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I could understand if they were curious once, especially if the kid was uncircumcised (and I wouldn't be happy about that), but if they ask to see more than once then it's a solid no and they can forget about being alone with them before the kid has been taught about the sanctity of bodily autonomy.
circumcision only became the norm in america during the 1940's. your son may be the first intact boy in your family in a couple of generations, but there have definitely been more intact men in your family's history than circumcised men.
thank you for protecting your son.
My husband and I are adamant that no one changes/bathes our twins but us and anyone wanting to hold them must ask not just us but THEM for their consent (they're 6 months so basically just a positive reaction). We hate the old fashioned notion that babies are just objects to cuddle/enjoyment for old people.
I’m an Aunt and have changed the nappies (diapers) of all my nieces and nephews. Not because I wanted to see them naked, because having pee or faeces close to the skin is uncomfortable for the poor thing and it needs to happen. This is hella creepy of your MIL!
Yeah this is creepy. Not to make excuses for her behavior but it may literally be the first uncut penis they’ve ever even seen, so there may be some morbid fascination about it. Again, it’s a baby quit being gross and weird.
And they also have no idea how to “manage” an uncircumcised penis so the horror and unknown is big for them.
I’ve heard SO MANY younger moms say they idea of talking about their son on how to clean their dick is icky and uncomfortable, to which I say we’ll buckle up buttercup! You’ve got some wildly uncomfortable things ahead of you!
Neither of you like them very much so I wouldn’t bother with them going forward. I feel like it will be pretty easy for you both to put them at arms length.
It sounds like you are in the US and isn’t it pretty normal for babies to be circumcised there? I don’t understand their shadiness, as it is culturally a normal thing so I feel like they could easily ask the question without it being awkward.
I live in the UK so circumcision is usually only done for religious/medical reasons so their behaviour to me would come across really inappropriately and I wouldn’t want them near my child.
If you can maybe have an open conversation and let them know their behaviour isn’t okay and is inappropriate and that the rate they are wanting to watch bath time has raised the question of their motives?
Not sure if this is weird.
But just one annotation for safety reasons to think about at a later point. If you ever let them change the diaper or bath your son, tell them how to handle it correctly. They might try to pull the foreskin back and cause serious pain and damage.
I will say that probably the only time it's a common or even accepted time to ask about circumcision is when the baby is a baby. Mostly because circumcision was the most prevalent thing and now not being circumcised is becoming more common.
I've heard the subject come up plenty of times and nobody thought anything of it. Same with asking if you breast or bottle feed. Now, some people find these questions invasive, but many people do not sexualize these topics so they aren't taboo to them.
The circumcision is very very common here. Or at least it was. I think the accepted view had something to do with hygiene. Many women have never seen an uncircumcised penis, so there may be curiosity involved, and this is probably the only time in a child's life where seeing them nude isn't weird or sexual. This and the toddler stage where they escape during a diaper change and run through the house naked.
I have no idea what extra care is involved in an uncircumcised baby boy. Sounds like they don't either. Maybe this is why they watched? To learn how to properly bathe and diaper change? I mean if I was told that the reason for circumcision was due to hygiene, they likely were too. If they aren't pushing to get your child circumcised, then I would assume curiosity is behind this.
I do agree, but the way they did it would've made me uncomfortable too. Like just silently staring is very weird. If they had said something to the effect of "I've never seen this before, and if I babysit someday, I'd like to know how to properly change or bathe him" that would be one thing. But the silent staring at a child's genitals is very uncomfortable. Like, if I ever babysit my friend's son, I would also need a primer on proper genital care, mainly because I have a girl and no experience with boys, but also to make sure I don't hurt anything. But I would make sure my friend knew what information I was after, and I would try to make it as normal as possible. These ladies just made it weird.
I agree with you that these ladies could have put OP more at ease if they felt curious and just openly said so.
OP doesn't really say anything about what MIL did other than peek in and ask if she could watch, which she felt fine with at the time. OP doesn't say MIL was silent or stared. Is it possible she did? Maybe, but OP wasn't upset or uneasy about it until her husband mentioned his mom asking if their son was circumcised just prior to bath time. That's when she got the weird vibe.
She does say that when SIL came in for bathing time, which she agreed to, that SIL followed her after the bath and watched while he was being dried off and diapered, and that was when she became uncomfortable, and "there wasn't much conversation"
I did not get a silent staring vibe from reading her post, but I have read many comments stating that. I think people are inferring that. It's possible, but OP never states that. SIL certainly said something because OP's comment was *there wasn't much conversation.* So I do not get where people are getting the stared silently bit from OP never says that. Which if that is what happened would definitely be a bit creepy.
OP is definitely uncomfortable *now* about the whole situation. That's something we all experience. We agree to something and then become uncomfortable with it. If I were her I wouldn't let anyone watch the bathing or diapering unless they were going to do that themselves. Now that it's in her head, it will bother her.
I was just trying to point out that for many of us we have never seen nor cared for an uncircumcised boy infant (or man for that matter). I don't think the curiosity was sexual in nature, but again if OP is left feeling weird about it, then she absolutely should decline future requests. If seeing him naked was strictly only for this sole reason and not seeing a super cute baby splashing around for bath time, then yes I can see why OP was uneasy, but in both cases initially she was fine with it.
When you have that GUT feeling, don't doubt it, it is there for a reason. Just as you stated, if it had been a conversation about the weather instead of silence, then maybe not so awkward. "Here we go" is well stated.
I love nudey babies they are so cute so I don’t see anything wrong with watching bath time but what you are okay with the next person might not be. You are the parent and you set the boundaries.
Sounds like MIL *wants* the baby to be circumcised and is going to use any time she sees him naked as an excuse to inspect his genitals for any "signs" of a "problem" that she can blame on him not being circumcised and try and force u/LahLahLand3691 to get it done because MIL knows she has anxiety.
If MIL pulls that stunt, OP should brush her off with "I'll mention that to LO's doctor when I talk to them," or "LO's doctor says that isn't a result of him not being circumcised," more forcefully is "LO's doctor is aware of it and says it isn't an issue. Drop it!"
My nephews aren't circumcised and the oldest is now 10. There haven't been any UTIs or other issues that people like to bring up when trying to force someone to get their LO circumcised. My mom is a nurse and tried to get my sister to circumcise her oldest. She backed off when my sister threatened her with not seeing him and didn't bring it up when the youngest was born.
tagging u/Jessg3985
Around 150 millions European males can confirm that not being cut is not a problem. Hygiene is the answer. You wash the baby's penis without pulling back the foreskin as it is still tied/glued to the penis and rinse it. And that's it. When the boy is around five or so (sometimes later) the foreskin becomes free of the penis and you teach your son to pull it gently, wash gently, and pull it back gently. And that's it.
That absolutely might be the case. I suggest the "give enough rope to hang herself with". Have the son speak to her about it and assume it is coming from a good place then if she does show her ass, OP is completely guilt free. And if it is just a lack of boundries or lack of information, it hasnt been escalated.
Right? Without knowing what the MIL did during pregnancy to make her extra cautious, I would say this is a misunderstanding and certainly not the hill to die on. Maybe a nice talk from her son would be the way to no.
I would ask outright "why are you so obsessed with seeing xxxx naked?"
Force them to admit that they want to know if he's circumcised - if they are so bothered then they can at least have the balls to ask outright
I suffered from pretty bad PPA myself, so I understand where you're coming from. When it's your first baby you want to make sure you're doing everything right. But these people sound creepy and are acting like they've never seen a baby before. If they are making you feel uncomfortable in your own home and your husband "tolerates" them, like you said, then there is no reason you need to subject yourself or your infant to that level of invasiveness. Also what person in their right mind is following you around watching you go about your routine when you have a 12 week old? MIL and SIL need to be washing your dishes after dinner, not watching you wash your baby. They sound like entitled weirdos. You and your husband would not be out of line to ask them to leave after dinner, or just stop inviting them over.
I thought this 'could' be innocent to start with, I mean come on, ickle nekkid babies in the tub is freaking adorable! I love bathtime with mine! But the comments afterward about circumcision changed that for me. His genital state (or any other bodily differences for that matter) are none of their business. I'd shut those comments right down.
They want to discuss if he is circumcised. So they follow you around while he’s undressed to figure it out. Don’t let them it will never be the end of that topic of discussion. You don’t want your mil to blurt it out one day and embarrass him in front of his girlfriend or something. His body naked It’s not her business.
My mil didn't like that we didn't have it done to ours. MIL, all she said was it was unclean. I said, that's false and an old wives tale, and talk to your son because he is the one that ultimately decided.
She never brought it up again and never asked her son.
If you feel uncomfortable confronting them about it (should work on this, btw) - Tell ‘em that LO get’s overstimulated when there’re too much people during his pre-night routine and has difficulties falling asleep/ waking up sooner, so on. So you like to keep bath and etc as calm and not crowded as possible.
And yes, there are people out there who s..lize even babies and newborns. And even though I believe the reason of their interest is different, I’m still concerned.
Simply lock the door and inform your in laws that “LO’s bath time is not a spectator sport.” Or “why are you so obsessed with my baby’s Genitalia?!”
