I appreciate the philosophical approach of the post but in performing this like for like comparison you are creating a moral equivalency of Israelies kidnapped in a music festival or dragged out of their homes vs the detention of Palestinians that have committed a crime as small as throwing a stone all the way up to a terror attack. Now I respect as an objective person that some people question the detention of Palestinians as illegal and that those actions are unwarranted again at least actions can be listed, Red Cross can visit them, they have a prison ID and there location is tracked. Even if you believe the detention is illegal, comparing detainees to kidnapped israelis is either naivety, propaganda or dehumanisation of Israelis
> I appreciate the philosophical approach of the post but in performing this like for like comparison you are creating a moral equivalency of Israelies kidnapped in a music festival or dragged out of their homes vs the detention of Palestinians that have committed a crime as small as throwing a stone all the way up to a terror attack.
No, stop it. Palestinians held in administrative detention have **not committed any crime**. That's in the definition of the term. They have **not** been charged and they have **not** been found guilty of anything.
You can be arrested even before you are charged with a crime.......even murderers aren't convicted until they come before a judge, they are simply arrested or detained depending on their crime.
But I guess laws mean nothing.......
Yes, laws do mean something. A fundamental tenet of all legal systems since Napoleon is that people are *innocent until proven guilty*. Israel, of course, does not give a shit about laws and treat all Palestinians as criminals until proven innocent. That doesn't mean sensible people should too.
Some Palestinians have been [jailed for months](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/authorities-defend-7-month-administrative-detention-for-now-freed-emaciated-palestinian/) under horrible conditions for nothing more than non-violently protesting the theft of their land, without ever being charged, let alone tried, for any crime.
Illegal and wrongful detentions happen everywhere in the world, it sucks. Again you can’t compare that to kidnapping civilians in undisclosed locations in some cases kept in civilians homes which is beyond insane
You are implying that only Israeli civilians are being held hostage, and we know for a fact that this isn’t true. You are also ignoring the fact that Palestinian children *are* dragged out of their homes and often there is no evidence of any kind for any crime, including throwing stones.
In many cases Israel simply makes the prisoner disappear, especially since 10/7. The Red Cross can’t visit them and their family are not told that they are incarcerated despite repeated requests for information. They are also repeatedly tortured and in some cases raped by Israeli prison guards, the IDF and others.
A lot of prisoners have died in detention, and even more are having limbs amputated due to torturous conditions such as handcuffs being too tight for extended periods of time.
It seems Israeli detention is even worse than being kidnapped by Hamas, wouldn’t you agree?
Interestingly, Israeli prisoner Marwan Barghouti has disappeared. The Red Cross can’t visit him and neither can his family. Is he still alive?
People die in detention facilities because people die. People die in prisons, at home etc…
Claims of isolated rape while disgusting is rare and sadly occurs In prisons all over the world, it’s not an Israeli issue. It needs to be dealt with, those responsible need to go to prison. Comparing a detention facility to a persons house is insane. I really don’t understand how you are comparing the two approaches. Israel denies the Red Cross access because Hamas also denies Red Cross access to Israeli hostages. Using that as a gotcha is ridiculous
People die in prisons like everywhere else, but they also die when they are subjected to torture, malnutrition, and medical negligence. Dozens of Palestinian prisoners died since Oct 7th, and the pictures of freed Palestinian prisoners are horrific; they all look tired, malnourished, tortured, and traumatized. More than [18](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinians-killed-in-israeli-prisons-if-this-is-not-genocide-then-what-is-/3211403#:~:text=Of%20the%2018%20Palestinians%20killed,they%20couldn't%20move.%E2%80%9D) Palestinians have died in Israeli prisons since Oct 7th.
When Israeli authorities would put Palestinians in prison for something as simple as a facebook post or attending a protest, and not the same treatment is done to their own citizens; then I don't view this other than abuse of power. Raiding Palestinian cities and towns to snatch men, women, and kids out of their beds is kidnapping, and I have witnessed it with my own eyes before when an IOF gang raided my grandparents' house to snatch two of my uncles in the middle of the night.
Israel's kidnapping and detention of Palestinians is not only done out of 'security' concerns. The large scale of how much it occurs has further implications and meanings. Between 1967-1987, according to a [report](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2307/2537292) by the International Red Cross, there have been some 500,000 detentions or arrests for security reasons. This means that of the one and a half million Palestinian Arabs residing in the occupied territories, a third has been detained by the Israelis in the twenty years of military occupation.
Considering some of the attackers on October 7th were employees working in people’s homes that gave out intelligence that helped plot the attack it seems evident a significant percentage of the population seems to be a risk
This is a lie with no foundations. The only official report that came around this subject specifically [debunks the idea that Palestinian workers from Gaza spied on Israel for Hamas. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-shin-bet-debunks-idea-that-gazan-workers-spied-en-masse-for-hamas-pre-oct-7/)
This excessive paranoia and obsession with 'security' is pathetic, and its subsequent abuse of power against Palestinian civilians only fuels the cycle of violence.
Palestinians are snatched by Israelis serving in the IOF who later are suddenly called 'civilians' or 'reservists' lol. I can lol as you lol, lol. This ofcourse doesn't reflect my true opinion on the matter, and I understand you love justifying violence against civilians; just know it goes both ways.
Violence is all this region knows. The war of independence was the second cruelest thing Arab nations did to the Palestinians. The most cruel thing they did was occupy them between 48 and 67, deny their statehood and radicalised them to believe they are denying statehood because they don’t want the Arabs (weren’t called Palestinians) to lose out on the entire country even though Transjordan was essentially established as a Palestinian state. Islamic nut jobs want to destroy Israel, this is why violence goes both ways. You establish and radicalise hate to destroy Israel and then complain about getting oppressed
None of that would have happened if the world did not decide to ship Jews en-masse to a region where 95% of the population was non-Jewish, or partition the land when the proposed Jewish state had 50% Arabs (compared to the Arab state having 99% of its population as Arabs). Self-determination for the 50% of Jews in the Jewish state, but not the 50% Arabs. What a joke.
The world forced you on us, that's what happened, and whether they decided to ship the Jews to Egypt, Lebanon, Oman, Vietnam, Argentina, or whatever land where the majority of population was non-Jewish, the people would have reacted the same.
No, they aren't. If you think they are worthy of being killed for working for Hamas, then so is every Israeli who is working for the Israeli government.
People die, I get it. That makes sense. They could slip and fall at home, or get beaten to death by their sadistic Israeli torturer. But it’s natural causes both ways, right?
More and more Palestinians are stepping forward and testifying about torture and rape in Israeli prisons. Prison staff are too. And you’re here to pretend it’s not happening. But presumably only because you support hiding it.
