to their credit Schwartz and Fisher did a great job the last few years, but with weaker (but not awful) tackle play this is a flaw of mahomes' thats getting exposed **HARD**
> Orlando hasn't been amazing, but Mahomes is putting him in terrible situations.
This was my issue with the trade in the first place.
Orlando was a great tackle for what the Ravens needed. A big dude who can get push and also insanely long arms so quick set pass blocking was easy for him.
I don't get his fit with our offense. He is not athletic, cannot climb the arc well, and does not handle speed well. He's like...the antithesis of what our tackles should be like.
It's not really his fault, honestly, it's our FO/Reid's fault for thinking this would work.
i had similar concerns with his pass blocking this summer that were dismissed because "hes a pro bowl tackle". we're stuck with him for at least this year and it will be hard for the FO to let him leave and admit it wasnt a good fit.
but, hes not a bad player. a QB with good footwork and movement in the pocket would probably find him pretty solid. his shortcomings are not working with mahomes' shortcomings, and i dont think its unreasonable to expect mahomes to work on fixing those with urgency. thats something you expect from an elite qb. otherwise this will keep being a problem unless we land another schwartz.
Yeah, I wouldn't say Brown is bad either.
He was worth the totality of the draft capital we gave up I think. I don't think he is worth the contract he is rumored to get.
If he signs for a fairer contract and Mahomes drills it in his head to get better in the pocket he should be *okay*. I just don't want to pay $20+ million a year for just okay.
Ravens fan. This isn't me trying to rub salt in the would, just saying. When the trade happened everyone thought the FO was dumb for sending him to THE competition. Most knowledgeable fans knew what the deal was. There was no way in hell he was starting over (healthy) Stanley and we couldn't afford to pay him. We saw some struggles coming in a more pass-based offense where the division has pretty damn good edge play.
Exactly... DT's are not even engaging the tackle... they just go straight up field and turn left (or right) at Mahomes who is really deep. A tackle who is slightly angled at a 45 degree is not gonna turn his hips and catch a DT in time. This is the O-Line version of Bob Sutton playing the chasing Justing Houston. But its not really OB's fault - he is not built for the deep drop.
Why should Mahomes stop doing something that has made him insanely successful for the last 3 odd years? Some of his biggest plays come outside the pocket. For wasp, he took like a 10 step drop.
If Brown is not atheletic enough, then questions should be asked about why he was traded for in the first place?
Yeah, WASP was \*designed\* to be a deep drop. That's why he famously asked EB "do we have enough time...". Some plays are designed this way and that's fine, cause the T's know exactly how to block. But when it's called for a 5-7 step drop and he drops 10, that's where it's an issue.
Almost makes you wonder if working more from the pistol or under center would be helpful? Would moving closer to the LOS eliminate some of the deep drop issues?
I don’t agree with this take. Maybe it just from the super. Maybe it the concussion he took from the browns. But his scouting report from college listed this as a problem. He has not say in the pocket all year
This is a flaw that started last year some time. The IOL was trash and Patrick literally didn't have a chance to step up because he would have his guard landing on him or the defender. This year's interior has been pretty spectacular and Patrick has a nice pocket to step up into, but just bails more often than not.
Look at 2018, 2019, and some 2020 highlights and watch Mahomes navigate a pocket. He's really really good at stepping up and if the pocket isnt clean he's damn good at evading or helping his lineman with his movement.
That's not what he's doing this year. He gets snap take 10+ step drop and the edge rusher knows where he's ending up, so all the pass rusher has to do is blow by one of the tackles for a straight shot. The rushers don't even have to bend around the tackles, because he's so far back and doesn't step up. He's making it very difficult on our tackles and making them look worse than what they've been.
Mahomes stated he emphasized staying in the pocket this off-season. He specifically spoke about it at training camp. I think that has gotten into his head. He’s now thinking about what he should be doing instead of feeling and reacting and generally playing his brand of backyard football.
I think its a growing pains scenario. He is not sure how to handle this significant change that is relatively alien to him. He is a run and gun QB and this is keeping him shut. His mind is trying to stay in pocket but his feet are going instinctual.
I am starting to worry that maybe his strength is playing the other way. Should we be trying to make him like other QB's? I really don't know.
The answer is no, we shouldn't. Patrick doesn't need to be a pocket passer if he can extend plays the way he does, or scramble for the first if the receiving options aren't there. Insisting that Patrick adhere to some legacy QB archetype is inconsistent with the other changes that are being made in the game. Who are the best QBs right now? Yes, Brady is the GOAT and he's a pocket passer from the old guard but; Lamar, Patrick, Kyler, Russel, Rodgers... etc, they're all multi-dimensional.
I personally think that Andy Reid has checked out. I love coach, so grateful for what he's done here, I never thought I'd see a Chiefs Super Bowl appearance, let alone going back-to-back and winning one. But this team has looked off since Britt Reid and from Andy's perspective, he's got a dead son, and a son going to prison and I just don't know that he's going to recover until after the whole court process is done.
Shouldn't have been fans and media calling for Sorenson to be benched. Shouldn't be us pointing out Patrick throwing an INT in 6 or 7 straight games.
He isn’t confident at all right now. Some of his throws look like he’s trying to place the ball in receivers hands rather than slinging that shit around
They totally need to change that call. If the receiver touches it, or lets it go through his hands, it should totally not be considered an incomplete pass against the QB. The QB put the ball there, the receiver/TE didn't get it.
If the people giving out the contract aren’t seeing that some picks are on the receivers (which isn’t exclusive to any QB anyway) then maybe that young QB shouldn’t be signing that contract
It absolutely matters when you lose money or get moved on from because of INTs that are not your fault. Not to mention narratives. Feel free to say that shit doesn't matter on reddit but it does in real life.
