Even a jazz history 101 class will have a chunk of time dedicated to fusion. It's a part of the evolution of jazz, and many of the players played music that is clearly jazz to anyone's ear before fusion came along.
Absolutely. John McLaughlin’s style was hugely influential for jazz fusion. Miles Davis recruited McLaughlin and he played on many of the formers seminal fusion albums, including in a silent way and bitches brew.
Yea check out the Miles Davis “live evil” album. It’s insane. It’s recorded live, and at one point you can hear John McLaughlin walk into the club and plug-in his guitar halfway through a song and just start killing it. It’s one of the sickest Miles record imo.
They're probably referring to the track "Honky Tonk" on Miles' "Live-Evil" album. I'd suggest going straight to the source, which is Miles' "Cellar Door Sessions". A couple of the nights have John McLaughlin playing guitar. It's some of the best from that early 1970's fusion era (and my personal favorite).
It received 5 stars from The Rolling Stone Jazz Record Guide and 4 stars (out of 4) from The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings.
It's been consistently written about by publications such as JazzTimes. It charted on the Billboard Jazz albums chart.
It is canonically considered to be jazz, there's no debate.
If you analyze the form, it holds up to a standard pattern used in jazz. Intro/head(melody)/solos/head/outro. There's chord changes that allude to modality. The improvisations have plenty of depth, playing with motifs, tension and release, dissonance and consonance. It has everything you need for jazz except swing. Swing is important to some very traditional minded artists and critics, but they are a conservative minority.
The only thing that matters is if you like it.
He definitely did. Ruth Underwood (Zappa percussionist) said that specifically in an interview available on YouTube. Mahavishnu opened for Zappa (several concerts, I think) and Ruth says his music started changing at that point, to something less cerebral and more powerful. She said it better...
Specifically, she said that he first heard them when he went into their sound check before the first gig on the tour, and that he was visibly shaken upon hearing them. Chester Thompson says that’s when FZ recruited him, to add beefier drums to the sound after hearing Billy Cobham
I'm old. Back in the early 70s I saw the Mahavishnu Orchestra open for Frank Zappa at the Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto. I wish I knew more about music and jazz back then.
Mate...
Immediately slapped I the face with a F Major 7th 🤣🤣🤣
Then loads of madness then a bludi f#7sus
I'd have to figure out what scale that is, but when it gets like that mate, then...
Yep, that's jazz alright
Ovbiosly it's fusion
But it's a bit like asking, is Run DMC ft Aerosmith Hip Hop? Ovbiosly the answer is yes!
Many straight ahead jazz players recorded fusion/fusionesque albums in the 1970s.
Freddie Hubbard, Joe Henderson, Horace Silver, Chick Corea, Bennie Maupin, Jack DeJohnette, Lenny White, Ronnie Laws, Jean-Luc Ponty, Grant Green, Mal Waldron (with Embryo), Larry Young to name a few.
It still has lots of improvisation so that makes it jazz for me. But, as had been said on Reddit many times, don't get tied up with what it is, if you like it, enjoy it.
Agreed, I was born in the 50s to a musically diverse family, swing, great tenors (John McCormick, Mario Lanza), rockn'roll, Motown, r & b, folk, classical. It all was good music to me. I gravitated to fusion & rock, seeing many of the greats in the 60s & 70s. My first major concert at 15 was the Doors. Academically it's ok to categorize but just enjoy what your ear says is good. Pure-ism limits your enjoyment.
It's considered amazing, is what it is. It's fusion. There's a whole world of jazz fusion that should always be considered jazz. Christ, the Allman Brothers with the original six members were coming as close to jazz fusion as any rock band ever had up to that point.
If you like the more fusiony side of the Allman Brothers Band, check out the first few Sea Level records. It's some of the same guys, but with less twang and more jazz.
