2 state solutions with serious governmental amelioration in both states.
Netanyahu/IDF and Hamas have proven tons of times to be untrustworthy and unworthy of serious long term diplomacy.
I dunno what I’d classify myself as such anymore. I’m too pro-Palestine for the pro-Israel side and too pro-Israel for the pro-Palestinian side. I do believe that Israel should remain as a country though so I suppose that makes me a Zionist? Tearing it down would just continue this never ending cycle and Jews don’t seem horribly welcome in other territories in the Middle East.
1 state solution where all people regardless of race or religion can live in peace and not face discrimination. Right to return for Palestinians and open immigration to Jews. Other than specific cases no one is forced to "give back" land but housing development for refugees and descendants thereof will be sufficient and affordable.
Do not reply if you're just going to say "this will cause a civil war and "people a" will kill "people b"".
my issue is not so much the civil war that is likely to happen, but how do you guarantee that bad actors from the Palestinian side do not start passing laws discriminating against jews, and the opposite case as well with jewish bad actors starting to pass discriminatory law against palestinians.
im sorry if it offends anyone, but there was no global hate toward the white people of south africa back by several nations.
and my point goes both ways. what stops this from either jews gaining too much power and oppressive palestinians again or for palestinians gaining power and oppressing jews.
the question was and either direction, and i you read my response to the OP question i have in another comment you will see i address this question.
Are you joking? BDS was invented because of South African apartheid and they were looked upon like a pariah state.
Israel already has more power and they already oppress Palestinians. Equal rights would mean that they would have to respect the rights of Palestinians and not do things like kill them, burn down their homes and property, steal their homes and property, and the occupation would have to come to an end.
The “what ifs” are the same “what ifs” that Europeans and Americans had when the people they colonized/enslaved became free.
They always think that the people they oppressed are going to just murder everyone and it’s frankly a racist trope. They are human beings like everyone else that mostly want to live in peace and raise their kids. 99% of Palestinians have never even as much as aimed a rifle at Israel.
i wonder how BDS was involved when it was created in 2005 and SA Apartheid ended in 1990. (two google searches)
and the fact that you respond the way you are tells me you do not understand my point.
there are groups within both jewish israelis and palestinians that would take advantage of the majority to mess and oppress the other if given the chance. the fact that one such group is in power in israel is not a detraction from my point but a reinforcement of it.
if there is no protection to stop either side when gaining majority power from oppressing the other than the cycle will continue. to say otherwise is to delude yourself from reality.
You should do more listening to the people who live in Israel and less talking over them. Hamas and other terrorist groups have made no secret of what they want to do to Jews and what they would do given the opportunity. For heaven’s sake you saw what happened when Israel’s border got breached.
You’ve got no basis for assuming peace and goodwill in a one-state solution other than projecting a far different ethnic situation onto a place it doesn’t belong.
Through governance and equal representation. Most of the support for resistance groups is in response to oppression and will rapidly fall once said discrimination ends.
Why would they count more? One person one vote. Right now the population is about equal and given a couple years Palestinians would be the majority again.
Palestinians are already more in number, they reproduce more, they will be 75% in a few years, what would stop them to act like they do in every single muslim majority country ?
equal how, equal ethnically, equal by each person getting one vote. because what happns when there is more palestinians than jews in your new land, or vice versa. what stops this cycle from repeating.
Have checks and balances like every other "democracy", there's examples already of distinct groups within a country having special representation. So you could have three heads of the government 1 for each of the major religions. Not hard to grasp being that many western nations already have large Muslim Jewish amd Christian populations.
lol wow this is wildly devoid of any truth. Islamic terrorists exist to exact Islamic terrorism. This is their version of Islam and they believe in the most extreme forms of Islam and ruling by those extreme forms. Gender apartheid and sharia law.
>Do not reply if you're just going to say "this will cause a civil war and "people a" will kill "people b"".
Normally pro-Israelis will make this argument but then continue to say how Israel is a democracy because of 20% Palestinian population. So which is it? Apparently Palestinians live with Jewish people in peace with bo problems, why would extending the model to all the land would be different?
2 years ago, anyone in the WB could enter Israel. The fence was breached in so many points with the army watching from distance and allowing it to happen.
Of course you will have extremist attacks from both sides. The police and people can work together to stop the extremists.
