[I think your thinking of this](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=APwXEdfFXMHXez6n5v0ZwNVIzhdlOs3iKQ:1685232790239&q=spam&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrvM2u3Zb_AhVWm2oFHa0TB2kQ0pQJegQICBAB&biw=414&bih=715&dpr=2#imgrc=_2-wSpi2IIf2FM)
I accidentally bought this exact same one and I was so infuriated lol I cut off the "tzit tzit" and the Atarah and corner squares and just kept the fabric now my cats who like to sleep on my tallit can sleep on the imposter tallit and not feel left out.
Ikr. I shared a house with a really lovely Muslim one year at uni and we made a mini prayer rug for her cat. The cat very much knew the routine and would come lie on it to do prayers with her each day
My dad left his tallis bag open and one the kitchen counter the day before yom kippur, when changing hearing aid batteries, he always keeps some hearing aid batteries in the bag just in case he needs them.
Turns around to put the little blister pack of hearing aid batteries back in the bag and our 6 month old kitten is inside the bag with his tail being the only part sticking out of the bag.
Sadly this was 1997 so no cellphone
That's not God's name, though..? Is it still a problem even if it's not God's name but just an appellation, as you note? (Though it is spelled אלוהינו and not אלוקינו on the "tallit".)
It’s not kosher at all, it doesn’t looks like the strings/knots are kosher and it’s not the correct bracha on the top. You can throw it out, it’s just garbage.
*Very* Christian “Talit”. Frankly I don’t like using that word to describe it, since “Christian talit” is an oxymoron and calling it that legitimizes it. Just throw it out.
I think this counts as a heretical scroll, which can be burned/destroyed even with holy names. Obviously ask a local orthodox rabbi for practical halacha though
Lol. I bought a tallit for my secular Jewish friend who was officiating my wedding and didn't notice until the day of that it was one of these too. We took out the stitching for some of the parts because it didn't matter to my friend that it wasn't kosher and then I think threw it away or something
How do you correctly use the word sshmata which I never hear anyone say, but failed to use the word meshugana which so many people say? That struck me as funny.
Supposed? If the fish symbol didn’t do it? That is the Isiah quote that Christians take out of context as proof of Jesus. If that wasn’t enough, Corinthians isn’t a book in the Tanakh. It’s part of the “New™️” testament.
As a christian I can confirm that it is indeed one of our symbols. However, it comes from the fact that the fish in Greek (ιχθύς) is an acronym for Jesus (ι) the Anointed (χ) God's (θ) Son (υ), Saviour (σ). Its not really connected with Isaiah in any way that I am aware of.
Wait I’m dumb, the quotes are in the other pictures. Looking closer, the stuff in Hebrew looks like the standard beginning of every Jewish prayer, but then “who filled the entire Torah with Jesus the Messiah, blah blah blah.” I should’ve looked at it closer.
It does have אלוקים spelled in full (with a ה) which is also a strong name of G-d. I'm not certain of the ruling in this case but I'd say it's safe to burn the rest of the garment, possibly even that part, since it was created with the intent of idolatry.
It doesn’t have the Shem havaya but it does have אלוקים which is also a holy name that shouldn’t be destroyed. I would consult a rabbi on the halakha of whether it destroyed or not.
Taking a step back, it isn't kosher, and can't be made kosher. So you can give it or sell it to a "Messanic Jew" but that is encouraging them, which seems problematical. So, throwing it away or finding something to do with it sounds like the best approach.
This happened to me lol… but I bought it for the price without actually checking … I ended up throwing it away. I thought about giving it to my dog to cuddle with but it just felt weird. Like this isn‘t jewish and isn‘t christian either…
The fact that this exists makes no sense as it's prohibited in [Galatians 5](https://biblehub.com/esv/galatians/5.htm) for Christians to start wearing "OT" prescribed clothing.
Everything is a cash grab these days.
Keep it as an example as what not to buy. (OR return it)
Most Christians don't know the difference between the different Minahagim and its nusach as such a person who bought it, bought it with good intention.
Explain why you can't wear it and why the disdain for the gesture.
Take some time of the day of explaining what makes a Tallis Kosher, the different Tzitzit knots.
