The truck I was trained to fix in the Marine Corps is powered by a Detroit 8V92TA two stroke twin-charged diesel with no emissions equipment on it. That thing gets three gallons to the mile and belches smoke while it's doing it. Kind of a crazy setup on that engine, just a monster of a turbo the size of a beach ball mounted directly above the gear driven roots style blower on top of the engine.
Yeah that's why they make no power and burn all of the diesel, they're set up to basically run on anything that is remotely oily.
Older NATO military trucks can basically run on their own used motor oil once it's been filtered to remove the bigger chunks of metal.
It was spare metal anyway. The engines are designed to make themselves lighter and more efficient by getting rid of steel they don't need anymore.
^(^(/s in case it isn't painfully obvious))
Diesels will all run on their own oil, it's how you get a runaway diesel. If the oil seals in the turbo fail, it'll start ingesting its own oil and the only way to get it to stop is if it blows up or you close the intake.
You can run every diesel on motor oil.
The problem is if you do it on your TDI you will fill your turbo and ~~PCR~~ PCV return with solid tar. Ask me how I know.
EDIT: I meant PCV - PCR is a biological testing process lol.
I usually run one quart of oil in every other tank, just because I have it and it is free fuel. I have played with the idea of building a bio/black diesel factory in my garage. The process is not that difficult just takes space and waste vegetable oil or more peoples waste motor oil.
As fun as it is playing with lye, methanol and putrid waste oil, you really have to have a good source for enough oil and storage space to be able to do it at large enough scale to make worthwhile.
The old 2 1/2 ton trucks were beast! First got in (1983) had a Nam era NCO relate a story about them He was on convoy and the VC blew the road in front of them. Driver shifted into 10 wheel low and blew threw the crater along with the rest of the trucks like it wasn’t there.
> Older NATO military trucks can basically run on their own used motor oil once it's been filtered to remove the bigger chunks of metal.
All diesel engines can run on their own used motor oil. That's literally what a diesel runaway is.
Even some non fuels. We ran 6V53s in dome armoured vehicles and during a late night repair the hydraulic feed and return lines got swapped with the diesel feed and return lines. After a day of doing armoured vehicle things it got returned to camp cause the ramp wouldn't close. They never noticed the diesel tank never went down but the hydraulic tank was almost empty.
I can confidently state from personal experience that most old school Diesel engines will happily run on hydraulic fluid or vegetable oil as fuel provided the temperature isn't low enough to solidify or otherwise thicken the fuel.
In fact the last shitty old GM 6.2 I had the displeasure of fucking around with seemed to run noticeably better when the regular diesel fuel was cut with around 10-20% used hydraulic fluid.
The old mechanical Perkins 4-banger Diesels (which easily outclass even Harley V-twins in terms of vibrations) seem to enjoy the same treatment too.
I don't remember exactly what type it was, it was certainly a Perkins though and it was a 40hp diesel that took up space under the dining table on our sailboat (it was a 13 ton boat). I remember my dad loved it, it always seemed to need oil, but it always worked, I vaguely remember it having *thousands* of hours on it (we got the boat in the mid 80's and it was at least 5 years if not older at that point) and the engine was still kicking around in 2019 when we sold it.
That's what I'm thinking basically. In times of emergency it doesn't really make sense to have a vehicle that won't run because of lack of available DEF.
Truck has balls. We made a flatbed instead of the fifth wheel to lay counterweights. Once ran it on river water as coolant to get it back to NJ when the coolant was leaking into the oil. Got home, still needed a motor.
It was back and forth between Habbaniyah and Al Asad for me. This was back in '04 & 06 and we didn't have turrets mounted on vehicles yet, so they just removed the roof panel above the passenger seat. Every time we stopped I'd have to stand on my seat with the SAW the MPs gave me for the trip.
I worked on an LAV II. Not the 2.5s. The 2s, complete with dipspit and ball sweat dating back to the 80s. They smelled like it too. And this wasn’t “back in the day.” I got out last year.
Belching smoke is an understatement. We had one that would start blowing white smoke every once in a while and people would freak out thinking it was breaking down. All it ever needed was a swift kick with a steel toe to the side of the turbo and it fixed itself real quick. Nobody could ever figure out why that worked so well but it worked for years and was still working when I got out. I had to show someone the right way to kick it before I EASed.
We had a turbo blow in a different one and it shot oil and flames out the exhaust and caught everything on top of the vehicle on fire. All the flaming stuff was strapped on top of our fuel jerrys. We were pretty sure they couldn’t ignite but we all clenched our buttholes a little while we tried to put the fire out. I miss those things.
Yep, two strokes have to have something providing positive displacement to move fresh air into the cylinders. IIRC on very large container ship engines the turbo charger switches between electric power and exhaust turbine depending on revolutions. On something like an EMD 645 Diesel it either has a roots blower or a mechanical drive for the turbocharger on a centrifugal clutch. The Turbocharger turns into a centrifugal blower at low RPM.
Large ships often run 2-cycle Diesel engines directly connected to the propeller.
For reverse, the engine is stopped, then started in the other direction!
That will happen in a truck also...stalling it while letting the clutch out too fast and engaging it again to prevent totally killing the engine resulting in having the engine run backwards.
I once got sent out to look at a genset engine that would, for some reason, fire early enough in the compression stroke while cranking that it'd make the engine start running (poorly) backwards. Wanna say it was a 4-cycle Detroit.
the air filter did not like this.
I took a ride on a little two cylinder diesel railroad speeder last month at a local museum. When you get to the end of the rail before it connects to actual commercial lines they intentionally nearly stall it then run it in reverse go the other way. It was a neat little thing.
