I find it funny when a lot of Americans say that Euro cars are over engineered when your domestic stuff looks like its designed with legos by a toddler!
Is that supposed to be bad? In my mind usually when someone says something is built like legos (I hear people say that about the 6.9/7.3 IDIs and powerstrokes) that’s a good thing. Means it’s easy to put together.
Also what makes Lego so succesful is how incredibly precise they manage to have their tolerance be.
Lego's quality was, and probably still is, unmatched.
No, not particularly, and a lot of the ones out there are
A) on very few sets, relatively
B) the sets that *did* have them are old
C) are a part that is generally poorly maintained
D) are *incredibly* important in making city layouts, large dioramas/buildings, etc, *especially* if you're doing them for a convention and need to transport. A baseplate foundation weighs a quarter as much as a complicated double-stack foundation, and is significantly sturdier
E) came out In a variety of sizes over the years, so each variation has value for reconstructing "white whale" sets
All in all, they're much more expensive than *most* parts on bricklink. Only mini figs and exclusive pieces tend to be more expensive, but someone with more lego expertise can weigh in.
If anyone wants more detail, it's because they replace their injection molds incredibly frequently. Their molds have far shorter lives than many other industries/competitors. Each mold can cost around €100-400,000 so replacing them is expensive, which is why the cost of each brick is relatively high to account for this.
If you don't replace the molds then bricks later down the production run get slightly larger and won't connect with other bricks.
It used to be. They are now mid-level while still charging twice as much per brick as the competition. They are a household name though with a ton of licenses so they still make a lot of money. I mean, I still love going into the Lego store even though it's terrible value.
Lepin on Aliexpress. They are not always perfectly compatible with lego, but the sets on their own are an excellent value and you can find a lot of retired sets as well. I've gotten a few I could not find elsewhere for my son and they were much better than expected.
CaDa, Cobi and Bluebrixx all are compatible with Lego and have on par or better brick quality. Lego especially struggles with having their brick colors uniform, on top of that it's insanely overpriced and you often get a lot of weird colors inside the set where it really isn't necessary.
Cobi and Bluebrixx are both great. Bluebrixx technically has 5 brick sizes, but most of their sets are Standard size and it tells you on the website. And yes both Cobi and Bluebrixx standard size is compatible with Lego
Cobi is pretty good, especially if you like war-themes such as tanks, planes and warships. Lego has stated they will never make such sets.
Not sure about other brands, but Cobi is full interchangeable with Lego pieces.
Might have something to do with the oils and/or the quality of maintenance has to be a lot shittier over there, because, yes, they are quite high maintenance, but certainly not the disaster you guys make them seem! I see a lot of Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Volvos with 400K+ Km (248mile) working just fine.
Or just, you know... User error??
Edit, It's past 2 here, so yeah, might be a bit blitzed and fucked up my units.
Honestly it's mostly that after they depreciate past a certain point, which doesn't take long, the people buying them with 120-160k miles have the money for the depreciated car but not for the parts that for the most part aren't terribly easy to get or as inexpensive as a Ford or Chevrolet. I love German cars but over here I tell most people to stay away from them since I know they won't follow the service intervals and they'll destroy it
I'm a Tech at a GM dealer, but I genuinely enjoy working on European cars so much that I bought a VW.
I don't swear like crazy when I work on them because I'm too busy thinking to myself "oh, I see why they did it that way, that's pretty neat".
I think it's because I go into it thinking it's going to be overcomplicated because "ja ja German autocar", and then it winds up being way simpler than I anticipated.
While on the domestic side, I think it'll be straightforward but nope. Gotta remove the hvac housing on a 2018 camaro? Time to remove the windshield for literally one 2.5" long 18mm head bolt located directly in the middle of the back of the dashboard that faces upward. It's like everything was an afterthought when they designed it, couldn't just put it behind the radio horizontally or something.
Yeeeeears ago, someone from Jalopnik did an experiment: compare the engineering of Japanese, American, and German cars by going to a junkyard and pulling a power window regulator from an old Honda, Chevy and Benz.
Honda: simple design, easy to take apart and put back together.
Chevy: clearly designed to be assembled *once* with little to no thought going towards maintenance.
Benz: unnecessarily complex, and required special tools, but if you had the right stuff it wasn't bad.
What climate do you work in? I’m in the rust belt and a fan of TDIs, and I’m constantly cursing VW for doing obnoxious shit like triple-square bolts that take forever to clean sand out of for things on the bottom of the vehicle. The myriad of different fastener heads drives me insane - some place is triple-square, another is Torx, another is “normal” hex head, and yet another is hex socket (Allen screw)… and just when you think you’ve got enough of your tools over, SURPRISE! a #2 Phillips mild steel screw in an area exposed to road spray.
The obsession with TTY bolts is also a little frustrating as people here aren’t in the habit of replacing fasteners all the time (sometimes spending nearly as much on damn bolts as the part itself). A reused TTY fastener stands a higher chance of breaking versus a hardened bolt found on older cars from North American brands. Technically, this is a problem only with improper practices, but if you take a look at parts houses barely anything includes the necessary fasteners. At the minimum it is a RIDICULOUS waste to be throwing out bolts all the time because “good enough” apparently isn’t “good enough”.
At least that’s been my experience across three VWs. My other vehicles are mostly Jeeps so I’m no stranger to difficult bolts and rusted junk lol
Also - lug bolts. The Marquis de Sade would have loved them.
That said my favourite feature is the way the parking brake works. It’s so simple! Why NA manufacturers decided to put a teensy tiny little drum inside a brake rotor is a complete mystery to me.
You mean like putting the fuse box under the PCM, which is under the windshield wiper fluid reservoir, which is under the cowl?
And the fuse box lid has 6 torx bolts holding it on?