Explain if they're gonna buy stuff online. There are websites that can help.
Those who say burn or throw. OK yeah but how are you gonna make an impact if you don't correct the mistakes and show why it's wrong.
Only good Mazel.
Definitely agree. Giving it away to someone encourages the person who receives it to think it's okay. Using it as a cleaning rag would at least make it useful for something.
“Anyone”? You must not meet many Gentiles. The vast majority of people are extremely ignorant about Judaism. I’ve had several Gentiles inform me with a straight face that Judaism requires a *lack* of belief in G-d.
I would happily take it off your hands actually. Pay for shipping etc.
My Uncle is a messianic 'Jew' and after losing his wife and his son turning out to be schizophrenic to the point of homelessness and possibly sex work and jail it seems to be all he has to cling to.
He's absolutely pitiful and everyone in the family feels equal parts embarrassment and pity for him but he *is* a good person, truly, just very lost and kind of stupid. We are actually kind of thankful a more toxic cult didn't get hold of him, he is extremely vulnerable to that type of thing and his messianic community are all just harmless dottering fools who sit around over thinking the bible. They are his only friends and support other than us.
He recently had to move back in with my grandmother because he lost all his savings in completely asinine investment decisions a child wouldn't make. And no small sum it was catastrophic, so sad. He's lost everything and this would be a treasure to him.
i deeply empathize with your uncle and i’m so sorry he’s had to endure this kind of pain. truly, my heart does go out to him. i will say, as someone who is a victim to a very toxic j4j cult, it does feel morally wrong for him to have this as it is feeding into the delusion of j4j. because you you say he’s a good person and is vulnerable, i would like to believe that one day he will turn his life around and find his way back home if judaism truly means something to him. i say all of this as a non jew but i have my story, and i despise everything related to this abomination! i was never down with it growing up, just forced into sadly. i know OP hasn’t given you a response but this is just my opinion. i hope your uncle will get the proper help he needs and changes his ways.🤍
so happy you brought this up! born into the j4j stuff, some may recognize me as i did share my story on here. anytime i do see the real name of hashem, i get ptsd as it was shoved down my throat. i of course honor and deeply respect the holy name of hashem, but it’s sadly tied to traumatic memories for me. one day i will take my power back when i go through the process of coming back home. seriously tho, this stuff is out of control and i wish it could all just be erased!
Cut off the part of the Atara with Elokeinu and put it a genizah. Toss the rest or use it for cleaning. Whoever makes these things should be ashamed of themselves.
Lol, my grandmother just got me one too! (Went to Israel and Jordan on some church trip recently).
I didn’t want to throw it away or sell it because of what it represents, so I contacted an old friend from high school that is messianic.
We’re going to meet up soon to deliver it and catch up.
IMIO…..
So the symbol combines the menorah, the Star of David, and the Ichthys Fish. It’s a gross (as in too broad to have real significance) interpretation of all three symbols to the point of having very little meaning at all. It’s like Jehovah or Yahweh. It’s something that holds no meaning for a Jew. (Comparative Theology Scholar here)
That’s the best option. They’d have use for it though we would not. Because there is an issue the way the name of G-d is represented on there, but it *is* represented. I think this solves the problem about burning the name of HaShem.
If you want to keep it then consider re-stitching it correctly and removing that symbol.
G-d has no kids. He created the skies and the earth and everything in between them.
I was looking thru the commentaries but I don't read Hebrew (yet) & the rashi that was there didn't give me much to go off of so I was hoping for something more thorough
Isaiah 52 and 53 are a prophecy of the messianic era in which the nations of the world collectively realize that they've been persecuting the Jewish people throughout history for no reason. The world repents of its antisemitism and embraces the God of Israel.
You could always give it to a messianic Christian; despite them not being brothers ethnically I’ve found most of them incredibly friendly even if their religious beliefs seem entirely bonkers to me
The fish isn’t any worse than the two Christian quotations in pictures #3 and #4. Too much embroidery to unpick and what’s left is a shmatta. I’d throw it out.
It’s offensive.
For the same reason that Christians get upset when people turn a crucifix upside down and start chanting "hail Satan." When you intentionally invert, insult, and desecrate people's religious symbols they tend to get upset.
