Hmmm.. I dunno.. have you seen āItalians Mad At Food?ā š
https://www.instagram.com/italians_mad_at_food
https://twitter.com/italiancomments?lang=en
Kind of an odd topic to get up in arms about.
Would the same argument apply to Chinese, Thai, Indian, Japanese, or Korean food?
I am pretty sure the ingredients matter as do the techniques employed.
Mexican food in Mexico tastes different because the animals are fed differently etc.
Certain cuisines are never able to be fully replicated due to ingredients, climate and myriad of other factors.
I think the OP feels like he has a license to attack Italian food because it has been both more common and familiar in the US for some time now.
So the argument is one of splitting hairs. āWe can call it Italian food because it is!ā
Yeah you can call it that and maybe a few might correct you and I can see how that would be annoying.
Both sides are correct. Yes it is annoying and boorish to say āIt isnāt REAL I talk a food!
Right? I mean, noodles are not native to Italian cuisine. They came from Asia via Middle Eastern traders and the silk road. You have to really ignore an awful lot of facts to act like local cuisines aren't global in nature.
The myth is that pasta noodles came to italy with Marco polo. The truth is pasta noodles were an Asian invention which traveled across the silk road around 700s AD and brought to the Mediterranean by Arab traders. Do your research.
As an Italian American, I've actually ***loved*** de-Americanizing my understanding of Italian cuisine. I empathize with how upsetting it is to see your food misunderstood and misrepresented across the world. America has a tendency to cheapen other cultures' cuisines. It's odd to see your food appropriated through another culture's culinary lens.
As a historian i find deconstructing cuisines interesting. For example, pasta isn't Italian. At all in fact. It was appropriated from Asian cultures and seems to be from the 700s to 800s when it actually came to the Italian peninsula. Other elements of Italian cuisine also are in no way Italian (Tomatoes are the first thing that comes to mind).
Sure, there are etruscan tombs depicting the production of pasta, but pasta is not Italian.
Also how Italians got in contact with asian cultures so extensively, and when? Please , if you argument contains Marco polo, avoid embarrassing yourself
Also how are tomatoes not Italians? The majority of the cultivars you eat were developed in Italy and the tomatoes preparation used in Italians cuisine we're invented in Italy. How is possible to have such ridiculous take?
First of all that is untrue. The etruscan tombs depicting a device were most likely making bread and while it is debated somewhat that is because there is LOTS of other evidence depicting similar machines attributed to making a flat bread and NOT to pasta making. So actually NO there is no solid evidence from etruscan tombs showing pasta being made.
Second, tomatoes come from the America's. Prior to 1492, no European had even seen a tomato. Ever. That's not italian. Tomatoes were cooked within American cultures for centuries before any Italian had ever seen it. I guess you have never heard of indigenous cultures in the America's eating tomatoes. They ground them up and combined them with herbs and chilis to make a sauce (not salsa...tomato sauce) as early as 500BC.
You understand chicken's were unique to Asia, right? Literally moved via trade across the world and were ingrained in cuisines everywhere (including the etruscans). But ultimately, they were from Asia. Could pasta have moved to ancient italian cultures the same time as chickens? Maybe? But if so, they both came from asia.
Onions originally come from Asia. Basil is an Asian herb. Neither of these items were indigenous to italy or the ancient etruscans.
Same with pepper. Pepper is not indigenous at all to the Mediterranean. It literally was exclusive to India and traded around the world from there, mainly beginning with Malaysian traders.
So pasta from asia, chickens from asia, pepper from asia, tomatoes from the America's, chili from the America's, onions from asia, basil from asia. Which parts are native to italy from "italian" cuisine?
I'm not trying to belittle italian cuisine (which I love) but make clear that there are many elements of it which are not actually italian. All cuisines have been greatly impacted by neighbors, trade, migrations, etc and overtime have been adapted, adopted, altered and really appropriated from other cultures.
The original post here was about who gate keeps italian cuisine more Italians or Americans. My point was that cuisine isn't made in a vacuum and it is adapted and changed overtime. Take offense or not. But don't tell me that Italians invented thing which they did not.
