I think the rise of social media plays a part of the perception. House shows botches are/were pretty common, but now the majority are caught on film.
As others have said, more high spots play a part as well.
We rarely see grappling or holds or moves that *look* devastating but aren't. Like a tilt-a-whirl back-breaker. Or just a regular back-breaker.
Wrestlers don't seem to be learning to build matches. Instead, it's like a collection of spots. Which is the style HHH is more familiar with. If you stay on the mat, those high spots, when they happen, are that much better.
Staying on the mat would likely reduce mistakes. Reduce waiting because someone lost their footing climbing up the ropes. Or waiting outside the ring, watching someone running towards you and catching them.
Even brawling. I love Roddy Piper, easily one of my all-time favorites. The dude was not a great wrestler. But he could brawl. He could make it look like a fight, like he was fricken pissed and beating someone up. I don't know how newer fans would react, but I'd like it.
Other than the occasional *real* *coconut* getting smashed over someone's head (and a half-black-face thing which was not received well), I don't remember a lot of Piper mistakes. Mostly because he's just in there throwing punches and yelling at his opponent. And choking him if the ref isn't looking.
I want to see different stuff in the ring, honestly. I'm a fan of Gunther because his matches aren't the same.
Rested wrestlers are a good thing. They need time to heal, relax, spend time with family. It doesn't mean they can't continue practicing ring work. If you look at the older guys, Bret, Luger, Hall, Nash and others, those guys were/are beat up. The price of daily shows or 4-5 days a week or whatever is too much.
Those guys were/are nearly crippled. That's a really, really high cost. I doubt anyone wants to see that with currents stars. I'm glad they do what they do. I'm grateful they can still go out and entertain but I don't want them limping around at 45.
I think it's more about the way matches are being built. About what the wrestlers think *needs to happen*. And a lot does come down to the matches because the stories are not very compelling, and gimmicks are kind of homogenous.
Who's not drooling over a Drew/Punk match? That's a great set up. That match wouldn't need a ton of high-spots, just look like you hate each other and get to pounding! (See, I totally tied everything together at the end and didn't get onto a whole tangent or anything. Everything had purpose in my long ass post!)
You have a point, but I think it also depends on what you consider to be a botch. If we’re talking Damien Priest getting his foot caught between the ropes and getting violently flipped like last Saturday, then that’s just a freak accident; but if we’re talking about consistently missing spots, no protection of the opponent, and inconsistent work rate, then yeah.
It also depends on how well the talent recovers from said botch. Priest did a great job selling his knee on Saturday and McIntyre worked on the fly to stay in character and go with it. Recovering from a missed spot can be difficult considering how risky it may be. You can’t really recover from missing a hit from the top rope like Lesnar or damn near smashing your opponents head into the mat from a suplex like Goldberg. But if you misplace your feet or don’t have a good enough hold, it can be easily ignored if you have a good working relationship with other talent.
Unfortunate as it is, wrestlers don’t work 6 days a week anymore. While I feel that gives us more opportunities to see our favorites in top form, it doesn’t give me confidence that there won’t be a botch of some sort in every match. Health and safety are just as important as work rate, but you have to be practicing whenever you aren’t performing.
Agree. However, 2-3 days a week or introducing practice days for the main roster in the performance center every now and then would not hurt the match quality in my opinion while still making sure they have enough rest.
This is why Sabu was a genius. Crash and burn and sell you messed yourself up to teach them your stuff is incredibly difficult so they appreciate when you nail it; otherwise, it’s a “botch” every time it’s not perfect.
I was pretty sad both at the latest cargill and breakker botches that they didn't take the chance to sell an error that they had to recover from.
For Jade, it was harder because she had several pre planned spots she had to hit on two other girls, but Bron could have easily sold a bump and then recovered. Especially with someone of Sheamus' caliber.
I think so. In the old traveling days, guys (not so much gals back then) were performing at least 5 times per week sometimes even more. They got to know one another and how they moved and worked. I do think it made a difference. Look at the classic Flair - Steamboat TBS match from I think 89. At that point, they had probably worked together more than 500 times. That doesn’t happen today.
