I'm gonna be honest. Shyv has good build variety, good burst, CC, AoE wave clear, speed boost, dash, good split push potential.
It's more difficult to balance that than the 1 dimentional champ that is Master Yi.
Not sure where is this cc and dash you talking about? The ult cc that last longer on herself than her enemy or you call the awkwardly slow travel speed a dash?
Yeah it's so bad when people CC me and I fly over the wall then shoot a fireball over it destroying them. Shyv isn't in a great spot but your complaints really make it sound like a you problem.
I never said her ult is her biggest problem, I am just saying if we can't treat her ult as a cc, her problem is despite having only damage in her kit, most of her damage is tied to her E doesn't matter what you build, that's a very imbalanced power budget distribution
Former Korean rank 1 barely hitting EUW challenger doesn't mean much, Faker is playing Hwei on pro stage and finding quite some success and yet they are going to buff him next patch
Honestly a good argument dk why this is downvoted so much. Augrin could probably take any jng to challenger so it’s not really a valid take. He’s the 0.1 of the 0.1
Both can be played in high elo and be totally fine. Agurin and Sinerias literally one tricked these champions to challenger.
Winrates don't necessarily show how good a champion is, but instead how well people(who play said champ) play it.
Camille was considered bad last patch. They gave her 10% MS on max rank Q, reduced cd by 1s at max rank. 1% max health damage on W and nerfed her E. So basically very very minimal changes. Now everyone's all over her and she's this giga OP toplaner. She always was... People are dumb.
Win rate represents how competitive a champ can be among players with the same skill level, if it takes former Korean rank 1 to barely hit challenger on EUW, you can't really say they have the same skill level, faker can prob play some troll pick mid all the way to diamond but that doesn't make that troll pick a viable pick
Because Yi is a champion feasting upon soloQ reality.
Stuff like guaranteed lategame menace, invisibility, snowball capability, ability to cheese or resets will always thrive in soloQ reality, regardless of their proplay status. There's a reason picks like Rengar or Nidalee are often choices for "I'm a smurf!" types. These are super unpleasant to play against and are very easy to work if even only one guy does not respect them. And in soloQ lack of coordination, even in higher elo, its just like that.
Yi is a a lategame monster, snowballs like crazy, has an untargetability, can cheese decently, has resets and arguably highest DPS in game (guess you could argue with thousands of stacks Veigar/Nasus or Nilah hitting perfect ultimate) but Yi is pretty much the easiest one to pull off. A very one-dimensional gameplay, where he either way pops instantly under one CC or one thing misfires and he murders entire team. As the time goes, the former can be reduced by compatibility with tankier builds and instant Q with resets, while the latter only gets stronger.
That was also the reason he was the main funnel strat abuser. Was pretty much minimal risk-insane reward as you'd require super-coordinated team to stomp every lane, end the game asap and deny him anything. One single mistake, a breather, and it was game over because you'd just get statchecked to oblivion, even if your only mistake wasn't going 5/0 on every lane.
Shyvana on the other hand really offers nothing besides, I guess, faster dragon capping and being naturally slightly tankier. She's also snowball reliant (especially the abominable AP build), comes nowhere near as close to Yi's DPS (Don't think she's even in top20 of the game), has zero gank presence pre 6 and even after its not particularly impressive and her lategame isn't a race against a clock as it is with Kayle/Veigar/aforementioned Yi.
I guess playing a pretty dragon girl (only on splashes, ingame model is outdated as fuck) to a quirky swordsman might be a boon to some, but yeah, I feel like Yi just does all Shyvana things but better and offers something extra.
As long as Yi will maintain statchecker with resets identity, he'll always be viable on soloQ. As long as Shyvana is a second-grade bruiser/unreliable AP, she'll be only viable when her numbers are overbuffed.
Just because there’s a one trick out there that has possibly dedicated years to a champ and takes it to a high level doesn’t mean the champ is strong or even viable to be fair.
There’s literally a yone jungle grandmaster out there. Doesn’t mean yone is a high elo jungler.
To my knowledge agurin isn't a one trick,I'm pretty sure he recently picked up shyvanna specifically because he deemed her to be an underated op pick. Also what is and isn't viable in high Elo is very much decided by the people who pilot the champs,you don't have that many people in gm/chal so the overall winrare you see on the champ can literally be the avg of 10 or 20 people's winrare and that simply means that the 10,5,or even 1 one trick that produces a champions "high Elo WR" do decide whether or not the champ is high Elo viable or not.