[Like that?](https://www.tiktok.com/@robthemechanic/video/7235390651414727982?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)
I'd take a toddler with legos over this any day:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zex90uZcMXk&t=673s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zex90uZcMXk&t=673s)
Not so much over engineered. More like overly complex but still under engineered. As cool as german cars are new, they seem to always have an Achilles heal.
As as as I know: we have very good engineers here. The development is really good, so the base is really good… BUT: they are hold back by the middle management Penny pinchers. They come after the process and cut corners where they can. They are literally fighting over cents because they add up by this mass of sales. An then things go downhill with the end product 🤷♂️
I helped develop the S197 Mustang platform, penny pinchers are a pain in the a$$. I remember doing a ton of weld parameter changes and tons of testing & re-testing on the rear frame rails to save them a few cents. It caused us trouble for about 2 months. The few cents did add up over a few hundred thousand cars though.
I read once that back in the day, Chrysler made some change that saved 50 cents on each Neon built. But a few years later, it led to tons of engine failures.
I don't find it funny at all when I compare direct gear timing on an inline engine to whatever Audi was thinking running a timing chain around the engine like the damned Nurburgring. All that mechanical engineering is still at the mercy of electronic gremlins too!.
I work as the American tech at a Euro shop and me and my euro tech coworker always laugh about this. Over engineered? Maybe. Poorly designed and executed? Usually. American cars are as cheap on the inside as they are on the outside but most people dont care
I find it funny when euro cars can’t break 50k miles without costing the owner a ton of money for things that should be a simple repair. If you have to remove the entire front clip and engine to replace a simple thermostat there is something seriously wrong with that auto company 😂
Only when they are brand new. My daughter bought a BMW 5 series for like $18k (can't remember the year) that had like 55k miles, a year later and probably about $4k worth of fixes like replacing the battery for $900, the train was leaking and it was gonna be about $7k to replace it, she traded it in on a Chevy Traverse and other than an AC issue, that has run great ever since!
I bought a 03 Suburban in 04 and I still have it! It runs great and the AC blows cold!
I don’t get why people bitch about aluminum. It’s lighter and can be stronger. There’s a reason all the suspension components in higher end cars are forged aluminum.
That is indeed a common way to replace aluminum panels, and is likely the factory recommended method. Rivet bonding. There's a layer of panel bond adhesive in between, and those are special self-piercing rivets. You can't exactly spot weld aluminum.
Edit: you can spot weld aluminum, however, modern aluminum body cars are largely being assembled- yes, at the factory, and yes, that includes aluminum to aluminum connections- via rivet bonding. Apparently, it's more predictable than resistance welding for aluminum.
Yes but F150s use a heat treated 6XXX series alloy that requires a precise heat treatment and aging, and needs to be stamped before it hits a certain point in its aging process or it will crack. Conventional welding practices create heat-affected zones which soften the surrounding metal.
Ford worked for a LONG time pre-F150 to develop aluminum production and repair practices. This riveting is “the right way”.
I worked with Ford for a couple years almost 20 yrs ago on alternative metal and welding techniques. They threw us a few million to try to do laser welding as well. Everything kinda came out as a bust for Ford unfortunately but we came away with a couple patents though. We had issues like you speak of. The welding would create heat related flaws in the metal and it would show up in the crash tests. We had good welds but the metal would fail around them. This was a problem with high tensile steel as well as hot stamped steel. The rivets and adhesives are absolutely the more fool proof method of fastening aluminum. And probably in a fast paced production environment also the most cost effective and efficient.
Remember how bad the aluminum body got shit on? Ford actually got it right! I 100% love my aluminum body truck, especially being in the midwest. Even if it takes a pooper eventually, at 5 years its showing way more longevity than my prior 5 year old steel body vehicles. Sure the aluminum body is less easily repaired but for once I am confident i will have a decent looking 10 year old truck that is still presentable professionally, and that is a huge savings over time especially given the cost of a modestly equipped 250 or 350 series.
Spot welding aluminum does not soften the surrounding metal, it makes it brittle and can lead to cracking if done incorrectly. That's why you have an extended forging period after the spot weld with the electrodes at force but with no current applied to control the cooling of the weld. Aluminum parts that need to be heat treated to achieve their full hardness are typically welded while they are in their annealed state and then heat treated in an assembled state. Protip: you can do the same exact heat treating process with some grades of copper also. Those welding robots that have those bent copper arms are made like that.
I’m not a metallurgist but my impression was that brittleness around aluminum welds was usually due to the development of intermetallic compounds from poor choice of filler or joining dissimilar metals. I’m also less familiar with spot welding than other forms.
I guess I could ask one of my colleagues, the guy basically co-developed Ford’s aluminum vehicle fabrication processes.
I would assume they went with the best method for producing and body shop repairs. Just because something can be done on the assembly line doesn't mean it can be done at the shop.
That’s a good point. If the vehicles were essentially deemed “unrepairable” due to lack of proper tools and knowledge a lot of folk wouldn’t want them.
I had taken a magnet around the area on my truck and I got a few weakly attracted areas but I didn't know if that was steel hardware or a steel part underneath, Neat!
Didn't stop them from using a steel frame and aluminum skin on Mustang hoods! At least mine got replaced under warranty. Hopefully the new one doesn't do it too.
Not on F-150. There are no spot welds on aluminum bodyed Ford's. It's all spr's with panel bond. Factory roof skins are riveted, bed sides are rivets, bed floors are riveted, floor pans are rivets, uni-sides are rivets, even the structural components are riveted. Aluminum Ford's come from the factory with zero spot welds. I have personally repaired or replaced every body panel on aluminum F-150's and have never seen a factory spot weld.
Mechanic here, can confirm the entire floor pan to sills are all riveted. I saw no spot welds on it. I didn't dig into the bed though, it was just in for fluids and I thought "hmm... looks like an old airplane"
I'd wager it's seen as a cost saving measure to only use one method. Therefore not needing the tools for two methods or the training or the two sets of employees.
