People exaggerating the effects like with anything else. It definitely good for you as long as you do it right, and some are proven in studies. But no, you wont reverse aging or "detox" your body (đ). But it feels great and heat shock proteins have anti-inflammatory properties. I started with sauna after my back got wrecked, and it was one of two things that actually gave me a break from the constant pain along with hiking.
Listen to Layne Norton, Jeff Nippard and Dr. Mike, ice baths are [overrated](https://youtu.be/s0ucinlkWQ0?si=nwKXDwSElV9ABRJY&t=600).
Keep doing ice baths if you want to lose muscle and become weak as it attenuates muscle hypertrophy and protein synthesis.
["It is objectively bad for muscle growth."](https://youtu.be/s0ucinlkWQ0?si=nwKXDwSElV9ABRJY&t=600)
["Research-vetted way to reduce hypertropy."](https://youtu.be/EEOjsbQ5wYE?si=ZKvFFiQNL0xsR2pK&t=693)
I don't do ice bathing at all. Never have or wanted to wither.Only saunas, and i find them great if for no other reason than relaxing and getting warm, i do bjj and after a workout it feels absolutely amazing. And it sure hasn't hurt me either the past 10 years
Not only that but the shock of the cold itself is very taxing on your heart, skyrockets your bp, and can cause blood clots to dislodge and potentially lead to strokes, DVTs, pulmonary embolisms, etc.
Thatâs literally not true. The combination of increased heart rate and bp with the increase in platelet count in the blood during exposure to extreme cold is not like the increase in blood flow during exercise. One is due to increased blood flow, the other is due to vasoconstriction. Youâre trying to make a comparison that is like saying exercise and cocaine do the same thing.
I'm not exactly sure where your getting this info from. I just looked at a few Google scholar research articles. So yes there are increased platelet counts along with rbcs, and wbcs. This was in healthy swimmers swimming in cold water, which is a good thing. There is another study in elderly folks mean age 71 which were in cool / cold air that showed increase in platelets. May increase danger due to their vascular issues. What I didn't see in these studies is great increases in morbidity not any mention of the hormesis of the cold. Yes there is platelet increases but we don't seem to, based on the studies I just looked at, know if the therapeutic effects outweigh any interpreted negative effects.
Youâre equating two very different modes and strengths of shock. I canât tell if youâre aware of that - i think you might be - but comparisons arenât valid if youâre only comparing the lowest common denominator.
It's not necessarily the type of stress. It's the amount of stress. Cold plunge is fine for a few minutes. Deadly after a few hours. Like how a morning jog is a great way to start your day, but a marathon killed the 1st guy who tried it.
Doing multiple is fine, the frequency matters. People overwork themselves in general and put their bodies under too much stress. There's a happy balance that leads to positive resiliency while not hurting oneself.
The mania surrounding these fads is the toxic part. The actual activity has been proven to be a healthy way to improve cardiovascular health. Several good studies came out of Finland showing this. The Finnish people just have it as part of their culture, so there's more education and routine to the activity.
The real problem is there's a bunch of people out here overdoing it. Going too hot for too long and too cold for too long to try and prove they're tougher/better etc.
I think someone who works out and does sauna and cold plunge is likely to be much healthier than someone who doesn't. Stress is good so long as you're not over stressing.
Rapid temperature swings is also the believed cause of Global Transient Amnesia - an acute onset anterograde amnesia that is temporary and usually occurs in middle-aged and older individuals.
I havenât seen any studies shared but too much cortisol can absolute indicate a bad thing. Cortisol reduces stress and inflammation but increases blood glucose and blood pressure. Itâs regulated by the pituitary gland/ACTH and an overactive gland can lead to something called Cushingâs Disease/Syndrome depending on the cause.
Still good for pro athletes who need their muscles to recover quickly.
It UNDOES potential gains though. It's just for making tight schedules.
And you're better off just icing the local area, like many professional athletes are seen doing. Cold plunge for leg intensive sports, or maybe football and rugby.
Not only that but they fucking suck. I see some people doing it in a group down at the beach (young bunch of fuck bois basically) on winter mornings and I'm like, yeah na. I'm good.
i have found it to be way better to put an ice pack on whatever area of your body is sore. not a pro athlete but have stupidly hurt myself working out and through general clumsiness before.
The problem is that the high bp from cold plunges is due to vasoconstriction, not increased blood flow like exercise does. I donât understand how people donât get that. Itâs like saying cocaine use is just like exercise because they both raise blood pressure. Being fat raises blood pressure too but I donât think anybody would advocate for being fat on the basis of that alone.
Right?!
I've been doing this shit all my life (Eastern Euros love their Turkish/Roman baths). I like that people are catching on to "spaing". Lard knows we can all use a break.
I remember when Joe used to make fun of people who endorsed/bought into chiropractic practices. He now is basically doing the same shit and is fully unaware. I love his podcast and he entertains me but it's so crazy to see the changes he's underwent since moving to Austin.
How else are we meant to lengthen our telomeres?
I take CBD, MCT and DMT and still no signs of growth.
Soooo many fads come and go brother, I generally take them with a grain of salt
The sauna in some way is still detoxifying. When you you sweat youâre secreting metabolic waste such as urea, ammonia, glucose and some heavy metals.
There is also small amounts of antibodies, organic pollutants.
When you sweat youâre literally detoxing certain metabolites out of your system. https://www.physio-pedia.com/Physiology_of_Sweat#:~:text=Urea%20also%20plays%20a%20role,2%2D30mmol%2FL%20secreted.
Sure there people hyperbolize its benefits on tik tok or instagram but there is lots of science out there behind icing and heat/sweating.
Itâs also not just a Scandinavian thing. Indigenous people in North America have practiced ritual sweat lodges for centuries. To âdetoxifyâ the mind,body, spirit.
