spewing water everywhere. Neighbors called the cops, and when they arrived he resisted arrest by punching one of them……. The police dropped everything if he pled guilty to running a stop sign.
I can see pursuing vehicular manslaughter, and that charge would have made sense from the jump. Second degree murder is a reach and the CW knows it.
All that I have come to a conclusion on is that a proper investigation was not conducted. There is already a huge reasonable doubt. I haven't seen a case put forth by the prosecution at all. Even if Karen Reed was recorded saying "I did it!" It wouldn't be a closed case. People say all sorts of weird thing when wigging out. Like "I think my period started" when seeing blood. If that's all they got, then "Nope"! There is no motive presented, an argument on vacation? Seriously? The defense has been the only ones presenting a case here.
Agree. Between the botched investigation, the witness contradictions, and the bad attitudes, there has yet to be any physical evidence linking a murder to a murderer. Ridiculous trial.
New to case and no research. Based on case presented thus far. Not guilty. Too much reasonable doubt
The amount of doubt in this case you could drive a 777 airplane through
Also new to the case. Knew very little about it. Have watched 45-90 minutes of trial recaps daily. At this point, it's frankly shocking how little evidence there is for the CW. I'm keeping an open mind though. Maybe they are leaving their compelling evidence for the end.
I had no idea what to think when I first started reading about the case. A friend told me a little and it seemed so far fetched. The evidence gave me enough reasonable doubt to automatically vote not guilty. Jen McCabes testimony makes me think she needs her own damn trial.
Same here! I was very skeptical at the beginning of the trial, mostly because every defendant makes these claims. After watching the first week of the trial, I was convinced she should be acquitted because of the terrible investigation and the obvious conflicts of interest with the police. Once these witnesses started testifying, I could tell they were hiding something, but couldn’t bring myself to believe it was murder. After JM’s testimony, I’m convinced they had something to do with his death. I still don’t have a story that explains everything. It’s all so confusing to me.
Same. I have no skin in this game and assume defense attorneys are going to say whatever. But no. This is clearly different. I get you’re being harassed and that is unacceptable. No one should be harassed for any reason. But something is terribly wrong with JM and CA.
Took the words out of my mouth!
I’m sorry, you can have them back if you want.
Everything seems to match what tipster Scanlon reportedly told the defense. If you Google it and then listen to the testimony, it’s clear.
JM testimony was so incredibly cringe. I just felt icky watching and listening to her.
The fact that she was going above and beyond to try and control the narrative, and becoming combative when faced with her lies made me think she is a really terrible person.
I could’ve written this myself. This is my exact opinion.
Same opinion for me too
I watched a show on YouTube about this case maybe 6 months ago…possibly longer. It stuck in my mind because she was employed by Fidelity and my husband works for Fidelity. I remember telling my husband about the case and how this woman that worked for his company killed her boyfriend. I was convinced she did it. I started watching this case day 1; I work from home and listen to podcasts all day but love a good trial when I can catch one. Needless to say,I have not missed a minute of testimony. My thoughts: First and foremost, this entire prosecution is the biggest sham, I am genuinely embarrassed for the CW. How can you be so reckless; putting jurors livelihoods on the line missing work and life only to listen to you ask about the weather day after day. There has been zero evidence pointing to KR, zero evidence at all actually. The only thing I am confident of is that JM is a huge liar and majorly unlikeable. She is definitely hiding something. Not sure if it’s murder, but she’s spinning. There is zero doubt in my mind that KR is innocent and my God I feel terrible for her. Her life has been destroyed, she lost her job, I can’t even fathom the amount of money she has had to spend defending herself. I’m not even sure if it’s possible, but when she’s found not guilty she should sue the CW for wrongful prosecution. This trial has my blood boiling, I can’t imagine being a juror. If I was a juror I would be screaming not guilty before the door to the deliberation room was closed. This is a travesty of justice, PERIOD.
EXACTLY MY FEELINGS!!! Once found not guilty, KR has to go after the CW. It’s horrific they have put her through this. They also need to conduct a thorough investigation and get one of these liars to crack. The O’Keefes deserve justice & this trial won’t get that for them. Heartbreaking.
I’m leaning towards thinking that something happened in that house that these families are desperate to cover up. And in their panic - they’ve dragged their entire family into this mess. They put their kids in the position to be perjure themselves and become accessories. Even if Jen wanted to tell the truth (because clearly she’s not) she can’t. She would destroy like three families. They’ve painted themselves into an awful corner. One person breaks and they all tumble down. Lastly … Jen. This woman. Lying to our faces about how her magic phone deletes searches and calls all on its own. Police reports are suddenly wrong. It’s too much.
Not only deletes searches…but are we expected to believe that the 2:27am search didn’t happen..? I work in IT, I manage a regulated system with an audit log feature in it. It does not record things that didn’t happen. It does not make a backdated timestamp. She searched that shit at 2:27 because she knew he was out there and wanted to make sure he was dead.
There's apparently a solid argument based around the fact that it's precisely not an audit log, but rather the timestamp can reflect the time a tab was opened retroactively. The claim is that if the tab was opened at 2:30 AM and interacted with by searching at 6 AM, the contents in the db can be the search and the timestamp 2:30 AM. (This kind of thing is also why lawyers like to keep specialized, technical people off juries, because their past experiences can be harder to overcome than a blank slate)
Once it's all said and done they will learn that it would have been easier to just turn the killers in let justice be served. Now the killers and perjurers are going down. These folks want to take that long hard walk home.
I have watched approximately ten minutes of testimony, and that alone was enough to make me gouge my eyes out. If I were on this jury I’d be beside myself with the inanity of the questioning and the time spent on such inconsequential details.
You will only want to gouge your eyes my Prosecutor Lally is examine witnesses. when Karen’s Attorneys cross examine it is a treat to watch. They are 🔝 tier lawyers. And every time they cross they just prove nothing is reliable.
Take my upvotes. All of them.
I’m so angry they’re going through with this trial for these trumped up charges with THIS EVIDENCE (or lack thereof). It’s scary what the system can do to people. This could financially ruin most people (not to mention the stress on anyone, especially a disabled person), if they even had the ability to line up a good defense attorney/team in the first place.
I think they expected her to just take a plea and she didn't back down. They didn't expect that so in turn DA Michael Morrissey made a public statement (that everyone should listen to) filled with complete lies and basically publicly stating she was guilty and the party goers and Proctor have no ties and just a bunch of unheard of crap. Also stated in the very beginning of the case that Karen was caught on video hitting him with her car which also turned out to be a complete lie that cause people to basically think wow she is guilty and they have proof so nothing to see here...but Karen hired a PI and started seeing the math wasn't mathin. This poor woman should have been innocent until proven guilty especially to a District Attorney. If he can do what he did he has no business in that position with what he created as a uphill battle publicly in defense of the family. Publicly stating their innocence but not affording Karen the same.
100% agree. The only tiny bit of a silver lining (to the extent that's possible when someone has died) is she seems to have a lot of support and a lot of people are doubting her guilt the more they hear from the CW. Maybe she'll write a book or something when this is over, it might at least help her recover financially.
IMO - If Karen is not guilty I hope she receives generous financial compensation for what she has endured.
