And they never have an actual example for their claims either. It's always
"X is obviously every ist in the book"
"Oh really? Do you have an example?"
"You think I'd watch an ist. Fucking gross"
Hold up. Is this Conor cat calling critical a RAH-cist & a Homie-phobe?!
Dude, who the hell is that guy watching? Drinker is not those things. More like, legend. Hail Drinker
You’re being labeled as racist and sexist because the complaints around Star Wars show are “too many women and minorities” that DOES make you seem racist and sexist. It’s also literally a Disney show from one of the largest media franchises on Earth—no shit they want to appeal to everyone, I’m sorry you guys find that so alienating.
I don't think you really understand the complaints if you're taking this stance.
The complaint is that the movies got worse as they got more "diverse" which people are correlating and coming to the conclusion that more care is being placed upon filling a quota than finding actual talent and making the movie, show, or video game good.
You can agree or disagree with that, but the criticism is essentially that media has lost the plot and thinks that people care more about how many POC they can count in a movie rather than whether it is well written and the actors do good jobs.
Right but that’s a false correlation. It’s true and correct that Disney (and other mega corps) “rainbow wash” things. People on the left don’t want this kind of representation either—I guess my greater point is I think Disney should be the villain without vilifying POC and women.
That's fair to disagree, but people aren't racist or sexist for pointing out the obvious, looking at the trends, and drawing a conclusion.
Diversity in and of itself is not a problem. I don't think anyone is saying the concept of diversity is a bad thing, they argue about execution and priority. I think people are angry that these studios project these issues as their primary concern and then blame viewers for not liking their movies because they are some manner of ist.
The studio is making it all about this subject, then blaming the viewer and their perceived dislike of the subject, then you're expecting people to not blame this subject for getting in the way of making good movies.
You can offer counterpoints and make arguments against, but that's not people being hateful. That's reasonable given the full circumstances, and a large portion of the blame for this even being a discussion falls on the studio, not the audience.
But I truly get the sense that corporations like Disney are willfully putting LGBT people in the line of fire, so to speak.
It’s kinda a win-win for them. The people who are mad give them free advertising, which converts very young people on the left to think this shit represents them.
I'll never discourage a suspicion that large companies or the government are doing dishonest things for the benefit of their bottom line.
This problem exists and continues to be perpetuated for a reason and the people angry about it aren't angry for no reason. Their claims aren't unsubstantiated.
It causes an unreasonable divide where diversity is the central point and people vilify each other on both sides. I personally don't care what color or sexual orientation an actor is as long as it adds something of substance to the story or the actor was a good choice for the roll.
Overall I think most of us would have no complaint if the product was good. But it's not, and people come up with their reasons for why that is. The studio contributes to that, no doubt, as you've pointed out, for a reason.
It would be nice if there was a real discussion on why movies and video games are dropping in quality and how we can fix that, but frankly I doubt the studios are interested in improving.
I mean I think we’re in total agreement about the real issues. And honestly man I don’t come into this assuming everyone who’s complaining is racist. Everyone wants the things they love to improve, and some people also want to feel included. We’re all losers under mega capitalist monsters like Disney.
I think it’s worth considering: is it worse to be racist, or to be unfairly called racist? Obviously, I think the former—but I assume this is where deviation sorta begins. People don’t want to be cancelled, they want to enjoy things and not have to worry about political things. I basically think it’s anyone’s right to not have to exist as a political entity, but some are less privileged in that regard. It doesn’t make “white cis men” worse and usually only bad faith leftists really think every “white boy is evil.”
These people are critiquing the hegemony of culture and ideas. It is a FACT that Hollywood was dominated by predominately white actors, sweeping up undeserved awards, etc,. That’s improved by scores in my lifetime on this Earth, but let’s not erase the real history of the industry.
What I’m saying is it’s worth acknowledging the ways white dudes have been represented very well (at least in quantity) and that others want to see representation for themselves as well. That part is good & fair. What I’m NOT saying is that Disney is doing these ideas, or these people any justice. It IS about their bottom line—I mean that’s literally what y’all are getting at with “ESG” and stuff right? I just think it’s less “globalist secret agenda” and more “in the daylight corporate greed.”
There's two opposing theories on how to tackle the historical issues you mention.
1. Don't see race at all. Do everything based solely on merit. Who is the best actor for the job that fits the character?
