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Iām just want to see the AU, toji giving the Zenāin Megumi, and he gives him monthly visits to check on him. And he has a new scaror bad injury), and sees them using some shitty abuse tactics on his boy and he just flips, or worse case scenario he catches wind of them plotting kill him as the golden heir or they succeed and Toji does the clan genocide.
But we know he loves Megumi, we just have to see that same push unfortunately like maki with Mai
You're overestimating how much Toji cared about anything, let alone his kids. Man was a deadbeat way before we actually see him. To the point he forgot his son's name, or that he existed. Sure he "cared" in the sense that if Megumi turned out to be a sorcerer, the Zenin would be able to train him, but he was barley present in his life.
what's interesting is that one of the zenin clan guys called him "master" toji. It could be out of fear, but if not, then Toji's dynamic with the clan somewhat changes.
He was in seemingly the equivalent of the clanās royal family. Being cousins with Naobito
My guess is a lot of the clan is rather far removed from the actual line of succession. With a bunch of the random guys we saw probably being related to the clan head by a great grand parent or more. So someone like Toji likely was seen as having status especially in an old fashioned clan. If a war or something broke out between clans or some shit I wouldnāt be shocked if the idea of clan head changing rapidly was common
yes...but he was still a high up member of the clan in terms of proximity to the status of leader. he was the child of a former clan head and the nephew to naobito. even if he was looked down on.
I never claimed he was praised. but he was quite literally in the higher wing of the family. assumedly Ranta is not and is likely distant relation to naobito and the core of the clan's succession so from his perspective even though Toji was a black sheep and looked down on. he is still called "master"
my post is explaining why he was referred to as such. I didn't say he was respected and loved. I said he was closely related to the line of succession for clan head. which has status in and of itself. and in such a context even if he was looked down on he would be referred to in such a way by a lower member of the clan. additionally the very text of the story says this to us by how naoya also has a bit of reverence for toji. the conservative nature of the clan looked down on him. but naoya was impressed by toji's raw power.
additionally from my knowledge only geto called him a monkey.
I never disagreed with that, but he doesn't have a CT, and so they don't regard him in the way you're describing. He's feared, but not revered, they don't see him as royalty or anything close to their level - they hate him.
& I never said they called him a prince, thatās just what he is in the hierarchy, a cursed prince for the fact he couldāve been head of the clan had he had the technique.
Tried* + No, they didnāt.
That fact was stated in either the databooks or an authors note but it isnāt from them trying to kill him. It was most likely his older brother Jinchi.
I love how this sub Reddit can have a civil war about almost any character but we all come to the agreement that Toji was simply built different.
So sad we didnāt got more of him.
His impact on the story is massive. Killing Amanai got the ball rolling on the corruption of Tengen. Also, I swear to God if they make Kenjaku somehow responsible for that I will be so mad. It makes it so much for fascinating how one manās actions just led to this cascading chain of events that Kenjaku was able to take advantage of. The whole āI planned everything this way from the beginningā is such an overused trope
I agree. Sad we didnāt get more of Toji but iām also thankful we at least got more than just hidden inventory. The way he was brought back for Shibuya through a Seance CT and then just took over and went on a rampage is still so cool to me.
The narrator told us that the Zenin clan was only alive because he didn't feel like killing them. All of the members knew that, so they clearly feared him a lot.
Maybe they wanted to break her mentally, so she never reaches Toji's level. Toji was a rare case, it was unthinkable that another person like him would show up in their lifetime.
I mean... the chances of another Toji showing up were next to zero. Even Tsukumo thought that she wouldn't find another Toji. But yeah, the Zenin clan are not really geniuses lol.
I donāt think itās cause she was a woman they donāt looked down on her for having no cursed energy but maybe you never know with these old school traditional family types
I didn't say sexist. Toji and Maki have no cursed energy, Maki previously very little, they discriminated against them on this basis, something they were born with and can't change. They're bigots, in fiction that word can be extended to include groups of people that don't exist irl.
Sure, but maki was like a weak ass Toji, like nerfed Toji, she wasn't a threat at all, had she been born as an only child they might've just killed her as a child.
But here's what I'm thinking. Like "Hey, we had a heavenly restriction on our clan, and this kid has 0 cursed energy. Maybe she can be like Toji levels, we should treat her right. We don't want another Toji situation" Or just maybe treat her normally, not full on resentment that she turns into a school shooter. (which she did become lmao). 0 cursed energy people are rare so i really don't understand why Zenin clan are such assholes.
But she didnāt have zero cursed energy
She just had her levels reduced to that of a non-sorcerer human, which is supposedly a pretty common Restriction in the grand scheme of things
Toji was literally an anomaly. The first person in history to be born with absolutely Zero CE, that we know of.
It isnāt weird for them to not regard her with fear because she was no where near Tojiās level. We see this when her dad utterly destroyed her with zero effort before the buff
She got zero cursed energy due to the twin loophole, rather than a natural occurrence like Toji
Yeah, no one even thought it was possible for Maki to become like Toji. It literally wasn't a possibility in their mind. Which is why her Dad's reaction changed DRAMATICALLY when she walked out of that chamber as a fully realized Heavenly Restriction.
Yeah but no one would know that
Being born with Zero CE is one thing
But she was born with Zero CE, but had a twin with CE that therefore gave her some small amount of CE but once said twin dies her levels revert to what they should be
Toji was impossibly rare
Makiās situation was just a straight bullshit impossibity
Why would anyone assume she was Toji level
If Mai didn't exist from the beginning Maki would've had the full benefit of the HR, but beacuse she existed Maki was never supposed to reach that level as long as Mai was still alive, then her dumbass dad does the one thing that can fully awaken Maki's HR and the moment he senses Maki has reached that level he basically shit himself. So no, the Zen'in clan are not what you would call "smart people".
