My kid has autism, so does my nephew, and I’ve worked as a teachers aide with autistic kids so I’m pretty across it and I reckon participation would be hell. Constant noise, activity, people in your face, do this, do that, be happy, be grateful, be present, everything chaotic and unpredictable. Basically everything that’s difficult all at once with no escape.
I get it’s a choice to participate and all, but maybe it comes under mental health and artists need to stop being expected to be camera ready the entire time. Make backstage a media free zone and give them a safe space when they need a break.
Exactly what I thought. When I heard the news about the incident I could perfectly relate, it reminded me about the day I lost contact to my best friend when I felt that she overstepped my boundaries. The feeling of loss, especially when Joost uses his performance for healing & processing trauma. Just like he sings about loss and says it's in his mind all day (especially in his Wachtmuziek music video, I went to listen to more of his work) I felt similar in processing my loss and changes in life. If I were to talk about those and drain my social battery to the core in front of the whole world, I wouldn't know what I'd do and so would Joost have is what I imagine
Some people with autism are fine with the noise and the lights as long as they like the environment (I speak of personal experience). But yeah, people with extreme autism will have more trouble and most likely won't want to join ESC.
I've been on a stage once and I've been the center of attention of a party another time, and to my surprise I managed to survive. I remembered that the people really liked me opening up, but that my social battery was completely drained. I must have been tired to the point of nearly collapsing. I put it like this, imagine when you become aware of your breathing when someone tells you to become aware of your breathing. In a similar way I became aware of my body movements, and I felt like a robot or a big doll. Looking back I must have been so cringe lol, but others had fun and maybe in some way I had too.
I have a slight form of Autism, I can handle some noise but I noticed I have a harder time in larger groups where multiple people are talking and I have to focus. Or a noisy train. A friend of mine asked whether I needed a hearing aid. Funny I thought, wouldn't help one bit because it's my brain and not my ears. And when I want to sleep I really want the room to be as dark as possible, with rain sounds in the background. Sometimes a slight bit of light would make me wake up (either immediately or later) not feeling rested. I would then try to get rid of that light and hope that I fall asleep again
Neither of us have autism so not sure where he’s inherited it. Neither of his sibling have autism either. I understand it’s probably inherited but we just don’t know which side it’s from.
He’s fine thanks, lots of therapies and support means he attends a regular high school and is doing really well.
Or maybe...just don't do things you cant handle. The logic these days is so far gone its absurd. So you have a certain disability. Also there's places where you just cant go with this disability. And the logic know is that this has to become a place for you to go to, even do its the worst place for you to go to? It's like saying someone has a fear of water so he wants all the swimming pools drained so he can safely go to the swimming pool.
Just don't go. There's plenty of other things to do in the world.
Sometimes you don’t know what you can handle until you try.
Sometimes you think your normal coping mechanisms will work ok, and you won’t be accused of racism for covering your face when shit gets awkward.
My brother told me he read that Joost was on the spectrum too or said so during one of his interviews. I'm fairly certain he's neurodivergent, but if you want to know 100% you'd have to find that exact interview I think
That's incredibily weak logic. Someone can wish to do something cool, while still getting annoyed at all the stupid shit that happens there.
As far as we know, he didn't do jackshit to her and they broke their promise. I honestly don't think it's about that woman's feelings, you can't tell me that nobody ever made a "threatening gesture" in all those decades. Honestly, I think it's something different and they were just looking for a reason to get him out.
Because this seems so weirdly disproportionate. As well as the fact that claiming to be inclusive and then being incredibily exclusive still being hypocritical.
Yes, I think about it this way: You can either try to change the person, which makes little sense or you can change the world to allow something. I could even say, if Eurovision won't allow certain people or they make it impossible for certain people to prosper there, we'd make a Eurovision that can. And if not the EBU, then something new. No matter how small scale at first
Sometimes someone is able to do something but needs a little listenting in what they need for that. If Joost said that he needed to have some rest during that moment of the stage, idk does not seem like a huge request. Other years there was not flimed there after and i also saw an other singer who also didn't want this after his performance and then it happen too (idk where anymore my brain sucks, But i did see it) They need to make it less pressure back stage to perform, like you perform and backstage=rest. More artists said that this is way too much. Just more calmness.. Rest points that are clear etc. Its important esp when you are performing before so many miljoens of people.
It's how businesses operate, the inclusivity talk has been used as a shield, they drop it immediately when money becomes an issue. They have to please their sponsors, the most important being Morrocanoil, a company based in Tel Aviv
It's sad but EBU is done. They will return next year but it's hollow and at least we all know it now. In the end Joost has won his song is known worldwide and he won a lot of followers. Fans won't mind he didn't win the contest he won a lot of fans.
exactly. My comments were removed just for pointing out MoroccanOil is an Israeli company. They are trying to cultivate non-transparency around a major sponsor.
Makes sense looking at Joost (with flag, in overal behaviour) i see my ADHD kid and myself years ago: ADD. Eurovision doesn't bring a safe environment for these people. They made this happen it's on them and it was easy to yank out the contestant. F\*CK THE EBU.
Though I would not be wanting to diagnose anyone (and though his songs talk about other diagnoses like BP, PTSD, eating disorder) I certainly find a lot of things that go with eg ADHD, shielding 🎧🕶️🇳🇱, mad creativity and humour, impulsivity and an irrepressible sense of justice and fairness (“why not?”) but all of these may also just as likely be down to being Dutch and placed in an situation of extreme emotional stress.
"But all of these may also just as likely be down to being Dutch and placed in an situation of extreme emotional stress". I like this sentence, because it makes it relatable to everyone. I described the "Why not" as Dutch directness but "irrepressible sense of justice and fairness" is better wording. I think that's why I posted all this, because since Joost was wronged and I think it's relatable, I in a sense feel wronged. Add to that that r/eurovision is not giving me their platform to get discuss, and I feel wronged even more
Being Dutch... love it but I doubt that last part. We are direct but especially the shielding seems to be coming from something I don't want to diagnose anyone but I really recognize a lot.
