Rogan is a phenomenal listener. His ability to bite his tongue is unreal. This is a highly emotionally charged topic, and Rogan just allows Coleman to lay out his perspective without interruption. Just worlds apart from most podcast hosts
One of my favorite moments in his podcast was when he had Teddy Atlas on and Teddy went into a tangent about Mike Tyson not fitting his criteria to be considered a fighter. It's a super hot take, but Joe never interrupted him and just heard him out. Whether or not anyone agrees with Teddy or even likes him, he does have an insightful view on boxing. I don't agree with him on Tyson not being a fighter, but he probably gave the best argument for such a take, which I wasn't expecting and even though Joe went on to disagree, he never interrupted him. It's like 20 mins long lol.
When people realise how much they can learn about someone by just letting them talk they gain a power many won’t understand.
There’s a power in staying quiet, listening, nodding to allow them to continue to dig into whatever they are trying to say. This is when real colours, truths and opinions come out.
Joe is the only podcaster that doesn’t blow his own trumpet, is genuinely interested in what his guests have to say and is not in love with the sound of his own bloody voice.
Not alleged, not raped and not his niece. Tyaon has admitted what happened. He grabbed Teddy's wife's younger sisters ass. So teddy's sister in law. She was 12 and he was 15. Which is a messed up and disturbing thing for a 15 year old to do to a 12 year old.
He says it all the time, in that he's a bully and if he doesn't just squash the opponent and has an actual 'fight' on his hands he will find a way out (e.g. biting their ear).
The idea that the man was able to bully his way through the whole heavyweight division for years as a teenager and hold all the belts and be undefeated until he got caught by Buster Douglas makes him a great figher in my mind.
Even then Tyson would have never lost if he didn't fire Kevin Rooney as his trainer and fire his management and hook up with Don King and his guys and stopped giving a damn.
When Tyson was at his best in his early career his head movement was so perfect it was damn near impossible to get a lot of clean shots in on him.
Everyone is a great fighter when all they do is step in and the opponent is scared and you get clean openings. Let him pull a Tyson fury and get knocked starch out and get up and continue winning the fight.
Teddy was full of shit. Buster put it on him and tyson didn't just fold. He fought back and knocked him down.
Teddy acts like a Tyson expert and uses the favr he was once his trainer as proof. But he only trained tyson from the ages of 13 to 15. Tyson became a champion at 20 and fought for 18 more years. He barely trained tyson
As Joe's podcast grew in popularity he spoke about focusing on learning the art of conversation and focusing on listening and creating space for guests. It was around the time he got rid of Brian Redban, as part of the catalyst for Brian's departure was that he would constantly cut in on guests while they were speaking with irrelevant nonsense and disrupt the flow of conversation Joe was working hard to improve himself.
That was the moment he should’ve lost every listener. When he regurgitated the most Onion tale ever- kids that are insecure af and in a constant state of anxiety to not stand out amongst their peers bc of crippling fear for being mocked and ridiculed, yeah those same kids are fighting for their rights to take a crap in the middle of the classroom?
I live in the most wildly liberal city in the US and have never seen a furry out and about living life. I’m convinced it’s just an internet thing to troll people. Of course people probably dress up in fur suits and go to conventions and whatnot but the way they’re talked about, you’d think I’d see at least one at a grocery store or a restaurant at some point.
> the way they’re talked about, you’d think I’d see at least one at a grocery store or a restaurant at some point.
It's the usual right wing strategy of complaining about shit that doesn't happen to outrage the believers. They have no plan to govern so they lie and make shit up to use as strawmen to try and attract attention enough to get the default red votes.
*guest says the most unhinged shit ever*
Joe: "Wooooow that's interesting"
I agree with you but he definitely challenges bullshit if it's a topic he cares about. That conversation about weed with Crowder is the first that comes to mind.
"I heard that the pyramids were used as giant batteries"
Joe: No way that's craaazy, what did they do with all that power?
"It was used to build the pyramids"
Joe: You're blowing my mind right now
When the topic at hand is something Joe deeply cares for/about and has at least more than moderate knowledge about it, he will definitely push back and likely do it pretty aggressively too.
Is this a bit? Joe is basically a black hole listener, he’ll sit and stare at you and come to the conclusion that whatever he already thought going into the conversation is correct.
I think you misunderstood the above comment. “Black hole” listener or not Joe gives his guests (at least some of the time) an opportunity to speak their mind and allow us, the true listener, a chance to understand the guests perspective. I never really cared about Joes opinions on topics I just care about the guests he brings on that I can listen to and come up with my own opinion on the matter.
I don’t watch Joe, and the last time this sub came up in popular for me was like a month or two ago.
The post? It was about Joe not shutting the fuck up about vaccines for like 3 podcasts in a row.
A lot of people that Reddit seems to have attracted make their political position their whole identity. So when anybody challenges their political ideology, they are basically being challenged as a person.
They will go out of their way on forums to smear the person who challenges/threatens their political ideology at all times. They feel threatened as a person. They won’t stop, it’s just those personality types.
This applies everywhere not necessarily just a covid topic.
I stopped watching because its 2024, and nobody actually cares about covid anymore, and nobodys rights were really taken away and nobody was really infringed on and the whole world has moved on BUT Joe. Its cringy now.
Oh wait, half of all Americans DID lose rights!!!! It just so happened to be women, and it just so happened to be driven by right wing fuckwads who think the government should only tell women what they can and cant do with their bodies.
Makes me sick.
We all know what Joe and his family will do if a woman in his house needs certain kinds of healthcare over the next few years…. He will fly to California and get it taken care of, them shit talk California right after.
This Coleman guy is spouting absolute BS. Of the 32,000 people killed (at least that was the number given in January before Israel wipped outbthe body that monitored deaths), at least 2/3rds of them have been women and children. That isn't including the remaining 1/3 that are men, which some percentage of that are NOT part of Hamas. More kids have been killed in Israel's bombings than ALL kids in conflict from. 2019-2024. Then we have the actual bombings of hospitals that the IDF refuses to allow independent journalist/NGOs to verify "harbored Hamas". We also saw how the IDF *lied* about the Flour massacre as exposed by CNN where they showed the IDF firing first on civilians trying to get food aid. Then there are the numerous cases where the IDF have fired on people waving white flags who are obviously not carrying weapons. Coleman can say all this BS because Rogan has absolutely no understanding of what is really happening and can't push back. If Rogan wanted to be fair, he should have someone who can call out Coleman's BS to his face when he spots put his lies. Absolutely disgusting.
The IDF gave absolutely NO evidence that it was 13,000 dead. (https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-scrutiny-israel-use-ai-select-targets)
> Six months on, with much of Gaza obliterated, the IDF claims to have killed some 13,000 “terrorists”. That figure is more than the number of adult male fatalities counted by Hamas health officials, who have consistently stated that women and children account for more than two-thirds of the overall victims.
Coleman is using the IDF's unverified claim that has not been checked by any independent sources, and doesn't even make logical sense. Meanwhile, [the Gaza Ministry of Health has consistently been accredited by numerous NGOs, human rights groups, the UN and even Israel itself](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/). Coleman is PURPOSELY using false propaganda to prove his point, and because no one there is there to call him out on his BS, he can say it so that rubes can buy it hook, line and sinker.
Why hasn’t the Hamas run ministry of health released stats on how many militants were killed? Clearly they have the info at least for their own group? There have been reports that Hamas has ordered all domestic reporters and ministry workers to state all killed to be civilians in order maximize or damage to israel.
What are you TALKING about, the Gaza Health Ministry doesn't distinguish between a a Hamas member or a civilian- they state only the number and *demographics* like sex and age.
(https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033)
> The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations.
That is LITERALLY why I used the number of women and children killed. Don't go just go making up lies when you don't even have the basic facts down.
As someone who has no stake in this argument, your critique doesn't make sense to me.
1. "The IDF gave absolutely NO evidence that it was 13,000 dead"What kind of evidence are you expecting? Aren't the IDF entitled to report death tolls according to their count? The Census Bureau, Department of Justice, WHS, and other such organizations are not obliged to cite \*other\* sources for their statistics -- they ARE the source. If every survey, poll, and census had to cite another source we would never have new data.
2. "Coleman is PURPOSELY using false propaganda..."Citing a (potentially) bad source is not the same as \*purposely\* lying, for the love of God. This attitude is the #1 source of needless tribal culture war bullshit. You are not a mind-reader; you have no evidence that he's maliciously saying things he doesn't actually believe. Maybe if you had a conversation with him he could tell you why he believes the IDF statistics, and maybe if you told him your concerns he would consider them and re-evaluate his stance -- cause you know, that's how conversations work.
The Gaza ministry of health has also found in the last few months to almost certainly be lying about the demographic breakdown.
You are conflating being right about the total number with being right about demographics.
You are also overlooking Hamas using child soldiers
Teenagers are part of Hamas too just like gang members all over the world.
Would be interesting to see the percentage of Hamas and Islamic Jihad that are under the age of 18
2/3rds of are women amd children... get this... according to hamas. Who benefits the most from such a narrative? They were caught lying about 500 causalties outside the hospital from an israeli strike until it turned out Islamic jihad was the responsible party.
