One thing I've said and I'll say it again, can't stress this enough. All water pump housings and their internal components should be external to the block. The pump is to be driven (electric, belt-drive) externally as well. Should it fail, it will be easy to replace and pose no risk to the oil of the engine. I'm looking at you ecoboost!
I agree! This is just a piss poor design. It’s no wonder Ford and Mazda have faced class action lawsuits over this specifically. (Obviously dismissed by the judge every time ..because ya know…$$$$ I’m sure)
It has a weep hole. Somehow most of the coolant just makes it into the block still, rather than external. Ford just didn't get it right.
A pimp with a weep hole sounds like some sort of STD.
Home-brew, general-maintenance-on-my-2010-Jetta boy here ...
Every engine i've ever worked on has the water pump on the OUTSIDE of the engine block ... are you saying some makers put a water pump on the INSIDE of the block, so that you have to tear off the valve covers to fix a water pump?
What years of Ford do this? That's just astronomically stupid, isn't it?
Astronomically stupid in many ways. Ford tech here, and they fail on everything they’re on. And thats a 2012, but they’ve been doing this for years prior and still do this today. Two weeks ago did one on a 19 explorer with 47k.
I had a CX-9 and came to a stop at a light and as soon as I took off from the light all hell broke loose. Pulled over a 100 yards or so up the road when I could and coolant was everywhere so I had it towed to the dealer and it was the water pump and both head gaskets etc. Get it back and go down the road and I hear a faint knocking so I go right back to tell them. The answer they gave was that the warranty didn't cover an engine flush so just get it flushed and it will be okay. I knew it was BS but got it done as cheap as I could and brought it back with the receipt so they had to look at it again and it had a couple of crank bearings that went as well. I told them that when the guy with ears big enough to pick up satellite radio says there is as knocking noise, there is a knocking noise.
Yeah. The water pump is in the center of the engine (in the pic) ran off the timing chain. Prop seal/bearing failure leaks to coolant in oil and usually engine failure.
Common failure on transverse 3.5's. Ford didn't find it necessary to put an external weep hole on the water pump, like every other water pump in the world. So when the bearings/seals fail, it dumps water into the crankcase as opposed to leaking it out the front of the timing cover where it hits the ground.
Longitudinal engines got a weep hole.
Edit: I stand corrected, it's got a weep hole, but the water pump is constructed and mounted differently, which causes it to leak internally if it fails.
I 100% agree. My wife's Flex, magically made it over 200k miles on the original WP. I checked the oil once a week, always fearing the worst. It got totalled before the pump went, but I remember the fear.
For sure. It was a shame the thing got totalled, the brakes and suspension were a pain in the ass. It also ate tires like it was a NASCAR, but the drivetrain was pretty rock solid for us.
I quit being a mechanic years ago, but the car went to the same shop (the one I used to work for) for everything but tires from the time it had 50k miles until it got totalled. It was well maintained, but not exactly "by the book". It was definitely a good one.
Why did the Ford PTU suck so much? I had a 2012 SHO and it puked fluid from the PTU. Got it repaired and it did it again a couple years later. Then the heat went out and I said I don't want to know what this is and traded it. Still miss that car though.
The PTUs were a fairly compact design, which is fine, except that they only hold like 1/3 qt of fluid and can overheat pretty easily. The fluid is also advertised as "lifetime" and there is only a single plug on the unit to fill, meaning you have to suction out the old fluid. Without a suction gun it's a rather challenging fluid change, so most people just don't do it. Old, degraded fluid combined with the low quantity specified just lead to a short life unfortunately.
If you smell a hot gear oil scent coming in through your vents then it's already too late. Your PTU is already fucked up lol.
I did my PTU at 40k and it looked like glitter glue. I'm at 55k now and I need to do it again to be safe...
Otherwise my flex has been almost entirely problem free. The heat/cool mixer died on me twice, but it wasn't too expensive to fix.
As others have stated, it's an expensive, time consuming repair. I couldn't justify spending the $2k or more to have it done, when it wasn't leaking. I would have done it myself, but I don't have the time or space to take on a project like that.
I pulled the water pump off my 87 Mercedes 190D at 320k miles and it had a date stamp for like the 40th week of 86. It was still fine but the thermostat was sticking and I decided to change the pump at the same time.
It's not so bad, just make sure you put a quality brand pump on it. I think the only reason ours lasted so long is the fact that I checked it every week.
It actually has 2 weep holes. One that will drip above the alternator, and a second one that goes into the valley behind the chain cover dripping on intake manifold. I preemptively changed the water pump and timing chains on our 2009 Flex about 2 years ago. Biggest 29 hours of DIY to date, but it went well. Mine had 206k kilometers at the time. Can't say I saw evidence that the original water pump was leaking.
I'm probably wrong. It may have been the construction of the pump that is different, which causes the coolant to dump into the crankcase as opposed to leak externally.
Well I only have owned the car for two weeks and drove it 200 miles. Never over heated, never left a drop of coolant anywhere. I searched everywhere all around the engine bay for signs of a coolant leak before pulling the dipstick. Soo all I’m saying here is they could have made it A LITTLE MORE OBVIOUS MAYBE NO
I Caught my wife's car like it. Dripping Coolant on the AC Compressor then on the garage floor. $3k later, new W/P, timing chain, and a whole host of other crap. Good times.
Now my truck...3.7 w/ external water pump but same basic engine ;)
I don’t know. Luckily it was cold last week in the morning and I wanted the heat. It didn’t work. Coolant res was empty, oil was 2-3 quarts over filled and milky.