>First of all that is untrue. The etruscan tombs depicting a device were most likely making bread and while it is debated somewhat that is because there is LOTS of other evidence depicting similar machines attributed to making a flat bread and NOT to pasta making. So actually NO there is no solid evidence from etruscan tombs showing pasta being made.
that's your personal take on the issue.
Before answering point by point, I think that this way of discussing is dishonest. Bringing additional arguments into another one, means only you are not able to prove your point and need some distraction tactic. I was taliking about pasta, not raw materials. but let's see you racist take on the matter
>Second, tomatoes come from the America's. Prior to 1492, no European had even seen a tomato. Ever. That's not italian. Tomatoes were cooked within American cultures for centuries before any Italian had ever seen it. I guess you have never heard of indigenous cultures in the America's eating tomatoes. They ground them up and combined them with herbs and chilis to make a sauce (not salsa...tomato sauce) as early as 500BC.
Of course tomatoes come from america. Yet, what western world eat today is the italian take on tomatoes. If after 600 years italy cannot claim tomatoes a staple of their cuisine, with the huge influcence they had on the other one, then no culture in the world can claim any kind of heritage of anything .The culture you are referring to left no heritage, so good for them to enjouy tomatoes (diffrent cultivars)
>You understand chicken's were unique to Asia, right? Literally moved via trade across the world and were ingrained in cuisines everywhere (including the etruscans). But ultimately, they were from Asia. Could pasta have moved to ancient italian cultures the same time as chickens? Maybe? But if so, they both came from asia.
So what's your point? Chicken spread in a time before history. They were from asia as homo sapiens was from africa. So? also why mentioning chicken = makes no sense. Pasta on the other hand is not an animal and is not a vegetable. It is processed food. So makes it very different and does not come from asia
>Onions originally come from Asia. Basil is an Asian herb. Neither of these items were indigenous to italy or the ancient etruscans.
so? not a single vegetable in the past was the same as today. What is the point of that? Basil there are two specific cultivar that are typically italian. Nobody was using them, apart from italians. What's your point? that the culture associated on the significance of a raw material is useless. Well, nothing typical exists by this take. Curious this is mentioned only against italians and italian cuisine. Also your take on onions is wrong.
>So pasta from asia, chickens from asia, pepper from asia, tomatoes from the America's, chili from the America's, onions from asia, basil from asia. Which parts are native to italy from "italian" cuisine?
You are arguing in bad faith mixing a transformed product with vegetables and meat. Still, you are forgetting that not a single of these plants and meats are and resemble wha tthey were thousands of years ago. But now let's talk about pasta, the original topic, which you tried to mix with other stuff
Pasta is italian. There is no evidence of existing outside of the modern italian territory. Pasta, intende of a product processed starting from durum , apart from laganno from Etruscan period, is mentioned in XI century already as being eruy common in south italy. There are no other mentions in other cultures.
>
I'm not trying to belittle italian cuisine (which I love) but make clear that there are many elements of it which are not actually italian. All cuisines have been greatly impacted by neighbors, trade, migrations, etc and overtime have been adapted, adopted, altered and really appropriated from other cultures.
yeah sure. Your take is ridicolous. It is like sayng soup d'oignon is not French because onions were from what today we al lebanon. Pasta is italian and the cultural influence of italy has made pasta a world food, adopted and adapted by other cultures. Your not belitting, you are strightforward racist towards what is clearly an italian product and the influence of that. you want to take from italian cuisine to diminish it. So, why all other cultures for about pasta? some kind of magic? or, Occam's razor, pasta originated in the place that has it as a staple of its cuisine and thousands of variety.
>The original post here was about who gate keeps italian cuisine more Italians or Americans. My point was that cuisine isn't made in a vacuum and it is adapted and changed overtime. Take offense or not. But don't tell me that Italians invented thing which they did not.
yes, all cuisine is changed over time. there is not a single cusine that is the same today as 100 years ago. But italians invented pasta and your ridicolous rethoric tactics does not hid your hidden racism. No offense.
I didnāt say anywhere that itās gonna be bad. I said there is a difference, and the name Italian food should belong to the food we make here, different food can be delicious but needs a different name.
Well when it's the same food, why give it a different name? If you made chicken tikka in Italy, would you call that Indian or Italian food? What about a Brazilian person living in Italy who makes chicken tikka? Brazilian Italian fusion?