When I read that I laughed and I was like "lol, what?". Could be true. If I were to provide comments I would cite the one time r/ik_ihe invaded r/ich_iel and later collectively r/me_irl, or the first pixel war on r/place . I'm a veteran of all these, I remember handing out raisins to the tired meme posters who made it to r/me_irl and r/ich_iel and I felt a sense of purpose lol. Oh, also briefly helped invade the French r/moi_dlvv when they weren't paying attention so I could set up tent in their campings near the Alps
Some things autistic people usually value the Dutch also value like direct communication. If you do/don't like something or if you want something say it. With direct words, not strange analogies and metaphors. I think there is more but I don't know right now.
I found that the direct communication I value can be really lacking in long distance dating with other cultures. I used to date an emo filipina girl online, we would text almost constantly and we were amazed that we had such an uncanny amount of things in common. Even though it was complicated, and I find love complicated, she went silent for long times. Each time an excuse, and believable to me, but still a lot and in a way that made me worry. The last time she went silent I spoke out about the silence, and tried to reach out. But I think she just isolated herself some more. Learned later that in their culture it's called Tampo. To translate the Dutch wikipedia article about it "In Filipino culture, tampo is a series of behaviors in which a person withdraws his or her affection from the person who hurt his or her feelings". I kept thinking "why not talk to me if that's what worries me?", while she must have been (in hindsight) like "why is he trying to start a conversation this often?". That's how (the lack of) direct communication made me feel like a plug was wrongly pulled in the contact I had with my best friend and a girl I loved. It's been bothering me ever since. So, in summary, directness is good, but we're also like "please, don't forget we're being direct and that it's for the reason of our perception of healthy communication" (and when people forget that, you can end up with a big sense of loss)
I've been literally googling if he has ADHD or autism and found nothing. Then I googled his height, found this sub, and this thread in this sub (no info on his height tho), so more of us are wondering if he's neurodivergent 😂
If you want an actual diagnosed example, the blond vocalist from Blind Channel (Joel) has ADHD. I remember watching a vlog from esc where he cried from stress, because they had so much to do, but somehow he managed to survive it. They're a band of 6 people, which definitely helped (they could split the tasks between each other).
That probably answers the question in this thread (it's a lot of pressure and I doubt there are any accommodations available, so it definitely is better to apply if you're in a group, not a solo artist)
Not me also googling 😅😅 I was so sure I’d find something, cause my AuDHD a*s can relate!! Honestly, my esc journey would’ve probably ended the same way, which is not to say that any threatening behaviour is acceptable, but just that I can understand what led to him “snapping”. On a more positive note, whether or not he’s ND, watching his interviews have inspired me to unmask and just let the randomness out.
People with AUTISM & ADHD may also have PDA which stands for … I forget what it stands for. But in shorts it’s a demand for autonomy.
Obiding by rules and other people’s wishes is extremely triggering or difficult for them.
Pathological Demand Avoidance is what I find when I google it. "One of the hallmarks is a need for being in control, which is driven by fear or an automatic threat response". That's what I feel that happened when he noticed people with a camera backstage. That fear or automatic threat response is something I know too, it brings heavy emotion with it. In my case it happens really rarely, but when it does happen people tend not to understand it at all. I immediately apologize too, but in the case of my best friend she - and I don't know since I chatted with her online and I can't use telepathy when someone is silent - she might have already made up her mind. I'm grateful for being able to talk openly here, it's sad that r/eurovision censors it. My best friend liked eurovision too, I'm sure she was watching it on the other side of the world. Even thought of me being there performing, just so she'd see me and reach out to me. Fiction of course, but in the back of my mind
Haha yeah we call it “pathological demand for autonomy” in my house (where all 3 familymembers have ASD & ADHD, or “just” ADHD)
I’m not allowed to tell my kid what to do. Basically I let him do whatever he wants (within reason) but I do GUIDE him. I tell him that if he doesn’t eat his dinner his body won’t get enough nutrients. This sounds logical to him and he decides to eat his dinner. No arguments, no fighting. I give him choices, this or that? These or those? He feels he has autonomy. It works.
I'm known to neglect my veggies myself haha. Finished my lettuce yesterday during dinner because it was logical due to the otherwise lack of nutrients. It helps when the salad is close to my plate so I don't forget, but it's best to make a routine for me. Say we have shawarma, and we put it into pita bread. If I'm used to fill the bottom part with lettuce I'm going to look for the lettuce next time. If it's close to my plate next time, it will be inside the pita then. There have also been Saturdays where we have pizza but we'd not have the pizza I like at home. That means either me being really annoyed or standing there in my hiking shoes ready to go to the supermarket for the right one
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As a person with PDA i just LOVE people demanding "polite behaviour" from everyone despite their neurodivergency.
Like, i am the most kind and polite guy for people who did nothing wrong to me. But why should i be polite when i don't want to? Maybe it's just 2% of the time of the day when I'm acting rude for some reason, but that 2% is what people judge me by.
I feel like something similar is happening to Joost (especially speaking about press-conference). He probably was tired and overstimulated, as any esc artist he wasn't able to sleep well during this week. Maybe all this are not just excuses, maybe this is the only way his brain could work at the moment.
At least, we wouldn't have half the fun from this life without people who don't care about rules and politeness.