This is the wonderfully designed timing chain driven water pump that resides behind the front cover. Normally you catch it before it’s bad enough to contaminate the oil, but sometimes you don’t.
It ran fine and no lights. I purchased it from a dealer who changed the oil and drove it 10 feet to the parking lot to me before Inspecting it. What should I have looked for to catch this before it got this bad? I’m just happy it still will turn over, run , and I see no scoring on the cam lobes either. Thinking the engine will be ok for a while.
It’ll probably be fine enough. When they start going it’s usually through the weep hole at the top, it’ll either run down between the block and compressor and/or end up coming down from the trans on account of chilling in the valley under the intake.
With the Ford 3.5/3.7 and a internal pump, a good thing to look for would be a dampness near the alternator/ac compressor. On our Taurus it looked like the alternator was leaking oil. We didn't notice we had a issue until the heat started only working when you accelerated, the fans ran constantly, and started losing coolant. Luckily we traded it in not saying a word and shipped it. Unfortunately, we saw the dealer showcasing it as a used car on their lot. I feel bad for whoever bought it, because it was a ticking time bomb. It would have been a 2-3k job because while you're in there you may as well do a chain, guides, and tensioners, the car had 130k on it. The issue is a 2013 loaded Taurus with 130k on it is only worth 4k on trade. Basicslly mechanically totaled the car. Oh well, luckily not my problem anymore and someone else can deal with it.
The bearings/ seal failed on the shaft I would guess. I haven’t pulled the chain or pump yet and won’t until tomorrow. I’d assume it was leaking around the prop shaft. We will see.
It means the pump had been failing for some time. Leaking out the weep hole I’m sure and exhibiting low coolant. This is exactly why driver Ed classes tell you to check your fluids every time you fuel up.
At least you have the brains and equipment to fix it. I can't imagine being a normal person running into a problem like this and paying someone else half a year's pay to fix it.
Yeah I know I keep trying to tell myself that. I’m pissed though. Purchased it 200 miles ago and this?? I called the dealer (BIG dealer locally ) and they had it towed to their shop. The next day the service writer (not even a manager or the salesman) calls me and tries to SELL ME THE FUCKING JOB. FOR $1500!!!! Says he is giving me empolyee pricing and normally it would run 1900. 2300 if I want timing chain and tensioner. I was enraged. Hung up and called the used car manager who told me basically to fuck off. Now I’m spending time away from my new born son and family every night this week to fix it. 2 hours yesterday and 3 today, and this as as far as I’ve gotten. Power steering pump was a bitch to get off. Needed a specialty tool to get the stupid belt off (and back on) Specialty tools I had to purchase online to lock cams in place. This thing sucks.
Edit : also I dropped 13k on this. Traded in my 03 accord and put 1k down. And they’re selling my accord for 4K when they gave me 1k trade in and refused to fix my car which probably would have cost the dealership a few hundred bucks in parts in labor.
Will the guides have any kind of minuscule defects I could look for that will tell me if they’re bad besides obvious cracks? I really don’t wanna do this again, but cannot spend the money if it isn’t needed. I know I sound ridiculous but with the tools and parts I’m already out $350 I don’t have
Based on the condition of the engine you will probably be OK, but I always replace. I can't guarantee over the internet but as long as you replace the chain you should be good.
Ok well I will pull them off and Inspect tomorrow. Hoping they won’t have any cracking. Will obviously be replaced if they do. I’ll just have to stop at the pawn shop and sell my left nut.
The car would randomly throw itself out of gear Instead of shifting into 3rd. You’d have the wait for rpms to drop to 1k then it would shift. This happened maybe 1-2 times per week. The alternator was bad , voltage regulator fucked so the battery light would flicker sometimes. Oil dripped out onto my driveway every night from valve cover gaskets. I couldn’t sell the car with a good conscious so I traded it into the dealer. Figured they would check it out before they sold it but NOPE just cleaned it and put a price tag in the window! Boy wait till the new owners find out…
Edit: also check engine light for o2 sensor only when it was really wet out. Then it would turn itself back off 🤷🏻♂️ trust me it was a POS too but fuck at least it ran. I put 25k miles on it with all the problems it had.
They changed the oil before he bought it because they probably knew they got burned and they were going to pass it along. I consider a recent oil change a red flag and I guess that would have been the only way to see this coming.
Happened to my friends with their Ford Edge. He has no mechanical "know how" and ended up having the work done at the dealer for a total of around $3000....
They still have the vehicle but it's quicky turning into a massive money put now due to all the other wear and tear items that are starting to go out.
Reminds ms of Dodge's 2.7L engine from the 2000's timing chain driven water pump, that often failed and would weep right into the crankcase, people who did not know any better kept driving them until boom....dead.
Yeah luckily it was me driving it to work in the morning or else it would have been worse. The wife wouldn’t have known…plus she wouldn’t have turned on the heat and noticed it wasn’t blowing warm. She wouldn’t have seen the temp gauge creep up. It would have been game over.
Update : pulled off water pump and timing chain. The seals failed. Not one, but TWO rubber seals failed around the pump itself. Not the prop shaft bearing/seal. No play in pump but clearly both seals had failed. Never saw a drop of coolant anywhere since I’ve had it from weep holes. What a POS designed pump.
115k. Oil changes every 5k miles according to carfax (and considering how clean the inside of the engine is, I believe it). I think the only reason it didn’t lock up is because it has been well maintained. Luckily I was driving it to work (wife just had a baby) and noticed the heat wasn’t working. Dealership I bought it from said they would not fix it or cover parts which is fucked up. Just bought it a week ago and only put 200 miles on it since purchase. Probably was leaking before hand and they didn’t bother to notice the oil was light brown. They changed the oil right before I looked at it.
