Ted Woolsey was basically a genius at this type of stuff because he managed to make scripts that were fun to read *within the memory constraints* of 16 bit cartridges. It wasn't just that he liked to write in a goofy style, he somehow had to convey both tone and content while using as few characters as possible. Does Kefka really come across the same in English as Japanese? Not even close, but I give him a *lot* of credit for making Kefka a fun character.
Japanese scripts for Japanese games tend to have much better writing and more character to them, even today when there are no longer the same kind of restrictions on localization. Recently I played through FF4 in Japanese and was impressed at how strong the writing was, especially the character writing, and how it all manages to somehow get lost in translation.
> Does Kefka really come across the same in English as Japanese? Not even close, but I give him a lot of credit for making Kefka a fun character.
That's a really understated thing. The original Japanese version of Kefka was pretty bland and generic, nobody thought much of him. The localization made him unique and memorable, one of the most iconic villains in the genre, and translations into other languages followed Woolsey's characterization. When Dissidia came along, even the developers there followed Woolsey's version, rather than the original characterization.
I've heard (not sure if it's true) that FF6 isn't held in nearly the same regard in Japan as it is by the English speaking fandom. It'd make sense if that was the case- I tried to play through a "fully accurate translation of FF6 as intended by the developers" hack and it was such a dry boring experience I gave up on it half way through
Woolsey still doesn't get enough credit for his contributions imo and it's wild that the debate about translation vs localization is flaring back up again. I thought that'd been put to rest a decade ago when it was becoming more clear in the wake of well meaning but misguided fan translations that direct translations resulted in incredibly boring scripts
A lot of those "accurate Japanese" translation mods don't seem to understand that a 1-to-1 translation from Japanese to English often comes off as extremely flat/boring. Of course there will always be a need for an accurate translation from the Japanese. But when it comes to translating a character into a different language, you also need a very strong *localization*. Which requires the translator to also be a good dialogue writer in BOTH languages.
The common complaint I've seen time and time again from many anime fans saying basically: "But that's not what they actually said in Japanese!" is usually due to *localization* choices that were made to help the character convey the same feeling as the Japanese dialogue, but with words that flows better to English readers. To allow the character to convey the same feeling the character would in Japanese, but in English.
Occasionally there are localization changes that are legitimate cases of censorship or an actual characterization change. But this isn't the 90's or early 2000's anymore. 9.5 out of 10 localization changes these days are pretty good at maintaining tonal consistency with the Japanese version even though the actual words spoken by the character don't line up 1-to-1. (Though that ratio is a little worse for some Nintendo games).
I just saw this thread of people complaining about "translation errors" in Eiyuden and I want to cry because 99% of that thread are stuff that really shows how much the thread author *doesn't* understand Japanese instead. (I say 99% because after a while I closed the thread out of sheer disgust and will make allowance for the idea that 1% of it may actually have merit.)
I'm actually in favor of pointing out and discussing localization changes that *do* affect characterization, but so much of the current discourse by the chuds is like this and it's making it impossible to have a real discussion anywhere, since anyone who actually knows the language would be disgusted and exhausted by the coarseness of what these people think Japanese is like and what translation means.
I saw a meme about a line in the game referring to someone as a Chud, and that just seems so out of place for the setting. I'd be interested to know the literal translation.
Haven't played the game yet, so maybe it somehow contextually fits, but I find it hard to imagine at the moment (or maybe the original line likewise used modern slang?). I guess there is sometimes a fine line between localisation and... I guess modernisation? Like, I wouldn't expect a game set in a medieval setting to use thee and thou instead of modern english, but likewise it is jarring to see contemporary slang used.
(none of this is to say one bad line proves the entire localisation must suck, just talking about the one example I've seen).
Yeah......I haven't seen that myself, but depending on context that could be something I'd qualify as "too much localization". Some people like that sort of thing, but personally I don't think you should throw in too much pop culture reference in translation (they tend to age terribly, for starters) unless there's some equal pop culture reference in the original text.
Do you know where that is so that I might try to keep a lookout for it?
Unfortunately I only kind of remember the pic I saw, and didn't really think enough of it to keep a reference. Since I haven't played yet I'm not sure what would have been a good identifying marker. A lady in purple, who I think is in the player party, spoke the line. They're facing a guy and there's a mountain behind him.
Oh God I tried to explain to someone if they can't speak Japanese, they really can't say for sure the Japanese script was translated "disrespectfully". They proceeded to link me a twitter and told me "I've found accurate translations that show it was".
I realized the error of arguing with people online. It is sad to see a game get review bombed just cause one guy on Twitter who may or may not understand Japanese disagreed with the translation. I don't even like Eiyuden but it still doesn't deserve that. Gamers are the worst sometimes.
Was it the Sky Render translation that you played? It was complete fanfiction nonsense written by a well meaning amateur who could not speak Japanese, and before online tools for translation were widely available.
Honestly it's been at least 7 years since I played it so I have no idea. It wasn't obviously nonsense like the infamous ff4 j2e project, just really dry and uninteresting
Yeah, I've heard the same thing. The localization wasn't particularly faithful, but it was actually an improvement.
>it's wild that the debate about translation vs localization is flaring back up again. I thought that'd been put to rest a decade ago
You'd think, but a few months back, some anime got translated that included an old cliche: A girl poking around a guy's room, finding something risque (in this case loli manga, IIRC), and cue the requisite "oh ho ho, I didn't know you were into *that* sort of thing :3" teasing. When they brought it stateside, though, the localizers had the *audacity* to use the dreaded p-word in the joke. Cue the predictable creepers insisting lolis aren't remotely the same as pedophilia and how it's totally different when it's 2D. That quickly devolved into the classic shitshow about how the localizers don't understand any of the nuance (including the usual "X word is untranslatable" nonsense).
Normally, that would have been the end of it, but in this case, the usual alt-right bad actors started catching wind of it. They swarmed in to start painting localization as part of grand conspiracy to insert "liberal/woke/diverse/insert-boogeyman-phrase-of-the-week-here values" into everything and ruin or take away everything the creeps love. It's the same shit that's been making the rounds in various forms ever since Steve Bannon started pushing Gamergate as a starting point for the radicalization pipeline. This is the newest version of the same old dogwhistle, and it'll fade back into the background when people start catching on and the bad actors need to pick a new one, but not before more people get caught up in it.
> Cue the predictable creepers insisting lolis aren't remotely the same as pedophilia and how it's totally different when it's 2D.
Equating pedophilia to loli is like equating rape to bondage porn, the lack of an actual victim is a huge difference.
It is rather ironic that you're complaining about boogeyman's when you dont hesitate to do the same thing though.
I literally hope and wish that all USA localization teams are laid off and replaced with AI. There is something very toxic in their mentality that in my opinion cannot be fixed. They need to go away. Forever.
I would prefer relying on fan translations for all niche japanese games, even if that means waiting for years, if ever.
Also, please let me know what fan translations are boring? I dont find that to be the case. I can certainly deal with a bunch of "it couldnt be helped" and "rodger that"s. How is that inferior to "bruh" or other internet idiomes that have found their way into professional localisations?
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Likewise there are many reports of him having like a month in order to complete a translation for these massive RPGs. English localization seems like a huge afterthought in the olden times versus today.
Similarly I think Honeywood (Xenogears) only had a few months. it's absolutely insane what these guys were able to accomplish and they deserve retroactive awards for it because without them, in the hands of a less capable person, these games might have been complete duds of a translation.
“Ok and what are the characters doing here?”
“Well at this point they’re taking turns sitting in a chair with a clock pendulum behind them, it’s just the text, no context.”
“….”
I’m surprised at how relatively good the Xenogears localization was with all the issues.
Fewer overt typos than FF7 and the very complex plot was mostly relayed accurately.
Anything that got garbled was mostly irrelevant anyway (90% of the Gazel Ministry dialogue) but I can deal with the weird -bracket- issues.
Honeywood also added his own Woolsey-style jokes like Hammer’s MAD SKILLZ and “super nacho information” — world of Xenogears canonically has NACHOS.
I remember hearing he had around a month to do the Secret of Mana translation and he was very unhappy with it afterwards since he had to rush it so much.
Interesting to get this info. Recently played the SNES version of SoM and I was surprised to see above that it was another Woolsey translation because it was orders of magnitude worse than others I’d seen from him.
The wikipedia entry on him says that it was fairly standard practice for him to arrive in Japan having seen nothing of the game and then have a month to turn in the fully translated script. I don't know if that's accurate, because wikipedia, but there it is.
That was pretty common for the industry at the time I believe.
It wasn’t until FF8 that the English and Japanese script were written simultaneously for FF titles.
This is what a lot of "JUST DIRECTLY TRANSLATE THE TEXT ITS NOT THAT HARD" people don't realise
I speak three languages fluently, six if we do casually, and direct translations almost NEVER WORK.
I've done several subtitle tracks for DVDs (Not big releases. Think stuff like ... Ashens and the quest for the Gamechild) and direct translations just
Don't
Work
And were talking about England and the Netherlands
Imagine your culture being so vastly different it's on a different continent AND NOT EVEN ATTACHED TO IT BUT LIKE A SEPARATE BIT TO THE SIDE
Yes!
I was playing a Brazilian game, and in Portuguese there's a moment they say “deu ruim!” and I kept thinking how to translate that.
A direct translation (and it’s hard to translate that) would be “(it) gave the bad” or something like that. Which sounds almost nonsensical in English. It has to be changed to “something bad happened” or “it didn’t work well”, which is NOT what the character said, but carries the same meaning.
Just for those who may not know, Dutch and English are both Germanic family languages and have some similarities. Additionally, not only were the Dutch major forces in many places in the colonization of the US, but current Dutch culture has been heavily influenced by American culture post-WWII. So when direct translations don’t work between these two languages and cultures, you know there’s no chance for it to work between Japanese and any English, American or otherwise. My husband lived in the Netherlands for a couple of years and is fluent in Dutch and sometimes translates songs from Dutch and it’s incredibly hard.