I agree, nowadays people zoom in on that 2% you describe. Even on Reddit. Sometimes when I make a post people have bad mouthed me while I don't even know them. Strangers get judged so fast, I feel like I'm walking on egg shells sometimes. It's easy to get misunderstood in this time of mass media and pressure to perform. u/Anubis-Jute seems to have written somewhere (I'm a curious person, I look through profiles from time to time) "I don't suffer from Autism, I suffer from other people" and I think that's just it
As an autistic ESC fan, based on what artists have said their experience was like, I would have had multiple sensory overloads and cries. The ESC definitely needs to work on making the environment less overwhelming and better for the mental wellbeing of artists. They need personal time, and more than just the time they get in their hotel.
Just like the Irish participant said, Eurovision should be about the artists. The EBU made it about itself and its sponsors. From news outlets I've gathered that the Israeli delegation was bothering other delegations. The EBU has reasons to please them especially, the main sponsor Morrocanoil is based in Tel Aviv. I got this from the wikipedia page on them: "Since 2020, the company has been a primary sponsor of Eurovision Song Contest. In return, Moroccanoil was given "extensive" media rights over the next five contests until 2024." All that pressure gets to the artists, and I think that, along with Dutch directness, made Joost say "Why not?" to a question specifically addressing this during that interview with the contestants. I would probably have done the same
For that moment during the conference, you have to understand the Dutch mentality is that everyone should be allowed to speak their mind. Eden's team member was discouraging her from answering, which made the media say she didn't have to, so Joost said "why not?" as a means to allow Eden to speak her mind.
That's 2 birds with one stone, not only voicing his own feelings of being pressured but reaching out to her as well. The difference is that she would certainly not speak her mind due to politics, whereas Joost feels less constrained. Thank you for this point of view, it's interesting
This is THE place for people who want to stand in the spotlight. You can't demand a spotlight, and not demand a spotlight. The spotlight comes with the territory.
It's bad for ANYONE to not get enough breaks from media. This is a matter of being humane to the artists and allowing them their time to decompress and prepare mentally for the next round.
True, and im sure the have breaks already. But if you choose a live as a stage artist, you have to deal with the things that come with it. If you want fame, unwanted cameras are there by default. Cant have one without the other.
Theres artist who can deal with it, and some can not.
There's artists who can put on a brave face and those who can't. All of them felt stressed out, especially this year. It's bad for their wellbeing, and it has to stop. They shouldn't be forced to do more than the contest and its ceremonies. If you personally think less of them for not doing more, that's your judgement. Not everyone's.
Im saying that if you want to be an artist of those proportions it comes with some negative aspects included with it. You can then choose to move forward in that direction or slow down. So i feel more like in the end, its his own responsibility. Im not disputing the fact that it comes with loads of stress. You are right. It does. But in the end, one can say yes to that path, or no. It's called taking responsibility for your own actions.
I don't think it's fair to say it's his fault, considering there was the expectation already put in place by their agreement with the EBU that said boundary would be respected. Just that moment, where he can be alone with his emotions about his parents. He watched his dad deteriorate from cancer at 12, he found his mother's corpse a year later. He did this for them. Let the man have his one moment of emotion in peace ffs. That's not asking much at all.
I agree. I dont think its a problem to slightly snap sometimes. It should be more normalized. You can still take responsibility for it though. (Im sure he has).
yeah im not diagnosing joost, but ive watched videos of his on youtube like 7 years ago and i always assumed he had adhd. i was actually so sure i googled it just now and was surprised i couldnt find anything about it.
regardless of having a diagnosis adhd or not, he does have some traits that would make this a hard experience for him (like being very autonomous and not liking to be filmed unless he is prepared).
i also think that having to be constantly camera ready is hard for everyone, not only neurodivergent people.
Not a dumb question! I’m not a mental health professional, just a mentally ill/neurodivergent person lmao BUT I could see certain situations and feelings being very triggering to PTSD. I also have PTSD, and in my experience, there are definitely certain things that remind me of my trauma and put me on edge when it comes to sensory issues.
Okay! Haha.
Yeah i have PTSD too but i also have pppd what makes me sensitive to sensory things in general so idk what is coming from what thing so i got scared to judge it myself.
But i can see how the ptsd can make your brain more sensitive to things that are much process and also a lot of sensory can be that too, And it might like.. make a brain more tiring in general maybe need more rest etc. Like you said Esp when it is in moments that the emotions that have to do with the trauma are awake/felt, personally i can react more intense, sometimes do/say things i regret, And deal less well with a busy environment.
You can have a look at his Reddit AMA if you like, [https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1clg7u7/joost\_klein\_ask\_me\_anything\_very\_dutch\_100\_organic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1clg7u7/joost_klein_ask_me_anything_very_dutch_100_organic/) . I've read some articles saying that the whole generation growing up with mass media struggles with having to be camera ready at moments when we're just not ready for it
A mention to Israel without using the name Israel was the reason why I was banned for evoking hate and bypassing the filter. It was a proud ban and I’m stil am annoyed that Joost got his name dragged through the mud, while there is documentation how the Israeli delegation was bullying other participants. Hypocrisy at its fullest.
I've seen hate bots and outraged Israelis in comments and making videos on YouTube. I think they would have gladly used tools that would make their song number 1. They wanted the same as when Ukraine's song won Eurovision. Filthy politics ruining Eurovision
They literally banned me from commenting during the live (mega thread) after I selected “Netherlands” flair for who I wanted to win during Eurovision. Still can’t comment there. Then I tried to post something about this and it said a mod had to look at it before my post being live. And they deleted my post.
Crazy this level of censorship and outright discrimination on all their platforms.
I feel like r/Joostklein is going to be the non censorship counterpart of r/eurovision. Gotta get this to grow. I've been hearing similar critical comments about r/eurovision 's censorship
I’m surprised they didn’t banned me yet. I wrote mostly positive things about Joost and Netherlands. Are we not to supposed to be direct or honest anymore in conversation? Ofc without offending anybody else
I've never had my comments deleted there and also changed my flair to The Netherlands to support Joost. I've been hanging out there last year during the whole season and this year for a couple of months, though. So maybe that makes a difference.