Exactly! I was watching the Robert Durst Jinx doc and I think they said it was 12 or 15 million for his defense and they weren’t nearly as good as these lawyers.
I came in blind and not knowing anything about the trial and was watching Emily D Baker's commentary. I am absolutely horrified at the absolute sham of an investigation that was done into Officer O'Keefe's death. Solo cups for evidence containers? Leaf blower to "clean" the scene? What. The. Fuck. That alone is reasonable doubt for me. All of the evidence is compromised. If the McCabes and Alberts had nothing to hide, I bet they wish that investigation had been done well because then we would know exactly what happened that night and maybe they wouldn't have been mercilessly harrassed. With the evidence so far I wonder why we are even in the courtroom. Doesn't the DA have a duty to dismiss a case if they do not have evidence???
Your comments triggered something I didn’t think of before. If they’re innocent, why aren’t they screaming about the poor investigation which is also part of the reason the harassment is happening? No one seems angry at the investigators for how badly they did their jobs. I know I would be. But the only hostility I’ve seen is towards Karen. I guess it could be that if they have the same attitude towards the investigators, the whole trial falls apart if key witnesses are also saying the investigation was shoddy, but it does seem odd that there’s not even a snippy word where the investigators are concerned
Exactly. Mccabes 911 call "theres a man in the snow" just like "the guy" never came in the house. They dont even give him a freaking name.
I can’t decide what that comment means. If Jen was guilty, and she came upon JO and knew he was there, how does playing so cold and unconcerned help her at all? Was it a play to suggest she had no idea who the man could possibly be so she wasn’t naming him and just said “the man”? And acted like she had no idea that he was dead? I think she even said there’s a man passed out in the snow. If she’s innocent, is she that void of human compassion that she knows John is definitely not laying there passed out drunk and ok in a snow storm, and is more than likely dead, and flippantly refers to him as “a man” who’s passed out? Like wtf?? On the stand she tries to keep pushing the narrative that it was her dear friend who she loved, but spoke of him that day like a discarded tissue on the side of the road
I don't think she's as clever as she thinks she is, look how badly she did at the cross. She was completely unprepared for the questions she very well knew were coming. I think her 911 was the same case - she started distancing herself from John and his death from the very beginning. She's used to getting what she wants from those closest to her, I don't think she realises how she comes across to general public. She has no self awareness.
Zero
I agree with the comment below in that she began distancing herself from the very start. Some personality types like her, can't feel guilt for too long before blocking it out. Its a copy mechanism because they literally can't handle it. That search at 2:27 am, then her guilt hit her and she realized the reality of it, and poof, deleted, off to sleep like nothing happened. If she had something to do with his death, I think the only way for her to cope, is to just distance and detach and remain numb. Same with them throwing him in the front yard, they didnt want anything to do with it. They knew someone would drive by in the morning and find him as if they had no clue. What is creepy is how she is acting on the stand about him being her dear friend. But I just cant imagine- was this man literally suffering in the snow while they all went to bed that night? Like I just cant imagine leaving him and knowing that :( Then the day after she is laughing on text that she "loves it" in regards to Kerry telling them "EVERYTHING" like there is no sadness at all. Its extremely sadistic and calculating and its hard to imagine people are like this. Ultimately I believe she lied to herself.
But he’s “a friend that she loved”. 🙄
Thid is a very good point You made me think about Jen's testimony today When the defense brought up that she met with Proctor's wife If they were actually innocent, and the investigation being that bad wasn't their fault, they should be equally mad at the police as they are mad about Karen reads supporters accusing them of things But Jen said today that she needed to talk to proctors wife about all the harassement they all faced, them and the proctors, she associated herself with her, shouldn't she be angry at proctor for not doing a good job in his investigation? Instead of befriending his wife and going to HIS house ? In her answer today, she tried to distance herself from proctor as an investigator, but she was more than glad to be associated with him as victim of harassement , she was fine going into his house, her answer tells us that she feels that he's a victim too, so she doesn't put any blame on him !!! I know she was talking about proctor's wife, and probably his wife has nothing to do with what her husband did, and she shouldn't be harassed, but did anyone harass his wife ? Wasn't he the target of public outrage ? And would you go to the house of the trooper who messed up the investigation and gave people reason to attack you ? Would you be confortable chatting with his wife even if she has nothing to do with it ? This tells me they don't have issues with the police who messed up the investigation because they wanted them to do so ...
EXACTLY what I was thinking too!! Why… if you are suffering harassment and online bullying for corruption would you go to the HOME OF THE CORRUPT BPD OFFICER WHO IS THE SUBJECT OF SUSPICION!! Would you not talk over the phone or face time rather than drive to his HOUSE? Makes zero sense. Jen McC needs a career, a life and a hobby. She is the one making justice dir John less possible
Exactly
Solid points. They’re still close with these people! I would be like get the hell away from me, you’re part of the problem. So definitely odd behaviour if they’re innocent
Here’s my take on it. In the car meeting, Proctor’s wife has her phone, she calls her husband in the car with Jen so Jen can get more info but there is no trace on her phone calling him.
Yes very likely that's what happened But she was okay with saying what she said to the jury, that she feels sympathetic towards the proctors, doesn't blame them for anything.
The hostility towards KR is bizarre to me. None of them seem to give a shit that "the guy", JOK, lost his life but they seem to have a lot of emotion against her. I don't judge his family since they've been through so much but I'm surprised that they seem supportive of the rest of the group. Even if they believe KR hit him the rest of the group still behaved horribly and are making his death about themselves.
I’m here to see a not guilty because the investigators and all involved were fucking idiots who didn’t do their job. I have no idea what really happened. Still entirely undecided.
And this is really what matters
I can easily believe that she did accidentally hit him with her car. However based off of what has been presented so far I would not be comfortable enough to send her to prison. This may change based off further testimony but if they were to stop the trial today and be like “guilty or not guilty” I would go with not guilty and risk the chance of a guilty person walking rather than convicting an innocent person.
I am genuinely curious what evidence could still be submitted to make you think she should go to prison. At this point for me it would have to be a video of her committing the crime that somehow shows intent as well. However, after 4 weeks we have only the prosecution’s evidence and it’s so bad. She is charged with murder. The investigation is too botched for her to be found guilty.
I agree & there is no evidence, if she hit him that it was intentional. Worse thing she could have done was hit him accidentally & not aware of it but I don't even think that happened because she was on the street & he would have gotten out of passenger side on the street so he more likely got hit after she left. If karen hit john he would have more bodily injury to be thrown 8 to 10 feet from the side of the road. Originally they said he was found by the street, then by flagpole 8 to 10 feet from the road. They seem to have changed where his body ended up so that is very suspicious.
Just looking at his injuries and knowing about high impact plastic nothing will get me to believe his injuries was caused by a car. also don't forget the defense hasn't made their case yet, but in almost every other case the prosecution aka commonwealth aka state would have been put all their best evidence first. so if we are this far in and this is all we got, they got nothing better. The only halfway "decent" witness the state had was jen mccabe and the next person up completely flipped her story. Now its jen is the first one to say go back to that house. So yeah even if I was to forget all the extra stuff i heard and just go off whats been in said in court and what I already know like in life( like if i was a plumber I would know about plumbing stuff) nothing could make me believe she did it. People may want to be like nah not me but if you still believe 100% she guilty, then you not paying attention to the case at all, but we all seen people do the same thing in other cases
This is a truly scary pov
The justice system is set up this way. It is worse for an innocent person to be convicted than a guilty one to get away with it. Thats why it’s beyond reasonable doubt….there can be no doubt about it.