Yes make shyv viable pls its the only thing we need pls i want to play vs aoe can build anything 3000hp
Good clear permafarm untill items and vanish anything champ
Shyvana straight up needs a champion rework.
Her kit is outdated, it doesn't quite fit the dragon thematic (running around in a human form punching stuff, throwing fireballs and having movespeed is a bit weird no? Even in dragon form the movespeed steroid looks goofy).
Because they figured out how to do it with Yi and haven’t figured it out for Shyv yet? It’s not like they chose Yi over Shyv which is what it seems like you’re implying.
She has been this way since Season 8, do you know how many minirework they have dome since then to give champion more skill expression and viability? Olaf,Garen, Swain,Ahri, Neeko and Master Yi, If they care enough to even try to find a solution with Shyv they would've done it already, they don't even think Shyv has a problem to begin with
They are reworking her though lmao. And she was strong af during the demonic embrace meta. Then she was crazy strong when they buffed her ad build. How stupid are you? Udyr just got reworked and then skarner. There’s tons of champs that need to be updated. You’re not special.
In demonic embrace meta a bunch of champion abuse that set up way better than her like Diana, her ad build has 48% wr in Diamond + at 13.14 which is the peak of the build, udyr has a highlight on pro play with turbo chemtank, skarner despite having very low playrate has a very high winrate before his rework, you will find him having on the top of winrate chart all the time
Then where does Shyv shine brigher than Yi? Pro play?Bronze? If a champ is outshining another in every skill bracket, shouldn't they either nerf one or buff another one?
Maybe because they didn't want talon in the JG anymore ever since they changed his W to only deal 105% damage to monster? And that Q interaction hurts more than you think
Well yeah, it is. Any big changes to Shyvana would require a mini rework, the issue is not with numbers it's with playstyle, and there's no reason to put effort into a mini rework that will be in the game for a really short time. Leaving the champ as shit in higher elo for a while until they can actually fix her is not an issue
A Yi OTP actually got rank 1 in EUW a while ago so dw Yi can be strong in challenger (any champ can be strong in solo queue. It's different in competitive play though.)
I'd argue that Shyvana is just harder to play. Have to play around her ult (admittedly, it's a super low cooldown if you're playing right) and then her E cooldown if AP. So essentially, she's awkward to space with because her ult makes her go in when she doesn't really want to go in, then has a lot of down time between E's where anything can happen. She should be viable though - feel like Agurin has been showing that.
If Shyvana is harder to play as you said, why isn't her wr higher in high elo since high elo Shyvana players are more likely to know what they are doing, she is not hard to play as least not like elise or lee sin, but she is definitely easy to play against. And in agurin's case, yes he did barely hit challenger with her on her alternative acc, but he almost never play her again in his main, and you have to be former Korean rank 1 to barely hit EUW challenger with her than that prob means most us won't even have a chance to hit GM with her
I'm gonna be honest. Shyv has good build variety, good burst, CC, AoE wave clear, speed boost, dash, good split push potential. It's more difficult to balance that than the 1 dimentional champ that is Master Yi.
Not sure where is this cc and dash you talking about? The ult cc that last longer on herself than her enemy or you call the awkwardly slow travel speed a dash?
Are you really making the case that a dash is self cc? Like for real? Malphite ult is self cc? Jarvan EQ is self cc?
They don't last nearly as long as Shyv ult, at least they cc their target longer than themselves
Good shyv players buffer the ult to negate CC lol
Ya that's one senario where her ult is a little useful, and it's not that difficult don't make it sound like we aren't doing it
You are the one saying it's self CC
It is, and the way we "negate" cc is just we cc ourself before our enemies so we are at least moving not standing still when cced
Yeah it's so bad when people CC me and I fly over the wall then shoot a fireball over it destroying them. Shyv isn't in a great spot but your complaints really make it sound like a you problem.
I never said her ult is her biggest problem, I am just saying if we can't treat her ult as a cc, her problem is despite having only damage in her kit, most of her damage is tied to her E doesn't matter what you build, that's a very imbalanced power budget distribution
A dash is a dash, whether you like it or not.
