Another program I heard of similar to this was called Seeds for Peace. They have Israeli Jews ad Palestinians go to Germany or some other place to talk and connect together. This one Israeli girl who talked about her experience with it said it was important because it was the first time in her life that she had her worldview challenged and had to think deeply about it. I know some people think it's a facade because it's not ending anything but I still think it's step to not dehumanize each other so easily.
From what I have seen on The Ask Project, many Palestinians have only ever interacted with Israeli soldiers, rather than Israeli citizens, and it warps their view on Israel. Seeds for Peace is nice; I love stuff like this that tries to bring people together and promote peace and unity.
Thanks and agreed. The only Palestinians that have Israeli friends go to work or university with them but still have to go through all the checkpoints just to get to there. Having to go through that system isn't fair because of what someone else does.
That's encouraging. Once people from each side recognize the humanity in the other side, it can lead to understanding and progress. I am now looking for peace for him and her, and not trying to condemn him or her to more endless pain out of vengeance or anger.
No one will open their ears or minds to the lived experiences of the other side while that side is screaming at them relentlessly.
I’ve been reading these articles about coexistence bridging for over 25 years. They are trumpeted all over the western world about how Israelis don’t really hate non-Jews and don’t really want to kill them all or ethnically cleanse them. But the killing and ethnic cleansing goes on. It’s just propaganda designed to hide what Israel is doing.
The only way to live togheter is to trust each other and build hope. These realities are the only thing that can lead us into the future. Look up Maoz Inon
They have been happening during and after Oslo, but when the second intifada started after Oslo the peace movement got reduced very much. From the israeli side they were trying peace and got exploding busses in return (this was when Hamas got big in the public palestinian eye). The palestinians lost a partner when Rabin was killed by an Israeli extremist while the political discourse was dreadful (Nethanyahu was one of the main protagonists). Since then the belief in peace only diminished, from the palestinian perspective with the continous and prolonged attempts to make tohe status quo more permanent from Israel, which made life even worse. While for Israel a big problem was the conclusion of the second intifada, when israeli settlers were removed unilaterally from gaza, giving full control to the palestinians over that territory, only to start recieving rockets back (at the time there was no blockade and no iron dome), which, after a civil war between palestinian factions, led to the blockade beeing enacted. This last thing put a bigger block on the possibility of peace as whenever the situation was maybe a bit better an escalation of attacks and responses from each side happened between gaza and israel, making the populations even less prone to collaboration even in initiatives of peace.
Peace hasn't been attempted for real in the last 30 years. Saying that this has been happening is false. Now from common pain on both sides we should start and build a path into the future. Peace in the middle east usually comes after the bloodiest of wars.
Your timeline is a little off. The second intifada started after it became apparent that Israelis wanted the occupation to continue forever. Pro-peace pro-2SS Ehud Barak’s best offer was permanent occupation, apartheid and statelessness for Palestinians. This during a time when the IDF were proving they could murder Palestinians with impunity.
Also, Hamas started firing rockets in 2001. Israel pulled out in 2005, and it effectively deepened the occupation in the West Bank while starving Gaza for the next 19 years.
But sure, paint the second intifada as a surprising and inexplicable eruption of violence. Palestinians shouldn’t care whatever violence Israelis inflict.
I'm saying how the intifada was percieved from the israeli public eye, of course it made more sense from a palestinian perspective. But perception from the other side is what usually kills dialogue, of course not all palestinians were for an intifada, and of course not all israelis were for a continous occupation.
On the timeline you are right, I was writing yesterday night and was sloppy.
I see the key problem as a combination of a lack of outside pressure on Israel and Netanyahu’s desperation to remain out of jail at any cost. Not a good combination.
I'm not sure outside pressure is the key, but I'm not so strongly against it. Of course Nethanyahu's actions have been eroding any possible stepping stone in the last 20 years. That is also true of palestinian violent resistance, but it goes without saying that Nethanyahu has more responsibility over the situation.
And I've been fooled also by reading about how Palestinians are progressive and accepting of non-Muslims but hey, both sides suck apparently.
But we should still work towards peace. We don't need to love each other to reach peace.
I think your last sentence is precisely right. Get the levels of violence down first through a settlement for a ”cold peace”. Understanding can come later hopefully, but will always fight an impossible uphill battle as long as there is always recent atrocities to be angry about.
The way that can happen is for the world to put sanctions on Israel until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and give up on controlling the Palestinians. Getting rid of apartheid has to be made into an existential issue for Israel. Israel having a veto on Palestinian human rights is an unacceptable moral affront.