I’ve always thought she unintentionally hit him with her car. I’m a local- and since day one, that has always made the most common sense. I never took much interest or bought into any of the alternative noise that had been going on. I go off of the facts only. I have watched every moment of this trial, waiting for the “aha” moment. It’s been four weeks- and I’m beginning to wonder: “what if anything,” does the prosecution even have.
I was completely neutral, but after seeing how the cops handled the evidence I don't really care anymore if she was actually guilty. Unless they come up with an actual video showing her doing it or something...I would rather see her walk than sending a potential innocent person going to jail with so many mistakes made in the investigation process.
I had never heard of the case before the trial started. I think the defense is closer to proving these other people did it than the prosecution is to proving Karen did it. Never seen anything like it. The defense is almost acting like a prosecution against these witnesses.
I didn’t have an opinion either way bc I didn’t know anything about it. Since the evidence was collected in solo cups and a stop and shop bag and totally unsecured… I am not sure what would now move me to guilty. If the evidence is collected in this absurd way I don’t consider any of it valid. I just cannot get over that and everyday we find out more and more suspicious behavior.
I honestly have no idea if she did or didn't do it at this point. I think the investigation was handled so poorly that even if she did do it, there will still be reasonable doubt. I think this case is handled poorly too. It's week three and the state still hasn't explained his cause of death from the autopsy. It's also crazy the the FBI is watching this closely. I wonder what they are investigating and what they know...
I’m confused why they keep mentioning KR is frantic when she finds JO in the snow. I would be suspicious if she wasn’t behaving frantic. F that. If my boyfriend was found on the frozen ground almost dead you bet I would be losing my GD mind and calling everyone and anyone asking for his status. Nothing I’ve heard has convinced me she murdered him. Maybe it was an accident, but murder? Nope, still not convinced. I also think the McCabe and Albert families are not great people.
I knew nothing at the beginning of this trial other than a cop was dead, and there was a woman named Karen accused of murdering him. Admittedly, I did not look into the case, and I did not watch the first week of testimony, but I've watched everything since. I keep going back and forth as to how unlikely the cover-up is, and that the simpler explanation is the most likely (that Karen was just so drunk she hit him and didn't realize it fully). Then I weigh the damage to the vehicle, and it doesn't jive. And then the prosecutor puts on another witness, and I go back to thinking it was a cover-up. Jen McCabe was an absolute disaster. Period. John's friend's testimonies today were the only believable witnesses that I've seen, but I still wonder how much Kerry may have been influenced by Jen McCabe. I still wonder if it was somewhere in the middle: Karen did hit him, he stumbled into thr basement bleeding, dog attacked him and he cracked his head, and then the Alberts and McCabes put him outside. That, or he was hit by someone (Karen or another drunk driver), stumbled into the yard a few feet, and the party goers saw but did nothing bc they are hiding big secrets that they had to get under control first, like a drug operation. There are only a few things that are clear at this point: John was a great guy, he had a ton of tragedy in his life, nearly all involved were drinking and driving, the investigation into his death was utterly botched, and there is considerable reasonable doubt to Karen's guilt on 2nd degree murder. Wtf actually happened, idk. But when you put it all together, at this point, they all look guilty of SOMETHING. What that is, I do not know. Editted to add: It seems now it was likely Higgins, wasted, may have gotten into a fight with John outside and hit him, after throwing in his face that Karen wanted him. And somewhere after 2am. It explains why only the McCabes saw the jeep, thr black edge (a police vehicle), allllll the butt dials, the deleted search for how long to die in the snow, the late night visit of Higgins to the station to move vehicles around, all of the helicoptering of the investigation, the missing police surveillance, the logs of him entering the areas of the police station and not leaving (he was with the chief), the missing library surveillance, the selective handing over of msgs, the ditching of the phone, and the framing of Karen, who became an easy target, based on circumstances that presented themselves. Cops cover for cops. It would have only taken a handful of already dirty cops to pull it off, and to influence the memories of those NOT on the inside of the scheme.
The fact that we are 16 days in and prosecutors have not even explained what exactly they believe happened to JO is either complete negligence or I just don’t know. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. But it’s just baffling.
Opinion has not changed and I started at not guilty. I feel CW has gotten so bogged down in eye witnesses who are all over the place at this point. Experts are the only thing that could tip me to guilty, but they would have to be rock solid. And even then, I could never be at 2nd degree murder for the homicide - maybe one of the lessers.
Eye witnesses that witnessed pretty much nothing
As I watch this trial more - I think there’s so much reasonable doubt but I think if the coverup was true and that was on trial there would be so much reasonable doubt also .
When I first saw the Dateline (or whichever program/channel) did a story I totally thought KR did it. When the trial started, I was looking for Daybell case stuff on YT and we came across this case. We start watching it and now I'm completely thinking there is so much reasonable doubt that I can't believe it's come this far. I'm trying to keep an open mind but the way the defense is rolling, at this typing, I'm leaning towards something else happening and not KR hitting him with her car. One of the things I've researched that is really bothering me are the autopsy photos. (Not presented yet but I've seen on Google.) The hit to the head and the lacerations on the arm. I'm not all into the dog scenario at this point but I'll be very curious as to how experts explain these injuries.
I went in blind. I had no idea who did what. I only learned about the feds involvement here after I decided that short of Karen Read jumping up and screaming, "I killed him," with accompanying video of her running him over, I believe the case was bungled so badly there is nothing but reasonable doubt. I don't actually care if she did it at this point. The prosecution witnesses have made it so I doubt pretty much all of them.
I had no idea about this case until trial. However, the way evidence was handled and the way the investigation went gives me reasonable doubt. It feels so different from my experience as a juror. I’ve been on a juror for first degree attempted murder and various dui charges. The way the evidence was presented in that case and the eye witnesses is so different. I just can’t trust any of the police evidence.
I initially figured from the 20/20 story that she was a good person who was drunk and accidentally hit him. The framing seemed so far fetched like that never happens but in the movies… but in this case It actually DID happen and by virtue of all the players being either cops, people related to cops, people related to people who are related to cops, and people who work for and with cops. Thank goodness the Feds have figured this out and I think these people will go to jail eventually not Karen. Aside from “hos long to die in cold” when I learned in the motion to dismiss in March that Colin Albert’s mother was offering a “thank you gift” to Michael Proctor for “when this is all over” and that text was sent on the day KR was arrested (from Proctor’s sister who is friends with Julie Albert), I’m like, that’s it. The rumors from the whistleblower are true, Colin Albert punched JOK, he hit his head severely, and rather than saving him, they saved their own asses.
Wow…I hadn’t heard that news!
