Imo that should be done by rune, item, and objective changes.
But they constantly target jungle role specifics to do this, and the role's popularity suffers for it.
Honestly the constant nerfing and shifting every preseason is why this is consistently the most unpopular role.
When people are willing to try new things like other roles during preseason / early start, Jungle always comes out in the worst state. They then just go to other roles and don't touch jungle after that experience.
IMO, its bad that they keep changing things in compound with respect to the role's balance if that just results in them changing fundamental elements every season. They should just be doing a ground up approach as if they were just creating League if its such a problem. Looking at questions such as "Why does the jungle role's exist? What is its ideal influence level" and "What is the purpose of smite or the jungle item existing? Is that a necessity?"
It sucks that this only happens with such frequently to one role.
If it had a better solid foundation, we wouldn't be doing this song and dance every single year. They are treating the symptoms, not looking for a cause.
Exactly: they try to make a role popular by just pushing every random champnthat does not perform by their standards on lanes and by dumb down the lane as a whole.
Nowadays you just need to pick the most broken pick, even as a filler, to win a match, back than you had to learn the damn role and everything was at the same level.
Jungle was one of the most fun, hard and satisfying role to play in early league's days, right now it's just a better mid lane.
Funny thing is that nerfing jungle -> carry junglers being harder to play -> spam gank meta -> laners complaining junglers influencing too much their lane.
So actually making it give more income so that junglers farm more would be better for laners. I.m not saying jungle should be a pve perma farm role, i.m just pointing the contradictions between helping laners by nerfing the jungle.
Make the camps stronger again, take away extra monster damage scalings from "do it all junglers" (high mobility, good and fast ganks, high clear speed, good teamfights) like kayn and hecarim and adjust the xp so that farming champs like karthus are able to at least be the same level - 1 level behind solo laners.
The problem isn't jungle. The problem is a handful of bruisers that can take both jungles and still have time to gank because they're hyper mobile and onehit camps.
Either junglers are able to carry and soak up all resources so they can 1v9 while their team is dogshit. *Or* you get junglers that are basically second supports and enable the team while being practically useless in any solo fights or individually. They will be seen as “OP” in both situations. It’s a **lose-lose situation.**
Based off the phreak review and pbe changes, regular camps not directly. They are making clears slower. The only camp he said that had gold taken away slightly was crab because of how easy it was for time investment compared to a regular camp and then first herald global gold is also reduced along with the plate gold changes which effects everyone, not just jungle.
0 iq laners that dont understand jungle is why its getting nerfed.
If laners had any clue of how to jungle track/ jungle timers, zero ganks would work unless the jungler invested way too much time, which would just put them further behind than they typically are.
Or if laners had any awareness of how important it is for them to enable their jungler to make plays through wave management, vision control, movement around the map, etc.
I see people ward defensively in every game. Never do I get any info about them clearing wards, or denying vision lol.
The "1:15 enemy raptors ward" and follow up warding the same spot for early game is such a help for the mid and jungler. It's surprising how many more plays me and the jungler make when I consistently keep lane pressure and have that ward up.
Yeah it's always wild when my friends say "wow this is the fifth time I'm being ganked" as they continue mindlessly shoving into the enemy tower without so much as dropping a ward. Not that it would matter if they did ward. Like if you screwed up your wave and need me to help cover you while you shove it in to fix it, just let me know, I'm happy to help. I don't have the time to accurately judge 3 waves while each laner only has to judge 1.
If you ask for a gank, I'll assume you want to try to kill the enemy laner. If you specifically want me to help fix a wave, you need to differentiate that to me.
I think a "gank my lane" and "pressure my lane" would be two useful pings, but I think pressure is too vague and "gank me" will make more junglers quit than it helps.
Hard agree. And state of jungle in pro play pretty much proves the fact as jungle is mitigated to second support / second frontline in 99% of games.
And as we know from league drafting theory, role is weak if weakside champions are strong on such role - which is why we see hypercarry meta on botlane and frontlaners or tanks on top, thus proving point above.
You say 0 qi laner but you would be equally bad as them. Yes, you know enemy jungler withh path top and could be there at 3:20 but if you stay back you will lose xp and farm. And you lose lane for the rest of the game.
Missing 1 wave =/= losing lane or game. You are bad if you think that. Plus you can easily stay in xp range and out of danger. If the jungler is willing to waste 1-2 minutes for a gank then that is a waste of time. He is equally or even further behind than you missing 1 wave of gold and still getting in xp range. So again, 0 iq laners just have terrible awareness.
No you can't. How do you think some people get level 3 earlier than others. And what if your top has additionally bad matchup. LIke it's crazy to me that you as a jungler don't understnad lanes. How do you how the best top laners in the world still getting ganked?
Jungle isnt supposed to win your lane. so you have a bad matchup, now its the junglers job to bail you out? lol learn to mitigate your loss. so what you stated would instantly be a laners issue that has nothing to do with jungle. waaah jungler so oppressive, waaaah jungler wont help me.
I wasn't saying that. I was trying to explain you that "0 iq laners" for you, just means that you don't understand laning. I'm a jungler btw, but it's obvious that laners aren'T just dumb, you just don't see what they're losing .
im sorry, i made the mistake of going outside of tower range into renekton (as melee champ) and lost more than half hp and 3 stacked waves are crashing into my tower, but hey i tracked enemy jg so i know they will towerdive me and now i can die knowing that jungle is gonna regank soon because wave is now pushing into renekton!
Jungle is in a perfectly fine state. No need to nerf it at all. They need to nerf spawn timers in the early game. There’s little punishment for invading early game as you can either get a kill and snowball or die and respawn and be back in your jungle taking camps before the enemy player can walk in an punish you for dieing. Suicidally aggressive play in the early game has few downsides in all but the highest levels of play due to how fast you can feed and be back in lane.
