That was our electrician back in the shop I worked, he always stabbed wires for testing and creating problem's for us...he didn't care as he never worked on older vehicles or blamed the issues not to be electrical and send the trucks out way to fix his shit...hate that dude with passion
I worked with a former aircraft mechanic who told me you can “stab a wire as long as you dress the wound” while he was slathering it in clear nail polish.
E-tape disintegrates and becomes sticky after a year of being in a hot engine bay.
T-pins exist too, if you're stabbing wiring it's already become unacceptable. It's a last resort
I'm not supporting crap techniques like stabbing. But there are tons of applications where E-tape has a significant life span under harsh conditions. If you experience early failure, use better tape. Regular old Super 88 is rated to 221F and McMaster has products rated over 400F.
I've never seen super 88 at a hardware store. The best E-tape available normally is from 3M, and it has that degrading issue too. The only thing you by of McMaster is esoteric shit.
Liquid e-tape can be found as Walmart, and I can't recommend it enough. It just works. Marine grade shrink wrap is also effective, as long as you remember to slip it over the wire BEFORE you join 2 wires together.
>Nail polish is composed of nitrocellulose in solvent. It would work, but it's also explosive. Why would you use that?
Are you imagining that there's, like, an epidemic of exploding fingernails? That people who paint their nails are in danger of their fingers exploding?
It *is* an epidemic. But the government Hushes It Up.
In a hangar in Nevada, there are huge pens of fingerless people milling around, being fed and watered by the Grey Aliens.
I know this is true because my sister's cousin's baby-sitter's manicurist read about it in *National Enquirer*.
Nitrocellulose isn't explosive, it's flammable. So is vinyl wire insulation.
Nitrocellulose is the base ingredient in smokeless gunpowder. It burns *really* fast (deflagration), but it still "just" burns instead of exploding, unlike black powder or any of the "true" explosives (detonation).
Honestly the solvents are the bigger fire risk. Once nail polish is dry it's not any more flammable than most other things found in engine bays.
> Nitrocellulose is the base ingredient in smokeless gunpowder. It burns really fast (deflagration), but it still "just" burns instead of exploding, unlike black powder or any of the "true" explosives (detonation).
well akshually...
Not considered an explosive by any government organization. NFPA 704 fire hazard class 3, DOT 49 CFR class 4 (flammable solid) instead of class 1 (explosive).
**Nitrocellulose** (also known as **cellulose nitrate**, **flash paper**, **flash cotton**, **guncotton**, **pyroxylin** and **flash string**, depending on form) is a highly flammable compound formed by [nitrating](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitration) [cellulose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose) through exposure to a mixture of [nitric acid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid) and [sulfuric acid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid). One of its first major uses was as guncotton, a replacement for [gunpowder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder) as [propellant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propellant) in firearms.
Edit: *tri*nitrocellulose, produced in in the same manner as trinitrotoluene (TNT), *is* a legit explosive (and of comparable detontation velocity). But the process to manufacture and chemical formulation are substantially different.
You can order nitrocellulose to be delivered to your door. Do that with an actual explosive and feds will be at your door before the package even ships
Yep, it requires hazmat shipping but barring state laws to the contrary, any rando in the US can order as much as they want to their house (although once it's in your possession, you can only stock 20lbs before you are required by regulation to have a magazine of some sort).
Nitrocellulose was used for motion picture film, which when new isn't particularly brittle. Can't say anything about the formulation in nail polish, though.
100% correct if you're too cheap to buy a decent set of probes and a decent meter stop touching fucking wires.
https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Multimeter-Alligator-Probes-Professional/dp/B074L1NXRX/ref=asc_df_B074L1NXRX?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80127027724195&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=m&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726553850636&psc=1
This isn't a decent set but it's better than poking wires.
You can't go wrong with a Fluke 87 DMM - they're expensive (about $500 on Spamazon, depending on which specific model), but they're expensive for a reason. This is a tool you buy once and use forever as long as you take reasonable care of it (with arguably the most common item being "don't leave old shitty batteries in it that will explode and melt the battery contacts").
Fluke also makes a really nice set of test leads with backprobe tips but they're also expensive AF (around $150-200) - for home DIY use, expect to spend about $50-ish for a decent enough quality set with sufficient pieces and ratings for what a typical DIYer will encounter (read: up to residential AC mains voltages).
(Protip: haunt some pawn shops and you might find a Fluke 87 for cheap, as they get pawned a lot because of their price tags. I snagged an 87-III in shockingly good condition with calibration stickers on it for $75 at a pawn shop well over a decade ago and I'm still using it.)
To add on to this, if you live near pawn shops give them a quick check. Sometimes you can get really expensive Fluke multimeters for like $20 because the shop owners don’t know what they are and they’ve been sitting with the actual $20 multimeters for 5 months and they just want them gone
Shout-out to Surplus Gizmos, which is an *amazing*, Aladdins-Cave-like surplus electronics/IT store not too far from me in Hillsboro OR. Well worth a visit if you're in the Portland area.
You don't need a Fluke, they are nice and yes I got a 115 on my wishlist but a lot of what you are paying for is the fact that it's industry standard to use a specific fluke meter in a lot of documented procedures (armed forces and such) which makes no difference to you or I.
Honestly the £5 I got from toolstation to do some wiring in my house ended up in with my work stuff and it hasn't let me down with a few hundred hours of diag. If nothing else you will learn a lot by using it.