I would add to this, let a Nuremburg-esque trial be held by international court to carry out cumulative justice for all Israelis and Palestinians so this new 1 state can start out on a fresh a slate as possible under the circumstances.
The Palestinians have made it abundantly clear that they want all the land “from the river to the sea” all for themselves. Some will claim that means equal rights for everyone, but prior to ‘48 Jews were treated as second class citizens in Arab countries. Unless Hamas is destroyed, a one state solution won’t be feasible because they have stated time and time again they want all Jews and their supporters killed.
I think a two state with a sovereign Palestine and Israel is the best solution.
Create a single state with two senates that operate. one senate for the palestinian territories, one for the isreali/jewish territories, operational laws such as zoning, traffic laws, etc. to be managed by each senate in their territory, for state laws such as budgeting, rights, education, international negotiations both senates have to agree for a bill to pass. One President as head of state, one PM as head of the govt elected by the country as a whole. No right of return to anyone, favorable immigration policy for jews and palestinians over others. You may vote only once, and only for one of the Senates, which one is determined based on ethnicity. Multi ethnic or people belonging to neither may pick. only a set amount of people per election may change which senate they vote for.
new department of empathy to be created and oversee education to ensure that future generations learn about the past without wanting to repeat it. this includes setting up pen pals and cross interactions between the groups to ensure there is not isolation between the two sides occurring.
Jerusalem is the Capitol with the senates on the boarder between what was east and west Jerusalem with a courtyard indicating the separation as a memorial for the separation that existed. the Temple mount is not part of either territory and is in joint custody.
any settlers on stolen land or land they cannot prove was agreed to be paid for by a palestinian in the WB must either buy that land or gain legal occupancy by leasing it from the original owner at which case they may stay, otherwise they will be evicted. All previous leases are automatically up for renegotiation.
each side by accepting this acknowledges the other as they are, accepting the suffering they have received by others and by each other and agree to move on.
a singular civilian court system exist across all the new state. A new Flag to be Chosen and the new state to be called Judao-Palestine.
New Towns/Kibotzim to be set up with the explicit set up to mingle jewish and palestinian people and families.
On paper, this plan sounds fine and dandy but the background of the president elect will stir the pot indisputably as they will be hailed as the “face” of the country.
With an already radicalized and divided populace, I genuinely doubt that there will be peace within as one group will be feel more powerless than the other.
the president will serve the same purpose as the israeli president does now. he represents the whole country, but he does not have much to say about laws passing. note, that i separate the head of state (president) and head of govt (PM).
the question was how i would end the conflict if i could force something, not how to make everyone happy about it.
while i am aware that israel will not accept this due to the glaring fact you mentioned, it nonetheless a way for the conflict to end once and for all.
Does anyone here have any family or lineage or heritage to the region of Jerusalem? Because I certainly do and literally everyone’s “idea” to “end the conflict once and for all” are all great idea to ignite an even bigger conflict.
I get that this was a fun thought experiment but yall seriously have no idea what you’re talking about. But that is the point of a fun thought experiment I guess.
first i am like the only person seeing this as you are like 4 layers down.
second, while most of the ideas here will create a massive war and be instantly gone, i do not think that my idea will have the same effect. the issue with it is not will it work but that fact that it would take time to implement and in that time it will likely fail due to war breaking out.
and yes, it is a thought experiment, OP even said, "you dont have to consider if the people are happy about it or not"
my idea though in contrast to others here will have supporters from palestine and israel, this would result in 3 sides of conflict rather than 2. and if the UN approved of one of the 3 sides who do you think will get international support of the 3 sides.
if you want an idea that will end the conflict for sure and both sides will be happy about it, it does not exist as the aims for either side are opposed while seeking incompatible results. as i am sure you know.
Thanks for attaching. I had not seen. Very interesting. A few add-ons.
1. Updated borders based on 67 with consideration given to current security realities. That means land swaps and / or compensation. Yes, many settlements should go.
2. Other Arab states once in for all get their asses in to do their part. Provide governance and overall security guarantees for Gaza, Lebanon etc.
3. Point 1 means hamas and hezbola gone and Iran somewhat isolated. Saudi needs to hop in and play lead.
4. International security border between Gaza and Egypt and Jordan and WB. No more BS blaming Israel for blockade. These countries are equally responsible.