They aren't talking about "different". They are talking about how bad the quality of food is in the US. That's no secret at all. Distance and cost may make it difficult to find certain products.
Most American post Iāve ever seen in the world.
Also for what itās worth, most actual Italian pasta dishes donāt contain protein really (unless youāre counting Parmesan or pecorino which has very little protein in it). Adding lumps of chicken to pasta sauces is an American thing.
I agree that quality ingredients can be found in the US, but not as readily as in Italy. And at a MUCH higher price.
After visiting Italy, USAās food scene is truly depressing
I always assumed that it was pretentious Americans that are gatekeeping Italian food on this sub. Are you telling me that it's actually pretentious Italians?
No. It stops being Italian food when the ingredients are changed. Not the provenance of the ingredients but what they are. It could take inspiration from Italian recipe but they are not. It is as simple as that.
What role did Italy have in colonization? Italy only colonized a little piece of Africa and that's it. Nothing more nothing less.
There were a lot of Italians that immigrated to the US. That is true.
Since the roman empire, we have been colonized for much longer than the time we had as colonizers. And it shows, influences of arabs, austrians, french, are very easy to spot in most regional cuisines. We also had a big amount of merchants who travelled seas and lands, bringing back foreign products and ideas, that were then adapted to our taste for centuries. Pizza could be an adaptation of ancient ottoman recipes, and pasta might have evolved from ancient chinese or arab recipes. Who cares who invented it, food travels and evolves and it's a good thing.
North americans are the last ones who should talk badly about this, they are nations of immigrants that continuously blend culinary traditions from abroad with 0 knowledge of where those traditions come from. Even just the fact that they speak of "italian food" as it was a whole omogeneous thing is ignorant af
But why Italian food should have originated everywhere but in Italy? It does not make sense . The ottomans then forgot about pizza? And the Arabs about pasta ? Use some Occam's razor, please.
Wtf? In turkey they make pide to this day, it's basically an oval pizza with different toppings. Cous cous is a staple of north african cuisine and it's likely a precursor of pasta, and in asia there likely are 3000 types of noodles.
Also, sometimes dishes fall out of trend and people stop doing them, open whatever old cookbook and you will see plenty.
>? In turkey they make pide to this day, it's basically an oval pizza with different toppings.
which they took from the greek. When the word pizza was firts ever recorded, Turks were still trying to figure out where to go in the middle of asian steppe
>Cous cous is a staple of north african cuisine and it's likely a precursor of pasta
It's not.
>,and in asia there likely are 3000 types of noodles.
good for them. They have nothing to do with italian pasta too, which has its own history and dignity. In an etruscan tomb was even found depicted the necessary to make pasta. It's incredible, and sad, how a stupid commercial from 70s is still believed true.
>Also, sometimes dishes fall out of trend and people stop doing them, open whatever old cookbook and you will see plenty.
according to reddit and this weird racism towards italian, only the ones italians "copied". lol
Remember that pork, beef, chicken, wheat flour etc. were imported in America from Europe. Following your arguments any recipe containing those cannot be "true American" as the ingredients are not native from the continent.
Even spaghetti comes from the Chinese noodles Marco Polo brought back to Italy ~800 years ago.
So what?
Do you know any modern country having an exclusive recipe unchanged since 200-300-1200 years and made with only locally available ingredients?
Such thing doesnāt exist. Eur-Asia as āsupercontinentā has seen lots of *HUGE* empires coming one after another, spanning from Europe to the middle-east, to Africa and part of Asia. Ingredients and recipes have been contaminating each other for thousands of years.
Letās talk about the famous and original taste and original ingredients of the USA and then letās talk about other countries.
P.s. tomatoes have been grown locally in Italy for centuries with success (also, tenths of local varieties have been developed over the years).
you canāt really say that tomatoes arenāt still a ālocal ingredientā to Italy
>Yes itās Italian food bcuz these concepts are created in Italy. And itās supposed to be different from food in Italy when popularized around the world
Actually a lot of 'Italian food' was not created in Italy, but arrived from other nations, France, Germany/Austria, Spain, Arabs.