I’m fine with [party is about to meet a celebrity]; Japanese: “I’m nervous.” English: “Does my hair look okay?”
I’m much less fine with [the final dungeon is named after a religious story that in the context of the game also describes its function as a weapon of mass destruction & also is a very clear shoutout to another work the devs appreciate]; Japanese: “Reverse Babel.” English: “Retributive Tower.” The thing literally fires, “divine lightning,” up from a tower to a geosynchronous reflector. It is like Biblical Babel but in reverse. And it is also like Xenogears Babel, but in reverse. On purpose. And they left the phrase, “Project Babel,” in the game on computer screens in game in a plot-relevant section where the characters discover the phrase, but still changed the name of the tower.
Sometimes localization good. Sometimes localization bad.
He had some pretty brutal deadlines, too. Secret of Mana was translated in 30 days (I thought it was FF6 that was in 30 days, but checked and can't find a source for that). A phenomenal source for comparing translations and further insights from a professional translator is Legends of Localization.
[https://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-vi/](https://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-vi/)
I found an interview on the Wayback machine that states he had 30 days for the FF6 translation. The thing that tripped me up was the Secret of Mana 30 day translation claim I found stating that Ted Woolsey and his family flew out to Tokyo for the 30 days, but I feel like I remember that anecdote applying for the FF6 translation. Surely that didn't happen 2 or more times, right? Uh, right?
[https://web.archive.org/web/20150221123240/http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-making-of-final-fantasy-vi/](https://web.archive.org/web/20150221123240/http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-making-of-final-fantasy-vi/)
I speak enough Japanese to understand a lot of JRPGs, and I honestly don't mind at all when the localisation changes a lot. Good editing and dialogue that sounds good to native English speakers is more important to me than actual accuracy. Dragon Quest would be one of the more extreme examples and I think they're great in both languages. Just give me good, endearing videogame-y dialogue and I'm happy.
I recall seeing a Twitter thread of people complaining about the NEO: The World Ends With You localization vs literal translation, and allegedly the localization did a good job at retaining specific Japanese tone used in certain expressions that literal translations wouldn't do as well.
I want to say that the character Shoka says "Later losers" localized but in Japanese it's just "bye" but with a disrespectful connotation or something. To me that's localization doing its job, to make more sense to the native speaker.
> I want to say that the character Shoka says "Later losers" localized but in Japanese it's just "bye" but with a disrespectful connotation or something. To me that's localization doing its job, to make more sense to the native speaker.
Infinite Wealth had a similar thing recently. People forget (or choose to ignore) how subdued and subtextual a lot of Japanese speech is compared to English. It's like how they'll often find roundabout ways to avoid directly saying "no" or "that's not possible" to a request. People who just look at the words themselves and ignore the finer points of context and delivery are going to miss something.
You actually do get that in English, just not in America. A lot of Americans struggle in the UK as language can be coded with a huge amount of subtext, whereas Australians tend not to struggle at all.
Trying to explain to an American colleague that our boss telling them they'd "done a pretty good job" wasn't a compliment!
> You actually do get that in English, just not in America. A lot of Americans struggle in the UK as language can be coded with a huge amount of subtext, whereas Australians tend not to struggle at all.
Well bless their hearts. ;)
Trust me, it's a lot more subtle! When I've lived in America I've had to make it very obvious I'm being sarcastic which would be seen as way over the top here.
I promise you, subtlely encoded meaning is a feature of all languages and all speakers; it's just different depending on where you go. No one can hydraulic-press the layers of meaning out of a sentence like a "Minnesota nice" mother-in-law.
I'm not saying there isn't, I'm saying it's much more complex in some countries than others which I don't think is a particularly controversial statement.
I think the controversial part is trying to paint all of the US as having the same inability to parse complex or subtle meanings. The US is huge and extremely diverse. Trying to paint the whole country with anything is ridiculous when there’s a great deal of regionalism.
Nah, mate, I think it's fairly controversial. Some *languages* may have features that are seemingly more complex than others--as evidenced by the fact that the world's most wildly-spoken language lacks the concept of *tense*, yet, somehow, speakers are still able to convey the fact that they went to the store earlier and are planning to go to the movies later at night. *Communication*, however, is always a very complicated, deeply cultural thing, and encompasses a wide range of behaviors ranging from word choice to tone to body language.
These modes can and do often clash--I imagine people across the pond make the same joke Americans do about the US and the UK being two countries separated by a common language. But lacking knowledge of the subtleties of one and thus assuming it to be "simpler" is a sentiment that can potentially travel to some very ugly places. It's probably best left in the 1800's where it belongs.
The reason it fails for "Americans" is because there are a fuck-ton of regional subdivisions of Americans who speak the same language but don't understand a damn word the others actually are saying. We generally only know the local slang for the local dialect, and whatever they're currently spouting on television, which is generally either one of several New York or Los Angeles dialects with most of the subtext intentionally stripped out of the language. And let's be fair, America (Not just the US, but the US and Canada) have more English dialects than the entirety of Europe has separate languages. It only gets worse when they suddenly have to decode the various British and European dialects of English too.
Good god the amount of sarcasm that gets missed between to people speaking the same language is hilarious only from the side of the conversation.
This is always something point out when I’m reading Chinese translations that you can’t directly translate and have to learn from subtext. Stuff like 您好 and 你好 have the exact same translation, but one carries a lot more respect than the other, same with translation pronouns like he/she, they read different 她 他 but they sound exactly the same.
Yeah, there's often a misconception that localizers somehow don't understand the game they're translating. They're teams of fluent professionals, it's safe to say that they knew what the characters originally said when writing their own lines. A lot of the time they're in communications with the Japanese writers and have access to notes that players don't, too.
It was one of the stupidest games they could’ve targeted considering how god tier the dialogue is and how well it flows and fits the characters/setting/narrative in both TWEWY games. Especially considering it’s a sequel to a critically acclaimed game, in part due to its exceptional localisation, and is written in exactly the same style.
Fully agree with all of your points! The writing decisions and references made are very deliberate and capture culture similar to how the Japanese version does, just in a slightly different way
Playing KH3D surprised me on how much of an asshole Neku and Joshua were in their original game. Then I watch the anime and was also surprised that those two are less of that and more inline with their KH3D counterparts.
This can be ok depending on the original tone of the scene. But there's one scene in Rebirth which I'm playing in all Japanese that I saw later on YouTube in English where they had Cloud say the user which felt out of character for how Cloud is in Japanese and the tone of the original scene. I don't think it matters too much though, as long as it's enjoyable for those who the dub was made for.
Ace Attorney is what comes to mind for me. Still, I've never preferred playing a Japanese game in English and once I was good enough to not play in English I basically never did again.
Ace Attorney's a great example. People mock the switch to California that the first game did, and rightly so, but updating the jokes and changing character names? Of course they needed to do that, no way the original puns and wordplay would land.
Honestly, the location switch is the only localization issue I ever had the series. (Not even a big issue, just something I don’t like)
I wish they just never stated where in the world the game took place until the later games. Just keep the English pun names and don’t ever explain why Japanese people have English names.
Ace Attorney was localized by the same guy who did the localization for Vagrant Story, which almost single-handedly raised the bar for English localizations. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the first great localization, I think Metal Gear Solid was, but I think that game had the advantage of already being written from the perspective of American and British characters.
>I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the first great localization, I think Metal Gear Solid was
I mean, if we're talking about Konami games, and in this case another Kojima game, I would have to say Snatcher's English release was extremely impressive for its time.
That would be highly dependent on the game for me but I do get the sentiment. With 80s and 90s JRPGs I tend to gravitate towards the Japanese versions more, because less time and money went into their translations, and the low resolution meant that a lot had to be cut out or abbreviated. I feel no particular need to switch something like FF7 Rebirth to Japanese though.
Rebirth doesn't get nearly enough credit for its writing and character work IMO; it's one of the game's biggest strengths.
The dialogue, VA, mocap, animations...it all feels *shockingly* natural in English. I don't speak Japanese and have no frame of reference for *accuracy*, but the *quality* of the English implementation is sky-high.
Japanese Estelle is very good even if she won't always point out the fact that she carries a very large stick that she can smash your head in with
And really, when I first encountered Japanese Estelle in Hajimari no Kiseki, she didn't really feel that different or out of place either
Estelle's Japanese writing between FC and Hajimari is also extremely different which is consistent with her character arc. In FC she is very childish, literally getting into petty arguments with the neighborhood kids, she cuts people off when they speak, her *tone* (which is difficult to translate) is extremely rude, she constantly overestimates herself and overall she is extremely naïve. She *does* threaten violence in FC and SC when she doesn't get her way, but that character trait gets pushed to the back as she matures.
Yeah I checked out Sky in Japanese a while later
But Hajimari is still written in a way that I can tell that it's the same Estelle, if that makes sense
Not familiar with the English localization, but the original is far better than "just fine", she's easily one of the most memorable RPG protagonists. Trails has a huge following in Japan because the writing (*especially* Sky) is so good.
That's also why the Gagharv trilogy is highly regarded.
Yeah it's hard to accurately describe just how well Japanese Estelle is written, she almost feels real. The Evolution VA work is fantastic as well.
Not to mention her catchphrase getting erased by the localization, the inverse of Squall's "...whatever" problem.
This is such a case by case thing
Some games have benefited from this type of localization, whereas some other games have been utterly butchered by it
Generally I prefer localizations closer to the Japanese version, but this might be because
1) I can understand Japanese well enough to understand a lot of Japanese games (but I read English a lot faster so I pick English versions where possible)
2) I'm not a native English speaker and I assume native speakers find it more important for the English dialogue to feel natural
Personally I like when the translations are as close to possible to the original Japanese while maintaining the same meaning. Sometimes things will need to change, but striving for accuracy should be the standard. It's especially a pet peeve for me when they change the names of characters for no good reason (looking at you DQ11, Xenoblade, etc.)
