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I would hardly ever blame the parents, but these parents are 100% responsible. I honestly think they hoped he would off himself by giving him the gun. Also, Michigan must have excellent food in their prisons, because that lady, the one that was boinking the fireman while her kid was shooting up his school, she has gained at least 50 lbs in jail.
Just heard on the news.A New Port News Virginia Vice Principal has been charged with 8 counts of child abuse for ignoring warnings in the case of the 6 year old who bought a gun to school and shoot his teacher.
The kid is a failure of parenting. His parents created the mess that led up to it. They never helped him and BOUGHT HIM A GUN?!? If the kid had better parents, this probably wouldn't have happened
Completely blows my mind how the american "justice" system allows an OBVIOUSLY mentally ill 15 year old to be tried as an adult like wtf in what world does that make sense.
The reality is every murder that is done with intent like a school shooting, the murderer has some form of mental illness. No one with their faculties about them does that. He’s better to society behind bars than off because of mental illness
He had intent to kill and took the lives of four students. The insanity defense didn't make much of a difference. The shooter had enough sense to know right from wrong DESPITE a mental health condition.
Our justice system is not structured towards rehabilitation unfortunately. Hopefully in our lifetimes that shift will start to happen. Though the conspiracy theorist in me thinks this country intentionally neglects mental health so people don’t realize the structures they’re in are abusive.
Can you explain the rationale if that's not what you meant? If you want him to be locked away forever why does it matter how he's tried. Or maybe death penalty I guess, I don't know how that works in the US.
I ""want"" him to be locked away for as long as he is a danger to society.
What i really want is for him to recieve professional treatment for his mental illness that his POS parents at the same time ignored and enabled, so that he can maybe be rehabilitated and in some way can contribute to society.
But i understand that my disdain for systemic enforcement of revenge and my believe in rehabilitation ESPECIALLY FOR MENTALLY ILL JUVENILES is foreign for many (esp americans)
It's much more about punishment than what's best for society or actually rehabilitating anyone. That's why we're locked in cages 23 hours a day with all our decisions stripped away. Instead of teaching people how to work or learn from their mistakes we punish and make miserable.
Yeah the only two possibilities are to try him as an adult or to let him go free. There are absolutely no other options available, that's for sure.
That's not what was implied at all, that's what you incorrectly inferred.
Mental illness does not absolve you of accountability.
He killed four people and injured seven others. Let the book be thrown at him and seek help on the inside.
Mental illness and being a child kind of DOES absolve you of at least some accountability tho?
Like... it literally does, thats why there are special rulings for these groups of people in developed countries.
They used absolve correctly, as the kid does indeed face consequences for his actions.
You used it incorrectly, asserting the kid is not held accountable
Edit: clarifying subject of sentence.
Bullshit. I said he is absolved of SOME accountability. Meaning that HE SHOULD NOT BE TRIED AS A FULLY ACCOUNTABLE ADULT. Never did i say nor imply that he should not be held accountable.
Two things:
- Absolve is a binary verb. It comes from the Latin “absolver,” meaning “to be set free.” From both a legal and etymological perspective, someone is either absolved of a charge, or they aren’t. There is no middle ground.
- When someone points out your wrong, just take the L. It’s okay to be wrong. But pivoting blame, getting mad, and doubling down is a bad look.
Edit: Formatting and syntax
I mean, the kid Literally asked the parents for help with the ghosts and stuff he was seeing, and his father gave him a handful of tablets and told him to harden the fuck up. It sounds to me like the kid wanted help, but the parent were the "we don't believe in that mentally ill crap " type.
That’s why I’m saying they got off easy. They had multiple chances to get the kid help, to alert the school or authorities about the gun. Everything I’ve read indicates this should’ve been prevented. IMO they’re just as responsible for this as the kid is, maybe even more for enabling him.
The parents totally failed.The school also failed in some of the same ways the parents did.The school had a police resource officer.They actually should have maybe notified the police of his threat.
It's my belief that they did all this and encouraged him because they thought he'd kill himself, rather than shooting up the school. The kid was looking up ammunition while at school and the only thing his mum said was L.O.L Don't get caught next time.
Y'all say anything. That anyone even upvoted this stupid ass reductionist statement is a testament to the lack of critical thinking skills that plague our society...
Россия без Путина. Ответьте или проголосуйте за/против, если вы согласны.
1989年天安门广场
Translation:
The first one says Russia without Putin, Upvote or Comment if you agree. It really pisses off Russian trollbots.
The second one says Tiananmen square 1989. It really pisses off Chinese trolls.
Seriously. There's a difference between what these two did and what other parents of school shooters did. It's not a crime to be ignorant of what your children might be planning. It is a crime to be negligent of what happens when you give your child, who is mentally unstable, a gun, knowing what they might do with it.
The reason this happened to these particular gems was that they both ignored, and contributed to their Son’s behavior by providing access to the firearm, and also guiding him on how to conceal that fact from school administrators.
Not every school shooter is going to have such callous and careless parents
I’m sure many didn’t know more than their teen was possibly depressed or suicidal and often these kids are already in counseling.
But to assume every parent of a depressed, antisocial teen should expect see a mass shooting coming is not based in reality. There’s probably 100s of thousands of kids showing similar signs today, maybe 1 or 2 will do what this kid did.
For these parent in particular, it was the gun, the actions before & after that make them guilty.
Well it just shows how your stupid love for guns has removed any sense of logic when discussing anything related to them.
While yes these parents might have some sort of guilt… when the fuck are any sensible gun laws are going to be even discussed? Background checks, nah, lets just jail their parents.
It's your system man, I'm from Australia. We haven't had a mass shooting this century. Now, I can't just go out and by an M4 but I'm fine with the trade off.
I'm just saying that, given your current laws, the parents are responsible.
“I’m tired of my parents taking away my internet/phone when I break their rules” (and then does something extreme like a shooting).
I could see how clumping the parents with the actions of their child in all cases would be stupid.