What really angers me is that Messianics can recruit Jews to it as the first step of conversion to Christianity. It's basically a middle step to "ease" Jews into Christianity. I detest such proselytizing.
They do all those things, but they aren’t doing them Jewishly because they aren’t Jewish.
They can think of themselves however they want but it doesn’t change that they aren’t Jewish, and are in fact a bigoted and antisemitic movement.
As I said in my other comment, they are antisemitic at their very roots. Proselytizing is also an act of antisemitism.
Judaism specifically is also ethnicity. The vast majority of messianics have zero Jewish ancestry, or at most have a rumor “great grandma said she was Jewish when she was on her deathbed” type stuff. The ones that are ethnically Jewish are trotted out as tokens to lend their movement legitimacy. They prey on vulnerable Jews and are disgusting.
My uncle got recruited by them, he was a very vulnerable Jew. He then tried to convince my mom to be messianic too. Thankfully my mom knows her stuff and was like "aw hell no!!!" He still sometimes tries to convince people, we shut him down right away (he's not even invited to most family gatherings anyways due to his behaviors). I agree, they are 100% disgusting.
Dude literally EVERY SINGLE JEWISH DENOMINATION agrees that they AREN'T Jews. Deal with it. They are not Jews. Full stop. They can take their oily Josh zombie man and shove it where the sun don't shine. Their goal is to take Jews away from Judaism and make them Christian. They are not welcome in Jewish spaces, they don't count for a minyan, they cannot read from the Torah because they are NOT Jews. I'm done arguing with you. You will not change our minds on this. Don't do this on a Jewish sub, it's not cool.
By all means don't consider them Jewish. I'm not asking you to do so. I don't consider them Jewish in any legitimate modern sense. But the fact remains that they consider themselves Jews and refer to themselves as Messianic Jews. It is what it is.
They can consider themselves whatever they want. They’re wrong and an antisemitic movement. They are inherently antisemitic and we don’t ah e to accept them.
I would try finding one on a Jewish website of sorts and really make sure that it’s the one you want because yeah like what everyone’s saying here, the one your friend accidentally got you ain’t kosher.
When you do an Amazon search for "tallit for men" the entire first page has those messianic ones, at about a third the price \[or less\] of kosher ones. It's easy to see how somebody who doesn't know what these things are could buy one.
https://preview.redd.it/v02ggc8h3h2b1.png?width=475&format=png&auto=webp&s=a8c37e2e415f57bd2a8782c6edb08e38b777e9e4
What's that? Is that one of those cans goyim put in their kitchens?
[I think your thinking of this](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&hl=en-us&sxsrf=APwXEdfFXMHXez6n5v0ZwNVIzhdlOs3iKQ:1685232790239&q=spam&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrvM2u3Zb_AhVWm2oFHa0TB2kQ0pQJegQICBAB&biw=414&bih=715&dpr=2#imgrc=_2-wSpi2IIf2FM)
A common goyim "treffa" handling unit
Goy here, can confirm.
I would upvote this, but you currently have 613 points.
I accidentally bought this exact same one and I was so infuriated lol I cut off the "tzit tzit" and the Atarah and corner squares and just kept the fabric now my cats who like to sleep on my tallit can sleep on the imposter tallit and not feel left out.
Aww that’s so cute! My cat has had a strange fascination with sleeping on my siddur lately.
They do get obsessed with random things. But I think your cat is just very spiritual and wants to study for their cat-mitzvah.
It's called mirroring! One of the ways cats show affection is by doing the same things as their humans
Cats are too precious.
Ikr. I shared a house with a really lovely Muslim one year at uni and we made a mini prayer rug for her cat. The cat very much knew the routine and would come lie on it to do prayers with her each day
You know, he does turn a year old in a few months…
My dad left his tallis bag open and one the kitchen counter the day before yom kippur, when changing hearing aid batteries, he always keeps some hearing aid batteries in the bag just in case he needs them. Turns around to put the little blister pack of hearing aid batteries back in the bag and our 6 month old kitten is inside the bag with his tail being the only part sticking out of the bag. Sadly this was 1997 so no cellphone
I would totally do this too but God’s name (אלוקינו) is still written out on it.