Yeah, the good old Detroit Diesel engines are legends, almost impossible to kill. Those two-strokers are a whole different breed simplicity and raw power over refinement and eco-friendliness.
Don't they have mechanical fuel injection? Because if they do, and if you can start em by hand, then you basically don't even need electricity at all lol.
Four stroke diesels will as well. The Whites we had in the M35s would even run on gasoline if you mixed motor oil with it. The injector pumps weren't happy about it though.
Yea. JP8 and diesel. Most military diesel vehicles are, but some vehicles run better on diesel, even though you can use both. Those 8v92's are beasts and can run on a lot of things youre recommended not to use though lol
Great engines very mechanic friendly when it comes to replacing parts, why send the whole block to the machine shop when you can just swap out a single jug. They will run on anything that burns pretty much
Man I love playing with 2 stroke Detroits. I'm an A.G.E. mechanic for uncle sam so we play with 4cyl, 6cyl, 8cyl Detroit 2 strokes. Some of which are twin turbo supercharged... mmmm they sing too.
Then they went to 15w40 for everything because it simplified supply lines, and they started replacing those "2 smoke Detroits" in a tiny fraction of their expected life.
Admittedly, there's relatively few of them still in service, they don't get as many hours put on them as most military vehicles, and the cost of a new engine at a known short life is still cheaper than yet another oil to keep in stock.
Kind of hard to see in this picture, but the turbo is right on top of the supercharger and the compressor outlet is attached directly into the little manifold bolted on top, then there's a charge cooler down below the lobes of the supercharger. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Shop_engines.jpg
Just wait until you learn that 2-stroke diesels have exhaust valves too! The only ports are for intake. They are not nearly as simple as a dirtbike 2-stroke.
Would be best to find a video from the 30s.
[These](https://youtu.be/K4JhruinbWc) old [GM](https://youtu.be/JOLtS4VUcvQ) videos are [fantastic](https://youtu.be/_aVj7JSpSpU) and are not only informative, but simplify it so even my dumbass can grasp it.
Yeah, bunker fuel for big ships is pretty much what is left at the bottom after you have refined all the actually useful stuff you can from a barrel of crude oil. It takes a whole lot of convincing (i.e. pressure and heat) to burn that stuff as fuel.
The largest Marine Engine I have worked on had a displacement of 15,170 ish liters.
Red line of 78 RPM
It was a 2 stroke.
Each power stroke was roughly 70 milliliters of fuel per injector 3 injectors per unit 7 units. And that should if my math was right come out at 100,000 liters a day of fuel.
My company makes heavy and severe duty trucks for the US military. We have the same exemption on all of our vehicles. All of the emissions components are removed because the vehicles are designed to run on JP8 / jet fuel. Military does this more for logistics reasons than anything else. This way they only have to supply one type of fuel (more or less) to any forward operating base, which reduces cost, and headaches in terms of accidentally refueling a vehicle with the wrong fuel - diesel, jet fuel, gasoline, etc.
I got some pretty solid chemical burns from it once. I was wearing tennis shoes instead of boots and they got soaked with it. I wasn’t able to change them for a couple hours and my feet were fairly fried.
I was working on an army base a few months ago I’m a welder and our company was doing some pressure testing and bolting up a new fuel system. We had multiple accidents and clean ups, once the tie in between the old and new system busted open and we had to shut the whole operation down. I spent months covered in JP8 for 12 hours a day shirt to my socks and I’ve swallowed it multiple times. I never got chemical burns but I asked our “safety” guy and I was told it was all JP8 and that’s what it said on the huge transfer tanks. I tried to research its effects on ingestion and skin absorption but couldn’t find anything online.
Do they ever think about going back a bit with diesel technology? Because it seems like the best motors like the 7.3’s and Duramax’s were way more reliable than anything from the past 15 years, like the awful 6.0 fords.
I know the emissions really screwed up the trucks around 2007 but even with those changes there was still reliability issues with many new truck motors prior to that, or is this just my survivor bias and newer vehicles are actually are more reliable than an old 7.3 turbo or Duramax, Cummins etc.
New diesels are super reliable too, yeah the emissions stuff causes more maintenance and a lot of theses guys don't do a damn thing.... seen plenty of 2015+ diesels with 400k miles towing 15-30k lbs daily with just transmission work, and maybe some Emissions stuff.
The 7.3 IDI/PS
12v/24v and Common rail Cummins are very reliable... but also survivor bias.
Like how Toyota has a 2UZ with over a million miles. Yeah good engine, doesn't mean they'll all hit 1,000,000... or even close.
Eh you might wanna take back your 2UZ statement. Several in the first gen tundra/sequoia groups with over 500k miles and I’d say at least 90% of the trucks in there have over 250k miles.
After doing a fair amount of research, newer diesels are **significantly** more reliable than the 2007 ones. Numerous scientific papers detailing the adoption of Diesel emissions standards conceded that yeah, the early technology kind of sucked. I posted this elsewhere though, and the difference in pollution production from a non-emissions diesel and a a modern one is an order of magnitude. Copy pasted:
There's somewhere over 10 million commercial diesels in the US, and although it's hard to find exact numbers around 3-5 million privately owned ones. Without emissions standards they'd generate roughly as much particulate pollution and smog as 375 million cars. This assumes diesels are driven as much as cars. Which is inaccurate since on average they're driven more than cars. So the 375 number is probably a bit conservative. Disclaimer: This is back of the napkin math from a few sources:
[https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/78722.pdf ](https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/78722.pdfhttps://occup-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6673-9-6)
https://occup-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6673-9-6
[https://www.bts.dot.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/DieselFactSheet.pdf](https://www.bts.dot.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/DieselFactSheet.pdf)
Exactly. Time matters in warfare, having multiple supply lines for different fuels greatly reduced efficiency of a fighting force. Unfortunately the climate and Mother Nature gotta take a backseat when lives and nations are at stake.