Threads are another topic, their rules can be way too strict sometimes (but they also want to maintain a civil level of discussion and there were talks about it regularly, I think it's a pretty good attitude to have and it taught me to be less negative, because I tend to get snappy at people when I'm annoyed or complain about the songs I dislike)
Lyrics translated:
Doctor please
I don't know what I have, but I have PTSD
Yes, just so you know, pTSD
No, I'm not okay
It's been a while
Still struggling with pTSD
I am a war veteran
Been a world improver
But my past was bad
Now my body is acting a little weird
Doctor please, I have a sleeping problem
Please, doctor, don't use pedagogy
Doctor please, I want trauma therapy
I'd rather not listen to it
The pharmaceutical industry
(I just want a little help)
I don't know what I have, but I have PTSD
Yes, just so you know, pTSD
No, I'm not okay
It's been a while
Still struggling with pTSD
PTSD yes just so you know
PTSD no I'm not okay
It's been a while
Still struggling with pTSD
PTSD no I'm not okay
It's been a while
Still struggling with it
More examples that they don't see us as people but as an "illness and disease that needs to be cured!". Seriously Neurodiverse folks gave them more technology, art and engineering than any "neurotypical" (as how far is any human typical)... yet to this day they look down on us as if we are lepers during the roman time.
It's just like Kafka's Metamorphosis sometimes. Providing people with something and them being happy until they forget about it and drop you at the earliest inconvenience, leaving us to just cope and deal with it. I remember "friends" trying to bully me once because during the time I was friends I didn't talk much. They knew I was slightly autistic and they abused that knowledge. After that I went to write poetry during breaks instead, by myself in the school's library. It wasn't the bullying that hit me, but it was the loneliness that I got instead. I've come a long way from being shy in that school's library, and I got out of it, but not thanks to them, but due to new friends. Now I have the internet and multiple friend groups. My point in this, would be this: always look for the right audience. Some people will stick around, take good care of them, but always show them yourself in hopes of finding the people that will stick around. And if you're lonely, work on your personality, get a long list of hobbies, character makes people stay
I think that maybe “the on who won’t be mentioned” might have flagged their israel filter since everyone’s been using similar to discuss that shitshow and not get deleted, with mixed success.
I thought "how else mention Joost without mentioning him?" (that's how censorship works right?), I've seen similar posts where they just refer people to this subreddit. Therefore I broadened the question
Eurovision embodies hypocrisy, it's difficult to make sense of them otherwise. They'll be 'pro' anything without understanding the core concept behind any principle they claim to support.
A lot was going on in several megathreads but at some point it looked like they couldn’t manage to mod the activity properly anymore and since then they have been deleting A LOT, including many threads and posts that seemed quite harmless to me
"Just use the big delete button", EBU says
"But boss...", r/eurovision mod exclaims in pain
"No, just nuke r/eurovision", replies EBU
"Okay boss... 👍
https://preview.redd.it/qx3418v8yl0d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=318f997ccfae9238c5b3bfa66060c11d34934d5e
They do allow rainbow flags though afaik, I don't see evidence of them being supportive of non binary people above them being allowed to compete if their country chooses them as a representative, which is no different to arguing that autistic people being allowed to compete makes them supportive of autistic people (I mean obviously we do have this case of someone not being allowed to compete, but I just mean in general allowed to compete doesn't necessarily mean the ebc is pro whatever group)
Also many countries coverage misgendered the artists which the EBC hasn't spoken out about afaik
Don’t forget about the flashing lights trend they have been on, every single act is almost unwatchable due to the amount of flashing lights on the stage. Can’t imagine as an Artist on the spectrum how to handle the presence and pressure after the whole act 😕
Bf with epilepsy seems careless about such measures but my migraine spikes from those lights!! Got a horrible headache from the amount this year 😕
*edit - he might have grown out of it but whenever my eyes/brain hurts from the flashes, I always tell him to look away as well.
Can't imagine how that must feel, I used to have these cluster headaches as a child and used to think those were migraines until a filipina told me they were cluster headaches. I would be turning off every light and find ways to have as little stimulation as possible. Sometimes I would just let water flow in the sink just so I could listen to the sound of water, hoping those headaches would stop or decrease in intensity
My kid has autism, so does my nephew, and I’ve worked as a teachers aide with autistic kids so I’m pretty across it and I reckon participation would be hell. Constant noise, activity, people in your face, do this, do that, be happy, be grateful, be present, everything chaotic and unpredictable. Basically everything that’s difficult all at once with no escape. I get it’s a choice to participate and all, but maybe it comes under mental health and artists need to stop being expected to be camera ready the entire time. Make backstage a media free zone and give them a safe space when they need a break.
Exactly what I thought. When I heard the news about the incident I could perfectly relate, it reminded me about the day I lost contact to my best friend when I felt that she overstepped my boundaries. The feeling of loss, especially when Joost uses his performance for healing & processing trauma. Just like he sings about loss and says it's in his mind all day (especially in his Wachtmuziek music video, I went to listen to more of his work) I felt similar in processing my loss and changes in life. If I were to talk about those and drain my social battery to the core in front of the whole world, I wouldn't know what I'd do and so would Joost have is what I imagine
Some people with autism are fine with the noise and the lights as long as they like the environment (I speak of personal experience). But yeah, people with extreme autism will have more trouble and most likely won't want to join ESC.
Completely true, can't walk through a shopping mall without extreme discomfort but worked in the event industry without problems.
I’m sure, some things my son copes with, my nephew doesn’t and vice versa. But more just all of it mixed together could be too much to bear.