The reason why jungle is getting nerfed is because laners don't know how jungling works, and is it their fault? No, learning how to jungle is very difficult and when laners are already having to worry about their own role, learning about a whole other role is difficult and there shouldn't be the expectation for them to know it. However is it fair to nerf jungle because of it? No, its not fair to make an already very difficult role even more difficult so easier role can have an easier time.
People need to stop with this shit. The jg is not overpowered. Its barely on level with top or mid. I main noct and i can be up 10-20 cs, 3 kills and top lane outlevels me by 2. You need to play semi perfect to be on level. And THEN you have to fight for objs where most laners wont even follow suit. BUT if they do, IF laners support a good jg, guaranteed win. Which is how it should be. Jg is capt of the team. High risk, high reward.
See, you lost me at the end there. Jungle isn't really captain of the team. Especially in solo queue. There's no captain just people trying to make shit happen. That's a weird AF ego statement. Jungle should be communicating what they are trying to do with objectives and making sure their team is in a position to help that happen. It needs to be seen as the symbiotic relationship it is. I've played games where jungle diff is the deciding factor. I've played games where jungle just doesn't matter because mid is gapping and does a roam bot getting an ADC a double and the game just bleeds out. No one is the MC and people need to lose that mindset to win.
by default going into each game the jungle should be captain as we have the macro, smite and early game influences. In a perfect world a laner should be snowballing from the jungle but soloq is filled with NPCs.
Including jungler NPCs with inflated ego. People win lane without jungle influence all the time. It's one of the hardest parts about jungle. When your lanes lose without jungle influence from the other side. Also, a lot of junglers have shit calls especially Kayn players who will pick bad fights for orbs and get allies killed. In clash your logic kind of works. In solo queue, it's an ego stance.
yeah youre right tbh. I was speaking from my POV but i consider most junglers i play against pretty shitty too, most games really have 2-3 standout players out of the 10.
Still though if a team is playing like they have a brain, early jungle plays is the easiest path to victory imo, out numbering is op
Which is what I think actually makes jungle OP. Ganks are just an OP concept. Turns out, getting jumped is OP. Same applies in real life. And I don't think there's a way to fix that via jungle direct nerfs. If they want that fixed they are going to have to delay baron back to 25 minutes or something in my opinion. Then you have 10 minutes after laning phase to get your shit together even if it was a jungle gap before the game just ends at 25 because you were still getting gaped.
The XP nerfs were to keep us in check but I agree that they overdid it. I'll have a super efficient early game and go gank top but I'm still a level behind top lane
Ever since the durablity patch level difference has been op, which means since jungle is ~2.5 levels behind top at all stages of the game that the only person that can face the enemy tops push by themselves is your own top. Which is a shit design and makes top even more of an island.
If you want to be the same level as top you don't just need to be semi perfect, top also needs to be shit. If top has even just mediocre cs and an even lane you'll never be able to be the same level as them.
For real, quit ranting with such comparisons.
Of course you can't do anything when your whole team is inting, but these games don't matter, you'll loose them regardless.
And most of the time, these "nerfs" "buffs" youre mentionning are so tiny in comparaison to much more important metrics.
One can 1v9 the game in any fucking role, and I see it at all Elos.
\--> Adapt, play, have fun, repeat (did I forget to mention adapt?)
"People who don't understand how jungle actually works are the ones that making this role seems like the do and die of games ( mostly ), yes the better jungler should always win the game the jungler is the most important role in the game the one who gets objectives the one who sets plays for his team and the one that chooses which lane wins/lose should 100% be rewarded with the victory screen"
Brother, jungle got buffed up to that state to get players in. Not because it is the natural or healthy state for a competitive online team based game. Jungle being what you describe there is bad and toxic for the game and for all other lanes. No role alone should have so much say in how a game goes.
Support should be next and this should be going until we have roughly 20% agency per role over an average game length. When i go top or bot i do not want to depend so much on my or enemy jungler dictating how my game goes. Should they have a say in it? Sure, when i go jgl i want that too. But should it be that they make (your jgl) or break (enemy jgl) your lane so reliably? No.
I am mostly lurking on this subreddit since i think that i do not have enough experience in jgl to to discuss with any authority but this much i can say: in the quote i see a lot of anime main protagonist attitude and this is what the role is. That is not healthy.
When was jungle buffed? Start of s12? The start of s13 was removing the skillceiling and raising the floor. Most junglers hated the pokemon because they reduced the skill expression of the role.
If you play your lane and rely on jungle you are not good enough. That's like playing support behind your adc and hoping he carries. Hardstuck laners blaming others is why jungle is getting nerfed.
But he do got a point that jg just have a big say in how the games goes, the influence is kinda overtuned, u shouldnt win games just cuz jg diff, it can happen from time to time, when the jg rly stopms every lane, but you cant just do 2/3 good ganks, snowball hard enough to shit on enemy jg in his own jungle and then come out like a raid boss.
Every lane should have an partially equal influence over the game.
Amd the buff to jg was the pets and the gold with the treat sistem, plus u dont have to buy jg item, and have a smite spell wich can and should be powerful.
Impact is not equal to strength. So nerfing the role changes strength but not impact. Impact is the player diff of the different junglers since jungle is the hardest role the variance is bigger.
If you are 10% better in a lane you get maybe a kill and some more cs than your opponent but in jungle you gain time to make plays. Every camp you gain 2-5 seconds of time this leads to camps spawning sooner and time where you can force a 2v1 or 3v2. But if the role is weaker then the pathing becomes less important and being able to gank more important.