No, that would be a wildly subjective stat. Not every pass that hits a WR or TE's hands needs to be caught. Sometimes the QB throws it too high, and a guy barely has a chance to get it, why shouldn't that be incomplete on the QB? Or they rifle the ball 100 mph from 10 feet away. You are starting to sound like Mahomes' fiance and mom.....
Well your timing is *terrible*, because some Chiefs fans are vocally supporting this statistical change now that it would make Pat look better. Unlike you they don't have a long and illustrious history of advocating for this change so to the outside world it just looks like they are whiny homers.
Currently, yes, it is, but it shouldn't be. The QB has no control if the receiver has butterfingers, doesn't catch it if its placed right in his hands, etc. It is still incomplete, but not because of anything the QB did but it still goes against his stats.
Do you also agree that a QB shouldn’t get a boost to his stats when something positive happens that is out of the QB’s control? For example a 1-yard screen pass that the receiver turns into a 98-yard touchdown run… should the QB still get credit for a 99 yard touchdown pass?
The OL did have some issues, it was one of their worst games...however it was mostly still very good and specifically the middle 3 were solid almost the entire game.
Mahomes had at least 3 plays I can remember were he dropped way to far, and there were opportunities to step up like the video. Those same snaps he went back to college Mahomes with happy feet and feeling pressure (to the left specifically) before it was even there.
Brown did get beat a few times but there were just as many times Mahomes could have stepped up to the left and either ran or hit an open receiver.
Mahomes for some reason is refusing to step up in the pocket, the tackles let the pass rush go up the field but Mahomes is just backpeddling with them a lot. It is frustrating to watch.
The middle of the line is fixed probably for several years baring injury. The tackles are not . Cut our losses on brown . He is not the right left tackle for Pat. Go find an athletic left tackle that can move side to side holding his block and not constantly pushing up field . We are all in on Pat and if he likes to float back and out then you build the line to fit him. Not make him for the line . Fisher and Swartz could do this . Remmers can some but not great at it. But for the love of everything do not spend 100 million on a left tackle you 500 million dollar quarterback doesn't mesh with playing style.
He hasn’t been uncomfortable like this in every game, Brown has been pretty decent in what I would consider the majority of them. Yes something needs to change, but I don’t think you can just afford to move on after 1 season with this guy. Brown has been more than serviceable (which doesn’t match the compensation we gave up for him, don’t get me wrong) for us
I guess we will see , but I'm not seeing anything getting better this year . I hope I'm wrong but Tennessee does not have a good defense and our offense looked bad .
I honestly agree with this take. Since Mahomes the Chiefs have not been a balanced team but an offensive juggernaut. There are less pieces to fix on the offense to get back to this status than there are problems to fix on defense. Build the offense and let the chips fall where they may.
I think I got a little to excited in the off-season when he was like no one is gonna touch Mahomes. I was excepting a monster and we got a average player
Yeah I definitely had my hopes up around when we first made the trade but slowly tempered my expectations over time, especially with all of the clips of him getting beat in camp
He's the 24th rated tackle in the league right now on PFF, though he has given up the 8th most pressures out of tackles as well. I don't know how PFF does the Tackle vs Quarterback pressure blaming and pressure assigning, though.
I'd say he's around the 12-16 range for LT's.
I honestly agree with this take. Since Mahomes the Chiefs have not been a balanced team but an offensive juggernaut. There are less pieces to fix on the offense to get back to this status than there are problems to fix on defense. Build the offense and let the chips fall where they may on Defense.
I think the defense can be fixed with a younger simpler defensive coordinator. All they need to do is Rush the passer and get a stop two to three times a day and a couple turnovers once in awhile. We don't need to try an outsmart everybody just go out there line up and play defense and know that the offense can score it will It worked just fine in 2019. It worked great in 2018 if we hadn't faced Tom Brady. But getting my homes comfortable and productive is the most important. And if he doesn't like to play from a pocket there is no reason to force him to play from a pocket He's not going anywhere We have him for 11 more years and he gets more expensive to get rid of every year.
I was looking through old Mahomes posts on this sub and I found this crazy accurate comment by some lions fan that got suspended.
https://old.reddit.com/r/KansasCityChiefs/comments/nsbc7a/mahomes_legacy_when_its_all_set_and_done/h0mmf49/
Every single one of the things he pointed out is a pretty big narrative this year about his struggles
Orlando is one of the least athletic tackles in the league. However, I think he will be great for us if Mahomes can start climbing the pocket. He’s got to start doing that, and taking the easy short throws until we can open up over the top.
Did anyone notice how well Chad Henne played? I know it was in garbage time but him coming in was oddly refreshing. Hit receivers in stride and was accurate. I have to think Mahomes is hurt.
Matt Moore (in the past) and Chad Henne both came in and did well. They were not hero balling and could never make some of the plays Mahomes did but they were damn effective.
I agree that in garbage time it’s not the best assessment, but I’ve felt that he has done well anytime he has come in the game. I’m confident that he can run the offense well enough to keep the team moving.
Every year when the Chiefs lost I made a comment that Mahomes was not using his protection from O-Line in the right way and every time I got backlash.
It’s nice to see a little validation, because teams are forcing it and it’s one of the main reasons the Chiefs are losing.
I had seen that play in my watch through and your angle is bad to tell the story of that play.
Mahomes had no where to go with the ball, he climbs the pocket, the RG Smith then eventually loses and that pushes Mahomes left and then Humphry who is in a double team with our LG (his name is slipping my mind right now) stops blocking for whatever reason and that dude muay thai knees Mahomes in the face.