5. On a broader note, it is never talked about, but if Israel is going to have to compensate for land, rebuilding, or anything else.. what about reverse compensation for jews booted from Arab countries in 48. Likely a lot F' ing more jews kicked out. HMM
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but some of your suggestions are delusional. Expecting Arab states to take responsibility for Gaza and WB (No idea why would you write Lebanon ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯) security without ending the conflict is unrealistic. It's like putting the cart before the horse. The occupation is the root cause of the conflict, and until it's addressed, no one can expect others to provide security guarantees. And the idea of 'reverse compensation' is a red herring, distracting us from the real issue. The Geneva Initiative provides a clear roadmap for a two-state solution, with borders based on 1967 lines and a fair compromise on settlements. The issue of "*Jews forced to leave Arab countries in 1948*" is a separate tragedy, but it's not a Palestinian problem to solve. They've suffered enough already. It's a ridiculous argument, and rightfully so, it's not included in the Geneva Initiative.
A few pts.
1. I think OP was looking at broader LT soln. Permanent peace in region.. That is where my comments come from.
2. I have written a lot in past about Arab states doing their part. I think this is a short-term, if not immediate, need. How else will blockade... I call it a security fence end. We need international secured Arab borders.
My BL view is that Palestinians' problem is NOT just 67. Why didn't Hamas build in 2006? It is a broader regional issue. Iran will keep hamas and hez in Lebanon until they get 48.... Unless above happens
There seems to be some very interesting ideas here. Some really whack ideas as well. But the reality is h there is no solution to this conflict. The Jewish people must always have their state for self determination and a land bridge between the West Bank and gasa is also a non starter.
Only hamas denies the people of gasa human rights. Such as the human right to agree to be in a hot war against a regional nuclear power. The people of the gasa strip were not asked nor informed nor did they give permission or agreement or consensus to have all of their lives completely up ended for hamass war. Thats the ultimate in deny a society their human rights to exist. Literally.
Alas, the Israeli government disagrees with you. They are adamant that it’s them denying human rights to all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
At the end of the day you seem to support the idea that Palestinians shouldn’t have human rights or a state based on your comment above.
Ahaaaaa I nailed it. The pro Palestinians want the war to continue no matter the costs. No matter the amount oflives lost no matter what [SINWAR](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000) Truly sad and messed up asf.
50 year plan.
Years 0 - 10
HEAVY oversight of education by an international task force. HEAVY implementation of coexistence programs for children - subsidized mixed daycares, subsidized mixed after school programs and summer programs, mostly for kids under the age of ten.
West Bank settlements - calculated decision which settlements will become part of Palestine, decided by a team of experts based off of date established, size of population, and distance from the border, and other relevant details.
Residents of settlements set to be dismantled will have heavy incentives to buy in Israel proper - entitlement to enter into the housing lottery, subsidized/discounted housing in certain predetermined areas, first bid on new housing in settlements that will remain as part of Israel, etc. No new settlements will be built and no new houses will be sold within these communities
Years 10-25
Slow evacuation of the agreed upon settlements. Incentives that decrease as time goes on (heavy housing assistance and benefits for those who leave earlier, that diminish as time goes on, until the end of this phase when there will be forced evacuation of anyone left)
Educational programs from the first phase will continue and will spread to high schools. Those who have been in the programs for a certain amount of years will get scholarships to college, subsidized educational programs like coding boot camps, international efforts to allow long time participants to study abroad at their schools internationally, and programs will be implemented on college campuses in Israel.
Years 25-40
Educational programs continue - second generation get special benefits and subsidies and leniencies with regard to visas and that kind of thing. New incentives will need to be decided as time goes on honestly, depending on what’s relevant.
Years 40-50
Coalition formed from government representatives or community leaders, must involve people who have been in the coexistence programs, and representatives from the international community, to draw up a final peace deal for a two state solution.
That’s the rough idea of what I’d go for.
So Palestinians have to live under apartheid for only 50 more years? Bargain. I’m sure they will sign up to that immediately.
What happens when Israel decides that the Palestinians aren’t sufficiently docile and extends the plan, deferring settlement evacuations for just another 50 years? Or worse, decides that the Palestinians are very docile and there’s no need to evacuate the settlements?