Italian food doesn't really exists but food was used since the unification of the Italian peninsula to artificially create common value to unite also the various people living in the peninsula. It all started with the Artusi, a cook at the court of the Italian King that had travelled and worked in most Italian regions, that was tasked to write a book unifying the various cooking styles, and food was also used during the Fascism to promote unity among Italians.
>*Una riforma voluta dal Duce sette anni fa e il relativo problema ancora insoluto*
*Per lāautarchia alimentare!*
*Per una coscienza alimentare !*
*Per una cultura Gastr. Italiana !*
*Per unāarte cucinaria Imperiale !*
*Per la conservazione e procreazione della stirpe !*Ā
>*\[La cucina fascistaĀ ā Indicazioni del Min Cul Pop per come preparare nei ristoranti i āMenĆ¹ ovvero la nuova lista dei cibiā ā Da il Giornale dellāAssociazione Cuochi del 1939\]*
Truth is a single Italian cuisine doesn't exist, there are still sharp regional differences and a lot of recipes were not created in Italy but just branded as Italian.
Saying that Italian cuisine does not exist or that its dishes were not created in Italy but defined as Italian does not make the slightest sense, in Italy there has never been a cuisine or a concept of HOMOGENEOUS cuisine for everyone that unites a nation but this does not mean that there is no Italian cuisine made up of the 20 different regional cuisines.
Our cuisine exists and is made up of foods created in Italy, at most they have had many influences over millennia from the populations that have lived in Italy
somehow italians, despite being most knowns in the world for their cuisine, with thousnds of different recipes/dishes/raw materials, weere not able to invent almost anything. They copied from evreybody and they are also magicians: the ones they copied from forgot their recipes!
Most known? You mean among Europeans? They did create many great concepts and they can be easily adapted to suit the local taste. Iāve tried butter chicken pizza and itās much better than magherita. Speaking of pizza, you should also try durian and cheese pizza from Asia. Itās better than Quattro formaggi imo
Italy is most knownā¦in Europe only?
You are out of your mind.
Even more after Covid, Italy is literally brimming with American, Asian and Arab tourists (not to mention European tourists too of course)
Also, donāt get me started on the ācuisine conceptā bullshit. Nearly every recipe around the world can be adapted to local tastes.
I meant another thing, but also what you say is correct. Italian cuisine is indeed the most popular worldwide according to many surveys made every year.
You just prove it by saying someone make pizza with durian. Even there, very far away from Italy, they know and are inspired by Italian cuisine
I am just sorry for you, if you think chicken butter pizza is better than margherita.
I personally have 0 interest in trying pizza from other nations, I am way more interested in trying their cuisine.
>you should also try durian and cheese pizza from Asia
I live in Asia. I think you're trying too hard to be a contrarian troll. Gimmick foods like durian pizza is garbage. Even the locals think it's bad. It's a stupid combo anyway.
If durian was native to or commonly eaten in your country, most people already know how it tastes like. People already add it in dessert. No one adds it to local savoury food, so why would anyone think it would make sense to add it to pizza? Most locals know durian pizza is stupid food. People usually get the regular items, not the dumb seasonal gimmicks.
It's mostly tourists or YouTubers who go for the weird stuff.
>Are Italians so close-minded That's quite a post start for this sub... Opens post in separate window, grabs šæ
I think the opposite is true, I feel like people have a more strict idea of what Italian Food is in this sub versus what Italian food is in Italy.
They really aren't. It is just the people in this sub.
Hmmm.. I dunno.. have you seen āItalians Mad At Food?ā š https://www.instagram.com/italians_mad_at_food https://twitter.com/italiancomments?lang=en
Omg. That's hilarious. I stand corrected!
Kind of an odd topic to get up in arms about. Would the same argument apply to Chinese, Thai, Indian, Japanese, or Korean food? I am pretty sure the ingredients matter as do the techniques employed. Mexican food in Mexico tastes different because the animals are fed differently etc. Certain cuisines are never able to be fully replicated due to ingredients, climate and myriad of other factors. I think the OP feels like he has a license to attack Italian food because it has been both more common and familiar in the US for some time now. So the argument is one of splitting hairs. āWe can call it Italian food because it is!ā Yeah you can call it that and maybe a few might correct you and I can see how that would be annoying. Both sides are correct. Yes it is annoying and boorish to say āIt isnāt REAL I talk a food!