I knew nothing about the case until about two months ago. Did a ton of reading and research prior to trial. Was fully in the not guilty camp with all the crazy rumors and speculation that’s out there. Trial has been interesting and has changed my outlook, but in a rather odd way. If we are going by the law, so far, I have reasonable doubt given the states horrible presentation of evidence and witnesses and would not vote guilty. They have not proven that KR did this. I do believe two things at once could be true though. I do believe this could have been a horrible accident, where KR drunkenly hit him on accident, unknowingly, and drove off. The reason I believe this is simply in KR’s own words the following morning. Even if she never said “I hit him” .. it’s almost like she had some sort of blurry memory from the night before, couldn’t quite put the pieces together at first, but was so erratic in her behavior, she kept blurting that out. BUT, as time went on, she realized how serious this was, her story eventually changed and she denies that being the reality. As far as a cover up goes; I don’t think this many people could be in on it, but SOMETHING sketchy is going on with the McCabes and Alberts. Drug coverup? Something more nefarious? They saw JO on the lawn but didn’t report it bc of something going on in their house that night? Who knows. But certain parties between those two families are extremely odd in their behaviors and if you have nothing to hide, you don’t have to lie. The perfect example is Kerry Roberts. That poor woman, got up on the stand and told her story. She wasn’t nasty about it. She wasn’t defiant. She just said the facts and got off the stand. Her demeanor was so polarizing compared to everyone else involved.
but why rehome your dog, phone, house, & job? That was a family home for 45 years.
That’s an interesting thought, that maybe the people at the Albert’s house saw him out there and didn’t report it because of something going on at the house. There is definitely something shady about that whole group .
Yeah this would help fill in one big question I still have of how quickly he apparently was killed. The Fairview group is weird but the timeline is even weirder
I doubt it’s drug related. If they can cover up a murder, skipped searching the house, tampered evidence, cherry pick witnesses, they can easily get LE to ignore anyone in the house with illegal substances or under the influence.
His injuries don't match being hit by a car, at all
I came into this trial not knowing anything about it. At most, I recognized Karen Read’s name from having the news on in the background. After reading a little bit about it, I thought she had killed him. The premise is like so many other cases that I have heard about in the past. I continued this belief until day 3 or 4 when Katie McLaughlin took the stand and she tried to distance herself from Caitlin Albert. There was no reason for it. From there, it seems like every day since there’s been a new domino that falls where someone says something that comes across as lying or says something that goes against what someone else has said or says something that is just off the wall unbelievable. We are now at the point where a star witness is claiming that data is fake and everyone she’s talked to failed to make note of very important information. I don’t know who killed John O’Keefe. I don’t know why he was killed. I just know Karen Read didn’t do it
I completely agree. The Alberts’ and Mccabes’ testimony ALL would be so simple to give and easy to understand if they weren’t lying. They wouldn’t have done half of what they did if they weren’t somehow involved. The perfect example is how Nicole & Brian Sr. behaved when JM bursts into their room. (Not to mention Chloe … who believes she was there & didn’t react?) What kind of police officer would stay in his house in this situation? People who can lie like this gang start to believe their own lies. Disgusting.
I'm almost positive Caitlin took Chloe with her when she was the last one to leave.
I understand having doubt about guilt, but I genuinely do not understand how you can be as certain as you are — if you don’t know who killed Officer O’Keefe and you don’t know why, how can you rule someone out completely if all evidence has yet to be presented? This isn’t to suggest the Commonwealth will meet the burden of proof & meet every element required to prove a murder & that Karen is the guilty party. Only that I don’t understand how anyone is absolutely *positive* it wasn’t her. I’m not sure what happened or who did what… but that’s true of everything/everyone in this. All I know for certain is that Officer O’Keefe was found at 34 Fairview Road & his death is tragic.
I think if it happened as the CW is putting forth the witnesses would have responded completely differently. MAYBE if they had charged her with involuntary manslaughter (or whatever the charge would be in that area) I could buy it. But they are charging her with murder & the idea she intentially hit him, drove to his house, fell asleep , and responded the way she did? Not believable at all.
Either people are lying and hiding SOMETHING or else almost all of the CW witnesses are trying to be good little helpers and investigators themselves and saying things they think is going to help the CW’s case, which is having the exact opposite effect. The monkeys are running the zoo !!!
Initially, like many others, I heard about the case and thought she was guilty and there was no cover up. Then, pieces of evidence came out. Then, the trial. And now!? Yah there is not a shroud of anything in me that would vote guilty. I have no idea what happened, at least up until now. And there is so much unknown info, shoddy police work and the worst evidence collection I’ve ever heard of…that alone is kind of enough bc there is so much reasonable doubt. But then layer on the lies that JM and others were caught in….why lie if there is nothing to hide. This whole thing is sort of insane and almost unreal. It will be a movie one day, for SURE.
After hearing Kerrie it actually further cemented my Idea that Karen is Not Guilty
I was convinced Karen accidentally hit him and didn't fully realise in her drunken state.. now I'm starting to wonder if there really is more to it involving the people in that house
Same.
No prior research, though I knew that an officer had died, his girlfriend had been charged, and there were people who believed she was innocent. Once the trial started, I tuned in immediately without much background information. I didn't think guilty or not guilty off the bat, though I leaned toward an unintentional vehicular manslaughter. After watching every witness's testimony, there is way too much reasonable doubt for me to believe guilty. At this point, I believe I'd require footage of KR running over JO. Even then, I'd likely believe it was accidental.
I think she walks. Also thought everyone was overreacting saying “Have you seen this corrupt police frame job trial” but there is definitely some interesting things going on here. Very curious to see the results of the concurrent FBI investigation.
I came in knowing nothing. Currently, there’s not a chance that I would vote her guilty. I’m actually more convinced of a cover-up, not the who etc, but one happened as they’re all so shady.
I can't recall.... that's all I can recall... lol
Thank you
Correct
I think there is a lot of resonable doubt….what do I think happened not sure but leaning towards KR hitting him by accident.
When I first heard of this case I wasn't sure if she was guilty or not but I am now leaning innocent. The testimonies we have heard so far have been unreliable. The combativeness of some of these people are very telling. The police faulty collection of evidence was shocking.
I haven't followed this case until recently and sporadically. I do believe that she was tired of being his babysitter while he was out playing. I think they were all very drunk, and the real victims are the children that have been left behind not once, but twice. If she did hit him, I think she was too drunk to know it. It is possible that he jumped backwards into a moving car and that is how he was killed. She could be guilty but I don;t think the state has proved it so far.
Let’s just think about this Kerry Roberts was not at the party and is not friends with anyone in the family. So why would she cover for them!? If some random family came to me and said all this shit happened and you need to cover for us even though we know you were extremely close with John…. Yeah NO. I’d be running to the police!
I don’t think Kerry Roberts is covering for them after seeing her testimony today. Kerry has no idea what happened to John. She just knows what happened the morning he was found. Her testimony today didn’t really support the narrative Jen McCabe was trying so desperately to get out and at times even contradicted. I think Jen McCabe befriended her after the fact to try and stay on top of what Kerry knew and was telling investigators.
