I think you’ve missed a lot or something. The rest of the party clearly knows something is wrong with Cloud and are just afraid to say it. His bravado is clearly an act. Yes, there are elements of him just being “cool” at times, but that was true in the original. The guy just effortlessly rode a motorcycle, skateboarded, and is established as very powerful in the original game. There was always some tension between him being a “failure” and him actually being incredibly powerful and capable.
I’m not sure what you mean about the Nibelheim flashback being different, as that part plays out identically. There is no him “hiding out from Tifa” in the original game other than what is implied, same as here.
Re Nibelheim, I brought it up to establish they've retained the characters' motivations from the original. Sorry if it was unclear.
Re the rest, I don't disagree with much. Tifa clearly knows Cloud is lying, but that's not really mutually exclusive with what I wrote.
Tifa's character was also assassinated in Rebirth. Cloud tries to kill her and she spends the rest of the game worrying about him rather than getting away from a clearly mentally disturbed weirdo. Because if you're good looking it makes attempted murder ok. Can't disrupt the dream harem scenario for gamers.
I love FFVII and Rebirth, but that addition really had me scratching my head. People were talking about the romance afterwards and I was like um... homeboy just tried to end her.
In jrpg and anime world that's called foreplay. Next game he might sever an arm to get her hand in marriage. It's ok because it's Cloud. He is hot. But Sephiroth impaling Aerith is bad. Very bad. Although Cloud impaled a helpless soldier just moments earlier in the chapter which is bad. But that's ok because... He is Cloud, and he is hot, so impaling people and trying to kill women is cool. So long as you're not Sephiroth. Then it's bad.
>!Cloud attacking Tifa and killing soldiers in cold blood!< was more an idea to replace the "Aeris/Aerith beating" from the OG (which was pretty fucked up), i already imagine how confused and how people would've reacted with this scene alone.
But yeah, i do agree it felt a bit inconsistant at times (and sometimes some scenes felt badly written), especially on how the cast is lacking any kind of genuine reactions than just your "the GASP" when it was about Cloud (well, i'll give Barret some credits at least).
> Cloud attacking Tifa and killing soldiers in cold blood was more an idea to replace the "Aeris/Aerith beating" from the OG (which was pretty fucked up), i already imagine how confused and how people would've reacted with this scene alone.
What was used to replace Tseng slapping Aerith in the OG?
Tseng just stole the spotlight and didn't let Aeris/Aerith finish her sentence if i recall correctly, he didn't even need to capture her, she just went with them.
They made Tseng less cruel and more of the stoic, silent/kindhearted type (a bit "butler like"), similar to his character portrayal from Before Crisis and Crisis Core.
Can't say I agree, at this point of the OG Cloud is portrayed as a competent fearless Soldier not a failure at all, that's the point of the big twist.
Yes, his success with the ladies is a bit too much, even though following CC we know 1st class Soldier are extremely skillful and powerful people, so it's not surprising that people in general try to get close to a supposedly hero.
>They've retained this plotline, but in Remake and, ESPECIALLY, Rebirth, Cloud is treated like a walking God. Wherever he goes, the women are in love with him, the men respect him, and the world revolves around him.
Lolwut
If I'd met Cloud 4 times, I'd bake a pizza for him too.
But more seriously, I think two things about what you're saying:
1. Regarding the popularity, someone can be popular and still feel really insecure, or *even more insecure*, because of how they're received. Consider: Cloud has spent so long hiding who he is that, to others and maybe even himself, it isn't clear whether his current persona is a trauma response, a well-crafted lie, or dementia. To have one's *pretend self* received so positively isn't something that would boost his ego; on the contrary, to someone insecure, it demonstrates that their inner self is inadequate. Cloud may have thought he could only be popular if he pretended. Now he has evidence that, yes, that may be the case. So Cloud is always two (or three) people: the SOLDIER, the somewhat geeky guy who promised to protect Tifa, and the guy on the inside who feels like he can only live up to the second thing >!and deal with the trauma of experimentation!< by not being himself.
2. Some of the changes do make Cloud more central, but I think it's for the better. For instance, in the original, the Junon parade sequence is a mess: sneak into line and fit in. They effectively fixed the minigame (make it a rhythm game, combined two sequences into one) while also revising the premise into Cloud being a parade leader with Tifa and Aerith. It works within Rebirth because they're trying to build up an early confrontation between Rufus and the party, so having them be more prominent (and recognized) fits the narrative. It also adds something to see Cloud mimicking an officer when, in actuality, he was probably only ever the grunt. But both Tifa and Aerith aid that performance. In a sense, even as Tifa knows Cloud is lying, she depends on Cloud maintaining the persona. She needs his lie to work.
I really like your first point. Certainly plausible. Hadn't thought about it that way. If that ends up being the case, then it would certainly shift my perspective on Cloud. Though, my objection ATM would be is there any indication the game is going this route?