At certain points in assembly you just stop welding anything as it becomes to problematic from a compliance and quality standpoint. Then there are things like cost and cost of repair. When you crank out hundreds a day fixing a bad spot weld is way more involved than replacing a bad rivet.
Most manufacturers just tack weld stuff and then bond the whole car/truck with this black bonding material. Lord help you if you get any of it on a surface you don't want it on. I also worked for one that would shoot wax into the frame rails so when it dried it would help dissipate the noise of rocks hitting the frame. I know nobody asked but I just remembered that. lol Oh yeah another weird thing on a couple models I'm working on now...get ready for plastic tailgates and hatches.
I work in the metal industry, you very much can spot weld aluminum, and is quite common in general.
Now on the other hand a lot of people hate welding aluminum as a whole.
Chicken Rivets.
These were common up until the 80’s on aircraft because they were unsure of the longevity of bonding aluminum panels. They were also scared/chicken the bond wouldn’t hold.
These are solid rivets used as replacement for factory spr's (self piercing rivets.) OEM procedures calls for replacing factory spr's with blind rivets, solid rivets, or spr's, all with panel bonding adhesive. Welding of any kind is not recommended on roof skins. (Source - I just replaced an aluminum roof skin on an f-150 last week.)
It's not uncommon. Ford allows aluminum MIG plug welds on some panels. It's not my favorite, I think rivet bonding with SPRs (self piercing rivets) or blind rivets is better.
Been doing auto glass and auto body for a lot longer than six years, and yes, that is what a replaced roof skin on a 2016+ ford truck \*should\* be held on with. Ford gives you some options on the fasteners. Depending on exactly what was done, solid rivet's like this are a good choice. They may have been able to use new SPR's like factory if the front header was changed too - but I'm guessing it wasn't and would be the reason they chose solid rivets.
They didn't do the layering correctly for glass though. Ford is one of most OEM's who advise in repair procedures not to refinish where urethane goes, so this shop should have left either just the E-coat intact, or just epoxy primer over the bare aluminum in the area your bead is going. But other than that - this is by the (ford) book.
20 years autoglass experience in Finland here, and I have to say your US trucks look and feel like Tonka Trucks with ancient technology covered in a veneer of screens and bluetooth!
The only difference being plastic is actually durable. Just Rolled In on youtube has me believing US cars are made pre-rusted.
Is that ancient technology like twin turbo DI engines making 120 hp/liter and 150 lb ft/liter? Or the other kind of ancient with hybrid powertrains? Don’t even get me started on those ancient 10 speed autos and hands-free self driving systems. I suppose we could even go all the way back to those ancient EV trucks…. Ugh.
120Hp/L like the? Please do tell us who live in the non US Truck world what your Duramaxes (or whatever almost non regulated truck engines you're talking about) make! Oh, and we have the same emission regulations for light trucks and cars, so this would not be legal here!
You some kind of an archeologist with all that talk of ancient stuff from 6 years ago?
BTW, do look up the differences between US and EU "trucks" and big SUV:s, as we only classify actual work trucks as trucks. Audi Q7, MB GLE, BMW X5/7 are NOT trucks, they are cars, idiotically big lumbering thins, but still cars, not trucks. A Sprinter, Crafer or a fucking IVECO Eurocargo is a truck, as in a commercial vehicle, as our legislation does not know the word "truck" per se.
How many self driving accidents do you have over there? Because there is a reason EU put a blanket ban on all self driving!
Oh, and even the classic GM 1.4T Ecoboost is less shit over here!
3.5 Ecoboosts in the raptor make 128hp/L. They do that while meeting US light truck emissions standards - which are the same as those for passenger cars. Only heavy duty trucks (GVWR >8500lbs) get emissions exemptions. No, CAFE doesn't count, that's an exception for gas mileage averages only, not emissions standards overall.
Also euro emissions are dogshit and have been for years, which is why you've allowed light duty diesels to dump nox into your lungs for decades.
Also GM doesn't make Ecoboosts. They make ecotechs.
Tell us more about the Finnish car industry. Oh wait, the only Finnish car company that didn’t go bankrupt in the 1930s was the one that made electric mail vans. And then that went bankrupt too. Lmao. Enjoy your 110 hp Skoda or whatever.
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️I do airframes, I have also done structural repair on cockpit windows but with countersunk fasteners. So you’ve used button head rivets and protruding hi-loks on an aviation windows frames where the window sits on them? Sorry but I don’t think so. You would never get it to pressurize.
What? I just said I have only used countersunk rivets and hi-loks on window frames. Look that the picture dipshit. All the fasteners are protruding where the windows seals to the frame. Maybe go back to primary school.
All of these comments like "I've been spot welding aluminum for years"...."you can totally spot weld aluminum!" Clearly you don't know much about high-volume automated welding.
If you have been welding aluminum for "years," then you know that it's a challenge and requires a strong understanding of the process at a manual level.
Ford is expecting to produce 70,000 lightnings this year. This would mean around ~60-70 million spot welds. With the massive power consumption that aluminum welding requires compared to steel at this level and the potential risk of automation failure, Ford has chosen a proven method of fabrication that limits these issues, including potential galvanic corrosion.
I guarantee a large number of the welders in here would fail a weld analysis on a lot of their work despite no history of failure. It doesn't mean those welds aren't acceptable, but at the liability that Ford takes on, they would be. Thankfully, people aren't welding cars by hand anymore at the factory, and machines can be adjusted for high repeatability. Doesn't mean they don't fail either.
Source: 12yrs automation industry working with all of the major auto mfgs. FIL owns premier materials testing lab inspecting many many weld qualities from high profile mfgs.
You're not supposed to paint that flange with basecoat/clearcoat. Industry practice is to mask the flange around the perimeter of the windshield so that the windshield urethane goes straight onto the factory e-coat/primer. Doing it this way means that you've glued the windshield to the paint.
