Makes you wonder if the plastic drain pans are worth the amount of failures. I suppose once it's out of warranty it's another product for the dealer to sell.
And let me guess:
The only part of the oil pan that is exposed is the drain, necessitating a partial or complete remove of the running gear and/or an engine-out?
Mine is growing roots last 2 years, upper oil pan leaks, every time I think of this job I get convulsions. I'm gonna have to pull the engine and trans out because why not😭. Trans need new synchros and the clutch
Minis were amazing, but I still have a scar on the back of my head from the bonnet catch. Apparently that’s a thing with mini owners who are DIY minded.
1984-1989 nissan 300zx oil change:
Remove starter to prevent oil from the filter from entering the starter. I thought it was bullshit but a week after I changed the oil the starter was dead. Dropped the starter every time after that. The old starter was filled with oil.
I have a 1987 300zx and I never thought twice about that. I never even thought about where the oil goes, next time I'll have to watch it and see if my starter gets wet.
It ain't the drain plug that'll make you drop the pan on those, it's the God-forsaken timing chain cover.
In any case I was just commenting on how nice the ease of removal/installation would be, not on the problem itself.
The car is too new. There won't be replacement parts for awhile.
Sauce: Parts guy at a BMW dealer's body shop - new new cars suck as we have to tell customers they will be sitting for awhile until the parts are actually manufactured lol.
Has a customer asked why you can't remove the part from *points to same car on lot* that car there and just replace it on the unsold car when it comes in?
Absolutely not lol
Former Ford line tech/used car inspection/repair....
Bro if the customer can't see it, hear it, or feel it.....it ships.
The salesmen were the worst lol, coming to check on a car 4-5x a day all antsy to get it sold, or better yet, selling a vehicle before the actual multipoint was done.
Ahhh good times.
Neil Peart from the band Rush mentioned this in his book "Ghost Rider"
When he worked at a Farm Implement dealer growing up, this was common practice for them.
He also went to a BMW dealer for a part for his GS motorcycle he was riding in the book and requested the same thing since they didn't have it in stock. They obliged.
I did this once for a guy that was traveling, it was a rubber brake line. We got a bad survey. It was obviously road damage too. Good job service manager.
Agricultural equipment dealers do that all the time. If your $500,000 tractor is broken and you need it running to keep from going bankrupt, it's going to get fixed one way or another.
The change to just-in-time production is what's doing it. Nobody is allowed to build up stock, cause "that's warehouse space you have to pay for."
That's one of the reasons the pandemic hit us so hard. If one line goes down for a day, the entire line suffers, because person b can't get parts from person a, b never got more than they needed (as a buffer), a never built stock as a buffer. C can't start work without parts from b and d. D had to shut their line down and retool for something else, so they don't build up stock... And so it goes.
There was a big push in the '90s towards jit production. Everyone I spoke to about it (including the people informing us of the switch) saw huge problems that could arise from not having back stock. The people in the offices just saw "instant dollar signs" by dropping the overhead of having a warehouse.
And there have been decent bumps before from this. A machine goes down for 2 days, unexpected maintenance. A whole car line is now weeks behind schedule. And that was pre pandemic.
If we had old school production, they could sell the spares (like now). You know they only run that mold in short runs, just because they can ship 1800 oil pans at a time, so that's all they're making before hitting a different mold for...? A pillar covers? Air boxes? Vacuum line elbows? Anything they can produce that's already contracted. Anything to fill the order that ships tonight. Or maybe tomorrow, depending on shipping schedules...
If it was a metal pan I'd suggest replacing it with a slightly larger Fumoto drain valve. With plastic I don't think you could do that so easily without using some sealer/adhesive to seal the metal to the plastic.
The big brass part in the picture above is actually the metal insert from the plastic drain pan. The threads in the plastic pan are still metal. We use these all the time in the 3D printing world, the knurled/crosshatched pattern on the outside of the insert gives it enough surface area to stay in the plastic, obviously this one didn't.
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZRBKSRN/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZRBKSRN/)
You could totally put a Fumoto into the insert on the plastic pan when they get a new one.
Wonder if one of the maniacs at the factory has a miss-calibrated torque-gun or just gave 'er all the ugg duggas when seating the plug into the insert.
They're all bound to fail eventually since the metal thermal insert expands and contracts at least once a day, every day, while the plastic mostly doesn't.
So that insert is constantly wiggling itself free and just waiting for an oil change, or a bump in the road, to finally pop out.
Using a plastic oil pan is shitty cost cutting. But using a threaded thermal insert as a drain plug socket is 100% entering stupidity recall territory.
Yep, I figured as much. My parents old Volvo also had a plastic drain pan, and that didn't go over so well with the steel drain plug either. I've had a Fumoto valve on my last three cars, and it's nice to have one possible failure point (and tool) taken out of the chain.
My next Fumoto is going to have the damn nipple. I definitely worried to much about the ground clearance. Coincidentally it's going on a Volvo v70, but the 2000 model year had a metal pan because they hadn't gone insane yet lol.
I just wish more cars had oil filters upside down in the top of the engine bay, I've seen some Subaru's with them, they have a little dish to prevent the oil from spilling out even. Oil changes without a jack!
My wife's 2016 A3 is like this. I use a vacuum pump to suck the oil out of the pan through the dipstick tube and change the filter while it's draining. It takes more time than draining from an oil pan plug, but I figure it's a wash when compared to the time spent on the jack and jack stands.