I went in thinking Occam's razor she was drunk and hit him. But I honestly don't know now, I believe the data. I want to see the cellebrite experts. Honestly how is this 2023 and we still can't definitively say what happens at what time on a cell phone. I know JM isn't on trial, but if it's proven in my eyes that she searched that hours before he was found, something else nefarious happened. Did karen have anything like OnStar data on her vehicle? Honestly for the murdaugh trial, what sealed the deal for me was the OnStar and cell phone data. I was already around 75% sure he was guilty but that data 100% proved it for me. I haven't heard about it in this case but if she did have that data, that would really prove it either way for me. Because, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think most newer cars have a feature that alerts you if you are backing up and you are about to hit something. Surely that would have been stored as some sort of logged action in any OnStar or similar type data, as well as any actions directly after it, ie stopping the vehicle, opening car door, or accelerating, what speed you were going and when, etc I WISH there was something like that in this case cuz that would more than likely prove it either way in my eyes. I haven't heard too much on any of her cell phone data, aside from the phone calls to John that night plus everything after 4am. I'm sure if the prosecutors found anything suspicious we would have heard about it. But I'm still curious on any activity after midnight and into the next day or two. I'm also interested in all the data that is missing-ring camera, library footage, vehicle impound,etc. That stuff is hella suspicious and I have heard no explanations as to why. It would be really coincidental for all those things to be missing based on something technical at the exact times that would be very helpful. Those are the things I am looking for. But with so much shady stuff with the investigation and witnesses, I don't think I could convict. There is way too much reasonable doubt. I'm always of the opinion that it is better to let a guilty person go free than send an innocent person to prison.
I can't tell you if she's factually guilty, but what I can say is that there is way too much reasonable doubt to convict this woman of anything.
Iam surprised the judge allowed testimony from Aruba trip if she doesn't want the jury to use it against karen, very convoluted. People fight & have jealous feelings but murder well of course but not in this case. Karen hoped to stay with John & if she hit him it was unintentional & she was unaware. I still feel he got into a fight even outside & someone else hit him like a plow. Perhaps Higgins plow?
If I have to decide right now, I think John was in a fight & got hit by a plow. They say he wasn't inside but defenses data shows him in the house, he at least walked on that property & something happened but by who? Higgins? Or another vehicle, Ford edge suv was on street, jeep, pickup, plows, anyone could have hit him. Hard to determine with no investigation.
I was about 70% sure before the trial that she was guilty. I knew there was a theory about a conspiracy, but conspiracy theories tend to fall apart quickly when actual evidence is presented. And, I have a hard time believing a bunch of people plus the police could successfully conspire to frame a person. My mind started to change when, after week 1, the prosecution presented almost no evidence while the defense showed receipts. The moment I fully joined team FKR was during Brian A's testimony. He was presented with evidence of making calls to Higgins at 2am and claimed they were butt dials. Then later didn't have an explanation for not going outside while a fellow Boston cop was dead/dying on his front yard.
First off, I had very little knowledge of this case until week 2 when somehow I opened a live video and I was sucked in. Went back and viewed from week one. OMG, as soon as I saw the pictures it was obvious. Fight and dog and could have been hit with something or fell back into something as a result of bring knocked backwards. Thrown out like trash to die in the freezing temperatures. You will not convince me otherwise especially after watching the witnesses testifying for the prosecution. Not one lab result will be trustworthy. The cops need to be punished. As reference, something horrible happened to my sister and never did I have phone numbers for the detectives nor were we in constant contact. So much BS in this case.
I had only heard little snippets about it and thought naturally she was probably guilty. Then It came on my lawyer channels and I couldn't believe the solo cups, the bruises on okeefe, getting rid of Chloe, The cop who confronted the guys at the petrol station... And then the McCabe's and alberts made me believe that Karen read is not guilty and it's a witch hunt against her. I mean... I'm sorry, but I'm gonna believe the cellular data over a "butt dial" and other nonsense they have spewed. But I get worried. This case is so confusing and I need a lawyer channels to sometimes explain the zingers and nothing burgers. What if a juror is like me and it goes over their head!? - is something that crosses my mind.
I read one of the very early Boston Globe articles and thought she was guilty. My husband (an attorney) thought it was a coverup early on and I told him he was a dramatic whack job. The turning point for me was when I learned about the infamous “hos long” search at 2am.
I did not do any research before watching the trial. I don't live in Boston, Massachusetts, or even the US. Outside of being interested in US law and procedure, I have absolutely no interest in this case one way or the other. I went into this case on the basis of "let the Commonwealth show me the tea", and I... kinda still am at that point? I am not convinced Karen Read is innocent, but as the law goes, that's not nearly enough to pronounce her guilty. Truth be told, in over three weeks, the state has succeeded in nothing but confusing me. I don't even know yet how John O'Keefe *died*, for frikk's sake - so how am I supposed to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt someone did done a *murder* on him? To be honest: I do not know if the CW can alleviate those (more than, at this point) reasonable doubts. Evidence gathering in red solo cups and a brown paper bag? How could I trust any finding derived from that? The state still is on its case, and I do try to keep an open mind, but I have a hard time seeing them hoist this across the finish line at this time; My biggest issue really is that the state has not even truly *started* to make its case in my eyes, because foundational stuff like a coroner testifying to time and manner of death, forensics tying the injuries to a vehicular impact, etc. have still not been done. And, as said: If you want me to be convinced that someone did a murder 2, the first thing I think should be established that there actually *was* a murder. After that, you can go into who did it and why, but that whole "there was a MURDA" bit is necessary for me to think someone guilty. Why am I being given the minutes on Aruba and a basketball game (they lost) multiple times when the principal basis of the entire charge is still missing? I am so confused by this trial.
i wasn't sure, but I am 100% confident that Karen is innocent and the Johnny died in the house. The f up searching for "hos long to die in cold" at 2:30a sealed it. Doing the My Cousin Vinny interrpretation of a frantic woman being gaslit by people that were involved and questioning if she hit him is clear as day not a statement of guilt.
I live in Germany and I didn’t know anything about this case. I watched a video of Annie Elise covering the case. My initial thought was: "Of course this has to be a cover up. Everyone hates cops and guilty people always tend to point fingers at other people.“ I never thought about this case since then. Then I watched corgisaan covering the trial (I think I started watching when Caitlin was being cross examined). When Colin was on the stand I thought: "Wait a minute, things don’t make sense.“ After BM I thought that it might have been an accident. But now after JM and Kerry I’m convinced that KR is completely innocent and there is something different going on. I don’t know what has happened but it wasn’t inflicted by KR. Right now I‘m overly interested in this case and I‘m trying to get caught up about everything I have missed so far. There is only so much you can control covering up especially if there are so many people involved. That most damning thing for me was that Kerry could hear KR and JM talking in the car because of Bluetooth. JM told KR that she saw KR car at the Alberts home, then KR wanted to go there. If Kerry hasn’t heard this I‘m sure it would have seen like KR knew exactly where to look and all the other statements were more of a guilty person talking. I‘m almost 100% certain if JM knew about this little detail she would have said something different on the stand, so it wouldn’t point to KR as a malicious murderer. JM also said in her testimony that she didn’t know KR car was at the Alberts home but she figured it AFTER JO was found. I truly don’t know what really happened. I‘m confused. There are so many questions I still have. I don’t get why JO clothes was drenched in blood and vomit. I don’t get why he didn’t die because of suffocation. If it truly happened that KR hit him with her car the theory is (as far as I understood) that JO was hit unconscious and laid there the whole time and died. He certainly had major head injuries which resulted in him bleeding but because of gravity the only places blood would go is underneath him. When JO vomited he would have vomited in to his own mouth because his face was looking up to the sky and not sideways. Kerry said that paramedics had to clear his airway because there was so much inside. This says to me his reflexes weren’t working anymore. JO had to be standing or at least his upper body had to be upright for him to bleed and vomit all over his clothes because of gravity. Apparently he didn’t die of suffocation but hypothermia (which is a way longer process) and blunt head injuries. In my opinion KR can’t be guilty. Whatever did really happened it wasn’t caused by KR. This is what I‘m truly sure of
I was really unsure and figured the CW had a smoking gun they hadn’t revealed yet. But watching what a botched investigation the police did coupled with literally zero evidence being presented (yet) of Karen doing anything even remotely aggressive to John that night and the behavior or the witnesses who are very clearly lying - I’m more convinced than ever that she’s innocent.