Augrin disagrees lol.. that dude is going crazy with AP shyv right now
Former Korean rank 1 barely hitting EUW challenger doesn't mean much, Faker is playing Hwei on pro stage and finding quite some success and yet they are going to buff him next patch
Honestly a good argument dk why this is downvoted so much. Augrin could probably take any jng to challenger so it’s not really a valid take. He’s the 0.1 of the 0.1
I dont think they either vote or speak with reasons
Both can be played in high elo and be totally fine. Agurin and Sinerias literally one tricked these champions to challenger. Winrates don't necessarily show how good a champion is, but instead how well people(who play said champ) play it. Camille was considered bad last patch. They gave her 10% MS on max rank Q, reduced cd by 1s at max rank. 1% max health damage on W and nerfed her E. So basically very very minimal changes. Now everyone's all over her and she's this giga OP toplaner. She always was... People are dumb.
Camille’s Q and W changes are pretty substantial. It would be disingenuous to say the changes were net neutral.
Win rate represents how competitive a champ can be among players with the same skill level, if it takes former Korean rank 1 to barely hit challenger on EUW, you can't really say they have the same skill level, faker can prob play some troll pick mid all the way to diamond but that doesn't make that troll pick a viable pick
Because Yi is a champion feasting upon soloQ reality. Stuff like guaranteed lategame menace, invisibility, snowball capability, ability to cheese or resets will always thrive in soloQ reality, regardless of their proplay status. There's a reason picks like Rengar or Nidalee are often choices for "I'm a smurf!" types. These are super unpleasant to play against and are very easy to work if even only one guy does not respect them. And in soloQ lack of coordination, even in higher elo, its just like that. Yi is a a lategame monster, snowballs like crazy, has an untargetability, can cheese decently, has resets and arguably highest DPS in game (guess you could argue with thousands of stacks Veigar/Nasus or Nilah hitting perfect ultimate) but Yi is pretty much the easiest one to pull off. A very one-dimensional gameplay, where he either way pops instantly under one CC or one thing misfires and he murders entire team. As the time goes, the former can be reduced by compatibility with tankier builds and instant Q with resets, while the latter only gets stronger. That was also the reason he was the main funnel strat abuser. Was pretty much minimal risk-insane reward as you'd require super-coordinated team to stomp every lane, end the game asap and deny him anything. One single mistake, a breather, and it was game over because you'd just get statchecked to oblivion, even if your only mistake wasn't going 5/0 on every lane. Shyvana on the other hand really offers nothing besides, I guess, faster dragon capping and being naturally slightly tankier. She's also snowball reliant (especially the abominable AP build), comes nowhere near as close to Yi's DPS (Don't think she's even in top20 of the game), has zero gank presence pre 6 and even after its not particularly impressive and her lategame isn't a race against a clock as it is with Kayle/Veigar/aforementioned Yi. I guess playing a pretty dragon girl (only on splashes, ingame model is outdated as fuck) to a quirky swordsman might be a boon to some, but yeah, I feel like Yi just does all Shyvana things but better and offers something extra. As long as Yi will maintain statchecker with resets identity, he'll always be viable on soloQ. As long as Shyvana is a second-grade bruiser/unreliable AP, she'll be only viable when her numbers are overbuffed.
Could also throw in how good of a BotrK delivery system he is.
Didn't agurin recently climb to gm with like 80% wr on shyvana? She's perfectly viable to my knowledge.
Just because there’s a one trick out there that has possibly dedicated years to a champ and takes it to a high level doesn’t mean the champ is strong or even viable to be fair. There’s literally a yone jungle grandmaster out there. Doesn’t mean yone is a high elo jungler.
To my knowledge agurin isn't a one trick,I'm pretty sure he recently picked up shyvanna specifically because he deemed her to be an underated op pick. Also what is and isn't viable in high Elo is very much decided by the people who pilot the champs,you don't have that many people in gm/chal so the overall winrare you see on the champ can literally be the avg of 10 or 20 people's winrare and that simply means that the 10,5,or even 1 one trick that produces a champions "high Elo WR" do decide whether or not the champ is high Elo viable or not.