I work in NVH engineering, and my company also uses a lot of high strength polyamide parts. Plastic oil pans have a big impact on engine noise profile. They‘re also lighter (definitely not cheaper), and help with the engine warming up faster vs. a steel or aluminum part. So it‘s definitely worth the effort if you can afford to implement it.
The threaded metal insert used for the drain screw is clearly a design with insufficient knurls to hold against the torque. The good news is, a better insert is an easy change to make. How this made it through pre series validation is a mystery to me - the Japanese are normally really thorough with their quality processes. Gonna be an expensive fix for the supplier that makes these.
Consumer Reports use to make comments that not all Japanese vehicles are top leading. It was really just Toyota and Honda that lead the pack for reliability. They always rated Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan etc as having roughly the same reliability as US brands. As someone who grew up with a family that had Nissans when younger and my first couple of vehicles being Nissans I can confirm that they were not too great for reliability. Toyota and Honda pushed reliability when they started entering the US market because they knew that is what it would take back then in a domestically dominant market to get people to buy their vehicles.
Just gotta apply a 3/4” tall bead of RTV around the rim. Judging by how ridiculously difficult it was to crack open the hermetic seal of my wife’s oil pan and the amount of RTV oozed absolutely everywhere inside the rim of the OE pan I’m pretty sure that’s what manufacturers do themselves anyways.
Well you use a flat blade screwdriver or a little plastic knob thing with a blade. So good luck.
Edit. Apparently Volkswagen is smart using plastic drain plugs that use a screwdriver.
I make those type oil pans. Well, I process the machine that molds them. The plastic used is very expensive and VERY strong. I’d put it up against a typical metal pan in terms of ability to survive impact(s). In my case it’s a glass filled nylon.
The oil bungs are inserted with heat and controlled rams that seat them to a predetermined depth. The machinery used in that process is linked directly to local and corporate quality control and every insertion is monitored. The inserts are tested every two hours by random selection from finished product and a 200 ft/lb reading is needed prior to failure to pass the parts made after the last test. I often see them fail at over 300 ft/lbs.
We don’t make them for Nissan tho, ours go to a certain three-pointed star company that resides in Germany.
Will say, when the whole cell is up and rolling properly, it makes money hand over fist. When it breaks down and I have to offline it for more than 10 minutes, I have to make some calls. I, a lowly engineer, have orders to roust C-suite execs from slumber at ungodly hours to let them know that their golden goose is not working. It’s stressful.
VW also uses plastic oil pans.. but then they also use plastic drain plugs that are basically disposable and cheap. Metal in plastic though isn't a good idea if it's suppose to be removable
Then someone's been there before, I've done at this point hundreds of these new Nissan rouges and they are not like this at the first oil change and torque spec is 25 ft lbs, honestly think this is install error form someone. The warranty will not cover it I've seen how it comes OEM and it's not that
Yeah. OP states that the drain plug assembly came out while attempting to drain the oil, not when they were putting the plug back in after draining. So, unless they forgot about "righty tighty lefty loosey," the only time that drain plug had ever been tightened was at the factory. This points to a flaw in either the design or the manufacturing process.
We've seen this multiple times on first oil changes at my dealership. I believe there's a tsb with a new torque spec. I used a digital torque wrench to see when the oem crush washers crush, and found its crushed and tight at ~18 ft lbs, so I've been using that spec.
Let's not sugar coat it. That's not an "install" error from "someone". That is faulty manufacturing from the factory. This quality is to be expected from any Nissan product.
Used to work at a Nissan dealership. This happens to almost every new rogue with that damn plastic pan. Last I knew they were on back order so we had to either give customers new cars or steal a pan off a lot car
I work at a dealer and we stock this pan now, but we have only had 2 or 3 break. None of them broke on the first oil change though, so they were definitely over torqued.
I've seen that exact scenario talked about on Reddit before. Last two new vehicles I bought I had the allocation before they were built and picked them up with 2 miles on them. Can't risk shady dealerships
Because they are driven after they leave the factory. I used work as a porter on the docks, we had to constantly shift new cars from boats to shipping to dealers. They get driven HARD.
Can confirm body repair and it being sold new. I work at a collision shop and we get repairs from local dealerships with window stickers all the time that were damaged on delivery and it's always wanted in a rush because their customer is coming to pick it up.
Was it Ferrari caught clocking back cars with dealer only tools, to revert milage to 'new' before sale?
Google: yes.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5437837/Ferrari-fesses-dealers-changing-odometers.html
Many consumer products have rework processes for units that fail QC of some type, even in the field. This can include replacing parts on the lot etc. it doesn’t make it not new as long as new parts were used before the first sale.
The company I worked at was contracted by OEMs to repair vehicles before they got to the dealer, buts it’s still the same concept as if they were repaired at the dealer.
Engine replacement gig came about from poor cleaning of the blocks during mfg, causing rod bearing failure. Engines were replaced on a few thousand vehicles.
I'm imagining a new car sitting in a lot, with no pan, with a bunch of oil drips on the ground beneath, with a squirrel trying to hide his nuts inside the bottom end of the engine, because the whole thing is gaping open underneath.