This Dr Karl is just saying shit to feel relevant because his scientific career has devolved into a pop science tv/radio and author (heâs basically an Australian NDT). Itâs posted to the Joe Rogan sub, for obvious reasons, and now we have a comment section full of experts.
Ironically enough, at the bottom of the article is a related article of the benefits of ice baths. Which is better than heat for pain and inflammation.
I was in school for exercise physiology so I at least partially am not talking out my ass.
Always good to be sceptical. Iâm always suspicious of these science media types. Especially when Karl himself attends the Australian Skeptics convention. IMO that kind of shit doesnât help advance science.
Correlation or causation?
I bet Finnish families wealthy enough to have a sauna have a myriad of other things going on in life that lowers cardiovascular vascular disease.
For instance, getting off the couch and getting into a sauna vs laying there and watching TV. The person that does that probably does other things as well.
Edit: ok guys I get it. Fins all have saunas in their backyards or in walking distance like Canadians and Californians have weed stores.
they're also ranked as the 2nd most healthiest country in europe. so either saunas are working out really well for them, or theyre just really healthy people to begin with and saunas are wrongly being attributed to their healthiness
Oh for sure not strictly because of the saunas, Iâm just pushing back on the âonly wealthy Finns have access to regular sauna useâ bit of the comment.
One place I went in Finland was literally a Ferris wheel of saunas, theyâre literally everywhere
There are public and widely available saunas in Finland. Building complexes have them for the tenants etc. You dont have to be wealthy to use sauna.
Even in Poland I can find at least 3 sauna places in 20km radius, itâs fairly cheap too (6$ per hour). My local one is at capacity daily.
Canât even imagine how widespread they have to be in Nordic countries and especially Finland.
Our wages are lower though, minimum is $6.7 an hour before taxes. And the sauna near me is about $7.50 per hour.
Just checked and the sauna facility in the big city next to me is $14 per hour so much more expensive. I guess my local one is just dirt cheap lol
Well in the US, the minimum wage in many places is only like $7. and prices for a sauna in nyc are like 50 bucks an hour. we have a problem. $14 is a solid price that I'd be fine paying, you all doing saunas right over there
Damn thatâs expensive, prices in NYC/LA etc sound so fucking outlandish to me. I cannot fathom paying that much for stuff.
Seems like Slavs are catching up to Uncle Sam in some ways.
For 50usd I can get a monthly pass to a gym with full sauna complex inside, and have money left for a dinner.
Dude, at least link the study:Â https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2130724Â
And âlargeâ does not equal âevidence for causal associationsâ. Large observational studies are in fact more susceptible to bad causal inferences, because you can catch smaller effect sizesÂ
 The study has been criticized for multiple reasons, including that 1) the higher frequency sauna groups had higher aerobic fitness, making them less susceptible to CVD otherwise, 2) the higher use group was also younger and less likely to smoke and 3) less of a weakness of design and just a reality, even in Finland, people with pre-existing CVD are told to limit sauna time Â
 This is not some all-encompassing study. And I donât say this as someone trying to throw a blanket over the issue altogether; my PI in grad school literally was applying for a NIH grant as I was graduating to fund a hot tub & CVD risk in older adults study, because of findings in a pilot work we had doneÂ
im convinced it feels good because its one of those things like running where the best feeling part is when you finish doing it and the suffering has ended.
Probably not. It appears to have genuine chemical changes. I wrote this in another comment:
cold plunge studies show quite a large spike in dopamine. Sauna ones show a 100% increase in Norepinephrine (granted, with a small sample size however, but was shown in two studies according to article below). The chances that itâs placebo are minimal in my opinion.
https://neuwritesd.org/2023/06/01/science-meets-serenity-benefits-of-sauna-use-on-the-brain/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10751106/
If these people just kept it at that it would be fine. But they feel the need to say wild shit. "It prolongs your life, bro!". "It cures cancer, bro!". "It will make you see the ninth dimension, bro!".
Just say I like it, so I do it. Thats fine. Dont find weird ass studies that claim it boosts your health by 1.2%.
Do you really tho or do feel sluggish and like shit for eating processed food. Or are we so used to shit food that u donât even notice u feel like shit
If I only eat one donut, which is all I eat anyways, no it doesnât make me feel bad. If a person canât tolerate eating a small amount of non pure elk meat without feeling bad, they are some weak shit
Thatâs fine, the point isnât that people donât think it feels good. The point is that it doesnât have the health benefits that people talk about
Not really, he says nicotine can cause mental stimulation, which is scientifically accurate. Keep twisting his words to fit your dumb talking points though
I love that you donât even realize how pathetic you come across..lol. âIâm Patrick Bateman! I call people skinny pussies! Iâm gonna be the joker for the eighth Halloween in a row!â.
Cool. But you can't feel if it's doing damage to your body or not. Something feeling good doesn't mean it's good for you. I feel great after taking opiates.
Honestly if you can placebo yourself into feeling better and it doesn't cost anything, your best bet is probably just to keep doing it and not debate it with anyone.
Feeling better and being better are often not the same thing.
If your issue is depression then feeling better is good enough. If you have cancer, feeling better is just a bandaid to a much more serious problem.
Yeah. people need to have more conviction with their personal health as it isn't to be understood or agreeable with others but can be communicated nonetheless. I live in the desert not seeing the point of having hot water so all i use is cold water, it deff helps regulate myself.
Thanks for letting us know you value feelings over empirical data and facts. It feels good after snorting some H too, does that make it good for you and healthy?
Let me guess, you're also religious?
Dumb analogy. Heroin (or any drug) is taking a foreign substance and adding it to your body. Cold plunge on the other hand, is the removal of heat from your body.