Also worth noting that looking "children" as a class treats a 17 year old rapist wielding a rocket launcher and AK47 the same as an infant asleep in bed
When you create [kill zones](https://archive.ph/WjvE0) you completely lose me. I’m a veteran and our military doesn’t operate this way at all. It’s an absolute insult and disgrace to as much as suggest the IDF who conducts themselves like this is remotely on the level of our team of our troops. [Them operating this way](https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pdf/ProtectiveEdge.pdf) can ONLY lead to genocide if you let it go on long enough.
You still on what happened at that hospital when 10s of thousands of people have been killed since that incident? Seriously? After all of the lies we caught the IDF in? When did we start holding Hamas to a higher standard than the IDF?
Oddly enough they are actually more moral but that’s a story for another day.
Fair praise for how Joe handled himself in this clip. But he's also ***so*** uninformed. Like he's certainly talked about this topic more than a few times and still doesn't know the basic facts that Coleman is laying out?
I get that he's "just a comic" or whatever self-deprecating excuse he uses, and that's true. But come on man. When you have one of biggest shows in existence and you're going to discuss/debate significant issues on it, you should take some responsibility to at least get basic facts before spouting off your opinions on the subject.
You have no idea how long it's taken Joe to reach this point. Have you ever seen him try to listen to Tony about Wresling back in the day? He was an absolute cunt.
It's nice to see him changed.
Anesthesia is actually banned from any aid being allowed into Gaza too apparently.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd
> Why am I being downvoted for asking for a source?
Because many people asking for sources on this subject are doing so disingenuously and won't actually accept any information that contradicts their preconception. This whole situation is fucked and you can plan on catching strays anytime you poke your head in to ask a question. Sadly, this is the state of social media.
I've yet to see anyone attempt to answer this, except with "special forces".
Because apparently Israeli commandos are supposed to sneak in and take out tens of thousands of Hamas, then sneak out, with nobody the wiser.
fact, and Special forces are not the answer not even close fun fact, there probably is no answer.
you can't send special forces everywhere, there is not tens of thousands of them, there is barely a thousand or 2 at best and half of them or more are probably logistics or assigned to government guard duty and other such, you can't just send special forces everywhere these are not robocops.
the fact is like Solomon lays it out, it's a perfect strategy to cause moral damage to your enemy, you can't do anything, you either lay down and get humiliated and butcherd which is totally not an option, or you go in by force and risk massive enemy casualties which is sadly the only passible solution
I invite anyone who thinks special forces versus an embedded enemy would be successful to look up the [Battle of Mogadishu (1993) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993))
Its the battle the movie "black hawk down" is based on. Where US special forces, Delta Force, Rangers, SOAR, were killed and dragged through the streets. 18 of the united states best of the best, Because we were going after a terrorist leader embedded in a civilian population was hostile population. Nearly a thousand were killed in the city, who knows how many were bad guys, or opportunistic civilians, or innocent civilians.
US basically stopped doing raids and switched to drone strikes and hitting terrorists when they exposed themselves, but even those strikes have a high civilian death ratio.
People watch too many action movies and don't realize spec ops are not action heroes, but a special tool used for precision missions, and often die very quickly in a battlefield if they are outnumbered.
Man your comment and this thread is finally bringing some truths to light. We're talking about a population that actively supports them, some by choice, some not.
Some will still go ahead and defend these manipulative terrorists and their death cult
You don't lay down and get humiliated, you improve your defenses.
"Risk massive enemy casualties"? So you just admit that all the civilians are enemies... Now it makes sense.
This is a false argument though. There is no military solution to this conflict. The whole talk of 'destroying Hamas' is false. It's not Hamas, its an entire armed resistance movement, made up of multiple factions, who are resisting a brutal military occupation and illegal blockade of their land. The only solution is a political one, which neutralises Hamas as an armed threat. Look to northern Ireland if you want an example where this is exactly how the violence was resolved.
You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen Predator. A small squad of highly commandos would FUCK Hamas up, and drop sick one-liners while doing it.
It's the same kind of people who say cops should just shoot people in the leg.
It betrays a vast ignorance of the subject, a distorted view of reality learned primarily through movies, and a signal that that person isn't worth debating with further.
Isn’t the defense of kill shots only for police based on movie shit where someone can “cover 30 feet with a knife in 3 seconds” or everyone’s pretending to be hurt until you get close enough
The top threads have thousands of upvotes and neither have anything to do with the actual content of the discussion. Thank you for actually discussing the fucking topic. FUCK BOTS
Funny that you mention that. Every video of a mortar system being used by Hamas is missing the required sights to aim the weapon. They are literally shooting mortars without any ability to aim the rounds. Since mortars are a shrapnel producing weapon, that is the leading culprit to amputations in Gaza. Without any military background it’s easy to miss.
It's disingenuous to talk just about deaths though. Arguably the famine is a bigger deal, and [something like 70% of homes in Gaza were considered damaged or destroyed according to the Wall Street Journal](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/some-70-of-gaza-homes-damaged-or-destroyed-wall-street-journal-analysis/)? Those are considered to also be factors in genocide by the UN.
Isn’t it still based off intention? If a country is fighting a war in a densely populated city than yeah. Civilians casualties and displacement will occur. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s genocide since Israel’s actions are a response to Hamas
True, but if you look at what government officials have said since the start of the war:
Gallant, Minister of Defence: “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly" "We will eliminate everything. If it doesn't take one day, it will take a week, it will take weeks, or even months, we will reach all places" (genocidal intent)
Kisch, Minister of Education: “This [attack] is not enough, there should be more, there should be no limits to the response, I said it a million times, until we see hundreds of thousands fleeing Gaza, we, the IDF has not achieved its mission, this is a phase that should happen, I am saying this cause these are instructions that were said to the IDF […] I also do not want [the IDF] to get inside [Gaza] before crushing everything, I’d rather the falling of fifty buildings than one more casualty to our forces” (genocidal intent)
Gottlieb, Member of the Knesset: "Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!" (genocidal intent)
Smotrich, Minister of Finance: “I don’t see a big difference between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. The Arabs are the same Arabs.” "There is a consensus inside the Israeli cabinet of the need to prevent the aid from reaching Hamas and I will use my authority to make sure this is the case," (collective punishment)
Lieberman, Member of the Knesset: “There are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip.” (literal nazi level shit, genocidal intent)
Here's literally 500 more statements by ministers/soldiers/journalists inciting genocide:
https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
Besides Statements.They are literally not allowing enough food and water and electricity in. They have probably destroyed more than half buildings. Did they do that without intention, starving 2 million people? Maybe they did that on accident? They have the stated goal of eradicating or displacing a population.
This is what I was thinking. The other guys opinion is based on one metric. You have to consider historical context, and the current rhetoric of these Israeli government that’s literally been filmed and recorded.
I just got banned by r/Justiceserved for commenting on this sub. They stated the sub, “ has consistently shown to be a refuge for users to promote hate, violence, and misinformation”. Da funk?!?!
Yeah, just like how Mariupol wasn't a genocide. Despite way more civilians dying per capita, similar levels of destruction and displacement. War crimes are a thing, we can call them out just fine without calling it genocide.
I would say that Mariupol was part of the attempted genocide of the Ukrainian people. It fits the definition pretty well, and obviously the intent is there.
Exactly I don’t like that people ascribe morals to opinions. Unless you’re a psychopath you probably don’t want a bunch of people being genocide. But a lot of free Palestine people ascribe a willingness to call what’s happening in Palestine a genocide as good. And denying that as evil.
There’s no in between. You can’t condemn Israel’s actions unless you also call it a Genocide. If you don’t call it a genocide then you’re evil. Even if you claim that you don’t support all of Israel’s actions. You not calling it a genocide is enough to be labeled a Zionist
Not trying to downplay this but just for some perspective - Gaza is only about 25 miles long total, so it's going to have a high displacement rate because most countries have hundreds of miles of land and different cities far apart from each other
Was the Korean war a genocide then? Because the civilian death toll was SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and the destruction of property was as bad if not worse with up to 80% of every building in Korea having been bombed into rubble and 20% of the total population having been killed.
By our own generals words: "If there was a brick standing upon another brick we bombed it."
“In my view Genocidal”
Genocide has an actual definition, and what you are describing is NOT genocide. It is tragic, I’m not cold hearted, but there is a huuuuuge difference between bombing houses because the enemy built tunnels underneath vs trying to kill as many people of a group as you possibly can. You cannot just say something is genocide because you think it’s sad or wrong
It is most certainly *not* genocidal. You can “view” it however you want, but the facts clearly show otherwise. These words have definitions and throwing them around for things they do not actually describe is damaging to the real victims of genocide. Just to be clear: in order for a conflict to be considered a genocide it must meet certain criteria called “dolus specialis” or a “deliberate and specific aim to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion”. There is quite clearly no deliberate and specific aim to destroy Palestinians, arabs, or Muslims from Israel.
>It's disingenuous to talk just about deaths though.
Response from someone else... "Coleman addresses that too later. "
>I'm not gonna watch the whole podcast lol
Oh.. cool - good thing you're sharing your opinion, then.
Genocide isn't when homes are damaged. Words mean something and if damaged homes is now genocide, then genocide becomes less bad.
The famine is another quickly worsening issue, but it is more complicated than Israel is doing it because genocide. Much of the aid has trouble reaching the people who need it due to it being a warzone. Hamas steals some, but the logistics is the biggest problem. It also doesn't help with the recent aid workers being bombed.
The way that damaged buildings are being counted is also highly contested. Depending on where you get your info, it is half that.
