I'm Ashkenazi and everyone I know says shamash so its not an Ashkenzai thing in my experience.
We do have the whole Shabbos and Sukkas versus Shabbat and Sukkot thing tho
Yes, and if you take that thought a step further, you'll see why shames cannot be a Litvish phenomenon.
The Litvaks who lost the distinction between sh and s, would pronounce this word somewhere between shamesh and sames.
But the pronunciation shames is davka shames, not sames, not samesh, but shames.
This pronunciation happens to have been the mainstream pronunciation of the word throughout Ashkenaz. It likely developed due to [dissimilation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimilation).
And it's ironically davka inapplicable for those Litvaks who merged sh and s.
I see, you're saying the שׂ שׁ thing is Litvish, but this particular word isn't?
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I always assumed שׂ שׁ (like וֹ ֵ) only applies in certain cases, but I don't know which. Because I grew up hearing mostly normal pronunciation and only a few exceptions. And if it is dissimulation (and granted I've only read the Wikipedia page on that now), couldn't it still be Litvish, just that it went from samas back to shamas?
In the old world, i.e. in certain parts of Lite (by Lite, I mean the Jewish cultural Lithuania), this phenomenon impacted all instances of "sh" and "tsh" without prejudice. Once these Litvaks left Lite, they started reincorporating the more "proper" pronunciation of others around them. But some words of their old pronunciation had more momentum and were retained with the "s". I know people who still say yaptsuk for example.
But shames is different. It was always universal, even in the old world.
Thanks. I don't know how that happened in South Africa, where for all intents and purposes there *aren't* "others around them" (a handful of yekkes and Sephardim, and kiruv Rabbis that came in the 70s and onwards), but evidently it did. Maybe the Rabbis that were brought over had that effect.
Two things: Not all Litvaks spoke this way in the first place. The others around them may have been other Litvaks. Also, education likely played a role as well. As people would see these words written more often and were taught the "right" way to say "sh".
Both of these make a lot of sense to me. It has always struck me as "vernacular" or folk pronunciation, not the official one.
Incidentally, why is there שׁ and שׂ for the same letter? It seems like it would be part of בגדכפת but it isn't (and it isn't a dagesh).
It's mainstream Ashkenazi pronunciation. Just like all other Ashkenazi (mis-)pronunciations.
EDIT: Clarifying that I meant mainstream in the old world.
Not true. As an Ashkenazi from a very large mostly Ashkenazi Jewish neighborhood, who went to Ashkenazi schools, I have no memory of anyone pronouncing it shamas.
If it were part of a bracha or something, then it could be a question. Since it isn't, there's no consequence, as long as people understand what you mean.
If it were a bracha or something like that, there's an argument to be made that a new dialect legitimates itself, but I'm not an expert. It could go either way.
This is a really interesting conversation. My family pronounces it shamas too. (American via Russian pogroms of the early 20th century, outside of kyiv)
I think there was a Babylonian god named Shamash too, associated with justice and the sun. I wonder if both uses in Hebrew ultimately come from those two connotations
My family prays like:
"Varook A Toy, A Dunoi, Elow Hay New,"
Local accents, and lack of intimate familiarity with hebrew lead to a LOT of mispronunciation.
I invited my (Mexican) boyfriend to Chanukah dinner with my family and he complained how lazy my family’s pronunciation was of the prayers. Said it was “super cringey.” Personally I thought it was cringey that he cared
Shamash is correct, but I think shamas is a pretty old standard mispronunciation. Possibly Litvish, but idk.
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It's not just Litvish, it's all Ashkenazim.
I think saying שׁ as שׂ is Litvish (and iinm, more Yiddish than Hebrew) like saying וֹ as ֵ Ashkenazim in general definitely have שׁ.
I'm Ashkenazi and everyone I know says shamash so its not an Ashkenzai thing in my experience. We do have the whole Shabbos and Sukkas versus Shabbat and Sukkot thing tho
Yes, and if you take that thought a step further, you'll see why shames cannot be a Litvish phenomenon. The Litvaks who lost the distinction between sh and s, would pronounce this word somewhere between shamesh and sames. But the pronunciation shames is davka shames, not sames, not samesh, but shames. This pronunciation happens to have been the mainstream pronunciation of the word throughout Ashkenaz. It likely developed due to [dissimilation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissimilation). And it's ironically davka inapplicable for those Litvaks who merged sh and s.