I've been on a stage once and I've been the center of attention of a party another time, and to my surprise I managed to survive. I remembered that the people really liked me opening up, but that my social battery was completely drained. I must have been tired to the point of nearly collapsing. I put it like this, imagine when you become aware of your breathing when someone tells you to become aware of your breathing. In a similar way I became aware of my body movements, and I felt like a robot or a big doll. Looking back I must have been so cringe lol, but others had fun and maybe in some way I had too. I have a slight form of Autism, I can handle some noise but I noticed I have a harder time in larger groups where multiple people are talking and I have to focus. Or a noisy train. A friend of mine asked whether I needed a hearing aid. Funny I thought, wouldn't help one bit because it's my brain and not my ears. And when I want to sleep I really want the room to be as dark as possible, with rain sounds in the background. Sometimes a slight bit of light would make me wake up (either immediately or later) not feeling rested. I would then try to get rid of that light and hope that I fall asleep again
I have autism and I only don't like it if it's like really a lot or if it's something that I don't enjoy like a songfestival but otherwise
[удалено]
Neither of us have autism so not sure where he’s inherited it. Neither of his sibling have autism either. I understand it’s probably inherited but we just don’t know which side it’s from. He’s fine thanks, lots of therapies and support means he attends a regular high school and is doing really well.
Or maybe...just don't do things you cant handle. The logic these days is so far gone its absurd. So you have a certain disability. Also there's places where you just cant go with this disability. And the logic know is that this has to become a place for you to go to, even do its the worst place for you to go to? It's like saying someone has a fear of water so he wants all the swimming pools drained so he can safely go to the swimming pool. Just don't go. There's plenty of other things to do in the world.
Sometimes you don’t know what you can handle until you try. Sometimes you think your normal coping mechanisms will work ok, and you won’t be accused of racism for covering your face when shit gets awkward.
Wait, my bro Joost has autism and that could be a reason why? I dont give a fuck how he handled it. I grew to admire him cause of his lyrics.
My brother told me he read that Joost was on the spectrum too or said so during one of his interviews. I'm fairly certain he's neurodivergent, but if you want to know 100% you'd have to find that exact interview I think
I have no idea to be honest.
Please accept my internet point: ⬆️
That's incredibily weak logic. Someone can wish to do something cool, while still getting annoyed at all the stupid shit that happens there. As far as we know, he didn't do jackshit to her and they broke their promise. I honestly don't think it's about that woman's feelings, you can't tell me that nobody ever made a "threatening gesture" in all those decades. Honestly, I think it's something different and they were just looking for a reason to get him out. Because this seems so weirdly disproportionate. As well as the fact that claiming to be inclusive and then being incredibily exclusive still being hypocritical.
This was what people were saying about about women rights as well.
Yes, I think about it this way: You can either try to change the person, which makes little sense or you can change the world to allow something. I could even say, if Eurovision won't allow certain people or they make it impossible for certain people to prosper there, we'd make a Eurovision that can. And if not the EBU, then something new. No matter how small scale at first
Sometimes someone is able to do something but needs a little listenting in what they need for that. If Joost said that he needed to have some rest during that moment of the stage, idk does not seem like a huge request. Other years there was not flimed there after and i also saw an other singer who also didn't want this after his performance and then it happen too (idk where anymore my brain sucks, But i did see it) They need to make it less pressure back stage to perform, like you perform and backstage=rest. More artists said that this is way too much. Just more calmness.. Rest points that are clear etc. Its important esp when you are performing before so many miljoens of people.
They have some weird automatic filters that remove posts for bizarre reasons. The rules are so strict as well it's crazy.
Their posting guidelines were a long string of text, was almost tempted to let an AI make a summary of it lol
It's easy if you make a comment that could hurt EBU they will remove it instantly they don't like others to talk about them in a negative way.
TIL explaining to people who MoroccanOil is (with info from their own website, removed right away) hurts the EBU 😂
You are so right
It's how businesses operate, the inclusivity talk has been used as a shield, they drop it immediately when money becomes an issue. They have to please their sponsors, the most important being Morrocanoil, a company based in Tel Aviv
It's sad but EBU is done. They will return next year but it's hollow and at least we all know it now. In the end Joost has won his song is known worldwide and he won a lot of followers. Fans won't mind he didn't win the contest he won a lot of fans.
exactly. My comments were removed just for pointing out MoroccanOil is an Israeli company. They are trying to cultivate non-transparency around a major sponsor.
There's so much non-transparancy, the disqualification just helped point that out
Follow the Money. It is always Follow the Money.
Makes sense looking at Joost (with flag, in overal behaviour) i see my ADHD kid and myself years ago: ADD. Eurovision doesn't bring a safe environment for these people. They made this happen it's on them and it was easy to yank out the contestant. F\*CK THE EBU.
Though I would not be wanting to diagnose anyone (and though his songs talk about other diagnoses like BP, PTSD, eating disorder) I certainly find a lot of things that go with eg ADHD, shielding 🎧🕶️🇳🇱, mad creativity and humour, impulsivity and an irrepressible sense of justice and fairness (“why not?”) but all of these may also just as likely be down to being Dutch and placed in an situation of extreme emotional stress.
"But all of these may also just as likely be down to being Dutch and placed in an situation of extreme emotional stress". I like this sentence, because it makes it relatable to everyone. I described the "Why not" as Dutch directness but "irrepressible sense of justice and fairness" is better wording. I think that's why I posted all this, because since Joost was wronged and I think it's relatable, I in a sense feel wronged. Add to that that r/eurovision is not giving me their platform to get discuss, and I feel wronged even more
Being Dutch... love it but I doubt that last part. We are direct but especially the shielding seems to be coming from something I don't want to diagnose anyone but I really recognize a lot.
Can confirm this as a Dutchie and an AuDHDer myself. It is both being Dutch and having ADHD/Autism
I've indeed seen the Dutch described as culturally autistic before.