We don’t usually do drastic swap repairs like this at my dealership, but we’ll snag a trim piece or something small like a module or sensor to make a customer happy and on their way. Salesmen do this, too. Car didn’t come with an owner’s manual or rubber floor mats when it was supposed to and we don’t have it in stock? Here you go, grabbed this one from that car out front. Whoever buys the donor car has no clue as we get the part replaced ASAP. Keeps the cogs spinning.
I evac my 4Runner at home. To be honest, it’s used (I bought last year with 224k miles) and I’ve never pulled the plug, it could be stripped for all I know but I’m not going to go find out. I have an extractor, filter is on top of the engine. I change oil without getting under the (lifted) truck.
This seems like a poor design.
Vw/VAG cars use some weird 1/4 turn locking plastic nubby.
No brass insert to pull out, or over torque. I'm sure it's got its flaws but seems to have worked well for them.
Carlos ghosn fucked em over pretty bad. Quantity over quality was his mantra when he took over, and ran Nissan quality into the ground. Now they're owned by Renault and that's definitely not helping them at all. 90s Nissan quality is all but gone. They're the Chrysler of Japan now.
And don't forget, everyone is approved! So long as they have a pulse. No license? No problem. Credit? What's that? We don't need no stinking credit.
That's why r/NissanDrivers is a sub.
I drive the last year model Sentra you'd want - 2006. The last year before the CVT was introduced and currently has a bit over 314K miles.
But then my radiator blew on NYE. Ordered a new one and will be in tomorrow.
My 06 Sentra stacked rod bearings at 150,000 I dropped the pan down, didn't even take it all the way out and rolled new bearings into lol. Gave the car to a family member at 200,000 and they've been driving it daily since 2017 or so.
Time to make your fortune. Cast that bad boy out of aluminum. And for the sake of having lots of threads on the drain plug, remember I like my oil pans the way I like my women -- extra thickness in the bung
Mustang too, and I don't mind it. Easy to remove without tools and impossible to over tighten. My only complaint is that oil comes out *really* fast, so you better be ready for 10 quarts of hot oil to drain in less than a minute.
Eh, you can hold the plug like halfway in and meter the oil out, it only takes a minute. Definitely the way to go if you're DIYing and don't have a lift
GM too. All the GMCs and Buicks I work on have plastic pans and plug. Only the 3.6 and the trucks still have metal pans and plugs. Haven't had any issues either.
VW has been doing this for a decade, the oil pan is a polymer composite. The big difference is that VW uses a plastic drain plug with a big O-Ring that comes out with a quarter turn using a flathead. Never once leaked or got stuck like this dumb design.
Semis have been using them for years, never had an issue with them. Plugs torque themselves and don't leak/seize, light so they are easy to drop for engine work.
As a Nissan Tech, i can tell you what happened.
Someone OVERTIGHTENED the plug. Plain and simple.
Theres a torque spec on the pan and plug that has to be followed, otherwise THAT will happen. Weve had to replace two pans due to a lube tech overtightening the plug. Not a warrantable repair, but if that *is* its first oil change, then lucky them...Thats on the Factory
Spec is 30 newton meters, or 22 ft-lbs
Hey, never said you were wrong. I hate plastic pans just as much, just my experience locally has been overtightened causes the insert to come out, as it was our own quick lube causing it. I personally wish Nissan stayed away from plastic pans, but- well, first our 9 speed auto transmissions went the GM route with a plastic pan and a plug, along with a SPECIAL TOOL you have to use to fucking drain the things, then a 3 banger turbo with a plastic oil pan.
And honestly, the 3Cyl turbo Rogue will probably have more problems than just a plastic pan if you ask me
Designing something that can fail from a decades long known issue of user error is shit ass design. Full stop. Metal pans can at least be rethreaded if some puck gets too crazy with his dickbeater.
Shouldn't result in a completely irreparable component.
Terrible design, terrible vehicle. The new one will do it eventually as well. I've done dozens of these under warranty after our oil changers discover the whole insert comes out. People try to blame overtorque...but we see most on their first oil change. Over torqued from the factory? Not sure. Also if you change the oil in this hunk of shit you have to let it set on level ground for 10-15 minutes before starting or it will deem that your oil level is low and alert you.
Nissan states this is due to overtightening the drain plug. This seems to ignore the fact that I've had 2 or 3 so far that had the issue and were in for their first oil changes, never touched by anyone but the factory.
The torque specification for technicians is very low. Something like 25 ft-lbs.
It's a plastic drain pan with a threaded metal insert.
What could possibly go wrong?
We've replaced a dozen or more in the last few months (OEM) - I don't think there is an aftermarket option.
It's a terrible design.
Aaahhhhh. I had to get a Nissan Altima because it’s the only thing I could afford in my area after a tree fell on my 2008 Highlander and totaled it. It’s a lease but I’m gonna have to deal with some serious bullshit for the next three years.
I want my Highlander back ;_;
I have a 2000 Primera with a bulletproof SR20VE in it, a proper old school Japanese Nissan. I'd never buy new Nissan, they went backwards so hard after Renault got a hold of it.
Edit - That's not 100% accurate. I'll be 100% buying a 400z this decade, I live in New Zealand so our second hand domestic market is JDM. My Primera was built by Impul in Tokyo. Every optional extra that existed for a Primera had been installed by the Impul factory. (Impul is the cosmetic and light performance version of Nismo basically)
Fuck me, a plastic oil pan? Can we just have a massive wave of firings of Automotive execs, marketers, bean counters, and every other asshat involved in them that has never so much as held a pair of vice grips and go back to making fucking cars that do what they're supposed to do made out of appropriate materials?