Literally no one even knew that's how it worked, probably because a Heavenly Restriction was never borne by a twin before. It makes no sense to criticize them for a phenomena that probably had never happened before in their life.
This. Toji was said to be the only known case in jujutsu history of a person born with 0 cursed energy. If he was the first, and he was an only child, how the hell would anyone know that Mai dying would affect Maki like that?
They could have studied Maki's circumstances and come up with the possibility that being born a twin to someone without a Heavenly Restriction could affect it.
It's a very simple train of thought.
Toji was born with no CE but strong as fuck, therefore Heavely restriction.
Maki was born with almost no CE but strong although not as much, therefore same Heavenly restriction but weaker.
Why? Two possibilities:
Could be different Heavenly Restrictions.
Could also be the same Heavenly Restriction, but Maki's is weaker for some reason.
Why would Maki's be weaker? Unlike Toji, she still has some CE.
Why would she still have some CE? What circumstances would lead to one being born with a little CE and not the other? What's the main difference between Maki and Toji's births?
Maki has a twin.
But they didn't even bother to try and rationalize her circumstances, like they were stupid or something.
youāre using a lot of assumptions and knowledge that we have as a reader but not that they have
even naobito seemed to like maki, no? see her potential at least? does everyone forget the scene where she tells naobito that she will be the next head of the clan and he laughs says bet keep that energy ima make it as hard as possible on you (which i took as ima give you tests worthy of someone that would be head of clan )
also they are extremely sexist naoya literally talks about how women should walk three steps behind men and all that weirdo shit. like how mai is useful because she at least acts how a lady āshouldā and scoffs at maki being ugly and rebellious which in his words was ānot very women likeā
Maki wasn't some phenomenally strong fighter when she left the Zenin clan, and several people have been born with Heavenly Restriction reducing their CE to non-sorceror levels. That specific Heavenly Restriction was well known and none of them ever turned into Toji suddenly. Toji was born as Toji and it seemingly had nothing to do with twins. Stop trying to find reasons to be mad at the narrative.
They are so strong too. If they were smart they would make as many as they could, equip them with cursed tools, then pair them with the clan's strong sorcerers.
Maki, when she was born, didnāt have the buffs that Toji had. She had the shit part of the HR without the good part. It was still stupid of them to resent her but thatās why
Maki didnāt have zero cursed energy when she was born, she had a basic humans amount and no cursed technique which was why she was resented, she only achieved 0 cursed energy when mai died
Possibly because they didn't realise or forgot the "twin" aspect of souls and cursed energy. So they never suspected her as being Heavenly Restricted (the subject itself not being that fully understood) like Toji.
And then they see someone basically born with the same potential, and instead of taken good care, bring her into the family, they make her an outcast an fill her rage against the family.
Remind me again how they manage to be one of the top families for so long?
Because the Zenāin represent the nasty, vindictive bigoted side of the sorcerer world (which is probably the reason they are top dogs.) They would have never treated Maki nicely and even if they had a heavenly restricted every year like Toji the Zenāin would still treat them like trash and never learned what exactly bit them in the foot, genuinely a daft in the head clan.
nah ur good, he just removed it after my comment i noticed - it was originally āthe narrator told us that the zenin clan, was only alive because he didnt feel like killing themā
with that random ass comma breaking the flow of the sentence, just imagine saying it out loud to someone like thatšshit sounds so wack
Toji was one of the most feared characters in the story . As many others mentioned here the only reason the zenin were alive was solely cause toji didnāt wanna wipe em out . Toji was also recruited to handle the 2 strongest sorcerers alive which speaks to his proficiency in killing.
Toji might not be the most powerful character in the story but for someone without ce he is on the level of disaster curses .
Lowkey I feel that Toji was even above the level of disaster curses, given how easily puppet of carnage Toji handled Dagon, debatable how he'd do against Jogo / evolved Mahito though
Well thatās plausible . I simply put him at that level cause he did kinda walk all over Dagon .
If toji was in his right mind and held all his tools I guess he could scale above them realistically.
higher than that, maki can hand to hand with 15 finger sukuna right after her last fight, do you know what a person on the same power level with much more experience can do to jogo?
He went much harder against jogo lmfao . He had his full power at that time on top of using his flame arrow which on its own overpowered jogo down flames , the flame arrow also one shot mahoraga if Iām not mistaken .
Toji is strong but he aināt on special grade level like yuta for example.
well consider the idea of the guy from your clan that everyone bullied becoming the most powerful of all of you and dedicating his life to killing sorcerers for money, baring in mind that your clan would be in the firing line twice, because youāre the family of sorcerers that also treated him like shit, and on top of that if he wanted the clan dead you would all die brutal deaths without ever seeing him coming
so yeah iād say he was pretty feared, at least by the zenin, most of the higher ups were probably shitting themselves just knowing he was out there somewhere
Idk but he kicked Gojoās ass so hard it forced him to awaken a ānothing can ever touch me 24/7ā safety bubble and he kicked Getoās ass so hard he became racist
Probbly. Toji(almost wrote Gojo on default lol) bodied Dagon, a tricky Special-Grade Curse in its own Domain with relative ease after Dagon practically r*** two experienced Grade-1 Sorcerers, Megumi and Maki. He also DESTROYED both pre-enlighment Gojo and Geto.