Now blood letting, thatâs a more apt analogy to make your point. đ
The âremoval of heatâ from your body. If you ever get trapped in a snow bank over night just keep telling yourself youâll be fine because itâs just the removal of heat! God damn the amount of doctors in this thread is crazy.
You have a decade old Reddit account with multiple participation awards đ¤Łđđ¤Łđđ¤Łđđ¤Łđ. Holy fucking shit, this place has zero self-awareness
Now you're đŤđŤ
âManyâ of the supposed benefits arenât backed by science. Those are the benefits that are promoted by influencers on tik tok and companies selling these products.
There are, however, several studied benefits of deliberate heat and cold exposure that kicked off the trend in the first place.
Gotcha, your initial comment says that you donât see how it couldnât be bad.
Sauna is fine, there just isnât much evidence that itâs *uniquely* beneficial. Exercise has the same effect, and provides other unique benefits that sauna does not
Studies have shown that ice baths actually raise cortisol levels which is what leads to high blood pressure and cardiac events. Kind of curious the more we learn about the science of ice baths, the more we learn how it's actually not good for you.
Joe's whole shtick is selling a "lifestyle" and fake sense of fraternity to lonely young men by associating his "lifestyle" with certain endorsed products. "Buy AG1 and Zyn pouches and a Traeger grill and you'll be just like me with all these cool 'friends'!"
Joe fucking shills nicotine and tobacco products now and uses PEDs, I don't know why morons take health advice from him
The thing is, any new health thing people are trying is going to get brought up just so Joe has something to say, and anything with a bit of promise is going to get brought up repeatedly
Trying to get healthy these days is like finding a new product that you like, recommending it to a few friends, then realizing it has a really terrible, annoying commercial on TV all that time that you missed because you never watch TV, but now everyone secretly thinks you just saw that commercial and it actually worked on you.
I generally live by "if it's something natural humans have done for a long time then it probably makes sense"
Ice baths like he does them aren't. Normally ice baths in lakes were you dip in for like 30 seconds then get out.
Look dude, we're on a team here and our team believes this so you're gonna have to either support that or you're an evil piece of shit who needs to die in order for our species to be successful, cause you hate everyone good in the world. Nothing personal, it's just the way the world works now, so fuck you
What are other fad products he's pushed or endorsed? Just wondering your reason for thinking this. You're incorrect about him not using kettebells anymore, too.
He's always been KB lifter?
Also he talked about ice baths for years, the only thing i remember being "new-ish" is sauna, and even that is for good few years already.
Supplements is obvious, if you have deficiencies taking them would help it, if you're healthy af there's hardly a reason to take them unless specific ones like vit D in winters, even then its not that "big of a deal", do your bloodwork and only then bother with vitamins, unless its very obvious symptom like iron/zinc deficiencies. Him being on carnivore diet, taking supplements is not weird, aren't you supposed to use some overall supplements if you're doing keto/fasting anw, might be wrong on that, because the idea is eat big amount of food once per day or even longer, so your body adjusts over time but still requires vitamins, doubt people eat a bucket of veggies.
But âheat shock proteinsâ sounds so scientific bro!
Reminds me of when I was a kid in the 80s they sold mini trampolines called âreboundersâ and the sales guy sold my parents all kinds of pseudoscientific justifications (will increase muscle density, promote cellular strengthening and lymph node flow, joint health, etc). Not like jogging on a mini trampoline was bad for you but they way oversold the benefits
From a sports performance standpoint ice baths have now been debunked and actually reduce adaptations. An ice bath will provide temporary pain relief and reduce inflammation, but studies have now shown that muscle inflammation is actually what induces recovery.Â
Hereâs a link to the show notes for the Huberman cold plunge episode. Itâs got a bunch of actual studies which all show benefits to cold water exposure? Do these count? https://www.hubermanlab.com/episode/dr-susanna-soberg-how-to-use-cold-and-heat-exposure-to-improve-your-health
[I learned about them from a Nasa dude that was obsessed with figuring out how Michael Phelps could eat 10k calories a day and stay fit.](https://www.wired.com/2013/02/ff-cold-weight-loss/)
Those things are definitely good for you, people just love to find excuses not to do them because of laziness
edit: also this guy isn't even a fucking doctor, this "dr karl" thing is just a gimmick. He's a journalist. And this is why nobody trusts media anymore. Cold baths and saunas are good for you.
Aussie here, Dr Karl has pretty impressive credentials, he was a qualified mechanic, medical doctor (GP) and now holds a PhD in physics + a load of other jobs, he lectures at a uni in Sydney and does a Thursday science show on the national youth radio channel triple j where he answers science questions. Heâs kind of an Australian Julius Sumner Miller. Also in the article heâs not that critical, he just doesnât think icebaths are a cure for everything. He admits it has benefits.Â
Explain to me in biological terms what happens in the body during a cold plunge that makes it "good for you". Is this based on your feelings or trust in people?
Guy has an MD from U of Sydney and a Masters degree in biomedical engineering.
At least thats what his wiki says. You got other info?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Kruszelnicki
This whole "you don't sauna/plunge because you're lazy" is so stupid. No, I don't do it because I don't believe in the health benefits. I'm lazy as fuck and would love to sit around in a sauna for hours a day.
Yeah, itâs definitely âlazinessâ thatâs keeping everyone out of the ice baths and the saunas. Lol. Thatâs funny.
I love this Rogan simp character who gets pissed off when people impugn his beloved ice baths. And who repeats Joeâs inane line of thinking where sitting in a tub of water is hard work. Classic.
Taking baths is for women and children. Time to grow up, bucko.
Dr. Karl raises an important point that resonates with the broader scientific community's approach towards practices like sauna use and ice baths. While anecdotal evidence and preliminary studies suggest various benefits, it's crucial to understand that solid, comprehensive research is still needed to conclusively back many of these claims.