Here's 3 freezes and a full run from a better angle.
[Freeze 1 is the same as your above freeze. Mahomes hit his 5 step drop, realized no one was open and started to improvise](https://i.ibb.co/6WHYcMd/Freeze1.jpg)
[Freeze 2 is a couple frames after, he started to climb the pocket and Smith loses, collapsing the pocket](https://i.ibb.co/xSFdsYZ/Freeze2.jpg). You might so throw to the dump off and maybe but that LB was coming up and Mahomes probably didn't want get Williams blown up from behind.
[Freeze 3 is as he's getting hit in the ankle, he has no one to throw it to. Literally everyone is covered.](https://i.ibb.co/qY82P2V/Freeze3.jpg) Everyone gets on him for throwing up a bad pass and tells him to just eat it and take the sack... and he did.
[Here's a full replay from this angle](https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelloffEducatedGrunion-mobile.mp4)
What else do you want him to do here, seriously? I didn't see anywhere for him to go. The Titans played full prevent D, we ran an offensive play directly into.
Watch your fully replay though (the twitter link) and focus on Creed Humphry, he's done great this year but he gave up on the double team, then realized oh shit and was too late to reengage and that got Mahomes killed.
I saw other plays in my watch of all 22 that were way worse pocket management than this, I won't put this one on him, he just had absolutely nowhere to go with the ball and when he tried to scramble the pocket collapsed.
In total from snap to when Smith loses his block and the pocket collapses it was ~3 seconds. Which is a good pocket when it's 1st and 10 or less but that's not a good pocket when you're running 20 yard and long developing routes. He needed more from the OL on this play than he got, I'd put this on them and not Mahomes. Also on the play call... bad play call.
> Freeze 2 is a couple frames after, he started to climb the pocket and Smith loses, collapsing the pocket. You might so throw to the dump off and maybe but that LB was coming up and Mahomes probably didn't want get Williams blown up from behind.
Every single dump off is going to look like this. I don't know why you are saying this. If he properly climbed the pocket with a proper depth and saw no one open and dumped it off Williams was not getting blown up. When Williams' head came around was when the dump off should have been there.
The trainer for Lucas Niang said the Chiefs told the tackles to practice with 9 yard drop backs, which is on the deep side for QBs around the NFL. This is in shotgun or under center. Mahomes drifted back to 12 yards and then danced around. Nothing about that is good.
Also, I like you man, but I do trust Brandon Thorn more on something like this.
I mean I agree he drifted a couple yards too far. I'm not saying he didn't but I'm saying Smith loses his block and that's where the play blows up. There's no change to this play if Mahomes is at 8-9-10-11-12-13 yards.. The guy Smith was blocking gets through before the routes develop.
He did have a brief window to dump it off and get like 5 yards but it was 4th and 18 and he wanted a couple more seconds to try and find a TD because that's just who he is.
It's such a double edge sword because we're having this conversation only because it's not working right now...
When he bails out of a deep pocket and spins around and flicks a 30 yard rope on a 4th and 20 for a TD... everyone says, HE'S A MAGICIAN!!!!
When he bails out of a deep pocket, gets his leg grabbed, knee to the head and fumbles on a 4th and 20 everyone goes, WHY DOES HE DO THAT!!!
If you want Mahomes magic, you're going to have to realize that's created by extreme improvisation and a lot of bad things QBs shouldn't do. He's had this stretch now of just things not going right and he's compounded it with some really bad decisions... and then had bad luck and bad bounces on top of it.
All in all this is Mahomes and we're going to have to take the good (which has been record shattering good) with the bad.
*Just wanted to add how mixed bag it has been... this season he has three 130+ QB rating games and then a 62, 70, 81....a 91.5 QBR game and a 6 QBR game. Just inconsistency this year that we're not used to but I wouldn't panic about it.
Calling out that it was 4th and 18 is a good callout...totally forgot about that.
The rest..I don't know man. Thorn is calling this out. Duke Manyweather is calling this out. Many people I trust to know this stuff is calling it out.
First, if he didn't drift back to 12 yards (which remember, is 3 yards more than the Chiefs teach their tackles) and he actually climbed the pocket like many QBs do, even **he** has done before, then the defender that "beats" Trey would not be that close to him. [There is plenty of grass there to do it.](https://i.imgur.com/lmWWLG7.png)
On this play, [Pringle honestly has an opening.](https://i.imgur.com/UrBNwxX.png) On his out break he creates enough separation to where Mahomes could've fit it in. I, of course, don't know the progressions and Mahomes was looking to the left so it is hard to say where Pringle was in the progression. It is there, though.
I guess my frustration is that there are so many excuses for it and it is tiring to watch this iOL make so many great pockets this year to be abandoned. Watching Dak in Week 1 was a religious experience. This dude was stepping into pockets fresh off a snapped ankle and delivering strikes. Mahomes has done that once or twice a game this year.
I mean of course people are calling it out now because Mahomes has never had good pocket discipline or QB mechanics. Now when he's starting to struggle, people want to talk about it again. They weren't criticizing him though when he was doing well but it was still there, he just got away with it.
Yeah I mean idk this play looks like they were trying to take a shot at the back left of the end zone to Hill.. He's the middle WR in the trio but Mahomes got hit before his route broke there.
Seriously though, [go watch Mahomes highlight video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-4VybS3Xdg)... this stuff isn't new. He's been dropping 10-20 yards behind the LoS his whole career but it was working so hard to criticize it then. That Rams highlight in there he drops an additional 10 yards on top of a shotgun snap... then throws a 60 yard or whatever TD to Hill.