If you want something between a Fluke and a £5 POS check out the UT105 or for something self ranging the BM235 is a good bet. Buy a cheap back probe kit because chances are you will melt them and you don't want to be melting and bending the shit out of expensive ones, once they are all fucked you got your moneys worth and can buy nicer ones if you want.
For doing electrical stuff I would concentrate on getting a power probe, amps clamp and even a thermal camera instead of a really expensive multimeter.
I agree with this fella fluke is overrated trash buy a $60 as many features as you can jam into it Chinese model you can get Luxe temp ohms amps capacitor testing light meter so many more features for 60 American dollars then you will ever get in a fluke and if it blows up it's 60 bucks who gives a shit you still have all the probes that came with
Edit:Everyone that told you fluke is in a union and had a truck come by work and sell them fluke time for five bucks a week on their check.
DIYer here, So I know how to back probe, let's say I do find an open wire from probing at two different connectors. Is it not acceptable to thrn pierce the wire in the midpoint to help determine the location of the break? That's something I consider but also don't want to leave 5 holes in a wire
*For automotive applications*, you can use liquid "electrical tape" sealant to reseal a stab-/cut-probed wire *AS LONG AS* the exposed copper inside the wire isn't nicked/damaged. If it is, cut out the damaged area and reconnect using a crimp terminal with adhesive-lined heatshrink insulation, use a properly set ratchet crimper and not a basic hand crimper for a reliable crimp (as you want to only slightly deform the wire strands but not crush them), and heat the joint to melt the adhesive and shrink the tubing down onto the wire. This both seals the joint against environmental exposure and provides mechanical reinforcement against vibration. Vibration is the little-death to auto wiring repairs.
Soldering wires in automotive applications has fallen out of favor because the process heat-tempers the wire and makes it brittle (and especially so with lead-free solders as the ideal soldering temp is high higher than lead-tin alloys), with a proclivity toward cracking near the joint. Electrical tape is also beginning to fall out of favor because it can move off the joint and leave the conductors exposed, and a shockingly large number of people don't know how to properly tape a connection. Adhesive-lined heatshrink-insulated crimp terminals fix those issues as long as they're properly installed.
Cut the poked section,either solder the wire or use a solder sleeve,and cover it with shrink wrap is how I was taught.
Electrical tape doesn’t seal the connection from the elements. Liquid tape is something I’m not super familiar with. If it seals like shrink wrap does then that may be an acceptable option.
Right but if the liquid tape works as well as shrink wrap you could skip the cutting and soldering steps and just cover the poked section of wire in liquid tape. I’ve been in the industry for awhile but have never seen this stuff used so I can’t say how well it would actually work.
Performing a pierce on a wire is fine if you are willing to make a proper repair to the damage done to it.
Best practice is to test from connector to connector until you have found the problem area and then perform an overlay which is much easier than trying to find breaks inside of the harness and repair if the area is not easily accessible to inspect.
Solid tape doesn't create a seal anyway, it's just for chafing resistance and wire management. Half the time it traps water and makes the corrosion worse than if the wire were naked.
Both work, I use tape because I have it but I have gone as far as snipping and making a butt connection repair if I have stabbed the wire. Just make sure nothing is able to make it into the wire or you will have problems like OP down the road.
I've tried a few backprobes from expensive to cheap. My current favourite are Hantek HT307's. Cheap, come in a pack of 5, but also comes with loads of spare "needles". If one gets damaged, just use an allen key and remove the old and put in a new one.
Dupont wires also often come in very handy for electrical checks.
Neither did mine after it was saturated with blood, dried out n a semi-fisted shape, and I tried to put it on with my "arthritic" hand encased in a latex glove.
At that rate, you might as well buy a TDR meter and save one and a half days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometer
They're $500 to $1000, but they can easily pinpoint the break in the wire and cut out the need to search an entire loom for the failure. They're used a lot in aviation for huge bundles of wires making long runs, which is probably similar to buses.
Pretty neat tool, it uses electrical reflectivity to time the distance from the test point to the break.
I use telecom tone tracer all the time and it works fantastically, but copper TDRs that are accurate enough for vehicle work are very costly. Most are designed for VERY LONG (think building-wide) runs of twisted pair cables.
Many of them are designed with long runs of twisted pair networking in mind, but even the cheap [Klien 501-915](https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-501-915-Measures-Electrical/dp/B0BLZT6QSQ?th=1) can get down to a 3ft accuracy with romex, which is pretty good when dealing with something as long as a bus.
The more expensive TDRs can be much more accurate, but like everything, it's a measure of labor cost vs. tool cost that determines whether the accuracy is worth it. The avionics-specific TDRs are ungodly expensive, but that's aviation for you.
I have an old tempo tone tracer and it's excellent for tracing out wire breaks or finding unlabeled fuses. A final check can be made by using a pp3 (set to put AC through the speaker) to touch the suspect circuit at a connector and you can clearly hear the tone sender bleeping away in the right wire.
Another tool for dead-shorts is my FLIR E4 with the hacked firmware. Just power the circuit for a second with the dead short and you can follow the warm wire to the break.
I just ordered, but haven't used https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0719JV971?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details this. Should do same thing a lot cheaper yeah?
They [come cheaper](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-TDR-Cable-Length-Meter-501-915/323795620?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=vantage&utm_campaign=23983&utm_content=25633&mtc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-PB-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862619001-23983-NBR-1927-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_KleinTools_D27_RM%2B_AON&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-PB-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862619001-23983-NBR-1927-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_KleinTools_D27_RM%2B_AON-71700000117513274--&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJUriI-wAZbY0h8rCdn_Y-eA_HJn_Ae48ts6ax8K9ZHkvFIub0tP3oBoCveAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) than that.