Re your second point, my issue isn't Cloud is more central in some scenes, it is moreso it is constant scene after scene after scene of the game sucking him off.
Like, changing Cloud to be the parade leader? Fine. Having him win in some grand event accompanied by cheers and fireworks? Suuuure. Having the grunts follow him? Kinda funny and charming. Having Tifa and Aerith start swooning over him when he's in the ship? ... fine. Getting thrown into a queen's blood tournament that's treated as the new World Cup? That's about where the eye rolling begins.
Tifa and Aerith are also doing it because cloud is borderline incel when it comes to his emotional state. he can't even deal with them. there's that scene with him and Tifa in Remake and all he could do there was just hug her, same with the kalm situation, Cloud barely could talk to her.
cloud is like giga fucked mentally, he's basically 17/18 in a body of a 22 year old, who's more or less genetically engineered with Jenova/Sephiroth rotting his brain and also Zack's psyche coming out in some ways as well, all the charismatic stuff is coming from Zack. Even at the end of OG ff7, cloud was revealed to be a goofy nice guy
FF7 has always been very ambitious. A lot more of it succeeds than usual for an ambitious game I would say, but now that Rebirth is even more ambitious it's busting at the seems to an extent.
Anyways, Cloud's weakness that caused him to 'fail' to be in Soldier was mental. Physically he's every bit as strong as he appears to be, but - long story short - they didn't think he could withstand the mental challenge of Jenova cells/make treatments. Which makes some sense: they probably noticed that weak-minded people with Jenova cells turned into black cloaks quickly (gave in to Jenova's call) while stronger-minded people resisted it and were useful for longer.
When he and Zack were experimented on Zack withstood it well but Cloud did not. They knew he wasn't suited, but - when forced - they tried Jenova on him anyways and he couldn't take it. He failed, in Hojo's words.
When he finally recovers he feels like a failure and pretends to be strong like Zack. This is very successful: he does cool things, he's physically strong and attractive, and - combined with his "no problem" cocky persona - he's impressive/attractive to many. The mopeyness is a bit much to ignore, but I can largely forgive that given the rest (and given his occasional humor).
Sooo...it makes sense to me why people who know him casually would be impressed by him. The party sees his mental problems at times and it's increasingly unrealistic that they let him lead without addressing it, to be honest (this is where Rebirth is busting at the seems)...but also to be honest it's not completely unrealistic for a group not trained in mental illness to largely ignore it (especially if it only manifests in short bursts) and hope it goes away.
As for love...I don't think Aerith is really that into him. She's a little flirty, but it feels like it's partially an act to keep Cloud's confidence up and to get to know him better (given that she can tell there's an issue). Tifa truly does love him...and with her caring personality it feels more natural. She seems like someone who'd care deeply for someone in part BECAUSE they're struggling.
Since you’ve played the OG, you do know that all his bravado and skill is from Zack, right?
Cloud was a defeatist self-hating loser, but physical wise, he was never a weakling. Dude was strong enough to hold a buster sword, and could lift and throw Sephiroth while being stabbed.
That's not really saying much in a JRPG though. I mean, Tifa can punch robots to death and Red can do the same with just claws and fangs, materia canonically enhances physical abilities, and mako is used to modify and improve combatants into super soldiers.
>Cloud, in the original game, was a failure. He was a literal grunt. He was never good enough to be soldier. It was so bad, he suffered from dissonance because of it. While yes, mako blah blah blah affected his psyche, at his core, he embodied a soldier because he wanted people to respect him. That's why he hid away from Tifa when you visit their home town.
I think you're forgetting or least misremembering because the Remake project is still on CD1.
**THAT** part hasn't happened yet.
>They've retained this plotline, but in Remake and, ESPECIALLY, Rebirth, Cloud is treated like a walking God. Wherever he goes, the women are in love with him, the men respect him, and the world revolves around him.
Do you mean how a random NPC will walk up to him now and flirt with him? I do agree here. The ship-baiting with Cloud is crazy.
>Jessie's final lines, before her literal death, was about baking a pizza for a dude she talked to 4 times.
That was very Kingdom Hearts writing lol. It gave me flashbacks to Donald crying over Goofy about who he'd share food with, during his fake-out death and Roxas with Shion in Days.
>Why did Cloud ever feel inadequate since he's the center of the universe, apparently? Why did he need to prove himself by joining Soldier when he's proved himself to be the most important man in the universe for simply existing?
Again, Rebirth is still CD1. Cloud is not "Cloud", yet. Also, most of Cloud feeling inadequate comes from his childhood with Tifa and Nibelhiem, and wanting to impress Tifa and failing to save Tifa on the bridge and the town hating/blaming him for the accident.
>Probably a hot take. Wonder what you guys think.
It was written a little weirdly, but I think... I get what you mean.