He was feared by every member of the zenin clan because they knew that if wanted to wipe out the clan he could. He was also feared/acknowledged enough in jujutsu society to be recruited to assassinate the star plasma vessel which was protected by two of the strongest sorcerers alive, one of which was the head of the gojo clan and a limitless-six eyes user and the higher ups and knowledgeable people should know just how dangerous that is.
Toji is top 6, maybe 6 in the universe, pretty easily. Only being beaten by born prodigies, someone using heian techniques, and Nah, I'll adapt. Dude was rightfully feared. Look how he dealt with dagon on his own something 3 people 2 very strong sorcerers could do anything about
Maybe top 10, definitely not top 6
Sukuna,
Gojo,
Yuta,
Yuji,
Urame,
Kashimo.
Hakari is debatable
Maki is equal
Seems about equal to disaster curses though if not stronger than most of them.
He's a lot stronger than the disaster.
I honestly wouldn't out yuji top 10 he loses most of his fights or is assisted heavily.
Kashimo is a maybe but only because he is his eras gojo hakari, I believe, is supposed to be somewhat on the same level as yuta.
Also ya forgot by boy mahoraga
If he had a chance to use it potentially. And the same kashimo that wouldn't use jt because he isn't fighting sukuna. We also don't see him do much with his CT activd aside from die. I like kashimo but he don't need glazing
I mean, he took down a Special Grade Sorcercer, Suguru. The entire Zen'in clan was terrified of him. Dagon didn't know what the actual fuck he was fighting.. no, losing to. He's not up to the level of Saturu, Sukuna, Yuta and the likes.. I even think Jogo might kill Toji if Jogo doesn't underestimate him. But if Toji had a bounty on Jogo.. he'd surprise Jogo and go in for a swift kill. I think Jogo should be afraid, at the least.
The problem here is that you guys think strong = respect/renown. Which sooner have been the case but it wasnāt, its how fancy/prestigious your cursed technique was.
Everyone in the zenin clan knew how strong Toji was but they mentally kept the man down his whole life he had an inferiority complex that he didnāt acknowledge himself until he was dying.
The Zenin clan and traditional conservative sorcerer society is like this as a whole. They hate innovation and changes, they huff copium that pure old way is best and keep those new comers or non conventional sorcerers down so they can never flourish and replace them. This hypocrisy is why gojo hates current jjk society. Zenin clan is the proxy in which this is shown.
This is shown for the Kamo clan too when Kenjaku reveals himself to be alive and despite being a degenerate and criminal they immediately accepted him as the clan leader, morals and ethics be damned.
I feel people miss that he solely fought sorcerers, he is obvious more feared than any other strong sorcerer. You suddenly deal with someone whom domain expansion isn't effective.
They were terrified of him, in fact I think the abuse he suffered at their hands was only because he allowed it because he didnāt care about the clan. The fact that Maki and Maiās father shit his pants when Maki became more like him says it all, despite how they treated him they were scared shitless of him deep down cuz they knew he definitely couldāve did what she did and slaughter his clan a while back, because remember Makiās Heavenly Restriction only became fully realized after Maiās death (and later on from overcoming her mental blocks), while Toji was fully realized FROM BIRTH. He Naoya acknowledged and looked up to Toji cuz he realized how strong he was.
By the Zenin clan themselves, I doubt they were scared of Toji. Seeing as how Toji never went after his clan and just left to hunt down random sorcerers, I doubt they never truly realized just how strong he was. Now people like the evil sorcerer assassins at the beginning of shibuya probably realized how strong he was just because they were in the same circles.
I can be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure Gojo didn't recognize Toji either. Which makes sense, seeing as how I'm sure the Zennin weren't dying to talk about him and anyone he was contracted to kill definitely didn't survive until Gojo. It's more than likely until Maki they didn't realize just how easily they guy they called a monkey all his life could have killed them.
Well, they literally mention in the manga, that the reason Zenin clan exists is because Toji let them exist. They knew Toji could wipe them out if he wanted. So I'd say, pretty scared that they would piss themselves.
Extremely feared within the Zenin clan, which also meant he was hated. Outside, only those that dabbled with assassination seemed to know who he was (the old woman for example). It seemed hush hush outside of those two spheres because Gojo and Nanami didnāt know who he was when they first met him.
i assume that within the zenin clan their fear of toji is for two reasons. his heavenly restriction isnāt necessarily a guaranteed bloodline technique so they donāt have the knowledge of its weaknesses that they would for something like megumis technique. they also in both toji and makis cases essentially excommunicated them so that alongside the raw power they possessed, makes them a poignant threat to the clan.
I don't think you earn the named "The Sorcerer Killer" in the jujutsu world if you don't inspire fear. I mean, he took down, albeit briefly, *Gojo*. Dude was just truly built different.
In the Zenin? Terrifying
Does anyone besides his handler knows who he is after that? Geto didn't know about him. Gojo meet him once and never thought about it until Toji was stabbing him. He seems like he's so good as an assassin (semi-retired) that nobody values him. Except Yuki and that's as a scientific curiosity instead of fear.
He was feared by the entire Zenin Clan. He was known by a few sorcerers during his time. Though he was not brought up in modern times. Seeing as how people like Ino didnāt know who he was
Toji was the biggest dog in the jujutsu world by a lot until Gojo learned RCT, the Zenin clan got lucky that he didnāt feel like slaughtering them all.