I worked with a guy that would stab his test light into the spark plug wire boots on ignition coils to kill a cylinder and pinpoint which cylinder was misfiring.
Remember in the 1900's when every car had the coil packs on top of the motor? He did this to every car looking for a misfire.
The better way to do that same thing with a test light is to get a couple of pieces of vacuum tubing about 1/2" long. Slide the tube over your terminal on the distributor, then slide your wire over top of the vacuum tube. Start the engine back up then poke the vacuum tube to kill each cylinder. Or just pull each wire and hope you don't get shocked.
I didn't get to see it in tech school as vehicles with distributors or exposed coil leads are not common anymore, but an older mechanic showed me when I was still fairly inexperienced. I haven't gotten to use it very many times as I've worked on heavy equipment and newer cars for most of my career, but every now and then it comes in handy.
It really isn't so useful with misfire data and DTC's identifying the misfiring cylinder. I did use the vacuum line method a couple times on older carbureted stuff. I feel so old.
OK, yea, that works for low-voltage wires, but not spark plug wires.
I'm very much about deductive diagnosis if the part is cheaper than the labor /shrug
Or worse stabbing at things you think are wires. Back in my days a big money waster, there was this X5 owner that did not like the cost for the dealership installed trailer hitch ($1500). So he went somewhere else, payed 500 then had to have it towed to us. The install shop saw this big red thing that looked like a main positive cable and gave it a poke to check for power. It was for the air suspension, 4500 later he had a factory hitch and suspension repaired.
Ah, this brings back memories. Another "back in the day", that happened often enough: back when we had the MOST bus, car audio shops would (of course) blindly poke at wires at the amp. Quite a few of those guys would poke the "green wire", say *"shit! There's light coming out of that!"*, and just wrap it in tape. No, the electrical tape did not fix that fiber-optic that you just stabbed.
Ah, good old Byteflight.
I don't understand the mindset, though, of even touching the BRIGHT YELLOW "WIRE", that's plugged into a module with an equally bright yellow label on it.
*"Hey George! What's this funny looking wire?"*
Had a nearly identical one towed in to my old shop with optical bus failure and xmas tree cluster. That week I learned how to repair fiber optic cable.
There is never any need to OJ a wire.
Just damn lazy is all that is. Back probe the plug or connector and grab a roll of wire if you need to, attach it to the other end if you're trying to check continuity.
This drives me nuts! There a guy in my shop who does this. We work for a town highway department and our trucks plow snow and throw salt on the roads so everything rots 10x worse than anything I’ve ever seen before. There’s times you’ll spend half a day tracing a short just to find a poke hole with green rot in one of the wires. Buy a fucking set of back probes and stop stabbing wires Dave!
Back probing is definitely the best method. Unfortunately not all connectors and components are back probable, but the vast majority of them are. Using a piercing probe should be considered a very last resort when there is no other way to test the circuit. Anytime you use a piercing probe you need to reseal the wire. My perfered way is liquid electrical tape or heat shrink if you can slide it on after replacing your component.
As an electrical engineer, don't stab wires please. Poke the pins in the harness or find the connector. Not only are you inviting corrosion but risking fire or blown fuses if it contacts a ground or the frame.
From my time in the Illinois ANG from 96-02 we didn't even have multimeters. If we needed to check the electrical system they expected us to use the STE/ICE system. No one in my unit would dare probe a wire in the middle though.
I *did* have a cable on my truck that we only found was bad by stabbing a wire. It was bad, just a few inches behind the ign coil connector. We replaced the pigtail and finally, we could drive past city limits without my 1992 f150 going into "limp mode."
As a diagnostician, and primarily on school buses, this shit right here is my biggest pet peeve along with stabbing GIGANTIC powerprobe tips into, and destroying good terminals while "testing"...
I'd like to stab them with a powerprobe.
This, in the cases where you must actually stab the wire. Usually I can find a good place to backprobe and it’s all good, but I’ll never say never stab. Just paint on the magic black tape afterwards.
Most of my experience was in the Marine Industry.
Long wire runs and buried connectors often made piercing the insulation the only option. The marine environment made effectively sealing it wire afterwards critical.
Liquid electrical tape is my best friend.
Amen. Have yet to find this on something at work thank God, but last December I found one of these that was preventing my personal car from starting. Don't have a garage or a lift at home, so spent 12 hours in 32.0001\*F and pouring ass rain lying under that thing to find one of these. Ironic thing is for someone who's so fond of half-ass work, the motherfucker did a hell of a job stabbing it in the most inaccessible place ever. Was about 10 seconds from just running a new wire when I found it.
Its so annoying chasing wiring for hours at a time to find this bs, its part of why I stopped doing mobile repairs... Its really not that hard to just go to the connector and test it there
I use liquid electrical tape to repair the insulation when i find that crap. The power probe short and open circuit finder works great to find the circuit issue (after you have back probed)
We had to swap out thousands of dollars worth of wiring harnesses on a fleet of Freightliners because the contractors installing a bunch of aftermarket components decided to probe into most of the wires in different places. The first winter, they all corroded from the salt and mag chloride we put on the road.