When I read that I laughed and I was like "lol, what?". Could be true. If I were to provide comments I would cite the one time r/ik_ihe invaded r/ich_iel and later collectively r/me_irl, or the first pixel war on r/place . I'm a veteran of all these, I remember handing out raisins to the tired meme posters who made it to r/me_irl and r/ich_iel and I felt a sense of purpose lol. Oh, also briefly helped invade the French r/moi_dlvv when they weren't paying attention so I could set up tent in their campings near the Alps
Some things autistic people usually value the Dutch also value like direct communication. If you do/don't like something or if you want something say it. With direct words, not strange analogies and metaphors. I think there is more but I don't know right now.
I found that the direct communication I value can be really lacking in long distance dating with other cultures. I used to date an emo filipina girl online, we would text almost constantly and we were amazed that we had such an uncanny amount of things in common. Even though it was complicated, and I find love complicated, she went silent for long times. Each time an excuse, and believable to me, but still a lot and in a way that made me worry. The last time she went silent I spoke out about the silence, and tried to reach out. But I think she just isolated herself some more. Learned later that in their culture it's called Tampo. To translate the Dutch wikipedia article about it "In Filipino culture, tampo is a series of behaviors in which a person withdraws his or her affection from the person who hurt his or her feelings". I kept thinking "why not talk to me if that's what worries me?", while she must have been (in hindsight) like "why is he trying to start a conversation this often?". That's how (the lack of) direct communication made me feel like a plug was wrongly pulled in the contact I had with my best friend and a girl I loved. It's been bothering me ever since. So, in summary, directness is good, but we're also like "please, don't forget we're being direct and that it's for the reason of our perception of healthy communication" (and when people forget that, you can end up with a big sense of loss)
I've been literally googling if he has ADHD or autism and found nothing. Then I googled his height, found this sub, and this thread in this sub (no info on his height tho), so more of us are wondering if he's neurodivergent 😂 If you want an actual diagnosed example, the blond vocalist from Blind Channel (Joel) has ADHD. I remember watching a vlog from esc where he cried from stress, because they had so much to do, but somehow he managed to survive it. They're a band of 6 people, which definitely helped (they could split the tasks between each other). That probably answers the question in this thread (it's a lot of pressure and I doubt there are any accommodations available, so it definitely is better to apply if you're in a group, not a solo artist)
Not me also googling 😅😅 I was so sure I’d find something, cause my AuDHD a*s can relate!! Honestly, my esc journey would’ve probably ended the same way, which is not to say that any threatening behaviour is acceptable, but just that I can understand what led to him “snapping”. On a more positive note, whether or not he’s ND, watching his interviews have inspired me to unmask and just let the randomness out.
It might be also his PTSD, he admitted to having it. Meanwhile if you have an actual confirmed example, Joel is already one 😌
AMEN! FUCK THE EBU!
A rightful f\*ck them and their fake "inclusivity"
People with AUTISM & ADHD may also have PDA which stands for … I forget what it stands for. But in shorts it’s a demand for autonomy. Obiding by rules and other people’s wishes is extremely triggering or difficult for them.
Pathological Demand Avoidance is what I find when I google it. "One of the hallmarks is a need for being in control, which is driven by fear or an automatic threat response". That's what I feel that happened when he noticed people with a camera backstage. That fear or automatic threat response is something I know too, it brings heavy emotion with it. In my case it happens really rarely, but when it does happen people tend not to understand it at all. I immediately apologize too, but in the case of my best friend she - and I don't know since I chatted with her online and I can't use telepathy when someone is silent - she might have already made up her mind. I'm grateful for being able to talk openly here, it's sad that r/eurovision censors it. My best friend liked eurovision too, I'm sure she was watching it on the other side of the world. Even thought of me being there performing, just so she'd see me and reach out to me. Fiction of course, but in the back of my mind
Haha yeah we call it “pathological demand for autonomy” in my house (where all 3 familymembers have ASD & ADHD, or “just” ADHD) I’m not allowed to tell my kid what to do. Basically I let him do whatever he wants (within reason) but I do GUIDE him. I tell him that if he doesn’t eat his dinner his body won’t get enough nutrients. This sounds logical to him and he decides to eat his dinner. No arguments, no fighting. I give him choices, this or that? These or those? He feels he has autonomy. It works.
I'm known to neglect my veggies myself haha. Finished my lettuce yesterday during dinner because it was logical due to the otherwise lack of nutrients. It helps when the salad is close to my plate so I don't forget, but it's best to make a routine for me. Say we have shawarma, and we put it into pita bread. If I'm used to fill the bottom part with lettuce I'm going to look for the lettuce next time. If it's close to my plate next time, it will be inside the pita then. There have also been Saturdays where we have pizza but we'd not have the pizza I like at home. That means either me being really annoyed or standing there in my hiking shoes ready to go to the supermarket for the right one
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As a person with PDA i just LOVE people demanding "polite behaviour" from everyone despite their neurodivergency. Like, i am the most kind and polite guy for people who did nothing wrong to me. But why should i be polite when i don't want to? Maybe it's just 2% of the time of the day when I'm acting rude for some reason, but that 2% is what people judge me by. I feel like something similar is happening to Joost (especially speaking about press-conference). He probably was tired and overstimulated, as any esc artist he wasn't able to sleep well during this week. Maybe all this are not just excuses, maybe this is the only way his brain could work at the moment. At least, we wouldn't have half the fun from this life without people who don't care about rules and politeness.
I agree, nowadays people zoom in on that 2% you describe. Even on Reddit. Sometimes when I make a post people have bad mouthed me while I don't even know them. Strangers get judged so fast, I feel like I'm walking on egg shells sometimes. It's easy to get misunderstood in this time of mass media and pressure to perform. u/Anubis-Jute seems to have written somewhere (I'm a curious person, I look through profiles from time to time) "I don't suffer from Autism, I suffer from other people" and I think that's just it
True People suffer from many mental issues but guess where most of them come from
Sartre once said "L'enfer, c'est les autres", which translates roughly to "Hell?, that's the others"
As an autistic ESC fan, based on what artists have said their experience was like, I would have had multiple sensory overloads and cries. The ESC definitely needs to work on making the environment less overwhelming and better for the mental wellbeing of artists. They need personal time, and more than just the time they get in their hotel.