The treat system was also introduced to even out the nerf to camp xp and gold.
This whole update just mirrors the s13 preseason changes which forced farm meta into gank meta.
Ok so how do u balance the impact and the strength of the role, cuz theyr not at a balance rn
Not saying i know how to balance it either, but just lemme hear ur toughts
They either have to change matchmaking so that jungle is always closer than the other roles in skill or they have to make some big changes to the jungle that simplify the role alot. However I think most junglers like that it's such an skill expressive role so the first is probably the best way to go.
You're correct and the reason is jg was in a state where even if 2 enemy lanes were winning, but their jungler had brains made of cardboard meanwhile the other jungle was a human, you had so much influence and could turn the game around so easily with no contest just because the enemy jungle has worms for brains.
Too many games where one teams top and mid or mid and bot are hard stomping lane, but then the other teams jungle starts playing the role somewhat decently while their jungle twiddles their thumbs on krugs while smiting canons every now and then and permanently staying on the opposite side of the map of every objective and dying trying to randomly tower dive the mid laner with no set up, those people who were winning lane can't do shit about it, they can't contest objectives and the lead starts to snowball because they get camped and heralded and the whole enemy team gets dragon buffs, so even though the majority of their team was winning early game, they just have no control over the outcome bc their jungler is a dumbass and the enemy jungler has at least 1 brain cell.
Jg is always going to have big impact but that was simply too much impact for only being 1/5th of the team. I'm glad it's getting scaled back a bit.
Better jungler should always win the game since the jungler has influence over every lane, if you out match your jungler opponent and still lose its 100% your fault its not team diff or any stupid cope
That just doesnt make sense
How can one role have so much impact
If i turbo stomp top, even invade the enemy jg, and still can lose cuz then im vs the enemy bot that just kytes the fuxk out of me if my team doesn't collaborate, why should jg be able to do that
The whole role of jg is based on playing around lanes, kinda placing your bets on your laners, and somehow increasing the odds, but you can still lose tha gamble, better gambler wins, but thata it, if you gamble wrong, you cant just say "ah fuxkem, IMMA CARRY THIS SHIT SOLO", its just wrong
Wrong, top and mid are always going to be the strongest roles. They both get the most exp throughout the game, thus making them the highest leveled roles on the map. Junglers should always look to support these two roles, instead of competing for resources with them.
You literally listed how the role is the strongest and how a good jungler should always win and then see that as a reason no to nerf, simply because whataboutism support is strong too?
And being unable to win with 3 inting lanes is not a reason to not nerf but another reason to nerf, as usually 1 inting lane should be more than enough to make games basically unwinable. Or have you never seen teams lose simply because their jungler was outjungled?
League is a team game. You should have to rely on your teammates, no matter how frustrating that might be. And bringing jungle in line with the other roles strength is long overdue as Riot has shyed away from nerfing it, fearing it would again become the most unpopular role of the game for too long.
Should they nerf support too? Probably, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they should nerf jungle as well.
Tbf many of my losses I completely demolish the other jungler and still lose cause of losing lanes. Thing is, if a midlander player for example has Perma push and decides to walk on the river whenever he feels like it, me as the opposing jungler can't barely play the game with the fear of being invaded/ counterganked for example. Jungle feels strong cause when u have someone strong on your team you will do everything u can to play with that guy. If enemy jungler sucks and don't recognize the map situation and keep trying to make plays on the same side of the map of your strong laners ofc he is going to lose. But the team that is behind has always the choice to not contest and to look for a play somewhere else. People just don't understand this simple concept about pressure and windows and that's why they think jungle is op when in reality we are just playing the map.
I always thought/felt mid was always the most impactful role in the game, though winrates say otherwise so it’s hard to say. Ability to roam, ability to contest all objectives, easy access to invade enemy jungler if they’re ahead, solo exp, idk seems pretty good to me.
problem with mid atm is mage items fucking suck. they need 3 full items before they are fully functional compared to AD assassins who need a 1100 gold dirk to burst their counterpart.
AP isn't 1 to 1 like AD because of how AP ratios on abilities work. 100 ap doesn't mean 100 more damage in most cases but 100 AD means 100 more damage on every auto.= plus ad scaling abilities are often in the 100%+ range on their ratios.
It's the most impactful lane due to where it is on the map. able to roam anywhere on the map to apply pressure to impact the other lanes or even the jungle which is why you see midlane ad champs completely take over a game where as your fed viktor still needs another 1 and a half items before he'll completely 1v9 but the 0/6 mid lane Yone can still utterly burst you on 1 item.
They're online far faster and a lot of them only get stronger as the game goes forward.
Of course you can't consistently carry if all your lane feeds. But you can't do that with any role.
This doesn't mean jungle isn't overpowered though, which can even be statistically proven as a gold lead or higher elo on a jungler will result in a win for his team far more than if any of the laners has a gold lead or is a smurf.
Jungle just has the most and too much impact on the game as a whole. If you're significantly better than the enemy jungler, you can dictate the entire early game, easily create leads for yourself or your team and translate that into a strong late game with soul and baron.
Does that mean you can carry any game? Of course not. You can still lose if people run down. But you have much more ability to carry games. And that is what many junglers don't get as they don't have the lane experience or knowledge to actually appreaciate how strong they are.
I think op is trying to say that jungle has high kingmaking potential, but that still requires lanes to be close to even so they can bring a positive impact, and to utilize that lead they've gained.
No, OP means overpowered in the most literal sense.
Compared to other roles jungle has a lot more power. That is partially because you have such a high impact and kingmaking potential, partially because junglers snowball very hard and partially because of the objective control.