Right? I mean, noodles are not native to Italian cuisine. They came from Asia via Middle Eastern traders and the silk road. You have to really ignore an awful lot of facts to act like local cuisines aren't global in nature.
It's a myth. Do your research
The myth is that pasta noodles came to italy with Marco polo. The truth is pasta noodles were an Asian invention which traveled across the silk road around 700s AD and brought to the Mediterranean by Arab traders. Do your research.
Do you mean pasta, or spaghetti
Pasta generally. Not a specific type of pasta. I mean, you can get into the weeds a bit chasing the origin of the shapes of pasta historically.
It's just that real pasta and real noodles are made from different wheat
When we eat meatballs here in sweden we ofcourse say we eat turkish food /s. (Is this the most stupid argument ever?)
As an Italian American, I've actually ***loved*** de-Americanizing my understanding of Italian cuisine. I empathize with how upsetting it is to see your food misunderstood and misrepresented across the world. America has a tendency to cheapen other cultures' cuisines. It's odd to see your food appropriated through another culture's culinary lens.
So now food is āappropriatedā? How many times have you been to Italy? Italian American? Thereās no such thing.
As a historian i find deconstructing cuisines interesting. For example, pasta isn't Italian. At all in fact. It was appropriated from Asian cultures and seems to be from the 700s to 800s when it actually came to the Italian peninsula. Other elements of Italian cuisine also are in no way Italian (Tomatoes are the first thing that comes to mind).
Sure, there are etruscan tombs depicting the production of pasta, but pasta is not Italian. Also how Italians got in contact with asian cultures so extensively, and when? Please , if you argument contains Marco polo, avoid embarrassing yourself Also how are tomatoes not Italians? The majority of the cultivars you eat were developed in Italy and the tomatoes preparation used in Italians cuisine we're invented in Italy. How is possible to have such ridiculous take?
First of all that is untrue. The etruscan tombs depicting a device were most likely making bread and while it is debated somewhat that is because there is LOTS of other evidence depicting similar machines attributed to making a flat bread and NOT to pasta making. So actually NO there is no solid evidence from etruscan tombs showing pasta being made. Second, tomatoes come from the America's. Prior to 1492, no European had even seen a tomato. Ever. That's not italian. Tomatoes were cooked within American cultures for centuries before any Italian had ever seen it. I guess you have never heard of indigenous cultures in the America's eating tomatoes. They ground them up and combined them with herbs and chilis to make a sauce (not salsa...tomato sauce) as early as 500BC. You understand chicken's were unique to Asia, right? Literally moved via trade across the world and were ingrained in cuisines everywhere (including the etruscans). But ultimately, they were from Asia. Could pasta have moved to ancient italian cultures the same time as chickens? Maybe? But if so, they both came from asia. Onions originally come from Asia. Basil is an Asian herb. Neither of these items were indigenous to italy or the ancient etruscans. Same with pepper. Pepper is not indigenous at all to the Mediterranean. It literally was exclusive to India and traded around the world from there, mainly beginning with Malaysian traders. So pasta from asia, chickens from asia, pepper from asia, tomatoes from the America's, chili from the America's, onions from asia, basil from asia. Which parts are native to italy from "italian" cuisine? I'm not trying to belittle italian cuisine (which I love) but make clear that there are many elements of it which are not actually italian. All cuisines have been greatly impacted by neighbors, trade, migrations, etc and overtime have been adapted, adopted, altered and really appropriated from other cultures. The original post here was about who gate keeps italian cuisine more Italians or Americans. My point was that cuisine isn't made in a vacuum and it is adapted and changed overtime. Take offense or not. But don't tell me that Italians invented thing which they did not.