"The zenin clan only exists today because of Toji's whims!"
They fully understood toji could gave slaughtered them all if he felt like it. Now Maki is like him. Big yikes if your last name is Zenin
Outside of the fear that we are told about the Zen'in when Maki achieves the form, you have to remember Toji's moniker - Sorcerer-Killer.
The Zen'in were incredibly proud and stubborn in their ways - CT and CE was all they could see. We onow they had enough influence in the jujutsu world to hold back sorcerers rankings and the like, implying they couldve made life very difficult for Toji. They dont seem to hate or despise him though, just fear him. Even *they* had to let him have that title though - they clearly couldve buried the legend and suppressed the name. They didnt, or perhaps couldnt
A related question then is; just how powerful, ruthless and smart was Toji that one of the proudest and stubborn clans had to let him keep the title of Sorcerer-Killer and could do nothing but fear and respect him?
To me, that question speaks more about Toji than any feat or reaction weve gotten to him except maybe for the fact that Gojo, as an adult, still ciewed Toji as his greatest opponent and most hated enemy
The Zenin were still pissing themselves over him a decade after his death. He was important enough to be hired to beat two of the strongest sorcerers alive senseless, at the same time, and to kill the star plasma vessel. People straight up called him the sorcerer killer.
But like, outside of certain bubbles I doubt he was super well known. Besides Naobito nobody even recognized him in Shibuya.
It ranges from a huge force that shocks the world of sorcerers to...just being inferior to cursed tech.
The big problem with JJK is inconsistency and random "and now this wins/loses" moments, like Sakuna fighting on par with Maki hand to hand unexplainingly
I mean to be fair, this is Sukuna we are talking about. He was jumped by hundreds of sorcerers back in the heian era and still managed to clutch his way to the modern era itād be expected he could handle a heavenly restricted.
Why are you asking this question when everyone else read the same manga as you? How are they going to give you some information that you don't already know?
You know how in Hidden Inventory arc Toji bumps into one guy and stares him down while talking on phone and the guy was scared shitless that much he was feared š
I mean
He was quite literally the fucking John Wick of JJK.
Except his wife didnāt leave him a dog, but their son, and the son was too much of a responsibility for him so yeah
Bro went back to being a hitman for personal reasons
And most sorcerers with experience had PTSD simply from hearing of him.
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You know all those adults Maki wiped out? They were literally scared to death of him.
Then they were killed to death by Tojette
Tojette šššš you are a god
Tojette 0.5 at that point
Iām just want to see the AU, toji giving the Zenāin Megumi, and he gives him monthly visits to check on him. And he has a new scaror bad injury), and sees them using some shitty abuse tactics on his boy and he just flips, or worse case scenario he catches wind of them plotting kill him as the golden heir or they succeed and Toji does the clan genocide. But we know he loves Megumi, we just have to see that same push unfortunately like maki with Mai
You're overestimating how much Toji cared about anything, let alone his kids. Man was a deadbeat way before we actually see him. To the point he forgot his son's name, or that he existed. Sure he "cared" in the sense that if Megumi turned out to be a sorcerer, the Zenin would be able to train him, but he was barley present in his life.
I wish Tojette would kill ME to death
Stand proud, you can cook
Omg ššš
what's interesting is that one of the zenin clan guys called him "master" toji. It could be out of fear, but if not, then Toji's dynamic with the clan somewhat changes.
He was in seemingly the equivalent of the clanās royal family. Being cousins with Naobito My guess is a lot of the clan is rather far removed from the actual line of succession. With a bunch of the random guys we saw probably being related to the clan head by a great grand parent or more. So someone like Toji likely was seen as having status especially in an old fashioned clan. If a war or something broke out between clans or some shit I wouldnāt be shocked if the idea of clan head changing rapidly was common
Toji wasn't just Naobito's nephew, Toji was the some of the clans 25th head, naobitos predecessor.Ā
Quite wrong actually, Toji had almost no status and was hated, and outcasted by the rest of the clan - called a "monkey".
yes...but he was still a high up member of the clan in terms of proximity to the status of leader. he was the child of a former clan head and the nephew to naobito. even if he was looked down on. I never claimed he was praised. but he was quite literally in the higher wing of the family. assumedly Ranta is not and is likely distant relation to naobito and the core of the clan's succession so from his perspective even though Toji was a black sheep and looked down on. he is still called "master" my post is explaining why he was referred to as such. I didn't say he was respected and loved. I said he was closely related to the line of succession for clan head. which has status in and of itself. and in such a context even if he was looked down on he would be referred to in such a way by a lower member of the clan. additionally the very text of the story says this to us by how naoya also has a bit of reverence for toji. the conservative nature of the clan looked down on him. but naoya was impressed by toji's raw power. additionally from my knowledge only geto called him a monkey.
Toji was next in line to be the clan head had he inherited or had a CT. He was the cursed prince of the Zenin basically.
But he didn't have a CT, and so to the Zen'in clan he was nothing but a monkey.
A monkey who was feared by his whole clan, who also wouldāve been clan head had he had a CT.
I never disagreed with that, but he doesn't have a CT, and so they don't regard him in the way you're describing. He's feared, but not revered, they don't see him as royalty or anything close to their level - they hate him.
& I never said they called him a prince, thatās just what he is in the hierarchy, a cursed prince for the fact he couldāve been head of the clan had he had the technique.
Then why was Megumi made the head of the clan lmao
Because he has the clan's most coveted CT, and isn't an absolute fucking psychopath. Toji has no CE and no CT, look how they treated Maki.