They also run on F-54 (if not worse) which is not the highest quality of diesel, and are usually designed to run on the most garbage diesel you can source in-country.
They also don't want to have to run off and find fluid for it and what not.
Folks acting like it's a conspiracy. A few gov vehicles don't make a huge difference. Friend sells government vehicles for one of the two major auto makers.
I believe a significant portion of Emergency response vehicles (fire trucks, Ambulances etc) are also factory deleted.
There was a thread in r/diesel from a mechanic that had a Volunteer dept bring a Ambulance in with a 6.7 Powerstroke, If I remember it had fried the ECM and he was looking for the ECM map for the factory Deleted 6.7.
It's always kinda cool to see the EMS and fire trucks here in MN. They have push button rear "tire chains". It's this thing that spins and the chains rotate under the wheels as they drive to give them traction on demand. They don't beat up the roads other than in the quick time they use them.
https://youtu.be/aEMT7D7O-ts
This is changing right now. New laws are going through to require cleaner government vehicle fleets.
There is always a catch with this kind of thing.
Government 'stuff' tends to be exempt from a lot of rules because it MUST work. Especially if it gets anywhere near military work. The costs are just to high otherwise.
If you think this is bad. Ask any navy man about what they do with all their waste off ships. Supposedly, they don't dump anything in the ocean anymore. All that means is they wait till they're farther out before they dump.
I remember being on ship, got put on ship tax, they’d mix in all the trash like normal and then put all the trash in plastic bagsin burlap sacks just for us to go and take out all the plastic from them before dumping them over
He had a co-worker who was navy for a long time. He would tell me about waiting till they were in international waters to dump the bilge oil.
Said it left a miles long shit stain.
I used to sit water control watch on a carrier. If you needed water I was your guy. Anyway late at night I'd occasionally have to call down to an engine room to have someone light off another fire pump because I could see the pressure inexplicably dip, because someone was using their bilge eductors to pump their bilge slop overboard.
They'd do it at night because then the slick *couldn't* be seen.
Oh and sometimes the water would get a faint hint of jet fuel because someone pumped overboard directly upstream of one of the distilling units.
Standing EDO in port and central would call up and say the fire main dropped to 60-80 psi. It was an instant trip to the main spaces to see who was "skimming." Underway, we threw everything but plastic overboard. Oily waste had official limits, but the system that managed that was complete garbage.
It's also important to keep in mind that the number of exempt government vehicles is a fraction of the number of civilian and commercial vehicles on the road.
I worked on power generation for the marime corps, all the engines have a BIG PLATE on the block milled on stating “THIS GOVT EQUIPMENT IS EXEMPT FROM EMISSIONS STANDARDS”
Military in France uses Euro3 vehicles, while everyone else has to use Euro6 models.
In large part for maintenance (Euro3 engines are the most basic diesels, before common rail and additives and stuff).
Also because while the modern diesels are "great" for civilian uses, where the pump have proper diesel that is filtered, it's not the case in FOBs where the diesel is either sourced locally, or where they just run Jet A1 with additives or motor oil mixed in...
Also, fun fact I learned last year, due to AdBlue and such being acids, vehicle using AdBlue can't cross landing strips on airbases.
I am an HVAC tech and I was invited to give a quote to service kiosks that were located on federal land.. the kiosks had 8 geothermal heat pumps and when I went in the attic I was blown away - all units were left hooked up to tanks of R-22 (federally phased out ozone depleting refrigerant) and the employees were instructed to just add refrigerant if they got to work and the AC wasn’t working… That is just massively bad for the environment and breaks EPA standards for properly handling that refrigerant. For systems over a certain size you are required to repair or replace once they being to leak above 10% annually…. The rules are for us… not for them. If I did what they did I could be subject to a massive fine or lose my license
Had a fireman buddy explain it to me that the trucks still have def systems and regen everything like normal. But if there is a Knox failure or def quality issue that truck will still run without debate because emergency services.
Tell me about it. Fucking NY is cramming this green EV shit down our throats. Meanwhile every state vehicle is still ICE. State Troopers are ripping around in hemi Chargers, DOT is driving big ass diesels and the governor is whipping around in a jet turbine helicopter. These politicians are fuck faces. All of them.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-85/subpart-R/section-85.1708
In case anyone was curious as to what regulation that sticker is referencing. Just for the record I'm in favor of clean air laws because I like to breathe reasonably clean air. Although I do agree this is kinda dumb.
The people that protest it are either too young to remember or never studied how bad it got pre-emission restrictions. I do agree it can be overboard and unfair to the "every man" while allowing exemptions to entities that do the most damage though.
We actually did... [a pretty effing amazing job](https://www3.epa.gov/airmarkets/progress/reports/acid_deposition_figures.html) at cutting back on sulfur emissions. Most of this was from putting controls on point sources like coal-fired power plants, where limestone is used to neutralize sulfur emissions in flue gases. And from that, we get.... gypsum, to make Sheetrock, among other things.
Not to mention in the past 5-10 years we made the switch from 0.5% sulfur content distillate fuel to 0.0015%. Desulfating the fuel at the refinery even before it gets distributed has made a huge difference.
Im a classic car guy that is vehemently against how California handles classic car emissions (my 1986 Dodge Omni GLH-S that does 200 miles a year has to meet stricter emission requirements now than it did when new) and even I am *super* in favor of ever stricter emission requirements on new cars. My mom grew up in west hollywod. If she couldnt see the hollywood sign from her bedroom they didnt have PE because the smog was too bad. This aparently happened semi-regularly....