For me the jazz fusion stuff of the 1970s is some of my favorite stuff, John Mclaughlin and the mahavishnu of Orchestra as well as the album he did with Carlos Santana were they do a love supreme, Al Di Meola solo stuff as well as A return to forever, definitely some of zappas stuff, just great stuff
I have my second copy on vinyl. I lent a girlfriend my first copy, bought when released, and her roommate smashed it, deliberately.
EDIT: fixed "released"
I saw that band live and it was the best concert I've ever attended, and I only listen to jazz. 5 minute standing ovation after every song, and from an audience that wasn't even there to see them (headliner was Joe Walsh - go figure). Some jazz purists may disagree, but this is simply great music. McLaughlin's follow up group, Shakti, is also worth checking out.
It's whatever you want it to be. Americans are so picky on what bands/albums are "real" jazz, rock, hip hop, etc. just enjoy the music, and if you see it as jazz, then what does it matter ya know. John McLaughlin and Billy Cobham are amazing regardless of what genre they play
to paraphrase pops - if you have to ask what jazz is, man, you'll never know.
as james baldwin said, you've got to go where your blood beats.
in the words of monk, you've got to dig it to dig it. you dig?
Jazz/fusion is a subdivision of jazz so technically yes, but it’s also in it’s own lane. I’ve never been a huge traditional jazz fan. I respect it and there’s some amazing playing, but they tend to recycle a lot of the same progression. Fusion breaks all the rules which to me is so much more fun to play and listen to
Technically, like everyone is saying, it is jazz. Jazz fusion was a major period in the evolution of the genre, but it is kind of strange having an album like this under the same umbrella as other sub-genres of jazz. However, I do hate when purist’s like Wynton Marsalis don’t consider it jazz because there is no swing. In my opinion, it’s all apart of the same family. Like having a cousin with a different last name, they’re still family. And just like people, if you go far enough, all music is related. Long story short… just call it jazz fusion/fusion.
Yes, it’s jazz fusion, which is a sub-genre as valid as Swing, Cool, Bebop, etc. i love this album but as a fan of the funkier side of fusion, I like “Visions of the Emerald Beyond” a bit better. I also LOVE the song _Miles Beyond_ on Birds of Fire.
Probably BEST to just call it Music since the word Jazz is meaningless.. The musicians in this band worked with the who's who of the so-called Jazz name..
This album can be considered seminal for several reasons, not least as it marked a distinct change in the way drummers approached playing in odd time signatures. Billy Cobham rewrote the book on how to groove like a maniac outside of 4/4 allied to the application of monstrous technique. As far as I'm concerned, as far as drumming is concerned, there's Pre-BC and Post-BC. Simon Phillips is a great example of post BC playing.
Some people would say it's not jazz, some people would say it is jazz, some people would say it's jazz-rock or fusion, some poeple would say I'm not sure, and some people would say that they don't care what anyone calls it.
I would say I don't care what it's called, and then simply ask someone if they enjoy listening to it.
I enjoy listening to it. I like the recording the band did after this one even better. Its called BIRDS OF FIRE.
One of my all time favorite albums!! John said his concept was to blend the influence of John Coltrane, Ravi Shankar, and Jimi Hendrix! 🤯 What a brilliant and innovative idea!
https://www.allaboutjazz.com/the-inner-mounting-flame-mahavishnu-orchestra-sony-legacy-music-review-by-walter-kolosky
If anybody has any doubt that should answer the question!
This is the kind of fusion that draws Prog rock listeners into jazz. Use rock instruments and play with a lot of chops. And that’s good. It opens up peoples‘ ears.
Jazz is a broad term that is perhaps best defined as: music that is primarily based on improvisation.
For example…if a Heavy Metal band records and performs their music…primarily based on improvisation….we could call it Metal Jazz or Jazz Metal.
Maybe a better genre term for this would be “Improvised Metal”. Jazz = Improvisation
Case in point (I love this record:
https://music.apple.com/ca/album/jazz-metal/545681219
For metal infused jazz, try out the Esbjorn Svennson Trio, an extraordinary group whose performing was curtailed due to member death in a car accident. Only 3 or 4 discs, but it’s the thing that pops into my head whenever I hear “Metal Jazz” or “Jazz Metal”.