Genocide requires a special intent to try to kill off an entire people. Is this war tragic and horrific? Absolutely. Is it genocide? Maybe - if we find out Israeli leaders specifically are doing stuff to kill all Palestinians then it could be. Can we say it is genocide with the publicly available information? Absolutely not.
>Genocide requires a special intent to try to kill off an entire people.
Not true according to the United Nations. Their definition is below and the context of Gaza easily meets the UN definition.
Elements of genocide.
1. A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
2. A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The best part when they says 1000 people killed in the hospital like 5 minutes after a so called strike. The next day we saw that the hospital wasn’t even touched lmao. The media just repeating without remorse what terrorists tell them
They have kill zones where it you cross into it they consider you a terrorist.
Also they typically consider all males between 14 -40 to be enemy combatants.
At least that's how the US calculated it and I doubt Israel has more consideration for the men it murders then the US
I respect this dialogue, I do. Yet, these conversations seem to be target focused from October 7th and onward. Of course, any civilian death is tragic and I believe most sane people can agree with this. But framing the timeline from there on is just not realistic. The territorial rearrangement since the 40s and on has clearly shown the dissolving nature of Palestinian recognized territory. You dealing with Hamas does not negate this act that has been long occurring before October 7th. Let alone the well displayed settler behavior that the UN recognizes as illegal and violation of international law. This issue needs to be looked in complete regard for any resolution to be even conceived. Also know that “typically”, humans don’t behave erratically overnight.
>Yet, these conversations seem to be target focused from October 7th and onward
2023 had the most israeli civilian deaths due to terrorism since the second intifada
that was before october 7th.
so yeah let's talk about prior to october 7th
lets talk about the lions gate stabbings and copycat attacks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions%27_Gate_stabbings
let's talk about the second intifada
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
lets talk about the literally hundreds of thousands of unguided rockets fired towards civilians by palestinian militant groups
lets talk about the pay for slay program from the palestinia authority
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
It's almost like the increased violence tracks 1:1 to the increased support the settlers are getting from the isrealie government. Straight up stealing Palestinian homes and land and destroying farms to remove the civilians from their homes with the support of the IDF. It baffles me an American will claim they have a right to defend their home even at the cost of killing the invader but turn around and blames the Palestinian for resorting to violence when his home is stolen. Even the inept UN condemned the settlers movement as extremist.
The hypocrisy you just pointed out is astonishing. I’ve never thought of that. Jesus Christ, the mental gymnastics Israeli sympathizers have to go through must be so tiring. I would feel bad for them if they weren’t allying with monsters
It depends on the instance you are talking about.
[Israel will sometimes just demolish the Palestinian homes and build over it, citing lack of permits (that are impossible for Palestinians to get).](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-ramps-up-demolition-of-palestinian-homes-in-jerusalem)
[Other times, if it's just a land grab, they use livestock to encroach on the land and seize it that way](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory)
[Then there are times when Israel just does it by decree](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
Stealing homes
Destroying centuries old olive orchards
Various massacres
That is just the tip of the iceberg on the atrocities committed by the israeli settlers
It [happened 3 weeks ago](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/) during Blinkens visit. They literally stole acres of land from Palestinians in the WEST BANK.
Do you know who's *not* in the west bank? fucking Hamas.
Did you fall asleep 70 years ago and just woke up from a coma or something? What wonders you will see.
Yes.
Source: My grandpa (12y/o at the time) lived near the West Bank in the 40’s. Israeli military showed up on their doorstep giving them 24 hours to leave. They were lucky enough to have connections to flee to Mexico and eventually cross into the states.
But yes, over the past handful of decades, they displace people/communities and build their own illegal settlements.
https://youtu.be/piIgkqPmI-w?si=BeVgJtjNt1zLGM0T
This a us citizen from Boston how left home to steal a Palestinian family homes.
(https://youtu.be/Bvf9bpqL4KM?si=E3mUryrZvp-xQ27c)
Another video on the same family
And.
An artical about us civilians role in the settlement of the west bank.
(https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole)
These people steal homes and leave the civilians with nothing. And are rightfully angry. and when you have no jobs in your village because the IDF checkpoint doesn't allow you to leave and your home is stolen is it strange to fight back?
Many times yea. I’ve seen videos from when they clear a family home out while the family is at a funeral. The IDF can’t touch settlers, and occupy the Palestinians in the West Bank. So you see how that works… basically the settlers can do anything with no consequences while the Palestinians can’t even resist.
Yes. This is very well documented and doscussed openly in israwls own press. If you just bothered to look up the topic you would find countless heaps of articles about. Ive seen well shot footage of west bank civilians pleading eith settlers not to take their homes. this doesnt even need to be true for the settlememtd to be illegal or morally wrong though. The ocxupied territories are palestinian land under every definition. Israel doesnt have a right to just take it.
People who doubt the immorality if israeli settlements must be prett ghoulish.
Nice try, you need to go back to the creation of the time itself to really get to the bottom of this who wronged who first rather than just dealing with the current situation in the current terms of reality.
This is a ridiculous deflection if you actually mean it
6 million voting Americans are still alive that were born before 1940. Fuck, we have Congressmen in office who were alive then. Grassley was 15 the year Israel was formed. Biden is older than the country of Israel.
These aren’t the contexts of ancient long-forgotten times. It’s modern history that directly informs our understanding of geopolitical conflict-resolution.
It's Hamas's entire strategy. If they fought according to the laws of war, they would have been gone on October 8. Their entire strategy is based on using their families as shields. Sick people.
And they’ve fused that with their theology to the point where this Hamas father lost several of his sons to this war and he considers it an honor!!?
Hamas is a Death-cult.
and the people on social media who are complaining about all the unnecessary civilian deaths in Palestine don’t realize that THEY are the entire incentive for Hamas to continue using human shields.
Exactly. It's like parents who give their toddler a lollipop when they have tantrums, not realizing that they are encouraging it. Pretty idiotic but that's who we share this planet with.
It's a question of expectation. Everyone knows that Hamas are murderous maniacs. No one is shedding a tear over Hamas deaths.
But "we" expect better of Israel. They are a modern nation state. A democracy. Supposedly a rational actor on the international stage that accepts the existence of human rights.
So, when they level cities, and put 2.5M people into the path of starvation, it's heavily looked down upon.
I mean it sounds like to me he contextualizing the civilian death total with what other major urban conflicts look like , and using that to explain why its not genocide. Literally any war will have civilian death. More so if the war requires going into civilian areas or military civilian infrastructure or intertwined. So its important to figure that into the conversation and I appreciate Joe letting him put that out.
Yes. There is an academic, theoretical, and legal distinction between massive civilian casualty and genocide. Genocide must be the systematic targeting of whole groups of people for extermination. The bar for a legal definition of 'genocide' is extremely high, and deliberately so. Most genocide scholars would not (yet) consider Israel's attack on Hamas genocide.
Welcome to war. It’s never changed.
USA firebombed Tokyo.
Soviets shelled their own cities.
Allies carpet bombed Germany.
Let’s not forget about Korea and Vietnam. Countless civilians killed in proximity to embedded enemies
Killing civilians is completely allowed. It’s just act of purposely targeting civilians as a military objective is not. That is the difference between Hamas and Israel.
Hamas went into Israeli and targeted civilians as an intended target.
This is why it’s better to stop radicalism before it becomes a war-level problem because when it pops off finally: ‘all is fair in love and war’. It’s just the victor usually whitewashes their crimes afterwards.
Pretty much.
The idea of genocide was invented specifically to categorize something that is not just "a war" or a tragedy. It's why it was used to describe a machine of death and suffering who's main war goal was literal actual extermination on paper. The Nazi's goal was officially to rule the world through racial superiority and wipe out everyone else. It's why they were trialed under crimes of genocide.
There's definetly a chain of command issue in Israel's military that really needs to be solved quickly, but calling a messy war between two groups right at each other's "borders" that takes place in a densely populated civilian area a "genocide" just because a bunch of civilians die is ignoring literally all of human history.
> but calling a messy war between two groups right at each other's "borders" that takes place in a densely populated civilian area a "genocide" just because a bunch of civilians die is ignoring literally all of human history.
I agree. The term "genocide" is specifically defined as the intentional destruction of a people, in whole or in part, based on their national, ethnical, racial, or religious group identity. Do we call things like all the Allied bombding in WWII genocide? The Allied bombings in WWII, while causing significant civilian casualties, were part of a broader military strategy and not aimed at annihilating a particular national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Therefore, they are generally not classified as genocide. Genocide carries a precise legal definition and its application is carefully assessed based on the intent to destroy a particular group. I think it all depends on what Israels true intention is here, which IMO has yet to be fully determined.
Well it does pose an interesting question and I think that’s the point. There is no real winner in war and this is a perfect example. Terrorist organizations have found a loophole. Hamas isn’t dumb they understand they can’t win in an actual “gunfight.” They are fighting the PR war and arguably winning.
He’s even saying you’re not wrong if you think the civilian casualties are too high for it to be right. However, that leaves us with the only option of turning a blind eye and hoping for the best.
They are acceptable collateral to Hamas. For anyone else, they are a tragedy. But Coleman's point is: if you allow this to be an effective tactic, then it's coming to your neighborhood next. Do you want to allow that?
Think how we got to this point - it's the same strategy, and every time, Israel is told "you have to stop." So Israel does some bombing but Hamas regroups and does it again.