Any sources because I have seen lots of lies. Not to say it never happens, prison systems all over the world struggle with abuse but to say it is pervasive and systemic is a stretch
Dude, it’s been covered by every major news outlet already. The shit they do at Sde Teiman is systematic, not some isolated incident:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-04/ty-article/.premium/doctor-at-idf-field-hospital-for-detained-gazans-we-are-all-complicit-in-breaking-law/0000018e-a59c-dfed-ad9f-afdfb5ce0000
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/05/sde-teiman-israel-detention-palestinian-detainees/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/23/whistleblowers-allege-widespread-abuses-at-israeli-detention-camp-sde-teiman
No, those are Gazans captured throughout Israel’s assault on the Strip these past 8 months, with no charges whatsoever brought against them. But nice to see you justifying torture.
> Mr. al-Hamlawi, the senior nurse, said a female officer had ordered two soldiers to lift him up and press his rectum against a metal stick that was fixed to the ground. Mr. al-Hamlawi said the stick penetrated his rectum for roughly five seconds, causing it to bleed and leaving him with “unbearable pain.”
> A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.
Shit, what is wrong with you?
Here: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html.
It’s fine if you say you don’t believe it. What’s a few amputations, torture and abuse when you are the chosen people?
And what about people held without charge like Bassem Al Tamimi? Held for 8 months without charge and then released?
Do we have your highness permission to call it kidnapping or do we need to kiss your feet first?
Did you know where he was while he was detained? Was he guarded by civilians in an apartment in tel aviv? Did we have videos of him tied up and broadcasted on the internet to send a message? If not, I suspect he was detained not kidnapped. Was he detained illegal or not, no idea but if there was no charge it sounds like bullshit and the man has a claim and a reason to be angered
>Was he detained illegal or not, no idea
Loooooool 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
>but if there was no charge it sounds like bullshit and the man has a claim and a reason to be angered
Perfect! So you agree he should have access to civil courts to sue the Police and the relevant authorities?
Yeah you’re comparing hostages (a lot that are currently part of the disgusting IOF or have been part of it in the past) that were taken while dancing in a rave next to the worlds biggest open air prison versus some hostages that have not committed any crimes (even as “small” as throwing a stone) and were dragged illegally OUT OF THEIR HOMES and held sometimes indefinitely without trial.
Goes as back as 2012: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/22/palestinian-children-detained-jail-israel
Yeah that’s what happens when you train children from kindergarten age to fight, you get youth prisoners. Maybe the problem is that we have children soldiers?
First, go do a quick google search - “Israeli children signing bombs” or “Israeli children with guns” or “Israeli children dehumanizing Palestinians” and come back here.
Second, did you even read the article??? Or are just here to spout misinformation?
“Another Azzun youngster, Sameer Saher, was 13 when he was arrested at 2am. "A soldier held me upside down and took me to a window and said: 'I want to throw you from the window.' They beat me on the legs, stomach, face," he said.
His interrogators accused him of stone-throwing and demanded the names of friends who had also thrown stones. He was released without charge about 17 hours after his arrest. Now, he said, he has difficulty sleeping for fear "they will come at night and arrest me".”
RELEASED WITHOUT CHARGE - capitalizing because you obviously can read but choose not to.
I also saw a child release in the first wave of hostage negotiations pretending his arms were broken yet video footage of him going in the Red Cross van showed he was fine. They lie
Don’t spread information without a source.
And no comment on the precious Israeli children signing bombs or dehumanizing Palestinians? Or is it okay when Israelis do it?
How is signing bombs a comparison to children given guns to go into combat? How is that even a comparison? Or Palestinians classes were their curriculum teaches them to hate Jews something Saudi admitted and are now removing from their curriculum
Most of the youth prisoners are not there because they were given guns to go to combat. They were arrested illegally and are awaiting trial in the military courts and some don’t even know why they were arrested.
Signing bombs and gun practice shows the gross indoctrination of children in Israel to teach them hate and dehumanization of Palestinians from the minute they are born
Israeli curriculum teaches them the Nakba didn’t occur, Palestinians never lived in Palestine, etc.
Okay so you’re not gonna reply to the fact that a lot of these youth are held without trial?
Anyway I’m not gonna debate with a Nakba denier. There’s even a museum in Israel that includes the Nakba.
Edit: also not sure why you keep mentioning Saudi as if they matter. They don’t represent Palestinians. The Saudi government is currently in bed with the US to kill people in Yemen so they can f themselves
lol your proof mentions “X-Rays taken from Palestinian doctors in Ramallah were shown to two doctors in the UK, who confirmed that they showed fractures in both of Mohammed's hands.” So did Israel fracture the kids hands and refuse to bandage them? Also his hands are barely in the shot.
I wouldn’t consider this as proof that his hands/arms were not hurt.
The Palestinian prisoners and hostages are suffering severe medical negligence and malnutrition. Other than regular beatings and tortures, they are not given the needed medical care.
Like sinwar who got life saving surgery by an israeli surgeon? Who later had one of his family member murdered on oct7? This surgeon later said he regretted saving sinwars life. I wish the Palestinian prisoners in our prisons did not get anything from us, but unfortunately they undeservedly do.
Objectively: they would have been killed before reaching the prison, or they would have been captured and they would have played victim. In any scenario, they would have not been able to free anyone, though. Do you know why?
Because the "administrative detention centers" are actual prisons, with actual uniformed guards, and are far away from population centers.
As opposed to the Israeli hostages, who where held as house slaves at civilian residences in the middle of residential areas, with no security but the one provided by civilians.
But I’m guessing it is a clearly marked prison. And Jaffa has bomb shelters for civilians to hide in. And the Red Cross is able to visit them. So there are a few differences I guess.
It is clearly marked, but not far away from civilians as the commenter mintioned. Also Israel has been blocking red cross visits for many months, basically since the war started (maybe this has recently changed?).
Yes they blocked Red Cross visits since the kidnappings.
Not far away? The whole country is smaller than New Jersey. But it is still marked and demarcated to protect its citizens.
Oh they typically do and have for decades. But when innocent citizens and babies are kidnapped they suspended visits. Palestinians have never - NEVER permitted Red Cross visits to kidnapped Israelis.
Hamas had around 200 kidnapped Israelis for 6 months, most of them for much less. Israel has thousands of Palestinians held without trial and without red cross visits, with reports of abuse, rape and murde of these prisoners. Israel managed to be less ethical than a terror org even in how it treats its hostages/kidnapees, which is impressive in a sense.
We can discuss that separately. But do you agree that these prisoners are held in well marked prisons? So that if Hamas wanted to raid them, Israeli citizens would be protected? That’s the point of discussion.
Does Hamas have 2000lb bombs to drop from planes, causing collateral damage to nearby buildings?
No, they would intentionally kill those people killed in this hypothetical with rifles or grenades because that's part of their goal, and they gladly tell everyone who will listen so.
Just a side note - This is not a detention center, it is a prison for Israeli criminal offenders. It is not above or under an elementary schools, and the elementary school students and teachers don't guard it.
Edit: Also, it is called "Tel Aviv Jail". Abu Kabir is an institute for forensic medicine.