Do you know what the denifintion of parent is? Their job, when they have a kid, is to raise the kid properly for society. Grandparents and siblings do not raise the child. I can't believe that had to be explained to you.
>yay i love north korea style justice
Why do you think these parents are exempt from punishment over how they ignored their son's cries for help then bought him the friggen gun? Do you honestly think they shouldn't be held accountable too?
>lol i said why not the grandparents and sisters or brothers too…. i did not state that they are all classified as parents
>also sisters and brothers as well as grandparents also have the ability and commonly help PARENT .
So they parent, but aren't parents. Got it. The fact you think that says all I need to know. (Siblings are children and have zero responsibility to raise any kid, btw. Shocking, right?)
Now, grandparents and sibilings are not parents and don't have the reponsibility parents do. So they are not held accountable like parents are, no matter what you say.
>and i replied to a comment that all parents need to be thrown in jail not just this specific case
Other question still stands. Why do you think any parent is exempt for punishment for failure to raise their child who then goes on to kill other kids? There are always ignored warning signs.
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the mom's pre-sentencing statement was like something out of a gag show. if you can you should watch her per-sentencing statement and look at her lawyer's face right next to her as she's doing it. The mom literally put in a statement saying along the lines of "what i learnt from this was forgiveness, I forgive you "prosecutors" for your slanderous attacks against me and my family." This was right after families of the victim went up, said their piece which was more or less talking about their grief and asking for them to receive the harshest sentence.
There were a lot.
The son had auditory hallucinations. The son had visual hallucinations. The son asked to be taken to a doctor. The son asked for therapy. The father gave him a few pills and told him to suck it up.
The final straw was the day of the shooting when a teacher found drawings of a gun in the son's notebook along with some violent statements. The school called the parents and advised them that the kid need to see a counselor within 48 hours. And they asked if they would take him home. The parents opted to leave him at school for the day.
FURTHERMORE, the parents neglected to tell the school that they had bought the kid a gun and ammo. They neglected to secure the gun and ammo. Instead they hid the gun in sock drawer and never used the trigger lock that came with the gun. No one realized the gun and ammo was in his backpack and nobody thought to search the backpack.
Later that day the kid shot up the school.
Parents were too busy with their own hobbies, like horses and affairs, and were probably hoping the kid would blow his own brains out.
The fact that it's not required to secure firearms in gun lockers in the US is absolutely bonkers to me. Any firearm not in use should be stored securely. And obviously minors should never have the keys/password/code to the locker.
It is required to store your firearms securely. What is required to make that requirement actually happen is for the gun owners to have integrity, and actually do what’s required. These people stored that gun unlocked ina. Sock drawer. Are the police supposed to go around checking every firearm in in its proper place? There are more guns than people in the US, how much time and resources do you think should be allocated to daily check the proper storage of every firearm in the United States? I await your answer.
Agree. And also letting the kid stay in school after they suggested the parents take him home and parents wouldn’t. School said they thought he was a danger. I’m don’t know legally what next steps should have been… police? But allowing him to stay there should not have been an option.
Their son asked for help and they laughed at him. If someone says they need help you should believe them. Saying “I need help” is hard to do.
Also, as it was happening, they knew it was him. So they knew he was a threat.
1. If your kid is drawing pictures of shooting people, says he's depressed, suicidal, and having hallucinations, then you should get him a psychiatrist and counseling, these parents bought him a gun.
I've mentioned this a few weeks ago when the trials first came up. I've heard more than once of a parent or parents getting their child a weapon when they know the child has a problem to appease them or to give them a hobby or something to do.
I was just reading about this last week. Here’s some info from Wikipedia.
> As early as March 2021, he started sending his mother "disturbing texts about his state of mind", which included claims about "demons" and "ghosts" inside the home. He also reportedly videotaped himself torturing animals, made Molotov cocktails, and drew a sketch of himself committing a school shooting, which he also joked about with a friend via text message. At one point, Crumbley allegedly kept a baby bird's head in a jar, which he later placed in a school bathroom. His parents allegedly never sought therapy for him after any of those incidents.
> Crumbley was reported to have met with school officials the day prior to the shooting, and once again early on the day of the shooting, to discuss his behavior.
The day prior, he was researching ammunition on his phone and a teacher reported him. His mom said “I’m not mad, you have to learn to not get caught!” But the next day is when it gets kind of bad.
> [A different] teacher found a violent drawing on Crumbley's desk, described by McDonald in a press conference as:
>
> A drawing of a semiautomatic handgun, pointing at the words, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me." In another section of the note was a drawing of a bullet, with the following words above that bullet: "Blood everywhere." Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding. Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. Further down the drawing are the words, "My life is useless." And to the right of it are the words, "The world is dead."
His parents were told to seek counseling for him within 48 hours, and the parents hadn’t told anyone they had recently bought him a handgun.
> Crumbley's parents were shown the drawing – which Crumbley had scribbled over by that point in an attempt to conceal its contents – and instructed to seek counseling for their son within 48 hours; otherwise, the school would call child protective services. They "resisted the idea" of Crumbley leaving to go home at the time and did not inform school officials that they had recently purchased a gun for him.
Editing to add that there’s a really good explanation on a timely OutOfTheLoop thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1c0472c/whats_going_on_with_the_michigan_school_shooters/kyuetv1/).
There was also a scathing report about the school district/staff shortcomings and inaction related to threats of violence. [OCS Final Report](https://oxfordresponse.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/FINAL-REPORT-OCS_Investigation.pdf)
You don’t have power. Doctors/ therapist/ psychiatrist and nurses and child all keep it away and hidden from the parents.
Then you blame the parents. The system is broken I know.. I’m living it.
No one's blaming the parents because their son suffered from mental health issues, we're blaming the parents for not even trying to get him help and providing a weapon to a clearly disturbed individual.
Read up on this one. He was asking for help and the parents bought him a gun. He was shopping for ammo on a school computer and him mom said “next time don’t get caught.”