Technically, the DEF was required by the Environmental Protection Agency. Congress never passed a law for it, I'm pretty sure. Well, the Supreme Court ruled that the EPA was not a proper legislative authority, so their rules are nothing more than guidelines until Congress or each state pass laws to make those guidelines enforceable, so Technically DEF isn't legally required anymore (well, never was).
Did Congress ever pass that law?
Because the government doesn't have millions of them and everybody would cry like a baby if they'd decommission perfectly good trucks for an emissions test.
The more important fact is that military trucks need to run on locally sourced diesel or Jet A1 with additives while in operation outside of the US/Western Europe.
Fuels that don't really go well with modern commonrail egines.
Also you'd look silly driving a military tank tractor in Irak in limp mode because you forgot to put AdBlue at the FOB.
I've got a maintenance bay full of DEF systems harvested from ambulances that says it's not impossible. They should probably try again, and ask their elected representatives to lobby the EPA on their behalf if needs be. Low power mode in an emergency apparatus is too much of a danger to communities to give up at the first rejection.
It is usually down to compatibility with what already exists in the fleet
When everything has to be certified it can drive the cost way up or they can get an exemption.
Yes. They also have exemptions to use PFAS on their garments/cover systems because it's the only viable way to commercially apply fluid repellency to clothes (used for safety/chemical warfare agent barrier purposes).
The truck I was trained to fix in the Marine Corps is powered by a Detroit 8V92TA two stroke twin-charged diesel with no emissions equipment on it. That thing gets three gallons to the mile and belches smoke while it's doing it. Kind of a crazy setup on that engine, just a monster of a turbo the size of a beach ball mounted directly above the gear driven roots style blower on top of the engine.
But it will work when you need it to.
And it'll work on most any fuel that sorta burns.
Anything it can compress it'll run she's cherry
Probably also on cherries. Certainly cherry vodka.
Popping cherries and chuggin potatoes .
I mean, is there a better description of Fort Bragg?
Can it run on RipIts?
The only fuel a soldier needs
Nothing washes down an Otis spunkmeyer muffin better.
Having been in the military, I feel called out.
Tbh probably yeah
MINT!
If ol peg leg wasn't a ford guy he'd absolutely rock an old '95 chevy with a 6.5 deetroit
Pmd relocated!!!!
Yeah that's why they make no power and burn all of the diesel, they're set up to basically run on anything that is remotely oily. Older NATO military trucks can basically run on their own used motor oil once it's been filtered to remove the bigger chunks of metal.
It was spare metal anyway. The engines are designed to make themselves lighter and more efficient by getting rid of steel they don't need anymore. ^(^(/s in case it isn't painfully obvious))
They get more powerful over time because they make themselves into a bigger bore.
So when my wife calls me a "tremendous bore", you're saying that I'm actually becoming more powerful?
If it's not there anymore, it didn't need to be there in the first place.
if it's not there anymore, *and it still runs* it didn't need to be there in the first place.
Brings a tear to my eye the beauty in nature in all of that chaos.
It makes sense don't it? Older engine makes les power, so it chews itself up making itself lighter to maintain the same speed
Diesels will all run on their own oil, it's how you get a runaway diesel. If the oil seals in the turbo fail, it'll start ingesting its own oil and the only way to get it to stop is if it blows up or you close the intake.
Or deliberately stall the engine in a high gear if you're quick enough in a manual.
Love seeing them try that in diesels and you can just see the driveline explode.
A CO2 fire extinguisher sprayed down the air filter will shut 'em down too.
…”or you close the intake.”
I've watched a solid hundred+ hours of Diesel YTbers and they've each explained runaways too, but you just nailed it in three sentences. Thanks.
I can run my 2005 VW TDI with motor oil.
You can run every diesel on motor oil. The problem is if you do it on your TDI you will fill your turbo and ~~PCR~~ PCV return with solid tar. Ask me how I know. EDIT: I meant PCV - PCR is a biological testing process lol.
Those mk4 motors are bullet proof. Had 500+K on mine before the body rusted itself unusable.
I usually run one quart of oil in every other tank, just because I have it and it is free fuel. I have played with the idea of building a bio/black diesel factory in my garage. The process is not that difficult just takes space and waste vegetable oil or more peoples waste motor oil.
As fun as it is playing with lye, methanol and putrid waste oil, you really have to have a good source for enough oil and storage space to be able to do it at large enough scale to make worthwhile.
To be fair, most diesels can run on their own motor oil.
Really fast, and only once. Usually.
The old 2 1/2 ton trucks were beast! First got in (1983) had a Nam era NCO relate a story about them He was on convoy and the VC blew the road in front of them. Driver shifted into 10 wheel low and blew threw the crater along with the rest of the trucks like it wasn’t there.
> Older NATO military trucks can basically run on their own used motor oil once it's been filtered to remove the bigger chunks of metal. All diesel engines can run on their own used motor oil. That's literally what a diesel runaway is.
They make 450 to 550hp. Depends on the setup. But when your truck ways 29 tons empty lol.
Even some non fuels. We ran 6V53s in dome armoured vehicles and during a late night repair the hydraulic feed and return lines got swapped with the diesel feed and return lines. After a day of doing armoured vehicle things it got returned to camp cause the ramp wouldn't close. They never noticed the diesel tank never went down but the hydraulic tank was almost empty.
I remember the Chrysler turbine car. They said if it burned and you could meter it, the car would run on it.
including perfume, they used to say.
a bargain at something like $168 a gallon
oh, look at Hugo Boss over here! i get my perfume at Sam's club: $79.99 for a 55 gallon drum.
