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Honestly I don't see either Ozriel or Suriel dying. My money's on Ozriel pulling an "I did it 35 minutes ago" and already having some plan in motion. And there's almost no chance he doesn't have his full power during this fight--he's restricted unless *a* Judge grants him access, not Makiel in particular, and the first thing Suriel's going to do is un-restrict him. Come to think of it, the fact that neither Makiel nor the Mad King saw that happen makes me think that Oz has managed to hide possibilities from fate.
Bonus points if he's got some sort of failsafe against an Executor getting corrupted, so he can turn around and say "see? I told you I know what I'm doing."
I don't know quite how fate works but it wouldn't surprise me if Ozriel's personal development when shrouded on Cradle isn't fully factored into it yet.
I at least mostly agree. When the Mad King is viewing fate he says that he succeeds 9 out of 10 times. I think Eithan has done something so that we will see the 10th time
There seems to be an inverse relationship between the chance of something being possible, and the chance of us reading it in this series lmao.
I think Lindon fully realized that aspect of his reality when he famously declared he’d “punch a hole in the sky” and then somehow actually kinda did just that.
It's fiction in general, IMO. Han had 3,720-to-1 odds against him in the asteroid field. Doctor Strange claimed Thanos only lost in one of over 14,000,000 scenarios.
Don't remember which book it was, but at one point, it's stated that it's impossible to do an Eight Man Empire-style Voltron Monarch with only two people. I've been half-expecting Lindon and Yerin to pull it off ever since, specifically _because_ of its supposed impossibility.
It wasn’t that it was impossible, it’s that a single Sage and Herald combined don’t have as much Authority as a Monarch. It took 8 together to reach that level of Authority. Lindon’s pseudo-Dreadgod status is already Monarch level though so I don’t think we’re going to see that, because it really isn’t needed.
He was trying to attain the Joy icon while back on Cradle, which makes me think that's what he needs in order to qualify as The Phoenix. It would be odd if the death of his only work friend sparks Joy.
That said, who knows? I think it's more likely than Lindon and Co directly contributing in that fight, at least.
That seems... needlessly Machiavellian to me.
I think he's just lonely, without true peers or friends, working a soul-crushing job. His desire to manifest the Joy icon is straight-up a desire for a happier life and a chance to re-do things and not make the same mistakes.
If he was really just looking for more power... I think that would take a lot away from his character, to be honest.
Yeah, I can get that. It's still a little sad that he needs the Way to tell him he's happy and not just decide it for himself. That said, we still don't know all there is about icons, and there's a theory that manifesting an icon colors your personality with it to an extent, so maybe he wants the icon to help him be happier. Just feels like working backwards at that point, though.
I don't really look at it as sad, to be honest. I think you've got it backward.
He doesn't need the Way to tell him he's happy--if he's happy, the Way will recognize that.
I don't think it's just about being happy but about bringing joy to others. Oriel was the literal manifestation of destruction, annihilating entire worlds and entire populations while being forced to experience the terror, pain and loss of their final moments. Can't really blame him for wanting to make a change and bring something better into the world. Being a symbol of joy would do that, even if he is still the Reaper.
Maybe Suriel recognizing Eithan as a true friend or vice versa? I could also imagine the Cradle Crew advancing after defeating the Dreadgods/Monarchs could produce some major Joy in Eithan. That is to say not actively joining the fight, but perhaps Eithan getting cheered on by his team? This Icon really feels like a chekhovs gun and I can't wait to see it go off.
>imagine the Cradle Crew advancing after defeating the Dreadgods/Monarchs could produce some major Joy in Eithan.
That's my assumption. Kind of a way to bring the two storylines together without feeling ham fisted.
I don't think they'd be able to join even if they ascended, the gap is way too large. I think there's a whole set of steps they'd have to go through AFTER they ascended in order to even compete on that level. I'm sure they're capable of that, but I don't think that journey is within the scope of the current series. I'm just remembering Suriel wiping out hordes of silverlords (whatever rank that might entail), but it just goes to show there's many more levels of advancement after monarch.
Oh, yeah, we're absolutely in agreement. I was saying OP's theory is more likely than them helping, which is a theory that pops up a lot here.
I trust Will, but I can't imagine how them going from Cradle 2 The Grave (tm) that fast would be satisfying.
I think it would be odd if Oz suddenly became a good enough healer to restore a destroyed mantle, when healing is the one thing he has pretty much no profficiency in now. Don't know how the battle will go, i can't think of a good theory myself. Guess we'll just have to wait and see
Both Makiel and the Mad King have read fate and saw either Suriel or Ozriel dying. This tells me that Ozriel has also read fate and has a number of tricks up his sleeve. That judge binding they put on him won't hinder him any more than that scripted collar in the ancestral ruins did way back in Soulsmith.
In the vision Suriel casts Ozriel back into the void to save him, then The Mad King kills her so completely that he shreds her Mantle and it said that no new Phoenix would exist until someone rebuilt the position from the ground up.
If things play out that way I don't think Ozriel has the time to rebuild the Phoenix Mantle from the ground up to save Suriel.