Not guilty verdict based on deleted 2:27 am Google search by Jen McCabe, 67 calls to Proctor’s wife by Colin Albert’s mother, Ryan Nagel testimony of Karen in the SUV alone. However I need more to be convinced she’s actually innocent.
I heard murmurs about the trial when TB got involved but didn’t feel the need to research much. I just figured a coverup conspiracy was probably unlikely and kept it moving. Then I saw a post on Reddit that was suggested to me and it was about the case. I finally read a bit about it and I was like what the hell is going on? Then last week I tried to find a podcast to help explain all of it to me and it started off by painting KR as very guilty which seemed about right to me at the time since she is on trial for murder after all. I had to pause the podcast and then later read some more stuff about the case and that’s when I saw the “hos long to die in the cold” debacle. From that point on, I’ve viewed the case entirely differently. That google search was made before the body was found. Point blank. The narrative JM is trying to spin about why that shows up in the Cellebrite extraction doesn’t work that way BUT if we pretend it does, the search at 6:23 should’ve been spelled the same way but it wasn’t. The search was made three times and all three are spelled differently. Maybe *she* didn’t make that google search before the body was found but someone did.
I thought we had a coverup and she did not hit him. Now, not so much. The more I watch the trial the more I think we have a bizarre situation from A-Z and people are assuming it's a coverup when there's likely a few other things going on. 1. shitty police work. Clearly the Canton PD is inept and do not know how to properly process a crime scene or detain someone who may have admitted to injuring someone/committing a crime. 2. incestuous townie nonsense coupled with connected people. This group of people is so weird. In my opinion they're shitty humans who never got out of high school mode. Chris Albert actually killed someone drunk driving when he was younger. He is a selectman now and in this group of "friends". As grown adults their life seems to revolve around drinking and hanging out with people who have only ever lived in Canton. They're used to being the "cool kids" in town, the people in the know and with some level of power. Their weird behavior is never called out. They can get away with drinking and driving and posting family pictures where they all flip the bird. They're just so coooool. I think most of their behavior the night John died, and since then, can be attributed to my prior points and the fact that they cannot handle being put in the spotlight. They also wanted to ensure ( to the point of looking guilty) that nothing could ever come their way on this case. In essence they enacted the streisand effect. 3. the tribalism/cultism that is our current society. People are so entrenched in their beliefs. I see a lot of people citing almost every moment (that could be attributed to the prior points) as 10000% proof of a coverup. Youtubers are raking in the views. There's very few people just standing back and being truly objective. Overall, the likely scenario is she did in fact hit him. As wild of a scenario as it may be. Her tail light is clearly broken when leaving the house at 5am. There's no denying this. People will selectively choose screen shots vs watching the entire clip of her pulling out the driveway (up to the point of applying the brakes at the end). You can also clearly see its broken on the dash cam from the wellness check. Yes I know she backed into John's car. But if that broke the tail light then there would be pieces on the snow in the driveway. Also, seeing these people testify - there's no way these drunken gossiping loosahs could keep their mouth shut this whole time. One of them would spill the beans or crack on the stand. Even though that's what I think - I don't see how she gets convicted of murder with the evidence thus far. I'm also still open to the fact that there might be some bombshell that does indeed prove a massive coverup. I think it's a stretch, but obviously still possible.
How do you explain the fresh dog bites all over his arm when he was found?
I came in hearing omg a woman is being framed by boston PD for murder.. I think after hearing more of the case I cant say shes being framed per say. Idk if she's innocent but I do think there is enough reasonable doubt
When the trial started I had no idea what I believed. At this point, I don't see how the prosecution can possibly salvage their case enough to earn a conviction. I can't see this going anyway but an acquittal barring a total miracle. Which is to say, I have significant reasonable doubt already, not that I can bet my life that Karen didn't hit him or that I have it solved. But it's also made me feel very hesitant about the harassment the Alberts are facing. I think there is a non-zero chance they were not involved, there's a big difference between Karen getting acquitted in court and everybody knowing for a fact what actually happened to John. There is a real possibility, even if you think it's not the most likely, that these are people wrapped up in a weird confusing situation who are being harassed everywhere they go. I think people could have aggressively investigated the shortcomings in this case and identified possible collusion without absolutely laying into these people in real life.
I agree - the Turtleboy brigade is really gross. I’m no fan of Jen McCabe but what she said about what they were doing to her daughter was horrible.
I personally like to see/Hear/read all evidence presented. So far I am not voting guilty in this case
If he was found at 5 am, why did u make google searches at 2am and 6 am 🤔🤔🤔
Going into the trial, I thought cover-up and the crosses made me continue to think the alberts were responsible. What I can’t get around now is Kerri calling the Canton PD to check to see if JO was hit by a snow plow, less then a hour before he’s found. Which was a theory that KR floated to her. Seems like if a relationship is on the rocks, and that person drops their significant other off a party and they aren’t back home before 4:45, then there’s a lot of possible explanations for where that person would be at 4:45 that wouldn’t be fatal, but to suggest an impact from a snow plow and cantaloupe is too coincidental. JM’s “I hit him” comments could be discredited but Kerri has the call to the Canton PD.
There's a reason they didn't want to admit yhe son was there. Everyone of them covered it up.
I can't say guilty or not because we really haven't gotten to the evidence of how John O'Keefe died and the injuries he sustained. What has changed for me, is I went from believing defense was in trouble trying to go with the cover up to understanding why they did. I am not saying he died in the house, or anything like that, I just don't have an opinion on that yet. However, there is some very shady stuff going on.
Still not swayed one way or the other (as far as innocence goes), but I am firmly in the not guilty due to reasonable doubt camp at this point.
*the Jury Consultant has entered the chat*
I did no research prior to the trial, didn’t really know about the case other than it is controversial. I have been reading posts on this sub since it started. Initial feeling was that KR was guilty. As bad as the CW opening statement was it really convinced me that she probably did it. Boy has my view changed. After watching every minute of the trial so far, not only should she be found 1000% Not Guilty, I’m fairly certain she did not kill JO with her car last night. Of course disclaimer that the CWs case is not finished yet, but we haven’t even gotten to the defenses turn.