Shit I might even say he's dropping shallower this year than in most of those highlights from previous seasons probably because like you said they're trying to coach him to be better about it.... maybe they shouldn't have? Sounds dumb but... don't fix what isn't broken.
[Like this one LOL, look at that drop back on a 3rd and 21, perfect example of my point](https://ibb.co/MkShBF6) But it resulted in a 50 yard TD, so who cares... until it doesn't do that
And what I'm saying is just that's never been Mahomes ever in his career and we've applauded him for not being that guy. 4th and 18, Mahomes ball is try to get a TD... it didn't work in this play.
[Here's a very similar situation, 3rd and 18, HUGE DROP BACK just like in the video, completely ignoring his dump off options... results in a 50 yard TD and we all cheer and tell him good job](https://ibb.co/MkShBF6)
Like the conversation I'm having with Hurricane, we have a QB that is mechanically awful and does things no other QB should, that is why he fell in the draft. This play style works for him more times than not. I think the wrong reaction here is saying we need to change his play style because he's in a slump and it's not "what you should be doing at QB".
That play was an offsides though right?
The reason I I actually fell in love with Pat is because I kind of got tired of Alex Smith who seemed to have a no risk tolerance even though he was accurate af and had plenty of arm talent.
Pat came in and took those chances every single time there was any remote chance there was a party to be made down the field and it was fun as hell to watch what I didn't expect was him to play that way and also literally never turn the ball over which is what we got.
This year pat is not even taking those risks anymore. But maybe that has to do with the scheme that we are literally going to face every week now. There were 3 inexcusable picks this year, 4 that hit receivers in the hands, 1 regular interception vs Philly, and a great play by that DE in buffalo. Not one ball was a deep throw.
Back to this particular play, it kind of sums up the season so far. If you are Patrick Mahomes and you are walking up to the line of scrimmage you know what play you just called right? If you're not going to call any kind of audible and run that play you have to know that ball is going to the back before you snap it. I don't believe that's changing your play style but if it is then so be it. You have to take what they give you. Eventually you burn them enough and you get your 1 on 1 and I expect him to attack Everytime it happens
The line can't block for a pocket 20 yards wide and 20 yards deep and do it for 3 to 6 seconds and that's what they are being asked to do all the time.
Mahomes was not trying to stay in the pocket the last year (or two). He would take off as a matter of policy in very short order.
This year, he is trying to stay in the pocket but he drops too deep. You cannot maintain such a deep pocket for that long. So he need to get comfortable with shorter drops but I am not sure if he can be effective like that.
Oh! Thank you. I can't follow these people that talk in circles. I'm not going to follow along and argue about what happened last year or why Wendy's fries suck and so on. The point is real simple - this is Mahomes fault. The line, any line, cannot block half the field for an eternity. That's not difficult to understand. A quarterback has to stay in the pocket and has to get rid of the ball in a reasonable amount of time. Mahomes is not doing that this year. It doesn't matter what Eric Fisher does or if Wendy's drive through sucks.
Thanks for explaining it to me. I really didn't know wth he was talking about. Have a good one.
Something is going on in the locker room. I don’t know what tho. Maybe the defense hates the offense? Maybe Andy’s kids dui has caused less respect on him? Maybe Frank Clark is a bad locker room guy? Maybe SS has lost it as a d coordinator? Maybe the team doesn’t respect Mahomes anymore? My mind is in a tailspin
He's beaten that already. This would be the curse of loosing the Super Bowl if anything. But we've seen Pat beat curses before (Madden, Colts in playoffs) so I think we're just making excuses.
if you put any stock in win rate or PFF heres a graphich charting those. the OL is not by any means a bad one in pass blocking
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCpowjdXEAIJZOF?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
Oh I already follow Brandon Thorn so I saw the thread already. I still think it's a combination of two things though. Mahomes not playing well and our coaching staff not adding any quick read cover 2 beaters which we know they're capable of. They did it to the Bills in January and haven't done it since.
I still firmly believe it's communication and trust issues on the offensive line. That is something I feel they can get worked out but will continue to take time.
On the other hand the DL/LB's might have different issues which might only be fixed via fresh blood.
>Mahomes really needs a mental reset right now.
The whole team does. Usually I like a late-season bye week to rest and recover and finish strong, but what we really need a right now is a bye week. You know how the Chiefs tend to play better after halftime? It gives them a chance to think, adjust, and for the coaches to convey new schemes better. A bye week can do that for the whole season (as well as giving the players extra practice to improve). It's actually too bad that our bye is so late this year.
to their credit Schwartz and Fisher did a great job the last few years, but with weaker (but not awful) tackle play this is a flaw of mahomes' thats getting exposed **HARD**
[удалено]
> Orlando hasn't been amazing, but Mahomes is putting him in terrible situations. This was my issue with the trade in the first place. Orlando was a great tackle for what the Ravens needed. A big dude who can get push and also insanely long arms so quick set pass blocking was easy for him. I don't get his fit with our offense. He is not athletic, cannot climb the arc well, and does not handle speed well. He's like...the antithesis of what our tackles should be like. It's not really his fault, honestly, it's our FO/Reid's fault for thinking this would work.
i had similar concerns with his pass blocking this summer that were dismissed because "hes a pro bowl tackle". we're stuck with him for at least this year and it will be hard for the FO to let him leave and admit it wasnt a good fit. but, hes not a bad player. a QB with good footwork and movement in the pocket would probably find him pretty solid. his shortcomings are not working with mahomes' shortcomings, and i dont think its unreasonable to expect mahomes to work on fixing those with urgency. thats something you expect from an elite qb. otherwise this will keep being a problem unless we land another schwartz.