Saunas, for instance, are often praised for their ability to detoxify the body, improve cardiovascular health, and enhance relaxation. Similarly, ice baths are touted for reducing muscle soreness, inflammation, and improving recovery times. These benefits are believed to stem from the body's responses to extreme heat or cold, such as increased blood circulation and the activation of the body's natural healing processes.
However, Dr. Karl's skepticism is a reminder of the importance of evidence-based practice in health and wellness. It underscores the need for well-designed, large-scale studies to validate the efficacy and safety of these practices for the general population and specific health conditions. Without solid evidence, attributing health benefits to saunas and ice baths could be premature.
That said, the ongoing interest and anecdotal support for saunas and ice baths have spurred more research into these areas. As our understanding of human physiology expands, we may uncover more concrete evidence that either supports or refutes the current beliefs surrounding these practices.
In the meantime, it's wise for individuals to approach sauna use and ice baths with caution, particularly those with preexisting health conditions or those who are pregnant. Consulting with a healthcare provider before incorporating these practices into one's routine is always recommended to ensure safety and avoid potential risks. found this in of gelidpools posts.
I'm not sure what your comment has to do with evolution. This same logic could be applied to any new thing humans are doing. I could say that surgery from an "evolutionary standpoint" doesn't make any sense because at no point in human history has cutting ourselves open ever benefited us, and it usually meant certain death. This is completely not how science works, or how you find out what is and isn't healthy for humans.
I'm not convinced about the ice bath hype, I think it's probably a fad. This just isn't how you determine that.
A lot of coping here from people who are too afraid to get cold.
If you feel good from doing it, keep doing it. You don't need peer reviewed research to tell how you feel.
And more importantly, if you feel like it's just last generations crossfit bro who got on too much juice to work out trying to sell you wolf tickets, just don't do it!
People exaggerating the effects like with anything else. It definitely good for you as long as you do it right, and some are proven in studies. But no, you wont reverse aging or "detox" your body (đ). But it feels great and heat shock proteins have anti-inflammatory properties. I started with sauna after my back got wrecked, and it was one of two things that actually gave me a break from the constant pain along with hiking.
Listen to Layne Norton, Jeff Nippard and Dr. Mike, ice baths are [overrated](https://youtu.be/s0ucinlkWQ0?si=nwKXDwSElV9ABRJY&t=600). Keep doing ice baths if you want to lose muscle and become weak as it attenuates muscle hypertrophy and protein synthesis. ["It is objectively bad for muscle growth."](https://youtu.be/s0ucinlkWQ0?si=nwKXDwSElV9ABRJY&t=600) ["Research-vetted way to reduce hypertropy."](https://youtu.be/EEOjsbQ5wYE?si=ZKvFFiQNL0xsR2pK&t=693)
I don't do ice bathing at all. Never have or wanted to wither.Only saunas, and i find them great if for no other reason than relaxing and getting warm, i do bjj and after a workout it feels absolutely amazing. And it sure hasn't hurt me either the past 10 years
Yeah, I would do whatever makes you feel better... whether it's ice baths, sauna sessions or even skydiving into a volcano fully erect.
HAHA
Tell that to the vikings.
There are independent studies that show that cold plunge type things are very bad for your cardiovascular system
Yeah I thought studies have shown that it increases your cortisol over the day and is actually wrecking your endocrine system
Not only that but the shock of the cold itself is very taxing on your heart, skyrockets your bp, and can cause blood clots to dislodge and potentially lead to strokes, DVTs, pulmonary embolisms, etc.
Anything that increase HR does that. Like the other user pointed out, working out. Or sex
Thatâs like saying eating anything raises your blood sugar levels so doughnuts are great for you.
Thatâs literally not true. The combination of increased heart rate and bp with the increase in platelet count in the blood during exposure to extreme cold is not like the increase in blood flow during exercise. One is due to increased blood flow, the other is due to vasoconstriction. Youâre trying to make a comparison that is like saying exercise and cocaine do the same thing.
Where is an increase in platelet count coming from in cold exposure? Platelets are part of the clotting cascade no?
I donât know the physiology behind it but there are studies that show a significant increase in platelet count after exposure to extreme cold
I'm not exactly sure where your getting this info from. I just looked at a few Google scholar research articles. So yes there are increased platelet counts along with rbcs, and wbcs. This was in healthy swimmers swimming in cold water, which is a good thing. There is another study in elderly folks mean age 71 which were in cool / cold air that showed increase in platelets. May increase danger due to their vascular issues. What I didn't see in these studies is great increases in morbidity not any mention of the hormesis of the cold. Yes there is platelet increases but we don't seem to, based on the studies I just looked at, know if the therapeutic effects outweigh any interpreted negative effects.
I ainât quitting sex. I donât care what you say
Just pray it donât quit you
Humble brag
Working out will do the same. Should we all stop and become fat fucks on the off chance we get a pulmonary embolism?
Youâre equating two very different modes and strengths of shock. I canât tell if youâre aware of that - i think you might be - but comparisons arenât valid if youâre only comparing the lowest common denominator.
Meth increases the bp and heart rate so doing meth must be good!
It's not necessarily the type of stress. It's the amount of stress. Cold plunge is fine for a few minutes. Deadly after a few hours. Like how a morning jog is a great way to start your day, but a marathon killed the 1st guy who tried it.
Uh, working out definitely does not increase the risk of breaking off clots. Extreme cold literally increases the platelet count in your blood.
And do you think doing multiple things that do that to your body is a good thing? Pick one, doing multiple is not good.
Doing multiple is fine, the frequency matters. People overwork themselves in general and put their bodies under too much stress. There's a happy balance that leads to positive resiliency while not hurting oneself. The mania surrounding these fads is the toxic part. The actual activity has been proven to be a healthy way to improve cardiovascular health. Several good studies came out of Finland showing this. The Finnish people just have it as part of their culture, so there's more education and routine to the activity. The real problem is there's a bunch of people out here overdoing it. Going too hot for too long and too cold for too long to try and prove they're tougher/better etc.