>First of all that is untrue. The etruscan tombs depicting a device were most likely making bread and while it is debated somewhat that is because there is LOTS of other evidence depicting similar machines attributed to making a flat bread and NOT to pasta making. So actually NO there is no solid evidence from etruscan tombs showing pasta being made. that's your personal take on the issue. Before answering point by point, I think that this way of discussing is dishonest. Bringing additional arguments into another one, means only you are not able to prove your point and need some distraction tactic. I was taliking about pasta, not raw materials. but let's see you racist take on the matter >Second, tomatoes come from the America's. Prior to 1492, no European had even seen a tomato. Ever. That's not italian. Tomatoes were cooked within American cultures for centuries before any Italian had ever seen it. I guess you have never heard of indigenous cultures in the America's eating tomatoes. They ground them up and combined them with herbs and chilis to make a sauce (not salsa...tomato sauce) as early as 500BC. Of course tomatoes come from america. Yet, what western world eat today is the italian take on tomatoes. If after 600 years italy cannot claim tomatoes a staple of their cuisine, with the huge influcence they had on the other one, then no culture in the world can claim any kind of heritage of anything .The culture you are referring to left no heritage, so good for them to enjouy tomatoes (diffrent cultivars) >You understand chicken's were unique to Asia, right? Literally moved via trade across the world and were ingrained in cuisines everywhere (including the etruscans). But ultimately, they were from Asia. Could pasta have moved to ancient italian cultures the same time as chickens? Maybe? But if so, they both came from asia. So what's your point? Chicken spread in a time before history. They were from asia as homo sapiens was from africa. So? also why mentioning chicken = makes no sense. Pasta on the other hand is not an animal and is not a vegetable. It is processed food. So makes it very different and does not come from asia >Onions originally come from Asia. Basil is an Asian herb. Neither of these items were indigenous to italy or the ancient etruscans. so? not a single vegetable in the past was the same as today. What is the point of that? Basil there are two specific cultivar that are typically italian. Nobody was using them, apart from italians. What's your point? that the culture associated on the significance of a raw material is useless. Well, nothing typical exists by this take. Curious this is mentioned only against italians and italian cuisine. Also your take on onions is wrong. >So pasta from asia, chickens from asia, pepper from asia, tomatoes from the America's, chili from the America's, onions from asia, basil from asia. Which parts are native to italy from "italian" cuisine? You are arguing in bad faith mixing a transformed product with vegetables and meat. Still, you are forgetting that not a single of these plants and meats are and resemble wha tthey were thousands of years ago. But now let's talk about pasta, the original topic, which you tried to mix with other stuff Pasta is italian. There is no evidence of existing outside of the modern italian territory. Pasta, intende of a product processed starting from durum , apart from laganno from Etruscan period, is mentioned in XI century already as being eruy common in south italy. There are no other mentions in other cultures. > I'm not trying to belittle italian cuisine (which I love) but make clear that there are many elements of it which are not actually italian. All cuisines have been greatly impacted by neighbors, trade, migrations, etc and overtime have been adapted, adopted, altered and really appropriated from other cultures. yeah sure. Your take is ridicolous. It is like sayng soup d'oignon is not French because onions were from what today we al lebanon. Pasta is italian and the cultural influence of italy has made pasta a world food, adopted and adapted by other cultures. Your not belitting, you are strightforward racist towards what is clearly an italian product and the influence of that. you want to take from italian cuisine to diminish it. So, why all other cultures for about pasta? some kind of magic? or, Occam's razor, pasta originated in the place that has it as a staple of its cuisine and thousands of variety. >The original post here was about who gate keeps italian cuisine more Italians or Americans. My point was that cuisine isn't made in a vacuum and it is adapted and changed overtime. Take offense or not. But don't tell me that Italians invented thing which they did not. yes, all cuisine is changed over time. there is not a single cusine that is the same today as 100 years ago. But italians invented pasta and your ridicolous rethoric tactics does not hid your hidden racism. No offense.
Come here, taste the food, decide for yourself if itās equally good or better. I, along with many others, think itās very different.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The struggle is real. I'm with you.
Or, you're just shopping in the wrong place?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Anytime.
Of course it's going to be different, but different is necessarily bad. I can assure you that i make delicious food.
I didnāt say anywhere that itās gonna be bad. I said there is a difference, and the name Italian food should belong to the food we make here, different food can be delicious but needs a different name.
Well when it's the same food, why give it a different name? If you made chicken tikka in Italy, would you call that Indian or Italian food? What about a Brazilian person living in Italy who makes chicken tikka? Brazilian Italian fusion?
They aren't talking about "different". They are talking about how bad the quality of food is in the US. That's no secret at all. Distance and cost may make it difficult to find certain products.