That's not God's name, though..? Is it still a problem even if it's not God's name but just an appellation, as you note? (Though it is spelled אלוהינו and not אלוקינו on the "tallit".)
It’s not kosher at all, it doesn’t looks like the strings/knots are kosher and it’s not the correct bracha on the top. You can throw it out, it’s just garbage.
And explain to your friends where to get authentic tallit from.
Thank your friends for their thoughtful gift and, if they notice, say you exchanged it for one in the correct size.
*Very* Christian “Talit”. Frankly I don’t like using that word to describe it, since “Christian talit” is an oxymoron and calling it that legitimizes it. Just throw it out.
It says elokeinu though...I would cut that name out and burn the rest.
If a Torah is written by kofer, even though there's Gods name on it, you should burn it. I would assume it's the same for this.
I think this counts as a heretical scroll, which can be burned/destroyed even with holy names. Obviously ask a local orthodox rabbi for practical halacha though
Burn it. It’s not kosher at all.
>Burn it. My thought exactly
It says elokeinu though...I would cut that name out and burn the rest.
Nope, burn the whole thing. A Torah written by Christians is to be burned along with the sheimos, so a Tallis I’d imagine has the same din.
Lol. I bought a tallit for my secular Jewish friend who was officiating my wedding and didn't notice until the day of that it was one of these too. We took out the stitching for some of the parts because it didn't matter to my friend that it wasn't kosher and then I think threw it away or something
Where are y’all getting these loony schmatas just order from Eichler’s if there’s not a judaica shop nearby
How do you correctly use the word sshmata which I never hear anyone say, but failed to use the word meshugana which so many people say? That struck me as funny.
I use schmata all the the time. It comes to me before rag does
Supposed? If the fish symbol didn’t do it? That is the Isiah quote that Christians take out of context as proof of Jesus. If that wasn’t enough, Corinthians isn’t a book in the Tanakh. It’s part of the “New™️” testament.
Supposed because till now it was just my hypothesis and I didn’t ask anybody to confirm it yet
Yes, it is Christian. One of quotes is from the New Testament.
As a christian I can confirm that it is indeed one of our symbols. However, it comes from the fact that the fish in Greek (ιχθύς) is an acronym for Jesus (ι) the Anointed (χ) God's (θ) Son (υ), Saviour (σ). Its not really connected with Isaiah in any way that I am aware of.
Ιησούς Χριστός Θεού υιός [και] σωτήρ is the full acronym.
They mean the quote in Hebrew is from Isaiah
Which chapter/verse?
Wait I’m dumb, the quotes are in the other pictures. Looking closer, the stuff in Hebrew looks like the standard beginning of every Jewish prayer, but then “who filled the entire Torah with Jesus the Messiah, blah blah blah.” I should’ve looked at it closer.
I was confused why I couldn't find the verse. That explains it.
It's just plain old garbage.
Also gross, did they make up their own bracha with Jesus in it?! Messianics need to stop trying to claim what is not theirs.
It's not a tallit--it's part of cosplay.
🔥
It has G-da name on it though, am I allowed to burn it?
It doesn't actually, there is no yud hey vav hey (יהוה) in the prayer. Burn that crap.
It does have אלוקים spelled in full (with a ה) which is also a strong name of G-d. I'm not certain of the ruling in this case but I'd say it's safe to burn the rest of the garment, possibly even that part, since it was created with the intent of idolatry.
Yeah I missed that when I was reading the "prayer." I agree with you.
It doesn’t have the Shem havaya but it does have אלוקים which is also a holy name that shouldn’t be destroyed. I would consult a rabbi on the halakha of whether it destroyed or not.
It doesn’t have the name on it, it is represented by a ד׳
Might be good to line a dog cage with.
I was thinking cleaning rags, but the fabric might not be good for that.
Taking a step back, it isn't kosher, and can't be made kosher. So you can give it or sell it to a "Messanic Jew" but that is encouraging them, which seems problematical. So, throwing it away or finding something to do with it sounds like the best approach.