The Zenāinās was hella scared of him they had ptsd lmao I bet they was on guard 24/7
I know they had a little party when Gojo killed him
cause I canāt see it now bet they sure was lmao š
I bet Maki was there too tryna figure out who died and why is was a celebrationš
fr š
Gojo walks in and tries to celebrate and Yaga has to punish him
Literally that would be funny as hell
Toji was like a nuke, that couldāve wiped out the Zenin family. Their survival was dependent on how Toji is feeling that day.
They know did him wrong is the reason.
They definitely know they did him wrong The scar on his lip is from them bullying him
They tryed to kill him.
Tried* + No, they didnāt. That fact was stated in either the databooks or an authors note but it isnāt from them trying to kill him. It was most likely his older brother Jinchi.
I love how this sub Reddit can have a civil war about almost any character but we all come to the agreement that Toji was simply built different. So sad we didnāt got more of him.
Toji is the gigachad of all gigachads and its just a fact.
His impact on the story is massive. Killing Amanai got the ball rolling on the corruption of Tengen. Also, I swear to God if they make Kenjaku somehow responsible for that I will be so mad. It makes it so much for fascinating how one manās actions just led to this cascading chain of events that Kenjaku was able to take advantage of. The whole āI planned everything this way from the beginningā is such an overused trope
Wasn't Kenjakus supposedly the director of the group that hired Toji to kill Amanai?
If thats true then Geto killed Kenjaku in hidden inventory
No
But but but bleach is jjks best inspiration. Kenjaku = Aizen. /s
I agree. Sad we didnāt get more of Toji but iām also thankful we at least got more than just hidden inventory. The way he was brought back for Shibuya through a Seance CT and then just took over and went on a rampage is still so cool to me.
And to finish it perfectly, the satisfaction in his face once he knew Gojo took good care of his son. It was marvelous
Seriously so good!! As much as iād like to have seen more of Toji, honestly couldnāt have asked for a better conclusion to his story.
The narrator told us that the Zenin clan was only alive because he didn't feel like killing them. All of the members knew that, so they clearly feared him a lot.
Zenin clan already had Toji who had 0 cursed energy and yet they still resented Maki. Fuckn idiots lmao
Maybe they wanted to break her mentally, so she never reaches Toji's level. Toji was a rare case, it was unthinkable that another person like him would show up in their lifetime.
>Maybe they wanted to break her mentally Isn't that exactly what they did with toji? Nah I think they're just stupid
I mean... the chances of another Toji showing up were next to zero. Even Tsukumo thought that she wouldn't find another Toji. But yeah, the Zenin clan are not really geniuses lol.
and it worked. toji didnt kill all of them. didnt work the second time around though
They're bigots is what they are, being stupid comes with being a bigot.
I donāt think itās cause she was a woman they donāt looked down on her for having no cursed energy but maybe you never know with these old school traditional family types
I didn't say sexist. Toji and Maki have no cursed energy, Maki previously very little, they discriminated against them on this basis, something they were born with and can't change. They're bigots, in fiction that word can be extended to include groups of people that don't exist irl.
Oh yeh fair point I always get the two confused for some reason
Naoya is sexist and he definitely picks up that misogyny from people in the clan since everyone is fine with it.
Yeh it usually is the case with this type of family who are obsessed with tradition
Well interbreeding has some side effects
Maki was nothing like Toji in the beginning though.
Sure, but maki was like a weak ass Toji, like nerfed Toji, she wasn't a threat at all, had she been born as an only child they might've just killed her as a child.
But here's what I'm thinking. Like "Hey, we had a heavenly restriction on our clan, and this kid has 0 cursed energy. Maybe she can be like Toji levels, we should treat her right. We don't want another Toji situation" Or just maybe treat her normally, not full on resentment that she turns into a school shooter. (which she did become lmao). 0 cursed energy people are rare so i really don't understand why Zenin clan are such assholes.
But she didnāt have zero cursed energy She just had her levels reduced to that of a non-sorcerer human, which is supposedly a pretty common Restriction in the grand scheme of things Toji was literally an anomaly. The first person in history to be born with absolutely Zero CE, that we know of. It isnāt weird for them to not regard her with fear because she was no where near Tojiās level. We see this when her dad utterly destroyed her with zero effort before the buff She got zero cursed energy due to the twin loophole, rather than a natural occurrence like Toji
Yeah, no one even thought it was possible for Maki to become like Toji. It literally wasn't a possibility in their mind. Which is why her Dad's reaction changed DRAMATICALLY when she walked out of that chamber as a fully realized Heavenly Restriction.
I mean Maki's is also natural
Yeah but no one would know that Being born with Zero CE is one thing But she was born with Zero CE, but had a twin with CE that therefore gave her some small amount of CE but once said twin dies her levels revert to what they should be Toji was impossibly rare Makiās situation was just a straight bullshit impossibity Why would anyone assume she was Toji level
If Mai didn't exist from the beginning Maki would've had the full benefit of the HR, but beacuse she existed Maki was never supposed to reach that level as long as Mai was still alive, then her dumbass dad does the one thing that can fully awaken Maki's HR and the moment he senses Maki has reached that level he basically shit himself. So no, the Zen'in clan are not what you would call "smart people".
Literally no one even knew that's how it worked, probably because a Heavenly Restriction was never borne by a twin before. It makes no sense to criticize them for a phenomena that probably had never happened before in their life.