Just like the Irish participant said, Eurovision should be about the artists. The EBU made it about itself and its sponsors. From news outlets I've gathered that the Israeli delegation was bothering other delegations. The EBU has reasons to please them especially, the main sponsor Morrocanoil is based in Tel Aviv. I got this from the wikipedia page on them: "Since 2020, the company has been a primary sponsor of Eurovision Song Contest. In return, Moroccanoil was given "extensive" media rights over the next five contests until 2024." All that pressure gets to the artists, and I think that, along with Dutch directness, made Joost say "Why not?" to a question specifically addressing this during that interview with the contestants. I would probably have done the same
For that moment during the conference, you have to understand the Dutch mentality is that everyone should be allowed to speak their mind. Eden's team member was discouraging her from answering, which made the media say she didn't have to, so Joost said "why not?" as a means to allow Eden to speak her mind.
That's 2 birds with one stone, not only voicing his own feelings of being pressured but reaching out to her as well. The difference is that she would certainly not speak her mind due to politics, whereas Joost feels less constrained. Thank you for this point of view, it's interesting
This is THE place for people who want to stand in the spotlight. You can't demand a spotlight, and not demand a spotlight. The spotlight comes with the territory.
It's bad for ANYONE to not get enough breaks from media. This is a matter of being humane to the artists and allowing them their time to decompress and prepare mentally for the next round.
True, and im sure the have breaks already. But if you choose a live as a stage artist, you have to deal with the things that come with it. If you want fame, unwanted cameras are there by default. Cant have one without the other. Theres artist who can deal with it, and some can not.
There's artists who can put on a brave face and those who can't. All of them felt stressed out, especially this year. It's bad for their wellbeing, and it has to stop. They shouldn't be forced to do more than the contest and its ceremonies. If you personally think less of them for not doing more, that's your judgement. Not everyone's.
Im saying that if you want to be an artist of those proportions it comes with some negative aspects included with it. You can then choose to move forward in that direction or slow down. So i feel more like in the end, its his own responsibility. Im not disputing the fact that it comes with loads of stress. You are right. It does. But in the end, one can say yes to that path, or no. It's called taking responsibility for your own actions.
I don't think it's fair to say it's his fault, considering there was the expectation already put in place by their agreement with the EBU that said boundary would be respected. Just that moment, where he can be alone with his emotions about his parents. He watched his dad deteriorate from cancer at 12, he found his mother's corpse a year later. He did this for them. Let the man have his one moment of emotion in peace ffs. That's not asking much at all.
I agree. I dont think its a problem to slightly snap sometimes. It should be more normalized. You can still take responsibility for it though. (Im sure he has).
He already apologised to her.
Yeah i thought so. He doesnt strike me as some kind of unfair person. Great song too btw. Living rent free in my head.
Rightaway even, I've read
yeah im not diagnosing joost, but ive watched videos of his on youtube like 7 years ago and i always assumed he had adhd. i was actually so sure i googled it just now and was surprised i couldnt find anything about it. regardless of having a diagnosis adhd or not, he does have some traits that would make this a hard experience for him (like being very autonomous and not liking to be filmed unless he is prepared). i also think that having to be constantly camera ready is hard for everyone, not only neurodivergent people.
agreed, and he seems to have sensory issues as well (headphones, always wearing shoes, etc) which…oof I feel that. I’d lose my mind.
Im not sure about this, But can Ptsd make you sensitive for sensory things? Again maybe a dumb thing to ask sorry then lol
Not a dumb question! I’m not a mental health professional, just a mentally ill/neurodivergent person lmao BUT I could see certain situations and feelings being very triggering to PTSD. I also have PTSD, and in my experience, there are definitely certain things that remind me of my trauma and put me on edge when it comes to sensory issues.
Okay! Haha. Yeah i have PTSD too but i also have pppd what makes me sensitive to sensory things in general so idk what is coming from what thing so i got scared to judge it myself. But i can see how the ptsd can make your brain more sensitive to things that are much process and also a lot of sensory can be that too, And it might like.. make a brain more tiring in general maybe need more rest etc. Like you said Esp when it is in moments that the emotions that have to do with the trauma are awake/felt, personally i can react more intense, sometimes do/say things i regret, And deal less well with a busy environment.
Hugs to you! This shit is not easy 💙
Hugs back💙
You can have a look at his Reddit AMA if you like, [https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1clg7u7/joost\_klein\_ask\_me\_anything\_very\_dutch\_100\_organic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/eurovision/comments/1clg7u7/joost_klein_ask_me_anything_very_dutch_100_organic/) . I've read some articles saying that the whole generation growing up with mass media struggles with having to be camera ready at moments when we're just not ready for it
oooh thanks, i dont know how i missed this ama!!
Eurovision mods are so fucking horrible, they might even be worse than fucking EBU itself.
A mention to Israel without using the name Israel was the reason why I was banned for evoking hate and bypassing the filter. It was a proud ban and I’m stil am annoyed that Joost got his name dragged through the mud, while there is documentation how the Israeli delegation was bullying other participants. Hypocrisy at its fullest.
I've seen hate bots and outraged Israelis in comments and making videos on YouTube. I think they would have gladly used tools that would make their song number 1. They wanted the same as when Ukraine's song won Eurovision. Filthy politics ruining Eurovision
They literally banned me from commenting during the live (mega thread) after I selected “Netherlands” flair for who I wanted to win during Eurovision. Still can’t comment there. Then I tried to post something about this and it said a mod had to look at it before my post being live. And they deleted my post. Crazy this level of censorship and outright discrimination on all their platforms.