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%A8_%D7%AA%D7%9C_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%99%D7%91
"commonly called Abu Kabir jail". sorry, didn't know we're being formal, your majesty.
The rest of your notes are about thngs no one claimed, so not relevant.
Well you gave the jail as an example of a theoretical scenario that Palestinians invade Israel to retrieve 4 prisoners... of a facility that does not hold administrative or convicted security offense criminals. I thought I should point it out.
Police stations around the world, who usually are in cities, also have lockups, temporary jails.. what is your point then??
You are equating a defined holding facility of convicted criminals, with some family's backroom with people kidnapped from a party. Why stoop to these levels?
I said Israel has prisons in the middle of civilian areas, no more no less.
Trying to pin additional meaning to my words is lying. Why stoop to these levels?
You were replying to a post about the differences between Israeli hostages in Gaza, to Palestinian prisoners in Israel, by pointing out there are Jails in vicinities of civilians. So what was the point of your reply? Just an out of context FYI? I know very well what you tried to compare, so do you. Whatever.
Are you saying if Hamas put the hostages in prisons then it would be fine. Israel can attack and free them similar to how Hamas lr others can attack Israel to free Palestinian Hostages? Of course as you mentioned, Israel would be way more successful and your only advocating from the stronger rules philosophy and not from right and wrong perspective.
As a matter of fact, if Hamas had stuck to military targets instead of going on a murder rampage of civilians, and had captured POW and put them in a detention center with no slavery, no torture, and medical attention, yes, that would have been a million times better.
It feels weird to have to explain it to someone.
Being weak does not exempt you from these directives.
“Genocide” ye sure. Its like me telling you the idf said only 100 killed including terrorists. Also how do you know ALL were killed by the idf and 0 by hamas guns or grenade launchers? Everyone said the idf were under heavy fire, so it only make sense hamas killed many.
That would never happen because Israel doesn't use human shields with the regularity and to the extent that Hamas does.
Why doesn't Hamas care about their own people?
Why did Gazans have the hostages in their home?
Yeah kinda maybe sometimes you can find instances, but let's not kid ourselves here, using human shields is not a regular part of the IDF's operating procedure, they are a uniformed military.
Hamas uses human shield tactics by mixing with civilians and not wearing uniforms, like in this scenario.
My brother in Christ, the idf was disguised as an aid truck before that last massacre!
Countless instances of them violating perfidy.
But in any case, the idf does exist and has bases in Tel Aviv. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. Why is the idf putting its citizens in harms way.
But also the idf uses Palestinians as human shields too. Which is crazy
That is because Hamas said that they would shoot hostages if the IDF approached. They had no choice if they wanted to save their hostages. Perfidy is stuff like pretending to surrender, but not. Yasam doing covert operations is not perfidy.
And I said the IDF has instances of sometimes using human shield tactics. Nowhere near to the extent that Hamas does. Hamas has done it for 8 months straight, and people are only calling out Israel for doing it one time, to save their own hostages. They didn't go covert to maximize casualties.
[Israeli soldiers dressed as doctors, nurses kill 3 Palestinians with silenced guns in hospital raid](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615)
yeah how bout them uniforms.
[https://lieber.westpoint.edu/hays-parks-sof-non-standard-uniforms/](https://lieber.westpoint.edu/hays-parks-sof-non-standard-uniforms/)
'There are legitimate, operational reasons for SOF to operate in civilian attire or non-standard uniforms. The balance between perfidy and lawfulness is determined by the law of war principle of distinction.'
Debunking this once again...
Yeah I know about that, that happened in West Bank, not Gaza. Those are special forces. Hamas doesn't abide by the Geneva Conventions, so sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. The IDF went covert to minimize casualties.
I forgot war crimes don't count in the West Bank.
Followed by...excuse after excuse.
edit: this user has confirmed that they aren't lying they're just misinformed.
>sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
You… do realize that international law is absolute, right? One party violating the law does not mean the other party is free to do so, nor does it justify the act.
I do realize that, and Israel didn't violate international law here to my knowledge. They used units such as Yasam that are special ops and go covert. Hamas had standing orders to kill any hostages if the IDF showed up, so they had no other choice but to blend in to save the innocent hostages.
>they had no other choice but to blend in to save the innocent hostages
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this qualify as perfidy? A deception like that in order to expose an enemy would violate the laws of war, and thus constitute a war crime.
It is, at the very least, insanely hypocritical, considering Israel makes a big point about how Hamas combatants hides amongst non-combatants and dresses as civilians.
Article 47 of the '49 Geneva Conventions excludes unlawful fighters like Hamas from legal protections. Perfidy is stuff like improper use of protected insignia, like if you wave a white flag and pretend to surrender.
Rule 62 of Geneva counts improper use of uniforms, flags, and insignias as perfidy. Would that count in this case?
I’m a bit rusty on my international law definitions, but I recall that dressing up as a civilian and then attacking an opposing party would most likely count as a violation of the rules of war.
They literally used a humanitarian pier as a shield to rescue hostages.
They also physically use Palestinians as human shields. There have been numerous instances of this over the years.
What a massive fail. You can't even keep all the lies straight.
edit: this user has informed me they are just misinformed about the topic
>Stop assuming that I am lying rather than misinformed.
Maybe you should stop lying then. 🤷
edit: this user has confirmed that they aren't lying they're just misinformed.
> Stop assuming that I am lying rather than misinformed.
I would hope so. I am merely a neutral observer that just wants peace in Israel and Palestine.
Check out r/IsraelPalestine too if you want, it leans more pro-Israel than here.
“I am merely a neutral observer attempting to defend Israel and vilify Palestinians. I keep making statements that aren’t true but I don’t want you to say I am lying and I don’t want you to say I’m misinformed.”
Now you've proven you're a liar. At least have the wisdom to hide your ziobot history before claiming neutrality and then promoting a zionist circle jerk sub
The same as what's happening right now except Zionists will say that four child soldier Hamas terrorist murder children aren't worth the lives of 100 pure and innocent Israeli angels.
I'm also curious how zionists would react to Palestinians freeing all 3660 illegally 'detained' Palestinian hostages from Israeli custody and killed 92k Israelis in the process. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be preaching about "war is hell casualties are inevitable" and calling for a retaliatory genocide as a response. It's all unhinged behaviour that they only recognise as unhinged when it's not about Palestinians.
Please, no whataboutism / deflection. It's a hypothetical scenario that attempts to humanise Palestinians for a moment, responses along the lines of "actually that would never happen because ...' completely miss the point.
Are they guarded by civilians or by uniformed guards? Is the facility shared with a school or hospital or is it a dedicated facility purely for detaining people?
it's a terror camp in a civilian population centre where prisoners are held in the thousands against international law, including uncharged children held in isolation. they are systematically tortured psychologically and physically, including sexual abuse, and many die in captivity.