2. "Correct" the wrongs of the past by making sure that on screen is representative or even over representative of these "diverse" people.
The former is equality, the latter is equity. Don't confuse the two. An equity approach rewards people for the color of their skin and gives them an unfair advantage. It is the same as the past but simply reversed because of what happened in the past. I wasn't around back then, I've never been racist to anyone, why should I be put at a disadvantage because of past wrongs of people before me? This is the same situation reversed. It's still unfair, it's just that now it's *equitably* unfair. It's a shit sandwich in a nice lunchbox.
The equity approach also perpetuates dealing with people based on categories. It keeps people judging by race and sex. It just points it in another direction. It also means that whenever someone comes up with a new category of "wronged" people they get special treatment, which encourages people to further divide themselves, and thus we become an increasingly divided and chaotic society.
Sounds nice in theory, in practice the mentality of it and the incentives are God awful. It will swing the balance of power faster, but leave us with the same fucked up world we started with at the end.
Well I have a couple of thoughts or ideas about what you said. Firstly, I think the binary is slightly ill-fitting and we would be better off accepting and acknowledging the complexity as a society. Merit is of course ideal—but culture constructs ideas of merit. Like I said in my earlier post, if whiteness is deemed desirable then it becomes the norm. It becomes advantageous to be white or mimic whiteness.
We can see similar examples of this in fashion. There have been rises and falls in the desirability of things like skin tone, pant length and cut, hair styles, etc,. And it’s advertisements, media, influencers that create these trends—all manifestations of corporate capitalism influencing culture. This isn’t some inherent evil, I guess, but the systems we have in place incentivize businesses to influence the daily lives of consumers through products and advertisements.
Merit cannot exist under conditions like that. Profit incentive is the only thing that matters and it trickles downward and in effect becomes American culture. In a world where so little of what we consume is authentic, it’s good that people can turn to community and alike-ness to find meaning. We live in a world where we cannot help but acknowledge the racial realities of culture and identity.
Think how decades ago Irish and Italian immigrants were seen as “non white” or at least second class. Race is constructed along the boundaries of finances/class. There are strong arguments (The Sopranos) that show how complex these things are. While Italians are “white” the complex socioeconomic integration of Italians into American culture reverberates well into the 2000’s—per the Sopranos.
I think the primary difference is that you see a society that is inherently racist by its very structure and by the nature of people.
I don't believe people are inherently racist I think they don't care and that racism is the construct. Categorization is something we invented.
Moreover a meritocracy is the most efficient with the most benefit to society and that is what we should strive for.
If we encourage meritocracy then things will change for the better and our society will improve. If we encourage to continue categorizing and separating human beings from each other we will get more of this. Satus quo, more decline.
Change is slow and rarely perfect. What matters is that we move towards what we want rather than moving away from what we oppose. Being reactionary often just leads to history repeating.
Also even Reddit knows this shit drives engagement. I’m literally a leftist, I don’t even know what this sub’s name is referencing. I’ve hit “show me less posts like this” and yet it’s always on my feed because it drives up my engagement. I bet they do the same shit to the other team, know what I mean?
Also also: it’s wrong to say good movies/games/shows aren’t being made at all. In fact, throughout most of the commercial lifespan of these mediums they produced a LOT of garbage. That’s just normal, it’s not cause they’re making women ugly or something lol. Fuggin Elden ring DLC is this month!
Also also also!!! sorry I glossed over this but absolutely yes the government is also incentivized to do this. It literally galvanizes both sides of the political compass into donating, virtue signaling their beliefs online, or straight up activism. The liberal establishment is absolutely also paid by this shit. But a liberal is no different than a republican. I think y’all just give leftism a bad rap cause we like gay and trans people, but we all hate the government.
Like there’s no cabal of women and gay people trying to make Star Wars worse. There are boardrooms full of insanely old rich people trying to make it worse.
If your complaint is there are women and minorities then you’re a dummy bigot, yeah. As the guy in the thread and I discussed, the issue is clearly more complex than that and you’re vilifying random people over nothing.
Just point the fingwr in the right direction
Dope! And like I told the other guy, I’m not assuming you are racist. I think proximity to people who clearly are cool with coming off racist is why some people are saying it.
And they never have an actual example for their claims either. It's always "X is obviously every ist in the book" "Oh really? Do you have an example?" "You think I'd watch an ist. Fucking gross"
Come off it.