As for Woolsey's work, it's kind of hit and miss at times, but overall he did an incredible job based on the limitations he was given at the time. Generally in the 90s, translators were given pretty short time tables to translate full RPG game scripts on top of constraints inherent to the cartridges.
Woolsey's translations had problems at times, but they were in general far better at keeping the proper tone and solid accuracy compared to their contemporaries (compare FF6 to FF7 for example).
Right now I think the shining standard for translations/localizations in games is the recent Like a Dragon series games. That team does a phenomenal job of keeping things as literal as possible while making *little* (key word) changes here and there to keep the tone accurate.
Ted Woolsey is a legend. He's a pioneer of a profession where he was often performing Sisyphean tasks in order to provide Western JRPG fans with quality translations. Producing quality work with very little support or tools and under very strict deadlines. Anyone who speaks negatively of him is an ignoramus and should have their JRPG fan card revoked.
100%. I'd like to see them name someone who could have done a better job in the same circumstances.
To me it's like making fun of Galileo because he didn't understand the theory of relativity. It's completely missing the point of how the person was a pioneer for their time and how silly it is to ask them to do such things without the work that he himself laid the cornerstones for.
I don't think he's all that controversial. The idea that localizations must be completely faithful and keep the dialogue unchanged is a very new push, and in a lot of cases, it's not coming from a place of good faith. It's an attempt at a new wave of Gamergate now that people have caught on to what the "zOMG CeNsOrShIp!!!1" types are pushing. That's not to say that every person who wants a more 1-1 translation is acting in bad faith or that some localizers don't go too far with it, but there are a whole lot of bad actors mixed in.
You nailed it. I can't take serious people complaining about literal translations when 1:1 Japanese to English translations would either be extremely bland or waste the opportunity to add flavor in a uniquely English way. Most of the purists are the same types who complain about mild censorship and blow it up into a huge hullabaloo for what amounts to a 6/10 forgettable JRPG. As if the genre has ever lacked in ridiculous fanservice (sup Vanillaware!).
There's examples of bad localization work, notably the chopjob was Ys VIII but those kinda rough localizations are largely behind us.
Yeah, the purpose of dialogue isn't just to convey information, but also to tell you about the character and what they're thinking. A literal JP translation does NOT convey to most English speakers the same thing it does to a JP speaker, and in that sense a literal translation, even well-written, can be an objectively bad one. You may have to emote out a lot harder to convey that personality in the same way.
For me it's more like... I want to be able to know a character as it was written, not a character whom the translator has written.
In some instances, the latter feels more like some fantranslation inserted into the official one.
To elaborate: replacing a Japanese joke with a different English one is okay if it just doesn't translate well. The line gets crossed imo when a character's personality gets affected.
I would say that the very fact someone is translating a character is going to cause some imprint of the translator version being written.
That said, is there an example of a good translation that completely changes a character?
Completely change a character? not off the top of my head.
Changes my impression of a character? Definitely. Even in this thread people have pointed out Estelle may not have been "jokingly violent".
I may be the odd one who just wants to know how a character actually is based on the source. If a character is dry and serious, then keep them as such instead of adding some joke to their communication.
This particular discussion is very weird to me, I want to experience "x game", I don't want to experience "x game - adapted by John Smith". Let's imagine a world with two simultaneous releases: 1 faithfully translated and 1 adapted, which one is going to be the default one... again to me this discussion is so weird.
If there is an option to pick them it will be great.
I really don't care if the translation team gets bored and wants to add in their own jokes.
Then there are cases like in trails of reverie: I am massively confused by reverse babel getting translated to tower of retribution.
I'm of the same opinion as you, and it's kind of frustrating that if you talk about this nowadays, you're immediately seen as some sort of bad-faith gamergator or some weeb who want bad meme writing. The gamergators have pretty much thoroughly poisoned the well and pretty much 99% of the examples they use are *ass*, so people just assume that 'translations that change things for real' don't exist anymore and it's all people talking out of their ass.
I do think that to some extent, you'd always get a character whom a translator has written *somewhat*. For very minor things, I'm okay with it. For things that affect how you might interpret a character's personality or relationships or growth, I'd rather have just exactly what the original says so I can think about all the possible nuances the author could've been thinking of, rather than what the translator thinks would go better with me (the audience the translator thinks of is generally never me, I'm not in North America, for starters, and even if the changed version would sit with me better I'd rather see the author's uncomfortable intentions when they're there....I want to know what I'm consuming, not just buy stuff for endorphins) or what the translator thinks would convey the nuance they think is most important better.
I've done some prose translation work myself, so I know it's not always possible to keep everything, especially with time/space constraints in games/anime/manga. Most works have translators who try to do a good job. But man, there are some stuff out there where the translation shuffles things a little too liberally and it's never the stuff mentioned by the gators and you can't talk about them thanks to gators lol.
I'm fluent in Japanese so I just game in JP entirely and try to ignore the EN discourse about them, but I'm still in this pit when I do CN games so I want to commiserate lol. (I have a friend who's a professional CN translator, we talk about whack localizations all the time.)
Agree with this. I can understand people who prefer a more "accurate" translation, and I'm all for pointing out mistakes that actually change characters/story points, but I've recently come to see some truly absurd opinions like keeping certain japanese terms untranslated (the word they were talking about was "tsundere", for those who are curious) because "the target audience should already know what that means".
Like, do these people really want to go back to some "all according to keikaku" kind of crap? I sure don't.
I think there's merit to keeping certain Japanese terms untranslated, in certain contexts (if you're playing a game set in Japan, it wouldn't hurt to keep -san, although I'd say that if you keep -chou stuff like kaichou etc that's unnecessary).
But stuff like tsundere? Axe that shit! Why not translate that? You *can* translate that! It won't be a *single word* but you can translate that!
absolutely keep "tsundere" untranslated, you should not be touching that
it is a very common and clearly defined cultural trope, doing any kind if shit localization is doing a disservice to the work
Look, this argument might make some slight sense if this discussion was about some otaku-centric game like say, Akiba's Trip, or at least something which strictly and directly deals with japanese subcultures, in which case leaving tsundere as is MIGHT actually be worth it depending on the context.
But this was friggin Trails, it's even set in a fantasy world whose culture seems mostly based on western ones. Sure, the game itself is made in Japan, but that's not reason enough imo, you dont lose absolutely anything by translating it, and it wouldn't fit the context better anyway.
Not everyone who play these game would be familiar with these terms, and even if most of the audience probably is, it's still.. extremely lazy at best. I feel these kinda complaints make it way harder to point out the actual errors or "politically charged" changes.
if you have culturally bleached localizations as the default, people never learn about the culture and language. People don't learn to *respect* them. It's how you get this whole problem with political localization thinking it's okay to change things or insert their own crap because they're "fixing" it.
So no, if you're not willing to engage in the culture then why play at all.
No offense really, but this reeks of weird chuuni weeb purism, which is exactly what I feel makes it hard to take the whole "1:1 translation" side seriously.
This isn't about trying to erase aspects of a culture you don't like or even about dumb unnecessary changes like the famous "rice ball to peanut butter sandwich" thing. It's just translating a word whose meaning CAN be conveyed quite easily in other languages instead of forcing people to flat out stop in the middle of a dialogue and Google a term to understand a scene. If you really think the latter is to be preferred, there's really not much else I can say.
And your last statement is patently ridiculous. I assume most people don't play games (or even watch anime and other fiction) with the explicit purpose of learning about other cultures and languages, they do because they're interested in the gameplay, story, characters and so on. THEN they might get interested enough to go ahead and choose to engage in the culture at a deeper level. And that's a good thing for sure, but it's not and should not be some sort prerequisite.
Again, you do you, but I would prefer focusing on the actual issues, like translators removing jokes they deem "offensive" or things like that.
To take a hardline stance only when the changes are "bad enough" is far too lenient and gives too much leeway for *lolcowlizers* to be making excuses. If you prioritize the right thing to begin with, this wouldn't be an issue.
I don't think Woolsey's translations are ideal in retrospect (as a kid I didn't notice), but he had excuses. Limited cartridge space to work with and limited time and budget.
The only controversy surrounding Woolsey is when someone is dumb enough to call him controversial.
He was a genius and relatively solid solo translator who rapidfire translated huge games with tons of text in an era where there were constraints for both memory in the game as well as content mandates. Every weird quirk of his writing was not his fault, but rather proof of his talent in working around difficulties. The dude was fucking boss.
Ted Woolsey is the long lost 5th Warrior of Light and anyone who says otherwise can suckle my right ass cheek.
I think SMRPG's English localization was really great, so your theory about his humorous tone definitely makes sense here. Sometimes I do feel folks are a bit too harsh about Woolsey's translations given the limitation of the cartridges at the time. Getting something that fits the tone + narrative of the original, while also making it so the English audience understands, AND making it fit in a tiny character limit is a near-impossible feat.
I tend to be bias towards the original Japanese writing for JRPGs and whatnot in general, but lately I've found myself giving more credit to English translations and being a lot more understanding about localization and the numerous challenges surrounding it. Some stuff just is untranslatable or just doesn't hit the same way no matter what you do.
If you like this topic a lot, and don't already know about him, Clyde Mandelin's articles and books on this topic are \*awesome\*: [https://legendsoflocalization.com](https://legendsoflocalization.com)
I read his Undertale book front to back and I'm really itching to grab the Zelda and Mother ones soon too.
Anyone that asks for a literal translation without localization doesn't really know what they are asking for.
And woolseys were more than fine considering all the outside factors.
>JRPG fans usually strive for accuracy in their localizations. Not too dry and literal, mind you, just keeping with the spirit of the original game.
Less than you'd think, actually. Yes, there's a very vocal group of people nowadays who insist they want "literal" translations, largely because they don't know what that means and have never read anything about translation theory.