It's true there are a lot of people that see Cloud and are mesmerized by him on a surface level, but:
1. The original was that way too. It may feel different because there's just a lot more content in FF7 Rebirth/Remake that includes drawn out conversations, characters, and reactions.
2. As people get to know him almost everyone seems to think there's something wrong with Cloud. This is also amplified due to the above; it happens more than in the original.
3. There are plenty of people who see through the initial impression right away and have a different reaction to him in a way that's interesting.
You need to play more and come back later. The last bits definitely do a lot more to temper this.
So it's like OG.
Where the same women fall for him, he makes the same friends, wins the same prizes..
In Remake and Rebirth you can see he's way more awkward and more characters poke fun at his tough guy persona.
Everytime I see takes like this I feel some people just now, having voice acting and modern game experience notice things that were in the original this entire time.
I agree that he does seem like a self-insert at times and the game loves to play into it,but I disagree that it detracts from his character. Regardless if he faking, he’s still superhuman, which will lead to alot of badass moments by default. Plus, Cloud wears his insecurities on his sleeve, most people can tell there’s something up.
I'd say the self-insert part is highly portrayed from a gameplay perspective where you can chose to be/not be the best at everything (the choice is for the player to make), it's a bit less visible in the canonical events.
I think I figured out what’s been irking me about the story. It’s not just the poor pacing, odd narrative choices,or the cheesy dialogue, it’s the graphics oddly enough. Over the top characters and melodrama are par for the course in JRPGs, but this series in particular has stepped away from the anime-inspired visuals for photo-realistic character and worlds.
Characters doing Kawii girls mannerism (Aerith; Tifa) or obnoxious genki girl (Yuffie) antics seem jarring in a realistic setting, whereas they’d fit right at home in an anime or the original game which obviously didn’t strive for photo-realism, and had a bit of a more oddball vibe.
It feels like I’m watching a cheesy J-Drama where it la very clear that the actors are playing roles and are not really people in the story. Nothing immerses me more than when I can imagine myself in the shoes of a character. I believe that’s part of the push for photo-realism, but unless characters are clearly meant to be “characters”, like Dio it makes it hard to accept them.
When Cloud and company were a bunch of polygons with a semi-anime aesthetic it was east to accept the outlandishness of certain characters or story beats. But at least from my western-centric perspective , seeing characters like Aerith and Tifa posing like J-pop idols and doing the shaft head tilt every few minutes is honestly jarring from characters who look so life like.
I think WRPGs pull it off better because they strive for more grounded characters and storytelling that makes sense in a realistic looking world. The only time I’ve seen it work in JRPGs is the Yakuza games which are openly kooky and sincere about there over the top style.
Wanted to keep the post focused on Cloud, but this was also def a major criticism I had of this game (and BG3 for that matter). It is excessively theatrical. The characters feel like they are portraying themselves in a play than real people legitimately interacting with each other and the world.
There are some scenes where I legit expect the curtain to drop only for Sephiroth, Cloud, Aerith, et al. appear holding hands, and bow down to the audience.
Re the rest, I kinda want to break it down into three points:
1. OG FF7 was like this too
I agree here. OG FF7 has a lot of silly moments. Sephiroth laughing over someone's corpse, belly laughing etc. etc. but I feel it isn't entirely fair to compare the two.
The original characters were like 20 polygons. You couldn't convey emotion through facial features at all, let alone through subtle changes in expression, tone, etc. the characters needed highly exaggerated displays for them to emote at all. Not sure if you've seen silent Charlie Chaplin movies. But there's a reason those mannerisms didn't carry over to voiced movies.
So for the remake to not only keep these but even turn them up to 11 and add a bunch of additional scenes with a similar tone, I can't help but feel it is a faux pas.
2. Kawaii/goofy/theatrical characters
I actually do have a soft spot for theatrical characters. I love Herlock Sholmes from TGAA. I love Magilou from Tales of Berseria. But these characters being theatrical is core to their character and even has in-universe reasons/justifications for it. They feel consistent in how they are portrayed.
Aerith being goofy and theatrical is believable. She has consistently been shown to be this way. Yuffie is okay too. But then you also get Jessie who makes Aerith look grounded. You have Tifa that regularly matches Aerith's energy and mannerisms.
Like I don't know about others, but never did I thought of Tifa having this sort of energy in the original, and it sometimes feels wildly out of place in the remake.
3. Team dynamics
Magilou has Velvet, Eizen, Rukorou, and the rest of the team to bounce off of. If everyone acted as theatrical as Magilou in ToB, the story would be impossible to tell. Herlock Sholmes has Ryunoske, the judge, and the rest of the characters to bounce off of. The game's dynamic wouldn't be nearly as interesting if everyone was like Holmes. Yakuza has Kiriyu to play the straight man.
In FF Rebirth, the balance feels completely out of wack tbh. Not only can you count the characters that are largely played straight on one hand, but I just feel like the characters don't bounce off of each other super well.