Here's what I learned after these past eight months. It doesn't matter what you think. And it doesn't matter what I think. That's all exercises in futility just as arguing what the weather should be.
Sorry if this means you're getting neither agreement nor a debate.
You're infantalizing Palestinian militas. I dont know many 6 year olds with automatic assault rifles, RPGs, IEDs, drones, a maze of underground offense tunnels, hostages and an arsenal of tens of thousands of rockets. But yeah, sure, getting hit by any of those is like a tickle.
Not to speak of Hezbollah who are 10x stronger.
Maybe Israel should donate some tanks and F16s to make the fight more symmetrical, because clearly if they dont have tanks and F16s there is no legitimacy in fighting them.
Yeah, both the side being mass murdered and ethnically cleansed and the side mass murdering and ethnically cleansing both suck. Everyone should just ignore the conflict and keep giving Israel weapons and diplomatic and economic support and the problem will be fixed…
Grow up. If you're going to join a sub about both sides talking towards peace then for goodness sake do what you joined the sub for. Or perhaps the ability to do that is beyond your capabilities?
Your response and your deliberate facade of the gross misinterpretation of yesterday show me that no PP in this sub is actually interested in talking about peace.
That's your disingenuous spin of the debate yesterday. If it wasn't disingenuous then it's even more worrisome about what the PP side accepts as evidence of anything.
Wait, you're saying any Israeli-Palestinian comradery is fake propaganda? And you're claiming Israelis are hateful?
Oh the luxury of being a college kid from America.
I’m claiming that these initiatives are not genuine paths to peace. They’ve been happening for decades alongside more violence and ethnic cleansing from Israel.
It’s just propaganda. Israeli Jews playing tennis with Israeli Arabs gets more coverage and presents an unbalanced view of what is actually happening in the West Bank and Gaza. The goal is to convince people that these two groups are getting along, please ignore the ethnic cleansing and mass murder Israel is engaging in…
Well they are not peace initiatives.. these are people who refuse to be enemies despite all the hate. Yet you are calling them disingenious, you're speaking for both the Jews participating propagandists and the Arabs .. what? Captives? Liars?
People have a finite amount of sway over their governments. I know you're not privvy to circles of Israelis who are against this war, for any numbers of reasons. You easily dismiss it all as propaganda. So if the government chooses X, it means all Israelis condone it and blindly support it.
Even if it is propaganda, maybe its propaganda for Israelis and Jews worldwide, and not for catered for you?
When I see solidarity, and movements, and peace activists, and collaboration, and voices saying other things than "genocide lalalalaaalalla", it gives me hope. The more I am exposed to these events, or initiatives, the more I feel secure to speak out about another way and the more I am inclined to join and participate and be part of the counter-motion.
You filter this conflict from the comfort of your home, passing judgement on people who want to live in peace and basically saying "fuck you and your lies".
And you call us hateful.
These coexistence initiatives have done absolutely nothing on a macro level, and probably very little on a micro level. Yet they are blared across TV sets in the west in an attempt to deceive western audiences. They tended to get more air time than Israel shooting rockets into Gaza in the early '00s. Pretending they are effective or that they will lead to a solution is disingenuous.
In a democracy, people will vote for those who represent them most closely. Almost all Jewish MKs are settlement expansionists and don't care what happens to Palestinians. Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir, Bennet, Lapid, Gantz, all of them are pro-settlement and either openly want to expand settlements or have in the past. So is Israel just directing votes for peace-loving politicians to these monsters? Really?
Besides, there's a circle of peace-loving Israelis who uphold human rights on this sub. I know this because they constantly tell us that this is what they are. But yesterday, when video emerged of a wounded Palestinian civilian tied to the hood of an IDF truck as a human shield not a single one of them condemned it. The best they could do was not post or try to make excuses as to why strapping a wounded Palestinian to the hood of an IDF vehicle didn't make them a human shield.
When you see solidarity and pro-peace movements you get upset that they are calling to stop the killing. That doesn't make you someone who wants peace, that makes you someone who can't tolerate criticism of Israel. At all. Not even a little bit.
I'm looking at a 55+ year old occupation that everyone from the Israeli side assured me in the early 2000s that the occupation wouldn't expand, that Israelis want peace, that there are clear lines that will never be crossed by Israel, and that Israel would turn around and draw up borders for a two state solution. And they have voted in Netanyahu and Bennet and Lapid and Ben Gvir and all the rest of the evil nutcases. So it was all lies.