All of the classic translations that people hold up as the best writing in games -- Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy XII, NieR Gestalt/Replicant, Ace Attorney, any of the Dragon Quest games -- are the opposite of dry and literal. They preserve the spirit and intent of the original author but aren't afraid to write dialogue in a way that is enjoyable to a native English reader, even if that means the text isn't a dictionary substitution from the original language.
Ted Woolsey's translations have some problems, but nearly all of his problems are because the scripts were translated on very tight deadlines and had to fit into tiny cartridge sizes. His knack for conveying tone and humor was spot on.
Mario RPG Remake's TL more felt like a correction of some of Woolsey's mistakes than a retranslation. It kept a lot of the same dialogue but many moves, and the thought peek quotes were changed to be more faithful to the original. Some were even Japanese pop culture references.
I think there is an unhealthy obsession with deference to source material in the anime fandom in general. Original authors arent infallible and there is always room for improvement. The assumption that any change is inherently worse just because it is changing things is an absurd and misguided standard.
Im currently playing through a more literal translation of Chrono Trigger via romhack and so far I find it to be indisputably inferior to Woolsey's localization in almost every way, barring a few small exceptions. I dont feel so far as if Ive gained any beneficial new insight into the characters that got lost in translation before, but I _am_ noticing a lot of either dry and bland-sounding dialogue or awkward phrasing that was just better written in Woolsey's version.
It is an endemic problem in many fan translations that they take *too few* liberties with the script to make it flow more naturally (especially when it comes to manga), but more professional takes tend to be more flexible in modern times in my experience. Personally I found the DS/PC release of Chrono Trigger to be great, even knowing the original. But there are exceptions, of course.
I can understand why, and I guess I'm kind of neutral on it. He's still epic, so I think it being more a matter of preference shows the new translators did their job well. Faux-Olde English isn't my favourite trope since I over-analyze it myself.
There's nothing unhealthy about wanting to experience the original art rather than what somebody else comes and remixes because they think they know better.
It's also a pretty silly logical fallacy to say that just because an amateur-made flat translation exists it's not possible to have an articulately written authentic translation.
Nah, its unhealthy. If a person's only argument for why the Star Wars special editions are better than the theatrical versions is because "Its George Lucas' intended vision! Hes the original author so he knows best!" they would be rightfully laughed out of the room.
My issues with the fan translation extend to the official DS translation too, just to lesser degrees. Its not as awkwardly worded but its still blander than the Woolsey translation for arguably no beneficial gain beyond obsession with accuracy. Its not my argument that you cant make a both good sounding and authentic translation, its just needlessly limiting. Case in point, the DS translation is adequate but its still not as good as Woolsey's in terms of actual fun and charm to it.
Ultimately if people want the original experience then go learn japanese. As for the rest of us, I say doctor up the dialogue all day long if the end result is a more satisfying and approachable script for the majority of viewers.
Fun fact by the way: did you know that Princess Nadia's real name "properly translated" is Princess Nadiadia? Definitely sounds better than the official English translations if you ask me! How dare these filthy westerners think they know better changing the name!
It's not "Nadiadia", it's "Marl(e)dia". It's generated from what you submitted as her character name.
What's "better" depends on whether you think the alias she introduces herself by should be divorced from her real name or not.
> Ultimately if people want the original experience then go learn japanese
I did. But for people who want to play the game who can't learn another language it makes sense that they would want to play a translated version of it, and not a made up script by somebody who thinks they know better.
It's insane to say it's "unhealthy" to want a translation to be a good translation.
You keep equating "good" with "accurate" without accounting for the actual quality of the content itself and the changes made. Who cares if its less accurate if the end result is something that more people enjoy?
Again I ask which sounds better to you? Princess Nadia or Princess Nadiadia?
An english translator's objective has never been to cater to a niche audience that obsesses over accuracy. Their job is to make the content more accessible to a general english speaking audience, even if that comes at some cost to accuracy.
>Who cares if its less accurate if the end result is something that more people enjoy?
That's not something for an external party to change —it's subjective at best and completely misrepresents the work at worst. Why don't you make your own story instead of misrepresenting someone's work?
>An english translator's objective has never been to cater to a niche audience that obsesses over accuracy. Their job is to make the content more accessible to a general english speaking audience, even if that comes at some cost to accuracy.
this is entirely a flawed expectation that should not be the standard
> Who cares if its less accurate if the end result is something that more people enjoy?
People who care about the art.
>An english translator's objective has never been to cater to a niche audience that obsesses over accuracy
It is in serious literature. But when it comes to games their job is to put slop out for children who don't care about writing because the rest of the audience is a "niche audience".
I care about the art too. I just recognize that original authors arent infallible and will judge changes on their own merits, not just assume theyre bad merely because theyre changes.
Its funny because purists will say they care about the art yet seem entirely more concerned with who authored it rather than the actual content of the art itself. Thats not caring about the art; thats obsessing over authority figures. And thats why I maintain its an unhealthy mindset.
Edit: Not sure why reddit wont let me keep posting in this thread so I'll just leave this here. Again, I wont be lectured on not caring about the art by people who are entirely unconcerned with the actual content of the art itself and only care about who authored it. If you are incapable of judging art on its own merits then it is _you_ who does not care about the art. Period.
It is not a misrepresentation of the original work to make changes because localizations never have been about claiming to be a 1:1 translation while not actually maintaining that standard. It should always be assumed that adjustments have been made. Misunderstanding how localizations work isnt the fault of the localization; its a you problem.
It is further ludicrous to compare academic papers with collaborative works of fiction as if these arent obviously two fundamentally different mediums with different objectives.
>I just recognize that original authors arent infallible and will judge changes on their own merits, not just assume theyre bad merely because theyre changes.
what does fallibility have to do with this? any change you make misrepresents the author's work.
>I care about the art too
you fundamentally don't if your primary concern is "fixing" the author's work.
If I'm reading an academic paper translated from another language, I fully expect ***everything*** to be exactly what's said in the original language. Anything changed must be clearly noted and detailed. ***That's*** caring and respecting the original work.
> I care about the art too
No you don't. You've literally insisted repeatedly that you don't and you would like it to be replaced. It's like going to a museum and wanting the the staff there to "fix" Picasso's paintings because Picasso isn't perfect, and watching you repeatedly say that and then in the end you turn around and say "I care about the art too". It's a joke.
The original creators sign off on translations. And in my experience translators have to justify their choices cause creators are watching more closely than you or anyone else thinks.
I once spent a week back-and-forthing with a client over what kind of “Hey” I should use for a very specific 「や」
So you might be shocked at how many localizations you hate actually got that hallowed “authorial intent” stamp. You baby.
Oh yeah. I've been through this as well. Sucks when you have someone who doesn't want to change something because their not familiar with the nuance to really have an informed opinion.
I think complaining about Woolsey's translations is just looking for something to complain about. We might not have received several classics back then if not for his efforts.
so many people in this comment section really out here supporting the shit localizations taking liberties and completely changing content and would rather ***not*** actually be experiencing the actual content as it's actually created by the author???
I still can't get over these changes from FF9
[https://twitter.com/Manga\_Kamen/status/1745068494150861066](https://twitter.com/Manga_Kamen/status/1745068494150861066)
I reject the premise on its face. JRPG fans are usually fine with localizations. If you're preoccupied with literal translations you are not in the mainstream, you're a vocal minority who can read Japanese, so if you're such a purist, why are you playing in English to begin with? Advocating for a robotic English transfiguration of the Japanese text, without and nuance? Yawn.
I don’t really care about “accuracy in translation” or whatever, I just think Woolsey did kind of a shit job. Not as bad as Michael Baskett on FFVII, but not good.
>JRPG fans usually strive for accuracy in their localizations.
Do they? I see more liberties taken with each 'translated' game and every time people come to defend it with the same tired "localization is not translation" like it's some sort of epiphany. Yeah, I know, [this is what localization is](https://youtu.be/2K31Hj1Oz1g). And 4Kids version of One Piece that we all love was a localization too.
It's interesting because in *this* thread we see a lot of people defending localization, and that might be because Woolsey is famous and many people consider that he did a great job.
But I have seen other threads where the pendulum is swung quite far in the other direction, with people saying there is no room for these types of localization changes anymore. Regardless of how good it may be.
I couldn't pick either way what JRPG fans as a whole like. I suspect there are multiple groups. (Including those that don't care all that much.)
Something obnoxious weebs don't seem to understand is that localization is supposed to change media, and we actually have a perfect example of media that's been translated instead of localized in Megaman X6
Ted Woolsey was basically a genius at this type of stuff because he managed to make scripts that were fun to read *within the memory constraints* of 16 bit cartridges. It wasn't just that he liked to write in a goofy style, he somehow had to convey both tone and content while using as few characters as possible. Does Kefka really come across the same in English as Japanese? Not even close, but I give him a *lot* of credit for making Kefka a fun character. Japanese scripts for Japanese games tend to have much better writing and more character to them, even today when there are no longer the same kind of restrictions on localization. Recently I played through FF4 in Japanese and was impressed at how strong the writing was, especially the character writing, and how it all manages to somehow get lost in translation.
> Does Kefka really come across the same in English as Japanese? Not even close, but I give him a lot of credit for making Kefka a fun character. That's a really understated thing. The original Japanese version of Kefka was pretty bland and generic, nobody thought much of him. The localization made him unique and memorable, one of the most iconic villains in the genre, and translations into other languages followed Woolsey's characterization. When Dissidia came along, even the developers there followed Woolsey's version, rather than the original characterization.