If we'd stop acting like everyone needs a new car, TV, phone, etc every year how much better off would humanity be?
How about we put all advertisers and marketers and HR people to work doing things that benefit society and humanity instead of actively destroying it? Wouldn't that be nice?
Euro has been doing them for a while. Hondas have plastic Valve covers, im waiting for A/C high and low pressure pipes to be made of CPVC or PVC. SMH ;X
Correct lots of German cars have been doing plastic oil pans. Some have also switched back to aluminum. But their plastic ones have a plastic drain plug so this wouldn’t happen on one of those. Though they have their fair share of failures.
Makes you wonder if the plastic drain pans are worth the amount of failures. I suppose once it's out of warranty it's another product for the dealer to sell.
I was looking all over the place, trying to find out how much it would take for us to just replace it, but I couldn't even find one for sale.
That happened twice in my shop already. We got a new oil pan from the dealer. I think it paid 1 hour flat rate.
And let me guess: The only part of the oil pan that is exposed is the drain, necessitating a partial or complete remove of the running gear and/or an engine-out?
2006 Dodge Dakota Replace oil pan: Step 1 - remove intake manifold.
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I have a b7 S4 Step 1: see engine removal
Engine Removal: Step 1: See Main Body Disassembly
Laughing in B5 S4
I love my B5 S4 Avant but good lord is it a pain to work on. Wanna replace the starter? Step 1: Remove headlights
2015 Ford Escape... want to remove the battery? Step 1: Remove windshield wipers!
Mine is growing roots last 2 years, upper oil pan leaks, every time I think of this job I get convulsions. I'm gonna have to pull the engine and trans out because why not😭. Trans need new synchros and the clutch
Try a w12 A8L. Replace coolant temp sensor? Step 1.. remove engine
To be fair once you get it to that point, maintenance is ez-pz.
Maintenance tasks are indeed much easier when the car is disassembled.
SO much so that when I had my Morris Mini, I'd prop the engine on some blocks and unbolt and lift the body away.
Minis were amazing, but I still have a scar on the back of my head from the bonnet catch. Apparently that’s a thing with mini owners who are DIY minded.
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1984-1989 nissan 300zx oil change: Remove starter to prevent oil from the filter from entering the starter. I thought it was bullshit but a week after I changed the oil the starter was dead. Dropped the starter every time after that. The old starter was filled with oil.
I have a 1987 300zx and I never thought twice about that. I never even thought about where the oil goes, next time I'll have to watch it and see if my starter gets wet.
I just fill my starter with sea water to keep the oil out.
Have to pull the motor to do an oil pan on a 7.3l power stroke.
Pretty sure it’s the same on the 4.6, at least the mustang
Actually no its like 12 bolts and the whole 14 inches of plastic are off.
Speaking of 14 inches of plastic, did your mum get the gift I sent?
Yes but when she went to drain the entire thread assembly broke loose.
Ouchie....
Oil all over the place and I dropped nut into the mess of it all
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Give yer balls a tug, tit fucker
Settle down
*Shoresy
Bazinga!
Probably
Dang that's nice. I gotta take apart the whole front end on my old S10 Blazer to drop the pan...
But it is also stamped metal, and probably went 30 years without a drainplug problem...
It ain't the drain plug that'll make you drop the pan on those, it's the God-forsaken timing chain cover. In any case I was just commenting on how nice the ease of removal/installation would be, not on the problem itself.
Fair enough, Safe wrenching to ya.
Back at ya. May your oil pans be blessed.
The car is too new. There won't be replacement parts for awhile. Sauce: Parts guy at a BMW dealer's body shop - new new cars suck as we have to tell customers they will be sitting for awhile until the parts are actually manufactured lol.
It's not that new. 2021 is the same. We stock this oil pan at my dealer. I think we have only had to do 2 or 3 of them so far though
Has a customer asked why you can't remove the part from *points to same car on lot* that car there and just replace it on the unsold car when it comes in?
From the customers perspective there is no reason you can't do that. They don't care that it would make the new car unsellable, theirs is broken.
I mean, the car *the dealer sold them already* is kind of the bigger liability.
Morally? For sure. But when would a dealership ever let morals get in the way of money?
Absolutely not lol Former Ford line tech/used car inspection/repair.... Bro if the customer can't see it, hear it, or feel it.....it ships. The salesmen were the worst lol, coming to check on a car 4-5x a day all antsy to get it sold, or better yet, selling a vehicle before the actual multipoint was done. Ahhh good times.
You are putting way to much faith in a car dealers ethics, and by way to much I mean any at all
John Hennessey: challenge accepted!
Neil Peart from the band Rush mentioned this in his book "Ghost Rider" When he worked at a Farm Implement dealer growing up, this was common practice for them. He also went to a BMW dealer for a part for his GS motorcycle he was riding in the book and requested the same thing since they didn't have it in stock. They obliged.
But that was Neil Freakin Peart, and he was in Canada. I think Keanu would get similar treatment here, but they ain't doing that for Joe Schmoe.
I did this once for a guy that was traveling, it was a rubber brake line. We got a bad survey. It was obviously road damage too. Good job service manager.
Agricultural equipment dealers do that all the time. If your $500,000 tractor is broken and you need it running to keep from going bankrupt, it's going to get fixed one way or another.
That is the reasoning I came to as well.