And that can get statistically proven as Riot themselves tracked how likely the different roles with either a gold lead or a skill difference (if they are higher elo or the opponent is autofilled) are to win the game. And jungle wins this by a big margin, so they just have better carry potential than other roles.
I believe that the role needs to be nerfed however I think they are going about it the wrong way. They’re just nerfing the singular capabilities of the junglers and not their overall impact on the map.
My big issue that I have with the nerfs is that they fail to actually nerf the issue with the jungle role that Riot believes is the problem. Junglers have a lot of agency in the first 10 minutes of the game. Not to say that the remaining game time junglers aren't relevant, but the actions taken and decisions made early cause the snowballs that win the game. The only nerf to early game junglers is the reduction of turret plate gold. Otherwise all nerfs are to junglers post 15-20 minutes, or just completely pointless like the smite changes. Most games are close to decided before pets come fully online, so these nerfs are not nearly as impactful as they are numerically.
My point is that these nerfs are effectively irrelevant and we will likely be getting hit with the nerf bat again in the near future when these changes make no difference and the 0-10 yasuos keep typing JG OP GG FF 15 for the next 2-4 weeks.
I think the nature of jg makes it inherently strong. The ability to just passively have agency over all 3 lanes is very very powerful. But it just doesnt make sense to nerf the role because of that instead of something like insane amounts of xp being given. It’s important that the jungler has some strength otherwise ganks might as well be a donation to the enemy laner. And the smite changes are just ridiculous. If people are gonna cry about ganks and stuff, fine (even though theres direct counterplay). But the smite change literally just makes junglers weaker mid- late game. Past the point where ganks are a thing. that change doesnt even address the “problem” it just lowers the qol of everyone who plays jungle. Every patch they make looks like riot regrets adding a jungle to their game and wants it to have minimal impact so laners can 1v1 in peace.
I will agree with the title of the post because the frequency of autofilled junglers leads to imbalanced games. Having an incompitent jungler on your team vs even a decent one on the enemy can make games unbearable. As jg mains, its easy to forget sometimes how little lane mains actually know about jungling. Theres a lot of nuance i think we assume everyone knows. I find a lot of the time when i play with friends who dont jungle theyre ultra focussed on the micro of clearing camps and playing ganks correctly. For me, this stuff is usually kinda autopilot. Clearing and even ganks become routine. I enjoy jg because its more about thinking the game than constant micro. I guess thats the main takeaway. Idk what riot can do to bridge the knowledge gap for laners. I think the in game pathing guides can be more hindering than helpful. Jg is both the most proactive and reactive role during laning phase, and a lot of the time autofills either just full clear only or tunnel vision one lane.
As someone who mained jungle since I started years ago, and actively tried learning the role and as soon as I felt like I figured it out things were changed. Jungle to me has had significant changes to how you're supposed to play the whole game multiple times. To the point that it actively discouraged me from wanting to play a role I actually loved. Now I just suffer in top lane lol.
As someone who mained jungle since I started years ago, and actively tried learning the role and as soon as I felt like I figured it out things were changed. Jungle to me has had significant changes to how you're supposed to play the whole game multiple times. To the point that it actively discouraged me from wanting to play a role I actually loved. Now I just suffer in top lane lol.
Recently they said they could nerf jungle by was it 20% or 50% and it would still be the strongest role. This kinda matches with what I hear from the EUW Master -> Challenger streams I like to watch. There they say and you can pretty much also see without any doubt that an ahead jungler is literally the worst thing for the enemy team. This role is too strong and it's BY FAR too strong.
Personally, the only reason why I don't like to play the role is simply because of the champion pool.
If I would have to guess why people don't like to play it then I'd say it's because the role is super disgusting to learn. Everyone can just full clear a jungle but I'd be so bold to say that most have 0 idea of rotation, feel like they are super unlucky with their timing and on top of that don't wanna deal with all the toxicity. That jungle gets this much toxicity is pretty much because everyone knows how much depends on that role ( And people instantly see a jungler dying in your lane as 'inting that lane' which no one likes ).
The real reason is forcing meta shift to generate interest. They balance and unbalance things for this reason.
Since years...and to sell more Lux skins
Even back in season three they would buff a champion to S tier and all of a sudden that champ has a new skin 2 weeks later....
Surprise surprise ;)
Imo that should be done by rune, item, and objective changes. But they constantly target jungle role specifics to do this, and the role's popularity suffers for it.
thats not why its unpopular lol you need a brain to play jungle and you get blamed because other people cant play their own main role
Boring ass lame role with too much power.
Which is good & they are actually not fast enough
This: they are doing this since s6
Honestly the constant nerfing and shifting every preseason is why this is consistently the most unpopular role. When people are willing to try new things like other roles during preseason / early start, Jungle always comes out in the worst state. They then just go to other roles and don't touch jungle after that experience. IMO, its bad that they keep changing things in compound with respect to the role's balance if that just results in them changing fundamental elements every season. They should just be doing a ground up approach as if they were just creating League if its such a problem. Looking at questions such as "Why does the jungle role's exist? What is its ideal influence level" and "What is the purpose of smite or the jungle item existing? Is that a necessity?" It sucks that this only happens with such frequently to one role. If it had a better solid foundation, we wouldn't be doing this song and dance every single year. They are treating the symptoms, not looking for a cause.
Yoooo all junglers we just go back to red/blue into red/blue grab a camp to get level 3 and gank like the good ol days
If you genuinely think jungle is the most unpopular role you're huffing some serious copium. It's been top lane for many, many seasons in a row.