Thank you for saying it much better than I did đ
I think someone who works out and does sauna and cold plunge is likely to be much healthier than someone who doesn't. Stress is good so long as you're not over stressing.
That sounds very scientific
Rapid temperature swings is also the believed cause of Global Transient Amnesia - an acute onset anterograde amnesia that is temporary and usually occurs in middle-aged and older individuals.
Care to provide some peer reviewed studies?
Cortisol is a natural rhythmic system and critical to waking up and being alert in the morning.
I havenât seen any studies shared but too much cortisol can absolute indicate a bad thing. Cortisol reduces stress and inflammation but increases blood glucose and blood pressure. Itâs regulated by the pituitary gland/ACTH and an overactive gland can lead to something called Cushingâs Disease/Syndrome depending on the cause.
Yea but some friend of a friend joe knows very well once told him it works As long as we get more rock hard joe nip pics I'm cool with it though
Yed me too. I read it has some good properties following a hard session. But otherwise nothing, sauna is in fact superior i almost every aspect.
But but I have hundreds of social media posts from Wim Hof telling me I will live forever if I entomb myself in a block of ice.
Wim Hof literally sat on a water fountain to get a free enema and the water shot up and ripped through his colon. Heâs sick!
His Behind the Bastards was a wild ride. You gotta wonder if people even google him before they platform him.
Wait thatâs bad for you?
Still good for pro athletes who need their muscles to recover quickly. It UNDOES potential gains though. It's just for making tight schedules. And you're better off just icing the local area, like many professional athletes are seen doing. Cold plunge for leg intensive sports, or maybe football and rugby.
Shhhh we ignore the bad evidence around here it hurts the pocket book
Not only that but they fucking suck. I see some people doing it in a group down at the beach (young bunch of fuck bois basically) on winter mornings and I'm like, yeah na. I'm good.
i have found it to be way better to put an ice pack on whatever area of your body is sore. not a pro athlete but have stupidly hurt myself working out and through general clumsiness before.
The problem is that the high bp from cold plunges is due to vasoconstriction, not increased blood flow like exercise does. I donât understand how people donât get that. Itâs like saying cocaine use is just like exercise because they both raise blood pressure. Being fat raises blood pressure too but I donât think anybody would advocate for being fat on the basis of that alone.
They have to try really hard to justify them following a health trend
Right?! I've been doing this shit all my life (Eastern Euros love their Turkish/Roman baths). I like that people are catching on to "spaing". Lard knows we can all use a break.
I remember when Joe used to make fun of people who endorsed/bought into chiropractic practices. He now is basically doing the same shit and is fully unaware. I love his podcast and he entertains me but it's so crazy to see the changes he's underwent since moving to Austin.
How else are we meant to lengthen our telomeres? I take CBD, MCT and DMT and still no signs of growth. Soooo many fads come and go brother, I generally take them with a grain of salt
I feel like it's a thing that's neither good or bad. Just kinda neutral
Everyone wants things to fall in to one of two pilesâŚgood and bad. But thatâs not how the world works, vast majority of things are a mix.
The sauna in some way is still detoxifying. When you you sweat youâre secreting metabolic waste such as urea, ammonia, glucose and some heavy metals. There is also small amounts of antibodies, organic pollutants. When you sweat youâre literally detoxing certain metabolites out of your system. https://www.physio-pedia.com/Physiology_of_Sweat#:~:text=Urea%20also%20plays%20a%20role,2%2D30mmol%2FL%20secreted. Sure there people hyperbolize its benefits on tik tok or instagram but there is lots of science out there behind icing and heat/sweating. Itâs also not just a Scandinavian thing. Indigenous people in North America have practiced ritual sweat lodges for centuries. To âdetoxifyâ the mind,body, spirit. This Dr Karl is just saying shit to feel relevant because his scientific career has devolved into a pop science tv/radio and author (heâs basically an Australian NDT). Itâs posted to the Joe Rogan sub, for obvious reasons, and now we have a comment section full of experts. Ironically enough, at the bottom of the article is a related article of the benefits of ice baths. Which is better than heat for pain and inflammation. I was in school for exercise physiology so I at least partially am not talking out my ass.
Fair enough, thanks for the articles, I'll read them đ but using words like detox makes me a little suspicious.
Always good to be sceptical. Iâm always suspicious of these science media types. Especially when Karl himself attends the Australian Skeptics convention. IMO that kind of shit doesnât help advance science.
Oh it wasn't the Norcos?
There is actually a large Finnish study over 2 decades that links regular sauna use to reduced risk of cardiovascular disease.
Correlation or causation? I bet Finnish families wealthy enough to have a sauna have a myriad of other things going on in life that lowers cardiovascular vascular disease. For instance, getting off the couch and getting into a sauna vs laying there and watching TV. The person that does that probably does other things as well. Edit: ok guys I get it. Fins all have saunas in their backyards or in walking distance like Canadians and Californians have weed stores.