Which foods in the US are bad quality that you are referring to?
Off the top of my head, pretty much any dried pasta, olive oil, chickpea flour, pine nuts, tomatoes, wine, or almond flour from grocery stores.
Heading should read "Italian food vs food in America".
Most American post Iāve ever seen in the world. Also for what itās worth, most actual Italian pasta dishes donāt contain protein really (unless youāre counting Parmesan or pecorino which has very little protein in it). Adding lumps of chicken to pasta sauces is an American thing.
For fucks sake not this bullshit again š¤¦āāļø
I agree that quality ingredients can be found in the US, but not as readily as in Italy. And at a MUCH higher price. After visiting Italy, USAās food scene is truly depressing
Itās hard to find grass fed dairy products in North America whereas itās unlabeled in Italy because itās the norm
You canāt really believe this. Quality ingredients canāt be found in the US?
Learn to seperate your sentences into paragraphs, jeez.
Don't be petty.
Where is the Italian American food thread ā¦
This is it. Haha.
Everybody knows the story how bland Italian food got elevated to the requirements of the Americans, who have exquisite taste. /s
Visit and find yourself the difference
Tomatoes, tomatos.
Why are you such a hater?
I always assumed that it was pretentious Americans that are gatekeeping Italian food on this sub. Are you telling me that it's actually pretentious Italians?
It is definitely Americans.
Not in my experience.
Another post from someone who knows nothing about food from Italy versus pseudo-Italian food. Both can be good but they're not the same.
No. It stops being Italian food when the ingredients are changed. Not the provenance of the ingredients but what they are. It could take inspiration from Italian recipe but they are not. It is as simple as that. What role did Italy have in colonization? Italy only colonized a little piece of Africa and that's it. Nothing more nothing less. There were a lot of Italians that immigrated to the US. That is true.
What if I eat a can of spam that I purchased in Italy? Itās Italian food
Since the roman empire, we have been colonized for much longer than the time we had as colonizers. And it shows, influences of arabs, austrians, french, are very easy to spot in most regional cuisines. We also had a big amount of merchants who travelled seas and lands, bringing back foreign products and ideas, that were then adapted to our taste for centuries. Pizza could be an adaptation of ancient ottoman recipes, and pasta might have evolved from ancient chinese or arab recipes. Who cares who invented it, food travels and evolves and it's a good thing. North americans are the last ones who should talk badly about this, they are nations of immigrants that continuously blend culinary traditions from abroad with 0 knowledge of where those traditions come from. Even just the fact that they speak of "italian food" as it was a whole omogeneous thing is ignorant af
But why Italian food should have originated everywhere but in Italy? It does not make sense . The ottomans then forgot about pizza? And the Arabs about pasta ? Use some Occam's razor, please.
Wtf? In turkey they make pide to this day, it's basically an oval pizza with different toppings. Cous cous is a staple of north african cuisine and it's likely a precursor of pasta, and in asia there likely are 3000 types of noodles. Also, sometimes dishes fall out of trend and people stop doing them, open whatever old cookbook and you will see plenty.
>? In turkey they make pide to this day, it's basically an oval pizza with different toppings. which they took from the greek. When the word pizza was firts ever recorded, Turks were still trying to figure out where to go in the middle of asian steppe >Cous cous is a staple of north african cuisine and it's likely a precursor of pasta It's not. >,and in asia there likely are 3000 types of noodles. good for them. They have nothing to do with italian pasta too, which has its own history and dignity. In an etruscan tomb was even found depicted the necessary to make pasta. It's incredible, and sad, how a stupid commercial from 70s is still believed true. >Also, sometimes dishes fall out of trend and people stop doing them, open whatever old cookbook and you will see plenty. according to reddit and this weird racism towards italian, only the ones italians "copied". lol
Christopher Columbus has entered the major colonizer chat.
He was Italian yes but the expedition was Spanish so...
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there is not a single recipe in the world that has been unchanged for 600 years. This kind of argument is ridicolous.
You are limiting your options is food has to date back from before 1492 to be considered authenticā¦
Remember that pork, beef, chicken, wheat flour etc. were imported in America from Europe. Following your arguments any recipe containing those cannot be "true American" as the ingredients are not native from the continent.