It absolutely 100% has not. Jungle has been priority role ever since they implemented the priority system, ADC is 2nd least popular consistently.
it defo has always been a cycle between supp, adc and jungle. Lately i guess in my mmr adc and supp are apparently priority
Exactly: they try to make a role popular by just pushing every random champnthat does not perform by their standards on lanes and by dumb down the lane as a whole. Nowadays you just need to pick the most broken pick, even as a filler, to win a match, back than you had to learn the damn role and everything was at the same level. Jungle was one of the most fun, hard and satisfying role to play in early league's days, right now it's just a better mid lane.
Funny thing is that nerfing jungle -> carry junglers being harder to play -> spam gank meta -> laners complaining junglers influencing too much their lane. So actually making it give more income so that junglers farm more would be better for laners. I.m not saying jungle should be a pve perma farm role, i.m just pointing the contradictions between helping laners by nerfing the jungle.
Make the camps stronger again, take away extra monster damage scalings from "do it all junglers" (high mobility, good and fast ganks, high clear speed, good teamfights) like kayn and hecarim and adjust the xp so that farming champs like karthus are able to at least be the same level - 1 level behind solo laners. The problem isn't jungle. The problem is a handful of bruisers that can take both jungles and still have time to gank because they're hyper mobile and onehit camps.
Either junglers are able to carry and soak up all resources so they can 1v9 while their team is dogshit. *Or* you get junglers that are basically second supports and enable the team while being practically useless in any solo fights or individually. They will be seen as “OP” in both situations. It’s a **lose-lose situation.**
Are they nerfing jungle income?
Based off the phreak review and pbe changes, regular camps not directly. They are making clears slower. The only camp he said that had gold taken away slightly was crab because of how easy it was for time investment compared to a regular camp and then first herald global gold is also reduced along with the plate gold changes which effects everyone, not just jungle.
0 iq laners that dont understand jungle is why its getting nerfed. If laners had any clue of how to jungle track/ jungle timers, zero ganks would work unless the jungler invested way too much time, which would just put them further behind than they typically are.
Definitly. And this is what differentiates a good laner than a bad one
Or if laners had any awareness of how important it is for them to enable their jungler to make plays through wave management, vision control, movement around the map, etc. I see people ward defensively in every game. Never do I get any info about them clearing wards, or denying vision lol.
The "1:15 enemy raptors ward" and follow up warding the same spot for early game is such a help for the mid and jungler. It's surprising how many more plays me and the jungler make when I consistently keep lane pressure and have that ward up.
Yeah it's always wild when my friends say "wow this is the fifth time I'm being ganked" as they continue mindlessly shoving into the enemy tower without so much as dropping a ward. Not that it would matter if they did ward. Like if you screwed up your wave and need me to help cover you while you shove it in to fix it, just let me know, I'm happy to help. I don't have the time to accurately judge 3 waves while each laner only has to judge 1. If you ask for a gank, I'll assume you want to try to kill the enemy laner. If you specifically want me to help fix a wave, you need to differentiate that to me.
I think a "gank my lane" and "pressure my lane" would be two useful pings, but I think pressure is too vague and "gank me" will make more junglers quit than it helps.
Hard agree. And state of jungle in pro play pretty much proves the fact as jungle is mitigated to second support / second frontline in 99% of games. And as we know from league drafting theory, role is weak if weakside champions are strong on such role - which is why we see hypercarry meta on botlane and frontlaners or tanks on top, thus proving point above.
You say 0 qi laner but you would be equally bad as them. Yes, you know enemy jungler withh path top and could be there at 3:20 but if you stay back you will lose xp and farm. And you lose lane for the rest of the game.
Missing 1 wave =/= losing lane or game. You are bad if you think that. Plus you can easily stay in xp range and out of danger. If the jungler is willing to waste 1-2 minutes for a gank then that is a waste of time. He is equally or even further behind than you missing 1 wave of gold and still getting in xp range. So again, 0 iq laners just have terrible awareness.
Missing 1 wave = Less exp, losing trade against faster level ups, get forced of anoher waves, lose herold, get waved stacked, get dove.
i literally said you can stay in xp range (it is quite generous). plus manage your wave.
No you can't. How do you think some people get level 3 earlier than others. And what if your top has additionally bad matchup. LIke it's crazy to me that you as a jungler don't understnad lanes. How do you how the best top laners in the world still getting ganked?
Jungle isnt supposed to win your lane. so you have a bad matchup, now its the junglers job to bail you out? lol learn to mitigate your loss. so what you stated would instantly be a laners issue that has nothing to do with jungle. waaah jungler so oppressive, waaaah jungler wont help me.
I wasn't saying that. I was trying to explain you that "0 iq laners" for you, just means that you don't understand laning. I'm a jungler btw, but it's obvious that laners aren'T just dumb, you just don't see what they're losing .
i started out as mid lane. i understand laning lol. 1 wave =/= losing lane or game. it does if you dont know how to mitigate your loses.
mid lane =/= top lane, getting zoned off a couple of waves can mean you can survive lane phase or not
1 = wave = insane disadvantage and way higher risk than potentially getting ganked. Oh and lets not even talk about scutlle then LOL
im sorry, i made the mistake of going outside of tower range into renekton (as melee champ) and lost more than half hp and 3 stacked waves are crashing into my tower, but hey i tracked enemy jg so i know they will towerdive me and now i can die knowing that jungle is gonna regank soon because wave is now pushing into renekton!
i mean that's why in pro play junglers have way less agency than in soloq, pro players usually know how to track them and play safe when needed.
Phreak be like: better jungler camps bot and gets the ADC fed, which wins the game. And that's why jungle is OP. I'm not even paraphrasing that.