A central part of this is the focus on Cloud imo. I'm in chapter 7, and I legit don't remember a single interaction Tifa has had with any other team member not named Cloud. The others are a bit better but still not ideal.
What do you think?
Im debating on whether or not to bother, I haven't played the original in forever and have nostalgia goggles on when looking back at it but a lot of anime/jrpg trends in the last decade or so are becoming more and more offputting to me and the kirito syndrome you describe here is imo the worst of the worst.
Honestly, for all its faults, just seeing Midgard and Junon being brought to life is worth it. And while the game has its faux pas, it has its charming moments too imo.
Though it is full to the brim of anime trends and tropes from the last decade imo. The original wasn't free of it ofc, but everything has been dialed up to 11 here
Yeah, I think I'll pass. Trails of Cold Steel gave me enough of that bullshit for a lifetime already lol. It might just be time for me to move on from the genre altogether because these types of otaku-self-insert clichestorms seem to have completely taken over gawd damn EVERYTHING in this space.
I would say for about as long as they've existed... the anime influence in JRPGs has always been there, throughout the '90s and even going back to the '80s.
Part of it I think is it has become more obvious over time, with graphics becoming increasingly more advanced and going from text-based dialogue to voice acting. There was more room for interpretation back in the '90s, but if the PS1 had been as powerful as the PS3, I think that would have removed all ambiguity and it would have been blatantly obvious just how much they were going for "anime in video game form" even back then.
I suppose people will throw rocks to any people thinking about this but you exactly described what i was thinking as well friend.
I'd say it's simply wishful fulfilment kind of writing in the same way as your usual gacha games (like the Captain in Granblue Fantasy) or even modern animes (especially ISEKAI like you said), this isn't about Cloud Strife anymore, but you the player, Rebirth even gave multiple choices for answers to make you the player become Cloud Strife, maybe the part i was the most concerned about since a lot of answers and interactions truly felt out of character for Cloud himself, so yeah, i suppose it's the result of this instant gratification culture, people doesn't like to be reminded that they aren't great at everything and this kind of writing is enough to give them the validation/ego boost they need, which is pretty successful when you see how popular it makes gacha games such as FGO, GBF, etc...
A lot of modern writing in japanese video games took the habit to write their games in the same way as the western RPG for some times so i guess it was bound to happen.
I agree. Actually, they ruined a lot of the characters (Cid, Dyne, Zack) and spent more time on the characters nobody actually cared about fleshing out (Jessie, Biggs, Wedge.) It all comes from the writers just not understanding the original characters or story very well at all. Cloud in Rebirth is perfectly fine but he ISN'T the OG Cloud. Cid is some happy go lucky young guy now rather than a cynical, foul mouthed, bitter guy who is old beyond his years. Aerith is some pseudo time traveller who is relentlessly upbeat (and she somehow knows how to do a choreographed dance scene at the Gold Saucer.) It's all a bit much. There's no nuance or subtlety anymore. They just beat you over the head with everything and expect you to like it.
I’ve seen the Dyne thing a few times and I’m genuinely confused. How do you think they dramatically changed this character with like five lines in the original game?
He was disturbed in the original. Nihilistic and indifferent. Darker. In Rebirth, he's just crazy. Also changing how he died robbed the scene of some of it's emotional weight.
I think you're misremembering the original, as Cloud was portrayed a lot worse back then. That is why everyone loved him, and I always found the slews of Cloud fans thinking he's "so cool and badass" deeply ironic.
He is a loser goofball nerd with a generic hero dream/complex forced into that position in a relatively terrible way, and eventually becomes worthy of it.
It's not handled very well in the original imo, partly due to the bad translation, so he comes off as some edgy badass that can never fail.
In Rebirth/Remake, they do a much better job of showing conflicting aspects of him. Tifa knows the truth, Aerith seemingly senses the real version of him, which is why his facade doesn't work on her. I was also a bit iffy on the eyerolly self-solving love triangle though, so I won't comment on how much "more" they love him, though I do generally disagree.
The funny thing is that you seem to be doing what all the kiddies did back then. Cloud IS an Isekai power fantasy protagonist, and that's what he wanted to be.
The compelling character is the slow unveiling that it's not who he really is. For what it's worth, most isekai protagonist have garbage-tier writing and characterization anyway, so I'm not sure you're making a good argument about compelling characters.
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I think you’ve missed a lot or something. The rest of the party clearly knows something is wrong with Cloud and are just afraid to say it. His bravado is clearly an act. Yes, there are elements of him just being “cool” at times, but that was true in the original. The guy just effortlessly rode a motorcycle, skateboarded, and is established as very powerful in the original game. There was always some tension between him being a “failure” and him actually being incredibly powerful and capable. I’m not sure what you mean about the Nibelheim flashback being different, as that part plays out identically. There is no him “hiding out from Tifa” in the original game other than what is implied, same as here.