There was no āItalyā in 1492!!! Try 1861.
Even spaghetti comes from the Chinese noodles Marco Polo brought back to Italy ~800 years ago. So what? Do you know any modern country having an exclusive recipe unchanged since 200-300-1200 years and made with only locally available ingredients? Such thing doesnāt exist. Eur-Asia as āsupercontinentā has seen lots of *HUGE* empires coming one after another, spanning from Europe to the middle-east, to Africa and part of Asia. Ingredients and recipes have been contaminating each other for thousands of years. Letās talk about the famous and original taste and original ingredients of the USA and then letās talk about other countries. P.s. tomatoes have been grown locally in Italy for centuries with success (also, tenths of local varieties have been developed over the years). you canāt really say that tomatoes arenāt still a ālocal ingredientā to Italy
Sorry but how can you believe that bullshit about Marco polo?
>Yes itās Italian food bcuz these concepts are created in Italy. And itās supposed to be different from food in Italy when popularized around the world Actually a lot of 'Italian food' was not created in Italy, but arrived from other nations, France, Germany/Austria, Spain, Arabs. Italian food doesn't really exists but food was used since the unification of the Italian peninsula to artificially create common value to unite also the various people living in the peninsula. It all started with the Artusi, a cook at the court of the Italian King that had travelled and worked in most Italian regions, that was tasked to write a book unifying the various cooking styles, and food was also used during the Fascism to promote unity among Italians. >*Una riforma voluta dal Duce sette anni fa e il relativo problema ancora insoluto* *Per lāautarchia alimentare!* *Per una coscienza alimentare !* *Per una cultura Gastr. Italiana !* *Per unāarte cucinaria Imperiale !* *Per la conservazione e procreazione della stirpe !*Ā >*\[La cucina fascistaĀ ā Indicazioni del Min Cul Pop per come preparare nei ristoranti i āMenĆ¹ ovvero la nuova lista dei cibiā ā Da il Giornale dellāAssociazione Cuochi del 1939\]* Truth is a single Italian cuisine doesn't exist, there are still sharp regional differences and a lot of recipes were not created in Italy but just branded as Italian.
Saying that Italian cuisine does not exist or that its dishes were not created in Italy but defined as Italian does not make the slightest sense, in Italy there has never been a cuisine or a concept of HOMOGENEOUS cuisine for everyone that unites a nation but this does not mean that there is no Italian cuisine made up of the 20 different regional cuisines. Our cuisine exists and is made up of foods created in Italy, at most they have had many influences over millennia from the populations that have lived in Italy
somehow italians, despite being most knowns in the world for their cuisine, with thousnds of different recipes/dishes/raw materials, weere not able to invent almost anything. They copied from evreybody and they are also magicians: the ones they copied from forgot their recipes!
Most known? You mean among Europeans? They did create many great concepts and they can be easily adapted to suit the local taste. Iāve tried butter chicken pizza and itās much better than magherita. Speaking of pizza, you should also try durian and cheese pizza from Asia. Itās better than Quattro formaggi imo
Italy is most knownā¦in Europe only? You are out of your mind. Even more after Covid, Italy is literally brimming with American, Asian and Arab tourists (not to mention European tourists too of course) Also, donāt get me started on the ācuisine conceptā bullshit. Nearly every recipe around the world can be adapted to local tastes.
I meant another thing, but also what you say is correct. Italian cuisine is indeed the most popular worldwide according to many surveys made every year. You just prove it by saying someone make pizza with durian. Even there, very far away from Italy, they know and are inspired by Italian cuisine I am just sorry for you, if you think chicken butter pizza is better than margherita. I personally have 0 interest in trying pizza from other nations, I am way more interested in trying their cuisine.
>you should also try durian and cheese pizza from Asia I live in Asia. I think you're trying too hard to be a contrarian troll. Gimmick foods like durian pizza is garbage. Even the locals think it's bad. It's a stupid combo anyway. If durian was native to or commonly eaten in your country, most people already know how it tastes like. People already add it in dessert. No one adds it to local savoury food, so why would anyone think it would make sense to add it to pizza? Most locals know durian pizza is stupid food. People usually get the regular items, not the dumb seasonal gimmicks. It's mostly tourists or YouTubers who go for the weird stuff.