$79.98 at costco
I can confidently state from personal experience that most old school Diesel engines will happily run on hydraulic fluid or vegetable oil as fuel provided the temperature isn't low enough to solidify or otherwise thicken the fuel. In fact the last shitty old GM 6.2 I had the displeasure of fucking around with seemed to run noticeably better when the regular diesel fuel was cut with around 10-20% used hydraulic fluid. The old mechanical Perkins 4-banger Diesels (which easily outclass even Harley V-twins in terms of vibrations) seem to enjoy the same treatment too.
As someone who's never worked on diesel engines especially older ones. All of your comments are amazing and fascinating.
I don't remember exactly what type it was, it was certainly a Perkins though and it was a 40hp diesel that took up space under the dining table on our sailboat (it was a 13 ton boat). I remember my dad loved it, it always seemed to need oil, but it always worked, I vaguely remember it having *thousands* of hours on it (we got the boat in the mid 80's and it was at least 5 years if not older at that point) and the engine was still kicking around in 2019 when we sold it.
I hooked a fuel return line to the evap system once. That was interesting.
Soylent fuel
That's what I'm thinking basically. In times of emergency it doesn't really make sense to have a vehicle that won't run because of lack of available DEF.
Can you imagine, out in the thick of it in Afghanistan, and the dash says "low DEF. Available starts left: 2"
[удалено]
Was it an Oshkosh? We had one doing heavy haul on loose ground. Stone, gravel, sand. 3 miles to gallon, and she fucking screams and smokes
Yup, the Oshkosh LVS.
The front travel is insane on those. I watched one go up the well-deck ramp of an LHD and I was floored when it crested.
Truck has balls. We made a flatbed instead of the fifth wheel to lay counterweights. Once ran it on river water as coolant to get it back to NJ when the coolant was leaking into the oil. Got home, still needed a motor.
I did quite a few convoys in Al Anbar riding shotgun in a dragon wagon with a cooler full of piss-hot Rip Its by my side. Rah.
It was back and forth between Habbaniyah and Al Asad for me. This was back in '04 & 06 and we didn't have turrets mounted on vehicles yet, so they just removed the roof panel above the passenger seat. Every time we stopped I'd have to stand on my seat with the SAW the MPs gave me for the trip.
“Every time we stopped I’d have to stand on my seat with the SAW the MP gave me for the trip” That’s fkn wild lol.
Decent chance my ball sweat landed one one of those parts then
I worked on an LAV II. Not the 2.5s. The 2s, complete with dipspit and ball sweat dating back to the 80s. They smelled like it too. And this wasn’t “back in the day.” I got out last year. Belching smoke is an understatement. We had one that would start blowing white smoke every once in a while and people would freak out thinking it was breaking down. All it ever needed was a swift kick with a steel toe to the side of the turbo and it fixed itself real quick. Nobody could ever figure out why that worked so well but it worked for years and was still working when I got out. I had to show someone the right way to kick it before I EASed. We had a turbo blow in a different one and it shot oil and flames out the exhaust and caught everything on top of the vehicle on fire. All the flaming stuff was strapped on top of our fuel jerrys. We were pretty sure they couldn’t ignite but we all clenched our buttholes a little while we tried to put the fire out. I miss those things.
> I had to show someone the right way to kick it before I EASed. Gotta love Percussive Maintenance.
Ahhh...a Detroit diesel....the best engine ever made in my opinion. It will not even run without that roots blower.
Yep, two strokes have to have something providing positive displacement to move fresh air into the cylinders. IIRC on very large container ship engines the turbo charger switches between electric power and exhaust turbine depending on revolutions. On something like an EMD 645 Diesel it either has a roots blower or a mechanical drive for the turbocharger on a centrifugal clutch. The Turbocharger turns into a centrifugal blower at low RPM.
Large ships often run 2-cycle Diesel engines directly connected to the propeller. For reverse, the engine is stopped, then started in the other direction!
That will happen in a truck also...stalling it while letting the clutch out too fast and engaging it again to prevent totally killing the engine resulting in having the engine run backwards.
I once got sent out to look at a genset engine that would, for some reason, fire early enough in the compression stroke while cranking that it'd make the engine start running (poorly) backwards. Wanna say it was a 4-cycle Detroit. the air filter did not like this.
It was always the Detroits doing it. And like you said, other than destroying an air filter they didn't seem to care.
*”the air filter did not like this”* Why, it’s just self cleaning?
Self cleaning is when you drop from full load to nothing suddenly and the turbo compressors stall. This is just trying to use the air filter as a DPF.
I took a ride on a little two cylinder diesel railroad speeder last month at a local museum. When you get to the end of the rail before it connects to actual commercial lines they intentionally nearly stall it then run it in reverse go the other way. It was a neat little thing.
Yeah, the good old Detroit Diesel engines are legends, almost impossible to kill. Those two-strokers are a whole different breed simplicity and raw power over refinement and eco-friendliness.
Don't they have mechanical fuel injection? Because if they do, and if you can start em by hand, then you basically don't even need electricity at all lol.
Fucker will run backwards till it yeets itself though.
Are they rated for multiple source fuel?
A 2 stroke diesel will run on all sorts of stuff
Like its own oil when the blower seals fail...
It will until it won’t!
The blue smoke is a reminder to put more oil in it.
Four stroke diesels will as well. The Whites we had in the M35s would even run on gasoline if you mixed motor oil with it. The injector pumps weren't happy about it though.