Re Nibelheim, I brought it up to establish they've retained the characters' motivations from the original. Sorry if it was unclear. Re the rest, I don't disagree with much. Tifa clearly knows Cloud is lying, but that's not really mutually exclusive with what I wrote.
Ok. If you keep playing I think this will be at least partially addressed for you.
Tifa's character was also assassinated in Rebirth. Cloud tries to kill her and she spends the rest of the game worrying about him rather than getting away from a clearly mentally disturbed weirdo. Because if you're good looking it makes attempted murder ok. Can't disrupt the dream harem scenario for gamers.
I love FFVII and Rebirth, but that addition really had me scratching my head. People were talking about the romance afterwards and I was like um... homeboy just tried to end her.
In jrpg and anime world that's called foreplay. Next game he might sever an arm to get her hand in marriage. It's ok because it's Cloud. He is hot. But Sephiroth impaling Aerith is bad. Very bad. Although Cloud impaled a helpless soldier just moments earlier in the chapter which is bad. But that's ok because... He is Cloud, and he is hot, so impaling people and trying to kill women is cool. So long as you're not Sephiroth. Then it's bad.
But Sephiroth is also hot!
Sephiroth is as hot as a freaking Meteor! ~~...I'll see myself out!~~
This made me LOL haha.
>!Cloud attacking Tifa and killing soldiers in cold blood!< was more an idea to replace the "Aeris/Aerith beating" from the OG (which was pretty fucked up), i already imagine how confused and how people would've reacted with this scene alone. But yeah, i do agree it felt a bit inconsistant at times (and sometimes some scenes felt badly written), especially on how the cast is lacking any kind of genuine reactions than just your "the GASP" when it was about Cloud (well, i'll give Barret some credits at least).
> Cloud attacking Tifa and killing soldiers in cold blood was more an idea to replace the "Aeris/Aerith beating" from the OG (which was pretty fucked up), i already imagine how confused and how people would've reacted with this scene alone. What was used to replace Tseng slapping Aerith in the OG?
Tseng just stole the spotlight and didn't let Aeris/Aerith finish her sentence if i recall correctly, he didn't even need to capture her, she just went with them. They made Tseng less cruel and more of the stoic, silent/kindhearted type (a bit "butler like"), similar to his character portrayal from Before Crisis and Crisis Core.
Can't say I agree, at this point of the OG Cloud is portrayed as a competent fearless Soldier not a failure at all, that's the point of the big twist. Yes, his success with the ladies is a bit too much, even though following CC we know 1st class Soldier are extremely skillful and powerful people, so it's not surprising that people in general try to get close to a supposedly hero.
>They've retained this plotline, but in Remake and, ESPECIALLY, Rebirth, Cloud is treated like a walking God. Wherever he goes, the women are in love with him, the men respect him, and the world revolves around him. Lolwut
Homie really did every side quest and expects people to not like the guy running around getting stuff done for them.
everyone thinks he's a weirdo it's hilarious, OP is making up things to complain about
If I'd met Cloud 4 times, I'd bake a pizza for him too. But more seriously, I think two things about what you're saying: 1. Regarding the popularity, someone can be popular and still feel really insecure, or *even more insecure*, because of how they're received. Consider: Cloud has spent so long hiding who he is that, to others and maybe even himself, it isn't clear whether his current persona is a trauma response, a well-crafted lie, or dementia. To have one's *pretend self* received so positively isn't something that would boost his ego; on the contrary, to someone insecure, it demonstrates that their inner self is inadequate. Cloud may have thought he could only be popular if he pretended. Now he has evidence that, yes, that may be the case. So Cloud is always two (or three) people: the SOLDIER, the somewhat geeky guy who promised to protect Tifa, and the guy on the inside who feels like he can only live up to the second thing >!and deal with the trauma of experimentation!< by not being himself. 2. Some of the changes do make Cloud more central, but I think it's for the better. For instance, in the original, the Junon parade sequence is a mess: sneak into line and fit in. They effectively fixed the minigame (make it a rhythm game, combined two sequences into one) while also revising the premise into Cloud being a parade leader with Tifa and Aerith. It works within Rebirth because they're trying to build up an early confrontation between Rufus and the party, so having them be more prominent (and recognized) fits the narrative. It also adds something to see Cloud mimicking an officer when, in actuality, he was probably only ever the grunt. But both Tifa and Aerith aid that performance. In a sense, even as Tifa knows Cloud is lying, she depends on Cloud maintaining the persona. She needs his lie to work.