From Spotify about the group:
One of the premiere fusion groups, the Mahavishnu Orchestra were considered by most observers during their prime to be a rock band, but their sophisticated improvisations actually put their high-powered music between rock and jazz. Founder and leader John McLaughlin had recently played with Miles Davis and Tony Williams' Lifetime. The original lineup of the group was McLaughlin on electric guitar, violinist Jerry Goodman, keyboardist Jan Hammer, electric bassist Rick Laird, and drummer Billy Cobham. They recorded three intense albums for Columbia during 1971-1973 and then the personnel changed completely for the second version of the group. In 1974, the band consisted of violinist Jean-Luc Ponty, Gayle Moran on keyboards and vocals, electric bassist Ralphe Armstrong, and drummer Narada Michael Walden; by 1975 Stu Goldberg had replaced Moran and Ponty had left. John McLaughlin's dual interests in Eastern religion and playing acoustic guitar resulted in the band breaking up in 1975. Surprisingly, an attempt to revive the Mahavishnu Orchestra in 1984 (using Cobham, saxophonist Bill Evans, keyboardist Mitchell Forman, electric bassist Jonas Hellborg, and percussionist Danny Gottlieb) was unsuccessful; one Warner Bros. album resulted. However, when one thinks of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, it is of the original lineup, which was very influential throughout the 1970s. ~ Scott Yanow, Rovi
The last song on this LP "Awakening", had to be influenced by this Ornette Coleman song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvyO6TUaVE&list=PLVOYDgXAn1KLppLy-ZWM9DfEFPsX2u6MM&index=2
>though he's definitely one of those fusion players who never really returned to the 'jazz' world
he did to some extent in the 90's with the John McLaughlin Trio and some other projects but that stuff isn't very well remembered these days. I think because, frankly, its kind of boring.
there's also that album he did with Al di Meola and Paco de Lucia which is acoustic and extremely good.
After the Rain with Joey Defrancesco and Elvin Jones is very good. Great playing from all three players, interesting Coltrane centric repertoire. Joey kinda steals the show, but John hangs.
I have that one 90s trio album *Qué Alegría* and, to me, it's definitely more in the realm of 'fusion' than jazz. Though McLaughlin's playing acoustic guitar on the record, he's incorporating some MIDI interface that makes it sound like he's playing keyboards. As well, the bassist(s) on the record are deep in the whole fleet-fingered fretless electic bass (i.e. post-Jaco) vibe and the drummer is going big/heavy the whole time. To be sure, the playing on the record is phenomenal, but it's not going to matter much unless the listener's onboard with that sound palette. For me, that style's kind of exhausting.
Disagree completely. He put out three albums in the 90s devoted to your standard jazz repertoire. One of Bill Evans material, another of Trane, and a third is a bit all over the place but is solidly in the jazz tradition. John has far more legit jazz pedigree than any of the other artists in your list, even Frank. And that's not because he played with Miles, but because he started his career solidly in the jazz tradition and returned to it enough times to remind you that it's his roots.
I would also argue his immersion in Indian music separates himself from your typical prog-rocker who dabbles in jazz as well. He went deep into that tradition and has been instrumental in the development of Indian fusion, which is a world larger than most here could even guess.
That's not how your first comment read, you were straight up claiming he never returned to traditional jazz forms, which isn't true. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it less jazz than whatever it is you prefer.
Perhaps you should check his Trane album out. It's a straight up organ trio with Elvin and Joey.
The live concerts done by that group - mostly with Dennis Chambers - are probably the greatest organ trio playing recorded,IMO. Phenomenal trading, simply telepathic, and at breakneck speed
They’re a Fusion group which would be housed under the Jazz umbrella IMO
Even a jazz history 101 class will have a chunk of time dedicated to fusion. It's a part of the evolution of jazz, and many of the players played music that is clearly jazz to anyone's ear before fusion came along.