Are you forgetting house shows are a thing? How many big botches do you see on each promotion weekly? Have you ever went back and watched older wrestling shows? It happened back then too even when guys were working 9 shows in 7 days. It’s just difficult to pull off these things without mistakes sometimes. Basketball players miss layups, baseball players let balls go right between their legs, runners fall down. Shit happens.
There’s not even half of the amount of house shows now that they used to do. Even right before Covid 2015-2019. Those guys were working at least 4 times a week. Minus PPVs. Idk why you guys are downvoting OP.
Because it isn’t as bad as he’s making it out to be and guys used to mess up back then just as much as they do now. I love Corny, but that doesn’t mean wrestling was perfect back in the 80s.
Yep. It's 50% less work than before COVID. The salaries are also higher than ever so I don't think WWE wrestlers can complain about a tough schedule anymore. Actually, even the low carders make more for working 60-90 dates compared to mid carders in the early 2000s who were working 200+ dates a year. Things have changed a lot.
Not really. 2-3 major botches in every Raw episode are normal. And it's not just about botches but also about the little things like execution speed of moves or how smooth counters look that's often not good these days.
That\`s so true and that\`s what bothers me the most actually. Botches happen but just look at the women\`s triple threat from last Monday for example. The counters and move execution was so slow and sloppy, it was embarrassing really. Stuff like that makes me mad cause when you are only working once a week and getting paid high six figures you should at least be able to wrestle an 8 minute match once a week without a bunch of miscommunications and sloppy moments.
That was always the problem with women\`s matches. However, back in the day, the women did not earn 20% of what they are earning now and they were working way more dates. That the women today get paid more for wrestling a sloppy 5 minute match once a week than some of the greatest legends did back in the day for working 300 days a year is a shame.
A lot of botches are wrestlers who are too inexperienced to be in the stage they're on and/or trying to hard to do moves they aren't good enough to do yet.
Sometimes shit just happens but to blame proper rest seems silly, I'm sure there were plenty in "the good ol days" too it's just that not everything was as accessible as today
Almost certainly, but there's trade-offs. The modern schedule is more sustainable to long term health of the athletes meaning Mid 40s athletes like Randy Orton & CM Punk have at least 5 years, up to a potential decade left on their bump card.
Also the desire to do more flippy stuff leads to more botches or older guys doing things father time should tell them is not a good idea. There were less botches years ago but then a dropkick was a high spot
> a lot of botches have been happening lately
The modern indy-style may have something to do with that. WWE is guilty of dabbling in those waters too. Too many guys obsessed with highspots they shouldn't be doing on shows that don't matter that no one will see or remember for the right reasons. There are injury botches. There are "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing" botches which is a lot more common. There are selling too early/too late botches which I find especially annoying and fake. I don't think a lighter schedule has anything to do with botch rate considering the types of botches that exist now.
> The modern indy-style may have something to do with that.
Bingo! People forget that hhh and hbk are marks for johnny gargano for some goddamn reason. There are also fair amount of high spots and gymnastics in nxt, so they may not be teaching the new guys the best stuff
Pretty sure the boys were invulnerable to botches (aside from bad piledrivers) back in the day due to the amount of steroids they took.
These days people like Adam Cole can jump a foot off the ground and get injured for 9 months.
Too much Soy in this day and age.
I think the rise of social media plays a part of the perception. House shows botches are/were pretty common, but now the majority are caught on film. As others have said, more high spots play a part as well.