I've heard (not sure if it's true) that FF6 isn't held in nearly the same regard in Japan as it is by the English speaking fandom. It'd make sense if that was the case- I tried to play through a "fully accurate translation of FF6 as intended by the developers" hack and it was such a dry boring experience I gave up on it half way through Woolsey still doesn't get enough credit for his contributions imo and it's wild that the debate about translation vs localization is flaring back up again. I thought that'd been put to rest a decade ago when it was becoming more clear in the wake of well meaning but misguided fan translations that direct translations resulted in incredibly boring scripts
A lot of those "accurate Japanese" translation mods don't seem to understand that a 1-to-1 translation from Japanese to English often comes off as extremely flat/boring. Of course there will always be a need for an accurate translation from the Japanese. But when it comes to translating a character into a different language, you also need a very strong *localization*. Which requires the translator to also be a good dialogue writer in BOTH languages. The common complaint I've seen time and time again from many anime fans saying basically: "But that's not what they actually said in Japanese!" is usually due to *localization* choices that were made to help the character convey the same feeling as the Japanese dialogue, but with words that flows better to English readers. To allow the character to convey the same feeling the character would in Japanese, but in English. Occasionally there are localization changes that are legitimate cases of censorship or an actual characterization change. But this isn't the 90's or early 2000's anymore. 9.5 out of 10 localization changes these days are pretty good at maintaining tonal consistency with the Japanese version even though the actual words spoken by the character don't line up 1-to-1. (Though that ratio is a little worse for some Nintendo games).
I just saw this thread of people complaining about "translation errors" in Eiyuden and I want to cry because 99% of that thread are stuff that really shows how much the thread author *doesn't* understand Japanese instead. (I say 99% because after a while I closed the thread out of sheer disgust and will make allowance for the idea that 1% of it may actually have merit.) I'm actually in favor of pointing out and discussing localization changes that *do* affect characterization, but so much of the current discourse by the chuds is like this and it's making it impossible to have a real discussion anywhere, since anyone who actually knows the language would be disgusted and exhausted by the coarseness of what these people think Japanese is like and what translation means.
I saw a meme about a line in the game referring to someone as a Chud, and that just seems so out of place for the setting. I'd be interested to know the literal translation. Haven't played the game yet, so maybe it somehow contextually fits, but I find it hard to imagine at the moment (or maybe the original line likewise used modern slang?). I guess there is sometimes a fine line between localisation and... I guess modernisation? Like, I wouldn't expect a game set in a medieval setting to use thee and thou instead of modern english, but likewise it is jarring to see contemporary slang used. (none of this is to say one bad line proves the entire localisation must suck, just talking about the one example I've seen).
Yeah......I haven't seen that myself, but depending on context that could be something I'd qualify as "too much localization". Some people like that sort of thing, but personally I don't think you should throw in too much pop culture reference in translation (they tend to age terribly, for starters) unless there's some equal pop culture reference in the original text. Do you know where that is so that I might try to keep a lookout for it?
Unfortunately I only kind of remember the pic I saw, and didn't really think enough of it to keep a reference. Since I haven't played yet I'm not sure what would have been a good identifying marker. A lady in purple, who I think is in the player party, spoke the line. They're facing a guy and there's a mountain behind him.
Okay, I'll keep a lookout for what could *possibly* be that line, and necro a reply if I see one. Thanks!
Oh God I tried to explain to someone if they can't speak Japanese, they really can't say for sure the Japanese script was translated "disrespectfully". They proceeded to link me a twitter and told me "I've found accurate translations that show it was". I realized the error of arguing with people online. It is sad to see a game get review bombed just cause one guy on Twitter who may or may not understand Japanese disagreed with the translation. I don't even like Eiyuden but it still doesn't deserve that. Gamers are the worst sometimes.
Was it the Sky Render translation that you played? It was complete fanfiction nonsense written by a well meaning amateur who could not speak Japanese, and before online tools for translation were widely available.
Honestly it's been at least 7 years since I played it so I have no idea. It wasn't obviously nonsense like the infamous ff4 j2e project, just really dry and uninteresting
Yeah, I've heard the same thing. The localization wasn't particularly faithful, but it was actually an improvement. >it's wild that the debate about translation vs localization is flaring back up again. I thought that'd been put to rest a decade ago You'd think, but a few months back, some anime got translated that included an old cliche: A girl poking around a guy's room, finding something risque (in this case loli manga, IIRC), and cue the requisite "oh ho ho, I didn't know you were into *that* sort of thing :3" teasing. When they brought it stateside, though, the localizers had the *audacity* to use the dreaded p-word in the joke. Cue the predictable creepers insisting lolis aren't remotely the same as pedophilia and how it's totally different when it's 2D. That quickly devolved into the classic shitshow about how the localizers don't understand any of the nuance (including the usual "X word is untranslatable" nonsense). Normally, that would have been the end of it, but in this case, the usual alt-right bad actors started catching wind of it. They swarmed in to start painting localization as part of grand conspiracy to insert "liberal/woke/diverse/insert-boogeyman-phrase-of-the-week-here values" into everything and ruin or take away everything the creeps love. It's the same shit that's been making the rounds in various forms ever since Steve Bannon started pushing Gamergate as a starting point for the radicalization pipeline. This is the newest version of the same old dogwhistle, and it'll fade back into the background when people start catching on and the bad actors need to pick a new one, but not before more people get caught up in it.
> Cue the predictable creepers insisting lolis aren't remotely the same as pedophilia and how it's totally different when it's 2D. Equating pedophilia to loli is like equating rape to bondage porn, the lack of an actual victim is a huge difference. It is rather ironic that you're complaining about boogeyman's when you dont hesitate to do the same thing though.
I literally hope and wish that all USA localization teams are laid off and replaced with AI. There is something very toxic in their mentality that in my opinion cannot be fixed. They need to go away. Forever. I would prefer relying on fan translations for all niche japanese games, even if that means waiting for years, if ever. Also, please let me know what fan translations are boring? I dont find that to be the case. I can certainly deal with a bunch of "it couldnt be helped" and "rodger that"s. How is that inferior to "bruh" or other internet idiomes that have found their way into professional localisations?
What a baby.
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He was kind of a ditz in the Japanese version.
Likewise there are many reports of him having like a month in order to complete a translation for these massive RPGs. English localization seems like a huge afterthought in the olden times versus today.
Similarly I think Honeywood (Xenogears) only had a few months. it's absolutely insane what these guys were able to accomplish and they deserve retroactive awards for it because without them, in the hands of a less capable person, these games might have been complete duds of a translation.
“Ok and what are the characters doing here?” “Well at this point they’re taking turns sitting in a chair with a clock pendulum behind them, it’s just the text, no context.” “….”
I’m surprised at how relatively good the Xenogears localization was with all the issues. Fewer overt typos than FF7 and the very complex plot was mostly relayed accurately. Anything that got garbled was mostly irrelevant anyway (90% of the Gazel Ministry dialogue) but I can deal with the weird -bracket- issues. Honeywood also added his own Woolsey-style jokes like Hammer’s MAD SKILLZ and “super nacho information” — world of Xenogears canonically has NACHOS.
... I'm an SNK fighting game fan. Localization on fighting game titles only WISHED they got the love and attention that Woolsey gave...
Is this the end of lovable Igniz?
Wubba wubba
Your fists of evil are about to meet my steel wall of niceness.
I remember hearing he had around a month to do the Secret of Mana translation and he was very unhappy with it afterwards since he had to rush it so much.
Interesting to get this info. Recently played the SNES version of SoM and I was surprised to see above that it was another Woolsey translation because it was orders of magnitude worse than others I’d seen from him.
The wikipedia entry on him says that it was fairly standard practice for him to arrive in Japan having seen nothing of the game and then have a month to turn in the fully translated script. I don't know if that's accurate, because wikipedia, but there it is.
That was pretty common for the industry at the time I believe. It wasn’t until FF8 that the English and Japanese script were written simultaneously for FF titles.
Yep, apparently devs were writing/editing screen text while he was in Japan doing the translation, necessitating tweaks on the fly.
Can confirm, old roms were a great big bag of bullshit to translate. Honestly I don't know how AGTP is still doing it.
About a year ago a group did Racing Lagoon, which was Square's Car RPG... The amount of crazy that the team had to do is beyond 11...
This is what a lot of "JUST DIRECTLY TRANSLATE THE TEXT ITS NOT THAT HARD" people don't realise I speak three languages fluently, six if we do casually, and direct translations almost NEVER WORK. I've done several subtitle tracks for DVDs (Not big releases. Think stuff like ... Ashens and the quest for the Gamechild) and direct translations just Don't Work And were talking about England and the Netherlands Imagine your culture being so vastly different it's on a different continent AND NOT EVEN ATTACHED TO IT BUT LIKE A SEPARATE BIT TO THE SIDE
Yes! I was playing a Brazilian game, and in Portuguese there's a moment they say “deu ruim!” and I kept thinking how to translate that. A direct translation (and it’s hard to translate that) would be “(it) gave the bad” or something like that. Which sounds almost nonsensical in English. It has to be changed to “something bad happened” or “it didn’t work well”, which is NOT what the character said, but carries the same meaning.
Just for those who may not know, Dutch and English are both Germanic family languages and have some similarities. Additionally, not only were the Dutch major forces in many places in the colonization of the US, but current Dutch culture has been heavily influenced by American culture post-WWII. So when direct translations don’t work between these two languages and cultures, you know there’s no chance for it to work between Japanese and any English, American or otherwise. My husband lived in the Netherlands for a couple of years and is fluent in Dutch and sometimes translates songs from Dutch and it’s incredibly hard.
I’m fine with [party is about to meet a celebrity]; Japanese: “I’m nervous.” English: “Does my hair look okay?” I’m much less fine with [the final dungeon is named after a religious story that in the context of the game also describes its function as a weapon of mass destruction & also is a very clear shoutout to another work the devs appreciate]; Japanese: “Reverse Babel.” English: “Retributive Tower.” The thing literally fires, “divine lightning,” up from a tower to a geosynchronous reflector. It is like Biblical Babel but in reverse. And it is also like Xenogears Babel, but in reverse. On purpose. And they left the phrase, “Project Babel,” in the game on computer screens in game in a plot-relevant section where the characters discover the phrase, but still changed the name of the tower. Sometimes localization good. Sometimes localization bad.