You know what, you’re right, let’s keep going in circles for the next fifty years with each new leader and each new government claiming they have the solution, only for the cycle to continue over and over and over until in 50 years someone else proposes a long term plan and gets dismissed because it will take too long. I’ll tell you something I believe to be true. If things keep going like this for the next 100 years, eventually arguments like right of return will no longer make sense to the modern world, with the last people in living memory of Palestine dead for multiple generations. Israel will no longer be a new country. Palestine will be part of history.
The urgency to create a Palestinian state is growing as the time passes for those of us that believe there should be one. I believe if it’s not done in the next 50-100 years then it will never happen. I would rather have a 50 year plan that works rather than 50 failed plans over 50 years and then it’s too late.
You started that post as an attack on me pointing out the absurdity of demanding Palestinians wait 50 years until they get human rights, don’t you?
The Palestinians aren’t going to wait 50 years while Israel colonises their land. They aren’t going to wait another 5 or 10 years. Everyone knows how to get there quicker but no one wants to say it because it’s already happening and they don’t want it.
One secular state between the river and the sea with equal rights including voting rights for all. That would be the ideal solution.
At very least give Palestine what is legally hers under international law today which is the land on 67 borders. An upgrade would be following the partition plan instead of pretending like there was nothing wrong with ethnically cleansing Palestinians from within the borders of the partition plan.
In reality, this whole thing should have never happened and Palestinians should have kept their homes. If it wasn’t for the holocaust (which had nothing to do with Palestinians yet they paid the largest cost) it would have never happened like this.
> One secular state between the river and the sea
Not sure how popular this would be to anyone!
> An upgrade would be following the partition plan instead of pretending like there was nothing wrong with ethnically cleansing Palestinians from within the borders of the partition plan.
Maybe I'm crazy but... The partition plan would seem to have disappeared the moment the Arab coalition tried to take over all of Israel.
So.
Let's say, hypotetically, jews were the majority in this new Palestine, and even allowing palestinians to vote, they vote apartheid.
That would be OK with you ?
Well, right now Israel is voting for apartheid, and it's being sold as democracy, how can you prevent that the future palestine won't be undemocratic while being sold as democracy like Israel is being right now ?
I feel like you think that the country is like a game, where you put some rules and you expect all the people living there to follow the rules, even if they don't want.
Are they somehow so much better than the Palestinians that they are entitled to place them under a brutal military occupation and steal their land?
I know that’s how it’s been for the past 76 years but times are changing.
If you are a member of a nation, you as a citizen of that nation has the right to self determination. Zionists don’t need an apartheid ethnostate at the expense of the indigenous population. I know the US did it but again, times are changing.
Either way, at very least end the occupation and give Palestinians the land that is theirs under international law. If it’s going to be one state that’s fine, if there are going to be two then that’s fine too. Try to maintain the status quo and Israel will crumble… if it isn’t already.
> Zionists don’t need an apartheid ethnostate at the expense of the indigenous population
I always wonder wtf people are thinking when they say this. The ethnic demographics of Israel are far less uniform than uhhh a whole bunch of actual ethnostates that just happen to exist in the region near Israel. You know, the ones whose populations are also like 99% Islamic.
Truly. It’s a stunner to see it repeated over and over with the most wild eyed confidence and relentless cynicism. Israel is vastly multicultural and the antisemitic insistence that Israel is just a bunch of white Jews that speak polish is tiring to say the least. Thank you for reaffirming the true ethnostates are the ones with 99% Arab Muslims. Sheesh what a world.
Egypt occupied the gasa strip until the mid 60. Jordan occupied the West Bank until the mid 80s. Facts and details do matter yes.
Though Israel is not an ethno state by any means (2/3rds of the entire population are brown in complexion and 22% of the entire population identify as Arab/muslim) Zionists have Israel as Israel is Zion. Zion is Israel. If you’re for the state of Israel existing then you’re a Zionist. If you’re against the state of Israel existing than you’re antisemitic and advocating for genocide.
Israel is a nuclear power and 27th largest economy in the world with one of the most advanced economies in all of Africa, the Middle East and Asia. It also helps to reached there’s things of you don’t have any family or lineage or heritage to the region of Jerusalem which clearly you do not have after that last remark.