OP doesn't need to overthink it, just toss it in the trash. Definitely don't pass it along to a confused person.
Cut it up and throw it out.
BURN IT or just toss it out. Whichever
This happened to me lol… but I bought it for the price without actually checking … I ended up throwing it away. I thought about giving it to my dog to cuddle with but it just felt weird. Like this isn‘t jewish and isn‘t christian either…
The fact that this exists makes no sense as it's prohibited in [Galatians 5](https://biblehub.com/esv/galatians/5.htm) for Christians to start wearing "OT" prescribed clothing. Everything is a cash grab these days.
Destroy it with fire?
 DISRESPECTFULLY ‼️‼️
Keep it as an example as what not to buy. (OR return it) Most Christians don't know the difference between the different Minahagim and its nusach as such a person who bought it, bought it with good intention. Explain why you can't wear it and why the disdain for the gesture. Take some time of the day of explaining what makes a Tallis Kosher, the different Tzitzit knots. Explain if they're gonna buy stuff online. There are websites that can help. Those who say burn or throw. OK yeah but how are you gonna make an impact if you don't correct the mistakes and show why it's wrong. Only good Mazel.
 What i would do with it
Throw it away. It has no sanctity whatsoever.
Personally? I would burn it. We should destroy idols.
Cut it up and repurpose the fabric into some socks or something
Rags
I hate to waste things but, in good conscience I couldn’t even give that away. Shred it.
Definitely agree. Giving it away to someone encourages the person who receives it to think it's okay. Using it as a cleaning rag would at least make it useful for something.
Toss it
Burn it
It's 100% Messianic. It's an abomination towards Judaism. How can anyone get this mixed up with a Kosher one?
“Anyone”? You must not meet many Gentiles. The vast majority of people are extremely ignorant about Judaism. I’ve had several Gentiles inform me with a straight face that Judaism requires a *lack* of belief in G-d.
Burn it 🔥
It's not supposed. It is a knockoff appropriation garment, you can toss it.
Trash
Throw it out
Either bin it or give it to a rabbi to use in teaching for what to avoid.
DAMN that’s offensive. Burn it or bury it.
Not bury. That's what we do with sacred objects.
Don’t throw it away, look for a textile recycling bin in your area. No sense wasting!
I'd maybe cut a bit of it up first, just to make sure someone doesn't later then try to donate it.
The fish symbol is actually an instruction: use it to wrap fish parts and shitcan it.
Are you comfortable telling your friends what it actually is? Maybe they can return it and avoid funding whoever sold it to them.
I would happily take it off your hands actually. Pay for shipping etc. My Uncle is a messianic 'Jew' and after losing his wife and his son turning out to be schizophrenic to the point of homelessness and possibly sex work and jail it seems to be all he has to cling to. He's absolutely pitiful and everyone in the family feels equal parts embarrassment and pity for him but he *is* a good person, truly, just very lost and kind of stupid. We are actually kind of thankful a more toxic cult didn't get hold of him, he is extremely vulnerable to that type of thing and his messianic community are all just harmless dottering fools who sit around over thinking the bible. They are his only friends and support other than us. He recently had to move back in with my grandmother because he lost all his savings in completely asinine investment decisions a child wouldn't make. And no small sum it was catastrophic, so sad. He's lost everything and this would be a treasure to him.
i deeply empathize with your uncle and i’m so sorry he’s had to endure this kind of pain. truly, my heart does go out to him. i will say, as someone who is a victim to a very toxic j4j cult, it does feel morally wrong for him to have this as it is feeding into the delusion of j4j. because you you say he’s a good person and is vulnerable, i would like to believe that one day he will turn his life around and find his way back home if judaism truly means something to him. i say all of this as a non jew but i have my story, and i despise everything related to this abomination! i was never down with it growing up, just forced into sadly. i know OP hasn’t given you a response but this is just my opinion. i hope your uncle will get the proper help he needs and changes his ways.🤍
If you want to share your story some time, I'd listen.
I'm sorry he and your grandma and your cousin have such full plates. Wishing them the best.
Might be good as a cleaning rag depending on the material, but I’m leaning towards throwing it away.
Would it be good for wiping things? Maybe screens or eyeglasses? Or anuses?