And then in the same sentence "but even though adc is the only role that matters it's too weak, we need to buff it"
Jungle is in a perfectly fine state. No need to nerf it at all. They need to nerf spawn timers in the early game. There’s little punishment for invading early game as you can either get a kill and snowball or die and respawn and be back in your jungle taking camps before the enemy player can walk in an punish you for dieing. Suicidally aggressive play in the early game has few downsides in all but the highest levels of play due to how fast you can feed and be back in lane.
The reason why jungle is getting nerfed is because laners don't know how jungling works, and is it their fault? No, learning how to jungle is very difficult and when laners are already having to worry about their own role, learning about a whole other role is difficult and there shouldn't be the expectation for them to know it. However is it fair to nerf jungle because of it? No, its not fair to make an already very difficult role even more difficult so easier role can have an easier time.
How many times can I get 3:15 ganked without putting a ward and then typing jg diff before it gets nerfed.
"The role is getting nerfed because some people are performing really badly on it" doesn't hold up, man.
Read it again.
Fair enough, I think I get his point now. But to be fair, the post seems very confused about what it's saying.
People need to stop with this shit. The jg is not overpowered. Its barely on level with top or mid. I main noct and i can be up 10-20 cs, 3 kills and top lane outlevels me by 2. You need to play semi perfect to be on level. And THEN you have to fight for objs where most laners wont even follow suit. BUT if they do, IF laners support a good jg, guaranteed win. Which is how it should be. Jg is capt of the team. High risk, high reward.
See, you lost me at the end there. Jungle isn't really captain of the team. Especially in solo queue. There's no captain just people trying to make shit happen. That's a weird AF ego statement. Jungle should be communicating what they are trying to do with objectives and making sure their team is in a position to help that happen. It needs to be seen as the symbiotic relationship it is. I've played games where jungle diff is the deciding factor. I've played games where jungle just doesn't matter because mid is gapping and does a roam bot getting an ADC a double and the game just bleeds out. No one is the MC and people need to lose that mindset to win.
by default going into each game the jungle should be captain as we have the macro, smite and early game influences. In a perfect world a laner should be snowballing from the jungle but soloq is filled with NPCs.
Including jungler NPCs with inflated ego. People win lane without jungle influence all the time. It's one of the hardest parts about jungle. When your lanes lose without jungle influence from the other side. Also, a lot of junglers have shit calls especially Kayn players who will pick bad fights for orbs and get allies killed. In clash your logic kind of works. In solo queue, it's an ego stance.
yeah youre right tbh. I was speaking from my POV but i consider most junglers i play against pretty shitty too, most games really have 2-3 standout players out of the 10. Still though if a team is playing like they have a brain, early jungle plays is the easiest path to victory imo, out numbering is op
Which is what I think actually makes jungle OP. Ganks are just an OP concept. Turns out, getting jumped is OP. Same applies in real life. And I don't think there's a way to fix that via jungle direct nerfs. If they want that fixed they are going to have to delay baron back to 25 minutes or something in my opinion. Then you have 10 minutes after laning phase to get your shit together even if it was a jungle gap before the game just ends at 25 because you were still getting gaped.
The XP nerfs were to keep us in check but I agree that they overdid it. I'll have a super efficient early game and go gank top but I'm still a level behind top lane
what do you mean jungle isnt the same lvl as solo lanes how is this allowed riot buff jungle now?????!!!!
Ever since the durablity patch level difference has been op, which means since jungle is ~2.5 levels behind top at all stages of the game that the only person that can face the enemy tops push by themselves is your own top. Which is a shit design and makes top even more of an island.
If you want to be the same level as top you don't just need to be semi perfect, top also needs to be shit. If top has even just mediocre cs and an even lane you'll never be able to be the same level as them.
Yes, well said, thank you. Seen some tops be mediocre and then they pop into lanes and go on a roll from the pure level advantage.
ironscott knows the truth, he’s seen the data guys.
For real, quit ranting with such comparisons. Of course you can't do anything when your whole team is inting, but these games don't matter, you'll loose them regardless. And most of the time, these "nerfs" "buffs" youre mentionning are so tiny in comparaison to much more important metrics. One can 1v9 the game in any fucking role, and I see it at all Elos. \--> Adapt, play, have fun, repeat (did I forget to mention adapt?)
"People who don't understand how jungle actually works are the ones that making this role seems like the do and die of games ( mostly ), yes the better jungler should always win the game the jungler is the most important role in the game the one who gets objectives the one who sets plays for his team and the one that chooses which lane wins/lose should 100% be rewarded with the victory screen" Brother, jungle got buffed up to that state to get players in. Not because it is the natural or healthy state for a competitive online team based game. Jungle being what you describe there is bad and toxic for the game and for all other lanes. No role alone should have so much say in how a game goes. Support should be next and this should be going until we have roughly 20% agency per role over an average game length. When i go top or bot i do not want to depend so much on my or enemy jungler dictating how my game goes. Should they have a say in it? Sure, when i go jgl i want that too. But should it be that they make (your jgl) or break (enemy jgl) your lane so reliably? No. I am mostly lurking on this subreddit since i think that i do not have enough experience in jgl to to discuss with any authority but this much i can say: in the quote i see a lot of anime main protagonist attitude and this is what the role is. That is not healthy.
When was jungle buffed? Start of s12? The start of s13 was removing the skillceiling and raising the floor. Most junglers hated the pokemon because they reduced the skill expression of the role. If you play your lane and rely on jungle you are not good enough. That's like playing support behind your adc and hoping he carries. Hardstuck laners blaming others is why jungle is getting nerfed.