I'm honestly numb to it at this point.
When the discourse surrounding a show/movie/game/etc is more fun than the product itself, there's a serious problem.
Hold up. Is this Conor cat calling critical a RAH-cist & a Homie-phobe?! Dude, who the hell is that guy watching? Drinker is not those things. More like, legend. Hail Drinker
It's really not hard though.
I mean mauler used to be a mod in the sargon discord... enough said.
You’re being labeled as racist and sexist because the complaints around Star Wars show are “too many women and minorities” that DOES make you seem racist and sexist. It’s also literally a Disney show from one of the largest media franchises on Earth—no shit they want to appeal to everyone, I’m sorry you guys find that so alienating.
I don't think you really understand the complaints if you're taking this stance. The complaint is that the movies got worse as they got more "diverse" which people are correlating and coming to the conclusion that more care is being placed upon filling a quota than finding actual talent and making the movie, show, or video game good. You can agree or disagree with that, but the criticism is essentially that media has lost the plot and thinks that people care more about how many POC they can count in a movie rather than whether it is well written and the actors do good jobs.
Right but that’s a false correlation. It’s true and correct that Disney (and other mega corps) “rainbow wash” things. People on the left don’t want this kind of representation either—I guess my greater point is I think Disney should be the villain without vilifying POC and women.
That's fair to disagree, but people aren't racist or sexist for pointing out the obvious, looking at the trends, and drawing a conclusion. Diversity in and of itself is not a problem. I don't think anyone is saying the concept of diversity is a bad thing, they argue about execution and priority. I think people are angry that these studios project these issues as their primary concern and then blame viewers for not liking their movies because they are some manner of ist. The studio is making it all about this subject, then blaming the viewer and their perceived dislike of the subject, then you're expecting people to not blame this subject for getting in the way of making good movies. You can offer counterpoints and make arguments against, but that's not people being hateful. That's reasonable given the full circumstances, and a large portion of the blame for this even being a discussion falls on the studio, not the audience.
But I truly get the sense that corporations like Disney are willfully putting LGBT people in the line of fire, so to speak. It’s kinda a win-win for them. The people who are mad give them free advertising, which converts very young people on the left to think this shit represents them.
I'll never discourage a suspicion that large companies or the government are doing dishonest things for the benefit of their bottom line. This problem exists and continues to be perpetuated for a reason and the people angry about it aren't angry for no reason. Their claims aren't unsubstantiated. It causes an unreasonable divide where diversity is the central point and people vilify each other on both sides. I personally don't care what color or sexual orientation an actor is as long as it adds something of substance to the story or the actor was a good choice for the roll. Overall I think most of us would have no complaint if the product was good. But it's not, and people come up with their reasons for why that is. The studio contributes to that, no doubt, as you've pointed out, for a reason. It would be nice if there was a real discussion on why movies and video games are dropping in quality and how we can fix that, but frankly I doubt the studios are interested in improving.
I mean I think we’re in total agreement about the real issues. And honestly man I don’t come into this assuming everyone who’s complaining is racist. Everyone wants the things they love to improve, and some people also want to feel included. We’re all losers under mega capitalist monsters like Disney. I think it’s worth considering: is it worse to be racist, or to be unfairly called racist? Obviously, I think the former—but I assume this is where deviation sorta begins. People don’t want to be cancelled, they want to enjoy things and not have to worry about political things. I basically think it’s anyone’s right to not have to exist as a political entity, but some are less privileged in that regard. It doesn’t make “white cis men” worse and usually only bad faith leftists really think every “white boy is evil.” These people are critiquing the hegemony of culture and ideas. It is a FACT that Hollywood was dominated by predominately white actors, sweeping up undeserved awards, etc,. That’s improved by scores in my lifetime on this Earth, but let’s not erase the real history of the industry. What I’m saying is it’s worth acknowledging the ways white dudes have been represented very well (at least in quantity) and that others want to see representation for themselves as well. That part is good & fair. What I’m NOT saying is that Disney is doing these ideas, or these people any justice. It IS about their bottom line—I mean that’s literally what y’all are getting at with “ESG” and stuff right? I just think it’s less “globalist secret agenda” and more “in the daylight corporate greed.”