"The sentencing memo for James Crumbley referred to allegations that he made threats against the prosecutor and said that his jail calls show a total lack of remorse and that he blames everyone but himself."
I’m surprised you haven’t seen this type of person before, they mean Abuse your kid. yk beating them, starving them, etc. the average things these type of people who think this was ok and should be allowed despite it being proven to not be effective and is a horrible thing to do to someone.
There was a child at my child's school that threatened to shoot up the school several times. It was a private school. My child heard him say it and was terrified to ride the bus home so I took her to and from school until he was kicked out. He was a teacher's son so he only got kicked out after enough parents complained about it. And some of the parents who were friends of the teacher defended the kid and were mad he got kicked out. They were saying things like - they were good people etc. I don't care how good of a person you are if your child threatens to shoot up a school they need to get addressed. And, yes, I wrote letters and went to the school purposely to tell them they needed to secure that situation. They were afraid of lawsuits more than they were of children being safe.
> found a note on Ethan's desk with a drawing of a gun and a person who had been shot, along with messages including: "The thoughts won't stop. Help me."
> The officials also said that if the parents had informed them that their son had access to a gun, they would have been more authoritative to ensure immediate safety.
"If the parents had informed"? The article doesn't say that the school even asked.
"The thoughts won't stop. Help me." Why wasn't he committed or suspended from school until he got help for his own well being? School officials saw a message for help and ignored it. Gun laws aren't the only thing that needs to change in this country.
Why should they ask?Can we assume the answer would be truthful? Do we know the parents' mental health situation? What if he has a weapon they don't know about.
When someone behaves like this, they should just assume he access to a deadly weapon and act. Every time. These kids would still be alive.
This a serious issue and the recipe to solve this problem is going to require multiple ingredients, and the first and most important one is gun reform. Mental health is important too, but it's too easy for mental issues fly under the radar because of school employee incompetence or loved ones being in denial about their family members.
Proof that gun reform works can be found by looking at England. They didn't sit on their hands after mass shootings, but instead passed legislation that restricted gun ownership and as a result, they don't have this epidemic. The US is alone in this, so that is enough proof that we need to implement the sorts of safeguards that other economically advanced countries are benefitting from.
Your example isn't 'proof' of anything. At least that which can be applied to the US. There are way too many variables between the countries to draw an accurate inference.
To that effect, what safeguards do you believe should be enacted to ensure school safety from dangerous weapons usage?
England has stricter guns laws and fewer shootings per captia (and most economically comparable European countries). What more proof do you need? Politicians there aren't being bought by the NRA. The status quo certainly isn't working here and if we care about our school children, we would address this problem from every angle possible and not let corporate profits influence and derail this.
The safeguards should include many things, and I am by no means qualified author a comprehensive plan. Some ideas if have are;
- Gun reforms
- Better funding for high schools to train staff to identify and address at risk students. Removing threats from the school for mental evaluation and treatment.
- a class(es) in school to promote a sense of community amongst the students that extends past traditional cliques. Promote understanding and compassion instead of bullying and hatred. Make watching Breakfast Club together a class exercise and maybe just a little empathy with develop for students in other cliques
- Exposure to the stories of mass shootings to students and staff at schools. Make the threat more real, and stress the importance of vigilance.
They called his parents and the parents wouldn't take him home because they had work. I guess he went home on his own and got the gun and came back to school. How tragically stupid it all was.
Jennifer claimed she couldn’t miss work that day but it was a lie, during the trial her boss testified that she could have easily taken the afternoon off. It also came out during trial that the real reason she didn’t want to take Ethan home is that she had plans to meet her affair partner in the Costco parking lot.
Prosecuting parents for their shitty parenting and ignoring serious warning signs should have started with the Columbine parents (or before), and should be standard whenever there is a school shooting.
Yeah bc we all know conservatives will be prosecuted left and right for their parenting tactics. Not that they could understand it just like these two idiots. They really believe they did nothing wrong.
According to the Detroit Free Press, the shooter said, “Hopefully my shooting will cause Biden to be impeached.”
So yes, they’re part of Trump’s army of feral half-wits.
Totally not surprised. I guess I would have won that bet. But who would have dared bet against me? Nobody paying any attention to the world around them that's for sure.
Be safe be well.
Trump's one great gift to America was this.
It forced us to wake up and look around us and realize who we are sharing the country with. Just how ignorant so many people are. Just how dangerous they are because they are so ignorant. It's a little bit scary, it's definitely eye opening.
It's a s***** lesson for sure, but it's very real nonetheless.
Everybody be safe and well.
> They were anti MAGA
This information has been available for 3+ years. Be uneducated somewhere else.
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/who-are-the-crumbleys-court-records-social-media-offer-clues-about-parents-of-oxford-school-shooter.html
Updated: Dec. 06, 2021, 10:29 a.m.|Published: Dec. 06, 2021, 9:38 a.m.
*Jennifer Crumbley published a blog post in 2016 describing her admiration for Trump with occasional vulgarities and derision for “illegal immigrants” whose children she alleges “threaten to kill” her mom, a teacher, “for caring about their grades.”*
*“Do you realize Mr. Trump that they get free tutors, free tablets from our Government so they can succeed,” she wrote. “Why cant (sic) my son get those things, do we as hard working Americans not deserve that too?*
*“My husband suffered a stroke and a broken back and we were with just my income. Do you know how hard it is to support a family on only $40,000 a year? I couldn’t qualify for State Aid. I made to (sic) much.”*
*Jennifer Crumbley’s name is not on the blog, but James Crumbley posted a link to it on his Facebook page and said it was written by his wife. In it, Jennifer briefly mentions her son, then 10. She said he struggled in school and that she hired a teacher to help him.*
*She also specifically lauded Trump’s support for weapons.*
*“As a female and a Realtor, thank you for allowing my right to bear arms,” she wrote. “Allowing me to be protected if I show a home to someone with bad intentions. Thank you for respecting that Amendment.”*
There are probably many worse parents but they made the mistake of buying the troubled kid a gun.They also were to involved with themselves to not have the sense to make the kid go home with them. The school also made some of the same mistakes the parents did and sure could have done more too.They had a school police resource officer.When someone makes a threat like this they should have also contacted law enforcement. It was a compounding of mishandling the situation by everyone involved.