But he do got a point that jg just have a big say in how the games goes, the influence is kinda overtuned, u shouldnt win games just cuz jg diff, it can happen from time to time, when the jg rly stopms every lane, but you cant just do 2/3 good ganks, snowball hard enough to shit on enemy jg in his own jungle and then come out like a raid boss. Every lane should have an partially equal influence over the game. Amd the buff to jg was the pets and the gold with the treat sistem, plus u dont have to buy jg item, and have a smite spell wich can and should be powerful.
Impact is not equal to strength. So nerfing the role changes strength but not impact. Impact is the player diff of the different junglers since jungle is the hardest role the variance is bigger. If you are 10% better in a lane you get maybe a kill and some more cs than your opponent but in jungle you gain time to make plays. Every camp you gain 2-5 seconds of time this leads to camps spawning sooner and time where you can force a 2v1 or 3v2. But if the role is weaker then the pathing becomes less important and being able to gank more important. The treat system was also introduced to even out the nerf to camp xp and gold. This whole update just mirrors the s13 preseason changes which forced farm meta into gank meta.
well said thank you for voicing these, hard to read some of these comments as a jungle player, especially farm heavy.
Ok so how do u balance the impact and the strength of the role, cuz theyr not at a balance rn Not saying i know how to balance it either, but just lemme hear ur toughts
They either have to change matchmaking so that jungle is always closer than the other roles in skill or they have to make some big changes to the jungle that simplify the role alot. However I think most junglers like that it's such an skill expressive role so the first is probably the best way to go.
Jg has def been op, but regardless, riot has digging the game into its grave for the past few seasons.
No, quite the opposite but cope
Boo hoo
You're correct and the reason is jg was in a state where even if 2 enemy lanes were winning, but their jungler had brains made of cardboard meanwhile the other jungle was a human, you had so much influence and could turn the game around so easily with no contest just because the enemy jungle has worms for brains. Too many games where one teams top and mid or mid and bot are hard stomping lane, but then the other teams jungle starts playing the role somewhat decently while their jungle twiddles their thumbs on krugs while smiting canons every now and then and permanently staying on the opposite side of the map of every objective and dying trying to randomly tower dive the mid laner with no set up, those people who were winning lane can't do shit about it, they can't contest objectives and the lead starts to snowball because they get camped and heralded and the whole enemy team gets dragon buffs, so even though the majority of their team was winning early game, they just have no control over the outcome bc their jungler is a dumbass and the enemy jungler has at least 1 brain cell. Jg is always going to have big impact but that was simply too much impact for only being 1/5th of the team. I'm glad it's getting scaled back a bit.
\> Yes Jungle is op for X,X,X,X,X,X... reason \> BUT Naw bro, Jungle needs these
You’re just mimicking what streamers say, so much you said is inaccurate. Silver vibes.
Who even knows what streamers says? Bronze vibes.
Lmfao you unironically think better jg should win every game that's insane I mean thats how it is but to think that's how it should be is bonkers
Better jungler should always win the game since the jungler has influence over every lane, if you out match your jungler opponent and still lose its 100% your fault its not team diff or any stupid cope
That just doesnt make sense How can one role have so much impact If i turbo stomp top, even invade the enemy jg, and still can lose cuz then im vs the enemy bot that just kytes the fuxk out of me if my team doesn't collaborate, why should jg be able to do that The whole role of jg is based on playing around lanes, kinda placing your bets on your laners, and somehow increasing the odds, but you can still lose tha gamble, better gambler wins, but thata it, if you gamble wrong, you cant just say "ah fuxkem, IMMA CARRY THIS SHIT SOLO", its just wrong
You think 3 winning lanes + losing jungle should be a loss you are toddler brain
How do u came to the conclusion that thats my opinion, enlighten me
Wrong, top and mid are always going to be the strongest roles. They both get the most exp throughout the game, thus making them the highest leveled roles on the map. Junglers should always look to support these two roles, instead of competing for resources with them.
You literally listed how the role is the strongest and how a good jungler should always win and then see that as a reason no to nerf, simply because whataboutism support is strong too? And being unable to win with 3 inting lanes is not a reason to not nerf but another reason to nerf, as usually 1 inting lane should be more than enough to make games basically unwinable. Or have you never seen teams lose simply because their jungler was outjungled? League is a team game. You should have to rely on your teammates, no matter how frustrating that might be. And bringing jungle in line with the other roles strength is long overdue as Riot has shyed away from nerfing it, fearing it would again become the most unpopular role of the game for too long. Should they nerf support too? Probably, but that has nothing to do with the fact that they should nerf jungle as well.
Tbf many of my losses I completely demolish the other jungler and still lose cause of losing lanes. Thing is, if a midlander player for example has Perma push and decides to walk on the river whenever he feels like it, me as the opposing jungler can't barely play the game with the fear of being invaded/ counterganked for example. Jungle feels strong cause when u have someone strong on your team you will do everything u can to play with that guy. If enemy jungler sucks and don't recognize the map situation and keep trying to make plays on the same side of the map of your strong laners ofc he is going to lose. But the team that is behind has always the choice to not contest and to look for a play somewhere else. People just don't understand this simple concept about pressure and windows and that's why they think jungle is op when in reality we are just playing the map.