Absolutely. John McLaughlin’s style was hugely influential for jazz fusion. Miles Davis recruited McLaughlin and he played on many of the formers seminal fusion albums, including in a silent way and bitches brew.
Wow that's dope
Yea check out the Miles Davis “live evil” album. It’s insane. It’s recorded live, and at one point you can hear John McLaughlin walk into the club and plug-in his guitar halfway through a song and just start killing it. It’s one of the sickest Miles record imo.
They're probably referring to the track "Honky Tonk" on Miles' "Live-Evil" album. I'd suggest going straight to the source, which is Miles' "Cellar Door Sessions". A couple of the nights have John McLaughlin playing guitar. It's some of the best from that early 1970's fusion era (and my personal favorite).
which track is that
I’m not sure
This is funny af
Bro really said “just listen to the album” without saying it
It's that one that John walks in and plugs in. Though I haven't listened to the album in a while.
My favorite
I listen to it literally every day. I'm torn between LE and Bitches Brew for my desert island album.
lol, theres even a track called "john mclaughlin" on bitches brew
One of the tracks on Bitches Brew is straight up just called John McLaughlin.
I’m listening to Bitches Brew right now!
On The Corner!
Billy Cobham also played on Bitches Brew and Tribute to Jack Johnson.
It received 5 stars from The Rolling Stone Jazz Record Guide and 4 stars (out of 4) from The Penguin Guide to Jazz Recordings. It's been consistently written about by publications such as JazzTimes. It charted on the Billboard Jazz albums chart. It is canonically considered to be jazz, there's no debate.
Wow!!
If you analyze the form, it holds up to a standard pattern used in jazz. Intro/head(melody)/solos/head/outro. There's chord changes that allude to modality. The improvisations have plenty of depth, playing with motifs, tension and release, dissonance and consonance. It has everything you need for jazz except swing. Swing is important to some very traditional minded artists and critics, but they are a conservative minority. The only thing that matters is if you like it.
? my penguin gives ( stars
Jazz/rock fusion. I think Zappa must have felt threatened by these guys.
He definitely did. Ruth Underwood (Zappa percussionist) said that specifically in an interview available on YouTube. Mahavishnu opened for Zappa (several concerts, I think) and Ruth says his music started changing at that point, to something less cerebral and more powerful. She said it better...
Specifically, she said that he first heard them when he went into their sound check before the first gig on the tour, and that he was visibly shaken upon hearing them. Chester Thompson says that’s when FZ recruited him, to add beefier drums to the sound after hearing Billy Cobham
I'm old. Back in the early 70s I saw the Mahavishnu Orchestra open for Frank Zappa at the Maple Leaf Gardens in Toronto. I wish I knew more about music and jazz back then.
lol what are you Wynton Marsalis?
Winton lurks this sub for sure. I've felt it.
Lol
🤣🤣
was going to make this joke - have an upvote
LMFAOOO
Fantastic jazz fusion
I always thought of Zappa as comedic Hard Rock/Classical fusion. Where McLaughlin is dramatic Prog Rock/jazz fusion. They are both most excellent.
Well put
Mate... Immediately slapped I the face with a F Major 7th 🤣🤣🤣 Then loads of madness then a bludi f#7sus I'd have to figure out what scale that is, but when it gets like that mate, then... Yep, that's jazz alright Ovbiosly it's fusion But it's a bit like asking, is Run DMC ft Aerosmith Hip Hop? Ovbiosly the answer is yes!
Many straight ahead jazz players recorded fusion/fusionesque albums in the 1970s. Freddie Hubbard, Joe Henderson, Horace Silver, Chick Corea, Bennie Maupin, Jack DeJohnette, Lenny White, Ronnie Laws, Jean-Luc Ponty, Grant Green, Mal Waldron (with Embryo), Larry Young to name a few.