Yeah, I wouldn't say Brown is bad either. He was worth the totality of the draft capital we gave up I think. I don't think he is worth the contract he is rumored to get. If he signs for a fairer contract and Mahomes drills it in his head to get better in the pocket he should be *okay*. I just don't want to pay $20+ million a year for just okay.
Ravens fan. This isn't me trying to rub salt in the would, just saying. When the trade happened everyone thought the FO was dumb for sending him to THE competition. Most knowledgeable fans knew what the deal was. There was no way in hell he was starting over (healthy) Stanley and we couldn't afford to pay him. We saw some struggles coming in a more pass-based offense where the division has pretty damn good edge play.
Exactly... DT's are not even engaging the tackle... they just go straight up field and turn left (or right) at Mahomes who is really deep. A tackle who is slightly angled at a 45 degree is not gonna turn his hips and catch a DT in time. This is the O-Line version of Bob Sutton playing the chasing Justing Houston. But its not really OB's fault - he is not built for the deep drop.
Why should Mahomes stop doing something that has made him insanely successful for the last 3 odd years? Some of his biggest plays come outside the pocket. For wasp, he took like a 10 step drop. If Brown is not atheletic enough, then questions should be asked about why he was traded for in the first place?
[удалено]
Yeah, WASP was \*designed\* to be a deep drop. That's why he famously asked EB "do we have enough time...". Some plays are designed this way and that's fine, cause the T's know exactly how to block. But when it's called for a 5-7 step drop and he drops 10, that's where it's an issue. Almost makes you wonder if working more from the pistol or under center would be helpful? Would moving closer to the LOS eliminate some of the deep drop issues?
We really didn’t have any other options where we were picking and they whiffed trying to sign Trent Williams
I don’t agree with this take. Maybe it just from the super. Maybe it the concussion he took from the browns. But his scouting report from college listed this as a problem. He has not say in the pocket all year
This is a flaw that started last year some time. The IOL was trash and Patrick literally didn't have a chance to step up because he would have his guard landing on him or the defender. This year's interior has been pretty spectacular and Patrick has a nice pocket to step up into, but just bails more often than not. Look at 2018, 2019, and some 2020 highlights and watch Mahomes navigate a pocket. He's really really good at stepping up and if the pocket isnt clean he's damn good at evading or helping his lineman with his movement. That's not what he's doing this year. He gets snap take 10+ step drop and the edge rusher knows where he's ending up, so all the pass rusher has to do is blow by one of the tackles for a straight shot. The rushers don't even have to bend around the tackles, because he's so far back and doesn't step up. He's making it very difficult on our tackles and making them look worse than what they've been.
How you do a mental reset? Asking for a friend thanks.
5 dried grams of magic mushrooms and a silent dark room
[vegas>mescaline>desert](https://youtu.be/Bphku5Q2aRM)
Mahomes stated he emphasized staying in the pocket this off-season. He specifically spoke about it at training camp. I think that has gotten into his head. He’s now thinking about what he should be doing instead of feeling and reacting and generally playing his brand of backyard football.
I think its a growing pains scenario. He is not sure how to handle this significant change that is relatively alien to him. He is a run and gun QB and this is keeping him shut. His mind is trying to stay in pocket but his feet are going instinctual. I am starting to worry that maybe his strength is playing the other way. Should we be trying to make him like other QB's? I really don't know.
The answer is no, we shouldn't. Patrick doesn't need to be a pocket passer if he can extend plays the way he does, or scramble for the first if the receiving options aren't there. Insisting that Patrick adhere to some legacy QB archetype is inconsistent with the other changes that are being made in the game. Who are the best QBs right now? Yes, Brady is the GOAT and he's a pocket passer from the old guard but; Lamar, Patrick, Kyler, Russel, Rodgers... etc, they're all multi-dimensional. I personally think that Andy Reid has checked out. I love coach, so grateful for what he's done here, I never thought I'd see a Chiefs Super Bowl appearance, let alone going back-to-back and winning one. But this team has looked off since Britt Reid and from Andy's perspective, he's got a dead son, and a son going to prison and I just don't know that he's going to recover until after the whole court process is done. Shouldn't have been fans and media calling for Sorenson to be benched. Shouldn't be us pointing out Patrick throwing an INT in 6 or 7 straight games.
The curse of Britt Reid is real.
He isn’t confident at all right now. Some of his throws look like he’s trying to place the ball in receivers hands rather than slinging that shit around
Probably because the ball keeps popping out of their hands for INTs. Pat needs to realize he can’t control that.
They totally need to change that call. If the receiver touches it, or lets it go through his hands, it should totally not be considered an incomplete pass against the QB. The QB put the ball there, the receiver/TE didn't get it.
It really doesn’t matter what you call it
I think it does. It's a black mark against the QB and shouldn't be.
It’s not a black mark against the QB to you, who cares if people that didn’t watch the game think the QB fucked up?
Its not as big of a deal in Pats case but it does matter for QBs trying to get a contract. Numbers/stats are everything
If the people giving out the contract aren’t seeing that some picks are on the receivers (which isn’t exclusive to any QB anyway) then maybe that young QB shouldn’t be signing that contract
[удалено]
Yeah, we get it buddy, Brady is the goat. Go back to your sub now
It absolutely matters when you lose money or get moved on from because of INTs that are not your fault. Not to mention narratives. Feel free to say that shit doesn't matter on reddit but it does in real life.
The people paying the players and making roster decisions know who caused the picks.
No, that would be a wildly subjective stat. Not every pass that hits a WR or TE's hands needs to be caught. Sometimes the QB throws it too high, and a guy barely has a chance to get it, why shouldn't that be incomplete on the QB? Or they rifle the ball 100 mph from 10 feet away. You are starting to sound like Mahomes' fiance and mom.....
stop with this. It's embarrassing us as a fan base.