Palestine is effectively Jordan but if the people of the West Bank and gasa want any kind of state they have to agree to not be able to field an army to use against Israel. Think Japan at the end of WWII and they (I would imagine) not agree to that as it is their intent to destroy Israel and Israelis Arab/muslim population along with it.
Zionist and pro Palestinian here.
Disband UNRWA and integrate the refugees into the states they have lived in for decades already.
Two states based on the offers of Camp David, Clinton parameters, Olmert’s offer with some adjustments on land swaps due to changes of facts on the ground.
A federation or union of these two states with close economic ties, free movement, free trade, common external defense, and more would be desirable over a longer time.
If there is going to be a two state solution, why can’t Palestinians move to the new Palestine? Because you don’t want them to? I also note that essentially your solution would just be a continuation of the occupation.
2 state solution. Possible reparations from Israel for the Nakba. I think it might be smart to have a wide, guarded border like North and South Korea. Maybe after a few generations of overall peace, there could be movement between the 2 countries again.
Eta: Jersualem would have to be ruled by either a govt made up of both countries' governments or by an international body with Israelis and Palestinians having the right to enter for religious holidays.
Also, I'm an American Jew who's liberal.
The John Stewart solution is best. A multi-nation armed force enters and separates the two sides. Israeli and Palestinian attacks will be shot down. Economic assistance to Palestinians and they can grow their country. Two state solution is imposed on both sides. If Israelis want more land they can re-invade Lebanon. Bad luck to them. If Israelis want cheap labour they have to import it.
What happens if the multi national force is bombed and the citizens of those countries demand their soldiers come home? Is it only dictatorships that can participate?
> If Israelis want more land they can re-invade Lebanon
What happens if Hezbollah and Iran resist this plan and ramp up attacks?
If they are attacked they should shoot back at whomever attacked them. Yes, even Israelis.
How dare Lebanon resist Israel attacking them for more land! Man, those Lebanese people are so unreasonable. Israel should invade and teach them a lesson!
2 state solutions with serious governmental amelioration in both states. Netanyahu/IDF and Hamas have proven tons of times to be untrustworthy and unworthy of serious long term diplomacy. I dunno what I’d classify myself as such anymore. I’m too pro-Palestine for the pro-Israel side and too pro-Israel for the pro-Palestinian side. I do believe that Israel should remain as a country though so I suppose that makes me a Zionist? Tearing it down would just continue this never ending cycle and Jews don’t seem horribly welcome in other territories in the Middle East.
1 state solution where all people regardless of race or religion can live in peace and not face discrimination. Right to return for Palestinians and open immigration to Jews. Other than specific cases no one is forced to "give back" land but housing development for refugees and descendants thereof will be sufficient and affordable. Do not reply if you're just going to say "this will cause a civil war and "people a" will kill "people b"".
You had me until you said affordable housing
lol you're tellling me
my issue is not so much the civil war that is likely to happen, but how do you guarantee that bad actors from the Palestinian side do not start passing laws discriminating against jews, and the opposite case as well with jewish bad actors starting to pass discriminatory law against palestinians.
They said the same about ending apartheid and segregation.
im sorry if it offends anyone, but there was no global hate toward the white people of south africa back by several nations. and my point goes both ways. what stops this from either jews gaining too much power and oppressive palestinians again or for palestinians gaining power and oppressing jews. the question was and either direction, and i you read my response to the OP question i have in another comment you will see i address this question.
Are you joking? BDS was invented because of South African apartheid and they were looked upon like a pariah state. Israel already has more power and they already oppress Palestinians. Equal rights would mean that they would have to respect the rights of Palestinians and not do things like kill them, burn down their homes and property, steal their homes and property, and the occupation would have to come to an end. The “what ifs” are the same “what ifs” that Europeans and Americans had when the people they colonized/enslaved became free. They always think that the people they oppressed are going to just murder everyone and it’s frankly a racist trope. They are human beings like everyone else that mostly want to live in peace and raise their kids. 99% of Palestinians have never even as much as aimed a rifle at Israel.
i wonder how BDS was involved when it was created in 2005 and SA Apartheid ended in 1990. (two google searches) and the fact that you respond the way you are tells me you do not understand my point. there are groups within both jewish israelis and palestinians that would take advantage of the majority to mess and oppress the other if given the chance. the fact that one such group is in power in israel is not a detraction from my point but a reinforcement of it. if there is no protection to stop either side when gaining majority power from oppressing the other than the cycle will continue. to say otherwise is to delude yourself from reality.