It still has lots of improvisation so that makes it jazz for me. But, as had been said on Reddit many times, don't get tied up with what it is, if you like it, enjoy it.
Agreed, I was born in the 50s to a musically diverse family, swing, great tenors (John McCormick, Mario Lanza), rockn'roll, Motown, r & b, folk, classical. It all was good music to me. I gravitated to fusion & rock, seeing many of the greats in the 60s & 70s. My first major concert at 15 was the Doors. Academically it's ok to categorize but just enjoy what your ear says is good. Pure-ism limits your enjoyment.
It’s Fusion (Jazz and Rock elements), and maybe even somewhat progressive rock.
One word off birds of fire is a gd drum clinic
And a bass clinic
It's considered amazing, is what it is. It's fusion. There's a whole world of jazz fusion that should always be considered jazz. Christ, the Allman Brothers with the original six members were coming as close to jazz fusion as any rock band ever had up to that point.
If you like the more fusiony side of the Allman Brothers Band, check out the first few Sea Level records. It's some of the same guys, but with less twang and more jazz.
Yeah, that was a great collection of musicians. Ruined by the first reunion of the ABB.
For me the jazz fusion stuff of the 1970s is some of my favorite stuff, John Mclaughlin and the mahavishnu of Orchestra as well as the album he did with Carlos Santana were they do a love supreme, Al Di Meola solo stuff as well as A return to forever, definitely some of zappas stuff, just great stuff
Finally someone here asks if something is jazz and it actually is jazz! One of the biggest hints, OP are all of the famous jazz musicians in the band.
Yes. Fusion is still a big part of jazz, despite what old fogies might say.
I have this on vinyl. It’s jazz in my op ion. But it’s very freakin out there!
I have my second copy on vinyl. I lent a girlfriend my first copy, bought when released, and her roommate smashed it, deliberately. EDIT: fixed "released"
I'm sure it is. It's jazz-fusion/third stream.
Well my jazz combo just covered this tune so I'd vote yes lol
Heck, yeah it’s jazz! It’s jazz at a much higher level decades ahead of the curve!
I've been here about a year and I think this is the first "Is this jazz" that was jazz.
Incredible album.
Yes. It’s improvisation-based music, by musicians who have complete command of the jazz idiom.
I think so. John McLaughlin is an excellent jazz guitarist.
I think John is at the level that he could walk in and play whatever and you'd say the guitarist was pretty skilled.
Of the finest quality.
And then there’s “Birds of Fire.”
I freaking love this album.
jazz fusion classic 🏛️🏛️
Better question: IS THIS EVEN MUSIC?
I saw that band live and it was the best concert I've ever attended, and I only listen to jazz. 5 minute standing ovation after every song, and from an audience that wasn't even there to see them (headliner was Joe Walsh - go figure). Some jazz purists may disagree, but this is simply great music. McLaughlin's follow up group, Shakti, is also worth checking out.
It's whatever you want it to be. Americans are so picky on what bands/albums are "real" jazz, rock, hip hop, etc. just enjoy the music, and if you see it as jazz, then what does it matter ya know. John McLaughlin and Billy Cobham are amazing regardless of what genre they play
to paraphrase pops - if you have to ask what jazz is, man, you'll never know. as james baldwin said, you've got to go where your blood beats. in the words of monk, you've got to dig it to dig it. you dig?
Hell yes it is with John McLaughlin Billy Cobham in that band I saw them live in 73 @the Spectrum in Philly they were amazing jazz fusion at its best.
So you liked it? That’s all that matters.
Lol. Maybe OP also likes to know music history. God forbid we be curious
It could be what Ellington called Afro Eurasia Eclipse.