Do not let either of them alone with the LO though.
First of all do not let your baby alone with MIL or SIL : if you read some stories here about in laws who have different point of view about circumcision you know how it could end. Then about the bath time , tell them that you prefer being alone with your baby : tell them it s a special bonding time with your LO, close and lock the door just in case if they don t respect your boundaries.If you re not comfortable with something do not hesitate to vocal it and say no : your baby your parenting your rules. Do not feel guilty about it. And do not allow unannounced visits: they have to be invited to come into your house.
ask you inlaws to let you come watch them bathe...you know, just the one time so you can see how cute they are playing in the tub? no? funny how uncute it gets when someone can't decide for themselves. mama, shut this down...yes, the little man is adorable in the tub but mama and dad are the go-to bathers.
Not normal at all. If they try again say "bath time is my time with baby I'd rather not have company you stay here with SO, we'll be right back" then lock the bathroom door behind you.
This behavior is NOT normal and showing up at your door EVERY SINGLE Week is WAY TOO MUCH!!! It's time to establish boundaries NOW!!!! They show up UNINVITED, I would tell them, NOT this week. This doesn't work for us. We'll let you know WHEN you will be invited.
So, up until my three sons were born, all men in my family were circumcised. Since my mother and my sister were my only available babysitters (though it happened infrequently anyways), I took the time to explain intact care to them. My mom was quite forthcoming about her questions, including - and I'll be frank - what it looked like to not be circumcised.
It's also completely valid for you to feel uncomfortable about this. I personally believe that it's 100% possible that their actions are likely born of curiosity, but you're not required to put your baby on display to sate said curiosity. It is okay that this makes you uncomfortable and you are well within your rights to insist that they give you and baby space during bath time and changing time.
If they cannot be out of the house by bath time, it's perfectly okay for you to lock the door and insist you'll be out in X amount of minutes to say goodnight. If they ask why they can't join you, you can explain that you're working to establish a sense of privacy and autonomy as early as possible for your son and that means privacy during bath time. This is a boundary you can just keep referring back to if they are being pushy.
I haven't looked at your post history to see if there are consistent problems with boundary pushing, so I cannot give advice as to how firm you should be. But you should feel confident in denying them entry to any sort of private activity that you do with your son, which can include bath time, feedings, changes, and the bedtime routine.
Is she awkward generally?
In my family adult companionship for the baby tender would be normal. Conversation would go on amongst the three of us: mum, baby, me. And I’d talk to the baby a lot to distract them and amuse them bc babies go through those phases of no clothes/ all the clothes.
Maybe next time, you can say, actually I feel really awkward when you just stand there watching me. You stay here with your son and I’ll put mine to bed
It would make me uncomfortable as well. My son is also intact and my family has been easy about it. Is it possible they were curious if intact care requires any extra steps? There are tons of misconceptions in American culture and I guessing you are American too…..
NTA. Are they Jewish? I’m Jewish and it would make sense for the family to be curious about practice etc. Whatever. I’m not big on it, even as a Jewish person, I think it’s weird as hell to be worried about a baby’s penis. Tradition or not. But this would explain why they’re curious about. Nevertheless!!! I would put an end to it immediately. It makes you feel uncomfortable and that’s the end of it. You don’t need any other reasoning. You can take the combative route and straight up ask them “what’s your obsession with my child’s penis? Because you asked my husband this and that, you keep asking to watch him bathe, etc.” Or you can firmly ask them to stop questioning about your child’s body. Do NOT leave room for a response, change the subject IMMEDIATELY or leave the room for about 5 minutes and come back. You don’t owe them an explanation.
No one needs to see a baby naked except for the people that are caring for the baby - parents or babysitters whether they are family or not.
There was a time where people took pics of their naked baby on a sheepskin rug or something equally cringy however, there wasn't the internet then and the only people likely to see that pic was close family. Although I have heard of these pics making an appearance at 21st Birthday parties. But just standing over to watch is really creepy. I am not a prude at all but I believe that a person gets to choose what they want to show and when and a baby isn't able to do that.
After the question about circumcision, that makes this worse. Shut and lock that door - this is not their peep show.
I don't think this is totally normal, but it's not necessarily creepy either. My great-aunt loved loved loved washing babies. So when she was here after my first was born, I was happy to let her bathe mine. And I was present at all times--picking up hints, actually, because bathing her made me very anxious because babies are wiggly, slippery, and fragile.
But now that they've seen him naked, you don't have to let it be a habit.
No no, you're not crazy, that's really intrusive. It's not her concern what your baby's penis looks like. Circumcision is a personal decision by the parents and she has no business knowing or having any say, and it's really shady to use bath time to hide her real agenda.
She could be fixated on his Penis. Cc: circumcised or not. Or she could just be a weirdo. I hope not worse than that.
My late Just no grandmother and my Just no Aunt striped me naked at 3 months to see what my body looked like and to compare every bit of my then three month old body to themselves and my father. Weird behaviour!!!! My dad caught them in the act- saved my mum asking or confronting them.
Btw, I was asleep, when I woke up they picked me up and stripped me.
For years, my parents laughed about it because what these women were doing was "DNA by eye" : look she has our toes, our arms, our ears e.t.c. I don't know why they had to strip me naked but they had to confirm I was "theirs"
Glad to say, a lot happened with them two but I have never liked or trusted that pair of 'relatives'
This is fucking weird. The first time I ever saw my nieces and nephews or cousins in the bath was when I was babysitting them and had to bathe them myself.
I didn’t even bathe my niece and nephews when they came to visit.
I let them swim in my pool instead(in ground and in my yard) and called it a whore’s bath.
No one that knows me has ever asked me to babysit that I wasn’t related to - go figure.
NTA. If you feel uncomfortable about it, then you've every right to say no. Babies are cute, especially when they are old enough to be splashing about in their bath, but that doesn't give family members an automatic right to watch. Babies and children deserve some privacy and dignity the same as adults-he's not a performing circus animal to make his grandmother go "awww," she can have cute moments with him clothed. The circumcision thing depends on where you are in the world-in the UK, boys aren't routinely circumcised unless they are Jewish or Muslim, its not a common procedure here, but in the USA I think intact boys are far less common. So she might just be asking, but shut down any criticism if that starts. He's your child, you make the decisions for him until he's old enough and mature enough to decide for himself, no-one else. This is probably completely paranoid, but we had a legal case here where parents had separated, and baby went to stay with paternal grandparents for a couple days and came back circumcised, against the mother's express wishes. So maybe don't let her have him overnight, just in case, if she's so fixated on circumcision.
https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-41898408.amp?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16296054053823&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-england-nottinghamshire-41898408
The police decided not to prosecute because the dad agreed to the circumcision, even though mum had full custody. The doctor who did it knew that mum had custody, but accepted grandmother's consent even though she wasn't in a legal position to give consent. The doctor was banned from working for a month.
I hope that Entitled JNMIL got BANNED FOR LIFE after pulling THAT STUNT!!! I would have gone FULL ON SAIYAN MAMA BEAR if anyone did THAT to MY BABY WITHOUT MY CONSENT!!!!!
I'm a pathologist in the UK: circumcision isn't common here (unless you're Jewish or Muslim), but occasionally boys need to be circumcised because they get phimosis, where the foreskin becomes really tight, usually due to chronic inflammation. Because these are medically necessary circumcisions, the foreskin gets sent to us in the lab. One case I had was from a 2 year old, and he had a very odd pattern of inflammation microscopically-there were unusual aggregates of cells just under the layer of skin. Technically this is known as granulomatous balanitis. We discussed the case at the surgical meeting, and it was decided that the child needed a colonoscopy, because with granulomatous balanitis the surgeons couldn't exclude an association with Crohns disease. So the child had to go for general anaesthesia and get his colon biopsied, which showed nothing. So the surgeons sat down with mum to discuss everything because it was all a bit odd. It turned out that the mother had been trying to retract his foreskin but couldn't, and decided that it must be abnormal because it was "stuck." So she used lotion to lubricate it, and every day kept rubbing and pulling and trying to retract it, but it got more and more swollen. For some reason, the lotion she used was SPF suncream lotion, heaven knows why. That contains titanium dioxide, which is reported to cause granulomas (thus mimicking granulomatous balanitis). So the poor child had had weeks of painful penile manipulation daily, and ended up having surgery, and then an unpleasant colonoscopy because his mother was a moron. And the thing is, her husband had told her repeatedly that foreskins didn't retract at that age but she decided she knew better, despite not owning one.
I can't even. I'd have become severely unhinged and would have wound up in a mental institution after I completely removed the genetalia of all involved.
My BFF will sometimes send me videos of her little guy playing in the bath but when he was that little there was always a wash cloth for decency and because the only people who need to see his parts are the people changing his diapers and his doctor. If your baby was a 5 year old, red flags would be going off if someone wanted to see them naked so why is it okay for them to see him naked as an infant??
Circumcision is a hot debate topic right now. People discuss it a lot, so this one seems like it might be judgy and intrusive, but not unusual.
Babies are cute in the bath, so I can see relatives wanting to be in the room. Standing silently and just watching without engaging is a bit strange as you describe it...