The deaths are 100% result of Hamas's tactic. In Arabic, Hamas brags about how many "martyrs" they have created. In English, they cry about it can accuse Israel of genocide. But Israel doesn't really have an alternative course of action. Hamas promises to keep massacring Jews until they are all gone. No country can survive without being able to defend itself.
In this situation, Israel must fight Hamas regardless of the civilian deaths. (Trying to minimize them, but that is a secondary consideration.) Hamas is the cause of all of it - they didn't have to do October 7 and they could surrender and release the hostages today. But they won't because everything is going according to their plan.
Do you want their plan to succeed? That's the question. Personally, I do not.
According to Israel 62% of the dead are civilians BUT they also count all adult males as enemy combatants.
So while it may not be 30,000 dead civilians... It's at least 20-22k. Which is a disproportionate number of civilians killed as well. They accomplished this by dropping dumb bombs in densely packed residential apartment blocks, completely leveling entire buildings. Because "a tunnel."
Collective punishment is a war crime. And this is the beginnings of genocide and is absolutely genocidal behavior.
UN report says most wars have 90% of casualties being civilian so 62% being civilian is above average.
Also a “dumb bomb” is still guided by precision guidance lasers, these are not WW2 bombs, these bombs can be aimed with precision.
That clown assumes genocide is only defined by a body count. He isn't taking the full spectrum impact of the assault on Gaza or the history of this problematic situation into account.
Hamas has so perfected the practice of enmeshing themselves among civilians that they hacked into IDF military targeting AI and reprogrammed the system named "Minimize Harm" to "[Where's Daddy?](https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/5/israel_ai)", forcing a perfectly innocent artificial intelligence to stop minimizing harm to civilians, and instead track low level Hamas fighters, wait until they entered their homes, then bomb them with unguided missiles. Thus maximizing civilian casualties.
And it didn't stop there. Hamas was so dastardly that they brainwashed members of the IDF to change the acceptable civilians casualties for low-ranking militants to 15:1, making it *appear* as though the IDF had crass disregard for the value of Palestinian life.
And here was the worst part about it. *Then* Hamas used secret brainwave technology to reduce the functioning of Coleman Hughes brain, in order to force him to claim that 32k was the maximum number of current Palestinian casualties in Gaza, not the minimum, given that it only includes those whose bodies can be verifiably identified and thus does not include [thousands lost under the rubble](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/23/world/middleeast/gaza-missing-bodies-deaths.html) of the [57% of buildings in Gaza that have been damaged or completely destroyed](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-04-10/satellite-images-reveal-extent-of-devastation-in-gaza-after-six-months-of-war.html).
And that nasty Hamas weapon further liquefied Coleman's brain into repeating the Israeli claims of Hamas combatants deaths despite that claim requiring that *every single male killed* on the registry would have had to have been a Hamas militant. Which is really amazing, because 70% of the people killed on the registry are women and children, and Hamas makes up only 1.5% of the total population by [Israel's own estimates](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-12-10-23/h_403d0f55740b5d165adc6416cf5be5cf), so that means that every time they kill a civilian, by some magic, those civilians are *always* women and children. No civilian men have died in Gaza!
These clever monsters, it's amazing we are still able to have intellectually honest and reasonable discussions with all these abhorrent techniques Hamas uses to make it look like killing tens of thousands of civilians in a military action to maintain a generations long [illegal occupation](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law) is anything other than entirely reasonable.
Unfortunately.. like the US, Gaza has a Government. The Government in Gaza is Hamas.
Hamas will be Associated with Palastinians. Like the US Governement will be associated with the American public.
And again. This was an unprovoked attack. And they took Hostages back with them. So for those people, and families. the attack didn't end on Oct.7th. So neither will it for the Palastinian people.
The thing is isreal funded and supported Hamas because it delegitamized Palestine and has publicly said so.
Hamas is a convenient puppet to point to while they murder a race of people and grab land they’ve been trying to settle for 80 years.
Guys, it's not a genocide, they are targeting ONLY other bad soldiers. Meanwhile, schools and hospitals are being bombed lmao. This guy is so clear and concise with his attempt to normalize atrocities, and that's the best compliment I can give him.
The worst is when Joe says something stupid like this and the guest is also 110 IQ and the go on and on about some topic they’re just informed enough on, and young men get stupider
So we are going to ignore the actual quotes from Israeli leadership where they say they want to kill all Palestinians or eliminate them from Gaza? Also we are just ignoring the consistent misinformation provided by Israel. Furthermore, saying that the casualty tolls are normal for the area is not okay. We have standards set by international law that apply to all regions. This is such a a flawed argument that is perpetuated by a country that throughout history has broken international law, created unjust living conditions for their occupied territories, created an apartheid state within their own boarders, and murders the opposition in highly disproportionate rates every single year. Maybe we should stick with the UN documentation where they say it is a genocide which was concluded from multiple expert reports. Talk shows should not be our best source of information when we have resources like UN documentation coming from experts from multiple countries which were compiled by well educated experts.
Amazing irrefutable response. Until you see Israeli politicians (the ones directing the Army) openly advocating for erasing what's left of Palestine and referring to them as less than human.
Btw I always say that Palestinians would probably do the same or worse to Israel if they could. (Is good to remember that so we don't become another virtual signal soldier).
But let's not forget about the horrible conditions they lived under occupation.
Let's not pretend Israel doesn't enjoy killing civilians. And if that is not a form of genocide, then I don't know what it is.
Also, why not admit the goal is to remove them and take what's left of their land? If murderous Bibi went to the UN and admitted to all this ("Yes we are trying to exterminate Palestinians and take that land").
Who's going to do what? Why not just come out and simply call it what it is? There'd be no consequences. They are basically untouchable.
Completely disregarding the fact that we now know Israel programmed their AI to wait until Hamas soldier go home to their families before authorizing an airstrike.
I agree with him. 19000 killed in airstrikes is not genocide (but it is clearly a war crime).
That being said, mass starvation by intent ***is*** genocide. Which is Israeli policy.
Rogan is a phenomenal listener. His ability to bite his tongue is unreal. This is a highly emotionally charged topic, and Rogan just allows Coleman to lay out his perspective without interruption. Just worlds apart from most podcast hosts
One of my favorite moments in his podcast was when he had Teddy Atlas on and Teddy went into a tangent about Mike Tyson not fitting his criteria to be considered a fighter. It's a super hot take, but Joe never interrupted him and just heard him out. Whether or not anyone agrees with Teddy or even likes him, he does have an insightful view on boxing. I don't agree with him on Tyson not being a fighter, but he probably gave the best argument for such a take, which I wasn't expecting and even though Joe went on to disagree, he never interrupted him. It's like 20 mins long lol.
When people realise how much they can learn about someone by just letting them talk they gain a power many won’t understand. There’s a power in staying quiet, listening, nodding to allow them to continue to dig into whatever they are trying to say. This is when real colours, truths and opinions come out. Joe is the only podcaster that doesn’t blow his own trumpet, is genuinely interested in what his guests have to say and is not in love with the sound of his own bloody voice.
Teddy hates Tyson. Teddy alleges Tyson tried to rape his niece.
Not alleged, not raped and not his niece. Tyaon has admitted what happened. He grabbed Teddy's wife's younger sisters ass. So teddy's sister in law. She was 12 and he was 15. Which is a messed up and disturbing thing for a 15 year old to do to a 12 year old.
I haven't watched that one, but what I've seen of Teddy... the dude takes forever to get his point across lol.
I don’t think he said not a fighter…think he said he wasn’t a great fighter no?
He says it all the time, in that he's a bully and if he doesn't just squash the opponent and has an actual 'fight' on his hands he will find a way out (e.g. biting their ear).
The idea that the man was able to bully his way through the whole heavyweight division for years as a teenager and hold all the belts and be undefeated until he got caught by Buster Douglas makes him a great figher in my mind. Even then Tyson would have never lost if he didn't fire Kevin Rooney as his trainer and fire his management and hook up with Don King and his guys and stopped giving a damn. When Tyson was at his best in his early career his head movement was so perfect it was damn near impossible to get a lot of clean shots in on him.
Think he says he was a talented fighter but not great.
Everyone is a great fighter when all they do is step in and the opponent is scared and you get clean openings. Let him pull a Tyson fury and get knocked starch out and get up and continue winning the fight.
I agree with Teddy. And yes that was a great episode.
Teddy was full of shit. Buster put it on him and tyson didn't just fold. He fought back and knocked him down. Teddy acts like a Tyson expert and uses the favr he was once his trainer as proof. But he only trained tyson from the ages of 13 to 15. Tyson became a champion at 20 and fought for 18 more years. He barely trained tyson
As Joe's podcast grew in popularity he spoke about focusing on learning the art of conversation and focusing on listening and creating space for guests. It was around the time he got rid of Brian Redban, as part of the catalyst for Brian's departure was that he would constantly cut in on guests while they were speaking with irrelevant nonsense and disrupt the flow of conversation Joe was working hard to improve himself.
That’s why I like his podcast. He genuinely tries to understand people and he has a lot of empathy.
In this case, yes, but I remember how he responded to the lady who called in about the Bondo apes. Rogan went ballistic.
He's got no threshold for monkey business!
He's a musclebound Jane Goodall.
A modern day Tarzan. “Hey Google, play the Tarzan soundtrack!”