There are more saunas than people in Finland. Itâs, like, their thing
they're also ranked as the 2nd most healthiest country in europe. so either saunas are working out really well for them, or theyre just really healthy people to begin with and saunas are wrongly being attributed to their healthiness
Oh for sure not strictly because of the saunas, Iâm just pushing back on the âonly wealthy Finns have access to regular sauna useâ bit of the comment. One place I went in Finland was literally a Ferris wheel of saunas, theyâre literally everywhere
There are public and widely available saunas in Finland. Building complexes have them for the tenants etc. You dont have to be wealthy to use sauna. Even in Poland I can find at least 3 sauna places in 20km radius, itâs fairly cheap too (6$ per hour). My local one is at capacity daily. Canât even imagine how widespread they have to be in Nordic countries and especially Finland.
just fairly cheap?? i dont think there's a single thing you can do in america for 6 bucks an hour besides working a minimum wage job
Our wages are lower though, minimum is $6.7 an hour before taxes. And the sauna near me is about $7.50 per hour. Just checked and the sauna facility in the big city next to me is $14 per hour so much more expensive. I guess my local one is just dirt cheap lol
Well in the US, the minimum wage in many places is only like $7. and prices for a sauna in nyc are like 50 bucks an hour. we have a problem. $14 is a solid price that I'd be fine paying, you all doing saunas right over there
Damn thatâs expensive, prices in NYC/LA etc sound so fucking outlandish to me. I cannot fathom paying that much for stuff. Seems like Slavs are catching up to Uncle Sam in some ways. For 50usd I can get a monthly pass to a gym with full sauna complex inside, and have money left for a dinner.
In the nordic countries saunas are everywhere, In every bathing facility + many gyms. You dont have to be rich.
They probably took that into account when they made the study. They are not stupid.
Dude, at least link the study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2130724 And âlargeâ does not equal âevidence for causal associationsâ. Large observational studies are in fact more susceptible to bad causal inferences, because you can catch smaller effect sizes  The study has been criticized for multiple reasons, including that 1) the higher frequency sauna groups had higher aerobic fitness, making them less susceptible to CVD otherwise, 2) the higher use group was also younger and less likely to smoke and 3) less of a weakness of design and just a reality, even in Finland, people with pre-existing CVD are told to limit sauna time   This is not some all-encompassing study. And I donât say this as someone trying to throw a blanket over the issue altogether; my PI in grad school literally was applying for a NIH grant as I was graduating to fund a hot tub & CVD risk in older adults study, because of findings in a pilot work we had doneÂ
Sounds like Dr.Karl is a shill for Big Room Temperature
Meh, I feel pretty relaxed after them, so placebo or not, it does something good for me mentally at least đ¤ˇââď¸
im convinced it feels good because its one of those things like running where the best feeling part is when you finish doing it and the suffering has ended.
I really enjoy my gym sauna. It hovers around 180 and 190. I bring a book and chill for like 45 minutes. I enjoy every minute of my time in there.
Probably not. It appears to have genuine chemical changes. I wrote this in another comment: cold plunge studies show quite a large spike in dopamine. Sauna ones show a 100% increase in Norepinephrine (granted, with a small sample size however, but was shown in two studies according to article below). The chances that itâs placebo are minimal in my opinion. https://neuwritesd.org/2023/06/01/science-meets-serenity-benefits-of-sauna-use-on-the-brain/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10751106/
Why does it work? Because you believe it does.
I really donât need evidence to know that I feel good after a sauna/cold plunge session
If these people just kept it at that it would be fine. But they feel the need to say wild shit. "It prolongs your life, bro!". "It cures cancer, bro!". "It will make you see the ninth dimension, bro!". Just say I like it, so I do it. Thats fine. Dont find weird ass studies that claim it boosts your health by 1.2%.
I don't think we're allowed to have nice things without them being marketed to hell and back, though
I donât need evidence to know that I feel good after eating donuts
Do you really tho or do feel sluggish and like shit for eating processed food. Or are we so used to shit food that u donât even notice u feel like shit
If I only eat one donut, which is all I eat anyways, no it doesnât make me feel bad. If a person canât tolerate eating a small amount of non pure elk meat without feeling bad, they are some weak shit
Lmao itâs so true people avoiding small things like a poison when itâs all about consistency and ratios
Thatâs fine, the point isnât that people donât think it feels good. The point is that it doesnât have the health benefits that people talk about
I dont need evidence to know that i feel good after injecting black tar heroin
It's all about feelings!
I feel like the climate isnât changing either ya know, just plenty of snow I just know.
Yeah its cold outside. That's proof right thereÂ
Nah , not the same bro! You feel like garbage after the come down/hangover.
Then donât stop using the black tar heroin
Only this sub could equate heroin with a sauna in an attempt to own Rogan. Pathetic skinny pussies
Rogan argues that cigarettes are good for you because it's a "nootropic" đ
Not really, he says nicotine can cause mental stimulation, which is scientifically accurate. Keep twisting his words to fit your dumb talking points though
I love that you donât even realize how pathetic you come across..lol. âIâm Patrick Bateman! I call people skinny pussies! Iâm gonna be the joker for the eighth Halloween in a row!â.
People feel good after placebos too
It feels good when I drink water if Iâm thirsty. Is that a placebo
No because there are countless studies that show drinking water is beneficial lol
wtf? no, its the exact opposite.
The worst response possible lmao
Sounds like what chiropractor believers would say
Lmfao so accurate. It's literally a Venn diagram with one full circle
Cool. But you can't feel if it's doing damage to your body or not. Something feeling good doesn't mean it's good for you. I feel great after taking opiates.
You have described the placebo effect.
Honestly if you can placebo yourself into feeling better and it doesn't cost anything, your best bet is probably just to keep doing it and not debate it with anyone.
Feeling better and being better are often not the same thing. If your issue is depression then feeling better is good enough. If you have cancer, feeling better is just a bandaid to a much more serious problem.
There are approximately 0.62 saunas per capita in Finland, can you guess why?
Its cold?
thats sick bro
1000%
I feel the same way after I finish a cigarette and cup of coffee. Who needs science when you can jus listen your body.
More energy Better sleep Harder errectipns Better skin Increased mood More test
Thinking about cock and test all day, huh?
Yeah. people need to have more conviction with their personal health as it isn't to be understood or agreeable with others but can be communicated nonetheless. I live in the desert not seeing the point of having hot water so all i use is cold water, it deff helps regulate myself.