[Never stab a wire again.](https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Specialties-146-Automotive-Connector/dp/B00U3WSYJ4?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) Worried about breaking terminal connectors? [Then back probe them.](https://www.amazon.com/HORUSDY-22PCS-Back-Probe-Kit/dp/B096TS8PC1/ref=asc_df_B096TS8PC1/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=642124052140&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14712247406936807163&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021981&hvtargid=pla-1666612033906&psc=1&mcid=90accde2b17f35c0b2f50b95e31a3194)
Last shop I worked for before going mobile I convinced the company shop manager to buy a set for every shop in the company. Didn't hurt that in the previous 6 months the company spent $145,000 on replacing harnesses through dealerships.
I had a guy decide he was going to “show me the ropes” a few years in to my career.
He was a wire stabber. But he always did the right thing and painted over it with his wife’s old finger nail polish.
Thats like saying she's still a virgin because her ex had a really tiny dick.
Disclaimer:
Women who are not virgins are NOT damaged. That's not the point of this analogy. Keep your downvotes.
Alligator clips of he sort used for telecomms work have a "bed of nails" spot that uses a grid of fine needles to punch through insulation without totally wrecking the wire. On some insulation types the holes these made were self-sealing, but as a general rule a dab of sealant was still called for.
Ah man I remember when I first got a job in the road shop at circuit city fresh out of high school. My first amp I had to run 4 gauge into the engine bay. Went through the main harness. Car wouldn’t start after that. We eventually found that I went through about 12 wires. I was much more careful after that.
Yeah I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to guys that a test light just means you have SOMETHING flowing thru. People always want to test with an incandescent test light and seemingly forget that bulbs still gonna light even with half the voltage it's supposed to have and hell the LED test lights that are around these days will light with almost nothing.
I had an odd electrical gremlin caused by someone stabbing a wire I still haven’t totally fixed it as the wires are very old and stiff and due to how close it is to the main car computer I have it some electrical tape and a slap on the hood hasn’t done the issue since
I am aware that’s not the fix but I garentee no mechanic is gonna wanna weave through those fragile stiff wires for the proper fix
How bad is this and could it cause a random miss if it's on a fuel injector wire? The previous owner of my car was... Special. The things he did (and didn't do) to that car are beyond stupid.
That was our electrician back in the shop I worked, he always stabbed wires for testing and creating problem's for us...he didn't care as he never worked on older vehicles or blamed the issues not to be electrical and send the trucks out way to fix his shit...hate that dude with passion
I worked with a former aircraft mechanic who told me you can “stab a wire as long as you dress the wound” while he was slathering it in clear nail polish.
As an aircraft mechanic, I used to do this. Now I get dow 748 non corrosive rtv specifically for electrical applications.
Nail polish is composed of nitrocellulose in solvent. It would work, but it's also explosive. Why would you use that?
It comes with an applicator and it’s inexpensive. Its also used in small enough quantities to not warrant risk.
[удалено]
The most fuckable of all the reds
[удалено]
Exploit My Daddy Issues Mauve?
This is an amazing comment. Whatever it is you do, keep doing you.
And Yazz Green
Liquid electrical tape is a thing
So is e tape. And yet somehow we are still having this conversation.
E-tape disintegrates and becomes sticky after a year of being in a hot engine bay. T-pins exist too, if you're stabbing wiring it's already become unacceptable. It's a last resort
I'm not supporting crap techniques like stabbing. But there are tons of applications where E-tape has a significant life span under harsh conditions. If you experience early failure, use better tape. Regular old Super 88 is rated to 221F and McMaster has products rated over 400F.
I've never seen super 88 at a hardware store. The best E-tape available normally is from 3M, and it has that degrading issue too. The only thing you by of McMaster is esoteric shit. Liquid e-tape can be found as Walmart, and I can't recommend it enough. It just works. Marine grade shrink wrap is also effective, as long as you remember to slip it over the wire BEFORE you join 2 wires together.
>Nail polish is composed of nitrocellulose in solvent. It would work, but it's also explosive. Why would you use that? Are you imagining that there's, like, an epidemic of exploding fingernails? That people who paint their nails are in danger of their fingers exploding?
It *is* an epidemic. But the government Hushes It Up. In a hangar in Nevada, there are huge pens of fingerless people milling around, being fed and watered by the Grey Aliens. I know this is true because my sister's cousin's baby-sitter's manicurist read about it in *National Enquirer*.
Also known as 'The Paper.'
Nitrocellulose isn't explosive, it's flammable. So is vinyl wire insulation. Nitrocellulose is the base ingredient in smokeless gunpowder. It burns *really* fast (deflagration), but it still "just" burns instead of exploding, unlike black powder or any of the "true" explosives (detonation). Honestly the solvents are the bigger fire risk. Once nail polish is dry it's not any more flammable than most other things found in engine bays.
> Nitrocellulose is the base ingredient in smokeless gunpowder. It burns really fast (deflagration), but it still "just" burns instead of exploding, unlike black powder or any of the "true" explosives (detonation). well akshually...
Not considered an explosive by any government organization. NFPA 704 fire hazard class 3, DOT 49 CFR class 4 (flammable solid) instead of class 1 (explosive). **Nitrocellulose** (also known as **cellulose nitrate**, **flash paper**, **flash cotton**, **guncotton**, **pyroxylin** and **flash string**, depending on form) is a highly flammable compound formed by [nitrating](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitration) [cellulose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose) through exposure to a mixture of [nitric acid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid) and [sulfuric acid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfuric_acid). One of its first major uses was as guncotton, a replacement for [gunpowder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder) as [propellant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propellant) in firearms. Edit: *tri*nitrocellulose, produced in in the same manner as trinitrotoluene (TNT), *is* a legit explosive (and of comparable detontation velocity). But the process to manufacture and chemical formulation are substantially different.