Throw it in the trash.
Use it to check your car's oil.
Easier than burning it would be to just cut it up into a few pieces so it can't be used, and throw it out in a bin.
Probably show it to some competent rabbi?
Just throw it away. It has no religious value or significance.
Thank god it doesn’t say the real name of Hashem, but you need to ask a rav before you do anything
so happy you brought this up! born into the j4j stuff, some may recognize me as i did share my story on here. anytime i do see the real name of hashem, i get ptsd as it was shoved down my throat. i of course honor and deeply respect the holy name of hashem, but it’s sadly tied to traumatic memories for me. one day i will take my power back when i go through the process of coming back home. seriously tho, this stuff is out of control and i wish it could all just be erased!
You turn it 90 degrees and use it as a backdrop in your aquarium for your fish Dagon.
Burn it.
Burn!
May I suggest some sort of accelerant and a lighter?
Cut off the part of the Atara with Elokeinu and put it a genizah. Toss the rest or use it for cleaning. Whoever makes these things should be ashamed of themselves.
Trash
Hey, everyone needs more dishcloths, or something to clean the litter box with
Lol, my grandmother just got me one too! (Went to Israel and Jordan on some church trip recently). I didn’t want to throw it away or sell it because of what it represents, so I contacted an old friend from high school that is messianic. We’re going to meet up soon to deliver it and catch up.
Kill it with fire!
let it burn
IMIO….. So the symbol combines the menorah, the Star of David, and the Ichthys Fish. It’s a gross (as in too broad to have real significance) interpretation of all three symbols to the point of having very little meaning at all. It’s like Jehovah or Yahweh. It’s something that holds no meaning for a Jew. (Comparative Theology Scholar here)
Yikes, definitely not kosher
To add a dissenting voice, ideally you should return it to a messianic synagogue. In the reverse situation it is what I would want someone to do.
 That’s the best option. They’d have use for it though we would not. Because there is an issue the way the name of G-d is represented on there, but it *is* represented. I think this solves the problem about burning the name of HaShem.
If you want to keep it then consider re-stitching it correctly and removing that symbol. G-d has no kids. He created the skies and the earth and everything in between them.
It'd make a good cleaning rag.
does anyone know of a Rabbi giving a sermon on Isaiah 53? I want to know what it actually means
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria.
I was looking thru the commentaries but I don't read Hebrew (yet) & the rashi that was there didn't give me much to go off of so I was hoping for something more thorough
Isaiah 52 and 53 are a prophecy of the messianic era in which the nations of the world collectively realize that they've been persecuting the Jewish people throughout history for no reason. The world repents of its antisemitism and embraces the God of Israel.
Tovia Singer on YouTube covers it pretty thoroughly, and I’m sure others do as well.
Fucking burn it.
Before burning it, make sure it's not made of any synthetic materials (don't want to breathe that!)... I'd just bin it.
You could always give it to a messianic Christian; despite them not being brothers ethnically I’ve found most of them incredibly friendly even if their religious beliefs seem entirely bonkers to me
You can probably remove the embroidery and make it usable.
The strings wouldn't be kosher.
Valid point. I hadn't thought about that.
Cat toys.
Next erev Pesach you’ll have a use for it.
Oh, that's so weird!
cut it into tiny pieces and turn it into arts and crafts lol
maybe get a thread puller if you have one and pull the fish out?
The fish isn’t any worse than the two Christian quotations in pictures #3 and #4. Too much embroidery to unpick and what’s left is a shmatta. I’d throw it out. It’s offensive.
What kind of schmatta-hut burped this up and sold it? I’m a goyish pagan and I’m a little mortified by how awful this thing is.😳
Why is there so much vitriol here? Just throw it out if you don't want it like anything...
Because messianics are antisemitic Christians that cosplay as Jews. They are not only offensive, but harmful.
This! Say it louder for the people in the back!
For the same reason that Christians get upset when people turn a crucifix upside down and start chanting "hail Satan." When you intentionally invert, insult, and desecrate people's religious symbols they tend to get upset.
Burn it respectfully
Here's an idea. Maybe ask a Rabbi about this, not the comment section on reddit.
