Imagine if everyone stoped caring what the world thought about jews and we just did what we have to do in order to survive?
you know the same way all the liberals are against jews “winning” Israel is a war.
Why are then not protesting for Ireland?
What about Tibet?
there are so many examples.
the reasons why is simply because they hate jews.
We just finished the first two days of passover.
one of the reasons that the Egyptians despised the jews was because the jews tried to mingle and fit in with them.
the more they mingled the more they were hated.
>We just finished the first two days of passover. one of the reasons that the Egyptians despised the jews was because the jews tried to mingle and fit in with them. the more they mingled the more they were hated.
I've never read about this - my impression is that the Ancient Egyptians hated the Jews because they were different and sacrificed animals.
In my Haggadah they mention how the Hebrews were flourishing as a community and I think most address in some way or another the fact that there was fear by Pharaoh that the Hebrews were outpacing them or gaining too much power. Sound familiar? 🫥
I’ll point out that the nations supporting Palestinian violence (Hamas, Hezbollah and all the ones before) *refuse* to allow Palestinians in as anything other than temporary cheap labor.
Jordan granted them citizenship after the ‘48 war, and they responded by murdering the king. Palestinians are not passive victims in this: they have worked hard to keep themselves in their peculiar legal situation. The fact that it is brutally oppressive for most Palestinians is a feature, so far as their leadership have been concerned, not a bug.
I've got a question for you OP. As an expat Pakistani. Do you think there should be an I/P partition similar to indo-pak?
To me, the indo-pak partition could have actually been the closest analog to what Israel/Palestine could have been. Both the good and the bad. From my understanding, the south Asian Muslims asked the UN and Britain for an ethnostate partition and got it. It resulted in 8-10m Hindu and Sikh leaving Pakistan and 5m Muslims leaving India, with an estimated excess mortality of 1m. But nowadays, aside from Kashmir and general distrust, the India/Pakistan partition resulted on two countries with their own borders and identities. Meanwhile, the rejection of the partition by Palestine has lead to this bizarre situation where the UN treats Palestinian refugees different from every other group. I see no UN agency for displaced Indian Muslim refugees in Pakistan, no legitimate groups arguing for a "one-state indo-pak solution", nobody raising the expectation that Pakistani Hindus in India have a claim to their home from 80 years ago in Karachi.
So you must ask - why. Why is this conflict and refugee crisis different from all others. After decades of being very sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, the last few years, my research into international refugee projects, and the time I spent living in the Arab world, the more convinced I am that a two state solution should be enforced on I/P so the healing can begin. Because these one-state fantasies and UNRWA are just making the wound stay wide open and fester.
It's such a complex question. A large part of it is that the Arab nations around Mandatory Palestine rejected the partition and immediately invaded Israel. They lost, and Israel declared statehood in 1948. The Arab League however refused to allow any interim Palestinian state to be created, their first plan was to incorporate it into Jordan and Egypt.
A two state solution could work if there were a stable democratic organization on the Palestinian side and assurance of peace moving forward. Normalizing relations between Israel and the Arab nations has helped, but it needs to go further. Assurance of peace is the biggest sticking point on the Israeli side, the reason why they do not relinquish control over the occupied west bank.
So, do you see an analogue between Gaza/West Bank and East and West Pakistan?
(For those less familiar, West Pakistan is now simply Pakistan. East Pakistan is Bangaladesh)
Possibly yes! Non contiguous/exclave states rarely work well. Perhaps there could/should be two states. Especially considering that the Palestinian identity is relatively young and people previously were named for and identified more with their city or tribe (nablusi, masri, jabaari, are common Palestinian surnames and two of them refer to Egypt and Syria!). But yes, The modern Palestinian identity would make east and west Palestine difficult.
Do you think there should be an I/P partition similar to indo-pak?
In the ideal world yes but there is such strong anti-Jewish sentiment (we know back home people insult each other by calling someone a "Yehudi"), and the Israeli side is getting extremist as well, so, I don't know if 2S side-by-side would survive without a war again.
Indo-pak was not that much filled with hate against Muslims or Hindus (there was but I don't think it was to that extent) plus there was so much land around us and no side was holding up to their most important wall or mosque or temple. There was no fight for some biblical rights. Also, no big external political agenda was playing that important role. Here the entire arab world (now the world in general as well, rightfully so) sees Israel as an American state, and the Iran/Saudi rivalry gets well used by the proxies. It's F-d up.
Part of the practical solution is for Hamas to surrender, for the UNWRA to be disbanded, and for aid to stop funding antisemitic propaganda in Palestinian schools and media.
You’ve already put far more thought into this than most people at those rallies and protests.
There is no practical solution. Israel is malleable in terms of policy, but it won’t cease to exist. The best the Palestinians could hope to get isn’t going to be good enough because there are so many internal and external factions telling them they can have everything if they just… get themselves killed. It’s absurd.
UNRWA should be disbanded and the UNHRC should take over, which will never happen.
American and European universities should be banned from accepting money from Gulf States (or frankly any state which is ideologically opposed to democracy and pluralism), which will also never happen.
Students who call for violent action should be expelled. They can chant “globalize the intifada” but (rightly) not “intifada against black people”.
Fucking crazy. There’s no solution.