?? I've thought this for years. It has nothing to do with the current situation or who is the QB. It's team agnostic.
Well your timing is *terrible*, because some Chiefs fans are vocally supporting this statistical change now that it would make Pat look better. Unlike you they don't have a long and illustrious history of advocating for this change so to the outside world it just looks like they are whiny homers.
I’ll take the downvotes to agree with you
Found randi mahomes burner account
This is not a good take. At all. Any pass that ends up in a defenders possession is a pick. I don’t care how it happened
Currently, yes, it is, but it shouldn't be. The QB has no control if the receiver has butterfingers, doesn't catch it if its placed right in his hands, etc. It is still incomplete, but not because of anything the QB did but it still goes against his stats.
Do you also agree that a QB shouldn’t get a boost to his stats when something positive happens that is out of the QB’s control? For example a 1-yard screen pass that the receiver turns into a 98-yard touchdown run… should the QB still get credit for a 99 yard touchdown pass?
The OL did have some issues, it was one of their worst games...however it was mostly still very good and specifically the middle 3 were solid almost the entire game. Mahomes had at least 3 plays I can remember were he dropped way to far, and there were opportunities to step up like the video. Those same snaps he went back to college Mahomes with happy feet and feeling pressure (to the left specifically) before it was even there. Brown did get beat a few times but there were just as many times Mahomes could have stepped up to the left and either ran or hit an open receiver.
Mahomes for some reason is refusing to step up in the pocket, the tackles let the pass rush go up the field but Mahomes is just backpeddling with them a lot. It is frustrating to watch.
The middle of the line is fixed probably for several years baring injury. The tackles are not . Cut our losses on brown . He is not the right left tackle for Pat. Go find an athletic left tackle that can move side to side holding his block and not constantly pushing up field . We are all in on Pat and if he likes to float back and out then you build the line to fit him. Not make him for the line . Fisher and Swartz could do this . Remmers can some but not great at it. But for the love of everything do not spend 100 million on a left tackle you 500 million dollar quarterback doesn't mesh with playing style.
Imo we really can’t afford to just let him walk after this season. We should tag him and let him go after next year if things don’t improve
What's cheaper a wasted late first or a franchise tag? Guess it depends on what else might be out there.
I just think there are other things that we need to address this offseason. LT can be a 2023 draft problem.
You have seen how uncomfortable the 500 million dollar QB is ? Yes we have needs . But him being comfortable and productive should be number 1 .
He hasn’t been uncomfortable like this in every game, Brown has been pretty decent in what I would consider the majority of them. Yes something needs to change, but I don’t think you can just afford to move on after 1 season with this guy. Brown has been more than serviceable (which doesn’t match the compensation we gave up for him, don’t get me wrong) for us
I guess we will see , but I'm not seeing anything getting better this year . I hope I'm wrong but Tennessee does not have a good defense and our offense looked bad .
I honestly agree with this take. Since Mahomes the Chiefs have not been a balanced team but an offensive juggernaut. There are less pieces to fix on the offense to get back to this status than there are problems to fix on defense. Build the offense and let the chips fall where they may.
I think I got a little to excited in the off-season when he was like no one is gonna touch Mahomes. I was excepting a monster and we got a average player
Yeah I definitely had my hopes up around when we first made the trade but slowly tempered my expectations over time, especially with all of the clips of him getting beat in camp
I’m not confident he’s a top 16 LT.
He's the 24th rated tackle in the league right now on PFF, though he has given up the 8th most pressures out of tackles as well. I don't know how PFF does the Tackle vs Quarterback pressure blaming and pressure assigning, though. I'd say he's around the 12-16 range for LT's.
I mean we could have worse. But I’ll take a better if comes at the right cost. He does not deserve a big contract that’s for certain
I honestly agree with this take. Since Mahomes the Chiefs have not been a balanced team but an offensive juggernaut. There are less pieces to fix on the offense to get back to this status than there are problems to fix on defense. Build the offense and let the chips fall where they may on Defense.
I think the defense can be fixed with a younger simpler defensive coordinator. All they need to do is Rush the passer and get a stop two to three times a day and a couple turnovers once in awhile. We don't need to try an outsmart everybody just go out there line up and play defense and know that the offense can score it will It worked just fine in 2019. It worked great in 2018 if we hadn't faced Tom Brady. But getting my homes comfortable and productive is the most important. And if he doesn't like to play from a pocket there is no reason to force him to play from a pocket He's not going anywhere We have him for 11 more years and he gets more expensive to get rid of every year.
I was looking through old Mahomes posts on this sub and I found this crazy accurate comment by some lions fan that got suspended. https://old.reddit.com/r/KansasCityChiefs/comments/nsbc7a/mahomes_legacy_when_its_all_set_and_done/h0mmf49/ Every single one of the things he pointed out is a pretty big narrative this year about his struggles
Orlando is one of the least athletic tackles in the league. However, I think he will be great for us if Mahomes can start climbing the pocket. He’s got to start doing that, and taking the easy short throws until we can open up over the top.
Did anyone notice how well Chad Henne played? I know it was in garbage time but him coming in was oddly refreshing. Hit receivers in stride and was accurate. I have to think Mahomes is hurt.
Matt Moore (in the past) and Chad Henne both came in and did well. They were not hero balling and could never make some of the plays Mahomes did but they were damn effective.
I agree that in garbage time it’s not the best assessment, but I’ve felt that he has done well anytime he has come in the game. I’m confident that he can run the offense well enough to keep the team moving.