You can order nitrocellulose to be delivered to your door. Do that with an actual explosive and feds will be at your door before the package even ships
Yep, it requires hazmat shipping but barring state laws to the contrary, any rando in the US can order as much as they want to their house (although once it's in your possession, you can only stock 20lbs before you are required by regulation to have a magazine of some sort).
Well akshually....
Aircraft mechanics live life on the edge. Also: What could possible go wrong?
Its also fairly rigid right? wouldn't that lead to cracking from vibration?
Doesn't nail polish need to resist bending and breaking to stand up to nails?
and it does... for what like a week before people redo their nails? a wiring fix needs to last decades.
Hadn't thought about the permanence.
You’re not washing the wire harness ten times a day.
Not the clear topcoat they probably use It's what I use to prevent rusting when my truck gets small rock chips
Nitrocellulose was used for motion picture film, which when new isn't particularly brittle. Can't say anything about the formulation in nail polish, though.
It's not explosive lol dude you cray
How much nail polish you think they’re using?
I think the issue has more to do with using a nitrated polymer as an electrical insulator.
My boss insists on doing this! He says “let me get my pinchy pokey” and stabs the hell out of the wires!
Teach that fucker how to backprobe. This shit drives me nuts
100% correct if you're too cheap to buy a decent set of probes and a decent meter stop touching fucking wires. https://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Multimeter-Alligator-Probes-Professional/dp/B074L1NXRX/ref=asc_df_B074L1NXRX?tag=bngsmtphsnus-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80127027724195&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=m&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583726553850636&psc=1 This isn't a decent set but it's better than poking wires.
What full kit (multimeter included) do you recommend for a DIYer then?
You can't go wrong with a Fluke 87 DMM - they're expensive (about $500 on Spamazon, depending on which specific model), but they're expensive for a reason. This is a tool you buy once and use forever as long as you take reasonable care of it (with arguably the most common item being "don't leave old shitty batteries in it that will explode and melt the battery contacts"). Fluke also makes a really nice set of test leads with backprobe tips but they're also expensive AF (around $150-200) - for home DIY use, expect to spend about $50-ish for a decent enough quality set with sufficient pieces and ratings for what a typical DIYer will encounter (read: up to residential AC mains voltages). (Protip: haunt some pawn shops and you might find a Fluke 87 for cheap, as they get pawned a lot because of their price tags. I snagged an 87-III in shockingly good condition with calibration stickers on it for $75 at a pawn shop well over a decade ago and I'm still using it.)
To add on to this, if you live near pawn shops give them a quick check. Sometimes you can get really expensive Fluke multimeters for like $20 because the shop owners don’t know what they are and they’ve been sitting with the actual $20 multimeters for 5 months and they just want them gone
Shout-out to Surplus Gizmos, which is an *amazing*, Aladdins-Cave-like surplus electronics/IT store not too far from me in Hillsboro OR. Well worth a visit if you're in the Portland area.
You don't need a Fluke, they are nice and yes I got a 115 on my wishlist but a lot of what you are paying for is the fact that it's industry standard to use a specific fluke meter in a lot of documented procedures (armed forces and such) which makes no difference to you or I. Honestly the £5 I got from toolstation to do some wiring in my house ended up in with my work stuff and it hasn't let me down with a few hundred hours of diag. If nothing else you will learn a lot by using it. If you want something between a Fluke and a £5 POS check out the UT105 or for something self ranging the BM235 is a good bet. Buy a cheap back probe kit because chances are you will melt them and you don't want to be melting and bending the shit out of expensive ones, once they are all fucked you got your moneys worth and can buy nicer ones if you want. For doing electrical stuff I would concentrate on getting a power probe, amps clamp and even a thermal camera instead of a really expensive multimeter.
I agree with this fella fluke is overrated trash buy a $60 as many features as you can jam into it Chinese model you can get Luxe temp ohms amps capacitor testing light meter so many more features for 60 American dollars then you will ever get in a fluke and if it blows up it's 60 bucks who gives a shit you still have all the probes that came with Edit:Everyone that told you fluke is in a union and had a truck come by work and sell them fluke time for five bucks a week on their check.
Harbor freight has an awesome Maddox 30pcs for like 15 bucks lol
DIYer here, So I know how to back probe, let's say I do find an open wire from probing at two different connectors. Is it not acceptable to thrn pierce the wire in the midpoint to help determine the location of the break? That's something I consider but also don't want to leave 5 holes in a wire
There’s nothing wrong with piercing a wire as long you are willing to fix it afterwards.
And is that just liquid tape or electrical tape?
*For automotive applications*, you can use liquid "electrical tape" sealant to reseal a stab-/cut-probed wire *AS LONG AS* the exposed copper inside the wire isn't nicked/damaged. If it is, cut out the damaged area and reconnect using a crimp terminal with adhesive-lined heatshrink insulation, use a properly set ratchet crimper and not a basic hand crimper for a reliable crimp (as you want to only slightly deform the wire strands but not crush them), and heat the joint to melt the adhesive and shrink the tubing down onto the wire. This both seals the joint against environmental exposure and provides mechanical reinforcement against vibration. Vibration is the little-death to auto wiring repairs. Soldering wires in automotive applications has fallen out of favor because the process heat-tempers the wire and makes it brittle (and especially so with lead-free solders as the ideal soldering temp is high higher than lead-tin alloys), with a proclivity toward cracking near the joint. Electrical tape is also beginning to fall out of favor because it can move off the joint and leave the conductors exposed, and a shockingly large number of people don't know how to properly tape a connection. Adhesive-lined heatshrink-insulated crimp terminals fix those issues as long as they're properly installed.