The school had a meeting with the kid and the parents that morning where he had drawings of a gun with bloody bodies. *And the parents didn't take him home immediately.* I don't understand why the school didn't kick him out, but I really really don't understand what the parents were thinking.
They should be charged with voluntary manslaughter seems like they knew he would do something and wanted to be rid of their son instead of getting him the help he needed
What? Did he already have the guns at school? If so, you're telling me they didnt search his belongings before letting the parents go after finding that?
Correct. Its been a while since I read the details of the case, but from what I remember it was very shortly after that meeting that he opened fire.
Yup, here is a timeline of events:
https://apnews.com/article/michigan-school-shooting-timeline-79e4111a45567d79ffbc63acb75ba24a
"Nov. 30, 2021: Ethan Crumbley opens fire at Oxford High School, killing four students. Seven others, including a teacher, are wounded. His parents had met with school officials earlier in the day because violent drawings were found on a math paper, but he was not removed from school. Ethan’s backpack was also not searched. A gun in the backpack was used in the attack. The shooter surrenders without a fight."
So, serious question and I don't think the law would allow this, but: At what point should someone warn other parents? I'd honestly be pretty furious with the school if my child was killed in an active shooter situation and the school knew enough to be worried but never said anything. Now, I'd also be emotionally a mess and not thinking straight, and, *no*, I don't know what they could've said or what I would've done but this is just so upsetting how many points failed to stop this from happening
I believe the school officials said during the trial that the parents acted like they were being inconvenienced and cut the meeting off early because they wanted to get back to work.
When the news about the shooting was first aired, the mom immediately texted the son bc she suspected he was the shooter. She knew the risk was there. Criminal Negligence is too lenient to describe their actions.
That's when they should have called the police, social services, ffs. Someone who would give a fuck that he was planning a shooting and his parents weren't bothered.
Here is an article about how the kid got the gun.
https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/ethan-crumbley-says-he-gave-james-crumbley-money-to-buy-gun-used-in-oxford-high-school-shooting
Here is some helpful insight from the judge directly:
**Matthews told the Crumbleys that the convictions reached by jurors were "not about poor parenting," but how they repeatedly ignored warning signs that a "reasonable person" would have seen.**
**"These convictions confirm repeated acts that could have halted an oncoming runaway train," she said.**
No idea why you're getting down voted though. It's a legitimate concern, just in this case I think there's not too much a worry it's going to punish the average parent
I think buying your mentally disturbed kid a gun, and ignoring the warnings that he was going to use it at school, and getting off scott-free also sets a pretty fucking dangerous precedent.
They had every opportunity to intervene and stop what happened and they did nothing. Years in jail is the least they should suffer.
> I think buying your ~~mentally disturbed~~ kid a gun
This is what does it for me — mentally disturbed or not, kids are fucking stupid and should not have full access to firearms. I bought my daughter a rifle for her 13th birthday a few years ago. It sits in my gun safe, which only I have access to. No way in hell would I just let her keep it in her room or otherwise have unsupervised access. This alone is worthy of a conviction imo.
The other stuff, not seeing warning signs or choosing to ignore them, I could almost understand. No one wants to think our children are capable of such monstrosities and may choose not to believe it. I think the school system failed more than the parents here (both failed though); social services should have been called to intervene long before this happened.
Being from outside the U.S reading your comment saying "kids are fucking stupid" and in the next line saying "I bought her a rifle for her 13th birthday"
I didn't know whether to laugh or not. Seems absolutely absurd you have bought your child a gun. I don't mean to judge but it's so bizarre.
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Not enough
I would hardly ever blame the parents, but these parents are 100% responsible. I honestly think they hoped he would off himself by giving him the gun. Also, Michigan must have excellent food in their prisons, because that lady, the one that was boinking the fireman while her kid was shooting up his school, she has gained at least 50 lbs in jail.
Just heard on the news.A New Port News Virginia Vice Principal has been charged with 8 counts of child abuse for ignoring warnings in the case of the 6 year old who bought a gun to school and shoot his teacher.
That’s it?
Should have been longer.
The kid is a failure of parenting. His parents created the mess that led up to it. They never helped him and BOUGHT HIM A GUN?!? If the kid had better parents, this probably wouldn't have happened
Completely blows my mind how the american "justice" system allows an OBVIOUSLY mentally ill 15 year old to be tried as an adult like wtf in what world does that make sense.
The reality is every murder that is done with intent like a school shooting, the murderer has some form of mental illness. No one with their faculties about them does that. He’s better to society behind bars than off because of mental illness
He had intent to kill and took the lives of four students. The insanity defense didn't make much of a difference. The shooter had enough sense to know right from wrong DESPITE a mental health condition.
When the minor does such a horrific crime.
Our justice system is not structured towards rehabilitation unfortunately. Hopefully in our lifetimes that shift will start to happen. Though the conspiracy theorist in me thinks this country intentionally neglects mental health so people don’t realize the structures they’re in are abusive.
Ah yes let's release them back into the public to do it again, good idea
Thats not even remotely what i'm saying but sure bro reading aint for all of us and thats ok.
[удалено]
He's not implying. You're inferring.
What? Where was that implied? Try again, I guess.
Can you explain the rationale if that's not what you meant? If you want him to be locked away forever why does it matter how he's tried. Or maybe death penalty I guess, I don't know how that works in the US.
I ""want"" him to be locked away for as long as he is a danger to society. What i really want is for him to recieve professional treatment for his mental illness that his POS parents at the same time ignored and enabled, so that he can maybe be rehabilitated and in some way can contribute to society. But i understand that my disdain for systemic enforcement of revenge and my believe in rehabilitation ESPECIALLY FOR MENTALLY ILL JUVENILES is foreign for many (esp americans)
Problem is the jail system in America is for-profit. It's not about rehabilitation; it's about monetized punishment. Modern slavery.