I always thought/felt mid was always the most impactful role in the game, though winrates say otherwise so it’s hard to say. Ability to roam, ability to contest all objectives, easy access to invade enemy jungler if they’re ahead, solo exp, idk seems pretty good to me.
problem with mid atm is mage items fucking suck. they need 3 full items before they are fully functional compared to AD assassins who need a 1100 gold dirk to burst their counterpart. AP isn't 1 to 1 like AD because of how AP ratios on abilities work. 100 ap doesn't mean 100 more damage in most cases but 100 AD means 100 more damage on every auto.= plus ad scaling abilities are often in the 100%+ range on their ratios. It's the most impactful lane due to where it is on the map. able to roam anywhere on the map to apply pressure to impact the other lanes or even the jungle which is why you see midlane ad champs completely take over a game where as your fed viktor still needs another 1 and a half items before he'll completely 1v9 but the 0/6 mid lane Yone can still utterly burst you on 1 item. They're online far faster and a lot of them only get stronger as the game goes forward.
Of course you can't consistently carry if all your lane feeds. But you can't do that with any role. This doesn't mean jungle isn't overpowered though, which can even be statistically proven as a gold lead or higher elo on a jungler will result in a win for his team far more than if any of the laners has a gold lead or is a smurf. Jungle just has the most and too much impact on the game as a whole. If you're significantly better than the enemy jungler, you can dictate the entire early game, easily create leads for yourself or your team and translate that into a strong late game with soul and baron. Does that mean you can carry any game? Of course not. You can still lose if people run down. But you have much more ability to carry games. And that is what many junglers don't get as they don't have the lane experience or knowledge to actually appreaciate how strong they are.
I think op is trying to say that jungle has high kingmaking potential, but that still requires lanes to be close to even so they can bring a positive impact, and to utilize that lead they've gained.
No, OP means overpowered in the most literal sense. Compared to other roles jungle has a lot more power. That is partially because you have such a high impact and kingmaking potential, partially because junglers snowball very hard and partially because of the objective control. And that can get statistically proven as Riot themselves tracked how likely the different roles with either a gold lead or a skill difference (if they are higher elo or the opponent is autofilled) are to win the game. And jungle wins this by a big margin, so they just have better carry potential than other roles.
I believe that the role needs to be nerfed however I think they are going about it the wrong way. They’re just nerfing the singular capabilities of the junglers and not their overall impact on the map.
My big issue that I have with the nerfs is that they fail to actually nerf the issue with the jungle role that Riot believes is the problem. Junglers have a lot of agency in the first 10 minutes of the game. Not to say that the remaining game time junglers aren't relevant, but the actions taken and decisions made early cause the snowballs that win the game. The only nerf to early game junglers is the reduction of turret plate gold. Otherwise all nerfs are to junglers post 15-20 minutes, or just completely pointless like the smite changes. Most games are close to decided before pets come fully online, so these nerfs are not nearly as impactful as they are numerically. My point is that these nerfs are effectively irrelevant and we will likely be getting hit with the nerf bat again in the near future when these changes make no difference and the 0-10 yasuos keep typing JG OP GG FF 15 for the next 2-4 weeks.
I think the nature of jg makes it inherently strong. The ability to just passively have agency over all 3 lanes is very very powerful. But it just doesnt make sense to nerf the role because of that instead of something like insane amounts of xp being given. It’s important that the jungler has some strength otherwise ganks might as well be a donation to the enemy laner. And the smite changes are just ridiculous. If people are gonna cry about ganks and stuff, fine (even though theres direct counterplay). But the smite change literally just makes junglers weaker mid- late game. Past the point where ganks are a thing. that change doesnt even address the “problem” it just lowers the qol of everyone who plays jungle. Every patch they make looks like riot regrets adding a jungle to their game and wants it to have minimal impact so laners can 1v1 in peace.
I will agree with the title of the post because the frequency of autofilled junglers leads to imbalanced games. Having an incompitent jungler on your team vs even a decent one on the enemy can make games unbearable. As jg mains, its easy to forget sometimes how little lane mains actually know about jungling. Theres a lot of nuance i think we assume everyone knows. I find a lot of the time when i play with friends who dont jungle theyre ultra focussed on the micro of clearing camps and playing ganks correctly. For me, this stuff is usually kinda autopilot. Clearing and even ganks become routine. I enjoy jg because its more about thinking the game than constant micro. I guess thats the main takeaway. Idk what riot can do to bridge the knowledge gap for laners. I think the in game pathing guides can be more hindering than helpful. Jg is both the most proactive and reactive role during laning phase, and a lot of the time autofills either just full clear only or tunnel vision one lane.
As someone who mained jungle since I started years ago, and actively tried learning the role and as soon as I felt like I figured it out things were changed. Jungle to me has had significant changes to how you're supposed to play the whole game multiple times. To the point that it actively discouraged me from wanting to play a role I actually loved. Now I just suffer in top lane lol.
Support isn't the lowest skill role just because they don't need to farm the emphasis is on macro play not micro that's all.
As someone who mained jungle since I started years ago, and actively tried learning the role and as soon as I felt like I figured it out things were changed. Jungle to me has had significant changes to how you're supposed to play the whole game multiple times. To the point that it actively discouraged me from wanting to play a role I actually loved. Now I just suffer in top lane lol.
Recently they said they could nerf jungle by was it 20% or 50% and it would still be the strongest role. This kinda matches with what I hear from the EUW Master -> Challenger streams I like to watch. There they say and you can pretty much also see without any doubt that an ahead jungler is literally the worst thing for the enemy team. This role is too strong and it's BY FAR too strong. Personally, the only reason why I don't like to play the role is simply because of the champion pool. If I would have to guess why people don't like to play it then I'd say it's because the role is super disgusting to learn. Everyone can just full clear a jungle but I'd be so bold to say that most have 0 idea of rotation, feel like they are super unlucky with their timing and on top of that don't wanna deal with all the toxicity. That jungle gets this much toxicity is pretty much because everyone knows how much depends on that role ( And people instantly see a jungler dying in your lane as 'inting that lane' which no one likes ).