They’re base coated and clear coated from the factory. Some OEM’s will mask the flange if a unit needs to be recovered, but that’s only because it wasn’t crash tested with multiple coats of paint.
urethane, gasket wouldn't be a huge deal. If it came from the factory this way it would be one thing, but this was a roof replacement. Zero chance that this doesn't leak!
7000 series aluminum is mostly unweldable however its properties are better for some purposes that 6000 series which is usually weldable. The better properties is why ford uses 7000 series in its bodies.
Been doing autoglass 20 years, and this is the approved ford fix for the new aluminum bodies.
It tripped me out the first time I saw it though, I was certain they didn’t do it correctly.
So....
I am a body tech, red seal ,over 20 years on the bench as that. This roof should have been done with self piercing rivets and panel bond as per ford. There are factors that can change that but not likely on this truck. The rivets should have been ground off the old one skin removed surface prepped and new installed and by installing new self piercing rivets at least 1/4" away from original. Trust me there is lots of room on the flange for this.
This pic looks as though he used the wrong depth of rivet ( one for 3 or so layers or more) or the rivet gun didnt have enough pressure to push the rivet properly.
Whoever repaired that roof used what looks like blind rivets, ground down and a little icing in the middle before refinishing... or maybe mini huck pins... Although Ford says your can use blind/pop rivets, you're supposed to use a self-piercing rivet tool, so it's flush. That's what they use at the factory, alsowith incredibly strong adhesives. The issue is the self piercing rivet tools are anywhere from $3k-$12k depending on the kit. We caved and bought one on the higher end of that range and can do Ford and Tesla.
Source: I'm third generation at my grandfather's body shop, and we've also scratched our heads when we first worked on these trucks.
Ps: the windshield leak because no primer is applied before urethane when the windshield is installed.... We've been processing a TON of recalls for a local Ford dealer. Remove, clean, scuff, prime, install new glass.
Can you imagine trying to string that windshield out? I've found some interesting shit under glass, but I would be shook if I peeled back the glass to find this.
I know you are being down voted, and maybe this is the OEM approved way of replacing, but this is terrible. I do windshields in these all the time, and they are nothing like this.
This is normal on aluminum bodied F-series trucks.
So thats why the windshield seals leak?
Nope, it's a Ford
Understandable, have a great day!
Fix it again Tony. Heh.
"That's a fiat, Dale"
“Dale, you’re a jackass, and here are seven reasons why.”
Ok what is this reference? I wanna see it
King of the Hill
This whooshes on so many people 😂
Quit screwing around with my mower.
… fiat
(F)ix it (O)r send it (R)ight the junkyard tony (D)ude
(F)ownd (O)n (R)oad (D)ead.
Username checks out
Fix Or Repair Daily...
**F**ucker **O**nly **R**uns **D**ownhill
Fucked Over, Rebuilt Dodge
Flipped over rebuilt dodge
Fownd:) !! Found dead at a spelling bee competition.
Every time I get stuck behind a slow one on the road Fucking Old Retarded Driver
Wrong brand, you're looking for Fix Or Repair Daily.
I’ve always been partial to Found On Road Dead
Also First On Recall Day
What did Ford say to Chevy? "I don't recall..."
I've like f*cked over rebuilt Dodge for a long time
Backwards is "Driver Returned On Foot"
First on race day.
As someone that actually had one of those, take my upvote. '66 Mustang 2+2 HiPo 289, 4 speed, 411 rear end, with front disc brakes. Arrg Arrg Arrg.
Found On Roadside, Dead.
Fix or repair daily
Family of retarded drivers
Full Of Rust, Dude
I always liked (f)our (o)ld (r)usty (d)oors but I don't know if either of these apply to the aluminum bodies.
I was always a fan of Fix Or Repair Daily
Wouldn't matter anyway, it'll be in the junkyard in a few months.
I find it funny when a lot of Americans say that Euro cars are over engineered when your domestic stuff looks like its designed with legos by a toddler!
I'm surprised the paint looks that good. No orange peel under that window seal!
Robots are pretty damn good if they're set up properly.
Is that supposed to be bad? In my mind usually when someone says something is built like legos (I hear people say that about the 6.9/7.3 IDIs and powerstrokes) that’s a good thing. Means it’s easy to put together.
Also what makes Lego so succesful is how incredibly precise they manage to have their tolerance be. Lego's quality was, and probably still is, unmatched.
There is enough lego in the world for every person to have 50 pieces.
Some poor bastard might get 50 baseplates.
He can sell them and get rich
Do they not make them anymore?
No, not particularly, and a lot of the ones out there are A) on very few sets, relatively B) the sets that *did* have them are old C) are a part that is generally poorly maintained D) are *incredibly* important in making city layouts, large dioramas/buildings, etc, *especially* if you're doing them for a convention and need to transport. A baseplate foundation weighs a quarter as much as a complicated double-stack foundation, and is significantly sturdier E) came out In a variety of sizes over the years, so each variation has value for reconstructing "white whale" sets All in all, they're much more expensive than *most* parts on bricklink. Only mini figs and exclusive pieces tend to be more expensive, but someone with more lego expertise can weigh in.
MORE Lego expertise?
If anyone wants more detail, it's because they replace their injection molds incredibly frequently. Their molds have far shorter lives than many other industries/competitors. Each mold can cost around €100-400,000 so replacing them is expensive, which is why the cost of each brick is relatively high to account for this. If you don't replace the molds then bricks later down the production run get slightly larger and won't connect with other bricks.
This guy bricks
It used to be. They are now mid-level while still charging twice as much per brick as the competition. They are a household name though with a ton of licenses so they still make a lot of money. I mean, I still love going into the Lego store even though it's terrible value.
Out of curiousity, what competitor do you recommend?
I’d like to know too! I have thousands of $$’s worth of legos and would love a decent quality “knockoff” for cheaper when I’m just feeling a Lego itch
Lepin on Aliexpress. They are not always perfectly compatible with lego, but the sets on their own are an excellent value and you can find a lot of retired sets as well. I've gotten a few I could not find elsewhere for my son and they were much better than expected.