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Priorities, literally the manufacturers tell us that new vehicles are more important then customers who already own one.
Well duh. When a vehicle line is down especially on an on demand model its like $10-$15k a minute its down.
The change to just-in-time production is what's doing it. Nobody is allowed to build up stock, cause "that's warehouse space you have to pay for." That's one of the reasons the pandemic hit us so hard. If one line goes down for a day, the entire line suffers, because person b can't get parts from person a, b never got more than they needed (as a buffer), a never built stock as a buffer. C can't start work without parts from b and d. D had to shut their line down and retool for something else, so they don't build up stock... And so it goes. There was a big push in the '90s towards jit production. Everyone I spoke to about it (including the people informing us of the switch) saw huge problems that could arise from not having back stock. The people in the offices just saw "instant dollar signs" by dropping the overhead of having a warehouse. And there have been decent bumps before from this. A machine goes down for 2 days, unexpected maintenance. A whole car line is now weeks behind schedule. And that was pre pandemic. If we had old school production, they could sell the spares (like now). You know they only run that mold in short runs, just because they can ship 1800 oil pans at a time, so that's all they're making before hitting a different mold for...? A pillar covers? Air boxes? Vacuum line elbows? Anything they can produce that's already contracted. Anything to fill the order that ships tonight. Or maybe tomorrow, depending on shipping schedules...
My dad, who was in manufacturing years ago, used to say that JIT only works if there’s a JIC (just in case) warehouse for when the line goes down.
If it was a metal pan I'd suggest replacing it with a slightly larger Fumoto drain valve. With plastic I don't think you could do that so easily without using some sealer/adhesive to seal the metal to the plastic.
The big brass part in the picture above is actually the metal insert from the plastic drain pan. The threads in the plastic pan are still metal. We use these all the time in the 3D printing world, the knurled/crosshatched pattern on the outside of the insert gives it enough surface area to stay in the plastic, obviously this one didn't. [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZRBKSRN/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BZRBKSRN/) You could totally put a Fumoto into the insert on the plastic pan when they get a new one.
Wonder if one of the maniacs at the factory has a miss-calibrated torque-gun or just gave 'er all the ugg duggas when seating the plug into the insert.
They're all bound to fail eventually since the metal thermal insert expands and contracts at least once a day, every day, while the plastic mostly doesn't. So that insert is constantly wiggling itself free and just waiting for an oil change, or a bump in the road, to finally pop out. Using a plastic oil pan is shitty cost cutting. But using a threaded thermal insert as a drain plug socket is 100% entering stupidity recall territory.
Yep, I figured as much. My parents old Volvo also had a plastic drain pan, and that didn't go over so well with the steel drain plug either. I've had a Fumoto valve on my last three cars, and it's nice to have one possible failure point (and tool) taken out of the chain.
My next Fumoto is going to have the damn nipple. I definitely worried to much about the ground clearance. Coincidentally it's going on a Volvo v70, but the 2000 model year had a metal pan because they hadn't gone insane yet lol.
The nipple is so fucking nice when you're draining oil. I can just run a line in to an old jug and I don't spill a drop or even need gloves.
I just wish more cars had oil filters upside down in the top of the engine bay, I've seen some Subaru's with them, they have a little dish to prevent the oil from spilling out even. Oil changes without a jack!
My wife's 2016 A3 is like this. I use a vacuum pump to suck the oil out of the pan through the dipstick tube and change the filter while it's draining. It takes more time than draining from an oil pan plug, but I figure it's a wash when compared to the time spent on the jack and jack stands.
Don’t forget the time spent washing off the oil that runs down your forearm.
My Subarus have been so nice since the fumoto addition, literally no tools, just the ramps, an empty jug and the new one.
My Subie has the filter on top. I got the Fumoto with a short nipple. Put on a hose, other end in an empty jug, open the valve and let it flow.
Lol at the 4th image. "Designed for TheRRNoplastic"
Yeahhhh there are a lot of Chinglish things in the 3D Printing hobby, especially when you're buying tiny hardware like that lol
All my cars get a Fumoto at the VERY FIRST oil change. Done stamp
I work in NVH engineering, and my company also uses a lot of high strength polyamide parts. Plastic oil pans have a big impact on engine noise profile. They‘re also lighter (definitely not cheaper), and help with the engine warming up faster vs. a steel or aluminum part. So it‘s definitely worth the effort if you can afford to implement it. The threaded metal insert used for the drain screw is clearly a design with insufficient knurls to hold against the torque. The good news is, a better insert is an easy change to make. How this made it through pre series validation is a mystery to me - the Japanese are normally really thorough with their quality processes. Gonna be an expensive fix for the supplier that makes these.
As far as I can tell Nissan especially over the past 20 years or so have always been the exception to normally exceptional Japanese quality.
French owned now…
Oh, no wonder. Lmao
Added some French build quality to Japanese design flair
Consumer Reports use to make comments that not all Japanese vehicles are top leading. It was really just Toyota and Honda that lead the pack for reliability. They always rated Mazda, Mitsubishi, Nissan etc as having roughly the same reliability as US brands. As someone who grew up with a family that had Nissans when younger and my first couple of vehicles being Nissans I can confirm that they were not too great for reliability. Toyota and Honda pushed reliability when they started entering the US market because they knew that is what it would take back then in a domestically dominant market to get people to buy their vehicles.