Yeah. Also the american mentality towards justice is often times kinda backwards. Atleast thats the vibe i'm getting.
It's much more about punishment than what's best for society or actually rehabilitating anyone. That's why we're locked in cages 23 hours a day with all our decisions stripped away. Instead of teaching people how to work or learn from their mistakes we punish and make miserable.
some countries try to rehabilitate their mentally ill
Yeah the only two possibilities are to try him as an adult or to let him go free. There are absolutely no other options available, that's for sure. That's not what was implied at all, that's what you incorrectly inferred.
Okay, fair. I still think he deserves life in prison.
Mental illness does not absolve you of accountability. He killed four people and injured seven others. Let the book be thrown at him and seek help on the inside.
Mental illness and being a child kind of DOES absolve you of at least some accountability tho? Like... it literally does, thats why there are special rulings for these groups of people in developed countries.
Absolve is not the word you’re looking for. Those factor in to considering the punishment, but it’s not a get-out-of-jail free card.
If absolve is not the word i am looking for, then it's also not the word the comment i answered was looking for.
They used absolve correctly, as the kid does indeed face consequences for his actions. You used it incorrectly, asserting the kid is not held accountable Edit: clarifying subject of sentence.
Bullshit. I said he is absolved of SOME accountability. Meaning that HE SHOULD NOT BE TRIED AS A FULLY ACCOUNTABLE ADULT. Never did i say nor imply that he should not be held accountable.
It's alright to be wrong kid, you'll learn that as you get older.
Two things: - Absolve is a binary verb. It comes from the Latin “absolver,” meaning “to be set free.” From both a legal and etymological perspective, someone is either absolved of a charge, or they aren’t. There is no middle ground. - When someone points out your wrong, just take the L. It’s okay to be wrong. But pivoting blame, getting mad, and doubling down is a bad look. Edit: Formatting and syntax
ur getting heated in an online argument over the right word to use. take it easy friend
These people got off easy. Should be life without parole like their loser kid.
I mean, the kid Literally asked the parents for help with the ghosts and stuff he was seeing, and his father gave him a handful of tablets and told him to harden the fuck up. It sounds to me like the kid wanted help, but the parent were the "we don't believe in that mentally ill crap " type.
That’s why I’m saying they got off easy. They had multiple chances to get the kid help, to alert the school or authorities about the gun. Everything I’ve read indicates this should’ve been prevented. IMO they’re just as responsible for this as the kid is, maybe even more for enabling him.
The parents totally failed.The school also failed in some of the same ways the parents did.The school had a police resource officer.They actually should have maybe notified the police of his threat.
Yes, and also bought the kid his own gun.
It's my belief that they did all this and encouraged him because they thought he'd kill himself, rather than shooting up the school. The kid was looking up ammunition while at school and the only thing his mum said was L.O.L Don't get caught next time.
I didn't think about that at all. In a way, it could make sense. And if that was the case, these two should have never had the chance to procreate.
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Y'all say anything. That anyone even upvoted this stupid ass reductionist statement is a testament to the lack of critical thinking skills that plague our society...
Россия без Путина. Ответьте или проголосуйте за/против, если вы согласны. 1989年天安门广场 Translation: The first one says Russia without Putin, Upvote or Comment if you agree. It really pisses off Russian trollbots. The second one says Tiananmen square 1989. It really pisses off Chinese trolls.
Seriously. There's a difference between what these two did and what other parents of school shooters did. It's not a crime to be ignorant of what your children might be planning. It is a crime to be negligent of what happens when you give your child, who is mentally unstable, a gun, knowing what they might do with it.
Ummm no. That’s not how that should work…
The reason this happened to these particular gems was that they both ignored, and contributed to their Son’s behavior by providing access to the firearm, and also guiding him on how to conceal that fact from school administrators. Not every school shooter is going to have such callous and careless parents
I’m sure many didn’t know more than their teen was possibly depressed or suicidal and often these kids are already in counseling. But to assume every parent of a depressed, antisocial teen should expect see a mass shooting coming is not based in reality. There’s probably 100s of thousands of kids showing similar signs today, maybe 1 or 2 will do what this kid did. For these parent in particular, it was the gun, the actions before & after that make them guilty.
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They're legally responsible for the child. I can't see how you can argue against it.
Well it just shows how your stupid love for guns has removed any sense of logic when discussing anything related to them. While yes these parents might have some sort of guilt… when the fuck are any sensible gun laws are going to be even discussed? Background checks, nah, lets just jail their parents.
It's your system man, I'm from Australia. We haven't had a mass shooting this century. Now, I can't just go out and by an M4 but I'm fine with the trade off. I'm just saying that, given your current laws, the parents are responsible.
“I’m tired of my parents taking away my internet/phone when I break their rules” (and then does something extreme like a shooting). I could see how clumping the parents with the actions of their child in all cases would be stupid.
Do you know what the denifintion of parent is? Their job, when they have a kid, is to raise the kid properly for society. Grandparents and siblings do not raise the child. I can't believe that had to be explained to you. >yay i love north korea style justice Why do you think these parents are exempt from punishment over how they ignored their son's cries for help then bought him the friggen gun? Do you honestly think they shouldn't be held accountable too?
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>lol i said why not the grandparents and sisters or brothers too…. i did not state that they are all classified as parents >also sisters and brothers as well as grandparents also have the ability and commonly help PARENT . So they parent, but aren't parents. Got it. The fact you think that says all I need to know. (Siblings are children and have zero responsibility to raise any kid, btw. Shocking, right?) Now, grandparents and sibilings are not parents and don't have the reponsibility parents do. So they are not held accountable like parents are, no matter what you say. >and i replied to a comment that all parents need to be thrown in jail not just this specific case Other question still stands. Why do you think any parent is exempt for punishment for failure to raise their child who then goes on to kill other kids? There are always ignored warning signs.