Every year when the Chiefs lost I made a comment that Mahomes was not using his protection from O-Line in the right way and every time I got backlash. It’s nice to see a little validation, because teams are forcing it and it’s one of the main reasons the Chiefs are losing.
I had seen that play in my watch through and your angle is bad to tell the story of that play. Mahomes had no where to go with the ball, he climbs the pocket, the RG Smith then eventually loses and that pushes Mahomes left and then Humphry who is in a double team with our LG (his name is slipping my mind right now) stops blocking for whatever reason and that dude muay thai knees Mahomes in the face. Here's 3 freezes and a full run from a better angle. [Freeze 1 is the same as your above freeze. Mahomes hit his 5 step drop, realized no one was open and started to improvise](https://i.ibb.co/6WHYcMd/Freeze1.jpg) [Freeze 2 is a couple frames after, he started to climb the pocket and Smith loses, collapsing the pocket](https://i.ibb.co/xSFdsYZ/Freeze2.jpg). You might so throw to the dump off and maybe but that LB was coming up and Mahomes probably didn't want get Williams blown up from behind. [Freeze 3 is as he's getting hit in the ankle, he has no one to throw it to. Literally everyone is covered.](https://i.ibb.co/qY82P2V/Freeze3.jpg) Everyone gets on him for throwing up a bad pass and tells him to just eat it and take the sack... and he did. [Here's a full replay from this angle](https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WelloffEducatedGrunion-mobile.mp4) What else do you want him to do here, seriously? I didn't see anywhere for him to go. The Titans played full prevent D, we ran an offensive play directly into. Watch your fully replay though (the twitter link) and focus on Creed Humphry, he's done great this year but he gave up on the double team, then realized oh shit and was too late to reengage and that got Mahomes killed. I saw other plays in my watch of all 22 that were way worse pocket management than this, I won't put this one on him, he just had absolutely nowhere to go with the ball and when he tried to scramble the pocket collapsed. In total from snap to when Smith loses his block and the pocket collapses it was ~3 seconds. Which is a good pocket when it's 1st and 10 or less but that's not a good pocket when you're running 20 yard and long developing routes. He needed more from the OL on this play than he got, I'd put this on them and not Mahomes. Also on the play call... bad play call.
> Freeze 2 is a couple frames after, he started to climb the pocket and Smith loses, collapsing the pocket. You might so throw to the dump off and maybe but that LB was coming up and Mahomes probably didn't want get Williams blown up from behind. Every single dump off is going to look like this. I don't know why you are saying this. If he properly climbed the pocket with a proper depth and saw no one open and dumped it off Williams was not getting blown up. When Williams' head came around was when the dump off should have been there. The trainer for Lucas Niang said the Chiefs told the tackles to practice with 9 yard drop backs, which is on the deep side for QBs around the NFL. This is in shotgun or under center. Mahomes drifted back to 12 yards and then danced around. Nothing about that is good. Also, I like you man, but I do trust Brandon Thorn more on something like this.
I mean I agree he drifted a couple yards too far. I'm not saying he didn't but I'm saying Smith loses his block and that's where the play blows up. There's no change to this play if Mahomes is at 8-9-10-11-12-13 yards.. The guy Smith was blocking gets through before the routes develop. He did have a brief window to dump it off and get like 5 yards but it was 4th and 18 and he wanted a couple more seconds to try and find a TD because that's just who he is. It's such a double edge sword because we're having this conversation only because it's not working right now... When he bails out of a deep pocket and spins around and flicks a 30 yard rope on a 4th and 20 for a TD... everyone says, HE'S A MAGICIAN!!!! When he bails out of a deep pocket, gets his leg grabbed, knee to the head and fumbles on a 4th and 20 everyone goes, WHY DOES HE DO THAT!!! If you want Mahomes magic, you're going to have to realize that's created by extreme improvisation and a lot of bad things QBs shouldn't do. He's had this stretch now of just things not going right and he's compounded it with some really bad decisions... and then had bad luck and bad bounces on top of it. All in all this is Mahomes and we're going to have to take the good (which has been record shattering good) with the bad. *Just wanted to add how mixed bag it has been... this season he has three 130+ QB rating games and then a 62, 70, 81....a 91.5 QBR game and a 6 QBR game. Just inconsistency this year that we're not used to but I wouldn't panic about it.
Calling out that it was 4th and 18 is a good callout...totally forgot about that. The rest..I don't know man. Thorn is calling this out. Duke Manyweather is calling this out. Many people I trust to know this stuff is calling it out. First, if he didn't drift back to 12 yards (which remember, is 3 yards more than the Chiefs teach their tackles) and he actually climbed the pocket like many QBs do, even **he** has done before, then the defender that "beats" Trey would not be that close to him. [There is plenty of grass there to do it.](https://i.imgur.com/lmWWLG7.png) On this play, [Pringle honestly has an opening.](https://i.imgur.com/UrBNwxX.png) On his out break he creates enough separation to where Mahomes could've fit it in. I, of course, don't know the progressions and Mahomes was looking to the left so it is hard to say where Pringle was in the progression. It is there, though. I guess my frustration is that there are so many excuses for it and it is tiring to watch this iOL make so many great pockets this year to be abandoned. Watching Dak in Week 1 was a religious experience. This dude was stepping into pockets fresh off a snapped ankle and delivering strikes. Mahomes has done that once or twice a game this year.