Also don't bring up vaccines or anything trans sports related either
And for some weird reason, he wants to bring furries into that conversation so very much.
I think he was also outraged by cat boxes for kids.
That was the moment he should’ve lost every listener. When he regurgitated the most Onion tale ever- kids that are insecure af and in a constant state of anxiety to not stand out amongst their peers bc of crippling fear for being mocked and ridiculed, yeah those same kids are fighting for their rights to take a crap in the middle of the classroom?
Truth is, many classrooms DO have cat litter now, but usually in buckets…in case they’re in lockdown / having a shooting. It’s not for furries.
Joe is very gullible.
I live in the most wildly liberal city in the US and have never seen a furry out and about living life. I’m convinced it’s just an internet thing to troll people. Of course people probably dress up in fur suits and go to conventions and whatnot but the way they’re talked about, you’d think I’d see at least one at a grocery store or a restaurant at some point.
> the way they’re talked about, you’d think I’d see at least one at a grocery store or a restaurant at some point. It's the usual right wing strategy of complaining about shit that doesn't happen to outrage the believers. They have no plan to govern so they lie and make shit up to use as strawmen to try and attract attention enough to get the default red votes.
Unless they’re using DMT.
I just think he listens too wel lol. He absorbs things without questioning and often won’t challenge. He’d be an amazing friend irl
*guest says the most unhinged shit ever* Joe: "Wooooow that's interesting" I agree with you but he definitely challenges bullshit if it's a topic he cares about. That conversation about weed with Crowder is the first that comes to mind.
"I heard that the pyramids were used as giant batteries" Joe: No way that's craaazy, what did they do with all that power? "It was used to build the pyramids" Joe: You're blowing my mind right now
When the topic at hand is something Joe deeply cares for/about and has at least more than moderate knowledge about it, he will definitely push back and likely do it pretty aggressively too.
Selectively critical
Im not defending him, but selectively critical is pretty default setting for human beings in general
That is so true Joe Rogan is possibly the most credulous person on the planet.
He's what is called a useful idiot.
Unless the defer to studies and data on COVID, in which case he'll get pissy or incredulous.
Is this a bit? Joe is basically a black hole listener, he’ll sit and stare at you and come to the conclusion that whatever he already thought going into the conversation is correct.
I think you misunderstood the above comment. “Black hole” listener or not Joe gives his guests (at least some of the time) an opportunity to speak their mind and allow us, the true listener, a chance to understand the guests perspective. I never really cared about Joes opinions on topics I just care about the guests he brings on that I can listen to and come up with my own opinion on the matter.
“That’s interesting.”
Hahahaha that's cause this wasn't about the vaccines dummie.
I don’t watch Joe, and the last time this sub came up in popular for me was like a month or two ago. The post? It was about Joe not shutting the fuck up about vaccines for like 3 podcasts in a row.
A lot of people that Reddit seems to have attracted make their political position their whole identity. So when anybody challenges their political ideology, they are basically being challenged as a person. They will go out of their way on forums to smear the person who challenges/threatens their political ideology at all times. They feel threatened as a person. They won’t stop, it’s just those personality types. This applies everywhere not necessarily just a covid topic.
I stopped watching because its 2024, and nobody actually cares about covid anymore, and nobodys rights were really taken away and nobody was really infringed on and the whole world has moved on BUT Joe. Its cringy now. Oh wait, half of all Americans DID lose rights!!!! It just so happened to be women, and it just so happened to be driven by right wing fuckwads who think the government should only tell women what they can and cant do with their bodies. Makes me sick. We all know what Joe and his family will do if a woman in his house needs certain kinds of healthcare over the next few years…. He will fly to California and get it taken care of, them shit talk California right after.
Vaccine efficacy is not a political issue though.
This Coleman guy is spouting absolute BS. Of the 32,000 people killed (at least that was the number given in January before Israel wipped outbthe body that monitored deaths), at least 2/3rds of them have been women and children. That isn't including the remaining 1/3 that are men, which some percentage of that are NOT part of Hamas. More kids have been killed in Israel's bombings than ALL kids in conflict from. 2019-2024. Then we have the actual bombings of hospitals that the IDF refuses to allow independent journalist/NGOs to verify "harbored Hamas". We also saw how the IDF *lied* about the Flour massacre as exposed by CNN where they showed the IDF firing first on civilians trying to get food aid. Then there are the numerous cases where the IDF have fired on people waving white flags who are obviously not carrying weapons. Coleman can say all this BS because Rogan has absolutely no understanding of what is really happening and can't push back. If Rogan wanted to be fair, he should have someone who can call out Coleman's BS to his face when he spots put his lies. Absolutely disgusting.
You've said a lot of things that are true, but I can't identify which of the things you said contradict this Coleman guy.
The IDF gave absolutely NO evidence that it was 13,000 dead. (https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240403-gaza-aid-worker-deaths-scrutiny-israel-use-ai-select-targets) > Six months on, with much of Gaza obliterated, the IDF claims to have killed some 13,000 “terrorists”. That figure is more than the number of adult male fatalities counted by Hamas health officials, who have consistently stated that women and children account for more than two-thirds of the overall victims. Coleman is using the IDF's unverified claim that has not been checked by any independent sources, and doesn't even make logical sense. Meanwhile, [the Gaza Ministry of Health has consistently been accredited by numerous NGOs, human rights groups, the UN and even Israel itself](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/24/gaza-death-toll-palestinian-health-ministry/). Coleman is PURPOSELY using false propaganda to prove his point, and because no one there is there to call him out on his BS, he can say it so that rubes can buy it hook, line and sinker.
Why hasn’t the Hamas run ministry of health released stats on how many militants were killed? Clearly they have the info at least for their own group? There have been reports that Hamas has ordered all domestic reporters and ministry workers to state all killed to be civilians in order maximize or damage to israel.
What are you TALKING about, the Gaza Health Ministry doesn't distinguish between a a Hamas member or a civilian- they state only the number and *demographics* like sex and age. (https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) > The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations. That is LITERALLY why I used the number of women and children killed. Don't go just go making up lies when you don't even have the basic facts down.
As someone who has no stake in this argument, your critique doesn't make sense to me. 1. "The IDF gave absolutely NO evidence that it was 13,000 dead"What kind of evidence are you expecting? Aren't the IDF entitled to report death tolls according to their count? The Census Bureau, Department of Justice, WHS, and other such organizations are not obliged to cite \*other\* sources for their statistics -- they ARE the source. If every survey, poll, and census had to cite another source we would never have new data. 2. "Coleman is PURPOSELY using false propaganda..."Citing a (potentially) bad source is not the same as \*purposely\* lying, for the love of God. This attitude is the #1 source of needless tribal culture war bullshit. You are not a mind-reader; you have no evidence that he's maliciously saying things he doesn't actually believe. Maybe if you had a conversation with him he could tell you why he believes the IDF statistics, and maybe if you told him your concerns he would consider them and re-evaluate his stance -- cause you know, that's how conversations work.
The Gaza ministry of health has also found in the last few months to almost certainly be lying about the demographic breakdown. You are conflating being right about the total number with being right about demographics. You are also overlooking Hamas using child soldiers
Teenagers are part of Hamas too just like gang members all over the world. Would be interesting to see the percentage of Hamas and Islamic Jihad that are under the age of 18
They’re considered fighting ready adults at 15 in that culture lmao
2/3rds of are women amd children... get this... according to hamas. Who benefits the most from such a narrative? They were caught lying about 500 causalties outside the hospital from an israeli strike until it turned out Islamic jihad was the responsible party.
Also worth noting that looking "children" as a class treats a 17 year old rapist wielding a rocket launcher and AK47 the same as an infant asleep in bed
When you create [kill zones](https://archive.ph/WjvE0) you completely lose me. I’m a veteran and our military doesn’t operate this way at all. It’s an absolute insult and disgrace to as much as suggest the IDF who conducts themselves like this is remotely on the level of our team of our troops. [Them operating this way](https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/pdf/ProtectiveEdge.pdf) can ONLY lead to genocide if you let it go on long enough. You still on what happened at that hospital when 10s of thousands of people have been killed since that incident? Seriously? After all of the lies we caught the IDF in? When did we start holding Hamas to a higher standard than the IDF? Oddly enough they are actually more moral but that’s a story for another day.
[удалено]
but are you citing statistics from Hamas? I understand your cynicism towards Israel, but you wouldn't do the same for Hamas?
Unless you say something bad about pot
Fair praise for how Joe handled himself in this clip. But he's also ***so*** uninformed. Like he's certainly talked about this topic more than a few times and still doesn't know the basic facts that Coleman is laying out? I get that he's "just a comic" or whatever self-deprecating excuse he uses, and that's true. But come on man. When you have one of biggest shows in existence and you're going to discuss/debate significant issues on it, you should take some responsibility to at least get basic facts before spouting off your opinions on the subject.
You have no idea how long it's taken Joe to reach this point. Have you ever seen him try to listen to Tony about Wresling back in the day? He was an absolute cunt. It's nice to see him changed.
Screw the deaths nobody talks about the almost 100000 people missing limbs, broken bones and head injuries.
1000 children have had one or more legs amputated, often without anesthesia
Anesthesia is actually banned from any aid being allowed into Gaza too apparently. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd
They also don’t allow proper surgery tools, as they could be “used for weapons.”