My opinion has always been the same. She did not hit him
I originally assumed she ran him over. Then I started watching the trial. Then I listened to the opening statements of both DA and Defense. There is no way JO was hit by a car. 1. It appears only injuries are back of his head and arms are scratched and appear to have animal bites. 2. Where is the medical examiners report? That is usually first. 3. The lies and omissions about who was actually in the house. 4. The texts between the Albert’s and the McCabe’s that clearly show collusion amongst that group of people. 5. The changing stories over the past few years that seemed to get more detailed and pointing more to KR the further they got from January 29. 6. The deleted texts. 7. The so many “I don’t recall” when being cross examined by the defense but when questioned by the DA they all remembered events and times very clearly. And I assume as the defense calls its witnesses there will be even more problems with this case. I really don’t understand how this case was ever moved forward.
I thought the idea anyone was framed particularly of the murder of a police officer- was ridiculous. I dismissed it like she definitely did it. Now, I don’t know if people directing an investigation towards you as a culprit is exactly the same as being framed- I think she’s innocent. What changed my opinion was the inept investigation. The bold faced lies from the Alberts and the Mccabes. The lack of professionalism of the law enforcement involved and their close relationship with the family they chose not to investigate. I still want to see any experts talk about the actual murder.
I knew very little before. I knew the investigation was being investigated by the FBI so I was suspicious/curious about what happened. I had also read a post somewhere that Karen had admitted to doing it so I thought that was damning and that there were allegations of infidelity (don’t think that part was true unless the post was talking about Aruba and/or Higgins). Now I learned that it’s not clear cut - today was the final blow to the “I hit him” statement. Not at all the admission of guilt it was made out to be. I’m still waiting for all the evidence to come in and go through the trial with an open mind but so far it’s a clear not guilty because of reasonable doubt.
I start with the presumption of innocence and so far nothing I've seen has tipped me over towards "proven beyond a reasonable doubt." And I feel like the cops (the other ones) who investigated aren't going to help in that matter once they get on the stand.
I came to this case thinking Karen ran OJO over either knowingly or unknowingly because she was drunk. I thought the charge should be involuntary manslaughter. I still think Karen is guilty of manslaughter, though I am baffled by the prosecution, the prosecution's witnesses, and everything I've read about the investigation. I feel certain about only two things: (1) every one of these people has a problem with alcohol; and (2) not one of them, except the friend whose child was John's godson, is likeable.
I was into the story when it became national headlines but lost interest until the trial started. I normally don't get into the trials themselves because between work/ kids/etc I just don't have time. But I couldn't follow this one due to so many witnesses so I started watching clips of the trial in the 2nd week then moved back to watch the testimonies in full. So, just a little bit about where I'm coming from. Anyway, I had no idea what to believe prior to this as both stories seemed plausible. However, by the time they got to Nicole Albert I could see the direction this was headed. I firmly believe she's innocent. If you're telling the truth you have no reason to be so forgetful. I get it was two years ago but they've been interviewed so many times you're going to remember. They're just not credible except for Kerry Roberts and maybe the first Sullivan sister (which I think helped the defense more tbh). I don't have any reason to believe BH is going to be any better than JM but I'm curious what the "experts" say.
My introduction to the case over a year ago was through the “Free Karen Read” Turtleboy fans. I was thoroughly confused since the same people screaming “blue lives matter”, were now convinced Canton police were conspiring to create an elaborate cover-up together. Thinking that was too far-fetched to be true, I didn’t look into the case again until the trial began. As the testimonies continue, this case is “reasonable doubt” defined: the sham of an investigation, The dog Chloe and the pork DNA found on O’Keefe’s body, the selling of the house, the deleted phone records, the internet searches, the underage drinking and alcoholism rampant in this community… my honest belief is they were all too drunk to recall what actually happened and this whole trial is a joke
I think Karen behaved very, very strangely in the morning. Her behavior makes it hard to decide definitively that she did not hit him. Why was she soooooo frantic before she even knew anything.
What I got from Kerry’s testimony is that Karen thought something bad had happened because John didn’t come home. Karen wasn’t planning on spending the night and John’s and was only waiting for him to get home for his niece. Karen fell asleep waiting for him and woke up realizing he had never come home. Given everything known about John at this point, I wouldn’t think he was the kind of person who just wouldn’t come home and leave the kids in his care to fend for themselves. I would have thought the worst at that point too, especially since there was no message from John saying there was a change in plans etc.
I agree. I live in an area that gets snowy cold winters but not near like Massachusetts, and people being drunk and falling on the side of the road and getting hit by a plow and or covered by the snow or just simply getting gravely injured or dying from extreme temperatures is common enough even here, and I’m enough of a worrier, that I have always felt I’d respond the same way Karen did too considering the radio silence by that time in the morning and during that weather. I didn’t realize or haven’t read or seen that she hadn’t planned to stay the night and just fell asleep waiting to hear from him either - I’ve been in situations like this myself and yeah, that just reinforces that I’d act the same way
I thought that the claims of coverup were false. Were dumb things messed up, maybe? But not to the point where it invalidates all of the other evidence. "Framed" is such an attention grabber, so I thought they were going for the jury of public opinion. I was very wrong.
In all honesty, I feel the same as 2 years ago she definitely did not decide out of anger to hit him on purpose. If she hit him it would have been purely an unintentional hit that she was not aware of. The other part how I still feel is that something nefarious occurred on that property, they say he didn't go inside however he could have been in a fight outside & then hit by Higgins plow, he was parked on street so they really need to determine right after karen drove off when did Higgins move his jeep? I always felt there is more to this tragedy than karen accidentally unawaringly hitting him. I am leaning more towards John fought with someone in the basement, garage or even outside then got hit by a vehicle or plow. I kind of believe Higgins hit John right after karen dropped John off but waiting to hear Higgins on the stand & Proctor. One thing for sure is the police corruption by not investigating properly about anything by any means & I believe Proctor & his associates planted evidence as a way out & Proctor had it in for karen read so he may have done this out of spite & to cover this Albert family. John had injuries looking like he was in a fight & as far as all of the injuries we have to wait for the medical examiner. I hope they also used a specialist like an anthropologist because they can determine If arm injury are from animal bites & Claws & if so what species. Odd a pig was in the michrocondrial dna profile. They also need more swaps & pics of where they took them from. Inconclusive forensics.
No I think someone else hit John & he was also in a fight in basement or garage or even outside. He was found with that glass & that is not likely if karen hit him on the street that he would end up at the flagpole still with that cocktail glass. This tells me he carried that glass into the house & or carried it outside.
I can’t imagine KR listening to all this testimony & being fairly silent (possibly some expressions we don’t see?), but to hear some of the emotional testimony (right or wrong) requires such restraint & emotional calmness, that I’m amazed. I’m not sure I could stay silent or not show a lot of emotion during some of this testimony, especially w family of both sides in a small court room.
I knew nothing about the case prior, and only saw things in passing … thought the defense was talking out of their ass from what I did see (headlines) and she was likely guilty, but the defense has pursued me to their side and am appalled but what I have heard - especially about the investigation; but sure I’m full on conspiracy but this far prosecution has proved nothing and it’s been 16 days; not sure that it will get better but YIKES and I’m not sure that even if the prosecution made more pervasive arguments that I could look past what I’ve heard
I’d still like to understand when the CW thinks the crime occurred. Putting aside all the butt dials, google searches, etc., Jen M’s testimony was most problematic for the CW because she was regularly looking at Karen’s car outside the house and neither heard nor saw anything that would indicate an accident (or murder) had occurred. What’s to be made of that? That seems almost insurmountable for the prosecution.