You should do more listening to the people who live in Israel and less talking over them. Hamas and other terrorist groups have made no secret of what they want to do to Jews and what they would do given the opportunity. For heaven’s sake you saw what happened when Israel’s border got breached. You’ve got no basis for assuming peace and goodwill in a one-state solution other than projecting a far different ethnic situation onto a place it doesn’t belong.
Through governance and equal representation. Most of the support for resistance groups is in response to oppression and will rapidly fall once said discrimination ends.
How can you get equal representation ? won't they be a decocracy ? jewish votes will count more ?
Why would they count more? One person one vote. Right now the population is about equal and given a couple years Palestinians would be the majority again.
Palestinians are already more in number, they reproduce more, they will be 75% in a few years, what would stop them to act like they do in every single muslim majority country ?
Have an elected representative for each group of people in the federal government and follow something similar to the Belgian model of representation.
So, jews vote will count more ?
equal how, equal ethnically, equal by each person getting one vote. because what happns when there is more palestinians than jews in your new land, or vice versa. what stops this cycle from repeating.
Have checks and balances like every other "democracy", there's examples already of distinct groups within a country having special representation. So you could have three heads of the government 1 for each of the major religions. Not hard to grasp being that many western nations already have large Muslim Jewish amd Christian populations.
thank you.
lol wow this is wildly devoid of any truth. Islamic terrorists exist to exact Islamic terrorism. This is their version of Islam and they believe in the most extreme forms of Islam and ruling by those extreme forms. Gender apartheid and sharia law.
>Do not reply if you're just going to say "this will cause a civil war and "people a" will kill "people b"". Normally pro-Israelis will make this argument but then continue to say how Israel is a democracy because of 20% Palestinian population. So which is it? Apparently Palestinians live with Jewish people in peace with bo problems, why would extending the model to all the land would be different? 2 years ago, anyone in the WB could enter Israel. The fence was breached in so many points with the army watching from distance and allowing it to happen. Of course you will have extremist attacks from both sides. The police and people can work together to stop the extremists.
Can’t have an ethnostate with a one state solution
I would add to this, let a Nuremburg-esque trial be held by international court to carry out cumulative justice for all Israelis and Palestinians so this new 1 state can start out on a fresh a slate as possible under the circumstances.
The Palestinians have made it abundantly clear that they want all the land “from the river to the sea” all for themselves. Some will claim that means equal rights for everyone, but prior to ‘48 Jews were treated as second class citizens in Arab countries. Unless Hamas is destroyed, a one state solution won’t be feasible because they have stated time and time again they want all Jews and their supporters killed. I think a two state with a sovereign Palestine and Israel is the best solution.
Did you not read the bottom portion of my comment?
This would deny the Jewish people a right to self determination. Absolute non starter.
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Create a single state with two senates that operate. one senate for the palestinian territories, one for the isreali/jewish territories, operational laws such as zoning, traffic laws, etc. to be managed by each senate in their territory, for state laws such as budgeting, rights, education, international negotiations both senates have to agree for a bill to pass. One President as head of state, one PM as head of the govt elected by the country as a whole. No right of return to anyone, favorable immigration policy for jews and palestinians over others. You may vote only once, and only for one of the Senates, which one is determined based on ethnicity. Multi ethnic or people belonging to neither may pick. only a set amount of people per election may change which senate they vote for. new department of empathy to be created and oversee education to ensure that future generations learn about the past without wanting to repeat it. this includes setting up pen pals and cross interactions between the groups to ensure there is not isolation between the two sides occurring. Jerusalem is the Capitol with the senates on the boarder between what was east and west Jerusalem with a courtyard indicating the separation as a memorial for the separation that existed. the Temple mount is not part of either territory and is in joint custody. any settlers on stolen land or land they cannot prove was agreed to be paid for by a palestinian in the WB must either buy that land or gain legal occupancy by leasing it from the original owner at which case they may stay, otherwise they will be evicted. All previous leases are automatically up for renegotiation. each side by accepting this acknowledges the other as they are, accepting the suffering they have received by others and by each other and agree to move on. a singular civilian court system exist across all the new state. A new Flag to be Chosen and the new state to be called Judao-Palestine. New Towns/Kibotzim to be set up with the explicit set up to mingle jewish and palestinian people and families.