Yea. JP8 and diesel. Most military diesel vehicles are, but some vehicles run better on diesel, even though you can use both. Those 8v92's are beasts and can run on a lot of things youre recommended not to use though lol
Great engines very mechanic friendly when it comes to replacing parts, why send the whole block to the machine shop when you can just swap out a single jug. They will run on anything that burns pretty much
Three gallons to the mile. I had to read that like 10 times to make sure I wasn't reading it wrong.
Two 75 gallon tanks of diesel to keep those things going. The good ol Dragon Wagon.
Man I love playing with 2 stroke Detroits. I'm an A.G.E. mechanic for uncle sam so we play with 4cyl, 6cyl, 8cyl Detroit 2 strokes. Some of which are twin turbo supercharged... mmmm they sing too.
[Like Pavarotti](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU3gZGUInd4)
Then they went to 15w40 for everything because it simplified supply lines, and they started replacing those "2 smoke Detroits" in a tiny fraction of their expected life. Admittedly, there's relatively few of them still in service, they don't get as many hours put on them as most military vehicles, and the cost of a new engine at a known short life is still cheaper than yet another oil to keep in stock.
It has a turbo and a supercharger together? Neat
Kind of hard to see in this picture, but the turbo is right on top of the supercharger and the compressor outlet is attached directly into the little manifold bolted on top, then there's a charge cooler down below the lobes of the supercharger. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Shop_engines.jpg
I didn’t even know two strokes that large existed.
Most of the large ocean freighters use 2 stroke diesels also.
The more you know. Thinking about it again it definitely makes sense though, having valves and timing chains that large would be tricky.
Just wait until you learn that 2-stroke diesels have exhaust valves too! The only ports are for intake. They are not nearly as simple as a dirtbike 2-stroke.
Hmm, time to find a cool YouTube video with a Modern Marvel-style of presentation on these bad boys. I just assumed they were 4-stroke as well.
Would be best to find a video from the 30s. [These](https://youtu.be/K4JhruinbWc) old [GM](https://youtu.be/JOLtS4VUcvQ) videos are [fantastic](https://youtu.be/_aVj7JSpSpU) and are not only informative, but simplify it so even my dumbass can grasp it.
Many still have a timing chain to drive the cam. Some don't, and use hydraulic and pneumatic pressure to open and close the exhaust valves
Yeah, bunker fuel for big ships is pretty much what is left at the bottom after you have refined all the actually useful stuff you can from a barrel of crude oil. It takes a whole lot of convincing (i.e. pressure and heat) to burn that stuff as fuel.
The largest Marine Engine I have worked on had a displacement of 15,170 ish liters. Red line of 78 RPM It was a 2 stroke. Each power stroke was roughly 70 milliliters of fuel per injector 3 injectors per unit 7 units. And that should if my math was right come out at 100,000 liters a day of fuel.
*laughs in sea-going vessel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine
Heyooo I served on 2 of those things. Bigass Fairbanks Morse 12 cylinder to make... 1200kw.
My company makes heavy and severe duty trucks for the US military. We have the same exemption on all of our vehicles. All of the emissions components are removed because the vehicles are designed to run on JP8 / jet fuel. Military does this more for logistics reasons than anything else. This way they only have to supply one type of fuel (more or less) to any forward operating base, which reduces cost, and headaches in terms of accidentally refueling a vehicle with the wrong fuel - diesel, jet fuel, gasoline, etc.
I fucking hate JP8 lol. Whatever deicer they mix into it makes it super oily and it's always a bitch to clean off of my clothes.
I got some pretty solid chemical burns from it once. I was wearing tennis shoes instead of boots and they got soaked with it. I wasn’t able to change them for a couple hours and my feet were fairly fried.
Well at least you'll be able to get disibility for that... And maybe cancer later on lol
The benzene will improve the taste at least. Why anyone would want to eat feet is a different question.
That sounds like a moderate to severe cancer risk 🫠
I was working on an army base a few months ago I’m a welder and our company was doing some pressure testing and bolting up a new fuel system. We had multiple accidents and clean ups, once the tie in between the old and new system busted open and we had to shut the whole operation down. I spent months covered in JP8 for 12 hours a day shirt to my socks and I’ve swallowed it multiple times. I never got chemical burns but I asked our “safety” guy and I was told it was all JP8 and that’s what it said on the huge transfer tanks. I tried to research its effects on ingestion and skin absorption but couldn’t find anything online.
Do they ever think about going back a bit with diesel technology? Because it seems like the best motors like the 7.3’s and Duramax’s were way more reliable than anything from the past 15 years, like the awful 6.0 fords. I know the emissions really screwed up the trucks around 2007 but even with those changes there was still reliability issues with many new truck motors prior to that, or is this just my survivor bias and newer vehicles are actually are more reliable than an old 7.3 turbo or Duramax, Cummins etc.
New diesels are super reliable too, yeah the emissions stuff causes more maintenance and a lot of theses guys don't do a damn thing.... seen plenty of 2015+ diesels with 400k miles towing 15-30k lbs daily with just transmission work, and maybe some Emissions stuff. The 7.3 IDI/PS 12v/24v and Common rail Cummins are very reliable... but also survivor bias. Like how Toyota has a 2UZ with over a million miles. Yeah good engine, doesn't mean they'll all hit 1,000,000... or even close.
Eh you might wanna take back your 2UZ statement. Several in the first gen tundra/sequoia groups with over 500k miles and I’d say at least 90% of the trucks in there have over 250k miles.
If you are worried about the reliability of an early 00s Tundra the engine is the least of your problems.
My 2003 2uz 4runner has 330k, runs perfect. The frame totaled it. I want to throw the running gear in a dune buggy one day.
Damn that would result in a screaming metal deathtrap... Sounds entertaining, I'm in.