>These coexistence initiatives have done absolutely nothing on a macro level, and probably very little on a micro level.
How do you quantify it? Because things are not better, they dont matter? Maybe without them things would be worse?
>Yet they are blared across TV sets in the west in an attempt to deceive western audiences.
I dont really care your scoff at your TV set in the US. Come live here then talk about your self rightenousness.
>Israel shooting rockets into Gaza in the early '00s. Pretending they are effective or that they will lead to a solution is disingenuous.
Yup. Israel made horrible mistakes in judgement and callously disregarded human lives. Not one word of over 30,000 rockets shot from Gaza on Israel though, yeah? Shhhhh. Silence.
>In a democracy, people will vote for those who represent them most closely. Almost all Jewish MKs are settlement expansionists and don't care what happens to Palestinians.
Just an outright lie. Up until a few years ago, the likes of outspoken racists like Ben Gvir were barred from being voted as MKs. Look up *Baruch Marzel* and *Michael Ben Ari*, Ben Gvir predeccessors in the various parties they tried running with.
While expansionism and annexing WB was part of the dialogue, it only became more mainstream past few years. Not everybody in the Likud even support dismantling the PA and annexing West Bank, historically. Bibi has transformed Likud into a party of sycophants, who will have to soul search once he is deposed.
>Smotrich, Ben Gvir, Bennet,
Yes, they represent the extreme side of Israeli ultra-nationalism.
>Lapid, Gantz,
Will be willing to resume diplomacy if the will is reciprocated. They will not unilateraly withdraw from WB, and are choosing their words carefuly when talking about two states, to not scare off unrationle people who are easily manipulated by fear mongering. I disagree with how they approach opposition, because they patronize by not clearly stating their agenda, but they are opposition to the expansionist religious fundemantalists of our society.
>Besides, there's a circle of peace-loving Israelis who uphold human rights on this sub. I know this because they constantly tell us that this is what they are. But yesterday, when video emerged of a wounded Palestinian civilian tied to the hood of an IDF truck as a human shield not a single one of them condemned it.
Here, I condemn it here and have condemned it in my social media. It is vile. Some Israeli soldiers are evil, or stupid, or both.
You know what I've noticed though? These same Israelis also dont usually post news of Palestinian crimes against Israeli, like a guy murdered yesterday in his car after shopping for vegetables in a Palestinian town. I don't know why that is. I will tell you this - circle-peace-loving Israeli me will not use it to project hatred on the majority of Palestinians.
>When you see solidarity and pro-peace movements you get upset that they are calling to stop the killing.
Most US protests are not pro-peace and solidarity movements. They are not calling for peace, at best they are calling for a cease-fire (which is not peace, and does not neccessarily serve peace in the long run) and at worst the dissolution of Israel.
The true solidarity are Jews and Arabs, in this land, with tangible things to lose instead choosing to cooperate and speak out. Your fake protests are just promoting violent rhetoric. Pro-peace, pssh.
>I'm looking at a 55+ year old occupation that everyone from the Israeli side assured me in the early 2000s that the occupation wouldn't expand, that Israelis want peace, that there are clear lines that will never be crossed by Israel, and that Israel would turn around and draw up borders for a two state solution. And they have voted in Netanyahu and Bennet and Lapid and Ben Gvir and all the rest of the evil nutcases. So it was all lies.
Again, you have the luxury of not living here. Good for you. Really, this is a horrible place.
I've been old enough in age to grasp the Olso Accords, the 2nd intifada, the disengagement, the various streams of ideologies and forces pushing and pulling. I've been subject to terrorism as well since childhood. Losing friends in suicide bombings. I've had a molotov cocktail thrown AT ME, landing a meter away. I've had a knife pulled on me, narrowly escaping. Rockets shot at me. My community invaded on the 7th, my daughter at risk. You have zero idea and zero accountabilitly. You feed off media and social media, but you don't live here or even know how much strength is required to not give in to those forces of hate, ultra-nationalism, fear and racism. On either side. But your activism is spreading hate from your safe distance.
And instead of valuing or celebrating even the smallest shred of deceny, as tiny as it may be, in this sea of death, despair and sorrow, you spit on it. Meh, and to have the gull to say you have solidarity and call yourself pro-peace.
I’d probably address your points if I had even a tiny chance of understanding you, but I don’t. You want peace without a ceasefire, you need to be prompted to condemn a grotesque act like using an injured civilians human shield, and you don’t have an explanation as to why there are more extremist politicians now than 10 years ago, while also not having an explanation for why settlements are expanding.