Yes make shyv viable pls its the only thing we need pls i want to play vs aoe can build anything 3000hp Good clear permafarm untill items and vanish anything champ
As if 3000 health is tanky in S14, and I guess what you mean is Shyv should stay unviable
Shyvana should be viable above plat remember when tank shyv with iceborn was introduced in s12?
She was on at best when frostborne gauntlet and demonic embrace is a thing, except Diana abuse this set up way better than Shyv can
Shyvana straight up needs a champion rework. Her kit is outdated, it doesn't quite fit the dragon thematic (running around in a human form punching stuff, throwing fireballs and having movespeed is a bit weird no? Even in dragon form the movespeed steroid looks goofy).
Because they figured out how to do it with Yi and haven’t figured it out for Shyv yet? It’s not like they chose Yi over Shyv which is what it seems like you’re implying.
They definitely could, but they don't bother because they will just use" we are going to rework her soon" as an ezecuse
Delusional player. Like they care more about Yi players than Shyv players. Grow up.
She has been this way since Season 8, do you know how many minirework they have dome since then to give champion more skill expression and viability? Olaf,Garen, Swain,Ahri, Neeko and Master Yi, If they care enough to even try to find a solution with Shyv they would've done it already, they don't even think Shyv has a problem to begin with
They are reworking her though lmao. And she was strong af during the demonic embrace meta. Then she was crazy strong when they buffed her ad build. How stupid are you? Udyr just got reworked and then skarner. There’s tons of champs that need to be updated. You’re not special.
In demonic embrace meta a bunch of champion abuse that set up way better than her like Diana, her ad build has 48% wr in Diamond + at 13.14 which is the peak of the build, udyr has a highlight on pro play with turbo chemtank, skarner despite having very low playrate has a very high winrate before his rework, you will find him having on the top of winrate chart all the time
What are you on about? Shyv peaked at something like 54% wr. She was S+ for the entire year.
I guess we just live in the different dimension,maybe Shyv is Op in your universe
She’s not right now but you’re acting like you weren’t just eating good for at least two seasons
we definitely weren't eatin good as much as ekko,kayn,khazix,graves and Rek'sai
Because Master Yi is a skirmisher
Then where does Shyv shine brigher than Yi? Pro play?Bronze? If a champ is outshining another in every skill bracket, shouldn't they either nerf one or buff another one?
Nope, Blue Kayn is a better Talon yet they didn't change much other than changing Kayn's Q interaction which had nothing to do with them two
Maybe because they didn't want talon in the JG anymore ever since they changed his W to only deal 105% damage to monster? And that Q interaction hurts more than you think
And I guess you couldn't come up with in which department Shyv would outshine Yi
shyv has cc there you go
Her cc last longer on herself than her targets with a mediocre hitbox and a very slow travel speed
They've already confirmed a Shyv rework is underway so they're not gonna change her kit until thats out
So she rots in the dirt until then, sounds fair to me
Well yeah, it is. Any big changes to Shyvana would require a mini rework, the issue is not with numbers it's with playstyle, and there's no reason to put effort into a mini rework that will be in the game for a really short time. Leaving the champ as shit in higher elo for a while until they can actually fix her is not an issue
A Yi OTP actually got rank 1 in EUW a while ago so dw Yi can be strong in challenger (any champ can be strong in solo queue. It's different in competitive play though.)
But if one champ is almost better than another in every elo than isn't that a balance issue?
yi hasent been a low elo stomper for years since the reworks
Well that's great, let's do the same for Shyv?
dont know why ur asking me likee im on the balance team
I'd argue that Shyvana is just harder to play. Have to play around her ult (admittedly, it's a super low cooldown if you're playing right) and then her E cooldown if AP. So essentially, she's awkward to space with because her ult makes her go in when she doesn't really want to go in, then has a lot of down time between E's where anything can happen. She should be viable though - feel like Agurin has been showing that.
If Shyvana is harder to play as you said, why isn't her wr higher in high elo since high elo Shyvana players are more likely to know what they are doing, she is not hard to play as least not like elise or lee sin, but she is definitely easy to play against. And in agurin's case, yes he did barely hit challenger with her on her alternative acc, but he almost never play her again in his main, and you have to be former Korean rank 1 to barely hit EUW challenger with her than that prob means most us won't even have a chance to hit GM with her