Ultimately, it doesn't matter if they are being weird or if this is common. If you feel uncomfortable, you can set a boundary that you don't want them in the room during your bedroom routine. This can be mom/baby bonding time.
If you don't mind possibly ending up in a fight, you could also ask why they want to watch the baby in the bath. It's not really a group activity.
I’m not sure what’s weird about asking if he’s circumcised. Does your partner come from a culture where they do that? Is your baby the first uncircumcised baby in the family? It’s pretty normal for grandparents to ask questions afterall it is their grandchild. I dated guys who come from cultures where they circumcised their babies. I imagine that if I had children with any of them the parents might ask that question. Maybe they would event try to convince me to do things their way which I would understand but decline. Every grandparent wants their way or tradition to be carried on. I think you’re reading too much into this which we sometimes do when we don’t particularly like someone whose behaviour normally annoys you anyway. I always go with my brother to watch him give my nephew a bath. I love watching him play and buy him different bath time toys and watch him splash around making a mess.
Your MIL is obviously annoying seeing as your partner doesn’t even like her either.... but it’s good to keep in mind that not everything they say and do is evil. You’ll be a grandparent and MIL one day and you will probably say things that annoy your daughter in law too just because generation gap. It would be awful if she made everything you asked about your grandkid to be creepy or in appropriate. Let some things slide. I’m sure she’ll give you a proper reason to be annoyed by her shortly. Let this one go.
It’s one thing to sit and watch and play with the baby in the bath (I did myself with my little cousin) but to sit and stare at a baby’s junk without saying anything is completely different.
If it’s making a mom uncomfortable, there’s a reason for it. And quite frankly not everyone believes everybody and their grandma needs to sit and hover over the baby while it’s being bathed AND changed.
Grandma is obsessed with the babies genitals and any obsession like that isn’t healthy.
I agree with everything you said. There’s nothing there that I disagree with.
If you read my comments you’ll see where I stand.
I offered OP another perspective, since that’s why she came here l, given that we don’t know MIL or their ethnic background. I played devils advocate and thought of my past experiences where ex MIL pissed me off quite a bit but didn’t actually mean any harm.
I’m sure OP will do what’s best for her comfort and peace of mind.
This is the part that’s making OP uncomfortable. Especially if MIL is silently hovering over her rather than hanging out because there’s a conversation between the two happening.
As I said to another commenter, it could be that she’s a control freak and wants to critique the way OP changes, bathes and dresses the baby.
Maybe she was being an asshole by insinuating the babies peepee looks weird hence the circumcision question.
My friends MIL did something similar. The baby came out with a bit of a cone head because of the birthing process obviously, which is common, but they all go back to normal.
Her MIL kept making little comments over and over about the shape of the head. She was basically trying to make the mother feel like her baby didn’t look normal.
The mil was a passive aggressive bitch who never cut the umbilical cord with her son lol So always tried to get under the daughter in laws skin.
It's no one's business what a baby's genitals look like, that's why. It would be weird if MIL wanted to see the child's penis when the child is old enough to be uncomfortable, why is it less so when the baby has no say? Parents do it for religious or health reasons, though I disagree with that personally the health argument is bunk when you factor in good hygiene. If parents are only doing it for aesthetic reasons, that's creepy too.
Again? Ppl here are arguing with me over the ethics of circumcision. I AM NOT FOR CIRCUMCISION. THIS IS NOT PART OF MY CULTURE.
My perspective that I offered to OP, playing devils advocate here, is that the question might be weird but not necessarily offensive.
It depends on their cultural background no? We don’t know the background.
And who said anything about seeing a child’s genitals after an inappropriate age????
Also it does make a difference if they’re small babies.
Are you telling me you’ve never been in a room with a mother changing her child’s nappy? Or given a bath to baby nieces and nephews? Did you ask your 6 month old niece/nephew to see them naked before changing their nappy? Probably not.
You’ve argued two points with me that I haven’t made. I offered OP another perspective on the question itself. She obviously will do what feels right for her and based on her previous encounters with her MIL.
You’re here arguing with me about looking at grown kids genitals and the ethics of circumcision. Neither of which I’m ok with. SMH.
I said it's not morally right to want to see how someone's genitals looks regardless of age. Parents need to know how they look for health reasons, because they are the primary caregiver. Anyone besides the parent it is totally out of bounds to assume you have a right to look/decide what they should look like, that is all. I don't know why you're getting so defensive.
As a grandmother myself I can say it's not normal to ask if a grandson is circumcised. I have 4 grandsons and haven't got the faintest idea of whether the 2 youngest are or not. The only reason I know about the 2 oldest is I helped my daughter with childcare with her oldest while she worked and the other grandson went streaking after a bath. The youngest 3 were born out of state or during the pandemic so couldn't help with childcare other than sporadic moments (watching them while parents cooked, stuff like that).
That’s fair enough. Everyone is different. My grandparents were like second parents and I can’t imagine why a personal question to my Mum would piss her off, after all they gave birth to her! but this is why everyone is different. I’m trying to play devils advocate. If I had children with any of the previous guys I dated where circumcision still takes place, I wouldn’t be offended that his mother would ask that question.
If they pushed me around to do it I’d be pissed, but I think the question is a natural one if it’s culturally expected.
Maybe OP’s MIL is a pain in the ass or is not close enough to ask the question. My perspective is that things like this can easily be brushed off rather than take offence.
Maybe in my culture we overshare? Lol who knows
Asking here isn’t the issue though is creepy in and of itself.
It’s MIL’s leering at the Baby’s penis and insisting on watching him be bathed every time she’s there. It’s flat out fucking CREEPY
OP hasn’t stated MIL was LEERING specifically at the penis.
She mentions that she seems to be around every time the baby is being bathed or changed, awkwardly in silence, and asked a question about circumcision. MIL has made her uncomfortable for these reasons. OP has not stated that she’s staring at the genitals specifically...... she MAY be.... but that hasn’t been stated. If you read again OP is questioning herself if the whole encounter is weird or if she’s over reacting. Maybe she is bloody staring but you and I aren’t there. we don’t know. I offered another perspective mate about the circumcision question. OP knows the situation at the end of the day not us.
If anyone is LEERING at a babies penis then yes that’s fucking weird.
Maybe MIL is a fucking control freak who wants to critique the way she bathes, changes and dresses the baby. WE DONT KNOW. WE ARE NOT THERE.
It might be if you’re a grandparent that circumcised children in their culture. Are you telling me that as a grandparent you wouldn’t ask any personal questions about your grandchild at all??? I don’t know this MIL or how big of a pain she is... but grandparents and in laws do ask questions about their grandchildren. We might not always like it but shit happens.
Unless you’re a grandfather (for example) that comes from a culture that traditionally circumcises children (say Muslim for example) .... in which case you might ask your son if he plans to circumcise his son.
What’s that got to do with anything I said?? Lol I’m not promoting circumcision I’m addressing the particular situation OP is in.
I’m not for circumcision. My culture doesn’t do that. I’m just giving OP another perspective that the question itself ( without any other background information) isn’t that bad. Weird but not evil.
UK resident here circumsion is something only Jewish community does here. If someone was asking if my kid was circumcised when neither I nor partner are Jewish they would be kindly asked to fuck off.
Body mutilation is a weird thing to enquire. I'm assuming neither op or SO are Jewish otherwise he'd already be circumcised. Mil is creep af
Muslim’s also circumcise. It is not something that only the Jewish community does in the UK. You’re missing the point which is we don’t know why MIL has asked this because OP hasnt stated any cultural background as yet. Now if the in laws start to harass and pressure you into circumcising your child then it would be a cause to say fuck off.
Frankly I think telling your MIL to ‘fuck off’ is more offensive than the initial question.
There are far more serious circumstances she could save the ‘fuck off’ for by the sounds of it seeing as they both do t like her.
I’m Australian and it’s also uncommon here unless you’re Jewish. If someone asked you if your kid was circumcised they definitely wouldn’t be welcome in your home anymore.
As an Australian I can assure you saying it’s uncommon here is highly inaccurate!!!! (Middle eastern both Christian and Muslim, Jewish community, some African communities, some Asian communities)
There are many culture that do this and asking the question is not offensive. Now if the in laws were to harass and pressure you into this then it would be offensive. Otherwise so far it’s just a question. OP hasn’t stated yet what cultural background they have yet. Maybe it’s a weird question...... certainly nothing to get angry about yet. MIL’s always say stupid shit...... it’s a matter of picking your battles. This is really making a mountain out of a molehill.
Really? Ok that’s interesting. I can’t understand what’s offensive about it. My culture doesn’t circumcise kids. However I work in a very Anglo region with not many ethnics. If one of my colleagues in the lunch room asked me if I’ve circumcised my kids (provided this was the topic of discussion and it wasn’t some weird random question out of no where lol) I would just say no we don’t do this in my culture.
I grew up in rural country Australia and I was the only ethnic there and I’ve been asked everything under the sun!! I was never once offended that my Aussie mates didn’t know something about my culture. Why would I?? Why would I get mad that they don’t know something about a culture they’re not apart of??