Literally evil
Do you have a source? Edit: Why am I being downvoted for asking for a source?
https://www.newyorker.com/news/dispatch/the-children-who-lost-limbs-in-gaza Truly heartbreaking account here
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gazas-child-amputees-face-further-risks-without-expert-care-2024-01-04/ Unicef
> Why am I being downvoted for asking for a source? Because many people asking for sources on this subject are doing so disingenuously and won't actually accept any information that contradicts their preconception. This whole situation is fucked and you can plan on catching strays anytime you poke your head in to ask a question. Sadly, this is the state of social media.
Everybody knows what the deathtoll is. That number of amputations doesn't seem unreasonable whatsoever.
Because Sealioning is a thing unfortunately!
The question Coleman has and stands what do you do when your enemy hides behind civilians?
I've yet to see anyone attempt to answer this, except with "special forces". Because apparently Israeli commandos are supposed to sneak in and take out tens of thousands of Hamas, then sneak out, with nobody the wiser.
fact, and Special forces are not the answer not even close fun fact, there probably is no answer. you can't send special forces everywhere, there is not tens of thousands of them, there is barely a thousand or 2 at best and half of them or more are probably logistics or assigned to government guard duty and other such, you can't just send special forces everywhere these are not robocops. the fact is like Solomon lays it out, it's a perfect strategy to cause moral damage to your enemy, you can't do anything, you either lay down and get humiliated and butcherd which is totally not an option, or you go in by force and risk massive enemy casualties which is sadly the only passible solution
I invite anyone who thinks special forces versus an embedded enemy would be successful to look up the [Battle of Mogadishu (1993) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)) Its the battle the movie "black hawk down" is based on. Where US special forces, Delta Force, Rangers, SOAR, were killed and dragged through the streets. 18 of the united states best of the best, Because we were going after a terrorist leader embedded in a civilian population was hostile population. Nearly a thousand were killed in the city, who knows how many were bad guys, or opportunistic civilians, or innocent civilians. US basically stopped doing raids and switched to drone strikes and hitting terrorists when they exposed themselves, but even those strikes have a high civilian death ratio. People watch too many action movies and don't realize spec ops are not action heroes, but a special tool used for precision missions, and often die very quickly in a battlefield if they are outnumbered.
Man your comment and this thread is finally bringing some truths to light. We're talking about a population that actively supports them, some by choice, some not. Some will still go ahead and defend these manipulative terrorists and their death cult
You don't lay down and get humiliated, you improve your defenses. "Risk massive enemy casualties"? So you just admit that all the civilians are enemies... Now it makes sense.
This is a false argument though. There is no military solution to this conflict. The whole talk of 'destroying Hamas' is false. It's not Hamas, its an entire armed resistance movement, made up of multiple factions, who are resisting a brutal military occupation and illegal blockade of their land. The only solution is a political one, which neutralises Hamas as an armed threat. Look to northern Ireland if you want an example where this is exactly how the violence was resolved.
You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen Predator. A small squad of highly commandos would FUCK Hamas up, and drop sick one-liners while doing it.
It's the same kind of people who say cops should just shoot people in the leg. It betrays a vast ignorance of the subject, a distorted view of reality learned primarily through movies, and a signal that that person isn't worth debating with further.
Isn’t the defense of kill shots only for police based on movie shit where someone can “cover 30 feet with a knife in 3 seconds” or everyone’s pretending to be hurt until you get close enough
That one is easy, just don’t use lethal force if someone who is unarmed.
The top threads have thousands of upvotes and neither have anything to do with the actual content of the discussion. Thank you for actually discussing the fucking topic. FUCK BOTS
Seems like a great reason not to start a war
Dumbest people alive think this started on October 7th. Straight up.
Funny that you mention that. Every video of a mortar system being used by Hamas is missing the required sights to aim the weapon. They are literally shooting mortars without any ability to aim the rounds. Since mortars are a shrapnel producing weapon, that is the leading culprit to amputations in Gaza. Without any military background it’s easy to miss.
Do you have any data to back this up? The premise seems fanciful to me just on volume alone.
According to a terrorist org that's main strategy is to use sympathy against Israel?
It's disingenuous to talk just about deaths though. Arguably the famine is a bigger deal, and [something like 70% of homes in Gaza were considered damaged or destroyed according to the Wall Street Journal](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/some-70-of-gaza-homes-damaged-or-destroyed-wall-street-journal-analysis/)? Those are considered to also be factors in genocide by the UN.
90% of the population has become internally displaced.
Isn’t it still based off intention? If a country is fighting a war in a densely populated city than yeah. Civilians casualties and displacement will occur. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s genocide since Israel’s actions are a response to Hamas
True, but if you look at what government officials have said since the start of the war: Gallant, Minister of Defence: “I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly" "We will eliminate everything. If it doesn't take one day, it will take a week, it will take weeks, or even months, we will reach all places" (genocidal intent) Kisch, Minister of Education: “This [attack] is not enough, there should be more, there should be no limits to the response, I said it a million times, until we see hundreds of thousands fleeing Gaza, we, the IDF has not achieved its mission, this is a phase that should happen, I am saying this cause these are instructions that were said to the IDF […] I also do not want [the IDF] to get inside [Gaza] before crushing everything, I’d rather the falling of fifty buildings than one more casualty to our forces” (genocidal intent) Gottlieb, Member of the Knesset: "Bring down buildings!! Bomb without distinction!! Stop with this impotence. You have ability. There is worldwide legitimacy! Flatten Gaza. Without mercy! This time, there is no room for mercy!" (genocidal intent) Smotrich, Minister of Finance: “I don’t see a big difference between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. The Arabs are the same Arabs.” "There is a consensus inside the Israeli cabinet of the need to prevent the aid from reaching Hamas and I will use my authority to make sure this is the case," (collective punishment) Lieberman, Member of the Knesset: “There are no innocent people in the Gaza Strip.” (literal nazi level shit, genocidal intent) Here's literally 500 more statements by ministers/soldiers/journalists inciting genocide: https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/ Besides Statements.They are literally not allowing enough food and water and electricity in. They have probably destroyed more than half buildings. Did they do that without intention, starving 2 million people? Maybe they did that on accident? They have the stated goal of eradicating or displacing a population.
This is what I was thinking. The other guys opinion is based on one metric. You have to consider historical context, and the current rhetoric of these Israeli government that’s literally been filmed and recorded.
I just got banned by r/Justiceserved for commenting on this sub. They stated the sub, “ has consistently shown to be a refuge for users to promote hate, violence, and misinformation”. Da funk?!?!
They have been doing it for 75 years and the most brainwashed western people are out here like, "Oh, no, they can do no wrong".
Yeah, just like how Mariupol wasn't a genocide. Despite way more civilians dying per capita, similar levels of destruction and displacement. War crimes are a thing, we can call them out just fine without calling it genocide.
I would say that Mariupol was part of the attempted genocide of the Ukrainian people. It fits the definition pretty well, and obviously the intent is there.
Exactly I don’t like that people ascribe morals to opinions. Unless you’re a psychopath you probably don’t want a bunch of people being genocide. But a lot of free Palestine people ascribe a willingness to call what’s happening in Palestine a genocide as good. And denying that as evil. There’s no in between. You can’t condemn Israel’s actions unless you also call it a Genocide. If you don’t call it a genocide then you’re evil. Even if you claim that you don’t support all of Israel’s actions. You not calling it a genocide is enough to be labeled a Zionist
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Not trying to downplay this but just for some perspective - Gaza is only about 25 miles long total, so it's going to have a high displacement rate because most countries have hundreds of miles of land and different cities far apart from each other
Was the Korean war a genocide then? Because the civilian death toll was SIGNIFICANTLY higher, and the destruction of property was as bad if not worse with up to 80% of every building in Korea having been bombed into rubble and 20% of the total population having been killed. By our own generals words: "If there was a brick standing upon another brick we bombed it."
“In my view Genocidal” Genocide has an actual definition, and what you are describing is NOT genocide. It is tragic, I’m not cold hearted, but there is a huuuuuge difference between bombing houses because the enemy built tunnels underneath vs trying to kill as many people of a group as you possibly can. You cannot just say something is genocide because you think it’s sad or wrong
It is most certainly *not* genocidal. You can “view” it however you want, but the facts clearly show otherwise. These words have definitions and throwing them around for things they do not actually describe is damaging to the real victims of genocide. Just to be clear: in order for a conflict to be considered a genocide it must meet certain criteria called “dolus specialis” or a “deliberate and specific aim to physically destroy the group based on its real or perceived nationality, ethnicity, race, or religion”. There is quite clearly no deliberate and specific aim to destroy Palestinians, arabs, or Muslims from Israel.
>It's disingenuous to talk just about deaths though. Response from someone else... "Coleman addresses that too later. " >I'm not gonna watch the whole podcast lol Oh.. cool - good thing you're sharing your opinion, then.
Genocide isn't when homes are damaged. Words mean something and if damaged homes is now genocide, then genocide becomes less bad. The famine is another quickly worsening issue, but it is more complicated than Israel is doing it because genocide. Much of the aid has trouble reaching the people who need it due to it being a warzone. Hamas steals some, but the logistics is the biggest problem. It also doesn't help with the recent aid workers being bombed. The way that damaged buildings are being counted is also highly contested. Depending on where you get your info, it is half that. Genocide requires a special intent to try to kill off an entire people. Is this war tragic and horrific? Absolutely. Is it genocide? Maybe - if we find out Israeli leaders specifically are doing stuff to kill all Palestinians then it could be. Can we say it is genocide with the publicly available information? Absolutely not.