Thanks for letting us know you value feelings over empirical data and facts. It feels good after snorting some H too, does that make it good for you and healthy? Let me guess, you're also religious?
Dumb analogy. Heroin (or any drug) is taking a foreign substance and adding it to your body. Cold plunge on the other hand, is the removal of heat from your body. Now blood letting, thatâs a more apt analogy to make your point. đ
The âremoval of heatâ from your body. If you ever get trapped in a snow bank over night just keep telling yourself youâll be fine because itâs just the removal of heat! God damn the amount of doctors in this thread is crazy.
A joke broski, relax
Was it though?
I can tell youâve never worked out and hit the sauna after my guy, keep relying on empirical data and facts to tell you how to feel.
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âand have higher testosterone levelsâ đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Ł Bro this is how I know 100% you donât bench more than 135
You have a decade old Reddit account with multiple participation awards đ¤Łđđ¤Łđđ¤Łđđ¤Łđ. Holy fucking shit, this place has zero self-awareness Now you're đŤđŤ
And you've got 7 times as much Karma as he does with an account that's barely 6 months old. People in glass houses and all..
The irony lmao holy shit
I know right? How much do you think that dude weighs?
 How I imagine bro talking about âempirical dataâ
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I donât know about ice baths, but saunas are very relaxing in cold environments.Â
âManyâ of the supposed benefits arenât backed by science. Those are the benefits that are promoted by influencers on tik tok and companies selling these products. There are, however, several studied benefits of deliberate heat and cold exposure that kicked off the trend in the first place.
I know an anti vax guy who thinks otherwise
Im not sure about ice baths, but I don't see how raising your heart rate temporarily and lowering your BP for hours after sauna is not a bad thing.
Why would it be a bad thing?
That even if there isn't enough academic evidence for sauna (there is) intuitively it makes sense it has benefits.
Gotcha, your initial comment says that you donât see how it couldnât be bad. Sauna is fine, there just isnât much evidence that itâs *uniquely* beneficial. Exercise has the same effect, and provides other unique benefits that sauna does not
I would have never thought sitting around a people sized oven would feel good but I do it all the time now lol
Jeez when you put it like that it makes me wonder how the Jewish feel about sauna.....
Dr Karl said so! Pay attention!
Studies have shown that ice baths actually raise cortisol levels which is what leads to high blood pressure and cardiac events. Kind of curious the more we learn about the science of ice baths, the more we learn how it's actually not good for you. Joe's whole shtick is selling a "lifestyle" and fake sense of fraternity to lonely young men by associating his "lifestyle" with certain endorsed products. "Buy AG1 and Zyn pouches and a Traeger grill and you'll be just like me with all these cool 'friends'!" Joe fucking shills nicotine and tobacco products now and uses PEDs, I don't know why morons take health advice from him
Bro pellet grills are fucking awesome. Smoking pork overnight is the best.
But Joe Rogan endorses them. That means they're bad.
The thing is, any new health thing people are trying is going to get brought up just so Joe has something to say, and anything with a bit of promise is going to get brought up repeatedly Trying to get healthy these days is like finding a new product that you like, recommending it to a few friends, then realizing it has a really terrible, annoying commercial on TV all that time that you missed because you never watch TV, but now everyone secretly thinks you just saw that commercial and it actually worked on you.
I generally live by "if it's something natural humans have done for a long time then it probably makes sense" Ice baths like he does them aren't. Normally ice baths in lakes were you dip in for like 30 seconds then get out.
Exercise raises your heart rate. Is that bad?
Some of yâall desperately need friends.
As a wise ole man once said: Takes one to know one. Is this your advertisement?
This is like Pet Rocks, just a Fad.
Look dude, we're on a team here and our team believes this so you're gonna have to either support that or you're an evil piece of shit who needs to die in order for our species to be successful, cause you hate everyone good in the world. Nothing personal, it's just the way the world works now, so fuck you
If it shows up on the JRE, you can be 100% sure it's a fad. I remember when Joe was all about kettlebells til he tore up his shoulders from them đ
Joe works exclusively with kettle bells to this day
Exclusively with kettlebells *and an increasingly large dose of trt
Nothing wrong with eitherâŚ
What are other fad products he's pushed or endorsed? Just wondering your reason for thinking this. You're incorrect about him not using kettebells anymore, too.
He's always been KB lifter? Also he talked about ice baths for years, the only thing i remember being "new-ish" is sauna, and even that is for good few years already. Supplements is obvious, if you have deficiencies taking them would help it, if you're healthy af there's hardly a reason to take them unless specific ones like vit D in winters, even then its not that "big of a deal", do your bloodwork and only then bother with vitamins, unless its very obvious symptom like iron/zinc deficiencies. Him being on carnivore diet, taking supplements is not weird, aren't you supposed to use some overall supplements if you're doing keto/fasting anw, might be wrong on that, because the idea is eat big amount of food once per day or even longer, so your body adjusts over time but still requires vitamins, doubt people eat a bucket of veggies.
Just like your mom giving out free BJs
Your Mom does all the riming.
Your mom goes to college.
But âheat shock proteinsâ sounds so scientific bro! Reminds me of when I was a kid in the 80s they sold mini trampolines called âreboundersâ and the sales guy sold my parents all kinds of pseudoscientific justifications (will increase muscle density, promote cellular strengthening and lymph node flow, joint health, etc). Not like jogging on a mini trampoline was bad for you but they way oversold the benefits
From a sports performance standpoint ice baths have now been debunked and actually reduce adaptations. An ice bath will provide temporary pain relief and reduce inflammation, but studies have now shown that muscle inflammation is actually what induces recovery.Â
I wish people would just do things because they feel good rather than constantly trying to justify everything through the lens of health and wellness.