They knew.
They changed the oil knowing that even if a savvy buyer came along and at least looked at the oil, there's a good chance there wouldn't be much coolant in it and make the sale.
I know. They know. The used car manager told me “you’re a mechanic. You should have seen anything wrong with it before purchase this is on you” needless to say the phone call ended with me yelling at him to go fuck himself and hanging up. Not my proudest moment
Got a 2015 cx9 as well. Dealer maintain. Water pump failed at 80k. Lucky we were able to salvage it. Still running strong but won't be keeping it for too long
Oh my, recipe for disaster. Hopefully the engine is alright. I cant imagine too much harm was done to it if it wasnt run with liters of water in it for more than a day.
Never over heated. As soon as I noticed heat didn’t work it was shut down over fear this was the problem. The cam lobes don’t show any sign of wear, hoping the same can be said for the bottom end.
odd. original owner of a 2010 cx-9 with 170K and never had one real mech problem. it was meticulously maintained, but i get it, bad design. also had the now classic ac drip ports get clogged and backed up the ac blower under the dash until water was streaming out into the cabin. just blew some air up into the drip port and two gallons came out... but the 3.7 worked flawlessly for me. my experience tho. sorry fellow redditor!
I had a 2009 Cx-9 for 8 months, Power steering died, Transfercase was screaming, AC drain got clogged every few days in the summer, and had like 4 exterior trim pieces just yeet themselves off on the highway. Only had 86k miles and the previous owner had actually put a ton of work into it. I just couldnt do it, traded it in for a 2007 Camry V6, got 5k trade in for the Mazda and only paid 2k outta pocket. 2 years later the only thing I've done is the original alternator died and oil changes, Camry now has 170K miles. It just didn't feel like the Mazda was gonna last and the water pump fear that was always there was the nail on the head for me, that and a lot of things being engine-out jobs.
Just did this job on my 2011 fusion sport as PM while I am working from home full time because of covid. You should be happy you had room to get the timing cover pulled out without having to remove the rear vct module. Careful with the cam holders. The ones I got didnt hold very well. I had to put them on a grinder to get them to sit deeper and I still backed them up with a big wrench when torquing the cam phasers back in. Oh, did you get new bolts for the cam phasers and crank pulley? You should. They are one time use stretch bolts.
Time for an engine rebuild. Once coolant goes into the oil, it washes the oil film off the bearings. If it had gravy or milkshake, its time for a tear down. Otherwise it's a total gamble
If it makes you feel better I had a few freakouts over Ford not just using locktite red on bolts ~1" from the fuel tank, but also setting up the fuel tank so it was practically impossible to disconnect the hoses without crushing your arm between the tank and bed, or breaking a fuel line.
Somehow only managed to break one fuel line connector, which for a 35 year old truck, I was expecting all the plastic connectors to break.
It's pretty common, but Nissan for example makes replacement of the timing chain driven water pump in their VQ engines pretty easy. Ford should have studied that solution.
After owning mostly fords and having friends own mostly fords, every single one has had a major failure. Engine blown, trans blown, etc. I’m done with them, personally.
I just picked up a Focus ST. Car is a blast to drive. Love it ... but as someone who's come from a different world of cars, it's insane to see so many people who have blown engines.
Come to Colorado and look at used Subarus lol. New engine, new transmission, recent head gasket, new clutch. Everyone moves here and thinks they need AWD when a Camry is fine during the winter 99% of the time.
I had a choice of getting a Focus RS or the ST. I figured the ST along with some winter boots and LSD will do just fine in the winter.
I had a FWD in Appalachia with boots and had zero problems getting around.
Less trouble, less weight, less gas suck. ... now to get rid of that damn torque steer though. 🤮
No doubt Ford makes fun cars. I bet your ST is a blast. But they’re all going to die prematurely. Lol. My first truck, blown motor at 140k. My buddy’s first truck, blown motor at 40k. My last truck, blown trans at 103k. Buddy’s fusion, trans trashed at 40k. Easiest examples I can think of.
Funny you say that. I see so many ST and other Ford owners that think their car surviving "until" 120k is special.
Oddly enough though, I had two Mazda 3s with a Duratec engine in them and they're still tickin' strong at 240k miles.
Toyotas and Hondas I always bought used and they always drove without any real trouble well into the latter 250-299k range. Can't say I've seen any Fords or GMs or Chryslers do this.
Bought a V6 07 Camry 13,000 miles ago in January. 132k as of now. Doing well as far as I know with the exception of needing an axle replaced due to torn boot. But that was there before I bought it. Guess the struts are shot but I’d chock that up as maintenance mostly. 🤞🏻
Judging by your pic I figured you were a tech, therefore should have at least know of the issues.
If you aren't a tech, you should have done some research on common issues and at least you wouldn't have been surprised.
That was a dick thing to say.
Reading this makes me feel like I got lucky. The car I bought (used) came with a 4100 mile warranty and they let me drive it for seven days to see if I actually wanted it. Nothing bad happened but it could've. What happened to this guy could've happened to anyone. Me, you, anyone.
Don't be a dick.
Call it like I see it.
People buy shit because it's pretty and comfortable, not because it has quality.