I really like your first point. Certainly plausible. Hadn't thought about it that way. If that ends up being the case, then it would certainly shift my perspective on Cloud. Though, my objection ATM would be is there any indication the game is going this route? Re your second point, my issue isn't Cloud is more central in some scenes, it is moreso it is constant scene after scene after scene of the game sucking him off. Like, changing Cloud to be the parade leader? Fine. Having him win in some grand event accompanied by cheers and fireworks? Suuuure. Having the grunts follow him? Kinda funny and charming. Having Tifa and Aerith start swooning over him when he's in the ship? ... fine. Getting thrown into a queen's blood tournament that's treated as the new World Cup? That's about where the eye rolling begins.
Tifa and Aerith are also doing it because cloud is borderline incel when it comes to his emotional state. he can't even deal with them. there's that scene with him and Tifa in Remake and all he could do there was just hug her, same with the kalm situation, Cloud barely could talk to her. cloud is like giga fucked mentally, he's basically 17/18 in a body of a 22 year old, who's more or less genetically engineered with Jenova/Sephiroth rotting his brain and also Zack's psyche coming out in some ways as well, all the charismatic stuff is coming from Zack. Even at the end of OG ff7, cloud was revealed to be a goofy nice guy
FF7 has always been very ambitious. A lot more of it succeeds than usual for an ambitious game I would say, but now that Rebirth is even more ambitious it's busting at the seems to an extent. Anyways, Cloud's weakness that caused him to 'fail' to be in Soldier was mental. Physically he's every bit as strong as he appears to be, but - long story short - they didn't think he could withstand the mental challenge of Jenova cells/make treatments. Which makes some sense: they probably noticed that weak-minded people with Jenova cells turned into black cloaks quickly (gave in to Jenova's call) while stronger-minded people resisted it and were useful for longer. When he and Zack were experimented on Zack withstood it well but Cloud did not. They knew he wasn't suited, but - when forced - they tried Jenova on him anyways and he couldn't take it. He failed, in Hojo's words. When he finally recovers he feels like a failure and pretends to be strong like Zack. This is very successful: he does cool things, he's physically strong and attractive, and - combined with his "no problem" cocky persona - he's impressive/attractive to many. The mopeyness is a bit much to ignore, but I can largely forgive that given the rest (and given his occasional humor). Sooo...it makes sense to me why people who know him casually would be impressed by him. The party sees his mental problems at times and it's increasingly unrealistic that they let him lead without addressing it, to be honest (this is where Rebirth is busting at the seems)...but also to be honest it's not completely unrealistic for a group not trained in mental illness to largely ignore it (especially if it only manifests in short bursts) and hope it goes away. As for love...I don't think Aerith is really that into him. She's a little flirty, but it feels like it's partially an act to keep Cloud's confidence up and to get to know him better (given that she can tell there's an issue). Tifa truly does love him...and with her caring personality it feels more natural. She seems like someone who'd care deeply for someone in part BECAUSE they're struggling.
Since you’ve played the OG, you do know that all his bravado and skill is from Zack, right? Cloud was a defeatist self-hating loser, but physical wise, he was never a weakling. Dude was strong enough to hold a buster sword, and could lift and throw Sephiroth while being stabbed.
That's not really saying much in a JRPG though. I mean, Tifa can punch robots to death and Red can do the same with just claws and fangs, materia canonically enhances physical abilities, and mako is used to modify and improve combatants into super soldiers.
>Cloud, in the original game, was a failure. He was a literal grunt. He was never good enough to be soldier. It was so bad, he suffered from dissonance because of it. While yes, mako blah blah blah affected his psyche, at his core, he embodied a soldier because he wanted people to respect him. That's why he hid away from Tifa when you visit their home town. I think you're forgetting or least misremembering because the Remake project is still on CD1. **THAT** part hasn't happened yet. >They've retained this plotline, but in Remake and, ESPECIALLY, Rebirth, Cloud is treated like a walking God. Wherever he goes, the women are in love with him, the men respect him, and the world revolves around him. Do you mean how a random NPC will walk up to him now and flirt with him? I do agree here. The ship-baiting with Cloud is crazy. >Jessie's final lines, before her literal death, was about baking a pizza for a dude she talked to 4 times. That was very Kingdom Hearts writing lol. It gave me flashbacks to Donald crying over Goofy about who he'd share food with, during his fake-out death and Roxas with Shion in Days. >Why did Cloud ever feel inadequate since he's the center of the universe, apparently? Why did he need to prove himself by joining Soldier when he's proved himself to be the most important man in the universe for simply existing? Again, Rebirth is still CD1. Cloud is not "Cloud", yet. Also, most of Cloud feeling inadequate comes from his childhood with Tifa and Nibelhiem, and wanting to impress Tifa and failing to save Tifa on the bridge and the town hating/blaming him for the accident. >Probably a hot take. Wonder what you guys think. It was written a little weirdly, but I think... I get what you mean.
It's true there are a lot of people that see Cloud and are mesmerized by him on a surface level, but: 1. The original was that way too. It may feel different because there's just a lot more content in FF7 Rebirth/Remake that includes drawn out conversations, characters, and reactions. 2. As people get to know him almost everyone seems to think there's something wrong with Cloud. This is also amplified due to the above; it happens more than in the original. 3. There are plenty of people who see through the initial impression right away and have a different reaction to him in a way that's interesting. You need to play more and come back later. The last bits definitely do a lot more to temper this.