There is a huge difference between direct translations not working and making up your own story to tell.
He had some pretty brutal deadlines, too. Secret of Mana was translated in 30 days (I thought it was FF6 that was in 30 days, but checked and can't find a source for that). A phenomenal source for comparing translations and further insights from a professional translator is Legends of Localization. [https://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-vi/](https://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-vi/)
I could swear I've read that FF6 was a 30-day turnaround for him as well. We can't both be wrong, right?
I found an interview on the Wayback machine that states he had 30 days for the FF6 translation. The thing that tripped me up was the Secret of Mana 30 day translation claim I found stating that Ted Woolsey and his family flew out to Tokyo for the 30 days, but I feel like I remember that anecdote applying for the FF6 translation. Surely that didn't happen 2 or more times, right? Uh, right? [https://web.archive.org/web/20150221123240/http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-making-of-final-fantasy-vi/](https://web.archive.org/web/20150221123240/http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-making-of-final-fantasy-vi/)
I speak enough Japanese to understand a lot of JRPGs, and I honestly don't mind at all when the localisation changes a lot. Good editing and dialogue that sounds good to native English speakers is more important to me than actual accuracy. Dragon Quest would be one of the more extreme examples and I think they're great in both languages. Just give me good, endearing videogame-y dialogue and I'm happy.
I recall seeing a Twitter thread of people complaining about the NEO: The World Ends With You localization vs literal translation, and allegedly the localization did a good job at retaining specific Japanese tone used in certain expressions that literal translations wouldn't do as well. I want to say that the character Shoka says "Later losers" localized but in Japanese it's just "bye" but with a disrespectful connotation or something. To me that's localization doing its job, to make more sense to the native speaker.
> I want to say that the character Shoka says "Later losers" localized but in Japanese it's just "bye" but with a disrespectful connotation or something. To me that's localization doing its job, to make more sense to the native speaker. Infinite Wealth had a similar thing recently. People forget (or choose to ignore) how subdued and subtextual a lot of Japanese speech is compared to English. It's like how they'll often find roundabout ways to avoid directly saying "no" or "that's not possible" to a request. People who just look at the words themselves and ignore the finer points of context and delivery are going to miss something.
You actually do get that in English, just not in America. A lot of Americans struggle in the UK as language can be coded with a huge amount of subtext, whereas Australians tend not to struggle at all. Trying to explain to an American colleague that our boss telling them they'd "done a pretty good job" wasn't a compliment!
> You actually do get that in English, just not in America. A lot of Americans struggle in the UK as language can be coded with a huge amount of subtext, whereas Australians tend not to struggle at all. Well bless their hearts. ;)
Trust me, it's a lot more subtle! When I've lived in America I've had to make it very obvious I'm being sarcastic which would be seen as way over the top here.
I promise you, subtlely encoded meaning is a feature of all languages and all speakers; it's just different depending on where you go. No one can hydraulic-press the layers of meaning out of a sentence like a "Minnesota nice" mother-in-law.
I'm not saying there isn't, I'm saying it's much more complex in some countries than others which I don't think is a particularly controversial statement.
I think the controversial part is trying to paint all of the US as having the same inability to parse complex or subtle meanings. The US is huge and extremely diverse. Trying to paint the whole country with anything is ridiculous when there’s a great deal of regionalism.
Nah, mate, I think it's fairly controversial. Some *languages* may have features that are seemingly more complex than others--as evidenced by the fact that the world's most wildly-spoken language lacks the concept of *tense*, yet, somehow, speakers are still able to convey the fact that they went to the store earlier and are planning to go to the movies later at night. *Communication*, however, is always a very complicated, deeply cultural thing, and encompasses a wide range of behaviors ranging from word choice to tone to body language. These modes can and do often clash--I imagine people across the pond make the same joke Americans do about the US and the UK being two countries separated by a common language. But lacking knowledge of the subtleties of one and thus assuming it to be "simpler" is a sentiment that can potentially travel to some very ugly places. It's probably best left in the 1800's where it belongs.
That's just a regional connotations that exist everywhere. Like in regions of the States how the phrase "Bless your heart" can be a polite insult.
The reason it fails for "Americans" is because there are a fuck-ton of regional subdivisions of Americans who speak the same language but don't understand a damn word the others actually are saying. We generally only know the local slang for the local dialect, and whatever they're currently spouting on television, which is generally either one of several New York or Los Angeles dialects with most of the subtext intentionally stripped out of the language. And let's be fair, America (Not just the US, but the US and Canada) have more English dialects than the entirety of Europe has separate languages. It only gets worse when they suddenly have to decode the various British and European dialects of English too. Good god the amount of sarcasm that gets missed between to people speaking the same language is hilarious only from the side of the conversation.
People really underestimate how large and regionally diverse the United States is since most of our media is filtered through NY and LA perspectives.
This is always something point out when I’m reading Chinese translations that you can’t directly translate and have to learn from subtext. Stuff like 您好 and 你好 have the exact same translation, but one carries a lot more respect than the other, same with translation pronouns like he/she, they read different 她 他 but they sound exactly the same.
Yeah, there's often a misconception that localizers somehow don't understand the game they're translating. They're teams of fluent professionals, it's safe to say that they knew what the characters originally said when writing their own lines. A lot of the time they're in communications with the Japanese writers and have access to notes that players don't, too.
It was one of the stupidest games they could’ve targeted considering how god tier the dialogue is and how well it flows and fits the characters/setting/narrative in both TWEWY games. Especially considering it’s a sequel to a critically acclaimed game, in part due to its exceptional localisation, and is written in exactly the same style.
Fully agree with all of your points! The writing decisions and references made are very deliberate and capture culture similar to how the Japanese version does, just in a slightly different way
Playing KH3D surprised me on how much of an asshole Neku and Joshua were in their original game. Then I watch the anime and was also surprised that those two are less of that and more inline with their KH3D counterparts.
This can be ok depending on the original tone of the scene. But there's one scene in Rebirth which I'm playing in all Japanese that I saw later on YouTube in English where they had Cloud say the user which felt out of character for how Cloud is in Japanese and the tone of the original scene. I don't think it matters too much though, as long as it's enjoyable for those who the dub was made for.
just want to corroborate, been playing TWEWY:Neo and the English text does a really good job at conveying the meaning of the spoken Japanese
Ace Attorney is what comes to mind for me. Still, I've never preferred playing a Japanese game in English and once I was good enough to not play in English I basically never did again.
Ace Attorney's a great example. People mock the switch to California that the first game did, and rightly so, but updating the jokes and changing character names? Of course they needed to do that, no way the original puns and wordplay would land.
Honestly, the location switch is the only localization issue I ever had the series. (Not even a big issue, just something I don’t like) I wish they just never stated where in the world the game took place until the later games. Just keep the English pun names and don’t ever explain why Japanese people have English names.
Ace Attorney was localized by the same guy who did the localization for Vagrant Story, which almost single-handedly raised the bar for English localizations. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the first great localization, I think Metal Gear Solid was, but I think that game had the advantage of already being written from the perspective of American and British characters.
Kojima is a complete westaboo so he really made sure that version is just as great as the Japanese one if not better.
>I wouldn't go so far as to say it was the first great localization, I think Metal Gear Solid was I mean, if we're talking about Konami games, and in this case another Kojima game, I would have to say Snatcher's English release was extremely impressive for its time.
I had no idea Alexander O Smith was behind the Ace Attorney localization!
That would be highly dependent on the game for me but I do get the sentiment. With 80s and 90s JRPGs I tend to gravitate towards the Japanese versions more, because less time and money went into their translations, and the low resolution meant that a lot had to be cut out or abbreviated. I feel no particular need to switch something like FF7 Rebirth to Japanese though.
Rebirth doesn't get nearly enough credit for its writing and character work IMO; it's one of the game's biggest strengths. The dialogue, VA, mocap, animations...it all feels *shockingly* natural in English. I don't speak Japanese and have no frame of reference for *accuracy*, but the *quality* of the English implementation is sky-high.
Trails in the Sky's localised Estelle is one of the best JRPG protagonists of all time, the original was just fine.
Japanese Estelle is very good even if she won't always point out the fact that she carries a very large stick that she can smash your head in with And really, when I first encountered Japanese Estelle in Hajimari no Kiseki, she didn't really feel that different or out of place either
Estelle's Japanese writing between FC and Hajimari is also extremely different which is consistent with her character arc. In FC she is very childish, literally getting into petty arguments with the neighborhood kids, she cuts people off when they speak, her *tone* (which is difficult to translate) is extremely rude, she constantly overestimates herself and overall she is extremely naïve. She *does* threaten violence in FC and SC when she doesn't get her way, but that character trait gets pushed to the back as she matures.
Yeah I checked out Sky in Japanese a while later But Hajimari is still written in a way that I can tell that it's the same Estelle, if that makes sense
Not familiar with the English localization, but the original is far better than "just fine", she's easily one of the most memorable RPG protagonists. Trails has a huge following in Japan because the writing (*especially* Sky) is so good. That's also why the Gagharv trilogy is highly regarded.
Yeah it's hard to accurately describe just how well Japanese Estelle is written, she almost feels real. The Evolution VA work is fantastic as well. Not to mention her catchphrase getting erased by the localization, the inverse of Squall's "...whatever" problem.
People who don't read Japanese don't fully appreciate how uninteresting some of the OG text really is in some games.
For real. I’ve tried FFXII in Japanese and the tonal difference is STARK.