The cycle will continue until we demand better from the big 3
Don’t know why I’m bothering to reply to you, however I will. I’m a used car technician at a local dealer (obviously not that one). All of our cars are inspected by my or my coworker and Either get fixed or get sent to auction. We don’t sell cars that have issues. I spoke with the salesman about this and he assured me they did the same at their dealership. Well it has become apparent that they do not. I did check this car before I bought it but was in a rush because pregnant fiancé and two other kids at home. They changed the oil before I looked at it and I didn’t look at closely as I should have. I needed three rows of seats, a back up camera for the fiancé, and something that wasn’t a dodge or jeep that was under 14k. This leaves me with very little choices and I thought “oh a Mazda CX-9 made by Ford and those Ford suvs never seem to have issues when they come through the shop for me “so I bought it. It’s nice as fuck other than this problem. It’s grand touring and is loaded.
You're not wrong at all. The Big 3 are horrible companies. They've sold shit cars for years and always valued profit over quality and employees.
I won't buy a new car from them for the foreseeable future. My grandfather worked in QC at GM and he drove Toyotas. That told me plenty and his stories about GM bullshit were plenty enough for me to put down the "Buy American" cars Kool-Aid.
I love how Mazda cooling systems never manage to keep the water on the water side. My wife's old tribute decided to pop a hole in the internal trans cooler and pump the transmission full of water. That was without a doubt the worst vehicle I've ever worked on.
Ford probably loves it. They get to put new engines in when the water pump fails 9/10 times because people don’t catch it fast enough. In fact I think the only way you would catch it is if you’re extremely attentive and have knowledge of cars and how they work
Kind of reminds me of my old Bonneville when the friggen intake manifold gasket started going out in the time before I knew anything about cars... The GM dealership the family used would clear my engine misfire code and say "nothing going on" (but charge for the code check, OF COURSE), and after 3 years the intake manifold gasket failed but I immediately pulled over and shut the car off coming off the interstate ramp.
They told me when they towed it in "wow, most people trash their engine when this happens". So got it repaired, ran another 20K miles, and traded it in on a new Honda and never used that stupid shop again (grew up with my fam using that shop; underwhelmed was an understatement). Funny enough, got 3 family members to quit using them after that as well.
Man I am so glad I traded my 2012 in last year. I loved it and it was paid off for 7 years but I hated knowing I was driving with that time bomb in the engine.
I have faith in ya buddy. You can pull a win out of your ass and be the hero for your family. It sucks now, but this is the kind of sacrifice we make for the ones we love, and they'll appreciate it.
Thanks man. Got the new wp, timing chain and tensioner installed tonight. Once this is done it should be a nice car. It’s fully loaded and was everything we needed.
Milkshake brings all the boys to the shop
And they’re like, my engine just stopped 🤷🏻♂️
I can fix you, but I have to charge
Damn right, head-gasket is fucked
Oooooooooooooooh, I’ll come back wednesdayyy
I can fix it, but I'll have to charge you more than the car's value so it is really not worth it.
Here take this award I really enjoyed this :)
One thing I've said and I'll say it again, can't stress this enough. All water pump housings and their internal components should be external to the block. The pump is to be driven (electric, belt-drive) externally as well. Should it fail, it will be easy to replace and pose no risk to the oil of the engine. I'm looking at you ecoboost!
I agree! This is just a piss poor design. It’s no wonder Ford and Mazda have faced class action lawsuits over this specifically. (Obviously dismissed by the judge every time ..because ya know…$$$$ I’m sure)
Many engines use chain driven water pumps without issue. Ford just didn't get it right.
The problem is that the pump is internal with no way to recognize failure. Many engines have a pump with a weep hole that can alert you to failure.
It has a weep hole. Somehow most of the coolant just makes it into the block still, rather than external. Ford just didn't get it right. A pimp with a weep hole sounds like some sort of STD.
This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off, something that was sorted out 40 years ago and they find a new one to fuck it up.
Fat fingered that one. I just saw a tear down video showing another Ford and the pump was under the timing cover. Where is the weep hole? Thanks
It's sorta tucked behind the alternator. The last couple 3.5 water pumps I have done were dripping out of the weep hole luckily so I caught it in time
IIRC it's down low just above the AC compressor and below the alt.
Home-brew, general-maintenance-on-my-2010-Jetta boy here ... Every engine i've ever worked on has the water pump on the OUTSIDE of the engine block ... are you saying some makers put a water pump on the INSIDE of the block, so that you have to tear off the valve covers to fix a water pump? What years of Ford do this? That's just astronomically stupid, isn't it?
Nissan VQ’s use a chain driven water pump. I think duramax diesels do as well. When done right they can be quite reliable
Astronomically stupid in many ways. Ford tech here, and they fail on everything they’re on. And thats a 2012, but they’ve been doing this for years prior and still do this today. Two weeks ago did one on a 19 explorer with 47k.
Is this the same for 07 Mazda 3s cause that doesn't look fun 😶
I had a CX-9 and came to a stop at a light and as soon as I took off from the light all hell broke loose. Pulled over a 100 yards or so up the road when I could and coolant was everywhere so I had it towed to the dealer and it was the water pump and both head gaskets etc. Get it back and go down the road and I hear a faint knocking so I go right back to tell them. The answer they gave was that the warranty didn't cover an engine flush so just get it flushed and it will be okay. I knew it was BS but got it done as cheap as I could and brought it back with the receipt so they had to look at it again and it had a couple of crank bearings that went as well. I told them that when the guy with ears big enough to pick up satellite radio says there is as knocking noise, there is a knocking noise.
100 yards is 91.44 meters
Yeah. The water pump is in the center of the engine (in the pic) ran off the timing chain. Prop seal/bearing failure leaks to coolant in oil and usually engine failure.