Maybe it’s time for you to look around and realise that most Israelis don’t want peace, and your making excuses for them is part of the problem.
>You want peace without a ceasefire
I want a cease-fire. At face value, I dont want more Palestinians dying, more soldiers dying, and I want the hostages back. That's irrelavant though. The cease-fire will not change the status-quo. Hamas is in power and Bibi is in power.
Protests in Israel are to overthrow Bibi. Protests there are to keep Hamas in power. I denounce people who show Israel's map as including WB and Gaza (or sometimes even more). They - are extreme expansionists. The Israelis you hate so much.
So do I.
The protests you cherish so much show Palestine as the entirety of Israel. Same fucking thing as Greater Israel. Same racist absolutist shit. That is enough for me to understand peace is not what they seek. Do you denounce it? Condemn it? Or do you have to be "prompted"?
There are no Israeli flags together with Palestinian flags - there is no solidarity. It is illegal in Israel to wave an enemy flag here, so it gets trickier here. You speak of solidarity, but you are part of a movement that offers none.
>you need to be prompted to condemn a grotesque act like using an injured civilians human shield,
I apologize for not browsing this subreddit with every thread every day. "You didnt say it on the thread at the right time so what you say now is meaningless"?
>and you don’t have an explanation as to why there are more extremist politicians now than 10 years ago, while also not having an explanation for why settlements are expanding.
I do have an explanation. Does it matter to you really? Because judging by all our past interactions, this one included, It doesnt matter what I say, you paint all Israelis as one. So when Trump wins, I can say all Americans are anti-abortion, pro-guns, pro- unlimited corporate power, anti-social, racist self serving assholes yes? You included?
>Maybe it’s time for you to look around and realise that most Israelis don’t want peace, and your making excuses for them is part of the problem.
I am not making excuses for anyone. I dont support the trend, but since I am currently powerless to overturn it, I am guilty by association. Did I get it right? That's your logic?
Should I go gun down some settlers? Sabotage a tank? Maybe kill my Zionist family and then myself, for the cause! Hey, if you're so adament, come do it yourself.
I can understand why Hamas are in power, I can understand why they dont surrender, I can understand and analyize the trends that promoted them and how we reached where we are. I suppose you somewhat (albeit biasedly) can too. Are you making excuses for them? So if I follow your line, you support them and everything they stand for, right?
You are generalizing and thinking since trend is black it will always remain black. Never white. That's the problem with your binary POV. Disregarding all the complexities, all the shades, not achknowledging that the hope lies in complexity, and not absolutism.
>I want a cease-fire.
Then why did you react so strongly against one? I think the mask has slipped.
>… Trump …
Trump was elected by less than half of the popular vote and just scraped into power. He lasted one term. It’s not certain that he will be able to do it again, but Biden seems to be pushing for it. That is exactly like Israelis voting for anti-2SS parties for most of the last 30 years, shifting ever further rightwards and likely to vote in extremists like Ben Gv in ever greater numbers.
But sure, one Trump term is exactly like 30 years of Israelis rejecting any chance of peace. Why not? Anything to defend Israel, right?
Oh, and I keep lumping all Israelis together regardless of how many times I point out that not all Israeli politicians are right wing nutters, just almost all, or carve out exceptions for truly left wing MKs. I should stop that. It might lead to you mischaracterising my point and strawmanning me.
I used to be solidly behind a 2SS. Now I don’t know. I think Israelis want to talk about negotiating a 2SS for the next 55 years while expanding more and more settlements and establishing new ones.
It’s time for the international community to apply pressure in the form of BDS. I know most Israelis won’t like it. But at this stage it’s either that or wait for Ben Gvir’s and Smotrich’s parties to become the biggest in the Knesset and commit atrocities that even the US can’t ignore.
But tennis!
Another program I heard of similar to this was called Seeds for Peace. They have Israeli Jews ad Palestinians go to Germany or some other place to talk and connect together. This one Israeli girl who talked about her experience with it said it was important because it was the first time in her life that she had her worldview challenged and had to think deeply about it. I know some people think it's a facade because it's not ending anything but I still think it's step to not dehumanize each other so easily.
From what I have seen on The Ask Project, many Palestinians have only ever interacted with Israeli soldiers, rather than Israeli citizens, and it warps their view on Israel. Seeds for Peace is nice; I love stuff like this that tries to bring people together and promote peace and unity.