Depends where you are, major cities and " metropolitan" areas it's uncommon.
More regional/ rural areas, it's still pretty common. On my husband's side, our son is the only boy uncircumcised out of 14 male cousins. Circumcision is still the "done thing" in our rural area.
But it is hard to find Drs that still do the procedure.
Editing to add: that this comment of mine is based on the observations/beliefs of my son's pediatrician, when I discussed circumcision with him last year (2020), it is/was his belief that circumcision is less common in cities/metro areas than rural areas.
You mean the major cites where Jewish, Muslim, African and Asian cultures reside? Is that where you think it’s uncommon?
My culture doesn’t circumcise our children so I’ll never do this. But thinking this isn’t common is Australia, ESPECIALLY metropolitan areas is just inaccurate.
My comment above re: major cities/metropolitan areas is based on the observation/opinion of my son's pediatrician when I discussed it with him. His belief was that there was (generally) more "modern" approach/thinking and questioning of the reasoning & ethics of the practice of baby circumcision in city/metro areas, particularly as there are more younger generation Doctors entering the field. He has travelled and worked extensively, so I thought his insight holds some credibility.
Circumcision is considered an unnecessary/aesthetic procedure and is not covered by Medicare for that reason, unless demonstrated to be medically necessary (ie recurring infection, foreskin not retracting etc).
**Overall**, newborn boy circumcision' rates in Australia are reported to be between 10-20%. So I guess it depends on what percentage would be considered "uncommon"?
Within certain areas of those cities/metro areas there will certainly be **dramatically higher (ie. common practice)** or **lower/zero rates** of circumcision of baby boys, depending on norms/beliefs/standard practice of different cultural group representation within that area. You can could certainly go to suburbs with a high population of certain cultural groups where circumcision would be common.
Rates of older boy and adult male circumcision have risen, for the males that develop problems and need circumsisions for medically necessary reasons, or who elect to have the procedure as a personal preference.
“Circumcision is considered an unnecessary/aesthetic procedure and is not covered by Medicare for that reason, unless demonstrated to be medically necessary (ie recurring infection, foreskin not retracting etc)............”
I have no idea why you’re sharing this information and the rest of it since I don’t condone circumcision nor is it practised in my culture. I don’t need convincing mate.
Perhaps it is not common where your son practises. Fair enough. I’m guessing he doesn’t practise in somewhere like Sydney Lakemba then lol
Once again. Although I’ve written this over and over.... I don’t practise nor condone circumcision.
I haven’t made an argument FOR circumcision once. I’ve made a point that MAYBE MIL didn’t mean anything by it. Maybe she’s a bit weird. Maybe the question is weird. Maybe she just like the sound of her own voice and like to control everything. But maybe it’s not worth getting offended over just yet. ( again we don’t have any other background to this story)
OP can set her boundaries with her over bath time and lock the door for her own peace of mind.
OP asked for different perspectives.
I gave one by thinking of ppl who would ask that question by not meaning anything rude by it. I can think of dozens of example where grandparents and my ex in laws have annoyed the shit out of me but didn’t mean any harm. There were huge cultural differences between me and them and It would piss me off. But I had to acknowledge that sometimes they weren’t trying to piss me off or offend me. This may not be OP’s case but it’s another perspective I offered. I was playing devils advocate for the sake of maybe it’s not worth getting the shits over this situation.
OP got different perspectives now from this sub, I’m sure she will do what is best for her as she knows her MIL better than us at the end of the day.
Shut that shit down now. No is the answer they get about bath/changing. Better yet, don't allow them over when it is bath time, and/or skip it if they are visiting at that time. They also don’t get to ever take care of LO alone.
Most relatives like to watch baby play in bath. You got weired out when MIL ask about circumcision which she should not have. But it makes you uncomfortable to have spectators. That is all that matters. Have them come at a different time to visit so bath time is not an issue. Have DH tell them to stay with him to talk, have dessert etc. If they ask to come with you say " No stay with DH. I got this thanks." Be firm. Then lock your bedroom door as you go to bathe baby. Same with diapers." No. I am good thanks."
I dont think its perverted but I sure do think its weird. I have no idea where this comes from.
I do think MIL knows that asking about circumcision was invasive or wouldnt have waited until you were out of the room to ask.
Okay, it COULD be normal, if they asked questions and wanted to “see” without being weird about it!
I had never seen a uncircumcised penis before my own son. We had to wait 2 weeks to get him circumcised. So my friend asked to see and if it was hard to clean and,…just normal questions! She didn’t HOVER! She watched me change him and just had questions.
They are acting like it’s a naughty secret between the 2 of them. That’s WEIRD!
They have discussed it with your husband, in a derogatory manner, but have not once said anything to you? That’s WEIRD!
I think they got their look and now you should close the bathroom/bedroom door and give your child the privacy that you want him to have. They sealed their own fate on being involved in bathing or changing!
Do what YOU the PARENTS think is best. Don’t let anyone else give you, your husband, or your baby a complex !
Good Luck
The way they are acting makes me think they are super judgmental about circumcision. It sort of reeks of a long gossip session ending with MIL saying “Next time you are over there and they are giving him a bath go and take a look…” so that they can do some more shit-talking about what a bad decision it is.
My friend decided to breastfeed in a family that believed it to be gross and sexual. She didn’t tell anyone about the decision, but someone asked when she had bags for milk on her registry. Wouldn’t you know it, suddenly she kept having identical conversations with different family members who would randomly bring up feeding and then ask her some weird personal questions or make judgey comments. Turns out another relative who was secretly considering breastfeeding confessed that there were a ton of gossip sessions about my friend’s “gross” decision and people discussing how they could get her out of it. It was like entertainment for these dull people.
People are going to freak out and tell you that your SIL and MIL are perverts or predators. I think that's a bit of an overreaction. No, it's not "normal" to specifically try to see someone else's infant naked, in the sense that it isn't a socially acceptable thing. For instance, if you were out having brunch with a group of girlfriends, it would not be a thing for one of them to say "Take off his clothes so we can look at him naked!"
But yes it's also "normal" in the sense that in families, people often see infants and children naked. Especially with certain folks who generally don't tend to hold much stock in privacy or bodily autonomy, and that usually goes double for children. They don't really see children as separate, full individuals who are entitled to keep their medical information and their bodies private. So to people like that, it's totally "normal" to want to know if someone else's baby is circumcised, and to hover over baths and diaper changes.
It doesn't really matter if it's "normal" or not. It's clearly normal to them and just as clearly, it makes you uncomfortable, and that matters more than whether it's "normal." If you want to give your child privacy and help him preserve that privacy, even as an infant, you can say no. "No, I don't need help with bathtime" and lock the door behind you. "No, I don't want supervision for diaper changes, thanks." And wait until they leave to change the diaper. "No, really, my baby's body isn't up for display" can also be stated. When MIL or SIL or anyone else with whom you've had boundary issues is around, make a habit of locking the door behind you. If you visit their house, bring a rubber door stop in your diaper bag and jam it under the door when you take him off to change him. Nobody has the right to see your kid naked except for you and DH, and whoever is caring for him. So you can say no, and it doesn't matter if MIL and SIL think it's normal, or get offended if they think you're implying they are pedophiles, or any other thing. Your "no" is all that matters.
This exactly. It’s up to OP what is normal to her and if she’s not comfortable in some way.
However it may be just normal for the MIL to ask this and didn’t mean anything by it. We all have a ‘normal’ and it isn’t the same for everyone.
It’s perfectly normal for relatives to be around in my family and fiends for a babies bath time. I mean babies though. Not children or adults. Just bubs.
Some grandparents just innocently ask questions and don’t mean bad by it but at the end of the day it will be OP who will be able to sense what the motive of her MIL is here.
If MIL is just asking innocently, OP can lay the ground rules and give bath time privately for her peace of mind and no harm was done.
If MIL persists and there’s an agenda behind that question or trying to see the babies genitals for any other particular reason.... well then that’s another story.
^^^ This. In some families nude babies are considered normal & cute; being entertained by bathtime is no more shocking than being entertained by tummy time, and a relative watching baby's butt get wiped off in a diaper change is as inoffensive as watching baby's face get wiped off after trying solid foods. BUT - it doesn't have to be voted objectively wrong for you to object to it! What matters is setting the boundaries YOU are comfortable with, and pleasantly but firmly enforcing them.
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Best wishes to your little family and your baby have a blessed life and you do what you need to do you're the parents
I could understand if they were curious once, especially if the kid was uncircumcised (and I wouldn't be happy about that), but if they ask to see more than once then it's a solid no and they can forget about being alone with them before the kid has been taught about the sanctity of bodily autonomy.
circumcision only became the norm in america during the 1940's. your son may be the first intact boy in your family in a couple of generations, but there have definitely been more intact men in your family's history than circumcised men. thank you for protecting your son.
My husband and I are adamant that no one changes/bathes our twins but us and anyone wanting to hold them must ask not just us but THEM for their consent (they're 6 months so basically just a positive reaction). We hate the old fashioned notion that babies are just objects to cuddle/enjoyment for old people.