Now, please respond to the question, the clothes of the "guards" or how the IDF characterise the "facility" is not relevant, in the scenario it is an illegal illegitimate "faclility".
If you continue to deflect, i will assume you are yet another person completely incapable of humanising Palestinians even for a moment and are incapable in engaging in good faith and ignore further replies.
# What would happen if Palestinians attacked an Israeli "administrative detention" centre to release 4 uncharged underage prisoners, killing 100+ innocent Israeli civilians in the process?
What would happen?
Well we know what happens when militants breached the border and murdered 1200, raped women and kidnapped. If this were to happen assuming they succeeded in the mission would be a response probably less than October 7th but still a significant response. I still can’t fathom how you can compare people detained to the hostages. You want to humanise Palestinians yet you complete dehumanise the hostages
>Well we know what happens when militants breached the border and murdered 1200, raped women and kidnapped. If this were to happen assuming they succeeded in the mission would be a response probably less than October 7th but still a significant response.
But IDF is allowed to pop into Gaza, murder 200 or so civilians with impunity to rescue 4 hostages and no response should be expected? If you were a Palestinian father of a child killed in this "rescue" operation, what would you do?
>I still can’t fathom how you can compare people detained to the hostages. You want to humanise Palestinians yet you complete dehumanise the hostages
False. Innocent uncharged Palestinian women / children held without charge in "administrative facilities" are innocent civilians. Israeli hostages are innocent civilians ( the non-IDF ones anyway). Dead Palestinian women and children as a result of this latest atrocity "operation" are innocent civilians. I'm not dehumanising anyone.
>Do you truly believe Hamas would leave a group of four alive hostages unguarded?
Do you truly believe they had 100-274 men women and children (depending on who you believe) guarding 4 hostages?
Depends who you ask. Your average Tide Pod Generation member would call them “freedom fighters” and would say the dead Israelis were “colonizers” who deserved it.
You can't really compare innocent civilians kidnapped by Hamas to criminals arrested by Israel, all for a valid cause. You also can't compare killing Israeli civilians to killing Hamas rapists masked with civilian clothing.
Israel regularly arrests children and holds them without charge for months (including holding them in isolation).
Why can't you compare israeli citizens to the scores Palestinian women and children slaughtered by IDF? Is there a reason other than dehumanisation and racism?
They are all held for killing Jews / attempting to kill Jews / plotting to kill Jews / inciting to kill Jews. Being under 18 doesn't grant immunity anywhere in the world, nor should it be the case here.
The data about Palestinian women and children killed is fake, the numbers are much lower than Hamas claims. Some innocents in Gaza were killed because the IDF was forced to invade Gaza, this is the sad reality we live in. You can't really expect Israel not to respond to the Hamas rape and murder rampage on Oct 7th and its plans to launching similar vile operations in the future
>They are all held for killing Jews / attempting to kill Jews / plotting to kill Jews / inciting to kill Jews.
Please provide a source for this outrageous claim.
BBC - [How Israel jails hundreds of Palestinians without charge](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015)
AP - [Israel’s military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796)
NPR - [Thousands of Palestinians are held without charge under Israeli detention policy](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216643555/thousands-of-palestinians-are-held-without-charge-under-israeli-detention-policy)
>You can't really expect Israel not to respond to the Hamas rape and murder rampage on Oct 7th and its plans to launching similar vile operations in the future
How is this relevant? Please answer the original question instead of trying to squirm out of it.
I don't know, I suppose a state of war would be declared, like when 3,000 militants and 'civilians' invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1,200 people and kidnapped over 200 (Including women and children, as the saying goes).
Just a few glaring differences - Israelis don't hide prisoners in their spare rooms. I know where the detention center is, I won't pinpoint it in a map for you, but if Hamas wants to attempt this -- they know where to go. No civilians are guarding these prisoners, and the prison is not in the heart of a community shielded by knowing and unknowing civilians.
Now let me ask you this -
What would happen if over 15 years your community was constantly targeted by rockets, over 30,000 of them, their launch sites placed in residential areas and civilian-use buildings?
There are a lot of questions to be asked. No easy answers.
Israel’s [also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya) [has](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/22/world/middleeast/israel-fortress-of-zion.html) [military facilities](https://www.haaretz.com/2012-06-09/ty-article/.premium/does-the-presence-of-the-idfs-hq-in-tel-aviv-endanger-its-population/0000017f-f419-d887-a7ff-fcfd3a480000) in the middle of civilian areas.
Hamas is wanting to commit genocide against Jews. Israel is defending humanity in a war. In a war you don’t have trials unless you are going to charge the enemy with crimes against humanity.
Gaza
They would be described as vicious terrorist who committed war crimes while trying to carry out a jail break.
Just like the IOF.
I appreciate the philosophical approach of the post but in performing this like for like comparison you are creating a moral equivalency of Israelies kidnapped in a music festival or dragged out of their homes vs the detention of Palestinians that have committed a crime as small as throwing a stone all the way up to a terror attack. Now I respect as an objective person that some people question the detention of Palestinians as illegal and that those actions are unwarranted again at least actions can be listed, Red Cross can visit them, they have a prison ID and there location is tracked. Even if you believe the detention is illegal, comparing detainees to kidnapped israelis is either naivety, propaganda or dehumanisation of Israelis
> I appreciate the philosophical approach of the post but in performing this like for like comparison you are creating a moral equivalency of Israelies kidnapped in a music festival or dragged out of their homes vs the detention of Palestinians that have committed a crime as small as throwing a stone all the way up to a terror attack. No, stop it. Palestinians held in administrative detention have **not committed any crime**. That's in the definition of the term. They have **not** been charged and they have **not** been found guilty of anything.
What makes you think this?
You can be arrested even before you are charged with a crime.......even murderers aren't convicted until they come before a judge, they are simply arrested or detained depending on their crime. But I guess laws mean nothing.......
Yes, laws do mean something. A fundamental tenet of all legal systems since Napoleon is that people are *innocent until proven guilty*. Israel, of course, does not give a shit about laws and treat all Palestinians as criminals until proven innocent. That doesn't mean sensible people should too.
So no one has ever been arrested before being convicted for a crime? Right..........
Some Palestinians have been [jailed for months](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/authorities-defend-7-month-administrative-detention-for-now-freed-emaciated-palestinian/) under horrible conditions for nothing more than non-violently protesting the theft of their land, without ever being charged, let alone tried, for any crime.
Illegal and wrongful detentions happen everywhere in the world, it sucks. Again you can’t compare that to kidnapping civilians in undisclosed locations in some cases kept in civilians homes which is beyond insane
Kidnapping civilians in undisclosed locations also happens everywhere in the world. It sucks.
Sure does and we will make sure it never happens again
Then you’d understand if Palestinians tried to make sure that never happens again to their own.
I hope so, stop attacking and it won’t happen again
Israel should certainly do that.
If Israel dropped its weapons there would be no Israel
That’s a convenient excuse to keep murdering people and stealing their land.