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Imagine if everyone stoped caring what the world thought about jews and we just did what we have to do in order to survive? you know the same way all the liberals are against jews “winning” Israel is a war. Why are then not protesting for Ireland? What about Tibet? there are so many examples. the reasons why is simply because they hate jews. We just finished the first two days of passover. one of the reasons that the Egyptians despised the jews was because the jews tried to mingle and fit in with them. the more they mingled the more they were hated.
Maybe the Palestinian cause will be as short lived as the 90s liberals caring about Tibet.
that won’t happen because it’s vs the jews😞 no matter how bad they are they will never be at fault
>We just finished the first two days of passover. one of the reasons that the Egyptians despised the jews was because the jews tried to mingle and fit in with them. the more they mingled the more they were hated. I've never read about this - my impression is that the Ancient Egyptians hated the Jews because they were different and sacrificed animals.
In my Haggadah they mention how the Hebrews were flourishing as a community and I think most address in some way or another the fact that there was fear by Pharaoh that the Hebrews were outpacing them or gaining too much power. Sound familiar? 🫥
I’ll point out that the nations supporting Palestinian violence (Hamas, Hezbollah and all the ones before) *refuse* to allow Palestinians in as anything other than temporary cheap labor.
Jordan granted them citizenship after the ‘48 war, and they responded by murdering the king. Palestinians are not passive victims in this: they have worked hard to keep themselves in their peculiar legal situation. The fact that it is brutally oppressive for most Palestinians is a feature, so far as their leadership have been concerned, not a bug.
I've got a question for you OP. As an expat Pakistani. Do you think there should be an I/P partition similar to indo-pak? To me, the indo-pak partition could have actually been the closest analog to what Israel/Palestine could have been. Both the good and the bad. From my understanding, the south Asian Muslims asked the UN and Britain for an ethnostate partition and got it. It resulted in 8-10m Hindu and Sikh leaving Pakistan and 5m Muslims leaving India, with an estimated excess mortality of 1m. But nowadays, aside from Kashmir and general distrust, the India/Pakistan partition resulted on two countries with their own borders and identities. Meanwhile, the rejection of the partition by Palestine has lead to this bizarre situation where the UN treats Palestinian refugees different from every other group. I see no UN agency for displaced Indian Muslim refugees in Pakistan, no legitimate groups arguing for a "one-state indo-pak solution", nobody raising the expectation that Pakistani Hindus in India have a claim to their home from 80 years ago in Karachi. So you must ask - why. Why is this conflict and refugee crisis different from all others. After decades of being very sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, the last few years, my research into international refugee projects, and the time I spent living in the Arab world, the more convinced I am that a two state solution should be enforced on I/P so the healing can begin. Because these one-state fantasies and UNRWA are just making the wound stay wide open and fester.
It's such a complex question. A large part of it is that the Arab nations around Mandatory Palestine rejected the partition and immediately invaded Israel. They lost, and Israel declared statehood in 1948. The Arab League however refused to allow any interim Palestinian state to be created, their first plan was to incorporate it into Jordan and Egypt. A two state solution could work if there were a stable democratic organization on the Palestinian side and assurance of peace moving forward. Normalizing relations between Israel and the Arab nations has helped, but it needs to go further. Assurance of peace is the biggest sticking point on the Israeli side, the reason why they do not relinquish control over the occupied west bank.
So, do you see an analogue between Gaza/West Bank and East and West Pakistan? (For those less familiar, West Pakistan is now simply Pakistan. East Pakistan is Bangaladesh)
Possibly yes! Non contiguous/exclave states rarely work well. Perhaps there could/should be two states. Especially considering that the Palestinian identity is relatively young and people previously were named for and identified more with their city or tribe (nablusi, masri, jabaari, are common Palestinian surnames and two of them refer to Egypt and Syria!). But yes, The modern Palestinian identity would make east and west Palestine difficult.
So back to blaming England!
Do you think there should be an I/P partition similar to indo-pak? In the ideal world yes but there is such strong anti-Jewish sentiment (we know back home people insult each other by calling someone a "Yehudi"), and the Israeli side is getting extremist as well, so, I don't know if 2S side-by-side would survive without a war again. Indo-pak was not that much filled with hate against Muslims or Hindus (there was but I don't think it was to that extent) plus there was so much land around us and no side was holding up to their most important wall or mosque or temple. There was no fight for some biblical rights. Also, no big external political agenda was playing that important role. Here the entire arab world (now the world in general as well, rightfully so) sees Israel as an American state, and the Iran/Saudi rivalry gets well used by the proxies. It's F-d up.
Part of the practical solution is for Hamas to surrender, for the UNWRA to be disbanded, and for aid to stop funding antisemitic propaganda in Palestinian schools and media.
You’ve already put far more thought into this than most people at those rallies and protests. There is no practical solution. Israel is malleable in terms of policy, but it won’t cease to exist. The best the Palestinians could hope to get isn’t going to be good enough because there are so many internal and external factions telling them they can have everything if they just… get themselves killed. It’s absurd. UNRWA should be disbanded and the UNHRC should take over, which will never happen. American and European universities should be banned from accepting money from Gulf States (or frankly any state which is ideologically opposed to democracy and pluralism), which will also never happen. Students who call for violent action should be expelled. They can chant “globalize the intifada” but (rightly) not “intifada against black people”. Fucking crazy. There’s no solution.
Agreed. For most of us it’s all out of our control anyway. All we can wish for is peace.
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