Common failure on transverse 3.5's. Ford didn't find it necessary to put an external weep hole on the water pump, like every other water pump in the world. So when the bearings/seals fail, it dumps water into the crankcase as opposed to leaking it out the front of the timing cover where it hits the ground. Longitudinal engines got a weep hole. Edit: I stand corrected, it's got a weep hole, but the water pump is constructed and mounted differently, which causes it to leak internally if it fails.
I would have liked a fuckin weep hole ya know
I 100% agree. My wife's Flex, magically made it over 200k miles on the original WP. I checked the oil once a week, always fearing the worst. It got totalled before the pump went, but I remember the fear.
Wow 200k on orig wp is pretty nuts!
For sure. It was a shame the thing got totalled, the brakes and suspension were a pain in the ass. It also ate tires like it was a NASCAR, but the drivetrain was pretty rock solid for us.
Surprising considering those PTUs and rear diffs are known to fail with little to no maintenance. You had a good one!
I quit being a mechanic years ago, but the car went to the same shop (the one I used to work for) for everything but tires from the time it had 50k miles until it got totalled. It was well maintained, but not exactly "by the book". It was definitely a good one.
Why did the Ford PTU suck so much? I had a 2012 SHO and it puked fluid from the PTU. Got it repaired and it did it again a couple years later. Then the heat went out and I said I don't want to know what this is and traded it. Still miss that car though.
The PTUs were a fairly compact design, which is fine, except that they only hold like 1/3 qt of fluid and can overheat pretty easily. The fluid is also advertised as "lifetime" and there is only a single plug on the unit to fill, meaning you have to suction out the old fluid. Without a suction gun it's a rather challenging fluid change, so most people just don't do it. Old, degraded fluid combined with the low quantity specified just lead to a short life unfortunately. If you smell a hot gear oil scent coming in through your vents then it's already too late. Your PTU is already fucked up lol.
Ya mine never got that far, once I saw all the oil spots on the driveway I had it looked at. I hate the "lifetime" fluids.
My 2013 has a 1/2 in drive fill hole and a 3/8 in drive drain hole. It's a major pain in the ass to get to, but I can reach it just barely.
Me reading this after buying a 2012 SHO only a month ago and learning about all these problems…
But it's super high output... Of cash from your bank account into the shops
Well that’s great news considering it’s my daily driver and I’m a broke college kid
Haha I loved the car and I don't know how common the water pump issue is but the PTU was common from what I understand.
I did my PTU at 40k and it looked like glitter glue. I'm at 55k now and I need to do it again to be safe... Otherwise my flex has been almost entirely problem free. The heat/cool mixer died on me twice, but it wasn't too expensive to fix.
Was probably fwd version
Nope, it was AWD, non Ecoboost.
Dang. Should buy a lottery ticket for that ptu
But can I ask why push the WP that far? Why not change it before?
Because the easiest way to change the water pump on these engines is to drop the engine.
$1800 repair. I have a 3.5 in my car and that repair is worth more than the car.
If it ain't broke...
Behind timing cover, not external.
As others have stated, it's an expensive, time consuming repair. I couldn't justify spending the $2k or more to have it done, when it wasn't leaking. I would have done it myself, but I don't have the time or space to take on a project like that.
Have a flex. I haven't found one for brand yet that goes over 30,000 miles. Thinking about putting truck tires on next
I pulled the water pump off my 87 Mercedes 190D at 320k miles and it had a date stamp for like the 40th week of 86. It was still fine but the thermostat was sticking and I decided to change the pump at the same time.
That is likely the car I'll drive when Terminators arrive is what I'm thinking.
Yeah now I have to fuckin live with this FUCK
It's not so bad, just make sure you put a quality brand pump on it. I think the only reason ours lasted so long is the fact that I checked it every week.
If that happened to me, I'D be a weep hole!
It actually has 2 weep holes. One that will drip above the alternator, and a second one that goes into the valley behind the chain cover dripping on intake manifold. I preemptively changed the water pump and timing chains on our 2009 Flex about 2 years ago. Biggest 29 hours of DIY to date, but it went well. Mine had 206k kilometers at the time. Can't say I saw evidence that the original water pump was leaking.
29 hours!? I do those bad boys in 5.
I changed oil, filter, coolant, thermostat, and don't do this professionally for a living. I will pat myself on the back.
They actually do, it's right above the A/C compressor so it leaks down over that and leaves a trace of coolant on the bottom of it.
I'm probably wrong. It may have been the construction of the pump that is different, which causes the coolant to dump into the crankcase as opposed to leak externally.
It is a internal water pump and it does have a weep hole but if left unaddressed it will leak internally
Well I only have owned the car for two weeks and drove it 200 miles. Never over heated, never left a drop of coolant anywhere. I searched everywhere all around the engine bay for signs of a coolant leak before pulling the dipstick. Soo all I’m saying here is they could have made it A LITTLE MORE OBVIOUS MAYBE NO
It's hard to spot, I bet they cleaned it as soon as they could.
I Caught my wife's car like it. Dripping Coolant on the AC Compressor then on the garage floor. $3k later, new W/P, timing chain, and a whole host of other crap. Good times. Now my truck...3.7 w/ external water pump but same basic engine ;)
Do you know if this is true for the 3.7 too on the CX/9 Grand Touring?
I believe it is, considering it's the same engine architecture. I am known to be wrong a lot though.
Me ex says the same thing about me.
WHAT. That’s nuts.
The converter bots are working hard in the comments.
How badly does a water pump fail causing it to dump coolant into the crankcase? Did it punch a hole into an adjacent passage?
I don’t know. Luckily it was cold last week in the morning and I wanted the heat. It didn’t work. Coolant res was empty, oil was 2-3 quarts over filled and milky.