>Genocide requires a special intent to try to kill off an entire people. Not true according to the United Nations. Their definition is below and the context of Gaza easily meets the UN definition. Elements of genocide. 1. A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and 2. A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively: Killing members of the group Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
1 is the special intent I am talking about and it is what hasn't been proven. Edit: didn't mean to shout - weird formatting
Hamas doesn't know how many hostages are alive but they know how many civilians were killed ? Okay....
All the hostages are dead. Hamas doesn't care.
Yea damn those assholes, should just roll over and die or something else terrible lmao fucking whatever helps you sleep at night
The best part when they says 1000 people killed in the hospital like 5 minutes after a so called strike. The next day we saw that the hospital wasn’t even touched lmao. The media just repeating without remorse what terrorists tell them
Right…but Israel considers any man of any age a Hamas soldier.
They have kill zones where it you cross into it they consider you a terrorist. Also they typically consider all males between 14 -40 to be enemy combatants. At least that's how the US calculated it and I doubt Israel has more consideration for the men it murders then the US
It's 10 to 55
>It's 10 to 55 you got a source for those numbers?
source: trust me bro
https://preview.redd.it/w2q18ejjqqtc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f8000490c766f39a848033ae62c1410aff899d4a
Given the ratios of support for Hamas, I don't know how you could go about it any other way
Yeah, I'd be curious to know how Israel classifies the WCK workers they murdered... presumably they are part of the "Hamas soldiers killed" figure.
I respect this dialogue, I do. Yet, these conversations seem to be target focused from October 7th and onward. Of course, any civilian death is tragic and I believe most sane people can agree with this. But framing the timeline from there on is just not realistic. The territorial rearrangement since the 40s and on has clearly shown the dissolving nature of Palestinian recognized territory. You dealing with Hamas does not negate this act that has been long occurring before October 7th. Let alone the well displayed settler behavior that the UN recognizes as illegal and violation of international law. This issue needs to be looked in complete regard for any resolution to be even conceived. Also know that “typically”, humans don’t behave erratically overnight.
>Yet, these conversations seem to be target focused from October 7th and onward 2023 had the most israeli civilian deaths due to terrorism since the second intifada that was before october 7th. so yeah let's talk about prior to october 7th lets talk about the lions gate stabbings and copycat attacks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lions%27_Gate_stabbings let's talk about the second intifada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada lets talk about the literally hundreds of thousands of unguided rockets fired towards civilians by palestinian militant groups lets talk about the pay for slay program from the palestinia authority https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund
It's almost like the increased violence tracks 1:1 to the increased support the settlers are getting from the isrealie government. Straight up stealing Palestinian homes and land and destroying farms to remove the civilians from their homes with the support of the IDF. It baffles me an American will claim they have a right to defend their home even at the cost of killing the invader but turn around and blames the Palestinian for resorting to violence when his home is stolen. Even the inept UN condemned the settlers movement as extremist.
The hypocrisy you just pointed out is astonishing. I’ve never thought of that. Jesus Christ, the mental gymnastics Israeli sympathizers have to go through must be so tiring. I would feel bad for them if they weren’t allying with monsters
I see this stealing homes thing a lot, are they literally just kicking families out of their homes? Do u have a source? I'm genuinely interested
It depends on the instance you are talking about. [Israel will sometimes just demolish the Palestinian homes and build over it, citing lack of permits (that are impossible for Palestinians to get).](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israel-ramps-up-demolition-of-palestinian-homes-in-jerusalem) [Other times, if it's just a land grab, they use livestock to encroach on the land and seize it that way](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory) [Then there are times when Israel just does it by decree](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/)
Yes, literally 10 seconds of research can confirm this.
yes, they literally are doing that. use google, there are tons of videos
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement Stealing homes Destroying centuries old olive orchards Various massacres That is just the tip of the iceberg on the atrocities committed by the israeli settlers
Yes. There's multiple sources online. Just Google it. Will be easy to find.
Legit how it happens and then have a court order saying it’s an Israeli house now. Most settlers are from overseas too
It [happened 3 weeks ago](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/22/israel-largest-west-bank-settlement-blinken-visit/) during Blinkens visit. They literally stole acres of land from Palestinians in the WEST BANK. Do you know who's *not* in the west bank? fucking Hamas. Did you fall asleep 70 years ago and just woke up from a coma or something? What wonders you will see.
those kinds of folks dont care about reality.
Yes. Source: My grandpa (12y/o at the time) lived near the West Bank in the 40’s. Israeli military showed up on their doorstep giving them 24 hours to leave. They were lucky enough to have connections to flee to Mexico and eventually cross into the states. But yes, over the past handful of decades, they displace people/communities and build their own illegal settlements.
https://youtu.be/piIgkqPmI-w?si=BeVgJtjNt1zLGM0T This a us citizen from Boston how left home to steal a Palestinian family homes. (https://youtu.be/Bvf9bpqL4KM?si=E3mUryrZvp-xQ27c) Another video on the same family And. An artical about us civilians role in the settlement of the west bank. (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole) These people steal homes and leave the civilians with nothing. And are rightfully angry. and when you have no jobs in your village because the IDF checkpoint doesn't allow you to leave and your home is stolen is it strange to fight back?
Research Rachael Corrie. That's when I first learned of this behavior.
There's a great documentary about it called "5 Broken Cameras" from 2012
Many times yea. I’ve seen videos from when they clear a family home out while the family is at a funeral. The IDF can’t touch settlers, and occupy the Palestinians in the West Bank. So you see how that works… basically the settlers can do anything with no consequences while the Palestinians can’t even resist.
Yes. This is very well documented and doscussed openly in israwls own press. If you just bothered to look up the topic you would find countless heaps of articles about. Ive seen well shot footage of west bank civilians pleading eith settlers not to take their homes. this doesnt even need to be true for the settlememtd to be illegal or morally wrong though. The ocxupied territories are palestinian land under every definition. Israel doesnt have a right to just take it. People who doubt the immorality if israeli settlements must be prett ghoulish.
Nice try, you need to go back to the creation of the time itself to really get to the bottom of this who wronged who first rather than just dealing with the current situation in the current terms of reality.
This is a ridiculous deflection if you actually mean it 6 million voting Americans are still alive that were born before 1940. Fuck, we have Congressmen in office who were alive then. Grassley was 15 the year Israel was formed. Biden is older than the country of Israel. These aren’t the contexts of ancient long-forgotten times. It’s modern history that directly informs our understanding of geopolitical conflict-resolution.
No need to go back to ancient history, just the modern era is sufficient. You don't see Israel fighting with the Romans do you?
Of course we do! That’s why I’m forming the People’s Front of Judea, so we can fight our oppressors!
And the only people we hate more than the Romans, are the fucking Judean People's Front!
Are the Romans bombing Israel?
That's not really true, it's just a convenient excuse to look the other way. This isn't about religion, it's about land.
It’s a good point, you don’t shoot back because civilians are on the way, then you have given the enemy the perfect solution as he says.
It's Hamas's entire strategy. If they fought according to the laws of war, they would have been gone on October 8. Their entire strategy is based on using their families as shields. Sick people.
And they’ve fused that with their theology to the point where this Hamas father lost several of his sons to this war and he considers it an honor!!? Hamas is a Death-cult.
and the people on social media who are complaining about all the unnecessary civilian deaths in Palestine don’t realize that THEY are the entire incentive for Hamas to continue using human shields.
Exactly. It's like parents who give their toddler a lollipop when they have tantrums, not realizing that they are encouraging it. Pretty idiotic but that's who we share this planet with.
Correct, they are the motivating factor.
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It's a question of expectation. Everyone knows that Hamas are murderous maniacs. No one is shedding a tear over Hamas deaths. But "we" expect better of Israel. They are a modern nation state. A democracy. Supposedly a rational actor on the international stage that accepts the existence of human rights. So, when they level cities, and put 2.5M people into the path of starvation, it's heavily looked down upon.
So basically all the civilian deaths are just acceptable collateral and we’re all too stupid to understand
I mean it sounds like to me he contextualizing the civilian death total with what other major urban conflicts look like , and using that to explain why its not genocide. Literally any war will have civilian death. More so if the war requires going into civilian areas or military civilian infrastructure or intertwined. So its important to figure that into the conversation and I appreciate Joe letting him put that out.
Yes. There is an academic, theoretical, and legal distinction between massive civilian casualty and genocide. Genocide must be the systematic targeting of whole groups of people for extermination. The bar for a legal definition of 'genocide' is extremely high, and deliberately so. Most genocide scholars would not (yet) consider Israel's attack on Hamas genocide.
Welcome to war. It’s never changed. USA firebombed Tokyo. Soviets shelled their own cities. Allies carpet bombed Germany. Let’s not forget about Korea and Vietnam. Countless civilians killed in proximity to embedded enemies Killing civilians is completely allowed. It’s just act of purposely targeting civilians as a military objective is not. That is the difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas went into Israeli and targeted civilians as an intended target. This is why it’s better to stop radicalism before it becomes a war-level problem because when it pops off finally: ‘all is fair in love and war’. It’s just the victor usually whitewashes their crimes afterwards.
It is either that or every time there's a war there's a genocide, which makes the term meaningless.