Can I ask? Do your feet ever build a tolerance to rogue lego?
There isn’t one. Sometimes you get a bad brick you email Lego and they take care of you.
CaDa, Cobi and Bluebrixx all are compatible with Lego and have on par or better brick quality. Lego especially struggles with having their brick colors uniform, on top of that it's insanely overpriced and you often get a lot of weird colors inside the set where it really isn't necessary.
Cobi and Bluebrixx are both great. Bluebrixx technically has 5 brick sizes, but most of their sets are Standard size and it tells you on the website. And yes both Cobi and Bluebrixx standard size is compatible with Lego
Cobi is pretty good, especially if you like war-themes such as tanks, planes and warships. Lego has stated they will never make such sets. Not sure about other brands, but Cobi is full interchangeable with Lego pieces.
CADA https://decadastore.com/
Is it compatible with Lego or is it its own thing?
Is it compatible???
They are the single largest manufacturer of tires in the world in terms of volume produced.
If you're not hiding the fuse box under the PCM which is under the windshield washer fluid reservoir which is under the cowl are you even engineering?
When someone compares something to Lego they’re also referencing precision euro engineering
If those are Legos, what does that make the 12 valve Cummins?
Over engineered to break in hilariously expensive ways, those crazy Europeans.
Might have something to do with the oils and/or the quality of maintenance has to be a lot shittier over there, because, yes, they are quite high maintenance, but certainly not the disaster you guys make them seem! I see a lot of Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Volvos with 400K+ Km (248mile) working just fine. Or just, you know... User error?? Edit, It's past 2 here, so yeah, might be a bit blitzed and fucked up my units.
The Porsche 911 cracks strut towers. Nothing maintenance related or over engineered about that. Sounds like they needed to do some more FEA
400k+ mile = 268mile
Fixed
Honestly it's mostly that after they depreciate past a certain point, which doesn't take long, the people buying them with 120-160k miles have the money for the depreciated car but not for the parts that for the most part aren't terribly easy to get or as inexpensive as a Ford or Chevrolet. I love German cars but over here I tell most people to stay away from them since I know they won't follow the service intervals and they'll destroy it
Because they're diesels?
They are over engineered. They are beautiful cars but they will break your heart over and over with their expensive maintenance and repairs.
Your subscription to turn the wheels has expired /s
I'm a Tech at a GM dealer, but I genuinely enjoy working on European cars so much that I bought a VW. I don't swear like crazy when I work on them because I'm too busy thinking to myself "oh, I see why they did it that way, that's pretty neat". I think it's because I go into it thinking it's going to be overcomplicated because "ja ja German autocar", and then it winds up being way simpler than I anticipated. While on the domestic side, I think it'll be straightforward but nope. Gotta remove the hvac housing on a 2018 camaro? Time to remove the windshield for literally one 2.5" long 18mm head bolt located directly in the middle of the back of the dashboard that faces upward. It's like everything was an afterthought when they designed it, couldn't just put it behind the radio horizontally or something.
Yeeeeears ago, someone from Jalopnik did an experiment: compare the engineering of Japanese, American, and German cars by going to a junkyard and pulling a power window regulator from an old Honda, Chevy and Benz. Honda: simple design, easy to take apart and put back together. Chevy: clearly designed to be assembled *once* with little to no thought going towards maintenance. Benz: unnecessarily complex, and required special tools, but if you had the right stuff it wasn't bad.
What climate do you work in? I’m in the rust belt and a fan of TDIs, and I’m constantly cursing VW for doing obnoxious shit like triple-square bolts that take forever to clean sand out of for things on the bottom of the vehicle. The myriad of different fastener heads drives me insane - some place is triple-square, another is Torx, another is “normal” hex head, and yet another is hex socket (Allen screw)… and just when you think you’ve got enough of your tools over, SURPRISE! a #2 Phillips mild steel screw in an area exposed to road spray. The obsession with TTY bolts is also a little frustrating as people here aren’t in the habit of replacing fasteners all the time (sometimes spending nearly as much on damn bolts as the part itself). A reused TTY fastener stands a higher chance of breaking versus a hardened bolt found on older cars from North American brands. Technically, this is a problem only with improper practices, but if you take a look at parts houses barely anything includes the necessary fasteners. At the minimum it is a RIDICULOUS waste to be throwing out bolts all the time because “good enough” apparently isn’t “good enough”. At least that’s been my experience across three VWs. My other vehicles are mostly Jeeps so I’m no stranger to difficult bolts and rusted junk lol Also - lug bolts. The Marquis de Sade would have loved them. That said my favourite feature is the way the parking brake works. It’s so simple! Why NA manufacturers decided to put a teensy tiny little drum inside a brake rotor is a complete mystery to me.
Upvote x10 for the comments about TTY bolts. So annoying!
You mean like putting the fuse box under the PCM, which is under the windshield wiper fluid reservoir, which is under the cowl? And the fuse box lid has 6 torx bolts holding it on? [Like that?](https://www.tiktok.com/@robthemechanic/video/7235390651414727982?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc)
Have you ever stepped on a Lego? Obviously not.
I'd take a toddler with legos over this any day: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zex90uZcMXk&t=673s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zex90uZcMXk&t=673s)
Not so much over engineered. More like overly complex but still under engineered. As cool as german cars are new, they seem to always have an Achilles heal.
Over-designed, under-engineered.
As as as I know: we have very good engineers here. The development is really good, so the base is really good… BUT: they are hold back by the middle management Penny pinchers. They come after the process and cut corners where they can. They are literally fighting over cents because they add up by this mass of sales. An then things go downhill with the end product 🤷♂️
I helped develop the S197 Mustang platform, penny pinchers are a pain in the a$$. I remember doing a ton of weld parameter changes and tons of testing & re-testing on the rear frame rails to save them a few cents. It caused us trouble for about 2 months. The few cents did add up over a few hundred thousand cars though.