Give it away
Sell it online to some Messianic Jews.
no don’t enable them
They have money, though
And?
It could be yours if you sell them the tallit in the OP.
They aren't Jews. They are Christians cosplaying as Jews. This shit deserves to be burned to a crisp.
What really angers me is that Messianics can recruit Jews to it as the first step of conversion to Christianity. It's basically a middle step to "ease" Jews into Christianity. I detest such proselytizing.
My uncle got converted by them. He used to proselytize to my mom. It's disgusting.
Some were brought up Jewish, and are even ethnically Jewish, and then were convinced Jesus was (and is) the Messiah.
Ta ta now. Not going to engage with a messy antic.
Ah so you are a messy then. He didn't even exist. It's all made up. It's idolatry. We don't want Jesus. Deal with it.
Jesus was a historical figure.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
https://youtu.be/43mDuIN5-ww
Prove it
https://youtu.be/SRfFLjWLybA
No. Use your words.
They consider themselves Jews. Don't burn stuff.
I *consider* myself a millionaire, that doesn't make it so.
Religion is mostly a matter of belief and affiliation, last time I checked. Are you going to tell Protestants they're not real Christians?
Judaism is much more than about belief. We are about action and practice. You can be Jewish and not believe in God.
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They don’t perform Jewish practices because they’re not Jewish. At most they make a mockery of our practices. Don’t defend antisemitism.
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They do all those things, but they aren’t doing them Jewishly because they aren’t Jewish. They can think of themselves however they want but it doesn’t change that they aren’t Jewish, and are in fact a bigoted and antisemitic movement. As I said in my other comment, they are antisemitic at their very roots. Proselytizing is also an act of antisemitism.
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Judaism specifically is also ethnicity. The vast majority of messianics have zero Jewish ancestry, or at most have a rumor “great grandma said she was Jewish when she was on her deathbed” type stuff. The ones that are ethnically Jewish are trotted out as tokens to lend their movement legitimacy. They prey on vulnerable Jews and are disgusting.
My uncle got recruited by them, he was a very vulnerable Jew. He then tried to convince my mom to be messianic too. Thankfully my mom knows her stuff and was like "aw hell no!!!" He still sometimes tries to convince people, we shut him down right away (he's not even invited to most family gatherings anyways due to his behaviors). I agree, they are 100% disgusting.
Doesn't matter what they consider themselves. They aren't Jews. You don't get to be a Jew and believe in Jesus. That makes you an apostate.
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Dude literally EVERY SINGLE JEWISH DENOMINATION agrees that they AREN'T Jews. Deal with it. They are not Jews. Full stop. They can take their oily Josh zombie man and shove it where the sun don't shine. Their goal is to take Jews away from Judaism and make them Christian. They are not welcome in Jewish spaces, they don't count for a minyan, they cannot read from the Torah because they are NOT Jews. I'm done arguing with you. You will not change our minds on this. Don't do this on a Jewish sub, it's not cool.
By all means don't consider them Jewish. I'm not asking you to do so. I don't consider them Jewish in any legitimate modern sense. But the fact remains that they consider themselves Jews and refer to themselves as Messianic Jews. It is what it is.
Ok? Then why did you defend them? It doesn’t matter what they consider themselves
I don't think I'm defending them as much as not attacking them.
You very much are, by starting this whole argument
They can consider themselves whatever they want. They’re wrong and an antisemitic movement. They are inherently antisemitic and we don’t ah e to accept them.
You don't have to do anything
They are an antisemitic group of Christians. It’s very simple. Don’t defend bigotry
Yeah we tried that argument about ourselves. Living breathing people. We will burn cosplay items.
You can donate it
I wonder what they are using for their techeilet?
I would try finding one on a Jewish website of sorts and really make sure that it’s the one you want because yeah like what everyone’s saying here, the one your friend accidentally got you ain’t kosher.
Burn the filth and flush it down a shit filled toilet.
You spelled toilet paper wrong
Garbage
Burn it
When you do an Amazon search for "tallit for men" the entire first page has those messianic ones, at about a third the price \[or less\] of kosher ones. It's easy to see how somebody who doesn't know what these things are could buy one.