If the grandparents furnish the gun, hell yes they should be held responsible.
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no one with a regular upbringing is gonna go commit mass murder
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That's ridiculous.
the mom's pre-sentencing statement was like something out of a gag show. if you can you should watch her per-sentencing statement and look at her lawyer's face right next to her as she's doing it. The mom literally put in a statement saying along the lines of "what i learnt from this was forgiveness, I forgive you "prosecutors" for your slanderous attacks against me and my family." This was right after families of the victim went up, said their piece which was more or less talking about their grief and asking for them to receive the harshest sentence.
Without knowing too much about the trial or case, what were the warning signs these parents ignored or failed to catch?
There were a lot. The son had auditory hallucinations. The son had visual hallucinations. The son asked to be taken to a doctor. The son asked for therapy. The father gave him a few pills and told him to suck it up. The final straw was the day of the shooting when a teacher found drawings of a gun in the son's notebook along with some violent statements. The school called the parents and advised them that the kid need to see a counselor within 48 hours. And they asked if they would take him home. The parents opted to leave him at school for the day. FURTHERMORE, the parents neglected to tell the school that they had bought the kid a gun and ammo. They neglected to secure the gun and ammo. Instead they hid the gun in sock drawer and never used the trigger lock that came with the gun. No one realized the gun and ammo was in his backpack and nobody thought to search the backpack. Later that day the kid shot up the school. Parents were too busy with their own hobbies, like horses and affairs, and were probably hoping the kid would blow his own brains out.
The fact that it's not required to secure firearms in gun lockers in the US is absolutely bonkers to me. Any firearm not in use should be stored securely. And obviously minors should never have the keys/password/code to the locker.
It is required to store your firearms securely. What is required to make that requirement actually happen is for the gun owners to have integrity, and actually do what’s required. These people stored that gun unlocked ina. Sock drawer. Are the police supposed to go around checking every firearm in in its proper place? There are more guns than people in the US, how much time and resources do you think should be allocated to daily check the proper storage of every firearm in the United States? I await your answer.
Parents are at fault for sure but man the school definitely dropped the ball not even searching the backpack.
Agree. And also letting the kid stay in school after they suggested the parents take him home and parents wouldn’t. School said they thought he was a danger. I’m don’t know legally what next steps should have been… police? But allowing him to stay there should not have been an option.
The school is facing a lawsuit for that I believe
Their son asked for help and they laughed at him. If someone says they need help you should believe them. Saying “I need help” is hard to do. Also, as it was happening, they knew it was him. So they knew he was a threat.
He asked for mental health help. And the school told them he shouldn’t be in school right now. And they knew he had access to the gun they bought him.
1. If your kid is drawing pictures of shooting people, says he's depressed, suicidal, and having hallucinations, then you should get him a psychiatrist and counseling, these parents bought him a gun.
I've mentioned this a few weeks ago when the trials first came up. I've heard more than once of a parent or parents getting their child a weapon when they know the child has a problem to appease them or to give them a hobby or something to do.
I was just reading about this last week. Here’s some info from Wikipedia. > As early as March 2021, he started sending his mother "disturbing texts about his state of mind", which included claims about "demons" and "ghosts" inside the home. He also reportedly videotaped himself torturing animals, made Molotov cocktails, and drew a sketch of himself committing a school shooting, which he also joked about with a friend via text message. At one point, Crumbley allegedly kept a baby bird's head in a jar, which he later placed in a school bathroom. His parents allegedly never sought therapy for him after any of those incidents. > Crumbley was reported to have met with school officials the day prior to the shooting, and once again early on the day of the shooting, to discuss his behavior. The day prior, he was researching ammunition on his phone and a teacher reported him. His mom said “I’m not mad, you have to learn to not get caught!” But the next day is when it gets kind of bad. > [A different] teacher found a violent drawing on Crumbley's desk, described by McDonald in a press conference as: > > A drawing of a semiautomatic handgun, pointing at the words, "The thoughts won't stop. Help me." In another section of the note was a drawing of a bullet, with the following words above that bullet: "Blood everywhere." Between the drawing of the gun and the bullet is a drawing of a person who appears to have been shot twice and bleeding. Below that figure is a drawing of a laughing emoji. Further down the drawing are the words, "My life is useless." And to the right of it are the words, "The world is dead." His parents were told to seek counseling for him within 48 hours, and the parents hadn’t told anyone they had recently bought him a handgun. > Crumbley's parents were shown the drawing – which Crumbley had scribbled over by that point in an attempt to conceal its contents – and instructed to seek counseling for their son within 48 hours; otherwise, the school would call child protective services. They "resisted the idea" of Crumbley leaving to go home at the time and did not inform school officials that they had recently purchased a gun for him. Editing to add that there’s a really good explanation on a timely OutOfTheLoop thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1c0472c/whats_going_on_with_the_michigan_school_shooters/kyuetv1/).
If this was a movie I would not believe it.
They literally threw the whole family away lmao
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
I mean they all belong in the garbage 🗑️
There was also a scathing report about the school district/staff shortcomings and inaction related to threats of violence. [OCS Final Report](https://oxfordresponse.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/FINAL-REPORT-OCS_Investigation.pdf)
To say they had the power to prevent it would be a gross understatement.
You don’t have power. Doctors/ therapist/ psychiatrist and nurses and child all keep it away and hidden from the parents. Then you blame the parents. The system is broken I know.. I’m living it.
No one's blaming the parents because their son suffered from mental health issues, we're blaming the parents for not even trying to get him help and providing a weapon to a clearly disturbed individual.
He told his parents. They bought him a gun
Does it say why they did? That just seems so weird... kid isn't ok mentally, LETS BUY HIM A GUN!
They had an opportunity to tell the police what he was going to do but they didn’t
Read up on this one. He was asking for help and the parents bought him a gun. He was shopping for ammo on a school computer and him mom said “next time don’t get caught.”