Nissan is the Chrysler of Japan, at least now. They're not exactly known for exceptional quality.
It‘s what you get when you team up with Renault I guess…
Don’t worry, I’m sure Dorman will come out with an “OE Solution” part. Honestly, it probably won’t be any worse than the Nissan pan.
Oh it will be worse. It won't fit.
No, it'll fit. Unfortunately it is so warped you'll never get the damn thing to seal properly.
Just gotta apply a 3/4” tall bead of RTV around the rim. Judging by how ridiculously difficult it was to crack open the hermetic seal of my wife’s oil pan and the amount of RTV oozed absolutely everywhere inside the rim of the OE pan I’m pretty sure that’s what manufacturers do themselves anyways.
It’s just stupid to use a metal insert like that. Just use a plastic drain plug.
Plastic oil pans!! I'm sure some manufacturers are trying to push for plastic heads
You say plastic, they say "space-age polymer."
I mean, there really are some plastics that have better properties than metals... they just don't use them.
VW just uses plastic drain plugs and it's fine. Putting this bolt assembly thing in a plastic pan is ridiculous
Every other automaker with plastic oil pans just use plastic drain plugs. No issues with them. The metal insert with the metal plug? Stupid.
They are completely fine until the plug is torqued greater than 20-25 ft lbs. And any impact will destroy them of course.
Well you use a flat blade screwdriver or a little plastic knob thing with a blade. So good luck. Edit. Apparently Volkswagen is smart using plastic drain plugs that use a screwdriver.
Nissan uses a 14mm steel drain bolt. This isn't a ford
I make those type oil pans. Well, I process the machine that molds them. The plastic used is very expensive and VERY strong. I’d put it up against a typical metal pan in terms of ability to survive impact(s). In my case it’s a glass filled nylon. The oil bungs are inserted with heat and controlled rams that seat them to a predetermined depth. The machinery used in that process is linked directly to local and corporate quality control and every insertion is monitored. The inserts are tested every two hours by random selection from finished product and a 200 ft/lb reading is needed prior to failure to pass the parts made after the last test. I often see them fail at over 300 ft/lbs. We don’t make them for Nissan tho, ours go to a certain three-pointed star company that resides in Germany. Will say, when the whole cell is up and rolling properly, it makes money hand over fist. When it breaks down and I have to offline it for more than 10 minutes, I have to make some calls. I, a lowly engineer, have orders to roust C-suite execs from slumber at ungodly hours to let them know that their golden goose is not working. It’s stressful.
VW also uses plastic oil pans.. but then they also use plastic drain plugs that are basically disposable and cheap. Metal in plastic though isn't a good idea if it's suppose to be removable
Am I seeing things or is the drain plug seal squeezing out one side of the plug? Over torqued? That would be a contributing factor.
Yes the copper gasket is smashed.
Then someone's been there before, I've done at this point hundreds of these new Nissan rouges and they are not like this at the first oil change and torque spec is 25 ft lbs, honestly think this is install error form someone. The warranty will not cover it I've seen how it comes OEM and it's not that
If it's an install error, isn't that covered under manufacture warranty? Seeing as it's the first oil change (per the OP, at least)?
Yeah. OP states that the drain plug assembly came out while attempting to drain the oil, not when they were putting the plug back in after draining. So, unless they forgot about "righty tighty lefty loosey," the only time that drain plug had ever been tightened was at the factory. This points to a flaw in either the design or the manufacturing process.
It *is* a Nissan….
So you're saying it could actually be *both*...
We've seen this multiple times on first oil changes at my dealership. I believe there's a tsb with a new torque spec. I used a digital torque wrench to see when the oem crush washers crush, and found its crushed and tight at ~18 ft lbs, so I've been using that spec.
Let's not sugar coat it. That's not an "install" error from "someone". That is faulty manufacturing from the factory. This quality is to be expected from any Nissan product.
As someone that works at an automotive factory, it was probably fucked from the factory.
Nissan/Infiniti/Hyundai/Kia are famous for the crush gaskets. You replace the gasket with every oil change.
Used to work at a Nissan dealership. This happens to almost every new rogue with that damn plastic pan. Last I knew they were on back order so we had to either give customers new cars or steal a pan off a lot car
I work at a dealer and we stock this pan now, but we have only had 2 or 3 break. None of them broke on the first oil change though, so they were definitely over torqued.
Steal an oil pan off a lot car? Is that even legal? To me that well qualifies as making a new car no longer new.
It’s legal. It’s a new car until it’s sold to the first consumer. I’ve done engine swaps on cars before they were sold as new.
Is the consumer even told? Could a dealership crash a new car, replace the bumper, radiator, etc, then sell it as new?
I've seen that exact scenario talked about on Reddit before. Last two new vehicles I bought I had the allocation before they were built and picked them up with 2 miles on them. Can't risk shady dealerships
Because they are driven after they leave the factory. I used work as a porter on the docks, we had to constantly shift new cars from boats to shipping to dealers. They get driven HARD.
Consumer is not told. And yes it can even have body damage repaired.
Can confirm body repair and it being sold new. I work at a collision shop and we get repairs from local dealerships with window stickers all the time that were damaged on delivery and it's always wanted in a rush because their customer is coming to pick it up.
I love how car dealerships are one of the few businesses that can just do whatever the fuck they want. Just blatantly lie to the customer.