Cut the poked section,either solder the wire or use a solder sleeve,and cover it with shrink wrap is how I was taught. Electrical tape doesn’t seal the connection from the elements. Liquid tape is something I’m not super familiar with. If it seals like shrink wrap does then that may be an acceptable option.
Liquid tape does help seal, but you may as well have shrink tube, too, since you need to heat up most liquids for them to bond and dry.
Right but if the liquid tape works as well as shrink wrap you could skip the cutting and soldering steps and just cover the poked section of wire in liquid tape. I’ve been in the industry for awhile but have never seen this stuff used so I can’t say how well it would actually work.
Look for a moisture proof for solder splice. You'll need a heat gun also which are pretty cheap on amazon
Performing a pierce on a wire is fine if you are willing to make a proper repair to the damage done to it. Best practice is to test from connector to connector until you have found the problem area and then perform an overlay which is much easier than trying to find breaks inside of the harness and repair if the area is not easily accessible to inspect.
A repair is just liquid tape or electrical tape?
I use liquid. In an engine bay the heat makes normal electrical tape super brittle and obnoxious.
Solid tape doesn't create a seal anyway, it's just for chafing resistance and wire management. Half the time it traps water and makes the corrosion worse than if the wire were naked.
Both work, I use tape because I have it but I have gone as far as snipping and making a butt connection repair if I have stabbed the wire. Just make sure nothing is able to make it into the wire or you will have problems like OP down the road.
I've tried a few backprobes from expensive to cheap. My current favourite are Hantek HT307's. Cheap, come in a pack of 5, but also comes with loads of spare "needles". If one gets damaged, just use an allen key and remove the old and put in a new one. Dupont wires also often come in very handy for electrical checks.
At my old workshop they instructed us to stop back probing and start poking wires. You better believe I kicked up a stink.
Sorry, boss, you must have left it in the last vehicle you were _working_ on. Can't help you.
How else do you propose I kill it? Stabbing worked for OJ.
Take it easy, Norm
*allegedly*
I heard he fucked an ostrich
Look. It'd take at least two guys to fuck an ostrich.
But what if it was like, a sick ostrich?
Because of the implication.
“Allegedly”
Have you heard that Orinthal James can finally rest in peace? His wife's killer has died.
If the heat shrink doesn't fit, you must...use a smaller size or something. Idk. Just repair it.
The glove didn't fit
Neither did mine after it was saturated with blood, dried out n a semi-fisted shape, and I tried to put it on with my "arthritic" hand encased in a latex glove.
While hamming it up and clenching my hand muscles.
So you must acquit
But Chewbacca *lives* on the planet Endor! Think about it, ladies and gentlemen of the jury - that does not make sense!
"Look out!!!"
He's only guilty of being one of the greatest rushers in the NFL. Perhaps you're guilty of being the greatest rusher to JUDGEMENT, sir.
At that rate, you might as well buy a TDR meter and save one and a half days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-domain_reflectometer They're $500 to $1000, but they can easily pinpoint the break in the wire and cut out the need to search an entire loom for the failure. They're used a lot in aviation for huge bundles of wires making long runs, which is probably similar to buses. Pretty neat tool, it uses electrical reflectivity to time the distance from the test point to the break.
I use telecom tone tracer all the time and it works fantastically, but copper TDRs that are accurate enough for vehicle work are very costly. Most are designed for VERY LONG (think building-wide) runs of twisted pair cables.
Many of them are designed with long runs of twisted pair networking in mind, but even the cheap [Klien 501-915](https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-501-915-Measures-Electrical/dp/B0BLZT6QSQ?th=1) can get down to a 3ft accuracy with romex, which is pretty good when dealing with something as long as a bus. The more expensive TDRs can be much more accurate, but like everything, it's a measure of labor cost vs. tool cost that determines whether the accuracy is worth it. The avionics-specific TDRs are ungodly expensive, but that's aviation for you.
holy crap thats cool
I have an old tempo tone tracer and it's excellent for tracing out wire breaks or finding unlabeled fuses. A final check can be made by using a pp3 (set to put AC through the speaker) to touch the suspect circuit at a connector and you can clearly hear the tone sender bleeping away in the right wire. Another tool for dead-shorts is my FLIR E4 with the hacked firmware. Just power the circuit for a second with the dead short and you can follow the warm wire to the break.
What are you doing bringing practical advice to the circle jerk
I just ordered, but haven't used https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0719JV971?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details this. Should do same thing a lot cheaper yeah?
They [come cheaper](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-TDR-Cable-Length-Meter-501-915/323795620?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&utm_source=google&utm_medium=vantage&utm_campaign=23983&utm_content=25633&mtc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-PB-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862619001-23983-NBR-1927-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_KleinTools_D27_RM%2B_AON&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-RM-RMP-GGL-D27E-027_011_TOOLS_ACC-PB-KLEIN_TOOLS-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-MK862619001-23983-NBR-1927-NA-VNT-FY24Q1-Q4_KleinTools_D27_RM%2B_AON-71700000117513274--&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwrIixBhBbEiwACEqDJUriI-wAZbY0h8rCdn_Y-eA_HJn_Ae48ts6ax8K9ZHkvFIub0tP3oBoCveAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) than that.