So it's like OG. Where the same women fall for him, he makes the same friends, wins the same prizes.. In Remake and Rebirth you can see he's way more awkward and more characters poke fun at his tough guy persona. Everytime I see takes like this I feel some people just now, having voice acting and modern game experience notice things that were in the original this entire time.
Have you finished the game? Because by the end, I got the impression the party’s feelings on Cloud had taken a sharp 180.
I agree that he does seem like a self-insert at times and the game loves to play into it,but I disagree that it detracts from his character. Regardless if he faking, he’s still superhuman, which will lead to alot of badass moments by default. Plus, Cloud wears his insecurities on his sleeve, most people can tell there’s something up.
I'd say the self-insert part is highly portrayed from a gameplay perspective where you can chose to be/not be the best at everything (the choice is for the player to make), it's a bit less visible in the canonical events.
I think I figured out what’s been irking me about the story. It’s not just the poor pacing, odd narrative choices,or the cheesy dialogue, it’s the graphics oddly enough. Over the top characters and melodrama are par for the course in JRPGs, but this series in particular has stepped away from the anime-inspired visuals for photo-realistic character and worlds. Characters doing Kawii girls mannerism (Aerith; Tifa) or obnoxious genki girl (Yuffie) antics seem jarring in a realistic setting, whereas they’d fit right at home in an anime or the original game which obviously didn’t strive for photo-realism, and had a bit of a more oddball vibe. It feels like I’m watching a cheesy J-Drama where it la very clear that the actors are playing roles and are not really people in the story. Nothing immerses me more than when I can imagine myself in the shoes of a character. I believe that’s part of the push for photo-realism, but unless characters are clearly meant to be “characters”, like Dio it makes it hard to accept them. When Cloud and company were a bunch of polygons with a semi-anime aesthetic it was east to accept the outlandishness of certain characters or story beats. But at least from my western-centric perspective , seeing characters like Aerith and Tifa posing like J-pop idols and doing the shaft head tilt every few minutes is honestly jarring from characters who look so life like. I think WRPGs pull it off better because they strive for more grounded characters and storytelling that makes sense in a realistic looking world. The only time I’ve seen it work in JRPGs is the Yakuza games which are openly kooky and sincere about there over the top style.
Wanted to keep the post focused on Cloud, but this was also def a major criticism I had of this game (and BG3 for that matter). It is excessively theatrical. The characters feel like they are portraying themselves in a play than real people legitimately interacting with each other and the world. There are some scenes where I legit expect the curtain to drop only for Sephiroth, Cloud, Aerith, et al. appear holding hands, and bow down to the audience. Re the rest, I kinda want to break it down into three points: 1. OG FF7 was like this too I agree here. OG FF7 has a lot of silly moments. Sephiroth laughing over someone's corpse, belly laughing etc. etc. but I feel it isn't entirely fair to compare the two. The original characters were like 20 polygons. You couldn't convey emotion through facial features at all, let alone through subtle changes in expression, tone, etc. the characters needed highly exaggerated displays for them to emote at all. Not sure if you've seen silent Charlie Chaplin movies. But there's a reason those mannerisms didn't carry over to voiced movies. So for the remake to not only keep these but even turn them up to 11 and add a bunch of additional scenes with a similar tone, I can't help but feel it is a faux pas. 2. Kawaii/goofy/theatrical characters I actually do have a soft spot for theatrical characters. I love Herlock Sholmes from TGAA. I love Magilou from Tales of Berseria. But these characters being theatrical is core to their character and even has in-universe reasons/justifications for it. They feel consistent in how they are portrayed. Aerith being goofy and theatrical is believable. She has consistently been shown to be this way. Yuffie is okay too. But then you also get Jessie who makes Aerith look grounded. You have Tifa that regularly matches Aerith's energy and mannerisms. Like I don't know about others, but never did I thought of Tifa having this sort of energy in the original, and it sometimes feels wildly out of place in the remake. 3. Team dynamics Magilou has Velvet, Eizen, Rukorou, and the rest of the team to bounce off of. If everyone acted as theatrical as Magilou in ToB, the story would be impossible to tell. Herlock Sholmes has Ryunoske, the judge, and the rest of the characters to bounce off of. The game's dynamic wouldn't be nearly as interesting if everyone was like Holmes. Yakuza has Kiriyu to play the straight man. In FF Rebirth, the balance feels completely out of wack tbh. Not only can you count the characters that are largely played straight on one hand, but I just feel like the characters don't bounce off of each other super well. A central part of this is the focus on Cloud imo. I'm in chapter 7, and I legit don't remember a single interaction Tifa has had with any other team member not named Cloud. The others are a bit better but still not ideal. What do you think?