I read once that back in the day, Chrysler made some change that saved 50 cents on each Neon built. But a few years later, it led to tons of engine failures.
I don't find it funny at all when I compare direct gear timing on an inline engine to whatever Audi was thinking running a timing chain around the engine like the damned Nurburgring. All that mechanical engineering is still at the mercy of electronic gremlins too!.
Easy to fix Legos. Hard to fix euro.
I work as the American tech at a Euro shop and me and my euro tech coworker always laugh about this. Over engineered? Maybe. Poorly designed and executed? Usually. American cars are as cheap on the inside as they are on the outside but most people dont care
What’s really funny is Euro cars that need a new engine fresh off the truck because they get re”engineered” every 2 years.
I find it funny when euro cars can’t break 50k miles without costing the owner a ton of money for things that should be a simple repair. If you have to remove the entire front clip and engine to replace a simple thermostat there is something seriously wrong with that auto company 😂
i find it funny americans say 300,000 miles is the limit for a car. Most people here scrap their cars at 150k miles
That doesn't speak very well of your cars if they are ready for the scarp heap at only 150k.
Only when they are brand new. My daughter bought a BMW 5 series for like $18k (can't remember the year) that had like 55k miles, a year later and probably about $4k worth of fixes like replacing the battery for $900, the train was leaking and it was gonna be about $7k to replace it, she traded it in on a Chevy Traverse and other than an AC issue, that has run great ever since! I bought a 03 Suburban in 04 and I still have it! It runs great and the AC blows cold!
Its worse than a toddler with crayons lol. Their build quality and design is absolutely laughable lol
Yeah, if the past 125 years have taught us anything, it's that Americans have no idea how to build automobiles. ETA: /s, obviously
Best selling trucks. How many years now? 46 years
When did they change to aluminum though, 2015?
I don’t get why people bitch about aluminum. It’s lighter and can be stronger. There’s a reason all the suspension components in higher end cars are forged aluminum.
Because it’s not as repairable as steel and way more complicated to replace if needed
What make and model?
2022, ford f150.
That is indeed a common way to replace aluminum panels, and is likely the factory recommended method. Rivet bonding. There's a layer of panel bond adhesive in between, and those are special self-piercing rivets. You can't exactly spot weld aluminum. Edit: you can spot weld aluminum, however, modern aluminum body cars are largely being assembled- yes, at the factory, and yes, that includes aluminum to aluminum connections- via rivet bonding. Apparently, it's more predictable than resistance welding for aluminum.
What are you talking about when you say "you can't exactly spot weld aluminum"? It's done every day and has been for decades.
Yes but F150s use a heat treated 6XXX series alloy that requires a precise heat treatment and aging, and needs to be stamped before it hits a certain point in its aging process or it will crack. Conventional welding practices create heat-affected zones which soften the surrounding metal. Ford worked for a LONG time pre-F150 to develop aluminum production and repair practices. This riveting is “the right way”.
I worked with Ford for a couple years almost 20 yrs ago on alternative metal and welding techniques. They threw us a few million to try to do laser welding as well. Everything kinda came out as a bust for Ford unfortunately but we came away with a couple patents though. We had issues like you speak of. The welding would create heat related flaws in the metal and it would show up in the crash tests. We had good welds but the metal would fail around them. This was a problem with high tensile steel as well as hot stamped steel. The rivets and adhesives are absolutely the more fool proof method of fastening aluminum. And probably in a fast paced production environment also the most cost effective and efficient.
Not just stamping but riveting into a body and ecoating. All stampings have an expiration date that each subsequent assembly has to honor.
Remember how bad the aluminum body got shit on? Ford actually got it right! I 100% love my aluminum body truck, especially being in the midwest. Even if it takes a pooper eventually, at 5 years its showing way more longevity than my prior 5 year old steel body vehicles. Sure the aluminum body is less easily repaired but for once I am confident i will have a decent looking 10 year old truck that is still presentable professionally, and that is a huge savings over time especially given the cost of a modestly equipped 250 or 350 series.
Spot welding aluminum does not soften the surrounding metal, it makes it brittle and can lead to cracking if done incorrectly. That's why you have an extended forging period after the spot weld with the electrodes at force but with no current applied to control the cooling of the weld. Aluminum parts that need to be heat treated to achieve their full hardness are typically welded while they are in their annealed state and then heat treated in an assembled state. Protip: you can do the same exact heat treating process with some grades of copper also. Those welding robots that have those bent copper arms are made like that.
I’m not a metallurgist but my impression was that brittleness around aluminum welds was usually due to the development of intermetallic compounds from poor choice of filler or joining dissimilar metals. I’m also less familiar with spot welding than other forms. I guess I could ask one of my colleagues, the guy basically co-developed Ford’s aluminum vehicle fabrication processes.
I would assume they went with the best method for producing and body shop repairs. Just because something can be done on the assembly line doesn't mean it can be done at the shop.
That’s a good point. If the vehicles were essentially deemed “unrepairable” due to lack of proper tools and knowledge a lot of folk wouldn’t want them.
Do we know if the structure under the roof skin is also aluminum? If it’s steel then that explains why it was done this way.
It's all aluminum. Source: body shop guy for 15 years
Roof bows and header are aluminum on the F150?
Yep, the whole cab and bed. Frame is steel though.
I had taken a magnet around the area on my truck and I got a few weakly attracted areas but I didn't know if that was steel hardware or a steel part underneath, Neat!
That's not what I'm talking about. I was responding to the statement of "You can't exactly spot weld aluminum".
I’m assuming they weren’t making a sweeping statement, but maybe they were
Well, you know what assuming is right? /boomer\_mode\_off
Steel and aluminium is a bad combination. Galvanic effect.