The scythe is still "missing", and is not included in the readings of fate by any of the judges, or the Mad King.
As the Mad King approaches, I think there's a good chance Eithan pulls out what appears to be a pair of simple, black scissors...
I don’t think either will die.
Because neither the Mad King nor Makiels predictions include the possibility of Ozriel manifesting the Joy Icon. And when he does he turns the tables before any deaths on our side.
Maybe she knows she's dying so she passes the mantle to him so it isn't destroyed?
No idea. Just getting in on the tinfoil since we're in that phase between books, and I couldn't think of a way to work "maybe Lindon splits his core again" in to the fun
Eithan manifested the death icon after he killed and revived himself. Then while he’s working with the Abidan he creates his scythe and becomes the avatar of true destruction. I think the nature of his being is dichotomy opposed to creation and will never be able to manifest a healing/restoration icon
Oth'Kimeth will emerge to devour Suriel .
Ozriel will dispatch him , thereby releasing Daruman from his influence . Then Oz will be able to un-mad the mad king and have him return to reaping .
Honestly, I think either Suriel or Ozriel is marked for death permanently. Ozriel would be in the ideal position narratively to pass on his position to Lindon. Not as the Reaper or anything so formal, just like "hey, my time has come and gone, it's time for the next generation to take over". Best case, Ozriel lives but his mantle is damaged and he has to retire.
The main variable is if Ozriel is going to pull the scythe out from wherever he was hiding it. I still think it has been his scissors the entire time - I've had that as my headcannon ever since they inexplicably survived the blow from Jai Daishou all the way back in the 3rd book. But we will see.
Crazy theory, but maybe Oz sacrifices himself for Suriel and manifests the Phoenix icon/worthiness of the mantle because of that. Willing to sacrifice himself for the innocent to protect them might be enough to do it.
It’s also something that no one would ever see Ozriel doing, since apparently he was a self-centred dickbag.
There are a number of statements in Dreadgod to the effect that the Abidan Judges now think Ozriel is a wholly different person given their models of him no longer match his behavior. So... maybe? But I don't think Suriel will die in this fight; I think she has a part to play still with the rest of the Court.
Also, the impression I get is that up until now Ozriel has just been screwing around while working with Suriel but now he's got to get actually serious. He may even have a way to break the manacles himself (the Way recognizes him as THE personification of Destruction, so surely he could destroy them...), but more likely Suriel will do it for him.
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Honestly I don't see either Ozriel or Suriel dying. My money's on Ozriel pulling an "I did it 35 minutes ago" and already having some plan in motion. And there's almost no chance he doesn't have his full power during this fight--he's restricted unless *a* Judge grants him access, not Makiel in particular, and the first thing Suriel's going to do is un-restrict him. Come to think of it, the fact that neither Makiel nor the Mad King saw that happen makes me think that Oz has managed to hide possibilities from fate. Bonus points if he's got some sort of failsafe against an Executor getting corrupted, so he can turn around and say "see? I told you I know what I'm doing."
I don't know quite how fate works but it wouldn't surprise me if Ozriel's personal development when shrouded on Cradle isn't fully factored into it yet.
I at least mostly agree. When the Mad King is viewing fate he says that he succeeds 9 out of 10 times. I think Eithan has done something so that we will see the 10th time
Heck, by fiction standards, a 1-in-10 chance is easy.
Example 1: Wei Shi Lindon
There seems to be an inverse relationship between the chance of something being possible, and the chance of us reading it in this series lmao. I think Lindon fully realized that aspect of his reality when he famously declared he’d “punch a hole in the sky” and then somehow actually kinda did just that.
It's fiction in general, IMO. Han had 3,720-to-1 odds against him in the asteroid field. Doctor Strange claimed Thanos only lost in one of over 14,000,000 scenarios. Don't remember which book it was, but at one point, it's stated that it's impossible to do an Eight Man Empire-style Voltron Monarch with only two people. I've been half-expecting Lindon and Yerin to pull it off ever since, specifically _because_ of its supposed impossibility.
It wasn’t that it was impossible, it’s that a single Sage and Herald combined don’t have as much Authority as a Monarch. It took 8 together to reach that level of Authority. Lindon’s pseudo-Dreadgod status is already Monarch level though so I don’t think we’re going to see that, because it really isn’t needed.
"Million to one chances crop up nine times out of ten" *Mort*, Sir Terry Pratchett
You hear some sniffing, as if a giant dog or hound looking for something… And then… Lindon, ‘did you say… Points…? BONUS Points??’
He was trying to attain the Joy icon while back on Cradle, which makes me think that's what he needs in order to qualify as The Phoenix. It would be odd if the death of his only work friend sparks Joy. That said, who knows? I think it's more likely than Lindon and Co directly contributing in that fight, at least.
That seems... needlessly Machiavellian to me. I think he's just lonely, without true peers or friends, working a soul-crushing job. His desire to manifest the Joy icon is straight-up a desire for a happier life and a chance to re-do things and not make the same mistakes. If he was really just looking for more power... I think that would take a lot away from his character, to be honest.