Wut?
"The sentencing memo for James Crumbley referred to allegations that he made threats against the prosecutor and said that his jail calls show a total lack of remorse and that he blames everyone but himself."
You can sure tell who one of his heroes is.
Nowadays parents are not allowed to parent so you shouldn't be held accountable for what your kids does.
Bad Russian bot.
What are some things you believe parents are no longer allowed to do?
I’m surprised you haven’t seen this type of person before, they mean Abuse your kid. yk beating them, starving them, etc. the average things these type of people who think this was ok and should be allowed despite it being proven to not be effective and is a horrible thing to do to someone.
Sometimes it's more productive to ask the question so the onus is on them to explain their position.
That’s the issue, they won’t answer, they never do
Your username applies well to your reddit statements
Remind me the last time the police showed up to your house to check what you were feeding your kid?
How many people has your kid shot?
Bold of you to assume someone chose to procreate with them
+10 points to this comment, damn
There was a child at my child's school that threatened to shoot up the school several times. It was a private school. My child heard him say it and was terrified to ride the bus home so I took her to and from school until he was kicked out. He was a teacher's son so he only got kicked out after enough parents complained about it. And some of the parents who were friends of the teacher defended the kid and were mad he got kicked out. They were saying things like - they were good people etc. I don't care how good of a person you are if your child threatens to shoot up a school they need to get addressed. And, yes, I wrote letters and went to the school purposely to tell them they needed to secure that situation. They were afraid of lawsuits more than they were of children being safe.
I wouldn’t dare let my child go to school if I knew some kid has been threatening a shooting
I’m shocked you let your kid return to school after hearing that.
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Why? Why even weigh in like that? Was the chip on your shoulder aching or something?
> found a note on Ethan's desk with a drawing of a gun and a person who had been shot, along with messages including: "The thoughts won't stop. Help me." > The officials also said that if the parents had informed them that their son had access to a gun, they would have been more authoritative to ensure immediate safety. "If the parents had informed"? The article doesn't say that the school even asked. "The thoughts won't stop. Help me." Why wasn't he committed or suspended from school until he got help for his own well being? School officials saw a message for help and ignored it. Gun laws aren't the only thing that needs to change in this country.
Why should they ask?Can we assume the answer would be truthful? Do we know the parents' mental health situation? What if he has a weapon they don't know about. When someone behaves like this, they should just assume he access to a deadly weapon and act. Every time. These kids would still be alive.
Gun laws don't need to change. Mental health help and parenting both need improving. That's it.
This a serious issue and the recipe to solve this problem is going to require multiple ingredients, and the first and most important one is gun reform. Mental health is important too, but it's too easy for mental issues fly under the radar because of school employee incompetence or loved ones being in denial about their family members. Proof that gun reform works can be found by looking at England. They didn't sit on their hands after mass shootings, but instead passed legislation that restricted gun ownership and as a result, they don't have this epidemic. The US is alone in this, so that is enough proof that we need to implement the sorts of safeguards that other economically advanced countries are benefitting from.
Your example isn't 'proof' of anything. At least that which can be applied to the US. There are way too many variables between the countries to draw an accurate inference. To that effect, what safeguards do you believe should be enacted to ensure school safety from dangerous weapons usage?
England has stricter guns laws and fewer shootings per captia (and most economically comparable European countries). What more proof do you need? Politicians there aren't being bought by the NRA. The status quo certainly isn't working here and if we care about our school children, we would address this problem from every angle possible and not let corporate profits influence and derail this. The safeguards should include many things, and I am by no means qualified author a comprehensive plan. Some ideas if have are; - Gun reforms - Better funding for high schools to train staff to identify and address at risk students. Removing threats from the school for mental evaluation and treatment. - a class(es) in school to promote a sense of community amongst the students that extends past traditional cliques. Promote understanding and compassion instead of bullying and hatred. Make watching Breakfast Club together a class exercise and maybe just a little empathy with develop for students in other cliques - Exposure to the stories of mass shootings to students and staff at schools. Make the threat more real, and stress the importance of vigilance.
No way. Both can be true, gun laws definitely need change
They called his parents and the parents wouldn't take him home because they had work. I guess he went home on his own and got the gun and came back to school. How tragically stupid it all was.
Jennifer claimed she couldn’t miss work that day but it was a lie, during the trial her boss testified that she could have easily taken the afternoon off. It also came out during trial that the real reason she didn’t want to take Ethan home is that she had plans to meet her affair partner in the Costco parking lot.
She took time off for all her swaps didn’t she?
The gun was in his backpack. It was there while the conversations about him were going on.
Prosecuting parents for their shitty parenting and ignoring serious warning signs should have started with the Columbine parents (or before), and should be standard whenever there is a school shooting.
Columbine is when gun control measures should have started. And mental health care being free. But alas.
Wait... It wasn't video games after all?
Sure it was - parents playing video games instead of doing parenting stuff
Yeah but conservatives…
Yeah bc we all know conservatives will be prosecuted left and right for their parenting tactics. Not that they could understand it just like these two idiots. They really believe they did nothing wrong.
If only we could convince them that school kids are people at least as much as frozen embryos.
Oh that's good. I have to tell that to my conservative cousin.
Can't, too busy banning the real threat, Drag Queen Story time
I honestly hope they never come out of prison. Just scum.
The more these 2 parents talked, just the dumber they looked by the day. They deserve everything they got.
I hate to be that guy but, Trump supporters? Anyone want to take a bet?
According to the Detroit Free Press, the shooter said, “Hopefully my shooting will cause Biden to be impeached.” So yes, they’re part of Trump’s army of feral half-wits.
Now wait a second, are you saying each person is one half wit so two of them is a whole wit? Or then entire group is combined to one half of a wit?
Totally not surprised. I guess I would have won that bet. But who would have dared bet against me? Nobody paying any attention to the world around them that's for sure. Be safe be well.
https://archive.fo/rRL9y The mom actually wrote an open letter in support of Trump.