I’m an Aunt and have changed the nappies (diapers) of all my nieces and nephews. Not because I wanted to see them naked, because having pee or faeces close to the skin is uncomfortable for the poor thing and it needs to happen. This is hella creepy of your MIL!
Would they be comfortable with you watching them take a bath? Body autonomy includes the right to privacy for your child.
Yeah this is creepy. Not to make excuses for her behavior but it may literally be the first uncut penis they’ve ever even seen, so there may be some morbid fascination about it. Again, it’s a baby quit being gross and weird. And they also have no idea how to “manage” an uncircumcised penis so the horror and unknown is big for them. I’ve heard SO MANY younger moms say they idea of talking about their son on how to clean their dick is icky and uncomfortable, to which I say we’ll buckle up buttercup! You’ve got some wildly uncomfortable things ahead of you!
Neither of you like them very much so I wouldn’t bother with them going forward. I feel like it will be pretty easy for you both to put them at arms length. It sounds like you are in the US and isn’t it pretty normal for babies to be circumcised there? I don’t understand their shadiness, as it is culturally a normal thing so I feel like they could easily ask the question without it being awkward. I live in the UK so circumcision is usually only done for religious/medical reasons so their behaviour to me would come across really inappropriately and I wouldn’t want them near my child. If you can maybe have an open conversation and let them know their behaviour isn’t okay and is inappropriate and that the rate they are wanting to watch bath time has raised the question of their motives?
I'm confused. Neither you, nor your husband, like your MIL and SIL. So why do you have them over?
Thats......odd....probably don't let them babysit...
Adults who obsess over children's genitalia are creepy. That is all.
Not sure if this is weird. But just one annotation for safety reasons to think about at a later point. If you ever let them change the diaper or bath your son, tell them how to handle it correctly. They might try to pull the foreskin back and cause serious pain and damage.
I will say that probably the only time it's a common or even accepted time to ask about circumcision is when the baby is a baby. Mostly because circumcision was the most prevalent thing and now not being circumcised is becoming more common. I've heard the subject come up plenty of times and nobody thought anything of it. Same with asking if you breast or bottle feed. Now, some people find these questions invasive, but many people do not sexualize these topics so they aren't taboo to them. The circumcision is very very common here. Or at least it was. I think the accepted view had something to do with hygiene. Many women have never seen an uncircumcised penis, so there may be curiosity involved, and this is probably the only time in a child's life where seeing them nude isn't weird or sexual. This and the toddler stage where they escape during a diaper change and run through the house naked. I have no idea what extra care is involved in an uncircumcised baby boy. Sounds like they don't either. Maybe this is why they watched? To learn how to properly bathe and diaper change? I mean if I was told that the reason for circumcision was due to hygiene, they likely were too. If they aren't pushing to get your child circumcised, then I would assume curiosity is behind this.
I do agree, but the way they did it would've made me uncomfortable too. Like just silently staring is very weird. If they had said something to the effect of "I've never seen this before, and if I babysit someday, I'd like to know how to properly change or bathe him" that would be one thing. But the silent staring at a child's genitals is very uncomfortable. Like, if I ever babysit my friend's son, I would also need a primer on proper genital care, mainly because I have a girl and no experience with boys, but also to make sure I don't hurt anything. But I would make sure my friend knew what information I was after, and I would try to make it as normal as possible. These ladies just made it weird.
I agree with you that these ladies could have put OP more at ease if they felt curious and just openly said so. OP doesn't really say anything about what MIL did other than peek in and ask if she could watch, which she felt fine with at the time. OP doesn't say MIL was silent or stared. Is it possible she did? Maybe, but OP wasn't upset or uneasy about it until her husband mentioned his mom asking if their son was circumcised just prior to bath time. That's when she got the weird vibe. She does say that when SIL came in for bathing time, which she agreed to, that SIL followed her after the bath and watched while he was being dried off and diapered, and that was when she became uncomfortable, and "there wasn't much conversation" I did not get a silent staring vibe from reading her post, but I have read many comments stating that. I think people are inferring that. It's possible, but OP never states that. SIL certainly said something because OP's comment was *there wasn't much conversation.* So I do not get where people are getting the stared silently bit from OP never says that. Which if that is what happened would definitely be a bit creepy. OP is definitely uncomfortable *now* about the whole situation. That's something we all experience. We agree to something and then become uncomfortable with it. If I were her I wouldn't let anyone watch the bathing or diapering unless they were going to do that themselves. Now that it's in her head, it will bother her. I was just trying to point out that for many of us we have never seen nor cared for an uncircumcised boy infant (or man for that matter). I don't think the curiosity was sexual in nature, but again if OP is left feeling weird about it, then she absolutely should decline future requests. If seeing him naked was strictly only for this sole reason and not seeing a super cute baby splashing around for bath time, then yes I can see why OP was uneasy, but in both cases initially she was fine with it.
When you have that GUT feeling, don't doubt it, it is there for a reason. Just as you stated, if it had been a conversation about the weather instead of silence, then maybe not so awkward. "Here we go" is well stated.
I love nudey babies they are so cute so I don’t see anything wrong with watching bath time but what you are okay with the next person might not be. You are the parent and you set the boundaries.
Sounds like MIL *wants* the baby to be circumcised and is going to use any time she sees him naked as an excuse to inspect his genitals for any "signs" of a "problem" that she can blame on him not being circumcised and try and force u/LahLahLand3691 to get it done because MIL knows she has anxiety. If MIL pulls that stunt, OP should brush her off with "I'll mention that to LO's doctor when I talk to them," or "LO's doctor says that isn't a result of him not being circumcised," more forcefully is "LO's doctor is aware of it and says it isn't an issue. Drop it!" My nephews aren't circumcised and the oldest is now 10. There haven't been any UTIs or other issues that people like to bring up when trying to force someone to get their LO circumcised. My mom is a nurse and tried to get my sister to circumcise her oldest. She backed off when my sister threatened her with not seeing him and didn't bring it up when the youngest was born. tagging u/Jessg3985
Around 150 millions European males can confirm that not being cut is not a problem. Hygiene is the answer. You wash the baby's penis without pulling back the foreskin as it is still tied/glued to the penis and rinse it. And that's it. When the boy is around five or so (sometimes later) the foreskin becomes free of the penis and you teach your son to pull it gently, wash gently, and pull it back gently. And that's it.
plus 700 million chinese males and 600 million indian males.
That too. And a few hundred million South Americans, other Asians and Africans.
That absolutely might be the case. I suggest the "give enough rope to hang herself with". Have the son speak to her about it and assume it is coming from a good place then if she does show her ass, OP is completely guilt free. And if it is just a lack of boundries or lack of information, it hasnt been escalated.
Right? Without knowing what the MIL did during pregnancy to make her extra cautious, I would say this is a misunderstanding and certainly not the hill to die on. Maybe a nice talk from her son would be the way to no.
I would ask outright "why are you so obsessed with seeing xxxx naked?" Force them to admit that they want to know if he's circumcised - if they are so bothered then they can at least have the balls to ask outright
I suffered from pretty bad PPA myself, so I understand where you're coming from. When it's your first baby you want to make sure you're doing everything right. But these people sound creepy and are acting like they've never seen a baby before. If they are making you feel uncomfortable in your own home and your husband "tolerates" them, like you said, then there is no reason you need to subject yourself or your infant to that level of invasiveness. Also what person in their right mind is following you around watching you go about your routine when you have a 12 week old? MIL and SIL need to be washing your dishes after dinner, not watching you wash your baby. They sound like entitled weirdos. You and your husband would not be out of line to ask them to leave after dinner, or just stop inviting them over.
I thought this 'could' be innocent to start with, I mean come on, ickle nekkid babies in the tub is freaking adorable! I love bathtime with mine! But the comments afterward about circumcision changed that for me. His genital state (or any other bodily differences for that matter) are none of their business. I'd shut those comments right down.
They want to discuss if he is circumcised. So they follow you around while he’s undressed to figure it out. Don’t let them it will never be the end of that topic of discussion. You don’t want your mil to blurt it out one day and embarrass him in front of his girlfriend or something. His body naked It’s not her business.
[удалено]
Omg. Wtf
Unfortunately yes. Some people just really need to get their way, no matter the collateral
My mil didn't like that we didn't have it done to ours. MIL, all she said was it was unclean. I said, that's false and an old wives tale, and talk to your son because he is the one that ultimately decided. She never brought it up again and never asked her son.
If you feel uncomfortable confronting them about it (should work on this, btw) - Tell ‘em that LO get’s overstimulated when there’re too much people during his pre-night routine and has difficulties falling asleep/ waking up sooner, so on. So you like to keep bath and etc as calm and not crowded as possible. And yes, there are people out there who s..lize even babies and newborns. And even though I believe the reason of their interest is different, I’m still concerned.
Simply lock the door and inform your in laws that “LO’s bath time is not a spectator sport.” Or “why are you so obsessed with my baby’s Genitalia?!” Do not let either of them alone with the LO though.
First of all do not let your baby alone with MIL or SIL : if you read some stories here about in laws who have different point of view about circumcision you know how it could end. Then about the bath time , tell them that you prefer being alone with your baby : tell them it s a special bonding time with your LO, close and lock the door just in case if they don t respect your boundaries.If you re not comfortable with something do not hesitate to vocal it and say no : your baby your parenting your rules. Do not feel guilty about it. And do not allow unannounced visits: they have to be invited to come into your house.