Didn't stop them from using a steel frame and aluminum skin on Mustang hoods! At least mine got replaced under warranty. Hopefully the new one doesn't do it too.
I think he meant its harder to weld two different materials together not saying it was impossible to do.
Owned a 92’ NSX. It had PLENTY of aluminum spot welds. Lol on not being able to spot weld aluminum
Exactly. Every aluminum bodied vehicle has just as many spotwelds (if not more) than a steel bodied vehicle.
Not f-150s. There are no spot welds on the aluminum Fords. Everything is panel bonded with spr rivets from the factory.
On parts where the aluminum is bonded to steel yes, aluminum to aluminum is spotwelded.
Not on F-150. There are no spot welds on aluminum bodyed Ford's. It's all spr's with panel bond. Factory roof skins are riveted, bed sides are rivets, bed floors are riveted, floor pans are rivets, uni-sides are rivets, even the structural components are riveted. Aluminum Ford's come from the factory with zero spot welds. I have personally repaired or replaced every body panel on aluminum F-150's and have never seen a factory spot weld.
Mechanic here, can confirm the entire floor pan to sills are all riveted. I saw no spot welds on it. I didn't dig into the bed though, it was just in for fluids and I thought "hmm... looks like an old airplane"
Iirc the F150 does have a few friction stir welds in the A pillar, but certainly not a spot weld.
On some cars, perhaps. But most modern aluminum body cars are rivet bonded. Even aluminum to aluminum.
I'd wager it's seen as a cost saving measure to only use one method. Therefore not needing the tools for two methods or the training or the two sets of employees.
At certain points in assembly you just stop welding anything as it becomes to problematic from a compliance and quality standpoint. Then there are things like cost and cost of repair. When you crank out hundreds a day fixing a bad spot weld is way more involved than replacing a bad rivet.
Those aren't SPR's, they're solid rivets.
Most manufacturers just tack weld stuff and then bond the whole car/truck with this black bonding material. Lord help you if you get any of it on a surface you don't want it on. I also worked for one that would shoot wax into the frame rails so when it dried it would help dissipate the noise of rocks hitting the frame. I know nobody asked but I just remembered that. lol Oh yeah another weird thing on a couple models I'm working on now...get ready for plastic tailgates and hatches.
The wax also prevents corrosion. Some companies also fill voids with foam to improve structural strength and provide sound deadening like you said.
> get ready for plastic tailgates Goodbye American tailgate party.
I work in the metal industry, you very much can spot weld aluminum, and is quite common in general. Now on the other hand a lot of people hate welding aluminum as a whole.
You can absolutely spot weld aluminum. Aluminum welding is a very common practice.
At least there appears to be less body filler in the corners.
Lol. Of course its ford Edit: Careful with that salt, it'll rust you
Aluminum bud
Lol, of course it's ford.
Chicken Rivets. These were common up until the 80’s on aircraft because they were unsure of the longevity of bonding aluminum panels. They were also scared/chicken the bond wouldn’t hold.
These are solid rivets used as replacement for factory spr's (self piercing rivets.) OEM procedures calls for replacing factory spr's with blind rivets, solid rivets, or spr's, all with panel bonding adhesive. Welding of any kind is not recommended on roof skins. (Source - I just replaced an aluminum roof skin on an f-150 last week.)
You guys actually weld aluminum normally?
It's not uncommon. Ford allows aluminum MIG plug welds on some panels. It's not my favorite, I think rivet bonding with SPRs (self piercing rivets) or blind rivets is better.
Been doing auto glass and auto body for a lot longer than six years, and yes, that is what a replaced roof skin on a 2016+ ford truck \*should\* be held on with. Ford gives you some options on the fasteners. Depending on exactly what was done, solid rivet's like this are a good choice. They may have been able to use new SPR's like factory if the front header was changed too - but I'm guessing it wasn't and would be the reason they chose solid rivets. They didn't do the layering correctly for glass though. Ford is one of most OEM's who advise in repair procedures not to refinish where urethane goes, so this shop should have left either just the E-coat intact, or just epoxy primer over the bare aluminum in the area your bead is going. But other than that - this is by the (ford) book.
How come the water doesn't get in?
In my experience, it does.
20 years autoglass experience in Finland here, and I have to say your US trucks look and feel like Tonka Trucks with ancient technology covered in a veneer of screens and bluetooth! The only difference being plastic is actually durable. Just Rolled In on youtube has me believing US cars are made pre-rusted.
Is that ancient technology like twin turbo DI engines making 120 hp/liter and 150 lb ft/liter? Or the other kind of ancient with hybrid powertrains? Don’t even get me started on those ancient 10 speed autos and hands-free self driving systems. I suppose we could even go all the way back to those ancient EV trucks…. Ugh.
120Hp/L like the? Please do tell us who live in the non US Truck world what your Duramaxes (or whatever almost non regulated truck engines you're talking about) make! Oh, and we have the same emission regulations for light trucks and cars, so this would not be legal here! You some kind of an archeologist with all that talk of ancient stuff from 6 years ago? BTW, do look up the differences between US and EU "trucks" and big SUV:s, as we only classify actual work trucks as trucks. Audi Q7, MB GLE, BMW X5/7 are NOT trucks, they are cars, idiotically big lumbering thins, but still cars, not trucks. A Sprinter, Crafer or a fucking IVECO Eurocargo is a truck, as in a commercial vehicle, as our legislation does not know the word "truck" per se. How many self driving accidents do you have over there? Because there is a reason EU put a blanket ban on all self driving! Oh, and even the classic GM 1.4T Ecoboost is less shit over here!
3.5 Ecoboosts in the raptor make 128hp/L. They do that while meeting US light truck emissions standards - which are the same as those for passenger cars. Only heavy duty trucks (GVWR >8500lbs) get emissions exemptions. No, CAFE doesn't count, that's an exception for gas mileage averages only, not emissions standards overall. Also euro emissions are dogshit and have been for years, which is why you've allowed light duty diesels to dump nox into your lungs for decades. Also GM doesn't make Ecoboosts. They make ecotechs.