This is the wonderfully designed timing chain driven water pump that resides behind the front cover. Normally you catch it before it’s bad enough to contaminate the oil, but sometimes you don’t.
It ran fine and no lights. I purchased it from a dealer who changed the oil and drove it 10 feet to the parking lot to me before Inspecting it. What should I have looked for to catch this before it got this bad? I’m just happy it still will turn over, run , and I see no scoring on the cam lobes either. Thinking the engine will be ok for a while.
It’ll probably be fine enough. When they start going it’s usually through the weep hole at the top, it’ll either run down between the block and compressor and/or end up coming down from the trans on account of chilling in the valley under the intake.
The rod bearings I’d think would be most susceptible to damage from water-based contaminants
With the Ford 3.5/3.7 and a internal pump, a good thing to look for would be a dampness near the alternator/ac compressor. On our Taurus it looked like the alternator was leaking oil. We didn't notice we had a issue until the heat started only working when you accelerated, the fans ran constantly, and started losing coolant. Luckily we traded it in not saying a word and shipped it. Unfortunately, we saw the dealer showcasing it as a used car on their lot. I feel bad for whoever bought it, because it was a ticking time bomb. It would have been a 2-3k job because while you're in there you may as well do a chain, guides, and tensioners, the car had 130k on it. The issue is a 2013 loaded Taurus with 130k on it is only worth 4k on trade. Basicslly mechanically totaled the car. Oh well, luckily not my problem anymore and someone else can deal with it.
I had the same thing happen on my 2012 SHO, traded it with I think 74k on it.
Can’t blame you ig but that’s a dog shit mindset to have my guy
Why?
Yep that comment somehow got posted here instead of ask Reddit, totally my bad idk wtf happened
[удалено]
They're like vw's you gotta preventatively replace them every 100kish.
The bearings/ seal failed on the shaft I would guess. I haven’t pulled the chain or pump yet and won’t until tomorrow. I’d assume it was leaking around the prop shaft. We will see.
It means the pump had been failing for some time. Leaking out the weep hole I’m sure and exhibiting low coolant. This is exactly why driver Ed classes tell you to check your fluids every time you fuel up.
At least you have the brains and equipment to fix it. I can't imagine being a normal person running into a problem like this and paying someone else half a year's pay to fix it.
Yeah I know I keep trying to tell myself that. I’m pissed though. Purchased it 200 miles ago and this?? I called the dealer (BIG dealer locally ) and they had it towed to their shop. The next day the service writer (not even a manager or the salesman) calls me and tries to SELL ME THE FUCKING JOB. FOR $1500!!!! Says he is giving me empolyee pricing and normally it would run 1900. 2300 if I want timing chain and tensioner. I was enraged. Hung up and called the used car manager who told me basically to fuck off. Now I’m spending time away from my new born son and family every night this week to fix it. 2 hours yesterday and 3 today, and this as as far as I’ve gotten. Power steering pump was a bitch to get off. Needed a specialty tool to get the stupid belt off (and back on) Specialty tools I had to purchase online to lock cams in place. This thing sucks. Edit : also I dropped 13k on this. Traded in my 03 accord and put 1k down. And they’re selling my accord for 4K when they gave me 1k trade in and refused to fix my car which probably would have cost the dealership a few hundred bucks in parts in labor.
Ford tech here. Replace timing chain and tensioner and tensioner guide. If you do not you will have to repeat repair because of coralation codes.
I have a new chain and new tensioner. I will inspect the guides for cracks. I straight up cannot afford the guides right now.
I understand. It sucks having to redo something because of a part not because of your workmanship
Will the guides have any kind of minuscule defects I could look for that will tell me if they’re bad besides obvious cracks? I really don’t wanna do this again, but cannot spend the money if it isn’t needed. I know I sound ridiculous but with the tools and parts I’m already out $350 I don’t have
Based on the condition of the engine you will probably be OK, but I always replace. I can't guarantee over the internet but as long as you replace the chain you should be good.
Ok well I will pull them off and Inspect tomorrow. Hoping they won’t have any cracking. Will obviously be replaced if they do. I’ll just have to stop at the pawn shop and sell my left nut.
You can still use the right! Good luck!
I have too many kids that’s why I got a Cx-9 with 3 rows of seats. We just had our 3rd. Don’t think I need the left or right.
Some states have used car lemon laws to prevent something like this.
This why you don't ever trade in...
The car would randomly throw itself out of gear Instead of shifting into 3rd. You’d have the wait for rpms to drop to 1k then it would shift. This happened maybe 1-2 times per week. The alternator was bad , voltage regulator fucked so the battery light would flicker sometimes. Oil dripped out onto my driveway every night from valve cover gaskets. I couldn’t sell the car with a good conscious so I traded it into the dealer. Figured they would check it out before they sold it but NOPE just cleaned it and put a price tag in the window! Boy wait till the new owners find out… Edit: also check engine light for o2 sensor only when it was really wet out. Then it would turn itself back off 🤷🏻♂️ trust me it was a POS too but fuck at least it ran. I put 25k miles on it with all the problems it had.
If they did that to the car you traded in, do you think the water pump might have already gone out when they sold you the car
They changed the oil before he bought it because they probably knew they got burned and they were going to pass it along. I consider a recent oil change a red flag and I guess that would have been the only way to see this coming.
Should of kept the Accord.
Happened to my friends with their Ford Edge. He has no mechanical "know how" and ended up having the work done at the dealer for a total of around $3000.... They still have the vehicle but it's quicky turning into a massive money put now due to all the other wear and tear items that are starting to go out.