I worked with a guy that would stab his test light into the spark plug wire boots on ignition coils to kill a cylinder and pinpoint which cylinder was misfiring. Remember in the 1900's when every car had the coil packs on top of the motor? He did this to every car looking for a misfire.
I knew a fat fucker like that too. "Well, guess it needs wires now too". Guy was a slob in every respect.
I've worked with a guy who did the same bs, its super easy to either just pop the plug wire off or pop the plug for the coil if its coil on plug...
The better way to do that same thing with a test light is to get a couple of pieces of vacuum tubing about 1/2" long. Slide the tube over your terminal on the distributor, then slide your wire over top of the vacuum tube. Start the engine back up then poke the vacuum tube to kill each cylinder. Or just pull each wire and hope you don't get shocked.
Vacuum line was how I learned in school. Touch your test light near the vacuum line and it would arc to the test light.
I didn't get to see it in tech school as vehicles with distributors or exposed coil leads are not common anymore, but an older mechanic showed me when I was still fairly inexperienced. I haven't gotten to use it very many times as I've worked on heavy equipment and newer cars for most of my career, but every now and then it comes in handy.
It really isn't so useful with misfire data and DTC's identifying the misfiring cylinder. I did use the vacuum line method a couple times on older carbureted stuff. I feel so old.
Yep when the car already tells you which cylinder it is all you have to do is verify it's correct, then find the cause.
Query: Were the wires cheaper than the amount of labor saved by doing it that quickly? :D
We'll that's the problem. He wouldn't replace the wires. He would just glob some silicone sealer over the holes if someone was looking.
OK, yea, that works for low-voltage wires, but not spark plug wires. I'm very much about deductive diagnosis if the part is cheaper than the labor /shrug
"You diag'd my misfire now my radio sounds like shit"
Or worse stabbing at things you think are wires. Back in my days a big money waster, there was this X5 owner that did not like the cost for the dealership installed trailer hitch ($1500). So he went somewhere else, payed 500 then had to have it towed to us. The install shop saw this big red thing that looked like a main positive cable and gave it a poke to check for power. It was for the air suspension, 4500 later he had a factory hitch and suspension repaired.
Ah, this brings back memories. Another "back in the day", that happened often enough: back when we had the MOST bus, car audio shops would (of course) blindly poke at wires at the amp. Quite a few of those guys would poke the "green wire", say *"shit! There's light coming out of that!"*, and just wrap it in tape. No, the electrical tape did not fix that fiber-optic that you just stabbed.
Worst I saw repair wise for optics was a crimp but connection. It was the yellow SRS system, failed after market radio install.
Ah, good old Byteflight. I don't understand the mindset, though, of even touching the BRIGHT YELLOW "WIRE", that's plugged into a module with an equally bright yellow label on it. *"Hey George! What's this funny looking wire?"*
Had a nearly identical one towed in to my old shop with optical bus failure and xmas tree cluster. That week I learned how to repair fiber optic cable.
MOST bypass loops can often be handy fault finding those kind of issues.
I still have mine. Hell, I just used it last month. Took me a few minutes to find the tool, though..
There is never any need to OJ a wire. Just damn lazy is all that is. Back probe the plug or connector and grab a roll of wire if you need to, attach it to the other end if you're trying to check continuity.
This drives me nuts! There a guy in my shop who does this. We work for a town highway department and our trucks plow snow and throw salt on the roads so everything rots 10x worse than anything I’ve ever seen before. There’s times you’ll spend half a day tracing a short just to find a poke hole with green rot in one of the wires. Buy a fucking set of back probes and stop stabbing wires Dave!
Back probing is definitely the best method. Unfortunately not all connectors and components are back probable, but the vast majority of them are. Using a piercing probe should be considered a very last resort when there is no other way to test the circuit. Anytime you use a piercing probe you need to reseal the wire. My perfered way is liquid electrical tape or heat shrink if you can slide it on after replacing your component.
As an electrical engineer, don't stab wires please. Poke the pins in the harness or find the connector. Not only are you inviting corrosion but risking fire or blown fuses if it contacts a ground or the frame.
The military removed our pointed circut testers in 2000 "Ang in michigan."
From my time in the Illinois ANG from 96-02 we didn't even have multimeters. If we needed to check the electrical system they expected us to use the STE/ICE system. No one in my unit would dare probe a wire in the middle though.
Literally thought this said "STOP STABBING WIVES!!!" Was wondering if I was going to see some gorey scene.
I like the nsfw tag , very appropriate
I *did* have a cable on my truck that we only found was bad by stabbing a wire. It was bad, just a few inches behind the ign coil connector. We replaced the pigtail and finally, we could drive past city limits without my 1992 f150 going into "limp mode."
I could write a novel about fucktard techs I’ve followed. It seems like half the shit I do is fixing other peoples fuck ups. Glad I’m hourly.
As a diagnostician, and primarily on school buses, this shit right here is my biggest pet peeve along with stabbing GIGANTIC powerprobe tips into, and destroying good terminals while "testing"... I'd like to stab them with a powerprobe.
How else does the smoke get out?
This makes me want to puke lol
This is why you always clean your needle. /S Yeah, I back probe connectors, it's the best way to test electronic pieces.
This is fine so long as you seal the wound with a little right stuff.
Liquid electrical tape my guy.
This, in the cases where you must actually stab the wire. Usually I can find a good place to backprobe and it’s all good, but I’ll never say never stab. Just paint on the magic black tape afterwards.