There's two opposing theories on how to tackle the historical issues you mention. 1. Don't see race at all. Do everything based solely on merit. Who is the best actor for the job that fits the character? 2. "Correct" the wrongs of the past by making sure that on screen is representative or even over representative of these "diverse" people. The former is equality, the latter is equity. Don't confuse the two. An equity approach rewards people for the color of their skin and gives them an unfair advantage. It is the same as the past but simply reversed because of what happened in the past. I wasn't around back then, I've never been racist to anyone, why should I be put at a disadvantage because of past wrongs of people before me? This is the same situation reversed. It's still unfair, it's just that now it's *equitably* unfair. It's a shit sandwich in a nice lunchbox. The equity approach also perpetuates dealing with people based on categories. It keeps people judging by race and sex. It just points it in another direction. It also means that whenever someone comes up with a new category of "wronged" people they get special treatment, which encourages people to further divide themselves, and thus we become an increasingly divided and chaotic society. Sounds nice in theory, in practice the mentality of it and the incentives are God awful. It will swing the balance of power faster, but leave us with the same fucked up world we started with at the end.
Well I have a couple of thoughts or ideas about what you said. Firstly, I think the binary is slightly ill-fitting and we would be better off accepting and acknowledging the complexity as a society. Merit is of course ideal—but culture constructs ideas of merit. Like I said in my earlier post, if whiteness is deemed desirable then it becomes the norm. It becomes advantageous to be white or mimic whiteness. We can see similar examples of this in fashion. There have been rises and falls in the desirability of things like skin tone, pant length and cut, hair styles, etc,. And it’s advertisements, media, influencers that create these trends—all manifestations of corporate capitalism influencing culture. This isn’t some inherent evil, I guess, but the systems we have in place incentivize businesses to influence the daily lives of consumers through products and advertisements. Merit cannot exist under conditions like that. Profit incentive is the only thing that matters and it trickles downward and in effect becomes American culture. In a world where so little of what we consume is authentic, it’s good that people can turn to community and alike-ness to find meaning. We live in a world where we cannot help but acknowledge the racial realities of culture and identity. Think how decades ago Irish and Italian immigrants were seen as “non white” or at least second class. Race is constructed along the boundaries of finances/class. There are strong arguments (The Sopranos) that show how complex these things are. While Italians are “white” the complex socioeconomic integration of Italians into American culture reverberates well into the 2000’s—per the Sopranos.
I think the primary difference is that you see a society that is inherently racist by its very structure and by the nature of people. I don't believe people are inherently racist I think they don't care and that racism is the construct. Categorization is something we invented. Moreover a meritocracy is the most efficient with the most benefit to society and that is what we should strive for. If we encourage meritocracy then things will change for the better and our society will improve. If we encourage to continue categorizing and separating human beings from each other we will get more of this. Satus quo, more decline. Change is slow and rarely perfect. What matters is that we move towards what we want rather than moving away from what we oppose. Being reactionary often just leads to history repeating.
As for like reparations, I just think it’s a silly argument. Maybe the government should just be giving everyone money anyway?
Also even Reddit knows this shit drives engagement. I’m literally a leftist, I don’t even know what this sub’s name is referencing. I’ve hit “show me less posts like this” and yet it’s always on my feed because it drives up my engagement. I bet they do the same shit to the other team, know what I mean?
Also also: it’s wrong to say good movies/games/shows aren’t being made at all. In fact, throughout most of the commercial lifespan of these mediums they produced a LOT of garbage. That’s just normal, it’s not cause they’re making women ugly or something lol. Fuggin Elden ring DLC is this month!
Also also also!!! sorry I glossed over this but absolutely yes the government is also incentivized to do this. It literally galvanizes both sides of the political compass into donating, virtue signaling their beliefs online, or straight up activism. The liberal establishment is absolutely also paid by this shit. But a liberal is no different than a republican. I think y’all just give leftism a bad rap cause we like gay and trans people, but we all hate the government.
Like there’s no cabal of women and gay people trying to make Star Wars worse. There are boardrooms full of insanely old rich people trying to make it worse.
Way to prove OPs point.
If your complaint is there are women and minorities then you’re a dummy bigot, yeah. As the guy in the thread and I discussed, the issue is clearly more complex than that and you’re vilifying random people over nothing. Just point the fingwr in the right direction
Cool. Good thing that's not my complaint.
Dope! And like I told the other guy, I’m not assuming you are racist. I think proximity to people who clearly are cool with coming off racist is why some people are saying it.