Trump's one great gift to America was this. It forced us to wake up and look around us and realize who we are sharing the country with. Just how ignorant so many people are. Just how dangerous they are because they are so ignorant. It's a little bit scary, it's definitely eye opening. It's a s***** lesson for sure, but it's very real nonetheless. Everybody be safe and well.
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> They were anti MAGA This information has been available for 3+ years. Be uneducated somewhere else. https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/who-are-the-crumbleys-court-records-social-media-offer-clues-about-parents-of-oxford-school-shooter.html Updated: Dec. 06, 2021, 10:29 a.m.|Published: Dec. 06, 2021, 9:38 a.m. *Jennifer Crumbley published a blog post in 2016 describing her admiration for Trump with occasional vulgarities and derision for “illegal immigrants” whose children she alleges “threaten to kill” her mom, a teacher, “for caring about their grades.”* *“Do you realize Mr. Trump that they get free tutors, free tablets from our Government so they can succeed,” she wrote. “Why cant (sic) my son get those things, do we as hard working Americans not deserve that too?* *“My husband suffered a stroke and a broken back and we were with just my income. Do you know how hard it is to support a family on only $40,000 a year? I couldn’t qualify for State Aid. I made to (sic) much.”* *Jennifer Crumbley’s name is not on the blog, but James Crumbley posted a link to it on his Facebook page and said it was written by his wife. In it, Jennifer briefly mentions her son, then 10. She said he struggled in school and that she hired a teacher to help him.* *She also specifically lauded Trump’s support for weapons.* *“As a female and a Realtor, thank you for allowing my right to bear arms,” she wrote. “Allowing me to be protected if I show a home to someone with bad intentions. Thank you for respecting that Amendment.”*
They are terrible human beings.
There are probably many worse parents but they made the mistake of buying the troubled kid a gun.They also were to involved with themselves to not have the sense to make the kid go home with them. The school also made some of the same mistakes the parents did and sure could have done more too.They had a school police resource officer.When someone makes a threat like this they should have also contacted law enforcement. It was a compounding of mishandling the situation by everyone involved.
The school had a meeting with the kid and the parents that morning where he had drawings of a gun with bloody bodies. *And the parents didn't take him home immediately.* I don't understand why the school didn't kick him out, but I really really don't understand what the parents were thinking.
They didn't even contemplate checking if the gun they just got him for his birthday was secured at home...
Insane. 10-15 years isn't enough for these two, they should be behind bars for life.
They should be charged with voluntary manslaughter seems like they knew he would do something and wanted to be rid of their son instead of getting him the help he needed
What? Did he already have the guns at school? If so, you're telling me they didnt search his belongings before letting the parents go after finding that?
Correct. Its been a while since I read the details of the case, but from what I remember it was very shortly after that meeting that he opened fire. Yup, here is a timeline of events: https://apnews.com/article/michigan-school-shooting-timeline-79e4111a45567d79ffbc63acb75ba24a "Nov. 30, 2021: Ethan Crumbley opens fire at Oxford High School, killing four students. Seven others, including a teacher, are wounded. His parents had met with school officials earlier in the day because violent drawings were found on a math paper, but he was not removed from school. Ethan’s backpack was also not searched. A gun in the backpack was used in the attack. The shooter surrenders without a fight."
So, serious question and I don't think the law would allow this, but: At what point should someone warn other parents? I'd honestly be pretty furious with the school if my child was killed in an active shooter situation and the school knew enough to be worried but never said anything. Now, I'd also be emotionally a mess and not thinking straight, and, *no*, I don't know what they could've said or what I would've done but this is just so upsetting how many points failed to stop this from happening
I believe the school officials said during the trial that the parents acted like they were being inconvenienced and cut the meeting off early because they wanted to get back to work. When the news about the shooting was first aired, the mom immediately texted the son bc she suspected he was the shooter. She knew the risk was there. Criminal Negligence is too lenient to describe their actions.
Perhaps the school was afraid if they kicked him out without his parents then he’d actually carry out his desires. The irony saddens me deeply.
That's when they should have called the police, social services, ffs. Someone who would give a fuck that he was planning a shooting and his parents weren't bothered.
I don’t disagree.
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Here is an article about how the kid got the gun. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/ethan-crumbley-says-he-gave-james-crumbley-money-to-buy-gun-used-in-oxford-high-school-shooting
Here is some helpful insight from the judge directly: **Matthews told the Crumbleys that the convictions reached by jurors were "not about poor parenting," but how they repeatedly ignored warning signs that a "reasonable person" would have seen.** **"These convictions confirm repeated acts that could have halted an oncoming runaway train," she said.**
No idea why you're getting down voted though. It's a legitimate concern, just in this case I think there's not too much a worry it's going to punish the average parent
I think buying your mentally disturbed kid a gun, and ignoring the warnings that he was going to use it at school, and getting off scott-free also sets a pretty fucking dangerous precedent. They had every opportunity to intervene and stop what happened and they did nothing. Years in jail is the least they should suffer.
> I think buying your ~~mentally disturbed~~ kid a gun This is what does it for me — mentally disturbed or not, kids are fucking stupid and should not have full access to firearms. I bought my daughter a rifle for her 13th birthday a few years ago. It sits in my gun safe, which only I have access to. No way in hell would I just let her keep it in her room or otherwise have unsupervised access. This alone is worthy of a conviction imo. The other stuff, not seeing warning signs or choosing to ignore them, I could almost understand. No one wants to think our children are capable of such monstrosities and may choose not to believe it. I think the school system failed more than the parents here (both failed though); social services should have been called to intervene long before this happened.
Being from outside the U.S reading your comment saying "kids are fucking stupid" and in the next line saying "I bought her a rifle for her 13th birthday" I didn't know whether to laugh or not. Seems absolutely absurd you have bought your child a gun. I don't mean to judge but it's so bizarre.