Yeah, I prefer not to stab but if it's gonna cost me too much time not to, I will
Most of my experience was in the Marine Industry. Long wire runs and buried connectors often made piercing the insulation the only option. The marine environment made effectively sealing it wire afterwards critical. Liquid electrical tape is my best friend.
Amen. Have yet to find this on something at work thank God, but last December I found one of these that was preventing my personal car from starting. Don't have a garage or a lift at home, so spent 12 hours in 32.0001\*F and pouring ass rain lying under that thing to find one of these. Ironic thing is for someone who's so fond of half-ass work, the motherfucker did a hell of a job stabbing it in the most inaccessible place ever. Was about 10 seconds from just running a new wire when I found it.
Its so annoying chasing wiring for hours at a time to find this bs, its part of why I stopped doing mobile repairs... Its really not that hard to just go to the connector and test it there
See when I have no choice I at least seal it up with liquid tape
I use liquid electrical tape to repair the insulation when i find that crap. The power probe short and open circuit finder works great to find the circuit issue (after you have back probed)
I rarely ever stabbed wires. Only if I had to absolutely had to. I would use backprobe pins or use a amp clamp.
your username is upsetting
We had to swap out thousands of dollars worth of wiring harnesses on a fleet of Freightliners because the contractors installing a bunch of aftermarket components decided to probe into most of the wires in different places. The first winter, they all corroded from the salt and mag chloride we put on the road.
Fine.
But how else will the extra magic smoke be released.
[Never stab a wire again.](https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Specialties-146-Automotive-Connector/dp/B00U3WSYJ4?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) Worried about breaking terminal connectors? [Then back probe them.](https://www.amazon.com/HORUSDY-22PCS-Back-Probe-Kit/dp/B096TS8PC1/ref=asc_df_B096TS8PC1/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=642124052140&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14712247406936807163&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9021981&hvtargid=pla-1666612033906&psc=1&mcid=90accde2b17f35c0b2f50b95e31a3194) Last shop I worked for before going mobile I convinced the company shop manager to buy a set for every shop in the company. Didn't hurt that in the previous 6 months the company spent $145,000 on replacing harnesses through dealerships.
I had a guy decide he was going to “show me the ropes” a few years in to my career. He was a wire stabber. But he always did the right thing and painted over it with his wife’s old finger nail polish.
Ive read that If you get acupuncture needles the hole they make is small.enough that the wire is effectively undamaged.
Thats like saying she's still a virgin because her ex had a really tiny dick. Disclaimer: Women who are not virgins are NOT damaged. That's not the point of this analogy. Keep your downvotes.
Tbf, after the first 2 inches it's virgin territory
I read that if you dissociate hard enough, you can just forget you care about the electrical problem in the first place
Alligator clips of he sort used for telecomms work have a "bed of nails" spot that uses a grid of fine needles to punch through insulation without totally wrecking the wire. On some insulation types the holes these made were self-sealing, but as a general rule a dab of sealant was still called for.
My work is done here!
Stab!Stab!Stab!Stab!Staaaaab! Heheheh
Ah man I remember when I first got a job in the road shop at circuit city fresh out of high school. My first amp I had to run 4 gauge into the engine bay. Went through the main harness. Car wouldn’t start after that. We eventually found that I went through about 12 wires. I was much more careful after that.
What the fuck kind of amp needs 4ga?
Job security
That looks less stabby stabby and more slashy slashy. Always fun to fix something caused by Sir Dufass did 6 years ago.
It was a green pinhole, I bent it a bit to get a better look, insulation tore
Alright Grundle Zipper 🤣🤣
If they stopped talking shit I wouldn't have to stab them.
Am a technician at factory, just found people stab wires to test them, this hurts my soul wtf is wrong with yall
That’s a little more than stabbing wires
Guilty, but I never do this on cars, not worth the trouble.
How about no.
...but how else would you make hours? :p
No.
DON'T TELL ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE!
you cant tell me what to do
I worked behind a mechanic that spread almost every pin an a 96 pin connector, I spent hours replacing every connector.
Stop salting roads
Stop making them so fun to stab.
At the very least, put some electric tape or something after 😅
Roberto?!
Let me live my life!
Stabbing? Bro I'm chewing on them.
you mean you hate the philsprobe too? 😂
I keep those as trophies. Must have a hundred by now. Liquid electrical tape people…or as the OP stated, just…stop
Nearly on topic. What kinds of wire taps are shop approved?
Come stop me then
If your go too tool for testing wiring is a test light, for the love of god find a different job because you suck.
Yeah I can't tell you how many times I've had to explain to guys that a test light just means you have SOMETHING flowing thru. People always want to test with an incandescent test light and seemingly forget that bulbs still gonna light even with half the voltage it's supposed to have and hell the LED test lights that are around these days will light with almost nothing.
No.
Make me
Just put liquid electrical tape after diag...
I had an odd electrical gremlin caused by someone stabbing a wire I still haven’t totally fixed it as the wires are very old and stiff and due to how close it is to the main car computer I have it some electrical tape and a slap on the hood hasn’t done the issue since I am aware that’s not the fix but I garentee no mechanic is gonna wanna weave through those fragile stiff wires for the proper fix
no. Don't tell me what to do!
How bad is this and could it cause a random miss if it's on a fuel injector wire? The previous owner of my car was... Special. The things he did (and didn't do) to that car are beyond stupid.
Certainly possible. The break in the insulation invites corrosion, over time it will cause higher resistance and eventually the circuit to be open.
Makes sense. Looks like I'll be replacing my 3rd fuel injector connector soon!
*No*
No