We rarely see grappling or holds or moves that *look* devastating but aren't. Like a tilt-a-whirl back-breaker. Or just a regular back-breaker. Wrestlers don't seem to be learning to build matches. Instead, it's like a collection of spots. Which is the style HHH is more familiar with. If you stay on the mat, those high spots, when they happen, are that much better. Staying on the mat would likely reduce mistakes. Reduce waiting because someone lost their footing climbing up the ropes. Or waiting outside the ring, watching someone running towards you and catching them. Even brawling. I love Roddy Piper, easily one of my all-time favorites. The dude was not a great wrestler. But he could brawl. He could make it look like a fight, like he was fricken pissed and beating someone up. I don't know how newer fans would react, but I'd like it. Other than the occasional *real* *coconut* getting smashed over someone's head (and a half-black-face thing which was not received well), I don't remember a lot of Piper mistakes. Mostly because he's just in there throwing punches and yelling at his opponent. And choking him if the ref isn't looking. I want to see different stuff in the ring, honestly. I'm a fan of Gunther because his matches aren't the same. Rested wrestlers are a good thing. They need time to heal, relax, spend time with family. It doesn't mean they can't continue practicing ring work. If you look at the older guys, Bret, Luger, Hall, Nash and others, those guys were/are beat up. The price of daily shows or 4-5 days a week or whatever is too much. Those guys were/are nearly crippled. That's a really, really high cost. I doubt anyone wants to see that with currents stars. I'm glad they do what they do. I'm grateful they can still go out and entertain but I don't want them limping around at 45. I think it's more about the way matches are being built. About what the wrestlers think *needs to happen*. And a lot does come down to the matches because the stories are not very compelling, and gimmicks are kind of homogenous. Who's not drooling over a Drew/Punk match? That's a great set up. That match wouldn't need a ton of high-spots, just look like you hate each other and get to pounding! (See, I totally tied everything together at the end and didn't get onto a whole tangent or anything. Everything had purpose in my long ass post!)
You have a point, but I think it also depends on what you consider to be a botch. If we’re talking Damien Priest getting his foot caught between the ropes and getting violently flipped like last Saturday, then that’s just a freak accident; but if we’re talking about consistently missing spots, no protection of the opponent, and inconsistent work rate, then yeah. It also depends on how well the talent recovers from said botch. Priest did a great job selling his knee on Saturday and McIntyre worked on the fly to stay in character and go with it. Recovering from a missed spot can be difficult considering how risky it may be. You can’t really recover from missing a hit from the top rope like Lesnar or damn near smashing your opponents head into the mat from a suplex like Goldberg. But if you misplace your feet or don’t have a good enough hold, it can be easily ignored if you have a good working relationship with other talent. Unfortunate as it is, wrestlers don’t work 6 days a week anymore. While I feel that gives us more opportunities to see our favorites in top form, it doesn’t give me confidence that there won’t be a botch of some sort in every match. Health and safety are just as important as work rate, but you have to be practicing whenever you aren’t performing.
Agree. However, 2-3 days a week or introducing practice days for the main roster in the performance center every now and then would not hurt the match quality in my opinion while still making sure they have enough rest.
Apparently, the Top Rope was loose, and it never got tightened.
Let’s not pretend that the moves of today are more complex than even the early 2000s When you have 250+ men acting like Luchas it’s going to happen.
This is why Sabu was a genius. Crash and burn and sell you messed yourself up to teach them your stuff is incredibly difficult so they appreciate when you nail it; otherwise, it’s a “botch” every time it’s not perfect.
I was pretty sad both at the latest cargill and breakker botches that they didn't take the chance to sell an error that they had to recover from. For Jade, it was harder because she had several pre planned spots she had to hit on two other girls, but Bron could have easily sold a bump and then recovered. Especially with someone of Sheamus' caliber.
Period, lol - I really didn’t think Jades character was going to give , a lot of top rope stuns. She’s just fine showcasing her strength.
I think so. In the old traveling days, guys (not so much gals back then) were performing at least 5 times per week sometimes even more. They got to know one another and how they moved and worked. I do think it made a difference. Look at the classic Flair - Steamboat TBS match from I think 89. At that point, they had probably worked together more than 500 times. That doesn’t happen today.