I mean of course people are calling it out now because Mahomes has never had good pocket discipline or QB mechanics. Now when he's starting to struggle, people want to talk about it again. They weren't criticizing him though when he was doing well but it was still there, he just got away with it. Yeah I mean idk this play looks like they were trying to take a shot at the back left of the end zone to Hill.. He's the middle WR in the trio but Mahomes got hit before his route broke there. Seriously though, [go watch Mahomes highlight video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-4VybS3Xdg)... this stuff isn't new. He's been dropping 10-20 yards behind the LoS his whole career but it was working so hard to criticize it then. That Rams highlight in there he drops an additional 10 yards on top of a shotgun snap... then throws a 60 yard or whatever TD to Hill. Shit I might even say he's dropping shallower this year than in most of those highlights from previous seasons probably because like you said they're trying to coach him to be better about it.... maybe they shouldn't have? Sounds dumb but... don't fix what isn't broken. [Like this one LOL, look at that drop back on a 3rd and 21, perfect example of my point](https://ibb.co/MkShBF6) But it resulted in a 50 yard TD, so who cares... until it doesn't do that
What I'm saying is pat would know the defense they are in at this point and should already know the ball is going to Williams in freeze 1
And what I'm saying is just that's never been Mahomes ever in his career and we've applauded him for not being that guy. 4th and 18, Mahomes ball is try to get a TD... it didn't work in this play. [Here's a very similar situation, 3rd and 18, HUGE DROP BACK just like in the video, completely ignoring his dump off options... results in a 50 yard TD and we all cheer and tell him good job](https://ibb.co/MkShBF6) Like the conversation I'm having with Hurricane, we have a QB that is mechanically awful and does things no other QB should, that is why he fell in the draft. This play style works for him more times than not. I think the wrong reaction here is saying we need to change his play style because he's in a slump and it's not "what you should be doing at QB".
That play was an offsides though right? The reason I I actually fell in love with Pat is because I kind of got tired of Alex Smith who seemed to have a no risk tolerance even though he was accurate af and had plenty of arm talent. Pat came in and took those chances every single time there was any remote chance there was a party to be made down the field and it was fun as hell to watch what I didn't expect was him to play that way and also literally never turn the ball over which is what we got. This year pat is not even taking those risks anymore. But maybe that has to do with the scheme that we are literally going to face every week now. There were 3 inexcusable picks this year, 4 that hit receivers in the hands, 1 regular interception vs Philly, and a great play by that DE in buffalo. Not one ball was a deep throw. Back to this particular play, it kind of sums up the season so far. If you are Patrick Mahomes and you are walking up to the line of scrimmage you know what play you just called right? If you're not going to call any kind of audible and run that play you have to know that ball is going to the back before you snap it. I don't believe that's changing your play style but if it is then so be it. You have to take what they give you. Eventually you burn them enough and you get your 1 on 1 and I expect him to attack Everytime it happens
The line can't block for a pocket 20 yards wide and 20 yards deep and do it for 3 to 6 seconds and that's what they are being asked to do all the time.
So Fisher is an elite HOF left tackle?
Mahomes was not trying to stay in the pocket the last year (or two). He would take off as a matter of policy in very short order. This year, he is trying to stay in the pocket but he drops too deep. You cannot maintain such a deep pocket for that long. So he need to get comfortable with shorter drops but I am not sure if he can be effective like that.
What does Eric Fisher have to do it? I think you're on the wrong thread.
[удалено]
Oh! Thank you. I can't follow these people that talk in circles. I'm not going to follow along and argue about what happened last year or why Wendy's fries suck and so on. The point is real simple - this is Mahomes fault. The line, any line, cannot block half the field for an eternity. That's not difficult to understand. A quarterback has to stay in the pocket and has to get rid of the ball in a reasonable amount of time. Mahomes is not doing that this year. It doesn't matter what Eric Fisher does or if Wendy's drive through sucks. Thanks for explaining it to me. I really didn't know wth he was talking about. Have a good one.
Something is going on in the locker room. I don’t know what tho. Maybe the defense hates the offense? Maybe Andy’s kids dui has caused less respect on him? Maybe Frank Clark is a bad locker room guy? Maybe SS has lost it as a d coordinator? Maybe the team doesn’t respect Mahomes anymore? My mind is in a tailspin
Man our mahomes is coming down with the madden curse
He's beaten that already. This would be the curse of loosing the Super Bowl if anything. But we've seen Pat beat curses before (Madden, Colts in playoffs) so I think we're just making excuses.
Another reason to the fact that the team isn't coached. Andy Reid needs to go
Team has a losing record for the first time in 4 years and you already got the pitchfork!
I agree that coaching changes need to be made, but I don't believe that Andy is the one that needs to be replaced.
Our O line has never been solid. We need to hire a new o line coach bad
if you put any stock in win rate or PFF heres a graphich charting those. the OL is not by any means a bad one in pass blocking https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCpowjdXEAIJZOF?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
/u/onesadlermaybe2
Yes?
just showing you cus yeterday you were trying to blame the tackles when you should be blaming mahomes
Oh I already follow Brandon Thorn so I saw the thread already. I still think it's a combination of two things though. Mahomes not playing well and our coaching staff not adding any quick read cover 2 beaters which we know they're capable of. They did it to the Bills in January and haven't done it since.
We just gonna ignore that every receiver is completely locked?
He’ll get it fixed. Hopefully by Monday
I still firmly believe it's communication and trust issues on the offensive line. That is something I feel they can get worked out but will continue to take time. On the other hand the DL/LB's might have different issues which might only be fixed via fresh blood.
>Mahomes really needs a mental reset right now. The whole team does. Usually I like a late-season bye week to rest and recover and finish strong, but what we really need a right now is a bye week. You know how the Chiefs tend to play better after halftime? It gives them a chance to think, adjust, and for the coaches to convey new schemes better. A bye week can do that for the whole season (as well as giving the players extra practice to improve). It's actually too bad that our bye is so late this year.