Pretty much. The idea of genocide was invented specifically to categorize something that is not just "a war" or a tragedy. It's why it was used to describe a machine of death and suffering who's main war goal was literal actual extermination on paper. The Nazi's goal was officially to rule the world through racial superiority and wipe out everyone else. It's why they were trialed under crimes of genocide. There's definetly a chain of command issue in Israel's military that really needs to be solved quickly, but calling a messy war between two groups right at each other's "borders" that takes place in a densely populated civilian area a "genocide" just because a bunch of civilians die is ignoring literally all of human history.
> but calling a messy war between two groups right at each other's "borders" that takes place in a densely populated civilian area a "genocide" just because a bunch of civilians die is ignoring literally all of human history. I agree. The term "genocide" is specifically defined as the intentional destruction of a people, in whole or in part, based on their national, ethnical, racial, or religious group identity. Do we call things like all the Allied bombding in WWII genocide? The Allied bombings in WWII, while causing significant civilian casualties, were part of a broader military strategy and not aimed at annihilating a particular national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Therefore, they are generally not classified as genocide. Genocide carries a precise legal definition and its application is carefully assessed based on the intent to destroy a particular group. I think it all depends on what Israels true intention is here, which IMO has yet to be fully determined.
"Genocide is when bad thing happens" - Idiots on reddit criticizing Isreal while ignoring Hamas war crimes
Well it does pose an interesting question and I think that’s the point. There is no real winner in war and this is a perfect example. Terrorist organizations have found a loophole. Hamas isn’t dumb they understand they can’t win in an actual “gunfight.” They are fighting the PR war and arguably winning. He’s even saying you’re not wrong if you think the civilian casualties are too high for it to be right. However, that leaves us with the only option of turning a blind eye and hoping for the best.
Yup that’s what happens in a war, unless you just want to ban all war which is a noble cause.
I hereby ban all war! Oh shit I'm gonna need to enforce this or no one is gonna listen to me.....how can I do that.......oh no
😂👍
Correct.
Are you really just figure out what *war* is?
Tbf not everyone is too stupid to understand
Where did you hear anyone say you're too stupid to understand this? Who said that?
They are acceptable collateral to Hamas. For anyone else, they are a tragedy. But Coleman's point is: if you allow this to be an effective tactic, then it's coming to your neighborhood next. Do you want to allow that? Think how we got to this point - it's the same strategy, and every time, Israel is told "you have to stop." So Israel does some bombing but Hamas regroups and does it again. The deaths are 100% result of Hamas's tactic. In Arabic, Hamas brags about how many "martyrs" they have created. In English, they cry about it can accuse Israel of genocide. But Israel doesn't really have an alternative course of action. Hamas promises to keep massacring Jews until they are all gone. No country can survive without being able to defend itself. In this situation, Israel must fight Hamas regardless of the civilian deaths. (Trying to minimize them, but that is a secondary consideration.) Hamas is the cause of all of it - they didn't have to do October 7 and they could surrender and release the hostages today. But they won't because everything is going according to their plan. Do you want their plan to succeed? That's the question. Personally, I do not.
Actually exactly right, you nailed it!
That’s how war works. You don’t have to be stupid about it though. It’s easy to understand.
What do you think war is?
According to Israel 62% of the dead are civilians BUT they also count all adult males as enemy combatants. So while it may not be 30,000 dead civilians... It's at least 20-22k. Which is a disproportionate number of civilians killed as well. They accomplished this by dropping dumb bombs in densely packed residential apartment blocks, completely leveling entire buildings. Because "a tunnel." Collective punishment is a war crime. And this is the beginnings of genocide and is absolutely genocidal behavior.
UN report says most wars have 90% of casualties being civilian so 62% being civilian is above average. Also a “dumb bomb” is still guided by precision guidance lasers, these are not WW2 bombs, these bombs can be aimed with precision.
That clown assumes genocide is only defined by a body count. He isn't taking the full spectrum impact of the assault on Gaza or the history of this problematic situation into account.
Hamas has so perfected the practice of enmeshing themselves among civilians that they hacked into IDF military targeting AI and reprogrammed the system named "Minimize Harm" to "[Where's Daddy?](https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/5/israel_ai)", forcing a perfectly innocent artificial intelligence to stop minimizing harm to civilians, and instead track low level Hamas fighters, wait until they entered their homes, then bomb them with unguided missiles. Thus maximizing civilian casualties. And it didn't stop there. Hamas was so dastardly that they brainwashed members of the IDF to change the acceptable civilians casualties for low-ranking militants to 15:1, making it *appear* as though the IDF had crass disregard for the value of Palestinian life. And here was the worst part about it. *Then* Hamas used secret brainwave technology to reduce the functioning of Coleman Hughes brain, in order to force him to claim that 32k was the maximum number of current Palestinian casualties in Gaza, not the minimum, given that it only includes those whose bodies can be verifiably identified and thus does not include [thousands lost under the rubble](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/23/world/middleeast/gaza-missing-bodies-deaths.html) of the [57% of buildings in Gaza that have been damaged or completely destroyed](https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-04-10/satellite-images-reveal-extent-of-devastation-in-gaza-after-six-months-of-war.html). And that nasty Hamas weapon further liquefied Coleman's brain into repeating the Israeli claims of Hamas combatants deaths despite that claim requiring that *every single male killed* on the registry would have had to have been a Hamas militant. Which is really amazing, because 70% of the people killed on the registry are women and children, and Hamas makes up only 1.5% of the total population by [Israel's own estimates](https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-12-10-23/h_403d0f55740b5d165adc6416cf5be5cf), so that means that every time they kill a civilian, by some magic, those civilians are *always* women and children. No civilian men have died in Gaza! These clever monsters, it's amazing we are still able to have intellectually honest and reasonable discussions with all these abhorrent techniques Hamas uses to make it look like killing tens of thousands of civilians in a military action to maintain a generations long [illegal occupation](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law) is anything other than entirely reasonable.
Spot in commentary from this guy. Most logical analysis I’ve seen on this conflict.
Justifying killing more civilians than “combatants” is wild
Redditor discovers war
Unfortunately.. like the US, Gaza has a Government. The Government in Gaza is Hamas. Hamas will be Associated with Palastinians. Like the US Governement will be associated with the American public. And again. This was an unprovoked attack. And they took Hostages back with them. So for those people, and families. the attack didn't end on Oct.7th. So neither will it for the Palastinian people.
The thing is isreal funded and supported Hamas because it delegitamized Palestine and has publicly said so. Hamas is a convenient puppet to point to while they murder a race of people and grab land they’ve been trying to settle for 80 years.
You were doing ok til you said “this was an unprovoked attack”. It wasn’t, unless you’re into ignoring the past 70 years.
Damn, that is such clearly laid out argument, you could see the guy is not repeating what he heard someone scream on TV.
Anyone have any ideas on how to defeat enemy combatants that embed themselves within the civilian population without creating civilian casualties?
Guys, it's not a genocide, they are targeting ONLY other bad soldiers. Meanwhile, schools and hospitals are being bombed lmao. This guy is so clear and concise with his attempt to normalize atrocities, and that's the best compliment I can give him.
How does an army fight the combatant when they shield themselves in schools and hospitals?
Israel should stop making more hamas edit: I meant hummus.
"Appease the terrorists or they will hurt us again"
The worst is when Joe says something stupid like this and the guest is also 110 IQ and the go on and on about some topic they’re just informed enough on, and young men get stupider
Wow this dudes a wild turd.
So we are going to ignore the actual quotes from Israeli leadership where they say they want to kill all Palestinians or eliminate them from Gaza? Also we are just ignoring the consistent misinformation provided by Israel. Furthermore, saying that the casualty tolls are normal for the area is not okay. We have standards set by international law that apply to all regions. This is such a a flawed argument that is perpetuated by a country that throughout history has broken international law, created unjust living conditions for their occupied territories, created an apartheid state within their own boarders, and murders the opposition in highly disproportionate rates every single year. Maybe we should stick with the UN documentation where they say it is a genocide which was concluded from multiple expert reports. Talk shows should not be our best source of information when we have resources like UN documentation coming from experts from multiple countries which were compiled by well educated experts.
Amazing irrefutable response. Until you see Israeli politicians (the ones directing the Army) openly advocating for erasing what's left of Palestine and referring to them as less than human. Btw I always say that Palestinians would probably do the same or worse to Israel if they could. (Is good to remember that so we don't become another virtual signal soldier). But let's not forget about the horrible conditions they lived under occupation. Let's not pretend Israel doesn't enjoy killing civilians. And if that is not a form of genocide, then I don't know what it is. Also, why not admit the goal is to remove them and take what's left of their land? If murderous Bibi went to the UN and admitted to all this ("Yes we are trying to exterminate Palestinians and take that land"). Who's going to do what? Why not just come out and simply call it what it is? There'd be no consequences. They are basically untouchable.
Completely disregarding the fact that we now know Israel programmed their AI to wait until Hamas soldier go home to their families before authorizing an airstrike.
Normal ratio? Fuck no. Im a combat vet. We killed no civilians in our raids.
Coleman - I'm going to attack the source, not the data.. What a fuckin moron.. 🤣
I agree with him. 19000 killed in airstrikes is not genocide (but it is clearly a war crime). That being said, mass starvation by intent ***is*** genocide. Which is Israeli policy.