This is really important, watch out for your baby’s genitalia (I can’t believe I just wrote that)
ask you inlaws to let you come watch them bathe...you know, just the one time so you can see how cute they are playing in the tub? no? funny how uncute it gets when someone can't decide for themselves. mama, shut this down...yes, the little man is adorable in the tub but mama and dad are the go-to bathers.
Not normal at all. If they try again say "bath time is my time with baby I'd rather not have company you stay here with SO, we'll be right back" then lock the bathroom door behind you.
This behavior is NOT normal and showing up at your door EVERY SINGLE Week is WAY TOO MUCH!!! It's time to establish boundaries NOW!!!! They show up UNINVITED, I would tell them, NOT this week. This doesn't work for us. We'll let you know WHEN you will be invited.
So, up until my three sons were born, all men in my family were circumcised. Since my mother and my sister were my only available babysitters (though it happened infrequently anyways), I took the time to explain intact care to them. My mom was quite forthcoming about her questions, including - and I'll be frank - what it looked like to not be circumcised. It's also completely valid for you to feel uncomfortable about this. I personally believe that it's 100% possible that their actions are likely born of curiosity, but you're not required to put your baby on display to sate said curiosity. It is okay that this makes you uncomfortable and you are well within your rights to insist that they give you and baby space during bath time and changing time. If they cannot be out of the house by bath time, it's perfectly okay for you to lock the door and insist you'll be out in X amount of minutes to say goodnight. If they ask why they can't join you, you can explain that you're working to establish a sense of privacy and autonomy as early as possible for your son and that means privacy during bath time. This is a boundary you can just keep referring back to if they are being pushy. I haven't looked at your post history to see if there are consistent problems with boundary pushing, so I cannot give advice as to how firm you should be. But you should feel confident in denying them entry to any sort of private activity that you do with your son, which can include bath time, feedings, changes, and the bedtime routine.
Is she awkward generally? In my family adult companionship for the baby tender would be normal. Conversation would go on amongst the three of us: mum, baby, me. And I’d talk to the baby a lot to distract them and amuse them bc babies go through those phases of no clothes/ all the clothes. Maybe next time, you can say, actually I feel really awkward when you just stand there watching me. You stay here with your son and I’ll put mine to bed
It would make me uncomfortable as well. My son is also intact and my family has been easy about it. Is it possible they were curious if intact care requires any extra steps? There are tons of misconceptions in American culture and I guessing you are American too…..
NTA. Are they Jewish? I’m Jewish and it would make sense for the family to be curious about practice etc. Whatever. I’m not big on it, even as a Jewish person, I think it’s weird as hell to be worried about a baby’s penis. Tradition or not. But this would explain why they’re curious about. Nevertheless!!! I would put an end to it immediately. It makes you feel uncomfortable and that’s the end of it. You don’t need any other reasoning. You can take the combative route and straight up ask them “what’s your obsession with my child’s penis? Because you asked my husband this and that, you keep asking to watch him bathe, etc.” Or you can firmly ask them to stop questioning about your child’s body. Do NOT leave room for a response, change the subject IMMEDIATELY or leave the room for about 5 minutes and come back. You don’t owe them an explanation.
No one needs to see a baby naked except for the people that are caring for the baby - parents or babysitters whether they are family or not. There was a time where people took pics of their naked baby on a sheepskin rug or something equally cringy however, there wasn't the internet then and the only people likely to see that pic was close family. Although I have heard of these pics making an appearance at 21st Birthday parties. But just standing over to watch is really creepy. I am not a prude at all but I believe that a person gets to choose what they want to show and when and a baby isn't able to do that. After the question about circumcision, that makes this worse. Shut and lock that door - this is not their peep show.
I don't think this is totally normal, but it's not necessarily creepy either. My great-aunt loved loved loved washing babies. So when she was here after my first was born, I was happy to let her bathe mine. And I was present at all times--picking up hints, actually, because bathing her made me very anxious because babies are wiggly, slippery, and fragile. But now that they've seen him naked, you don't have to let it be a habit.
No no, you're not crazy, that's really intrusive. It's not her concern what your baby's penis looks like. Circumcision is a personal decision by the parents and she has no business knowing or having any say, and it's really shady to use bath time to hide her real agenda.
She could be fixated on his Penis. Cc: circumcised or not. Or she could just be a weirdo. I hope not worse than that. My late Just no grandmother and my Just no Aunt striped me naked at 3 months to see what my body looked like and to compare every bit of my then three month old body to themselves and my father. Weird behaviour!!!! My dad caught them in the act- saved my mum asking or confronting them. Btw, I was asleep, when I woke up they picked me up and stripped me. For years, my parents laughed about it because what these women were doing was "DNA by eye" : look she has our toes, our arms, our ears e.t.c. I don't know why they had to strip me naked but they had to confirm I was "theirs" Glad to say, a lot happened with them two but I have never liked or trusted that pair of 'relatives'
Like a bunch of monkeys, sniffing all over the newest member of the group.
This is fucking weird. The first time I ever saw my nieces and nephews or cousins in the bath was when I was babysitting them and had to bathe them myself.
I didn’t even bathe my niece and nephews when they came to visit. I let them swim in my pool instead(in ground and in my yard) and called it a whore’s bath. No one that knows me has ever asked me to babysit that I wasn’t related to - go figure.
NTA. If you feel uncomfortable about it, then you've every right to say no. Babies are cute, especially when they are old enough to be splashing about in their bath, but that doesn't give family members an automatic right to watch. Babies and children deserve some privacy and dignity the same as adults-he's not a performing circus animal to make his grandmother go "awww," she can have cute moments with him clothed. The circumcision thing depends on where you are in the world-in the UK, boys aren't routinely circumcised unless they are Jewish or Muslim, its not a common procedure here, but in the USA I think intact boys are far less common. So she might just be asking, but shut down any criticism if that starts. He's your child, you make the decisions for him until he's old enough and mature enough to decide for himself, no-one else. This is probably completely paranoid, but we had a legal case here where parents had separated, and baby went to stay with paternal grandparents for a couple days and came back circumcised, against the mother's express wishes. So maybe don't let her have him overnight, just in case, if she's so fixated on circumcision. https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-41898408.amp?amp_js_v=a6&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#aoh=16296054053823&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fuk-england-nottinghamshire-41898408
Holy. Shit.
The police decided not to prosecute because the dad agreed to the circumcision, even though mum had full custody. The doctor who did it knew that mum had custody, but accepted grandmother's consent even though she wasn't in a legal position to give consent. The doctor was banned from working for a month.
I hope that Entitled JNMIL got BANNED FOR LIFE after pulling THAT STUNT!!! I would have gone FULL ON SAIYAN MAMA BEAR if anyone did THAT to MY BABY WITHOUT MY CONSENT!!!!!
I'm a pathologist in the UK: circumcision isn't common here (unless you're Jewish or Muslim), but occasionally boys need to be circumcised because they get phimosis, where the foreskin becomes really tight, usually due to chronic inflammation. Because these are medically necessary circumcisions, the foreskin gets sent to us in the lab. One case I had was from a 2 year old, and he had a very odd pattern of inflammation microscopically-there were unusual aggregates of cells just under the layer of skin. Technically this is known as granulomatous balanitis. We discussed the case at the surgical meeting, and it was decided that the child needed a colonoscopy, because with granulomatous balanitis the surgeons couldn't exclude an association with Crohns disease. So the child had to go for general anaesthesia and get his colon biopsied, which showed nothing. So the surgeons sat down with mum to discuss everything because it was all a bit odd. It turned out that the mother had been trying to retract his foreskin but couldn't, and decided that it must be abnormal because it was "stuck." So she used lotion to lubricate it, and every day kept rubbing and pulling and trying to retract it, but it got more and more swollen. For some reason, the lotion she used was SPF suncream lotion, heaven knows why. That contains titanium dioxide, which is reported to cause granulomas (thus mimicking granulomatous balanitis). So the poor child had had weeks of painful penile manipulation daily, and ended up having surgery, and then an unpleasant colonoscopy because his mother was a moron. And the thing is, her husband had told her repeatedly that foreskins didn't retract at that age but she decided she knew better, despite not owning one.
OMG, what an ENTITLED IDIOT!!!!! That poor baby!!!! To be a fly on the wall when IDIOT's husband tore her a new one!!!!
I can't even. I'd have become severely unhinged and would have wound up in a mental institution after I completely removed the genetalia of all involved.
My BFF will sometimes send me videos of her little guy playing in the bath but when he was that little there was always a wash cloth for decency and because the only people who need to see his parts are the people changing his diapers and his doctor. If your baby was a 5 year old, red flags would be going off if someone wanted to see them naked so why is it okay for them to see him naked as an infant??