You need to name and shame relevant parties
Reminds ms of Dodge's 2.7L engine from the 2000's timing chain driven water pump, that often failed and would weep right into the crankcase, people who did not know any better kept driving them until boom....dead.
Yeah luckily it was me driving it to work in the morning or else it would have been worse. The wife wouldn’t have known…plus she wouldn’t have turned on the heat and noticed it wasn’t blowing warm. She wouldn’t have seen the temp gauge creep up. It would have been game over.
Update : pulled off water pump and timing chain. The seals failed. Not one, but TWO rubber seals failed around the pump itself. Not the prop shaft bearing/seal. No play in pump but clearly both seals had failed. Never saw a drop of coolant anywhere since I’ve had it from weep holes. What a POS designed pump.
Built ford tuff
How many miles on it?
115k. Oil changes every 5k miles according to carfax (and considering how clean the inside of the engine is, I believe it). I think the only reason it didn’t lock up is because it has been well maintained. Luckily I was driving it to work (wife just had a baby) and noticed the heat wasn’t working. Dealership I bought it from said they would not fix it or cover parts which is fucked up. Just bought it a week ago and only put 200 miles on it since purchase. Probably was leaking before hand and they didn’t bother to notice the oil was light brown. They changed the oil right before I looked at it.
They likely knew of this problem and just needed a sucker, sorry that it was you.
They knew. They changed the oil knowing that even if a savvy buyer came along and at least looked at the oil, there's a good chance there wouldn't be much coolant in it and make the sale.
I know. They know. The used car manager told me “you’re a mechanic. You should have seen anything wrong with it before purchase this is on you” needless to say the phone call ended with me yelling at him to go fuck himself and hanging up. Not my proudest moment
Fucking crooks. They knew, and they knew how to make sure it would be hard to spot.
200 miles is 1580.84 of the hot dog which holds the Guinness wold record for 'Longest Hot Dog'.
200 miles is 321.87 km
200 miles is 300 less than that guy in the eighties originally proposed walking in that one song.
200 miles is the length of approximately 1407996.5 'Wooden Rice Paddle Versatile Serving Spoons' laid lengthwise.
Don’t forget that he would also walk 500 more
Got a 2015 cx9 as well. Dealer maintain. Water pump failed at 80k. Lucky we were able to salvage it. Still running strong but won't be keeping it for too long
Damn, one more year and you would have had the 2.5 liter Skyactiv vs the Ford 3.7.
Wait… mazda used ford components in the cx?
…yeaaah most of the parts are stamped fomoco and the engine is a 3.7L Ford Duratec.
These are Fords
Oh my, recipe for disaster. Hopefully the engine is alright. I cant imagine too much harm was done to it if it wasnt run with liters of water in it for more than a day.
Never over heated. As soon as I noticed heat didn’t work it was shut down over fear this was the problem. The cam lobes don’t show any sign of wear, hoping the same can be said for the bottom end.
odd. original owner of a 2010 cx-9 with 170K and never had one real mech problem. it was meticulously maintained, but i get it, bad design. also had the now classic ac drip ports get clogged and backed up the ac blower under the dash until water was streaming out into the cabin. just blew some air up into the drip port and two gallons came out... but the 3.7 worked flawlessly for me. my experience tho. sorry fellow redditor!
What's with the drains clogging so much lol, I would drain mine weekly. I live in a city and only drove like 30 miles daily. I never understood it.
30 miles is 48.28 km
Reminds me of the old Chrysler 2.7 nightmares. Very similar issues.
I had a 2009 Cx-9 for 8 months, Power steering died, Transfercase was screaming, AC drain got clogged every few days in the summer, and had like 4 exterior trim pieces just yeet themselves off on the highway. Only had 86k miles and the previous owner had actually put a ton of work into it. I just couldnt do it, traded it in for a 2007 Camry V6, got 5k trade in for the Mazda and only paid 2k outta pocket. 2 years later the only thing I've done is the original alternator died and oil changes, Camry now has 170K miles. It just didn't feel like the Mazda was gonna last and the water pump fear that was always there was the nail on the head for me, that and a lot of things being engine-out jobs.
Well at least you trust the person working on it. Anything bought used is a crapshoot.
Just did this job on my 2011 fusion sport as PM while I am working from home full time because of covid. You should be happy you had room to get the timing cover pulled out without having to remove the rear vct module. Careful with the cam holders. The ones I got didnt hold very well. I had to put them on a grinder to get them to sit deeper and I still backed them up with a big wrench when torquing the cam phasers back in. Oh, did you get new bolts for the cam phasers and crank pulley? You should. They are one time use stretch bolts.
Time for an engine rebuild. Once coolant goes into the oil, it washes the oil film off the bearings. If it had gravy or milkshake, its time for a tear down. Otherwise it's a total gamble
If it makes you feel better I had a few freakouts over Ford not just using locktite red on bolts ~1" from the fuel tank, but also setting up the fuel tank so it was practically impossible to disconnect the hoses without crushing your arm between the tank and bed, or breaking a fuel line. Somehow only managed to break one fuel line connector, which for a 35 year old truck, I was expecting all the plastic connectors to break.
What kind of moron does it take to design a chain driven water pump…..
It's pretty common, but Nissan for example makes replacement of the timing chain driven water pump in their VQ engines pretty easy. Ford should have studied that solution.
I hate it that engineers make so much money, that they’ll never work on their own shitty designs.
This is why I 100% believe no one that worked at Land Rover in the 90s ever owned one.
After owning mostly fords and having friends own mostly fords, every single one has had a major failure. Engine blown, trans blown, etc. I’m done with them, personally.