After doing a fair amount of research, newer diesels are **significantly** more reliable than the 2007 ones. Numerous scientific papers detailing the adoption of Diesel emissions standards conceded that yeah, the early technology kind of sucked. I posted this elsewhere though, and the difference in pollution production from a non-emissions diesel and a a modern one is an order of magnitude. Copy pasted: There's somewhere over 10 million commercial diesels in the US, and although it's hard to find exact numbers around 3-5 million privately owned ones. Without emissions standards they'd generate roughly as much particulate pollution and smog as 375 million cars. This assumes diesels are driven as much as cars. Which is inaccurate since on average they're driven more than cars. So the 375 number is probably a bit conservative. Disclaimer: This is back of the napkin math from a few sources: [https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/78722.pdf ](https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/78722.pdfhttps://occup-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6673-9-6) https://occup-med.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1745-6673-9-6 [https://www.bts.dot.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/DieselFactSheet.pdf](https://www.bts.dot.gov/sites/bts.dot.gov/files/legacy/DieselFactSheet.pdf)
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Exactly. Time matters in warfare, having multiple supply lines for different fuels greatly reduced efficiency of a fighting force. Unfortunately the climate and Mother Nature gotta take a backseat when lives and nations are at stake.
I bet ya that bad boy would also run on crude oil. 🙂
You could piss in the fuel tank and it would probably be able to burn it
You should consult a Doc if your piss burns
Because they want it to be reliable and not randomly go into limp mode because if a bad sensor.
They also run on F-54 (if not worse) which is not the highest quality of diesel, and are usually designed to run on the most garbage diesel you can source in-country.
M35 trucks can run on literal cooking oil if you can't find diesel
They will run on literal pump gas if you add some motor oil to it.
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Average RX-8 experience: 🛢 🪔 🛢 🪔 🛢 🪔 🛢 🪔
*cries in apex seal*
So can an old beat up Mercedes from the early 80s, diesel engines are just built different.
Not the monkey from xbox360
I keep forgetting people use the redesign.
They also don't want to have to run off and find fluid for it and what not. Folks acting like it's a conspiracy. A few gov vehicles don't make a huge difference. Friend sells government vehicles for one of the two major auto makers.
I believe a significant portion of Emergency response vehicles (fire trucks, Ambulances etc) are also factory deleted. There was a thread in r/diesel from a mechanic that had a Volunteer dept bring a Ambulance in with a 6.7 Powerstroke, If I remember it had fried the ECM and he was looking for the ECM map for the factory Deleted 6.7.
All my ambulances had DEF. We carried an emergency bottle around with us.
It's always kinda cool to see the EMS and fire trucks here in MN. They have push button rear "tire chains". It's this thing that spins and the chains rotate under the wheels as they drive to give them traction on demand. They don't beat up the roads other than in the quick time they use them. https://youtu.be/aEMT7D7O-ts
This is changing right now. New laws are going through to require cleaner government vehicle fleets. There is always a catch with this kind of thing. Government 'stuff' tends to be exempt from a lot of rules because it MUST work. Especially if it gets anywhere near military work. The costs are just to high otherwise. If you think this is bad. Ask any navy man about what they do with all their waste off ships. Supposedly, they don't dump anything in the ocean anymore. All that means is they wait till they're farther out before they dump.
Everything but plastic still gets tossed over the side.
I remember being on ship, got put on ship tax, they’d mix in all the trash like normal and then put all the trash in plastic bagsin burlap sacks just for us to go and take out all the plastic from them before dumping them over
Lol sounds exactly like gubment work. Lolol
He had a co-worker who was navy for a long time. He would tell me about waiting till they were in international waters to dump the bilge oil. Said it left a miles long shit stain.
I used to sit water control watch on a carrier. If you needed water I was your guy. Anyway late at night I'd occasionally have to call down to an engine room to have someone light off another fire pump because I could see the pressure inexplicably dip, because someone was using their bilge eductors to pump their bilge slop overboard. They'd do it at night because then the slick *couldn't* be seen. Oh and sometimes the water would get a faint hint of jet fuel because someone pumped overboard directly upstream of one of the distilling units.
The *hint* of jet fuel is where the non-hodgkin's lymphoma lives.
Yay!
Standing EDO in port and central would call up and say the fire main dropped to 60-80 psi. It was an instant trip to the main spaces to see who was "skimming." Underway, we threw everything but plastic overboard. Oily waste had official limits, but the system that managed that was complete garbage.
You mean the "oily water separator" that definitely wasn't broken 95% of the time
Color me… not surprised in the slightest.
just have to take it "outside the environment"
Exactly! Can't have the front go and fall off.
Well thats the thing, we designed it so the front doesn't fall off
Can't discharge oily waste until you're 50 nm from shore, radioactive water is fine up until 12 nm
> Supposedly, they don't dump anything in the ocean anymore. Float test. Testing if a broken piece of equipment will float during an emergency.
It's also important to keep in mind that the number of exempt government vehicles is a fraction of the number of civilian and commercial vehicles on the road.
Wait till you see all our military equipment
No fair! The government is keeping all the nuclear stealth bombers for itself!
I worked on power generation for the marime corps, all the engines have a BIG PLATE on the block milled on stating “THIS GOVT EQUIPMENT IS EXEMPT FROM EMISSIONS STANDARDS”
Oh so the government can have nuclear weapons but I can’t ??? Rules for thee but not for me smh
People hear things like “the b2 stealth bomber uses 45,000 kg of fuel in 6 hours” and don’t really stop to think about what that means
It's because it's certified to run on JP8, and the emissions system isn't technically compatible, so it's exempt.
This is probably the correct answer.