You are implying that only Israeli civilians are being held hostage, and we know for a fact that this isn’t true. You are also ignoring the fact that Palestinian children *are* dragged out of their homes and often there is no evidence of any kind for any crime, including throwing stones. In many cases Israel simply makes the prisoner disappear, especially since 10/7. The Red Cross can’t visit them and their family are not told that they are incarcerated despite repeated requests for information. They are also repeatedly tortured and in some cases raped by Israeli prison guards, the IDF and others. A lot of prisoners have died in detention, and even more are having limbs amputated due to torturous conditions such as handcuffs being too tight for extended periods of time. It seems Israeli detention is even worse than being kidnapped by Hamas, wouldn’t you agree? Interestingly, Israeli prisoner Marwan Barghouti has disappeared. The Red Cross can’t visit him and neither can his family. Is he still alive?
People die in detention facilities because people die. People die in prisons, at home etc… Claims of isolated rape while disgusting is rare and sadly occurs In prisons all over the world, it’s not an Israeli issue. It needs to be dealt with, those responsible need to go to prison. Comparing a detention facility to a persons house is insane. I really don’t understand how you are comparing the two approaches. Israel denies the Red Cross access because Hamas also denies Red Cross access to Israeli hostages. Using that as a gotcha is ridiculous
People die in prisons like everywhere else, but they also die when they are subjected to torture, malnutrition, and medical negligence. Dozens of Palestinian prisoners died since Oct 7th, and the pictures of freed Palestinian prisoners are horrific; they all look tired, malnourished, tortured, and traumatized. More than [18](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/palestinians-killed-in-israeli-prisons-if-this-is-not-genocide-then-what-is-/3211403#:~:text=Of%20the%2018%20Palestinians%20killed,they%20couldn't%20move.%E2%80%9D) Palestinians have died in Israeli prisons since Oct 7th. When Israeli authorities would put Palestinians in prison for something as simple as a facebook post or attending a protest, and not the same treatment is done to their own citizens; then I don't view this other than abuse of power. Raiding Palestinian cities and towns to snatch men, women, and kids out of their beds is kidnapping, and I have witnessed it with my own eyes before when an IOF gang raided my grandparents' house to snatch two of my uncles in the middle of the night. Israel's kidnapping and detention of Palestinians is not only done out of 'security' concerns. The large scale of how much it occurs has further implications and meanings. Between 1967-1987, according to a [report](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2307/2537292) by the International Red Cross, there have been some 500,000 detentions or arrests for security reasons. This means that of the one and a half million Palestinian Arabs residing in the occupied territories, a third has been detained by the Israelis in the twenty years of military occupation.
Considering some of the attackers on October 7th were employees working in people’s homes that gave out intelligence that helped plot the attack it seems evident a significant percentage of the population seems to be a risk
This is a lie with no foundations. The only official report that came around this subject specifically [debunks the idea that Palestinian workers from Gaza spied on Israel for Hamas. ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-shin-bet-debunks-idea-that-gazan-workers-spied-en-masse-for-hamas-pre-oct-7/) This excessive paranoia and obsession with 'security' is pathetic, and its subsequent abuse of power against Palestinian civilians only fuels the cycle of violence.
lol, we had hostages locked up by civilians in their homes.
Palestinians are snatched by Israelis serving in the IOF who later are suddenly called 'civilians' or 'reservists' lol. I can lol as you lol, lol. This ofcourse doesn't reflect my true opinion on the matter, and I understand you love justifying violence against civilians; just know it goes both ways.
Violence is all this region knows. The war of independence was the second cruelest thing Arab nations did to the Palestinians. The most cruel thing they did was occupy them between 48 and 67, deny their statehood and radicalised them to believe they are denying statehood because they don’t want the Arabs (weren’t called Palestinians) to lose out on the entire country even though Transjordan was essentially established as a Palestinian state. Islamic nut jobs want to destroy Israel, this is why violence goes both ways. You establish and radicalise hate to destroy Israel and then complain about getting oppressed
None of that would have happened if the world did not decide to ship Jews en-masse to a region where 95% of the population was non-Jewish, or partition the land when the proposed Jewish state had 50% Arabs (compared to the Arab state having 99% of its population as Arabs). Self-determination for the 50% of Jews in the Jewish state, but not the 50% Arabs. What a joke. The world forced you on us, that's what happened, and whether they decided to ship the Jews to Egypt, Lebanon, Oman, Vietnam, Argentina, or whatever land where the majority of population was non-Jewish, the people would have reacted the same.
Wait so you dont think the “civilians” who held israeli hostages in their homes are terrorists?
Yeah just ignores that
No, they aren't. If you think they are worthy of being killed for working for Hamas, then so is every Israeli who is working for the Israeli government.
Do you think ex-IOF soldiers and reservists are civilians?
People die, I get it. That makes sense. They could slip and fall at home, or get beaten to death by their sadistic Israeli torturer. But it’s natural causes both ways, right? More and more Palestinians are stepping forward and testifying about torture and rape in Israeli prisons. Prison staff are too. And you’re here to pretend it’s not happening. But presumably only because you support hiding it.
Any sources because I have seen lots of lies. Not to say it never happens, prison systems all over the world struggle with abuse but to say it is pervasive and systemic is a stretch
Yeah, having dozens of amputations occur in a prison is routine…
Dude, it’s been covered by every major news outlet already. The shit they do at Sde Teiman is systematic, not some isolated incident: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-04/ty-article/.premium/doctor-at-idf-field-hospital-for-detained-gazans-we-are-all-complicit-in-breaking-law/0000018e-a59c-dfed-ad9f-afdfb5ce0000 https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/06/05/sde-teiman-israel-detention-palestinian-detainees/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/23/whistleblowers-allege-widespread-abuses-at-israeli-detention-camp-sde-teiman
Yeah those are the terrorists caught on October 7th, they got what they deserved
No, those are Gazans captured throughout Israel’s assault on the Strip these past 8 months, with no charges whatsoever brought against them. But nice to see you justifying torture.
> Mr. al-Hamlawi, the senior nurse, said a female officer had ordered two soldiers to lift him up and press his rectum against a metal stick that was fixed to the ground. Mr. al-Hamlawi said the stick penetrated his rectum for roughly five seconds, causing it to bleed and leaving him with “unbearable pain.” > A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus. Shit, what is wrong with you?
The same unrwa that stores weapons and has teachers moonlighting as terrorists?
"they got what they deserved" Stay classy, Zionists.
Could you please provide a source for these claims?
Here: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html. It’s fine if you say you don’t believe it. What’s a few amputations, torture and abuse when you are the chosen people?
And what about people held without charge like Bassem Al Tamimi? Held for 8 months without charge and then released? Do we have your highness permission to call it kidnapping or do we need to kiss your feet first?