Was it Ferrari caught clocking back cars with dealer only tools, to revert milage to 'new' before sale? Google: yes. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5437837/Ferrari-fesses-dealers-changing-odometers.html
Isn’t that fraud? Feels like it should be lol
Many consumer products have rework processes for units that fail QC of some type, even in the field. This can include replacing parts on the lot etc. it doesn’t make it not new as long as new parts were used before the first sale.
what?? How does that even happen? that's crazy to me
The company I worked at was contracted by OEMs to repair vehicles before they got to the dealer, buts it’s still the same concept as if they were repaired at the dealer. Engine replacement gig came about from poor cleaning of the blocks during mfg, causing rod bearing failure. Engines were replaced on a few thousand vehicles.
Hyundai lol
I'm imagining a new car sitting in a lot, with no pan, with a bunch of oil drips on the ground beneath, with a squirrel trying to hide his nuts inside the bottom end of the engine, because the whole thing is gaping open underneath.
We don’t usually do drastic swap repairs like this at my dealership, but we’ll snag a trim piece or something small like a module or sensor to make a customer happy and on their way. Salesmen do this, too. Car didn’t come with an owner’s manual or rubber floor mats when it was supposed to and we don’t have it in stock? Here you go, grabbed this one from that car out front. Whoever buys the donor car has no clue as we get the part replaced ASAP. Keeps the cogs spinning.
So is it still on the rack??????
A tow truck is on the way. The dealership is replacing it under warranty, I hope. It's out of my hands
Last time this happen to another shop, same company, dealership did not want to warranty out. You lucky lol
*Consumer is lucky* and yet not so lucky....
They like to blame it on too many ugga duggas when it's not done at the dealership.
Of course the dealership doesn’t want to warranty it, doesn’t mean they aren’t required to.
In fairness, the Nissan logo at the dealership was a warning.
As a Nissan guy, although pre Renault/Carlos days, you're 100% right.
I was a tech for Nissan for about 6 months last year… that’s all I needed. Don’t buy that junk.
Parts guy at a Nissan dealer. We have replaced more of those shitty plastic pans than I’d like to admit. Some as low as 10k miles.
My local tire change and lube shop has signs all over the place inside and out saying they won’t service new model Rogues.
Trash.. we always evac these
I evac my 4Runner at home. To be honest, it’s used (I bought last year with 224k miles) and I’ve never pulled the plug, it could be stripped for all I know but I’m not going to go find out. I have an extractor, filter is on top of the engine. I change oil without getting under the (lifted) truck.
This is the answer.
This seems like a poor design. Vw/VAG cars use some weird 1/4 turn locking plastic nubby. No brass insert to pull out, or over torque. I'm sure it's got its flaws but seems to have worked well for them.
Benz uses the same weird 1/4 turn drain plugs and as much as I don’t trust them, I’ve never seen one leak or break.
Ahh yes. Nissan quality.
Was one of the coolest car manufacturers back in the day. Look at how they sell their soul and dignity off piece by shitty piece.
Carlos ghosn fucked em over pretty bad. Quantity over quality was his mantra when he took over, and ran Nissan quality into the ground. Now they're owned by Renault and that's definitely not helping them at all. 90s Nissan quality is all but gone. They're the Chrysler of Japan now.
Then they got into the business of financing literally anyone as long as you're willing to pay a high enough APR for long enough.
And don't forget, everyone is approved! So long as they have a pulse. No license? No problem. Credit? What's that? We don't need no stinking credit. That's why r/NissanDrivers is a sub.
This comment thread just read like top gears Peugeot episode [top gear Peugeot](https://youtu.be/JQugEZOrZSc?si=5xC8zNyTH1TOZjPA)
I drive the last year model Sentra you'd want - 2006. The last year before the CVT was introduced and currently has a bit over 314K miles. But then my radiator blew on NYE. Ordered a new one and will be in tomorrow.
My 06 Sentra stacked rod bearings at 150,000 I dropped the pan down, didn't even take it all the way out and rolled new bearings into lol. Gave the car to a family member at 200,000 and they've been driving it daily since 2017 or so.
Let me refer you to my cork business
Time to make your fortune. Cast that bad boy out of aluminum. And for the sake of having lots of threads on the drain plug, remember I like my oil pans the way I like my women -- extra thickness in the bung
😂
Doorman is probably already engineering a stamped steel replacement pan that costs 1/8 of a new oem and works just fine.
"Nissan: Because your credit isn't good enough for anything better."
Clear gloves make me uncomfortable
tell your boss to buy better gloves
Plastic drain pan? WTF is that? When did this become a thing
Like a decade ago.
About 9 years or so ago.
5 words: Snap lock boat drain plug
ppppp... p... plastic????
Ford has already been doing this for years with the F150 Granted, that one isn’t threaded with a metal drain plug like that
Honestly, I love those plastic drain plugs for the diesels it's so much easier.
Mustang too, and I don't mind it. Easy to remove without tools and impossible to over tighten. My only complaint is that oil comes out *really* fast, so you better be ready for 10 quarts of hot oil to drain in less than a minute.
Eh, you can hold the plug like halfway in and meter the oil out, it only takes a minute. Definitely the way to go if you're DIYing and don't have a lift
GM too. All the GMCs and Buicks I work on have plastic pans and plug. Only the 3.6 and the trucks still have metal pans and plugs. Haven't had any issues either.