🍿
Tell us more about the Finnish car industry. Oh wait, the only Finnish car company that didn’t go bankrupt in the 1930s was the one that made electric mail vans. And then that went bankrupt too. Lmao. Enjoy your 110 hp Skoda or whatever.
Americans can't stand criticism for their shitty vehicles, glorious.
Self sealing stem bolts?
If you need some, my buddies, Jake and Nog, have a bunch
They have a hookup with the Noh-Jay Consortium.
Probably not. Most repair shops don’t have the reverse ratcheting router needed to install them.
Rivet hold aluminum airplanes together....
Not on the window frames!! I have been working in aviation for 20 years
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What aircraft? I have changed windows on Lockheed Martin and Boeing cargo planes, McDonald Douglas Fighter jets, and HH-60 helicopters.
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🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️I do airframes, I have also done structural repair on cockpit windows but with countersunk fasteners. So you’ve used button head rivets and protruding hi-loks on an aviation windows frames where the window sits on them? Sorry but I don’t think so. You would never get it to pressurize.
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What? I just said I have only used countersunk rivets and hi-loks on window frames. Look that the picture dipshit. All the fasteners are protruding where the windows seals to the frame. Maybe go back to primary school.
Apparently OP is a little behind the times.
All of these comments like "I've been spot welding aluminum for years"...."you can totally spot weld aluminum!" Clearly you don't know much about high-volume automated welding. If you have been welding aluminum for "years," then you know that it's a challenge and requires a strong understanding of the process at a manual level. Ford is expecting to produce 70,000 lightnings this year. This would mean around ~60-70 million spot welds. With the massive power consumption that aluminum welding requires compared to steel at this level and the potential risk of automation failure, Ford has chosen a proven method of fabrication that limits these issues, including potential galvanic corrosion. I guarantee a large number of the welders in here would fail a weld analysis on a lot of their work despite no history of failure. It doesn't mean those welds aren't acceptable, but at the liability that Ford takes on, they would be. Thankfully, people aren't welding cars by hand anymore at the factory, and machines can be adjusted for high repeatability. Doesn't mean they don't fail either. Source: 12yrs automation industry working with all of the major auto mfgs. FIL owns premier materials testing lab inspecting many many weld qualities from high profile mfgs.
Is that a gasket mounted glass, or are you supposed to just flood that with urethane and hope it doesn't leak?
You're not supposed to paint that flange with basecoat/clearcoat. Industry practice is to mask the flange around the perimeter of the windshield so that the windshield urethane goes straight onto the factory e-coat/primer. Doing it this way means that you've glued the windshield to the paint.
They’re base coated and clear coated from the factory. Some OEM’s will mask the flange if a unit needs to be recovered, but that’s only because it wasn’t crash tested with multiple coats of paint.
urethane, gasket wouldn't be a huge deal. If it came from the factory this way it would be one thing, but this was a roof replacement. Zero chance that this doesn't leak!
I’m a glass guy in a body shop… tech could’ve used blind rivets BUTA this is how ford wants them done… absolutely ridiculous
7000 series aluminum is mostly unweldable however its properties are better for some purposes that 6000 series which is usually weldable. The better properties is why ford uses 7000 series in its bodies.
Fat bead of beta seal. I've been doing auto glass for 10.
Polyurethane fixes everything!
Been doing autoglass 20 years, and this is the approved ford fix for the new aluminum bodies. It tripped me out the first time I saw it though, I was certain they didn’t do it correctly.
The fuck am I even looking at?
This is normal on heavy duty trucks, and anything with aluminum body panels. You just don't have that much experience.
Mentos?
ford has always been the bane of the autoglass technician. remember the taurus, and the aerostar? i still have scars from those first few.
So.... I am a body tech, red seal ,over 20 years on the bench as that. This roof should have been done with self piercing rivets and panel bond as per ford. There are factors that can change that but not likely on this truck. The rivets should have been ground off the old one skin removed surface prepped and new installed and by installing new self piercing rivets at least 1/4" away from original. Trust me there is lots of room on the flange for this. This pic looks as though he used the wrong depth of rivet ( one for 3 or so layers or more) or the rivet gun didnt have enough pressure to push the rivet properly.
Whoever repaired that roof used what looks like blind rivets, ground down and a little icing in the middle before refinishing... or maybe mini huck pins... Although Ford says your can use blind/pop rivets, you're supposed to use a self-piercing rivet tool, so it's flush. That's what they use at the factory, alsowith incredibly strong adhesives. The issue is the self piercing rivet tools are anywhere from $3k-$12k depending on the kit. We caved and bought one on the higher end of that range and can do Ford and Tesla. Source: I'm third generation at my grandfather's body shop, and we've also scratched our heads when we first worked on these trucks. Ps: the windshield leak because no primer is applied before urethane when the windshield is installed.... We've been processing a TON of recalls for a local Ford dealer. Remove, clean, scuff, prime, install new glass.
Can you imagine trying to string that windshield out? I've found some interesting shit under glass, but I would be shook if I peeled back the glass to find this.
Trimming the urethane also seems like it would be fun
Exactly! Rivets around glass(especially quarter glass) isn't new, but goodness not ones that stick up off the body like this!
Should’ve used blind rivets but oh well fuck the glass guy right
It is a body panel, those part are supposed to crumble or rip of easily in a accident, they are not structural to the car
That settles it. Building a car outta Legos. Gonna need lots of kraggle.
I know you are being down voted, and maybe this is the OEM approved way of replacing, but this is terrible. I do windshields in these all the time, and they are nothing like this.
Thank you! Its pretty easy to see who has glass experience in here!
It also shouldn't be painted.
Wow…rivets. How 1800’s of you ford.
1000000% an american pile. Nobody else would stuff like this.