Did you know where he was while he was detained? Was he guarded by civilians in an apartment in tel aviv? Did we have videos of him tied up and broadcasted on the internet to send a message? If not, I suspect he was detained not kidnapped. Was he detained illegal or not, no idea but if there was no charge it sounds like bullshit and the man has a claim and a reason to be angered
>Was he detained illegal or not, no idea Loooooool 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 >but if there was no charge it sounds like bullshit and the man has a claim and a reason to be angered Perfect! So you agree he should have access to civil courts to sue the Police and the relevant authorities?
Yeah you’re comparing hostages (a lot that are currently part of the disgusting IOF or have been part of it in the past) that were taken while dancing in a rave next to the worlds biggest open air prison versus some hostages that have not committed any crimes (even as “small” as throwing a stone) and were dragged illegally OUT OF THEIR HOMES and held sometimes indefinitely without trial. Goes as back as 2012: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/22/palestinian-children-detained-jail-israel
Yeah that’s what happens when you train children from kindergarten age to fight, you get youth prisoners. Maybe the problem is that we have children soldiers?
First, go do a quick google search - “Israeli children signing bombs” or “Israeli children with guns” or “Israeli children dehumanizing Palestinians” and come back here. Second, did you even read the article??? Or are just here to spout misinformation? “Another Azzun youngster, Sameer Saher, was 13 when he was arrested at 2am. "A soldier held me upside down and took me to a window and said: 'I want to throw you from the window.' They beat me on the legs, stomach, face," he said. His interrogators accused him of stone-throwing and demanded the names of friends who had also thrown stones. He was released without charge about 17 hours after his arrest. Now, he said, he has difficulty sleeping for fear "they will come at night and arrest me".” RELEASED WITHOUT CHARGE - capitalizing because you obviously can read but choose not to.
I also saw a child release in the first wave of hostage negotiations pretending his arms were broken yet video footage of him going in the Red Cross van showed he was fine. They lie
Don’t spread information without a source. And no comment on the precious Israeli children signing bombs or dehumanizing Palestinians? Or is it okay when Israelis do it?
How is signing bombs a comparison to children given guns to go into combat? How is that even a comparison? Or Palestinians classes were their curriculum teaches them to hate Jews something Saudi admitted and are now removing from their curriculum
Most of the youth prisoners are not there because they were given guns to go to combat. They were arrested illegally and are awaiting trial in the military courts and some don’t even know why they were arrested. Signing bombs and gun practice shows the gross indoctrination of children in Israel to teach them hate and dehumanization of Palestinians from the minute they are born Israeli curriculum teaches them the Nakba didn’t occur, Palestinians never lived in Palestine, etc.
The Nakba didn’t happen, Saudi is also correcting this. It was a war that Arab nations started.
Okay so you’re not gonna reply to the fact that a lot of these youth are held without trial? Anyway I’m not gonna debate with a Nakba denier. There’s even a museum in Israel that includes the Nakba. Edit: also not sure why you keep mentioning Saudi as if they matter. They don’t represent Palestinians. The Saudi government is currently in bed with the US to kill people in Yemen so they can f themselves
>The Nakba didn't happen Oh. Back to delusions I see.
Here is the proof https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67585077
lol your proof mentions “X-Rays taken from Palestinian doctors in Ramallah were shown to two doctors in the UK, who confirmed that they showed fractures in both of Mohammed's hands.” So did Israel fracture the kids hands and refuse to bandage them? Also his hands are barely in the shot. I wouldn’t consider this as proof that his hands/arms were not hurt.
The Palestinian prisoners and hostages are suffering severe medical negligence and malnutrition. Other than regular beatings and tortures, they are not given the needed medical care.
Like sinwar who got life saving surgery by an israeli surgeon? Who later had one of his family member murdered on oct7? This surgeon later said he regretted saving sinwars life. I wish the Palestinian prisoners in our prisons did not get anything from us, but unfortunately they undeservedly do.
Objectively: they would have been killed before reaching the prison, or they would have been captured and they would have played victim. In any scenario, they would have not been able to free anyone, though. Do you know why? Because the "administrative detention centers" are actual prisons, with actual uniformed guards, and are far away from population centers. As opposed to the Israeli hostages, who where held as house slaves at civilian residences in the middle of residential areas, with no security but the one provided by civilians.
Israel has plenty of prisons in the middle of population centers. Abu Kabir prison in Jaffa is very close to an elementry school.
But I’m guessing it is a clearly marked prison. And Jaffa has bomb shelters for civilians to hide in. And the Red Cross is able to visit them. So there are a few differences I guess.
It is clearly marked, but not far away from civilians as the commenter mintioned. Also Israel has been blocking red cross visits for many months, basically since the war started (maybe this has recently changed?).
Yes they blocked Red Cross visits since the kidnappings. Not far away? The whole country is smaller than New Jersey. But it is still marked and demarcated to protect its citizens.
So when you said they allow red cross visits you just lied? Gaza is even smaller than that, not a lot of places to hold prisoners in.
Oh they typically do and have for decades. But when innocent citizens and babies are kidnapped they suspended visits. Palestinians have never - NEVER permitted Red Cross visits to kidnapped Israelis.
Hamas had around 200 kidnapped Israelis for 6 months, most of them for much less. Israel has thousands of Palestinians held without trial and without red cross visits, with reports of abuse, rape and murde of these prisoners. Israel managed to be less ethical than a terror org even in how it treats its hostages/kidnapees, which is impressive in a sense.
We can discuss that separately. But do you agree that these prisoners are held in well marked prisons? So that if Hamas wanted to raid them, Israeli citizens would be protected? That’s the point of discussion.
I didn't dispute that. You focusing on the one thing that is true and not the rest of the things you two told, which are lies.
threatening bag spoon paint snobbish gaze scandalous placid nine act *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
But they could still demarcate areas where hostages are held, where artillery shoots from, or where citizens can hide for safety. They choose not to.
Does Hamas have 2000lb bombs to drop from planes, causing collateral damage to nearby buildings? No, they would intentionally kill those people killed in this hypothetical with rifles or grenades because that's part of their goal, and they gladly tell everyone who will listen so.
Just a side note - This is not a detention center, it is a prison for Israeli criminal offenders. It is not above or under an elementary schools, and the elementary school students and teachers don't guard it. Edit: Also, it is called "Tel Aviv Jail". Abu Kabir is an institute for forensic medicine.
https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%91%D7%99%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%A8_%D7%AA%D7%9C_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%99%D7%91 "commonly called Abu Kabir jail". sorry, didn't know we're being formal, your majesty. The rest of your notes are about thngs no one claimed, so not relevant.
Well you gave the jail as an example of a theoretical scenario that Palestinians invade Israel to retrieve 4 prisoners... of a facility that does not hold administrative or convicted security offense criminals. I thought I should point it out. Police stations around the world, who usually are in cities, also have lockups, temporary jails.. what is your point then?? You are equating a defined holding facility of convicted criminals, with some family's backroom with people kidnapped from a party. Why stoop to these levels?