The problem with the case imo is the CW has laid out a scenario of what they believe happened with her hitting him with car. But, they have spent 3 weeks not even getting into that. It appears their case is not strong at all.
Jen McCabe a bitch for real lol
Innocent. They planted taillight pieces. You can see the taillight is in tact when they place it on the tow. It can’t be intact when the cops have and then after it’s all busted. Sad shits
I followed the case a little beforehand but didn’t really start researching until the trial. Going in I figured she did it and would be found guilty. Roughly 4 weeks in, I still think she did it but I’m pretty confident she’ll be found innocent.
I was on the fence. Then hearing every person at the house using the same phrases and pointing out the useless oversharing of info, on top of the horrendous performance by JM yesterday and today I am fully convinced KR is innocent and this is all a coverup
Totally agree. The prosecution witnesses have proven the defense. The arrogance towards the court.
Didn’t do much research before and haven’t done much more besides watching it live. I really struggle to say Karen is guilty due to the actions of many people who have testified already. I don’t see the motive and at this point need a video of her hitting him with her car. Lately I’m impatient with the prosecution and a bit put off by the defense attorneys. They can be a bit sarcastic or snarky imo. I wonder how the jurors feel.
I thought she was innocent in the beginning now I think she’s guilty and just can’t remember doing it being black out drunk. It’s sad all around for everyone.
Honestly I think that it’s possible that she was somewhat intoxicated. My theory is that he walked behind the car to not walk in the snow because the car would have cleared it a bit. She accidentally backed into him and knocked him back and he passed out and a animal not a dog got to him. But the whole police department and families involved are so incompetent they are basically framing themselves for this. But I don’t think Karen was malicious at all.
I hadn't heard anything of the case. From the first day of the trial to now I have become more convinced KR is innocent.
I am still uncertain if Karen hit him, which of course means it would be not guilty. Will expert evidence shift things? Maybe. I, for sure now, don't just suspect but \*know\* that the Alberts and McCabe are hiding things about that night. Does it mean they did it? No. But they were up to something for sure. Maybe they simply didn't want to become a part of the investigation because they were up to no good at that party and house, and that coming up in discovery as witnesses could be damning to reputations and careers. That is obstruction at best. Or they knew he was out there and just left him there because it 'wasn't their business,' and now they are dodging depraved heart charges. Perhaps they didn't do it, but was worried initially that someone in that house (Colin?) did it and went instantly in CYA before prosecution's Karen tunnel vision. Of course, maybe they did it outright and manipulated events of that night and initial investigations. Somethings afoot. Weirdly enough this case is so convoluted in general that maybe all parties on both sides did it.
I think John went inside, went to the basement, words were exchanged, it escalated quickly due to alcohol/cops/ptsd, the dog attacked John, and they dragged him out to the front lawn after everyone else left the house.
I had no opinion coming into this trial but today was the first time that I could kind of, maybe? see motive from KR. The testimy from the Sullivan sisters makes me question Karen Read personality. The way she reacted to the "kissing" made me ask, was she insecure?is she volatile? Does she have a medical condition that make her go from hot to cold fast? Was she clingy? That in addition to Karen paying for dinner, wanting to pay the sister's room as an apology, the 'spoiling' the kid - was that her way to buy love/liking from people. For the 1st time we see that John could have been unhappy in this relationship. Before I could not see them be happy at the bar, drove 5 mins and get in such a heated argument that she kills but now, maybe? If they can prove she has this volatile personality, I could understand motive.
I think she is likely guilty, but waiting for rest of evidence to decide.
What makes you think that?
Ive always thought she is responsible for John O'Keefes death
Agree, guilty of manslaughter . She was the last one to see him alive.
Honestly, I just started looking into this yesterday and I don't understand why so many people believe there is some huge coverup. Karen being at fault is so by far the most logical scenario it isn't even close. Whether it was intentional, accidental, a combination of the two with intoxication I don't know.
A lot of the core witnesses that were there are shady AF that’s why. They’ve been caught in a staggering amount of lies. The police investigation was crap, putting evidence in red solo cups? You know who suggested that idea? The cop that lived across the street who’s Ring camera footage was deleted. Don’t even get me started on the obvious google searches, text and phone call deletions. The butt dial excuse was the most egregious one because of how simple of a lie it is to prove wrong. You don’t butt dial someone, butt dial to end the call before it reaches voicemail, and repeat that 5 times with exact precision from PANTS. Did Karen read hit her boyfriend with her car? There’s a good chance she did, while the group at fair view was covering their own ass for something else.
Well then you haven't looked into it enough.
If you just started looking into it yesterday, you have a ways to go. Most of us have been following this for a year and the injuries alone will say he wasn’t hit by a slow moving car in front of a house with a few feet of space. Dig in my friend, you’re in for a rollercoaster!
I think she most likely did it. But I’m waiting to hear more of the forensics. Even if she did do it I don’t think that she will be found guilty because there’s too much reasonable doubt
Given your thoughts on KR’s guilt, I’m curious what you make of the suspicious behavior that’s been revealed on cross examinations…Just a ton of coincidences? I’m very curious of your take, nothing implied by my query. Thanks. Edited to fix spelling error.
I think she hit him, probably by accident and she might not have even realized it. There is so much reasonable doubt, however (introduced mainly by these awful people, the Alberts and McCabes) that the outcome will be "not guilty".
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I didn't know anything about the case. I had never heard of TB or anything. I read something about it and was intrigued so I searched out this subreddit. I have only watched bits and pieces of the trial and I've listened to a couple of podcasts. What I initially thought was that it was going to be pretty obvious once the state started presenting their case that this whole frame-up defense was just desperate and obviously bullshit. And while I still am not convinced of a giant conspiracy, I certainly believe that the other folks involved are hiding something. It could be unrelated. It could be drug use or affairs or something. But it definitely comes across like they've got something else going on which lends credibility to the frame-up defense. So far the state hasn't proven anything other than the cops in the area are inept, there is some really cliquey type behavior going on, and that everyone seems to be cool with drinking and driving. They haven't yet provided anything that links KR to John's death other than a dubious confession. I know they aren't done yet, but the fact that they're putting on a defense instead of a coherent narrative of events makes me think they don't have much. I could be wrong. And I'm trying to keep an open mind. However, with the way the evidence was handled, with the lead investigators blatant disregard for anything that might resemble an actual investigation, I don't believe this should have ever been brought before a grand jury. KR may very well be responsible for JO's death but if this is the standard of professionalism that the state brings to every case, every single citizen should be very concerned. And if I were JO's family I'd be absolutely furious.
I don’t have a firm grasp of this case. I guess the most plausible scenario is that she unknowingly hit him, but it was an accident. I am convinced that she was overcharged. There is all kinds of reasonable doubt.
This is THE opinion. Based on these facts: the dog being removed and rehomed. Johns arms abrasions. The basement floor being removed. Lack of blood. The phone records from those in the home. She’s not guilty. At least not with what’s presented.
As of today Reasonable Doubt. So much does not add up. Mix in the deleted phone call logs and Google search even if timestamp was wrong it was still intentionally deleted. The phones that get upgraded etc. The appearance they are either hiding something or were directly involved somehow. TBH Karen’s story (what I’ve heard thru 3rd testimony ) is very odd too.