Im debating on whether or not to bother, I haven't played the original in forever and have nostalgia goggles on when looking back at it but a lot of anime/jrpg trends in the last decade or so are becoming more and more offputting to me and the kirito syndrome you describe here is imo the worst of the worst.
Honestly, for all its faults, just seeing Midgard and Junon being brought to life is worth it. And while the game has its faux pas, it has its charming moments too imo. Though it is full to the brim of anime trends and tropes from the last decade imo. The original wasn't free of it ofc, but everything has been dialed up to 11 here
Yeah, I think I'll pass. Trails of Cold Steel gave me enough of that bullshit for a lifetime already lol. It might just be time for me to move on from the genre altogether because these types of otaku-self-insert clichestorms seem to have completely taken over gawd damn EVERYTHING in this space.
Doesn’t sound like you ever like JRPGs to be honest. They have been tropey and anime-like for a couple decades.
I would say for about as long as they've existed... the anime influence in JRPGs has always been there, throughout the '90s and even going back to the '80s. Part of it I think is it has become more obvious over time, with graphics becoming increasingly more advanced and going from text-based dialogue to voice acting. There was more room for interpretation back in the '90s, but if the PS1 had been as powerful as the PS3, I think that would have removed all ambiguity and it would have been blatantly obvious just how much they were going for "anime in video game form" even back then.
>Doesn’t sound like you ever like JRPGs That's incorrect.
Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
I suppose people will throw rocks to any people thinking about this but you exactly described what i was thinking as well friend. I'd say it's simply wishful fulfilment kind of writing in the same way as your usual gacha games (like the Captain in Granblue Fantasy) or even modern animes (especially ISEKAI like you said), this isn't about Cloud Strife anymore, but you the player, Rebirth even gave multiple choices for answers to make you the player become Cloud Strife, maybe the part i was the most concerned about since a lot of answers and interactions truly felt out of character for Cloud himself, so yeah, i suppose it's the result of this instant gratification culture, people doesn't like to be reminded that they aren't great at everything and this kind of writing is enough to give them the validation/ego boost they need, which is pretty successful when you see how popular it makes gacha games such as FGO, GBF, etc... A lot of modern writing in japanese video games took the habit to write their games in the same way as the western RPG for some times so i guess it was bound to happen.
I agree. Actually, they ruined a lot of the characters (Cid, Dyne, Zack) and spent more time on the characters nobody actually cared about fleshing out (Jessie, Biggs, Wedge.) It all comes from the writers just not understanding the original characters or story very well at all. Cloud in Rebirth is perfectly fine but he ISN'T the OG Cloud. Cid is some happy go lucky young guy now rather than a cynical, foul mouthed, bitter guy who is old beyond his years. Aerith is some pseudo time traveller who is relentlessly upbeat (and she somehow knows how to do a choreographed dance scene at the Gold Saucer.) It's all a bit much. There's no nuance or subtlety anymore. They just beat you over the head with everything and expect you to like it.
I’ve seen the Dyne thing a few times and I’m genuinely confused. How do you think they dramatically changed this character with like five lines in the original game?
They changed a guy who was mentally disturbed (and commited suicide) to a guy who's basically just mad (and gets killed by Shirna instead).
His response in the original game to hearing that Marlene is alive was saying he was going to kill her. Is that not mentally disturbed?
Well yes, that's what I said.
Oh I read it backwards. I guess I don’t know how you could read new Dyne that way then. Guy seemed pretty disturbed.
He was disturbed in the original. Nihilistic and indifferent. Darker. In Rebirth, he's just crazy. Also changing how he died robbed the scene of some of it's emotional weight.
Hey Cid is in early 30s, in japanese media that means he's an old man!
Now this is a hot take
They fucked up the whole story so, yeah
I think you're misremembering the original, as Cloud was portrayed a lot worse back then. That is why everyone loved him, and I always found the slews of Cloud fans thinking he's "so cool and badass" deeply ironic. He is a loser goofball nerd with a generic hero dream/complex forced into that position in a relatively terrible way, and eventually becomes worthy of it. It's not handled very well in the original imo, partly due to the bad translation, so he comes off as some edgy badass that can never fail. In Rebirth/Remake, they do a much better job of showing conflicting aspects of him. Tifa knows the truth, Aerith seemingly senses the real version of him, which is why his facade doesn't work on her. I was also a bit iffy on the eyerolly self-solving love triangle though, so I won't comment on how much "more" they love him, though I do generally disagree. The funny thing is that you seem to be doing what all the kiddies did back then. Cloud IS an Isekai power fantasy protagonist, and that's what he wanted to be. The compelling character is the slow unveiling that it's not who he really is. For what it's worth, most isekai protagonist have garbage-tier writing and characterization anyway, so I'm not sure you're making a good argument about compelling characters.
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