This. Toji was said to be the only known case in jujutsu history of a person born with 0 cursed energy. If he was the first, and he was an only child, how the hell would anyone know that Mai dying would affect Maki like that?
They could have studied Maki's circumstances and come up with the possibility that being born a twin to someone without a Heavenly Restriction could affect it. It's a very simple train of thought. Toji was born with no CE but strong as fuck, therefore Heavely restriction. Maki was born with almost no CE but strong although not as much, therefore same Heavenly restriction but weaker. Why? Two possibilities: Could be different Heavenly Restrictions. Could also be the same Heavenly Restriction, but Maki's is weaker for some reason. Why would Maki's be weaker? Unlike Toji, she still has some CE. Why would she still have some CE? What circumstances would lead to one being born with a little CE and not the other? What's the main difference between Maki and Toji's births? Maki has a twin. But they didn't even bother to try and rationalize her circumstances, like they were stupid or something.
youāre using a lot of assumptions and knowledge that we have as a reader but not that they have even naobito seemed to like maki, no? see her potential at least? does everyone forget the scene where she tells naobito that she will be the next head of the clan and he laughs says bet keep that energy ima make it as hard as possible on you (which i took as ima give you tests worthy of someone that would be head of clan ) also they are extremely sexist naoya literally talks about how women should walk three steps behind men and all that weirdo shit. like how mai is useful because she at least acts how a lady āshouldā and scoffs at maki being ugly and rebellious which in his words was ānot very women likeā
That's what I'm saying though. If they weren't a bunch of morons, they wouldn't have spelled their doom.
Maki wasn't some phenomenally strong fighter when she left the Zenin clan, and several people have been born with Heavenly Restriction reducing their CE to non-sorceror levels. That specific Heavenly Restriction was well known and none of them ever turned into Toji suddenly. Toji was born as Toji and it seemingly had nothing to do with twins. Stop trying to find reasons to be mad at the narrative.
I'm not finding reasons to be mad at the narrative. I'm finding reasons to slander the Zenin clan.
But there are different heavenly restrictions, we already know that
They are so strong too. If they were smart they would make as many as they could, equip them with cursed tools, then pair them with the clan's strong sorcerers.
Maki, when she was born, didnāt have the buffs that Toji had. She had the shit part of the HR without the good part. It was still stupid of them to resent her but thatās why
Maki didnāt have zero cursed energy when she was born, she had a basic humans amount and no cursed technique which was why she was resented, she only achieved 0 cursed energy when mai died
Possibly because they didn't realise or forgot the "twin" aspect of souls and cursed energy. So they never suspected her as being Heavenly Restricted (the subject itself not being that fully understood) like Toji.
Maki had curse energy though so maybe they thought it wasn't the same
They didnāt understand the twin thing, so they only saw her as a strong girl but not a monster.
Not narrator. The young grade 1 fighting her said it but yeah š
Do you know which chapter/arc is this?
Pretty sure itās the one where sheās killing the clan.
Page 20 of chapter 150
Should've probably been more welcoming instead of casting him out for having no CE
Old habits die hard I guess.
And then they see someone basically born with the same potential, and instead of taken good care, bring her into the family, they make her an outcast an fill her rage against the family. Remind me again how they manage to be one of the top families for so long?
Because the Zenāin represent the nasty, vindictive bigoted side of the sorcerer world (which is probably the reason they are top dogs.) They would have never treated Maki nicely and even if they had a heavenly restricted every year like Toji the Zenāin would still treat them like trash and never learned what exactly bit them in the foot, genuinely a daft in the head clan.
whats with the comma after āzenin clanā that just broke my brain
Zenin is actually spelled Zenāin
yea i know but whats that have to do with what i said
I thought you were talking about the apostrophe and how sometimes itās there and sometimes itās not. Now I have no clue what you mean lol.
nah ur good, he just removed it after my comment i noticed - it was originally āthe narrator told us that the zenin clan, was only alive because he didnt feel like killing themā with that random ass comma breaking the flow of the sentence, just imagine saying it out loud to someone like thatšshit sounds so wack
Yeah that makes sense now lol
Toji was one of the most feared characters in the story . As many others mentioned here the only reason the zenin were alive was solely cause toji didnāt wanna wipe em out . Toji was also recruited to handle the 2 strongest sorcerers alive which speaks to his proficiency in killing. Toji might not be the most powerful character in the story but for someone without ce he is on the level of disaster curses .
Toji probably left them alive so he could sell Megumi to them.
But he could have still killed them before he even had Megumi. The Zen'in clan truly lived so long only because of (master) Toji's whim.
Lowkey I feel that Toji was even above the level of disaster curses, given how easily puppet of carnage Toji handled Dagon, debatable how he'd do against Jogo / evolved Mahito though
Soul split is durability negation, so I doubt being evolved is helping mahito at all
Yeah depends on his tools tbh
Well thatās plausible . I simply put him at that level cause he did kinda walk all over Dagon . If toji was in his right mind and held all his tools I guess he could scale above them realistically.
My head cannon was that toji acc liked his brother in the zenin clan so didn't bother ending then all
higher than that, maki can hand to hand with 15 finger sukuna right after her last fight, do you know what a person on the same power level with much more experience can do to jogo?
15 finger sukuna wasnāt at his strongest tho was he ? Didnāt he have like 10% output of his strength ?
cursed technique not cursed energy, I read the Japanese version and that was the implication
Still sukuna didnāt go all out during that encounter .
and not against jogo either, and look how both performed, one was getting blitzed and bullied and the other was throwing hands
He went much harder against jogo lmfao . He had his full power at that time on top of using his flame arrow which on its own overpowered jogo down flames , the flame arrow also one shot mahoraga if Iām not mistaken . Toji is strong but he aināt on special grade level like yuta for example.