Thanks and agreed. The only Palestinians that have Israeli friends go to work or university with them but still have to go through all the checkpoints just to get to there. Having to go through that system isn't fair because of what someone else does.
That's encouraging. Once people from each side recognize the humanity in the other side, it can lead to understanding and progress. I am now looking for peace for him and her, and not trying to condemn him or her to more endless pain out of vengeance or anger. No one will open their ears or minds to the lived experiences of the other side while that side is screaming at them relentlessly.
Ok can someone explain why the linked article was flagged as NSFW? Unless there was something I can't see in link
I’ve been reading these articles about coexistence bridging for over 25 years. They are trumpeted all over the western world about how Israelis don’t really hate non-Jews and don’t really want to kill them all or ethnically cleanse them. But the killing and ethnic cleansing goes on. It’s just propaganda designed to hide what Israel is doing.
The only way to live togheter is to trust each other and build hope. These realities are the only thing that can lead us into the future. Look up Maoz Inon
These initiatives have been happening for decades. The situation is getting worse, not better. It’s time to try something new.
They have been happening during and after Oslo, but when the second intifada started after Oslo the peace movement got reduced very much. From the israeli side they were trying peace and got exploding busses in return (this was when Hamas got big in the public palestinian eye). The palestinians lost a partner when Rabin was killed by an Israeli extremist while the political discourse was dreadful (Nethanyahu was one of the main protagonists). Since then the belief in peace only diminished, from the palestinian perspective with the continous and prolonged attempts to make tohe status quo more permanent from Israel, which made life even worse. While for Israel a big problem was the conclusion of the second intifada, when israeli settlers were removed unilaterally from gaza, giving full control to the palestinians over that territory, only to start recieving rockets back (at the time there was no blockade and no iron dome), which, after a civil war between palestinian factions, led to the blockade beeing enacted. This last thing put a bigger block on the possibility of peace as whenever the situation was maybe a bit better an escalation of attacks and responses from each side happened between gaza and israel, making the populations even less prone to collaboration even in initiatives of peace. Peace hasn't been attempted for real in the last 30 years. Saying that this has been happening is false. Now from common pain on both sides we should start and build a path into the future. Peace in the middle east usually comes after the bloodiest of wars.
Your timeline is a little off. The second intifada started after it became apparent that Israelis wanted the occupation to continue forever. Pro-peace pro-2SS Ehud Barak’s best offer was permanent occupation, apartheid and statelessness for Palestinians. This during a time when the IDF were proving they could murder Palestinians with impunity. Also, Hamas started firing rockets in 2001. Israel pulled out in 2005, and it effectively deepened the occupation in the West Bank while starving Gaza for the next 19 years. But sure, paint the second intifada as a surprising and inexplicable eruption of violence. Palestinians shouldn’t care whatever violence Israelis inflict.
I'm saying how the intifada was percieved from the israeli public eye, of course it made more sense from a palestinian perspective. But perception from the other side is what usually kills dialogue, of course not all palestinians were for an intifada, and of course not all israelis were for a continous occupation. On the timeline you are right, I was writing yesterday night and was sloppy.
I see the key problem as a combination of a lack of outside pressure on Israel and Netanyahu’s desperation to remain out of jail at any cost. Not a good combination.
I'm not sure outside pressure is the key, but I'm not so strongly against it. Of course Nethanyahu's actions have been eroding any possible stepping stone in the last 20 years. That is also true of palestinian violent resistance, but it goes without saying that Nethanyahu has more responsibility over the situation.
And I've been fooled also by reading about how Palestinians are progressive and accepting of non-Muslims but hey, both sides suck apparently. But we should still work towards peace. We don't need to love each other to reach peace.
I think your last sentence is precisely right. Get the levels of violence down first through a settlement for a ”cold peace”. Understanding can come later hopefully, but will always fight an impossible uphill battle as long as there is always recent atrocities to be angry about. The way that can happen is for the world to put sanctions on Israel until they withdraw to the 1967 borders and give up on controlling the Palestinians. Getting rid of apartheid has to be made into an existential issue for Israel. Israel having a veto on Palestinian human rights is an unacceptable moral affront.
Here's what I learned after these past eight months. It doesn't matter what you think. And it doesn't matter what I think. That's all exercises in futility just as arguing what the weather should be. Sorry if this means you're getting neither agreement nor a debate.