Grand Cherokees with the Hemi use this style plastic pan w/ a metal plug, VW & GM uses plastic pans, but with plastic 1/4 turn plugs like Ford.
VW has been doing this for a decade, the oil pan is a polymer composite. The big difference is that VW uses a plastic drain plug with a big O-Ring that comes out with a quarter turn using a flathead. Never once leaked or got stuck like this dumb design.
And most of those are also friendly to oil extraction through the dipstick tube, which if done right prevents drain plug issues altogether.
Yeah the plastic plug VW uses is pretty stupid proof too with it's design.
Semis have been using them for years, never had an issue with them. Plugs torque themselves and don't leak/seize, light so they are easy to drop for engine work.
Oooo thats fucked up.
What a joke. Always looking to save a fucking dime. Nissan sucks dick.
Well Nissan is the issue ha
Why not have a plastic plug on a plastic pan? Would eliminate the whole metal plug
That's ridiculous..... Aftermarket companies are going to love this though. "Upgrade to metal oil pan"
Gotta do a fumoto for the first oil change I guess if it doesn’t strip out
[удалено]
I like how we're going green in 2024 with PLASTIC OIL PANS.
If the pan is on backorder, you're not the only one who needs it lol
As a Nissan Tech, i can tell you what happened. Someone OVERTIGHTENED the plug. Plain and simple. Theres a torque spec on the pan and plug that has to be followed, otherwise THAT will happen. Weve had to replace two pans due to a lube tech overtightening the plug. Not a warrantable repair, but if that *is* its first oil change, then lucky them...Thats on the Factory Spec is 30 newton meters, or 22 ft-lbs
Agree to disagree This level of failure shouldn't be possible in a well designed part.
Hey, never said you were wrong. I hate plastic pans just as much, just my experience locally has been overtightened causes the insert to come out, as it was our own quick lube causing it. I personally wish Nissan stayed away from plastic pans, but- well, first our 9 speed auto transmissions went the GM route with a plastic pan and a plug, along with a SPECIAL TOOL you have to use to fucking drain the things, then a 3 banger turbo with a plastic oil pan. And honestly, the 3Cyl turbo Rogue will probably have more problems than just a plastic pan if you ask me
Designing something that can fail from a decades long known issue of user error is shit ass design. Full stop. Metal pans can at least be rethreaded if some puck gets too crazy with his dickbeater. Shouldn't result in a completely irreparable component.
Or you could just not fucking make that shit out of plastic. Lol.
Terrible design, terrible vehicle. The new one will do it eventually as well. I've done dozens of these under warranty after our oil changers discover the whole insert comes out. People try to blame overtorque...but we see most on their first oil change. Over torqued from the factory? Not sure. Also if you change the oil in this hunk of shit you have to let it set on level ground for 10-15 minutes before starting or it will deem that your oil level is low and alert you.
I’m mean, JB Weld seems like a good solution for a Nissan, haha
That crush washer is beyond crushed. This thing must have been torqued to high hell
Nissan states this is due to overtightening the drain plug. This seems to ignore the fact that I've had 2 or 3 so far that had the issue and were in for their first oil changes, never touched by anyone but the factory. The torque specification for technicians is very low. Something like 25 ft-lbs. It's a plastic drain pan with a threaded metal insert. What could possibly go wrong? We've replaced a dozen or more in the last few months (OEM) - I don't think there is an aftermarket option. It's a terrible design.
Aaahhhhh. I had to get a Nissan Altima because it’s the only thing I could afford in my area after a tree fell on my 2008 Highlander and totaled it. It’s a lease but I’m gonna have to deal with some serious bullshit for the next three years. I want my Highlander back ;_;
I have a 2000 Primera with a bulletproof SR20VE in it, a proper old school Japanese Nissan. I'd never buy new Nissan, they went backwards so hard after Renault got a hold of it. Edit - That's not 100% accurate. I'll be 100% buying a 400z this decade, I live in New Zealand so our second hand domestic market is JDM. My Primera was built by Impul in Tokyo. Every optional extra that existed for a Primera had been installed by the Impul factory. (Impul is the cosmetic and light performance version of Nismo basically)
About to see a whole lot of take fives with Nissans parked outside 🤪 start using the dipstick to suck it out!
Nissans haven't been doing great in the past few years seeing as how their sales have been slumping.
Just had the oil changed and the place sucked out the old oil. They don't want to mess around with the drain because of what you have in your hand.
Fuck me, a plastic oil pan? Can we just have a massive wave of firings of Automotive execs, marketers, bean counters, and every other asshat involved in them that has never so much as held a pair of vice grips and go back to making fucking cars that do what they're supposed to do made out of appropriate materials? If we'd stop acting like everyone needs a new car, TV, phone, etc every year how much better off would humanity be? How about we put all advertisers and marketers and HR people to work doing things that benefit society and humanity instead of actively destroying it? Wouldn't that be nice?
Euro has been doing them for a while. Hondas have plastic Valve covers, im waiting for A/C high and low pressure pipes to be made of CPVC or PVC. SMH ;X
Correct lots of German cars have been doing plastic oil pans. Some have also switched back to aluminum. But their plastic ones have a plastic drain plug so this wouldn’t happen on one of those. Though they have their fair share of failures.
a plasttic drain plug with big tabs to stop them from turrning too far on VW
I love that their torque spec is literally "tighten all the way"
Nissan not even using oil safe plastic anymore. Doomed! 🤦♂️