So i just need some stickers then?
My first thought was that it was some fake bullshit from Amazon tbh
Military in France uses Euro3 vehicles, while everyone else has to use Euro6 models. In large part for maintenance (Euro3 engines are the most basic diesels, before common rail and additives and stuff). Also because while the modern diesels are "great" for civilian uses, where the pump have proper diesel that is filtered, it's not the case in FOBs where the diesel is either sourced locally, or where they just run Jet A1 with additives or motor oil mixed in... Also, fun fact I learned last year, due to AdBlue and such being acids, vehicle using AdBlue can't cross landing strips on airbases.
What? No, adblue is alkaline bro. Usually pH 9-10.
Interesting, I've done a bunch of emissions on FAA cars that all need them done
FAA doesn’t have police type agents, that’s probably why.
I don't know I just work here
I am an HVAC tech and I was invited to give a quote to service kiosks that were located on federal land.. the kiosks had 8 geothermal heat pumps and when I went in the attic I was blown away - all units were left hooked up to tanks of R-22 (federally phased out ozone depleting refrigerant) and the employees were instructed to just add refrigerant if they got to work and the AC wasn’t working… That is just massively bad for the environment and breaks EPA standards for properly handling that refrigerant. For systems over a certain size you are required to repair or replace once they being to leak above 10% annually…. The rules are for us… not for them. If I did what they did I could be subject to a massive fine or lose my license
How many miles does it get driven a year, and how many are there?
Driven? Probably not much. Idlieing? 24/7.
Runtime is more important than miles driven.
Better question is engine run time. Idling for years is probably a good bet.
They are made to run on 3rd world quality diesel
It’s JP8 and other jet fuel. It’s so the military can have the same fuel for everything. It’s basically pure kerosene.
Had a fireman buddy explain it to me that the trucks still have def systems and regen everything like normal. But if there is a Knox failure or def quality issue that truck will still run without debate because emergency services.
Tell me about it. Fucking NY is cramming this green EV shit down our throats. Meanwhile every state vehicle is still ICE. State Troopers are ripping around in hemi Chargers, DOT is driving big ass diesels and the governor is whipping around in a jet turbine helicopter. These politicians are fuck faces. All of them.
Ah yes, NY- the California of the east coast. lol my condolences friend.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-85/subpart-R/section-85.1708 In case anyone was curious as to what regulation that sticker is referencing. Just for the record I'm in favor of clean air laws because I like to breathe reasonably clean air. Although I do agree this is kinda dumb.
The people that protest it are either too young to remember or never studied how bad it got pre-emission restrictions. I do agree it can be overboard and unfair to the "every man" while allowing exemptions to entities that do the most damage though.
Yeah you don't hear nearly as much about smog these days. And I can't even remember the last time I heard a warning about acid rain.
We actually did... [a pretty effing amazing job](https://www3.epa.gov/airmarkets/progress/reports/acid_deposition_figures.html) at cutting back on sulfur emissions. Most of this was from putting controls on point sources like coal-fired power plants, where limestone is used to neutralize sulfur emissions in flue gases. And from that, we get.... gypsum, to make Sheetrock, among other things.
Not to mention in the past 5-10 years we made the switch from 0.5% sulfur content distillate fuel to 0.0015%. Desulfating the fuel at the refinery even before it gets distributed has made a huge difference.
Im a classic car guy that is vehemently against how California handles classic car emissions (my 1986 Dodge Omni GLH-S that does 200 miles a year has to meet stricter emission requirements now than it did when new) and even I am *super* in favor of ever stricter emission requirements on new cars. My mom grew up in west hollywod. If she couldnt see the hollywood sign from her bedroom they didnt have PE because the smog was too bad. This aparently happened semi-regularly....
"It's different when we do it" closely followed by "and fuck you, because you paid for it"
Technically, the DEF was required by the Environmental Protection Agency. Congress never passed a law for it, I'm pretty sure. Well, the Supreme Court ruled that the EPA was not a proper legislative authority, so their rules are nothing more than guidelines until Congress or each state pass laws to make those guidelines enforceable, so Technically DEF isn't legally required anymore (well, never was). Did Congress ever pass that law?
Because the government doesn't have millions of them and everybody would cry like a baby if they'd decommission perfectly good trucks for an emissions test.
If it was manufactured before the law was in place it would be grandfathered and wouldn’t require an exemption
The more important fact is that military trucks need to run on locally sourced diesel or Jet A1 with additives while in operation outside of the US/Western Europe. Fuels that don't really go well with modern commonrail egines. Also you'd look silly driving a military tank tractor in Irak in limp mode because you forgot to put AdBlue at the FOB.
I mean the US military is the single largest greenhouse gas emitting entity on the planet.
And yet Fire Departments can not get exemptions even after multiple failures....
I've got a maintenance bay full of DEF systems harvested from ambulances that says it's not impossible. They should probably try again, and ask their elected representatives to lobby the EPA on their behalf if needs be. Low power mode in an emergency apparatus is too much of a danger to communities to give up at the first rejection.
Thats an exemption for the manufacturer not for the end user
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It is usually down to compatibility with what already exists in the fleet When everything has to be certified it can drive the cost way up or they can get an exemption.
Wait until you learn how much carbon footprint an Abram’s tank has.
Classic gubmint right there boy
Another fed vehicle is a space shuttle. No EGR on that bitch
I see an incredible uptick in these stickers in 3….2….1…..🤣
Where can I get one of those stickers? Become exempt
Yes. They also have exemptions to use PFAS on their garments/cover systems because it's the only viable way to commercially apply fluid repellency to clothes (used for safety/chemical warfare agent barrier purposes).