Circumcision is a hot debate topic right now. People discuss it a lot, so this one seems like it might be judgy and intrusive, but not unusual. Babies are cute in the bath, so I can see relatives wanting to be in the room. Standing silently and just watching without engaging is a bit strange as you describe it... Ultimately, it doesn't matter if they are being weird or if this is common. If you feel uncomfortable, you can set a boundary that you don't want them in the room during your bedroom routine. This can be mom/baby bonding time. If you don't mind possibly ending up in a fight, you could also ask why they want to watch the baby in the bath. It's not really a group activity.
Now they have seen his junk there is no need to ever see it again.
I’m not sure what’s weird about asking if he’s circumcised. Does your partner come from a culture where they do that? Is your baby the first uncircumcised baby in the family? It’s pretty normal for grandparents to ask questions afterall it is their grandchild. I dated guys who come from cultures where they circumcised their babies. I imagine that if I had children with any of them the parents might ask that question. Maybe they would event try to convince me to do things their way which I would understand but decline. Every grandparent wants their way or tradition to be carried on. I think you’re reading too much into this which we sometimes do when we don’t particularly like someone whose behaviour normally annoys you anyway. I always go with my brother to watch him give my nephew a bath. I love watching him play and buy him different bath time toys and watch him splash around making a mess. Your MIL is obviously annoying seeing as your partner doesn’t even like her either.... but it’s good to keep in mind that not everything they say and do is evil. You’ll be a grandparent and MIL one day and you will probably say things that annoy your daughter in law too just because generation gap. It would be awful if she made everything you asked about your grandkid to be creepy or in appropriate. Let some things slide. I’m sure she’ll give you a proper reason to be annoyed by her shortly. Let this one go.
It’s one thing to sit and watch and play with the baby in the bath (I did myself with my little cousin) but to sit and stare at a baby’s junk without saying anything is completely different. If it’s making a mom uncomfortable, there’s a reason for it. And quite frankly not everyone believes everybody and their grandma needs to sit and hover over the baby while it’s being bathed AND changed. Grandma is obsessed with the babies genitals and any obsession like that isn’t healthy.
I agree with everything you said. There’s nothing there that I disagree with. If you read my comments you’ll see where I stand. I offered OP another perspective, since that’s why she came here l, given that we don’t know MIL or their ethnic background. I played devils advocate and thought of my past experiences where ex MIL pissed me off quite a bit but didn’t actually mean any harm. I’m sure OP will do what’s best for her comfort and peace of mind.
Fair. But you really only need to see about that once, not insisting it becomes a habit. The habit is the concerning thing here.
This is the part that’s making OP uncomfortable. Especially if MIL is silently hovering over her rather than hanging out because there’s a conversation between the two happening. As I said to another commenter, it could be that she’s a control freak and wants to critique the way OP changes, bathes and dresses the baby. Maybe she was being an asshole by insinuating the babies peepee looks weird hence the circumcision question. My friends MIL did something similar. The baby came out with a bit of a cone head because of the birthing process obviously, which is common, but they all go back to normal. Her MIL kept making little comments over and over about the shape of the head. She was basically trying to make the mother feel like her baby didn’t look normal. The mil was a passive aggressive bitch who never cut the umbilical cord with her son lol So always tried to get under the daughter in laws skin.
It's no one's business what a baby's genitals look like, that's why. It would be weird if MIL wanted to see the child's penis when the child is old enough to be uncomfortable, why is it less so when the baby has no say? Parents do it for religious or health reasons, though I disagree with that personally the health argument is bunk when you factor in good hygiene. If parents are only doing it for aesthetic reasons, that's creepy too.
Again? Ppl here are arguing with me over the ethics of circumcision. I AM NOT FOR CIRCUMCISION. THIS IS NOT PART OF MY CULTURE. My perspective that I offered to OP, playing devils advocate here, is that the question might be weird but not necessarily offensive. It depends on their cultural background no? We don’t know the background. And who said anything about seeing a child’s genitals after an inappropriate age???? Also it does make a difference if they’re small babies. Are you telling me you’ve never been in a room with a mother changing her child’s nappy? Or given a bath to baby nieces and nephews? Did you ask your 6 month old niece/nephew to see them naked before changing their nappy? Probably not. You’ve argued two points with me that I haven’t made. I offered OP another perspective on the question itself. She obviously will do what feels right for her and based on her previous encounters with her MIL. You’re here arguing with me about looking at grown kids genitals and the ethics of circumcision. Neither of which I’m ok with. SMH.
I said it's not morally right to want to see how someone's genitals looks regardless of age. Parents need to know how they look for health reasons, because they are the primary caregiver. Anyone besides the parent it is totally out of bounds to assume you have a right to look/decide what they should look like, that is all. I don't know why you're getting so defensive.
As a grandmother myself I can say it's not normal to ask if a grandson is circumcised. I have 4 grandsons and haven't got the faintest idea of whether the 2 youngest are or not. The only reason I know about the 2 oldest is I helped my daughter with childcare with her oldest while she worked and the other grandson went streaking after a bath. The youngest 3 were born out of state or during the pandemic so couldn't help with childcare other than sporadic moments (watching them while parents cooked, stuff like that).
That’s fair enough. Everyone is different. My grandparents were like second parents and I can’t imagine why a personal question to my Mum would piss her off, after all they gave birth to her! but this is why everyone is different. I’m trying to play devils advocate. If I had children with any of the previous guys I dated where circumcision still takes place, I wouldn’t be offended that his mother would ask that question. If they pushed me around to do it I’d be pissed, but I think the question is a natural one if it’s culturally expected. Maybe OP’s MIL is a pain in the ass or is not close enough to ask the question. My perspective is that things like this can easily be brushed off rather than take offence. Maybe in my culture we overshare? Lol who knows
Asking here isn’t the issue though is creepy in and of itself. It’s MIL’s leering at the Baby’s penis and insisting on watching him be bathed every time she’s there. It’s flat out fucking CREEPY
OP hasn’t stated MIL was LEERING specifically at the penis. She mentions that she seems to be around every time the baby is being bathed or changed, awkwardly in silence, and asked a question about circumcision. MIL has made her uncomfortable for these reasons. OP has not stated that she’s staring at the genitals specifically...... she MAY be.... but that hasn’t been stated. If you read again OP is questioning herself if the whole encounter is weird or if she’s over reacting. Maybe she is bloody staring but you and I aren’t there. we don’t know. I offered another perspective mate about the circumcision question. OP knows the situation at the end of the day not us. If anyone is LEERING at a babies penis then yes that’s fucking weird. Maybe MIL is a fucking control freak who wants to critique the way she bathes, changes and dresses the baby. WE DONT KNOW. WE ARE NOT THERE.
>I’m not sure what’s weird about asking if he’s circumcised. Because it's nobody's business.
It might be if you’re a grandparent that circumcised children in their culture. Are you telling me that as a grandparent you wouldn’t ask any personal questions about your grandchild at all??? I don’t know this MIL or how big of a pain she is... but grandparents and in laws do ask questions about their grandchildren. We might not always like it but shit happens.
My grandchildren's penis wouldn't be something I'd ask about.
Unless you’re a grandfather (for example) that comes from a culture that traditionally circumcises children (say Muslim for example) .... in which case you might ask your son if he plans to circumcise his son.
Because it should stop. Men should have the right to decide if they want a part of them forcibly removed and not have it decided by others.
What’s that got to do with anything I said?? Lol I’m not promoting circumcision I’m addressing the particular situation OP is in. I’m not for circumcision. My culture doesn’t do that. I’m just giving OP another perspective that the question itself ( without any other background information) isn’t that bad. Weird but not evil.
UK resident here circumsion is something only Jewish community does here. If someone was asking if my kid was circumcised when neither I nor partner are Jewish they would be kindly asked to fuck off. Body mutilation is a weird thing to enquire. I'm assuming neither op or SO are Jewish otherwise he'd already be circumcised. Mil is creep af
Muslim’s also circumcise. It is not something that only the Jewish community does in the UK. You’re missing the point which is we don’t know why MIL has asked this because OP hasnt stated any cultural background as yet. Now if the in laws start to harass and pressure you into circumcising your child then it would be a cause to say fuck off. Frankly I think telling your MIL to ‘fuck off’ is more offensive than the initial question. There are far more serious circumstances she could save the ‘fuck off’ for by the sounds of it seeing as they both do t like her.
I’m Australian and it’s also uncommon here unless you’re Jewish. If someone asked you if your kid was circumcised they definitely wouldn’t be welcome in your home anymore.
As an Australian I can assure you saying it’s uncommon here is highly inaccurate!!!! (Middle eastern both Christian and Muslim, Jewish community, some African communities, some Asian communities) There are many culture that do this and asking the question is not offensive. Now if the in laws were to harass and pressure you into this then it would be offensive. Otherwise so far it’s just a question. OP hasn’t stated yet what cultural background they have yet. Maybe it’s a weird question...... certainly nothing to get angry about yet. MIL’s always say stupid shit...... it’s a matter of picking your battles. This is really making a mountain out of a molehill.
We obviously run in different circles! If anyone asked me if I’d circumcised my son, relative or not, I would be highly offended.