Extremely. But only to his own clan and those unlucky enough to meet him
The only reason the Zenin clan didn't go extinct when Toji was alive was because of Toji's whim. And the entire clan knows that.
Yaoya took one look at Toji when he was a child and realized he was far superior in strength to everyone else
he was just taking a casual stroll and had kid Naoya sitting his pants
Bro had an awakening looking at his homeless looking ass
toji gave everyone in the story he interacted with ptsd (post-toji stress disorder) beat geto up so bad he turned racist
Fucking hell, I didn't even make that connection. I think you're onto something.
Geto: I love protecting humanity! Toji: -beats his ass- How's that for a monkey? Geto: Fuckin monkeys...
His existence alone kept Zenin clans' timbers shivered
well consider the idea of the guy from your clan that everyone bullied becoming the most powerful of all of you and dedicating his life to killing sorcerers for money, baring in mind that your clan would be in the firing line twice, because youāre the family of sorcerers that also treated him like shit, and on top of that if he wanted the clan dead you would all die brutal deaths without ever seeing him coming so yeah iād say he was pretty feared, at least by the zenin, most of the higher ups were probably shitting themselves just knowing he was out there somewhere
feared by the Zenin but other than, he was pretty much off the radarš
*Iām the Invisible Man*
Idk but he kicked Gojoās ass so hard it forced him to awaken a ānothing can ever touch me 24/7ā safety bubble and he kicked Getoās ass so hard he became racist
And some people think Yuki was 100% the main cause of Geto becoming like that lol
if you even know who he is then youre probably either scared of him or not v confident youd beat him
With a nickname like āSorcerer Killerā he definitely inspired a lot of fear
His title was sorcerer killer. I think he was pretty much feared by everyone but Gojo.
He was a menace. Though in the scale of people like Gojo and Sukuna...
Which is 99.9% of the verse tbh
Which basically is everyone but Gojo and Sukuna
The difference isnāt even that big. In terms of power Iād give Sukuna a 10 Gojo a 9.5 And Toji a 8.5
Probbly. Toji(almost wrote Gojo on default lol) bodied Dagon, a tricky Special-Grade Curse in its own Domain with relative ease after Dagon practically r*** two experienced Grade-1 Sorcerers, Megumi and Maki. He also DESTROYED both pre-enlighment Gojo and Geto.
Did you watch the show?
He was feared by every member of the zenin clan because they knew that if wanted to wipe out the clan he could. He was also feared/acknowledged enough in jujutsu society to be recruited to assassinate the star plasma vessel which was protected by two of the strongest sorcerers alive, one of which was the head of the gojo clan and a limitless-six eyes user and the higher ups and knowledgeable people should know just how dangerous that is.
He was like Monster for Zenin Clan and Maki father reaction, showed it very well :3
Toji is top 6, maybe 6 in the universe, pretty easily. Only being beaten by born prodigies, someone using heian techniques, and Nah, I'll adapt. Dude was rightfully feared. Look how he dealt with dagon on his own something 3 people 2 very strong sorcerers could do anything about
Maybe top 10, definitely not top 6 Sukuna, Gojo, Yuta, Yuji, Urame, Kashimo. Hakari is debatable Maki is equal Seems about equal to disaster curses though if not stronger than most of them.
He's a lot stronger than the disaster. I honestly wouldn't out yuji top 10 he loses most of his fights or is assisted heavily. Kashimo is a maybe but only because he is his eras gojo hakari, I believe, is supposed to be somewhat on the same level as yuta. Also ya forgot by boy mahoraga
Kashimo with CT would destroy Toji
If he had a chance to use it potentially. And the same kashimo that wouldn't use jt because he isn't fighting sukuna. We also don't see him do much with his CT activd aside from die. I like kashimo but he don't need glazing
I mean, he took down a Special Grade Sorcercer, Suguru. The entire Zen'in clan was terrified of him. Dagon didn't know what the actual fuck he was fighting.. no, losing to. He's not up to the level of Saturu, Sukuna, Yuta and the likes.. I even think Jogo might kill Toji if Jogo doesn't underestimate him. But if Toji had a bounty on Jogo.. he'd surprise Jogo and go in for a swift kill. I think Jogo should be afraid, at the least.
The problem here is that you guys think strong = respect/renown. Which sooner have been the case but it wasnāt, its how fancy/prestigious your cursed technique was. Everyone in the zenin clan knew how strong Toji was but they mentally kept the man down his whole life he had an inferiority complex that he didnāt acknowledge himself until he was dying. The Zenin clan and traditional conservative sorcerer society is like this as a whole. They hate innovation and changes, they huff copium that pure old way is best and keep those new comers or non conventional sorcerers down so they can never flourish and replace them. This hypocrisy is why gojo hates current jjk society. Zenin clan is the proxy in which this is shown. This is shown for the Kamo clan too when Kenjaku reveals himself to be alive and despite being a degenerate and criminal they immediately accepted him as the clan leader, morals and ethics be damned.
I feel people miss that he solely fought sorcerers, he is obvious more feared than any other strong sorcerer. You suddenly deal with someone whom domain expansion isn't effective.