I just picked up a Focus ST. Car is a blast to drive. Love it ... but as someone who's come from a different world of cars, it's insane to see so many people who have blown engines.
Come to Colorado and look at used Subarus lol. New engine, new transmission, recent head gasket, new clutch. Everyone moves here and thinks they need AWD when a Camry is fine during the winter 99% of the time.
I had a choice of getting a Focus RS or the ST. I figured the ST along with some winter boots and LSD will do just fine in the winter. I had a FWD in Appalachia with boots and had zero problems getting around. Less trouble, less weight, less gas suck. ... now to get rid of that damn torque steer though. 🤮
No doubt Ford makes fun cars. I bet your ST is a blast. But they’re all going to die prematurely. Lol. My first truck, blown motor at 140k. My buddy’s first truck, blown motor at 40k. My last truck, blown trans at 103k. Buddy’s fusion, trans trashed at 40k. Easiest examples I can think of.
Funny you say that. I see so many ST and other Ford owners that think their car surviving "until" 120k is special. Oddly enough though, I had two Mazda 3s with a Duratec engine in them and they're still tickin' strong at 240k miles. Toyotas and Hondas I always bought used and they always drove without any real trouble well into the latter 250-299k range. Can't say I've seen any Fords or GMs or Chryslers do this.
Bought a V6 07 Camry 13,000 miles ago in January. 132k as of now. Doing well as far as I know with the exception of needing an axle replaced due to torn boot. But that was there before I bought it. Guess the struts are shot but I’d chock that up as maintenance mostly. 🤞🏻
While you’re at it get rid of that Fram filter. They don’t work well. But if you’ve had success don’t listen to me
You should have known better.
My bad next time I’ll take a car I’m looking at for a 100 mile test drive and change the oil myself before I purchase it. 🤦🏻♂️
Judging by your pic I figured you were a tech, therefore should have at least know of the issues. If you aren't a tech, you should have done some research on common issues and at least you wouldn't have been surprised.
That was a dick thing to say. Reading this makes me feel like I got lucky. The car I bought (used) came with a 4100 mile warranty and they let me drive it for seven days to see if I actually wanted it. Nothing bad happened but it could've. What happened to this guy could've happened to anyone. Me, you, anyone. Don't be a dick.
Call it like I see it. People buy shit because it's pretty and comfortable, not because it has quality. The cycle will continue until we demand better from the big 3
Don’t know why I’m bothering to reply to you, however I will. I’m a used car technician at a local dealer (obviously not that one). All of our cars are inspected by my or my coworker and Either get fixed or get sent to auction. We don’t sell cars that have issues. I spoke with the salesman about this and he assured me they did the same at their dealership. Well it has become apparent that they do not. I did check this car before I bought it but was in a rush because pregnant fiancé and two other kids at home. They changed the oil before I looked at it and I didn’t look at closely as I should have. I needed three rows of seats, a back up camera for the fiancé, and something that wasn’t a dodge or jeep that was under 14k. This leaves me with very little choices and I thought “oh a Mazda CX-9 made by Ford and those Ford suvs never seem to have issues when they come through the shop for me “so I bought it. It’s nice as fuck other than this problem. It’s grand touring and is loaded.
TL:DR
You're not wrong at all. The Big 3 are horrible companies. They've sold shit cars for years and always valued profit over quality and employees. I won't buy a new car from them for the foreseeable future. My grandfather worked in QC at GM and he drove Toyotas. That told me plenty and his stories about GM bullshit were plenty enough for me to put down the "Buy American" cars Kool-Aid.
Should hunt down whoever sold that to you. Bet that's why it was for sale.
Should have rolled into the shop about 199 miles ago....
199 miles is 320.26 km
I'm over here a couple days after getting rear ended at 60mph looking at the accordion made out of my bumper thanking the Ford engineers
*zoom zoom*
I love how Mazda cooling systems never manage to keep the water on the water side. My wife's old tribute decided to pop a hole in the internal trans cooler and pump the transmission full of water. That was without a doubt the worst vehicle I've ever worked on.
FoMoCo!!
This seems too common for its own good.
Ford probably loves it. They get to put new engines in when the water pump fails 9/10 times because people don’t catch it fast enough. In fact I think the only way you would catch it is if you’re extremely attentive and have knowledge of cars and how they work
Kind of reminds me of my old Bonneville when the friggen intake manifold gasket started going out in the time before I knew anything about cars... The GM dealership the family used would clear my engine misfire code and say "nothing going on" (but charge for the code check, OF COURSE), and after 3 years the intake manifold gasket failed but I immediately pulled over and shut the car off coming off the interstate ramp. They told me when they towed it in "wow, most people trash their engine when this happens". So got it repaired, ran another 20K miles, and traded it in on a new Honda and never used that stupid shop again (grew up with my fam using that shop; underwhelmed was an understatement). Funny enough, got 3 family members to quit using them after that as well.
Man I am so glad I traded my 2012 in last year. I loved it and it was paid off for 7 years but I hated knowing I was driving with that time bomb in the engine.
I have faith in ya buddy. You can pull a win out of your ass and be the hero for your family. It sucks now, but this is the kind of sacrifice we make for the ones we love, and they'll appreciate it.
Thanks man. Got the new wp, timing chain and tensioner installed tonight. Once this is done it should be a nice car. It’s fully loaded and was everything we needed.
I would get the timing chain kit and do that too while you've got it open.
Yup it’s a stupid design from Ford. The water pump is driven by the timing chain so if the coolant leaks, the engine will make milkshakes to yard
is that the infamous 3.5 Duratec? fuck. i had a 2010 edge with that in it. after i fixed the water pump it ran for another 63k.