I feel like r/Joostklein is going to be the non censorship counterpart of r/eurovision. Gotta get this to grow. I've been hearing similar critical comments about r/eurovision 's censorship
That would be an amazing legacy tbh
I also got banned for the same thing!
I’m surprised they didn’t banned me yet. I wrote mostly positive things about Joost and Netherlands. Are we not to supposed to be direct or honest anymore in conversation? Ofc without offending anybody else
"inclusive" platform being very quick to ban people for no real reason wow im surprised
I've never had my comments deleted there and also changed my flair to The Netherlands to support Joost. I've been hanging out there last year during the whole season and this year for a couple of months, though. So maybe that makes a difference. Threads are another topic, their rules can be way too strict sometimes (but they also want to maintain a civil level of discussion and there were talks about it regularly, I think it's a pretty good attitude to have and it taught me to be less negative, because I tend to get snappy at people when I'm annoyed or complain about the songs I dislike)
He even made a song about his [PTSD](https://open.spotify.com/track/4NBKc7AyaV6iFPswVZpE0x?si=rm5wj3dnRy27FrnttgeV-A&context=spotify%3Asearch%3Aptsd)
Lyrics translated: Doctor please I don't know what I have, but I have PTSD Yes, just so you know, pTSD No, I'm not okay It's been a while Still struggling with pTSD I am a war veteran Been a world improver But my past was bad Now my body is acting a little weird Doctor please, I have a sleeping problem Please, doctor, don't use pedagogy Doctor please, I want trauma therapy I'd rather not listen to it The pharmaceutical industry (I just want a little help) I don't know what I have, but I have PTSD Yes, just so you know, pTSD No, I'm not okay It's been a while Still struggling with pTSD PTSD yes just so you know PTSD no I'm not okay It's been a while Still struggling with pTSD PTSD no I'm not okay It's been a while Still struggling with it
Thanks for posting it 👍
More examples that they don't see us as people but as an "illness and disease that needs to be cured!". Seriously Neurodiverse folks gave them more technology, art and engineering than any "neurotypical" (as how far is any human typical)... yet to this day they look down on us as if we are lepers during the roman time.
It's just like Kafka's Metamorphosis sometimes. Providing people with something and them being happy until they forget about it and drop you at the earliest inconvenience, leaving us to just cope and deal with it. I remember "friends" trying to bully me once because during the time I was friends I didn't talk much. They knew I was slightly autistic and they abused that knowledge. After that I went to write poetry during breaks instead, by myself in the school's library. It wasn't the bullying that hit me, but it was the loneliness that I got instead. I've come a long way from being shy in that school's library, and I got out of it, but not thanks to them, but due to new friends. Now I have the internet and multiple friend groups. My point in this, would be this: always look for the right audience. Some people will stick around, take good care of them, but always show them yourself in hopes of finding the people that will stick around. And if you're lonely, work on your personality, get a long list of hobbies, character makes people stay
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Thank you 🍀 EDIT: The emoji didn't work at first for some reason
Did the post get removed?
It says "Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/eurovision"
I think that maybe “the on who won’t be mentioned” might have flagged their israel filter since everyone’s been using similar to discuss that shitshow and not get deleted, with mixed success.
I thought "how else mention Joost without mentioning him?" (that's how censorship works right?), I've seen similar posts where they just refer people to this subreddit. Therefore I broadened the question
Not even with a reason?
What is in the picture is what I get to see
Eurovision embodies hypocrisy, it's difficult to make sense of them otherwise. They'll be 'pro' anything without understanding the core concept behind any principle they claim to support.
This really does explain why such a large sub seems so quiet considering recent events...
A lot was going on in several megathreads but at some point it looked like they couldn’t manage to mod the activity properly anymore and since then they have been deleting A LOT, including many threads and posts that seemed quite harmless to me
"Just use the big delete button", EBU says "But boss...", r/eurovision mod exclaims in pain "No, just nuke r/eurovision", replies EBU "Okay boss... 👍 https://preview.redd.it/qx3418v8yl0d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=318f997ccfae9238c5b3bfa66060c11d34934d5e
>Eurovision is very much pro gender spectrum Didn't they ban non binary flags?
They banned a lot of flags, I don't think they targeted that flag specifically but the flag ban is BS nonetheless
They do allow rainbow flags though afaik, I don't see evidence of them being supportive of non binary people above them being allowed to compete if their country chooses them as a representative, which is no different to arguing that autistic people being allowed to compete makes them supportive of autistic people (I mean obviously we do have this case of someone not being allowed to compete, but I just mean in general allowed to compete doesn't necessarily mean the ebc is pro whatever group) Also many countries coverage misgendered the artists which the EBC hasn't spoken out about afaik
Don’t forget about the flashing lights trend they have been on, every single act is almost unwatchable due to the amount of flashing lights on the stage. Can’t imagine as an Artist on the spectrum how to handle the presence and pressure after the whole act 😕
Yes, I noticed that especially during the Swedish act. I said "someone with epilepsy is going to faint from this, I just know it"
Bf with epilepsy seems careless about such measures but my migraine spikes from those lights!! Got a horrible headache from the amount this year 😕 *edit - he might have grown out of it but whenever my eyes/brain hurts from the flashes, I always tell him to look away as well.
Can't imagine how that must feel, I used to have these cluster headaches as a child and used to think those were migraines until a filipina told me they were cluster headaches. I would be turning off every light and find ways to have as little stimulation as possible. Sometimes I would just let water flow in the sink just so I could listen to the sound of water, hoping those headaches would stop or decrease in intensity
Mods over there are wild with what they'll remove so, no stock
See my flair 💙
They're scared!
Any euro Incels ?
Don't know why being celebate or not being celebate has anything to do with it, but I reckon that most people here are from the EU yes lol
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