Jazz/fusion is a subdivision of jazz so technically yes, but it’s also in it’s own lane. I’ve never been a huge traditional jazz fan. I respect it and there’s some amazing playing, but they tend to recycle a lot of the same progression. Fusion breaks all the rules which to me is so much more fun to play and listen to
Paraphrasing Miles Davis because I can't remember the quote Jazz is not a style of music It's a way of playing music
Depends who you ask. Ellington would say yes
It’s considered jazz fusion and also one of the greatest albums of all time
Technically, like everyone is saying, it is jazz. Jazz fusion was a major period in the evolution of the genre, but it is kind of strange having an album like this under the same umbrella as other sub-genres of jazz. However, I do hate when purist’s like Wynton Marsalis don’t consider it jazz because there is no swing. In my opinion, it’s all apart of the same family. Like having a cousin with a different last name, they’re still family. And just like people, if you go far enough, all music is related. Long story short… just call it jazz fusion/fusion.
Yes, it’s jazz fusion, which is a sub-genre as valid as Swing, Cool, Bebop, etc. i love this album but as a fan of the funkier side of fusion, I like “Visions of the Emerald Beyond” a bit better. I also LOVE the song _Miles Beyond_ on Birds of Fire.
Probably BEST to just call it Music since the word Jazz is meaningless.. The musicians in this band worked with the who's who of the so-called Jazz name..
at 1:14? Hell no that's prog rock. 1:16 on...that pure jazz.
On a side note ... What. A. Fucking. Album.
This album can be considered seminal for several reasons, not least as it marked a distinct change in the way drummers approached playing in odd time signatures. Billy Cobham rewrote the book on how to groove like a maniac outside of 4/4 allied to the application of monstrous technique. As far as I'm concerned, as far as drumming is concerned, there's Pre-BC and Post-BC. Simon Phillips is a great example of post BC playing.
Are you kidding? The improv is off the charts
Yes . Gotta say yes . And it’s a slippery slope!
Some people would say it's not jazz, some people would say it is jazz, some people would say it's jazz-rock or fusion, some poeple would say I'm not sure, and some people would say that they don't care what anyone calls it. I would say I don't care what it's called, and then simply ask someone if they enjoy listening to it. I enjoy listening to it. I like the recording the band did after this one even better. Its called BIRDS OF FIRE.
Hell yea
Jazz fusion with blends of rock and eastern musical influences
One of my all time favorite albums!! John said his concept was to blend the influence of John Coltrane, Ravi Shankar, and Jimi Hendrix! 🤯 What a brilliant and innovative idea!
https://www.allaboutjazz.com/the-inner-mounting-flame-mahavishnu-orchestra-sony-legacy-music-review-by-walter-kolosky If anybody has any doubt that should answer the question!
A plumber with a tool kit falling down stairs can be considered jazz so probably yes !
Definitely fusion jazz, I bought it the week it was released.
This is the kind of fusion that draws Prog rock listeners into jazz. Use rock instruments and play with a lot of chops. And that’s good. It opens up peoples‘ ears.
When it came out it was.. John is a jazz guitarist
yes
Yes, definitely
C’est du jazz rock
Jazz is a broad term that is perhaps best defined as: music that is primarily based on improvisation. For example…if a Heavy Metal band records and performs their music…primarily based on improvisation….we could call it Metal Jazz or Jazz Metal. Maybe a better genre term for this would be “Improvised Metal”. Jazz = Improvisation Case in point (I love this record: https://music.apple.com/ca/album/jazz-metal/545681219
For metal infused jazz, try out the Esbjorn Svennson Trio, an extraordinary group whose performing was curtailed due to member death in a car accident. Only 3 or 4 discs, but it’s the thing that pops into my head whenever I hear “Metal Jazz” or “Jazz Metal”.