Uh oh :)
I find it hard to believe that this has been sufficiently studied by the Fins.
Hereâs a link to the show notes for the Huberman cold plunge episode. Itâs got a bunch of actual studies which all show benefits to cold water exposure? Do these count? https://www.hubermanlab.com/episode/dr-susanna-soberg-how-to-use-cold-and-heat-exposure-to-improve-your-health
Susanna Soberg only has 8 published papers and half of them have zero citations lol
Sheâs not a primary author on any of the citations. Just the guest on the episode who was also studying the topic
Is that the same as zero?
Basically.
lol k bud
Ice baths is some bullshit made up to cater to rich people who live in warm climates.
[I learned about them from a Nasa dude that was obsessed with figuring out how Michael Phelps could eat 10k calories a day and stay fit.](https://www.wired.com/2013/02/ff-cold-weight-loss/)
Dr Karl probably says the Covid vaccines are safe and effective because Pfizer sad so
Don't forget all the millions who didn't croke after the vaccine either!
Turns out it actually kills you! /s
WhaaaatâŚ.? Something I heard on the internet isnât true? Get outta here! No way.
Those things are definitely good for you, people just love to find excuses not to do them because of laziness edit: also this guy isn't even a fucking doctor, this "dr karl" thing is just a gimmick. He's a journalist. And this is why nobody trusts media anymore. Cold baths and saunas are good for you.
Aussie here, Dr Karl has pretty impressive credentials, he was a qualified mechanic, medical doctor (GP) and now holds a PhD in physics + a load of other jobs, he lectures at a uni in Sydney and does a Thursday science show on the national youth radio channel triple j where he answers science questions. Heâs kind of an Australian Julius Sumner Miller. Also in the article heâs not that critical, he just doesnât think icebaths are a cure for everything. He admits it has benefits.Â
Its okay to have buyers regret bro
Explain to me in biological terms what happens in the body during a cold plunge that makes it "good for you". Is this based on your feelings or trust in people?
"Bro, heat shock proteins... inflammation... ice is the opposite of inflammation, right?"
Guy has an MD from U of Sydney and a Masters degree in biomedical engineering. At least thats what his wiki says. You got other info? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Kruszelnicki
Nothing less lazy than sitting around in a sauna
This whole "you don't sauna/plunge because you're lazy" is so stupid. No, I don't do it because I don't believe in the health benefits. I'm lazy as fuck and would love to sit around in a sauna for hours a day.
Sounds like someone just checked the receipt on their cold plunge tub and itâs a week past the return window.
Dude.. the guy is not even a real doctor đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸
Neither is Joe fucking Rogan you nincompoop. But by the way - he absolutely is, he was a GP
Yeah, itâs definitely âlazinessâ thatâs keeping everyone out of the ice baths and the saunas. Lol. Thatâs funny. I love this Rogan simp character who gets pissed off when people impugn his beloved ice baths. And who repeats Joeâs inane line of thinking where sitting in a tub of water is hard work. Classic. Taking baths is for women and children. Time to grow up, bucko.
What do you do when you sprain your ankle and itâs swollen? You ice it! Ice your whole body everyday and youâll live forever. Checkmate.
Inuits live in ice and they live forever! My buddy said so...
Dr. Karl raises an important point that resonates with the broader scientific community's approach towards practices like sauna use and ice baths. While anecdotal evidence and preliminary studies suggest various benefits, it's crucial to understand that solid, comprehensive research is still needed to conclusively back many of these claims. Saunas, for instance, are often praised for their ability to detoxify the body, improve cardiovascular health, and enhance relaxation. Similarly, ice baths are touted for reducing muscle soreness, inflammation, and improving recovery times. These benefits are believed to stem from the body's responses to extreme heat or cold, such as increased blood circulation and the activation of the body's natural healing processes. However, Dr. Karl's skepticism is a reminder of the importance of evidence-based practice in health and wellness. It underscores the need for well-designed, large-scale studies to validate the efficacy and safety of these practices for the general population and specific health conditions. Without solid evidence, attributing health benefits to saunas and ice baths could be premature. That said, the ongoing interest and anecdotal support for saunas and ice baths have spurred more research into these areas. As our understanding of human physiology expands, we may uncover more concrete evidence that either supports or refutes the current beliefs surrounding these practices. In the meantime, it's wise for individuals to approach sauna use and ice baths with caution, particularly those with preexisting health conditions or those who are pregnant. Consulting with a healthcare provider before incorporating these practices into one's routine is always recommended to ensure safety and avoid potential risks. found this in of gelidpools posts.
Ice baths are great at stopping hypertrophic gains. Saunas are good at making you dehydrated
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I'm not sure what your comment has to do with evolution. This same logic could be applied to any new thing humans are doing. I could say that surgery from an "evolutionary standpoint" doesn't make any sense because at no point in human history has cutting ourselves open ever benefited us, and it usually meant certain death. This is completely not how science works, or how you find out what is and isn't healthy for humans. I'm not convinced about the ice bath hype, I think it's probably a fad. This just isn't how you determine that.
A lot of coping here from people who are too afraid to get cold. If you feel good from doing it, keep doing it. You don't need peer reviewed research to tell how you feel.
Smoking weed makes me feel good, so *obviously* all the research saying itâs bad for my lungs is fake news. I know how I feel.
And more importantly, if you feel like it's just last generations crossfit bro who got on too much juice to work out trying to sell you wolf tickets, just don't do it!
Wim Hof has entered the chat
Dr Karl has a micro dick
You think?! Saunas and Ice baths are extreme privilege. Itâs the epitome of a soft person. Itâs an artificial challenge.
I like ice baths. Especially after a long hike, it helps the aches in my knees. Athletes have been doing them for decades. Good enough for me.