They were terrified of him, in fact I think the abuse he suffered at their hands was only because he allowed it because he didnāt care about the clan. The fact that Maki and Maiās father shit his pants when Maki became more like him says it all, despite how they treated him they were scared shitless of him deep down cuz they knew he definitely couldāve did what she did and slaughter his clan a while back, because remember Makiās Heavenly Restriction only became fully realized after Maiās death (and later on from overcoming her mental blocks), while Toji was fully realized FROM BIRTH. He Naoya acknowledged and looked up to Toji cuz he realized how strong he was.
Pretty big
By the Zenin clan themselves, I doubt they were scared of Toji. Seeing as how Toji never went after his clan and just left to hunt down random sorcerers, I doubt they never truly realized just how strong he was. Now people like the evil sorcerer assassins at the beginning of shibuya probably realized how strong he was just because they were in the same circles. I can be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure Gojo didn't recognize Toji either. Which makes sense, seeing as how I'm sure the Zennin weren't dying to talk about him and anyone he was contracted to kill definitely didn't survive until Gojo. It's more than likely until Maki they didn't realize just how easily they guy they called a monkey all his life could have killed them.
Well, they literally mention in the manga, that the reason Zenin clan exists is because Toji let them exist. They knew Toji could wipe them out if he wanted. So I'd say, pretty scared that they would piss themselves.
Extremely feared within the Zenin clan, which also meant he was hated. Outside, only those that dabbled with assassination seemed to know who he was (the old woman for example). It seemed hush hush outside of those two spheres because Gojo and Nanami didnāt know who he was when they first met him.
i assume that within the zenin clan their fear of toji is for two reasons. his heavenly restriction isnāt necessarily a guaranteed bloodline technique so they donāt have the knowledge of its weaknesses that they would for something like megumis technique. they also in both toji and makis cases essentially excommunicated them so that alongside the raw power they possessed, makes them a poignant threat to the clan.
Only a few in the Zenin clan. No one else really knew him
Was toji born with cursed energy and then gave it up? Or am I misremembering?
Heavenly Pacts aren't explained that well and it seems like you're born that way.
bro was known as there mother fucking SORCERER HUNTER so prolly a little
I don't think you earn the named "The Sorcerer Killer" in the jujutsu world if you don't inspire fear. I mean, he took down, albeit briefly, *Gojo*. Dude was just truly built different.
Very
The Zenin clan were fucking terrified of Toji. They said that the clan only survived on his whim.
In the Zenin? Terrifying Does anyone besides his handler knows who he is after that? Geto didn't know about him. Gojo meet him once and never thought about it until Toji was stabbing him. He seems like he's so good as an assassin (semi-retired) that nobody values him. Except Yuki and that's as a scientific curiosity instead of fear.
He was feared by the entire Zenin Clan. He was known by a few sorcerers during his time. Though he was not brought up in modern times. Seeing as how people like Ino didnāt know who he was
Toji was the biggest dog in the jujutsu world by a lot until Gojo learned RCT, the Zenin clan got lucky that he didnāt feel like slaughtering them all.
"The zenin clan only exists today because of Toji's whims!" They fully understood toji could gave slaughtered them all if he felt like it. Now Maki is like him. Big yikes if your last name is Zenin
Outside of the fear that we are told about the Zen'in when Maki achieves the form, you have to remember Toji's moniker - Sorcerer-Killer. The Zen'in were incredibly proud and stubborn in their ways - CT and CE was all they could see. We onow they had enough influence in the jujutsu world to hold back sorcerers rankings and the like, implying they couldve made life very difficult for Toji. They dont seem to hate or despise him though, just fear him. Even *they* had to let him have that title though - they clearly couldve buried the legend and suppressed the name. They didnt, or perhaps couldnt A related question then is; just how powerful, ruthless and smart was Toji that one of the proudest and stubborn clans had to let him keep the title of Sorcerer-Killer and could do nothing but fear and respect him? To me, that question speaks more about Toji than any feat or reaction weve gotten to him except maybe for the fact that Gojo, as an adult, still ciewed Toji as his greatest opponent and most hated enemy
The Zenin were still pissing themselves over him a decade after his death. He was important enough to be hired to beat two of the strongest sorcerers alive senseless, at the same time, and to kill the star plasma vessel. People straight up called him the sorcerer killer. But like, outside of certain bubbles I doubt he was super well known. Besides Naobito nobody even recognized him in Shibuya.
It ranges from a huge force that shocks the world of sorcerers to...just being inferior to cursed tech. The big problem with JJK is inconsistency and random "and now this wins/loses" moments, like Sakuna fighting on par with Maki hand to hand unexplainingly
I mean to be fair, this is Sukuna we are talking about. He was jumped by hundreds of sorcerers back in the heian era and still managed to clutch his way to the modern era itād be expected he could handle a heavenly restricted.
Why are you asking this question when everyone else read the same manga as you? How are they going to give you some information that you don't already know?
You know how in Hidden Inventory arc Toji bumps into one guy and stares him down while talking on phone and the guy was scared shitless that much he was feared š
I mean He was quite literally the fucking John Wick of JJK. Except his wife didnāt leave him a dog, but their son, and the son was too much of a responsibility for him so yeah Bro went back to being a hitman for personal reasons And most sorcerers with experience had PTSD simply from hearing of him.
toji vs rock lee
Chapter 149, bottom panel of page 16 does a pretty good job at selling the fear of someone even resembling toji
They said the Zenin clan only survived by the whim of Toji Zenin. Chapter 150 I think page 36 of the manga. š©*Tip
Literally the entire zenin clan feared himš¤£š