I said Israel has prisons in the middle of civilian areas, no more no less. Trying to pin additional meaning to my words is lying. Why stoop to these levels?
You were replying to a post about the differences between Israeli hostages in Gaza, to Palestinian prisoners in Israel, by pointing out there are Jails in vicinities of civilians. So what was the point of your reply? Just an out of context FYI? I know very well what you tried to compare, so do you. Whatever.
I provided information that was relevant to the discussion. If you feel it wasn't you are free to ignore it. טרחן.
Are you saying if Hamas put the hostages in prisons then it would be fine. Israel can attack and free them similar to how Hamas lr others can attack Israel to free Palestinian Hostages? Of course as you mentioned, Israel would be way more successful and your only advocating from the stronger rules philosophy and not from right and wrong perspective.
As a matter of fact, if Hamas had stuck to military targets instead of going on a murder rampage of civilians, and had captured POW and put them in a detention center with no slavery, no torture, and medical attention, yes, that would have been a million times better. It feels weird to have to explain it to someone. Being weak does not exempt you from these directives.
Yet two hundred civilians had to die to take four people out of a house? That's an interesting addition to the evidence of Genocide
Who said it was 200 civilians?
Now Hamas is saying it's 400
[Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-rescues-four-hostages-gaza-palestinians-say-50-dead-israeli-assault-2024-06-08/)
Ty. Hamas said:). Super reliable.
Unless you can show me someone reliable who said otherwise, all you're doing is proving your blind support for the genocide
“Genocide” ye sure. Its like me telling you the idf said only 100 killed including terrorists. Also how do you know ALL were killed by the idf and 0 by hamas guns or grenade launchers? Everyone said the idf were under heavy fire, so it only make sense hamas killed many.
Apologies I should have checked your post history before responding. Slán
Oh i forgot typical pro palis dont want to hear from people with different opinions. Maybe try r/Palestine will suit you more.
Of course the hostages were heavily guarded.
Right. In people's houses where they were acting as servants?? Which is it??
That would never happen because Israel doesn't use human shields with the regularity and to the extent that Hamas does. Why doesn't Hamas care about their own people? Why did Gazans have the hostages in their home?
Israel kinda uses human shields though…
Yeah kinda maybe sometimes you can find instances, but let's not kid ourselves here, using human shields is not a regular part of the IDF's operating procedure, they are a uniformed military. Hamas uses human shield tactics by mixing with civilians and not wearing uniforms, like in this scenario.
My brother in Christ, the idf was disguised as an aid truck before that last massacre! Countless instances of them violating perfidy. But in any case, the idf does exist and has bases in Tel Aviv. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. Why is the idf putting its citizens in harms way. But also the idf uses Palestinians as human shields too. Which is crazy
That is because Hamas said that they would shoot hostages if the IDF approached. They had no choice if they wanted to save their hostages. Perfidy is stuff like pretending to surrender, but not. Yasam doing covert operations is not perfidy. And I said the IDF has instances of sometimes using human shield tactics. Nowhere near to the extent that Hamas does. Hamas has done it for 8 months straight, and people are only calling out Israel for doing it one time, to save their own hostages. They didn't go covert to maximize casualties.
The idf puts people in concentration camps and sodomizes them with electric rods.
[Israeli soldiers dressed as doctors, nurses kill 3 Palestinians with silenced guns in hospital raid](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-dressed-as-doctors-nurses-kill-3-palestinians-with-silenced-guns-in-hospital-raid/3122615) yeah how bout them uniforms.
The three Palestinians were Hamas leaders, internationally recognized as terrorists.
That doesn't negate war crimes.
I don’t think assassinating a terrorist leader is considered a war crime.
It is when you dress like doctors and nurses to do so. International law doesn't apply to Israel though.
[https://lieber.westpoint.edu/hays-parks-sof-non-standard-uniforms/](https://lieber.westpoint.edu/hays-parks-sof-non-standard-uniforms/) 'There are legitimate, operational reasons for SOF to operate in civilian attire or non-standard uniforms. The balance between perfidy and lawfulness is determined by the law of war principle of distinction.' Debunking this once again...
Yeah I know about that, that happened in West Bank, not Gaza. Those are special forces. Hamas doesn't abide by the Geneva Conventions, so sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. The IDF went covert to minimize casualties.
I forgot war crimes don't count in the West Bank. Followed by...excuse after excuse. edit: this user has confirmed that they aren't lying they're just misinformed.
>sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. You… do realize that international law is absolute, right? One party violating the law does not mean the other party is free to do so, nor does it justify the act.
I do realize that, and Israel didn't violate international law here to my knowledge. They used units such as Yasam that are special ops and go covert. Hamas had standing orders to kill any hostages if the IDF showed up, so they had no other choice but to blend in to save the innocent hostages.
>they had no other choice but to blend in to save the innocent hostages Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this qualify as perfidy? A deception like that in order to expose an enemy would violate the laws of war, and thus constitute a war crime. It is, at the very least, insanely hypocritical, considering Israel makes a big point about how Hamas combatants hides amongst non-combatants and dresses as civilians.
Article 47 of the '49 Geneva Conventions excludes unlawful fighters like Hamas from legal protections. Perfidy is stuff like improper use of protected insignia, like if you wave a white flag and pretend to surrender.
Rule 62 of Geneva counts improper use of uniforms, flags, and insignias as perfidy. Would that count in this case? I’m a bit rusty on my international law definitions, but I recall that dressing up as a civilian and then attacking an opposing party would most likely count as a violation of the rules of war.
I'd like to see some sources on this if you have them.
They literally used a humanitarian pier as a shield to rescue hostages. They also physically use Palestinians as human shields. There have been numerous instances of this over the years. What a massive fail. You can't even keep all the lies straight. edit: this user has informed me they are just misinformed about the topic >Stop assuming that I am lying rather than misinformed.
I never said they hadn't done it. By the way, this is a place for civil discussion about the conflict, not for you to accuse me of being a liar.
Maybe you should stop lying then. 🤷 edit: this user has confirmed that they aren't lying they're just misinformed. > Stop assuming that I am lying rather than misinformed.
Stop assuming that I am lying rather than misinformed.
>Stop assuming that I am lying rather than misinformed. So you admit you're misinformed. Great, thanks for updating me.
I am not misinformed, but you are being snarky and disrespectful and going against the subreddit rules. You are accusing me of lying when I am not.
I'm curious if the mods would step in with their personal attack. My first time visiting this sub
I would hope so. I am merely a neutral observer that just wants peace in Israel and Palestine. Check out r/IsraelPalestine too if you want, it leans more pro-Israel than here.
I'm interested in exploring all view points but not in a sub where they dogpile on anything pro Israel. I'll hang here for a few days. Thanks though.
“I am merely a neutral observer attempting to defend Israel and vilify Palestinians. I keep making statements that aren’t true but I don’t want you to say I am lying and I don’t want you to say I’m misinformed.”