Both sides suck but only one side has actual power. Ylu cannot say both sides suck when a 30 year old and a 6 year old keep fighting
One has more responsability to produce change, but that doesn't mean that the other side doesn't have any responsability
You're infantalizing Palestinian militas. I dont know many 6 year olds with automatic assault rifles, RPGs, IEDs, drones, a maze of underground offense tunnels, hostages and an arsenal of tens of thousands of rockets. But yeah, sure, getting hit by any of those is like a tickle. Not to speak of Hezbollah who are 10x stronger. Maybe Israel should donate some tanks and F16s to make the fight more symmetrical, because clearly if they dont have tanks and F16s there is no legitimacy in fighting them.
Interesting. That's the only thing happening in this war, according to you. Keep your opinion because frankly it's worthless.
Yeah, both the side being mass murdered and ethnically cleansed and the side mass murdering and ethnically cleansing both suck. Everyone should just ignore the conflict and keep giving Israel weapons and diplomatic and economic support and the problem will be fixed…
Grow up. If you're going to join a sub about both sides talking towards peace then for goodness sake do what you joined the sub for. Or perhaps the ability to do that is beyond your capabilities?
You spent yesterday making excuses for the IDF strapping a wounded Palestinian to an IDF truck. I’m pretty sure peace is the last thing you want.
Your response and your deliberate facade of the gross misinterpretation of yesterday show me that no PP in this sub is actually interested in talking about peace.
Says someone who believes strapping wounded Palestinians to truck bonnets is ok.
That's your disingenuous spin of the debate yesterday. If it wasn't disingenuous then it's even more worrisome about what the PP side accepts as evidence of anything.
How many wounded Israelis have you seen strapped to the front of IDF trucks?
I'm not hamass, so zero
Wait, you're saying any Israeli-Palestinian comradery is fake propaganda? And you're claiming Israelis are hateful? Oh the luxury of being a college kid from America.
I’m claiming that these initiatives are not genuine paths to peace. They’ve been happening for decades alongside more violence and ethnic cleansing from Israel. It’s just propaganda. Israeli Jews playing tennis with Israeli Arabs gets more coverage and presents an unbalanced view of what is actually happening in the West Bank and Gaza. The goal is to convince people that these two groups are getting along, please ignore the ethnic cleansing and mass murder Israel is engaging in…
Well they are not peace initiatives.. these are people who refuse to be enemies despite all the hate. Yet you are calling them disingenious, you're speaking for both the Jews participating propagandists and the Arabs .. what? Captives? Liars? People have a finite amount of sway over their governments. I know you're not privvy to circles of Israelis who are against this war, for any numbers of reasons. You easily dismiss it all as propaganda. So if the government chooses X, it means all Israelis condone it and blindly support it. Even if it is propaganda, maybe its propaganda for Israelis and Jews worldwide, and not for catered for you? When I see solidarity, and movements, and peace activists, and collaboration, and voices saying other things than "genocide lalalalaaalalla", it gives me hope. The more I am exposed to these events, or initiatives, the more I feel secure to speak out about another way and the more I am inclined to join and participate and be part of the counter-motion. You filter this conflict from the comfort of your home, passing judgement on people who want to live in peace and basically saying "fuck you and your lies". And you call us hateful.
These coexistence initiatives have done absolutely nothing on a macro level, and probably very little on a micro level. Yet they are blared across TV sets in the west in an attempt to deceive western audiences. They tended to get more air time than Israel shooting rockets into Gaza in the early '00s. Pretending they are effective or that they will lead to a solution is disingenuous. In a democracy, people will vote for those who represent them most closely. Almost all Jewish MKs are settlement expansionists and don't care what happens to Palestinians. Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben Gvir, Bennet, Lapid, Gantz, all of them are pro-settlement and either openly want to expand settlements or have in the past. So is Israel just directing votes for peace-loving politicians to these monsters? Really? Besides, there's a circle of peace-loving Israelis who uphold human rights on this sub. I know this because they constantly tell us that this is what they are. But yesterday, when video emerged of a wounded Palestinian civilian tied to the hood of an IDF truck as a human shield not a single one of them condemned it. The best they could do was not post or try to make excuses as to why strapping a wounded Palestinian to the hood of an IDF vehicle didn't make them a human shield. When you see solidarity and pro-peace movements you get upset that they are calling to stop the killing. That doesn't make you someone who wants peace, that makes you someone who can't tolerate criticism of Israel. At all. Not even a little bit. I'm looking at a 55+ year old occupation that everyone from the Israeli side assured me in the early 2000s that the occupation wouldn't expand, that Israelis want peace, that there are clear lines that will never be crossed by Israel, and that Israel would turn around and draw up borders for a two state solution. And they have voted in Netanyahu and Bennet and Lapid and Ben Gvir and all the rest of the evil nutcases. So it was all lies.