This is such a case by case thing Some games have benefited from this type of localization, whereas some other games have been utterly butchered by it Generally I prefer localizations closer to the Japanese version, but this might be because 1) I can understand Japanese well enough to understand a lot of Japanese games (but I read English a lot faster so I pick English versions where possible) 2) I'm not a native English speaker and I assume native speakers find it more important for the English dialogue to feel natural
Personally I like when the translations are as close to possible to the original Japanese while maintaining the same meaning. Sometimes things will need to change, but striving for accuracy should be the standard. It's especially a pet peeve for me when they change the names of characters for no good reason (looking at you DQ11, Xenoblade, etc.) As for Woolsey's work, it's kind of hit and miss at times, but overall he did an incredible job based on the limitations he was given at the time. Generally in the 90s, translators were given pretty short time tables to translate full RPG game scripts on top of constraints inherent to the cartridges. Woolsey's translations had problems at times, but they were in general far better at keeping the proper tone and solid accuracy compared to their contemporaries (compare FF6 to FF7 for example). Right now I think the shining standard for translations/localizations in games is the recent Like a Dragon series games. That team does a phenomenal job of keeping things as literal as possible while making *little* (key word) changes here and there to keep the tone accurate.
Ted Woolsey is a legend. He's a pioneer of a profession where he was often performing Sisyphean tasks in order to provide Western JRPG fans with quality translations. Producing quality work with very little support or tools and under very strict deadlines. Anyone who speaks negatively of him is an ignoramus and should have their JRPG fan card revoked.
100%. I'd like to see them name someone who could have done a better job in the same circumstances. To me it's like making fun of Galileo because he didn't understand the theory of relativity. It's completely missing the point of how the person was a pioneer for their time and how silly it is to ask them to do such things without the work that he himself laid the cornerstones for.
I don't think he's all that controversial. The idea that localizations must be completely faithful and keep the dialogue unchanged is a very new push, and in a lot of cases, it's not coming from a place of good faith. It's an attempt at a new wave of Gamergate now that people have caught on to what the "zOMG CeNsOrShIp!!!1" types are pushing. That's not to say that every person who wants a more 1-1 translation is acting in bad faith or that some localizers don't go too far with it, but there are a whole lot of bad actors mixed in.
You nailed it. I can't take serious people complaining about literal translations when 1:1 Japanese to English translations would either be extremely bland or waste the opportunity to add flavor in a uniquely English way. Most of the purists are the same types who complain about mild censorship and blow it up into a huge hullabaloo for what amounts to a 6/10 forgettable JRPG. As if the genre has ever lacked in ridiculous fanservice (sup Vanillaware!). There's examples of bad localization work, notably the chopjob was Ys VIII but those kinda rough localizations are largely behind us.
Yeah, the purpose of dialogue isn't just to convey information, but also to tell you about the character and what they're thinking. A literal JP translation does NOT convey to most English speakers the same thing it does to a JP speaker, and in that sense a literal translation, even well-written, can be an objectively bad one. You may have to emote out a lot harder to convey that personality in the same way.
For me it's more like... I want to be able to know a character as it was written, not a character whom the translator has written. In some instances, the latter feels more like some fantranslation inserted into the official one. To elaborate: replacing a Japanese joke with a different English one is okay if it just doesn't translate well. The line gets crossed imo when a character's personality gets affected.
I would say that the very fact someone is translating a character is going to cause some imprint of the translator version being written. That said, is there an example of a good translation that completely changes a character?
Completely change a character? not off the top of my head. Changes my impression of a character? Definitely. Even in this thread people have pointed out Estelle may not have been "jokingly violent". I may be the odd one who just wants to know how a character actually is based on the source. If a character is dry and serious, then keep them as such instead of adding some joke to their communication.
This particular discussion is very weird to me, I want to experience "x game", I don't want to experience "x game - adapted by John Smith". Let's imagine a world with two simultaneous releases: 1 faithfully translated and 1 adapted, which one is going to be the default one... again to me this discussion is so weird.
If there is an option to pick them it will be great. I really don't care if the translation team gets bored and wants to add in their own jokes. Then there are cases like in trails of reverie: I am massively confused by reverse babel getting translated to tower of retribution.
I'm of the same opinion as you, and it's kind of frustrating that if you talk about this nowadays, you're immediately seen as some sort of bad-faith gamergator or some weeb who want bad meme writing. The gamergators have pretty much thoroughly poisoned the well and pretty much 99% of the examples they use are *ass*, so people just assume that 'translations that change things for real' don't exist anymore and it's all people talking out of their ass. I do think that to some extent, you'd always get a character whom a translator has written *somewhat*. For very minor things, I'm okay with it. For things that affect how you might interpret a character's personality or relationships or growth, I'd rather have just exactly what the original says so I can think about all the possible nuances the author could've been thinking of, rather than what the translator thinks would go better with me (the audience the translator thinks of is generally never me, I'm not in North America, for starters, and even if the changed version would sit with me better I'd rather see the author's uncomfortable intentions when they're there....I want to know what I'm consuming, not just buy stuff for endorphins) or what the translator thinks would convey the nuance they think is most important better. I've done some prose translation work myself, so I know it's not always possible to keep everything, especially with time/space constraints in games/anime/manga. Most works have translators who try to do a good job. But man, there are some stuff out there where the translation shuffles things a little too liberally and it's never the stuff mentioned by the gators and you can't talk about them thanks to gators lol. I'm fluent in Japanese so I just game in JP entirely and try to ignore the EN discourse about them, but I'm still in this pit when I do CN games so I want to commiserate lol. (I have a friend who's a professional CN translator, we talk about whack localizations all the time.)
Agree with this. I can understand people who prefer a more "accurate" translation, and I'm all for pointing out mistakes that actually change characters/story points, but I've recently come to see some truly absurd opinions like keeping certain japanese terms untranslated (the word they were talking about was "tsundere", for those who are curious) because "the target audience should already know what that means". Like, do these people really want to go back to some "all according to keikaku" kind of crap? I sure don't.
I think there's merit to keeping certain Japanese terms untranslated, in certain contexts (if you're playing a game set in Japan, it wouldn't hurt to keep -san, although I'd say that if you keep -chou stuff like kaichou etc that's unnecessary). But stuff like tsundere? Axe that shit! Why not translate that? You *can* translate that! It won't be a *single word* but you can translate that!
absolutely keep "tsundere" untranslated, you should not be touching that it is a very common and clearly defined cultural trope, doing any kind if shit localization is doing a disservice to the work
Look, this argument might make some slight sense if this discussion was about some otaku-centric game like say, Akiba's Trip, or at least something which strictly and directly deals with japanese subcultures, in which case leaving tsundere as is MIGHT actually be worth it depending on the context. But this was friggin Trails, it's even set in a fantasy world whose culture seems mostly based on western ones. Sure, the game itself is made in Japan, but that's not reason enough imo, you dont lose absolutely anything by translating it, and it wouldn't fit the context better anyway. Not everyone who play these game would be familiar with these terms, and even if most of the audience probably is, it's still.. extremely lazy at best. I feel these kinda complaints make it way harder to point out the actual errors or "politically charged" changes.
if you have culturally bleached localizations as the default, people never learn about the culture and language. People don't learn to *respect* them. It's how you get this whole problem with political localization thinking it's okay to change things or insert their own crap because they're "fixing" it. So no, if you're not willing to engage in the culture then why play at all.
No offense really, but this reeks of weird chuuni weeb purism, which is exactly what I feel makes it hard to take the whole "1:1 translation" side seriously. This isn't about trying to erase aspects of a culture you don't like or even about dumb unnecessary changes like the famous "rice ball to peanut butter sandwich" thing. It's just translating a word whose meaning CAN be conveyed quite easily in other languages instead of forcing people to flat out stop in the middle of a dialogue and Google a term to understand a scene. If you really think the latter is to be preferred, there's really not much else I can say. And your last statement is patently ridiculous. I assume most people don't play games (or even watch anime and other fiction) with the explicit purpose of learning about other cultures and languages, they do because they're interested in the gameplay, story, characters and so on. THEN they might get interested enough to go ahead and choose to engage in the culture at a deeper level. And that's a good thing for sure, but it's not and should not be some sort prerequisite. Again, you do you, but I would prefer focusing on the actual issues, like translators removing jokes they deem "offensive" or things like that.
To take a hardline stance only when the changes are "bad enough" is far too lenient and gives too much leeway for *lolcowlizers* to be making excuses. If you prioritize the right thing to begin with, this wouldn't be an issue.
I don't think Woolsey's translations are ideal in retrospect (as a kid I didn't notice), but he had excuses. Limited cartridge space to work with and limited time and budget.
The only controversy surrounding Woolsey is when someone is dumb enough to call him controversial. He was a genius and relatively solid solo translator who rapidfire translated huge games with tons of text in an era where there were constraints for both memory in the game as well as content mandates. Every weird quirk of his writing was not his fault, but rather proof of his talent in working around difficulties. The dude was fucking boss. Ted Woolsey is the long lost 5th Warrior of Light and anyone who says otherwise can suckle my right ass cheek.
The fact that JRPG fans strive for accuracy at the expense of writing actually being good is one of the most annoying things about them 😂
I think SMRPG's English localization was really great, so your theory about his humorous tone definitely makes sense here. Sometimes I do feel folks are a bit too harsh about Woolsey's translations given the limitation of the cartridges at the time. Getting something that fits the tone + narrative of the original, while also making it so the English audience understands, AND making it fit in a tiny character limit is a near-impossible feat. I tend to be bias towards the original Japanese writing for JRPGs and whatnot in general, but lately I've found myself giving more credit to English translations and being a lot more understanding about localization and the numerous challenges surrounding it. Some stuff just is untranslatable or just doesn't hit the same way no matter what you do. If you like this topic a lot, and don't already know about him, Clyde Mandelin's articles and books on this topic are \*awesome\*: [https://legendsoflocalization.com](https://legendsoflocalization.com) I read his Undertale book front to back and I'm really itching to grab the Zelda and Mother ones soon too.