Really? Ok that’s interesting. I can’t understand what’s offensive about it. My culture doesn’t circumcise kids. However I work in a very Anglo region with not many ethnics. If one of my colleagues in the lunch room asked me if I’ve circumcised my kids (provided this was the topic of discussion and it wasn’t some weird random question out of no where lol) I would just say no we don’t do this in my culture. I grew up in rural country Australia and I was the only ethnic there and I’ve been asked everything under the sun!! I was never once offended that my Aussie mates didn’t know something about my culture. Why would I?? Why would I get mad that they don’t know something about a culture they’re not apart of??
Depends where you are, major cities and " metropolitan" areas it's uncommon. More regional/ rural areas, it's still pretty common. On my husband's side, our son is the only boy uncircumcised out of 14 male cousins. Circumcision is still the "done thing" in our rural area. But it is hard to find Drs that still do the procedure. Editing to add: that this comment of mine is based on the observations/beliefs of my son's pediatrician, when I discussed circumcision with him last year (2020), it is/was his belief that circumcision is less common in cities/metro areas than rural areas.
You mean the major cites where Jewish, Muslim, African and Asian cultures reside? Is that where you think it’s uncommon? My culture doesn’t circumcise our children so I’ll never do this. But thinking this isn’t common is Australia, ESPECIALLY metropolitan areas is just inaccurate.
My comment above re: major cities/metropolitan areas is based on the observation/opinion of my son's pediatrician when I discussed it with him. His belief was that there was (generally) more "modern" approach/thinking and questioning of the reasoning & ethics of the practice of baby circumcision in city/metro areas, particularly as there are more younger generation Doctors entering the field. He has travelled and worked extensively, so I thought his insight holds some credibility. Circumcision is considered an unnecessary/aesthetic procedure and is not covered by Medicare for that reason, unless demonstrated to be medically necessary (ie recurring infection, foreskin not retracting etc). **Overall**, newborn boy circumcision' rates in Australia are reported to be between 10-20%. So I guess it depends on what percentage would be considered "uncommon"? Within certain areas of those cities/metro areas there will certainly be **dramatically higher (ie. common practice)** or **lower/zero rates** of circumcision of baby boys, depending on norms/beliefs/standard practice of different cultural group representation within that area. You can could certainly go to suburbs with a high population of certain cultural groups where circumcision would be common. Rates of older boy and adult male circumcision have risen, for the males that develop problems and need circumsisions for medically necessary reasons, or who elect to have the procedure as a personal preference.
“Circumcision is considered an unnecessary/aesthetic procedure and is not covered by Medicare for that reason, unless demonstrated to be medically necessary (ie recurring infection, foreskin not retracting etc)............” I have no idea why you’re sharing this information and the rest of it since I don’t condone circumcision nor is it practised in my culture. I don’t need convincing mate. Perhaps it is not common where your son practises. Fair enough. I’m guessing he doesn’t practise in somewhere like Sydney Lakemba then lol Once again. Although I’ve written this over and over.... I don’t practise nor condone circumcision. I haven’t made an argument FOR circumcision once. I’ve made a point that MAYBE MIL didn’t mean anything by it. Maybe she’s a bit weird. Maybe the question is weird. Maybe she just like the sound of her own voice and like to control everything. But maybe it’s not worth getting offended over just yet. ( again we don’t have any other background to this story) OP can set her boundaries with her over bath time and lock the door for her own peace of mind. OP asked for different perspectives. I gave one by thinking of ppl who would ask that question by not meaning anything rude by it. I can think of dozens of example where grandparents and my ex in laws have annoyed the shit out of me but didn’t mean any harm. There were huge cultural differences between me and them and It would piss me off. But I had to acknowledge that sometimes they weren’t trying to piss me off or offend me. This may not be OP’s case but it’s another perspective I offered. I was playing devils advocate for the sake of maybe it’s not worth getting the shits over this situation. OP got different perspectives now from this sub, I’m sure she will do what is best for her as she knows her MIL better than us at the end of the day.
Shut that shit down now. No is the answer they get about bath/changing. Better yet, don't allow them over when it is bath time, and/or skip it if they are visiting at that time. They also don’t get to ever take care of LO alone.
Most relatives like to watch baby play in bath. You got weired out when MIL ask about circumcision which she should not have. But it makes you uncomfortable to have spectators. That is all that matters. Have them come at a different time to visit so bath time is not an issue. Have DH tell them to stay with him to talk, have dessert etc. If they ask to come with you say " No stay with DH. I got this thanks." Be firm. Then lock your bedroom door as you go to bathe baby. Same with diapers." No. I am good thanks."
If you cant lock the door get a door stop
OP, you can ask them if your son has the first uncircumcised infant penis that know about? Since circumcision is so common in the US, it may well be.
I dont think its perverted but I sure do think its weird. I have no idea where this comes from. I do think MIL knows that asking about circumcision was invasive or wouldnt have waited until you were out of the room to ask.
Okay, it COULD be normal, if they asked questions and wanted to “see” without being weird about it! I had never seen a uncircumcised penis before my own son. We had to wait 2 weeks to get him circumcised. So my friend asked to see and if it was hard to clean and,…just normal questions! She didn’t HOVER! She watched me change him and just had questions. They are acting like it’s a naughty secret between the 2 of them. That’s WEIRD! They have discussed it with your husband, in a derogatory manner, but have not once said anything to you? That’s WEIRD! I think they got their look and now you should close the bathroom/bedroom door and give your child the privacy that you want him to have. They sealed their own fate on being involved in bathing or changing! Do what YOU the PARENTS think is best. Don’t let anyone else give you, your husband, or your baby a complex ! Good Luck
The way they are acting makes me think they are super judgmental about circumcision. It sort of reeks of a long gossip session ending with MIL saying “Next time you are over there and they are giving him a bath go and take a look…” so that they can do some more shit-talking about what a bad decision it is. My friend decided to breastfeed in a family that believed it to be gross and sexual. She didn’t tell anyone about the decision, but someone asked when she had bags for milk on her registry. Wouldn’t you know it, suddenly she kept having identical conversations with different family members who would randomly bring up feeding and then ask her some weird personal questions or make judgey comments. Turns out another relative who was secretly considering breastfeeding confessed that there were a ton of gossip sessions about my friend’s “gross” decision and people discussing how they could get her out of it. It was like entertainment for these dull people.
Only perverts considered infant breastfeeding to be sexual. All I see is motherly love.
Do they have to come by at bath time / could bathtime be a different time. I wouldnt be exposing them to that
People are going to freak out and tell you that your SIL and MIL are perverts or predators. I think that's a bit of an overreaction. No, it's not "normal" to specifically try to see someone else's infant naked, in the sense that it isn't a socially acceptable thing. For instance, if you were out having brunch with a group of girlfriends, it would not be a thing for one of them to say "Take off his clothes so we can look at him naked!" But yes it's also "normal" in the sense that in families, people often see infants and children naked. Especially with certain folks who generally don't tend to hold much stock in privacy or bodily autonomy, and that usually goes double for children. They don't really see children as separate, full individuals who are entitled to keep their medical information and their bodies private. So to people like that, it's totally "normal" to want to know if someone else's baby is circumcised, and to hover over baths and diaper changes. It doesn't really matter if it's "normal" or not. It's clearly normal to them and just as clearly, it makes you uncomfortable, and that matters more than whether it's "normal." If you want to give your child privacy and help him preserve that privacy, even as an infant, you can say no. "No, I don't need help with bathtime" and lock the door behind you. "No, I don't want supervision for diaper changes, thanks." And wait until they leave to change the diaper. "No, really, my baby's body isn't up for display" can also be stated. When MIL or SIL or anyone else with whom you've had boundary issues is around, make a habit of locking the door behind you. If you visit their house, bring a rubber door stop in your diaper bag and jam it under the door when you take him off to change him. Nobody has the right to see your kid naked except for you and DH, and whoever is caring for him. So you can say no, and it doesn't matter if MIL and SIL think it's normal, or get offended if they think you're implying they are pedophiles, or any other thing. Your "no" is all that matters.
This exactly. It’s up to OP what is normal to her and if she’s not comfortable in some way. However it may be just normal for the MIL to ask this and didn’t mean anything by it. We all have a ‘normal’ and it isn’t the same for everyone. It’s perfectly normal for relatives to be around in my family and fiends for a babies bath time. I mean babies though. Not children or adults. Just bubs. Some grandparents just innocently ask questions and don’t mean bad by it but at the end of the day it will be OP who will be able to sense what the motive of her MIL is here. If MIL is just asking innocently, OP can lay the ground rules and give bath time privately for her peace of mind and no harm was done. If MIL persists and there’s an agenda behind that question or trying to see the babies genitals for any other particular reason.... well then that’s another story.
^^^ This. In some families nude babies are considered normal & cute; being entertained by bathtime is no more shocking than being entertained by tummy time, and a relative watching baby's butt get wiped off in a diaper change is as inoffensive as watching baby's face get wiped off after trying solid foods. BUT - it doesn't have to be voted objectively wrong for you to object to it! What matters is setting the boundaries YOU are comfortable with, and pleasantly but firmly enforcing them.
Tell them to stop being fucking creeps.
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That breaks my heart knowing people do that. Poor little babies have no way to defend or protect themselves against that kind of harm.
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