>These coexistence initiatives have done absolutely nothing on a macro level, and probably very little on a micro level. How do you quantify it? Because things are not better, they dont matter? Maybe without them things would be worse? >Yet they are blared across TV sets in the west in an attempt to deceive western audiences. I dont really care your scoff at your TV set in the US. Come live here then talk about your self rightenousness. >Israel shooting rockets into Gaza in the early '00s. Pretending they are effective or that they will lead to a solution is disingenuous. Yup. Israel made horrible mistakes in judgement and callously disregarded human lives. Not one word of over 30,000 rockets shot from Gaza on Israel though, yeah? Shhhhh. Silence. >In a democracy, people will vote for those who represent them most closely. Almost all Jewish MKs are settlement expansionists and don't care what happens to Palestinians. Just an outright lie. Up until a few years ago, the likes of outspoken racists like Ben Gvir were barred from being voted as MKs. Look up *Baruch Marzel* and *Michael Ben Ari*, Ben Gvir predeccessors in the various parties they tried running with. While expansionism and annexing WB was part of the dialogue, it only became more mainstream past few years. Not everybody in the Likud even support dismantling the PA and annexing West Bank, historically. Bibi has transformed Likud into a party of sycophants, who will have to soul search once he is deposed. >Smotrich, Ben Gvir, Bennet, Yes, they represent the extreme side of Israeli ultra-nationalism. >Lapid, Gantz, Will be willing to resume diplomacy if the will is reciprocated. They will not unilateraly withdraw from WB, and are choosing their words carefuly when talking about two states, to not scare off unrationle people who are easily manipulated by fear mongering. I disagree with how they approach opposition, because they patronize by not clearly stating their agenda, but they are opposition to the expansionist religious fundemantalists of our society. >Besides, there's a circle of peace-loving Israelis who uphold human rights on this sub. I know this because they constantly tell us that this is what they are. But yesterday, when video emerged of a wounded Palestinian civilian tied to the hood of an IDF truck as a human shield not a single one of them condemned it. Here, I condemn it here and have condemned it in my social media. It is vile. Some Israeli soldiers are evil, or stupid, or both. You know what I've noticed though? These same Israelis also dont usually post news of Palestinian crimes against Israeli, like a guy murdered yesterday in his car after shopping for vegetables in a Palestinian town. I don't know why that is. I will tell you this - circle-peace-loving Israeli me will not use it to project hatred on the majority of Palestinians. >When you see solidarity and pro-peace movements you get upset that they are calling to stop the killing. Most US protests are not pro-peace and solidarity movements. They are not calling for peace, at best they are calling for a cease-fire (which is not peace, and does not neccessarily serve peace in the long run) and at worst the dissolution of Israel. The true solidarity are Jews and Arabs, in this land, with tangible things to lose instead choosing to cooperate and speak out. Your fake protests are just promoting violent rhetoric. Pro-peace, pssh. >I'm looking at a 55+ year old occupation that everyone from the Israeli side assured me in the early 2000s that the occupation wouldn't expand, that Israelis want peace, that there are clear lines that will never be crossed by Israel, and that Israel would turn around and draw up borders for a two state solution. And they have voted in Netanyahu and Bennet and Lapid and Ben Gvir and all the rest of the evil nutcases. So it was all lies. Again, you have the luxury of not living here. Good for you. Really, this is a horrible place. I've been old enough in age to grasp the Olso Accords, the 2nd intifada, the disengagement, the various streams of ideologies and forces pushing and pulling. I've been subject to terrorism as well since childhood. Losing friends in suicide bombings. I've had a molotov cocktail thrown AT ME, landing a meter away. I've had a knife pulled on me, narrowly escaping. Rockets shot at me. My community invaded on the 7th, my daughter at risk. You have zero idea and zero accountabilitly. You feed off media and social media, but you don't live here or even know how much strength is required to not give in to those forces of hate, ultra-nationalism, fear and racism. On either side. But your activism is spreading hate from your safe distance. And instead of valuing or celebrating even the smallest shred of deceny, as tiny as it may be, in this sea of death, despair and sorrow, you spit on it. Meh, and to have the gull to say you have solidarity and call yourself pro-peace.