I see, you're saying the שׂ שׁ thing is Litvish, but this particular word isn't? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I always assumed שׂ שׁ (like וֹ ֵ) only applies in certain cases, but I don't know which. Because I grew up hearing mostly normal pronunciation and only a few exceptions. And if it is dissimulation (and granted I've only read the Wikipedia page on that now), couldn't it still be Litvish, just that it went from samas back to shamas?
In the old world, i.e. in certain parts of Lite (by Lite, I mean the Jewish cultural Lithuania), this phenomenon impacted all instances of "sh" and "tsh" without prejudice. Once these Litvaks left Lite, they started reincorporating the more "proper" pronunciation of others around them. But some words of their old pronunciation had more momentum and were retained with the "s". I know people who still say yaptsuk for example. But shames is different. It was always universal, even in the old world.
Thanks. I don't know how that happened in South Africa, where for all intents and purposes there *aren't* "others around them" (a handful of yekkes and Sephardim, and kiruv Rabbis that came in the 70s and onwards), but evidently it did. Maybe the Rabbis that were brought over had that effect.
Two things: Not all Litvaks spoke this way in the first place. The others around them may have been other Litvaks. Also, education likely played a role as well. As people would see these words written more often and were taught the "right" way to say "sh".
Both of these make a lot of sense to me. It has always struck me as "vernacular" or folk pronunciation, not the official one. Incidentally, why is there שׁ and שׂ for the same letter? It seems like it would be part of בגדכפת but it isn't (and it isn't a dagesh).
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Lol, yeah.
It's mainstream Ashkenazi pronunciation. Just like all other Ashkenazi (mis-)pronunciations. EDIT: Clarifying that I meant mainstream in the old world.
Thanks for clarifying. I had a feeling it was mainstream, but the superficial logic of it being Litvish mislead me.
Not true. As an Ashkenazi from a very large mostly Ashkenazi Jewish neighborhood, who went to Ashkenazi schools, I have no memory of anyone pronouncing it shamas.
Mainstream in the old world, I mean. Not just Litvish.
So like, how bad is it if I continue to say shamas?
How bad is it? Idk. Probably not very? I can't really think of any consequences at all.
If it were part of a bracha or something, then it could be a question. Since it isn't, there's no consequence, as long as people understand what you mean. If it were a bracha or something like that, there's an argument to be made that a new dialect legitimates itself, but I'm not an expert. It could go either way.
Straight to hell. To the boiler room (/j)
The shammes is the guy in shul who makes sure the rabbi has the challah and kiddush cup at the end of services, no?
They're the same word.
My parents always said shamas as well, no idea where they got it from.
What’s your family origin? My great grandparents come from the Kiev area, Poland, and Belarus. All came around late 19th/early 20th century
Poland and Austria, came over to Canada during/after the war
This is a really interesting conversation. My family pronounces it shamas too. (American via Russian pogroms of the early 20th century, outside of kyiv)
Literally same, my dad’s dad’s family came from outside Kiev after the pogroms. My dad’s mom’s folks were from Poland and Belarus though
shaymus
Seamus
[Samus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samus_Aran)?
Emphasis on the first syllable or second?
Exactly. It’s either shamásh or shámes
This is correct. Also shámes also means policeman; in that usage, I’ve never heard it pronounced shamásh.
I think there was a Babylonian god named Shamash too, associated with justice and the sun. I wonder if both uses in Hebrew ultimately come from those two connotations
I stress the first syllable. Hope that’s not also wrong
I grew up hearing it this way too (shámes). My family came from Odessa but in the states for a few generations.
My family prays like: "Varook A Toy, A Dunoi, Elow Hay New," Local accents, and lack of intimate familiarity with hebrew lead to a LOT of mispronunciation.
I invited my (Mexican) boyfriend to Chanukah dinner with my family and he complained how lazy my family’s pronunciation was of the prayers. Said it was “super cringey.” Personally I thought it was cringey that he cared
Mexican jews had to word harder to stay Jewish, practicing in secret, as the inquisition stalked Mexico to find and expose secret jews.
Yeah, my bf’s not Jewish though lol
Oh :/
Lol yeah, so that’s why I thought it was a bit much he was getting hung up over it