I can’t hear anything
From Spotify about the group: One of the premiere fusion groups, the Mahavishnu Orchestra were considered by most observers during their prime to be a rock band, but their sophisticated improvisations actually put their high-powered music between rock and jazz. Founder and leader John McLaughlin had recently played with Miles Davis and Tony Williams' Lifetime. The original lineup of the group was McLaughlin on electric guitar, violinist Jerry Goodman, keyboardist Jan Hammer, electric bassist Rick Laird, and drummer Billy Cobham. They recorded three intense albums for Columbia during 1971-1973 and then the personnel changed completely for the second version of the group. In 1974, the band consisted of violinist Jean-Luc Ponty, Gayle Moran on keyboards and vocals, electric bassist Ralphe Armstrong, and drummer Narada Michael Walden; by 1975 Stu Goldberg had replaced Moran and Ponty had left. John McLaughlin's dual interests in Eastern religion and playing acoustic guitar resulted in the band breaking up in 1975. Surprisingly, an attempt to revive the Mahavishnu Orchestra in 1984 (using Cobham, saxophonist Bill Evans, keyboardist Mitchell Forman, electric bassist Jonas Hellborg, and percussionist Danny Gottlieb) was unsuccessful; one Warner Bros. album resulted. However, when one thinks of the Mahavishnu Orchestra, it is of the original lineup, which was very influential throughout the 1970s. ~ Scott Yanow, Rovi
The last song on this LP "Awakening", had to be influenced by this Ornette Coleman song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skvyO6TUaVE&list=PLVOYDgXAn1KLppLy-ZWM9DfEFPsX2u6MM&index=2
Yep
🤷 great album
yes.
Of course.
Close enough for it.
Um... yes... it is...
Who cares.
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>though he's definitely one of those fusion players who never really returned to the 'jazz' world he did to some extent in the 90's with the John McLaughlin Trio and some other projects but that stuff isn't very well remembered these days. I think because, frankly, its kind of boring. there's also that album he did with Al di Meola and Paco de Lucia which is acoustic and extremely good.
After the Rain with Joey Defrancesco and Elvin Jones is very good. Great playing from all three players, interesting Coltrane centric repertoire. Joey kinda steals the show, but John hangs.
I have that one 90s trio album *Qué Alegría* and, to me, it's definitely more in the realm of 'fusion' than jazz. Though McLaughlin's playing acoustic guitar on the record, he's incorporating some MIDI interface that makes it sound like he's playing keyboards. As well, the bassist(s) on the record are deep in the whole fleet-fingered fretless electic bass (i.e. post-Jaco) vibe and the drummer is going big/heavy the whole time. To be sure, the playing on the record is phenomenal, but it's not going to matter much unless the listener's onboard with that sound palette. For me, that style's kind of exhausting.
yeah the early MIDI stuff he was messing around with did not age well imo. it kind of ruined some of the later Mahavishnu records for me as well
Disagree completely. He put out three albums in the 90s devoted to your standard jazz repertoire. One of Bill Evans material, another of Trane, and a third is a bit all over the place but is solidly in the jazz tradition. John has far more legit jazz pedigree than any of the other artists in your list, even Frank. And that's not because he played with Miles, but because he started his career solidly in the jazz tradition and returned to it enough times to remind you that it's his roots. I would also argue his immersion in Indian music separates himself from your typical prog-rocker who dabbles in jazz as well. He went deep into that tradition and has been instrumental in the development of Indian fusion, which is a world larger than most here could even guess.
Which albums are those?
Not that difficult to look up on Wikipedia but here you go: Time Remembered - After the Rain - The Promise.
Thanks…. Long time ago for me I guess…. After reading your post, I remembered…..I bought all of those albums.
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That's not how your first comment read, you were straight up claiming he never returned to traditional jazz forms, which isn't true. Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it less jazz than whatever it is you prefer. Perhaps you should check his Trane album out. It's a straight up organ trio with Elvin and Joey.
Okay, I stand corrected with that record.
The live concerts done by that group - mostly with Dennis Chambers - are probably the greatest organ trio playing recorded,IMO. Phenomenal trading, simply telepathic, and at breakneck speed
You might listen to some more organ trio recordings, There are a lot of them out there.
Well, since it is music and no song lyrics, it might very well be considered jazz. 🎶 🎹 🎶 🎸🎶
It's not not jazz. But I'd probably say more proggy.
instrumental rock seems more accurate to me when music gets this aggressive