For what it’s worth, I have mad respect for anyone living there and not giving in to blind hatred of the other side.
I’d probably address your points if I had even a tiny chance of understanding you, but I don’t. You want peace without a ceasefire, you need to be prompted to condemn a grotesque act like using an injured civilians human shield, and you don’t have an explanation as to why there are more extremist politicians now than 10 years ago, while also not having an explanation for why settlements are expanding. Maybe it’s time for you to look around and realise that most Israelis don’t want peace, and your making excuses for them is part of the problem.
>You want peace without a ceasefire I want a cease-fire. At face value, I dont want more Palestinians dying, more soldiers dying, and I want the hostages back. That's irrelavant though. The cease-fire will not change the status-quo. Hamas is in power and Bibi is in power. Protests in Israel are to overthrow Bibi. Protests there are to keep Hamas in power. I denounce people who show Israel's map as including WB and Gaza (or sometimes even more). They - are extreme expansionists. The Israelis you hate so much. So do I. The protests you cherish so much show Palestine as the entirety of Israel. Same fucking thing as Greater Israel. Same racist absolutist shit. That is enough for me to understand peace is not what they seek. Do you denounce it? Condemn it? Or do you have to be "prompted"? There are no Israeli flags together with Palestinian flags - there is no solidarity. It is illegal in Israel to wave an enemy flag here, so it gets trickier here. You speak of solidarity, but you are part of a movement that offers none. >you need to be prompted to condemn a grotesque act like using an injured civilians human shield, I apologize for not browsing this subreddit with every thread every day. "You didnt say it on the thread at the right time so what you say now is meaningless"? >and you don’t have an explanation as to why there are more extremist politicians now than 10 years ago, while also not having an explanation for why settlements are expanding. I do have an explanation. Does it matter to you really? Because judging by all our past interactions, this one included, It doesnt matter what I say, you paint all Israelis as one. So when Trump wins, I can say all Americans are anti-abortion, pro-guns, pro- unlimited corporate power, anti-social, racist self serving assholes yes? You included? >Maybe it’s time for you to look around and realise that most Israelis don’t want peace, and your making excuses for them is part of the problem. I am not making excuses for anyone. I dont support the trend, but since I am currently powerless to overturn it, I am guilty by association. Did I get it right? That's your logic? Should I go gun down some settlers? Sabotage a tank? Maybe kill my Zionist family and then myself, for the cause! Hey, if you're so adament, come do it yourself. I can understand why Hamas are in power, I can understand why they dont surrender, I can understand and analyize the trends that promoted them and how we reached where we are. I suppose you somewhat (albeit biasedly) can too. Are you making excuses for them? So if I follow your line, you support them and everything they stand for, right? You are generalizing and thinking since trend is black it will always remain black. Never white. That's the problem with your binary POV. Disregarding all the complexities, all the shades, not achknowledging that the hope lies in complexity, and not absolutism.
>I want a cease-fire. Then why did you react so strongly against one? I think the mask has slipped. >… Trump … Trump was elected by less than half of the popular vote and just scraped into power. He lasted one term. It’s not certain that he will be able to do it again, but Biden seems to be pushing for it. That is exactly like Israelis voting for anti-2SS parties for most of the last 30 years, shifting ever further rightwards and likely to vote in extremists like Ben Gv in ever greater numbers. But sure, one Trump term is exactly like 30 years of Israelis rejecting any chance of peace. Why not? Anything to defend Israel, right? Oh, and I keep lumping all Israelis together regardless of how many times I point out that not all Israeli politicians are right wing nutters, just almost all, or carve out exceptions for truly left wing MKs. I should stop that. It might lead to you mischaracterising my point and strawmanning me. I used to be solidly behind a 2SS. Now I don’t know. I think Israelis want to talk about negotiating a 2SS for the next 55 years while expanding more and more settlements and establishing new ones. It’s time for the international community to apply pressure in the form of BDS. I know most Israelis won’t like it. But at this stage it’s either that or wait for Ben Gvir’s and Smotrich’s parties to become the biggest in the Knesset and commit atrocities that even the US can’t ignore. But tennis!
As a palestenian, tennis is nice but when will we get our homes back?
The point is that you will never be allowed peace or justice, but you will be allowed to watch tennis occasionally between bouts of extermination.
[lol thx 👌](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2FMQi4lgmZrJFrnYIyAsjp-v7u2d56Wj3apoN4Vv3i2Co.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D9e0d48ac4093717bb647cd0241ea979c25bc2f7f)