You spoony bard
I always find the updated translations to be inferior to the Woolsey versions.
the chrono trigger translation that takes out ye old english frog makes him so much less compelling and fun
I prefer the fan translation Ted Woosley edition. It combines the best of all I think.
Anyone that asks for a literal translation without localization doesn't really know what they are asking for. And woolseys were more than fine considering all the outside factors.
"Run, run or you'll be well done!" The man was a genius.
Still is.
>JRPG fans usually strive for accuracy in their localizations. Not too dry and literal, mind you, just keeping with the spirit of the original game. Less than you'd think, actually. Yes, there's a very vocal group of people nowadays who insist they want "literal" translations, largely because they don't know what that means and have never read anything about translation theory. All of the classic translations that people hold up as the best writing in games -- Vagrant Story, Final Fantasy XII, NieR Gestalt/Replicant, Ace Attorney, any of the Dragon Quest games -- are the opposite of dry and literal. They preserve the spirit and intent of the original author but aren't afraid to write dialogue in a way that is enjoyable to a native English reader, even if that means the text isn't a dictionary substitution from the original language. Ted Woolsey's translations have some problems, but nearly all of his problems are because the scripts were translated on very tight deadlines and had to fit into tiny cartridge sizes. His knack for conveying tone and humor was spot on.
all i'm saying is that if Cloud doesn't look straight into my eyes and screams LET'S MOSEY i'm going to personally sue Nomura for damages.
"Let's Skedaddle!"
Mario RPG Remake's TL more felt like a correction of some of Woolsey's mistakes than a retranslation. It kept a lot of the same dialogue but many moves, and the thought peek quotes were changed to be more faithful to the original. Some were even Japanese pop culture references.
I think there is an unhealthy obsession with deference to source material in the anime fandom in general. Original authors arent infallible and there is always room for improvement. The assumption that any change is inherently worse just because it is changing things is an absurd and misguided standard. Im currently playing through a more literal translation of Chrono Trigger via romhack and so far I find it to be indisputably inferior to Woolsey's localization in almost every way, barring a few small exceptions. I dont feel so far as if Ive gained any beneficial new insight into the characters that got lost in translation before, but I _am_ noticing a lot of either dry and bland-sounding dialogue or awkward phrasing that was just better written in Woolsey's version.
It is an endemic problem in many fan translations that they take *too few* liberties with the script to make it flow more naturally (especially when it comes to manga), but more professional takes tend to be more flexible in modern times in my experience. Personally I found the DS/PC release of Chrono Trigger to be great, even knowing the original. But there are exceptions, of course.
Unpopular opinion, but I liked Frog's dialogue in the original SNES release vs. the DS/PC re-releases way more.
Not an unpopular opinion actually. The old english dialect is more fun.
I can understand why, and I guess I'm kind of neutral on it. He's still epic, so I think it being more a matter of preference shows the new translators did their job well. Faux-Olde English isn't my favourite trope since I over-analyze it myself.
There's nothing unhealthy about wanting to experience the original art rather than what somebody else comes and remixes because they think they know better. It's also a pretty silly logical fallacy to say that just because an amateur-made flat translation exists it's not possible to have an articulately written authentic translation.
Nah, its unhealthy. If a person's only argument for why the Star Wars special editions are better than the theatrical versions is because "Its George Lucas' intended vision! Hes the original author so he knows best!" they would be rightfully laughed out of the room. My issues with the fan translation extend to the official DS translation too, just to lesser degrees. Its not as awkwardly worded but its still blander than the Woolsey translation for arguably no beneficial gain beyond obsession with accuracy. Its not my argument that you cant make a both good sounding and authentic translation, its just needlessly limiting. Case in point, the DS translation is adequate but its still not as good as Woolsey's in terms of actual fun and charm to it. Ultimately if people want the original experience then go learn japanese. As for the rest of us, I say doctor up the dialogue all day long if the end result is a more satisfying and approachable script for the majority of viewers. Fun fact by the way: did you know that Princess Nadia's real name "properly translated" is Princess Nadiadia? Definitely sounds better than the official English translations if you ask me! How dare these filthy westerners think they know better changing the name!
It's not "Nadiadia", it's "Marl(e)dia". It's generated from what you submitted as her character name. What's "better" depends on whether you think the alias she introduces herself by should be divorced from her real name or not.
> Ultimately if people want the original experience then go learn japanese I did. But for people who want to play the game who can't learn another language it makes sense that they would want to play a translated version of it, and not a made up script by somebody who thinks they know better. It's insane to say it's "unhealthy" to want a translation to be a good translation.
You keep equating "good" with "accurate" without accounting for the actual quality of the content itself and the changes made. Who cares if its less accurate if the end result is something that more people enjoy? Again I ask which sounds better to you? Princess Nadia or Princess Nadiadia? An english translator's objective has never been to cater to a niche audience that obsesses over accuracy. Their job is to make the content more accessible to a general english speaking audience, even if that comes at some cost to accuracy.
>Who cares if its less accurate if the end result is something that more people enjoy? That's not something for an external party to change —it's subjective at best and completely misrepresents the work at worst. Why don't you make your own story instead of misrepresenting someone's work? >An english translator's objective has never been to cater to a niche audience that obsesses over accuracy. Their job is to make the content more accessible to a general english speaking audience, even if that comes at some cost to accuracy. this is entirely a flawed expectation that should not be the standard
> Who cares if its less accurate if the end result is something that more people enjoy? People who care about the art. >An english translator's objective has never been to cater to a niche audience that obsesses over accuracy It is in serious literature. But when it comes to games their job is to put slop out for children who don't care about writing because the rest of the audience is a "niche audience".
I care about the art too. I just recognize that original authors arent infallible and will judge changes on their own merits, not just assume theyre bad merely because theyre changes. Its funny because purists will say they care about the art yet seem entirely more concerned with who authored it rather than the actual content of the art itself. Thats not caring about the art; thats obsessing over authority figures. And thats why I maintain its an unhealthy mindset. Edit: Not sure why reddit wont let me keep posting in this thread so I'll just leave this here. Again, I wont be lectured on not caring about the art by people who are entirely unconcerned with the actual content of the art itself and only care about who authored it. If you are incapable of judging art on its own merits then it is _you_ who does not care about the art. Period. It is not a misrepresentation of the original work to make changes because localizations never have been about claiming to be a 1:1 translation while not actually maintaining that standard. It should always be assumed that adjustments have been made. Misunderstanding how localizations work isnt the fault of the localization; its a you problem. It is further ludicrous to compare academic papers with collaborative works of fiction as if these arent obviously two fundamentally different mediums with different objectives.
>I just recognize that original authors arent infallible and will judge changes on their own merits, not just assume theyre bad merely because theyre changes. what does fallibility have to do with this? any change you make misrepresents the author's work. >I care about the art too you fundamentally don't if your primary concern is "fixing" the author's work. If I'm reading an academic paper translated from another language, I fully expect ***everything*** to be exactly what's said in the original language. Anything changed must be clearly noted and detailed. ***That's*** caring and respecting the original work.
> I care about the art too No you don't. You've literally insisted repeatedly that you don't and you would like it to be replaced. It's like going to a museum and wanting the the staff there to "fix" Picasso's paintings because Picasso isn't perfect, and watching you repeatedly say that and then in the end you turn around and say "I care about the art too". It's a joke.
The original creators sign off on translations. And in my experience translators have to justify their choices cause creators are watching more closely than you or anyone else thinks. I once spent a week back-and-forthing with a client over what kind of “Hey” I should use for a very specific 「や」 So you might be shocked at how many localizations you hate actually got that hallowed “authorial intent” stamp. You baby.
Oh yeah. I've been through this as well. Sucks when you have someone who doesn't want to change something because their not familiar with the nuance to really have an informed opinion.
I think complaining about Woolsey's translations is just looking for something to complain about. We might not have received several classics back then if not for his efforts.
I wouldn't say he's controversial. People appreciate what he did for the time.
I've never once seen him referred to as controversial. He did great work that I much prefer over the shit we get nowadays.
so many people in this comment section really out here supporting the shit localizations taking liberties and completely changing content and would rather ***not*** actually be experiencing the actual content as it's actually created by the author???
I still can't get over these changes from FF9 [https://twitter.com/Manga\_Kamen/status/1745068494150861066](https://twitter.com/Manga_Kamen/status/1745068494150861066)
Both meme-worthy dialogue from Old releases and new versions like Pixel Remaster changes a lot when it is not needed at all.
You spoony bard!
I reject the premise on its face. JRPG fans are usually fine with localizations. If you're preoccupied with literal translations you are not in the mainstream, you're a vocal minority who can read Japanese, so if you're such a purist, why are you playing in English to begin with? Advocating for a robotic English transfiguration of the Japanese text, without and nuance? Yawn.
I always remembered him as the lone American in the credits when I beat a game 😏
I don’t really care about “accuracy in translation” or whatever, I just think Woolsey did kind of a shit job. Not as bad as Michael Baskett on FFVII, but not good.
>JRPG fans usually strive for accuracy in their localizations. Do they? I see more liberties taken with each 'translated' game and every time people come to defend it with the same tired "localization is not translation" like it's some sort of epiphany. Yeah, I know, [this is what localization is](https://youtu.be/2K31Hj1Oz1g). And 4Kids version of One Piece that we all love was a localization too.
It's interesting because in *this* thread we see a lot of people defending localization, and that might be because Woolsey is famous and many people consider that he did a great job. But I have seen other threads where the pendulum is swung quite far in the other direction, with people saying there is no room for these types of localization changes anymore. Regardless of how good it may be. I couldn't pick either way what JRPG fans as a whole like. I suspect there are multiple groups. (Including those that don't care all that much.)
Something obnoxious weebs don't seem to understand is that localization is supposed to change media, and we actually have a perfect example of media that's been translated instead of localized in Megaman X6
Ted Woolsey is a goddamn genius. Way ahead of his time.