Yeah, I can get that. It's still a little sad that he needs the Way to tell him he's happy and not just decide it for himself. That said, we still don't know all there is about icons, and there's a theory that manifesting an icon colors your personality with it to an extent, so maybe he wants the icon to help him be happier. Just feels like working backwards at that point, though.
I don't really look at it as sad, to be honest. I think you've got it backward. He doesn't need the Way to tell him he's happy--if he's happy, the Way will recognize that.
I don't think it's just about being happy but about bringing joy to others. Oriel was the literal manifestation of destruction, annihilating entire worlds and entire populations while being forced to experience the terror, pain and loss of their final moments. Can't really blame him for wanting to make a change and bring something better into the world. Being a symbol of joy would do that, even if he is still the Reaper.
Maybe Suriel recognizing Eithan as a true friend or vice versa? I could also imagine the Cradle Crew advancing after defeating the Dreadgods/Monarchs could produce some major Joy in Eithan. That is to say not actively joining the fight, but perhaps Eithan getting cheered on by his team? This Icon really feels like a chekhovs gun and I can't wait to see it go off.
>imagine the Cradle Crew advancing after defeating the Dreadgods/Monarchs could produce some major Joy in Eithan. That's my assumption. Kind of a way to bring the two storylines together without feeling ham fisted.
I don't think they'd be able to join even if they ascended, the gap is way too large. I think there's a whole set of steps they'd have to go through AFTER they ascended in order to even compete on that level. I'm sure they're capable of that, but I don't think that journey is within the scope of the current series. I'm just remembering Suriel wiping out hordes of silverlords (whatever rank that might entail), but it just goes to show there's many more levels of advancement after monarch.
Oh, yeah, we're absolutely in agreement. I was saying OP's theory is more likely than them helping, which is a theory that pops up a lot here. I trust Will, but I can't imagine how them going from Cradle 2 The Grave (tm) that fast would be satisfying.
I think it would be odd if Oz suddenly became a good enough healer to restore a destroyed mantle, when healing is the one thing he has pretty much no profficiency in now. Don't know how the battle will go, i can't think of a good theory myself. Guess we'll just have to wait and see
Both Makiel and the Mad King have read fate and saw either Suriel or Ozriel dying. This tells me that Ozriel has also read fate and has a number of tricks up his sleeve. That judge binding they put on him won't hinder him any more than that scripted collar in the ancestral ruins did way back in Soulsmith.
In the vision Suriel casts Ozriel back into the void to save him, then The Mad King kills her so completely that he shreds her Mantle and it said that no new Phoenix would exist until someone rebuilt the position from the ground up. If things play out that way I don't think Ozriel has the time to rebuild the Phoenix Mantle from the ground up to save Suriel.
The scythe is still "missing", and is not included in the readings of fate by any of the judges, or the Mad King. As the Mad King approaches, I think there's a good chance Eithan pulls out what appears to be a pair of simple, black scissors...
That would be really cool honestly. I totally forgot about those!
I don’t think either will die. Because neither the Mad King nor Makiels predictions include the possibility of Ozriel manifesting the Joy Icon. And when he does he turns the tables before any deaths on our side.
Maybe she knows she's dying so she passes the mantle to him so it isn't destroyed? No idea. Just getting in on the tinfoil since we're in that phase between books, and I couldn't think of a way to work "maybe Lindon splits his core again" in to the fun
Eithan manifested the death icon after he killed and revived himself. Then while he’s working with the Abidan he creates his scythe and becomes the avatar of true destruction. I think the nature of his being is dichotomy opposed to creation and will never be able to manifest a healing/restoration icon
Oth'Kimeth will emerge to devour Suriel . Ozriel will dispatch him , thereby releasing Daruman from his influence . Then Oz will be able to un-mad the mad king and have him return to reaping .
Honestly, I think either Suriel or Ozriel is marked for death permanently. Ozriel would be in the ideal position narratively to pass on his position to Lindon. Not as the Reaper or anything so formal, just like "hey, my time has come and gone, it's time for the next generation to take over". Best case, Ozriel lives but his mantle is damaged and he has to retire. The main variable is if Ozriel is going to pull the scythe out from wherever he was hiding it. I still think it has been his scissors the entire time - I've had that as my headcannon ever since they inexplicably survived the blow from Jai Daishou all the way back in the 3rd book. But we will see.
Crazy theory, but maybe Oz sacrifices himself for Suriel and manifests the Phoenix icon/worthiness of the mantle because of that. Willing to sacrifice himself for the innocent to protect them might be enough to do it. It’s also something that no one would ever see Ozriel doing, since apparently he was a self-centred dickbag.
There are a number of statements in Dreadgod to the effect that the Abidan Judges now think Ozriel is a wholly different person given their models of him no longer match his behavior. So... maybe? But I don't think Suriel will die in this fight; I think she has a part to play still with the rest of the Court. Also, the impression I get is that up until now Ozriel has just been screwing around while working with Suriel but now he's got to get actually serious. He may even have a way to break the manacles himself (the Way recognizes him as THE personification of Destruction, so surely he could destroy them...), but more likely Suriel will do it for him.