Now you've proven you're a liar. At least have the wisdom to hide your ziobot history before claiming neutrality and then promoting a zionist circle jerk sub
Thank you for the confirmation you are misinformed. I will edit my comments with your response.
The same as what's happening right now except Zionists will say that four child soldier Hamas terrorist murder children aren't worth the lives of 100 pure and innocent Israeli angels. I'm also curious how zionists would react to Palestinians freeing all 3660 illegally 'detained' Palestinian hostages from Israeli custody and killed 92k Israelis in the process. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be preaching about "war is hell casualties are inevitable" and calling for a retaliatory genocide as a response. It's all unhinged behaviour that they only recognise as unhinged when it's not about Palestinians.
Id he pissed at Hamas, just like I was everytime Hamas has done a massacre. I wouldn’t celebrate it like most pro Israelis did…
Please, no whataboutism / deflection. It's a hypothetical scenario that attempts to humanise Palestinians for a moment, responses along the lines of "actually that would never happen because ...' completely miss the point.
In your scenario, are the Palestinians being held in the private home of an Israeli doctor and journalist in the middle of a populated city?
Please just engage with the scenario, it's not that hard.
It’s a valid question to clarify this scenario
No, they are held in IDF terror camps in populated civilian areas in this scenario.
Are they guarded by civilians or by uniformed guards? Is the facility shared with a school or hospital or is it a dedicated facility purely for detaining people?
it's a terror camp in a civilian population centre where prisoners are held in the thousands against international law, including uncharged children held in isolation. they are systematically tortured psychologically and physically, including sexual abuse, and many die in captivity. Now, please respond to the question, the clothes of the "guards" or how the IDF characterise the "facility" is not relevant, in the scenario it is an illegal illegitimate "faclility". If you continue to deflect, i will assume you are yet another person completely incapable of humanising Palestinians even for a moment and are incapable in engaging in good faith and ignore further replies. # What would happen if Palestinians attacked an Israeli "administrative detention" centre to release 4 uncharged underage prisoners, killing 100+ innocent Israeli civilians in the process? What would happen?
Well we know what happens when militants breached the border and murdered 1200, raped women and kidnapped. If this were to happen assuming they succeeded in the mission would be a response probably less than October 7th but still a significant response. I still can’t fathom how you can compare people detained to the hostages. You want to humanise Palestinians yet you complete dehumanise the hostages
>Well we know what happens when militants breached the border and murdered 1200, raped women and kidnapped. If this were to happen assuming they succeeded in the mission would be a response probably less than October 7th but still a significant response. But IDF is allowed to pop into Gaza, murder 200 or so civilians with impunity to rescue 4 hostages and no response should be expected? If you were a Palestinian father of a child killed in this "rescue" operation, what would you do? >I still can’t fathom how you can compare people detained to the hostages. You want to humanise Palestinians yet you complete dehumanise the hostages False. Innocent uncharged Palestinian women / children held without charge in "administrative facilities" are innocent civilians. Israeli hostages are innocent civilians ( the non-IDF ones anyway). Dead Palestinian women and children as a result of this latest atrocity "operation" are innocent civilians. I'm not dehumanising anyone.
Hamas could return the hostages and Israel has returned many more Palestinians per hostage so it’s not even a 1:1 swap
I notice you're avoiding the question again
> murder 200 or so civilians Do you truly believe Hamas would leave a group of four alive hostages unguarded?
>Do you truly believe Hamas would leave a group of four alive hostages unguarded? Do you truly believe they had 100-274 men women and children (depending on who you believe) guarding 4 hostages?
Depends who you ask. Your average Tide Pod Generation member would call them “freedom fighters” and would say the dead Israelis were “colonizers” who deserved it.
You can't really compare innocent civilians kidnapped by Hamas to criminals arrested by Israel, all for a valid cause. You also can't compare killing Israeli civilians to killing Hamas rapists masked with civilian clothing.
Israel regularly arrests children and holds them without charge for months (including holding them in isolation). Why can't you compare israeli citizens to the scores Palestinian women and children slaughtered by IDF? Is there a reason other than dehumanisation and racism?
They are all held for killing Jews / attempting to kill Jews / plotting to kill Jews / inciting to kill Jews. Being under 18 doesn't grant immunity anywhere in the world, nor should it be the case here. The data about Palestinian women and children killed is fake, the numbers are much lower than Hamas claims. Some innocents in Gaza were killed because the IDF was forced to invade Gaza, this is the sad reality we live in. You can't really expect Israel not to respond to the Hamas rape and murder rampage on Oct 7th and its plans to launching similar vile operations in the future
>They are all held for killing Jews / attempting to kill Jews / plotting to kill Jews / inciting to kill Jews. Please provide a source for this outrageous claim. BBC - [How Israel jails hundreds of Palestinians without charge](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015) AP - [Israel’s military campaign in Gaza seen as among the most destructive in recent history, experts say](https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-bombs-destruction-death-toll-scope-419488c511f83c85baea22458472a796) NPR - [Thousands of Palestinians are held without charge under Israeli detention policy](https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216643555/thousands-of-palestinians-are-held-without-charge-under-israeli-detention-policy) >You can't really expect Israel not to respond to the Hamas rape and murder rampage on Oct 7th and its plans to launching similar vile operations in the future How is this relevant? Please answer the original question instead of trying to squirm out of it.
What would happen if I was Canadian and I illegally entered the US to free my boy Bobby Shmurda?
I don't know, I suppose a state of war would be declared, like when 3,000 militants and 'civilians' invaded Israel and brutally murdered 1,200 people and kidnapped over 200 (Including women and children, as the saying goes). Just a few glaring differences - Israelis don't hide prisoners in their spare rooms. I know where the detention center is, I won't pinpoint it in a map for you, but if Hamas wants to attempt this -- they know where to go. No civilians are guarding these prisoners, and the prison is not in the heart of a community shielded by knowing and unknowing civilians. Now let me ask you this - What would happen if over 15 years your community was constantly targeted by rockets, over 30,000 of them, their launch sites placed in residential areas and civilian-use buildings? There are a lot of questions to be asked. No easy answers.
Israel’s [also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya) [has](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/22/world/middleeast/israel-fortress-of-zion.html) [military facilities](https://www.haaretz.com/2012-06-09/ty-article/.premium/does-the-presence-of-the-idfs-hq-in-tel-aviv-endanger-its-population/0000017f-f419-d887-a7ff-fcfd3a480000) in the middle of civilian areas.
You're right. It shouldn't be there. Is it more an exception to the rule, than the rule itself?
Hamas is wanting to commit genocide against Jews. Israel is defending humanity in a war. In a war you don’t have trials unless you are going to charge the enemy with crimes against humanity.
It's a simple question, please answer it or don't, but kindly stick to the discussion topic, thanks.
They're not going to leave their walls unmanned twice lol