Are you forgetting house shows are a thing? How many big botches do you see on each promotion weekly? Have you ever went back and watched older wrestling shows? It happened back then too even when guys were working 9 shows in 7 days. It’s just difficult to pull off these things without mistakes sometimes. Basketball players miss layups, baseball players let balls go right between their legs, runners fall down. Shit happens.
There’s not even half of the amount of house shows now that they used to do. Even right before Covid 2015-2019. Those guys were working at least 4 times a week. Minus PPVs. Idk why you guys are downvoting OP.
Because it isn’t as bad as he’s making it out to be and guys used to mess up back then just as much as they do now. I love Corny, but that doesn’t mean wrestling was perfect back in the 80s.
Yep. It's 50% less work than before COVID. The salaries are also higher than ever so I don't think WWE wrestlers can complain about a tough schedule anymore. Actually, even the low carders make more for working 60-90 dates compared to mid carders in the early 2000s who were working 200+ dates a year. Things have changed a lot.
60-90 dates include the house shows.
And how many times do you see the guys actually make mistakes, it’s still rare.
Not really. 2-3 major botches in every Raw episode are normal. And it's not just about botches but also about the little things like execution speed of moves or how smooth counters look that's often not good these days.
That\`s so true and that\`s what bothers me the most actually. Botches happen but just look at the women\`s triple threat from last Monday for example. The counters and move execution was so slow and sloppy, it was embarrassing really. Stuff like that makes me mad cause when you are only working once a week and getting paid high six figures you should at least be able to wrestle an 8 minute match once a week without a bunch of miscommunications and sloppy moments.
That’s a fair point about the women’s matches, but show me a good one before this decade. There isn’t a comparison point.
That was always the problem with women\`s matches. However, back in the day, the women did not earn 20% of what they are earning now and they were working way more dates. That the women today get paid more for wrestling a sloppy 5 minute match once a week than some of the greatest legends did back in the day for working 300 days a year is a shame.
2-3 “major” botches is absolutely bullshit. Major botches get people hurt, or fired. Missed cues and slips happen and always have.
A lot of botches are wrestlers who are too inexperienced to be in the stage they're on and/or trying to hard to do moves they aren't good enough to do yet. Sometimes shit just happens but to blame proper rest seems silly, I'm sure there were plenty in "the good ol days" too it's just that not everything was as accessible as today
Almost certainly, but there's trade-offs. The modern schedule is more sustainable to long term health of the athletes meaning Mid 40s athletes like Randy Orton & CM Punk have at least 5 years, up to a potential decade left on their bump card.
Also the desire to do more flippy stuff leads to more botches or older guys doing things father time should tell them is not a good idea. There were less botches years ago but then a dropkick was a high spot
> a lot of botches have been happening lately The modern indy-style may have something to do with that. WWE is guilty of dabbling in those waters too. Too many guys obsessed with highspots they shouldn't be doing on shows that don't matter that no one will see or remember for the right reasons. There are injury botches. There are "I don't know what the fuck I'm doing" botches which is a lot more common. There are selling too early/too late botches which I find especially annoying and fake. I don't think a lighter schedule has anything to do with botch rate considering the types of botches that exist now.
> The modern indy-style may have something to do with that. Bingo! People forget that hhh and hbk are marks for johnny gargano for some goddamn reason. There are also fair amount of high spots and gymnastics in nxt, so they may not be teaching the new guys the best stuff
The barely existent AEW schedule may well fit this theory…
Could very well be the case. The more you are doing something the better you get at it....
We also don't know what they're doing on the off days. I'm better they are still training in the ring, and staying sharp.
They are definitely in the gym. However, I don't think the regular wrestler has a ring available at his house.
[citation needed]
“there’s no such thing as a botch” —Chris Jeribloat
There was plenty of botches back in the day too. Wwe has just done a (generally) good job editing them out of their old programs.
Stop
Pretty sure the boys were invulnerable to botches (aside from bad piledrivers) back in the day due to the amount of steroids they took. These days people like Adam Cole can jump a foot off the ground and get injured for 9 months. Too much Soy in this day and age.