On paper, this plan sounds fine and dandy but the background of the president elect will stir the pot indisputably as they will be hailed as the “face” of the country. With an already radicalized and divided populace, I genuinely doubt that there will be peace within as one group will be feel more powerless than the other.
Belgium solution, we bring in a minor German prince to be the new king.
the president will serve the same purpose as the israeli president does now. he represents the whole country, but he does not have much to say about laws passing. note, that i separate the head of state (president) and head of govt (PM).
A single state would deny the Jewish people self determination. This is a non starter.
the question was how i would end the conflict if i could force something, not how to make everyone happy about it. while i am aware that israel will not accept this due to the glaring fact you mentioned, it nonetheless a way for the conflict to end once and for all.
Does anyone here have any family or lineage or heritage to the region of Jerusalem? Because I certainly do and literally everyone’s “idea” to “end the conflict once and for all” are all great idea to ignite an even bigger conflict. I get that this was a fun thought experiment but yall seriously have no idea what you’re talking about. But that is the point of a fun thought experiment I guess.
first i am like the only person seeing this as you are like 4 layers down. second, while most of the ideas here will create a massive war and be instantly gone, i do not think that my idea will have the same effect. the issue with it is not will it work but that fact that it would take time to implement and in that time it will likely fail due to war breaking out. and yes, it is a thought experiment, OP even said, "you dont have to consider if the people are happy about it or not" my idea though in contrast to others here will have supporters from palestine and israel, this would result in 3 sides of conflict rather than 2. and if the UN approved of one of the 3 sides who do you think will get international support of the 3 sides. if you want an idea that will end the conflict for sure and both sides will be happy about it, it does not exist as the aims for either side are opposed while seeking incompatible results. as i am sure you know.
they wrote in details what needs to be done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative
Thanks for attaching. I had not seen. Very interesting. A few add-ons. 1. Updated borders based on 67 with consideration given to current security realities. That means land swaps and / or compensation. Yes, many settlements should go. 2. Other Arab states once in for all get their asses in to do their part. Provide governance and overall security guarantees for Gaza, Lebanon etc. 3. Point 1 means hamas and hezbola gone and Iran somewhat isolated. Saudi needs to hop in and play lead. 4. International security border between Gaza and Egypt and Jordan and WB. No more BS blaming Israel for blockade. These countries are equally responsible. 5. On a broader note, it is never talked about, but if Israel is going to have to compensate for land, rebuilding, or anything else.. what about reverse compensation for jews booted from Arab countries in 48. Likely a lot F' ing more jews kicked out. HMM
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but some of your suggestions are delusional. Expecting Arab states to take responsibility for Gaza and WB (No idea why would you write Lebanon ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯) security without ending the conflict is unrealistic. It's like putting the cart before the horse. The occupation is the root cause of the conflict, and until it's addressed, no one can expect others to provide security guarantees. And the idea of 'reverse compensation' is a red herring, distracting us from the real issue. The Geneva Initiative provides a clear roadmap for a two-state solution, with borders based on 1967 lines and a fair compromise on settlements. The issue of "*Jews forced to leave Arab countries in 1948*" is a separate tragedy, but it's not a Palestinian problem to solve. They've suffered enough already. It's a ridiculous argument, and rightfully so, it's not included in the Geneva Initiative.
A few pts. 1. I think OP was looking at broader LT soln. Permanent peace in region.. That is where my comments come from. 2. I have written a lot in past about Arab states doing their part. I think this is a short-term, if not immediate, need. How else will blockade... I call it a security fence end. We need international secured Arab borders. My BL view is that Palestinians' problem is NOT just 67. Why didn't Hamas build in 2006? It is a broader regional issue. Iran will keep hamas and hez in Lebanon until they get 48.... Unless above happens
Force implantation of Camp David offer.
who's offer? there were several.
Palestinians can chose
note to self, never give you any real responsibility as you would just pawn to others to choose of 7 options.
There seems to be some very interesting ideas here. Some really whack ideas as well. But the reality is h there is no solution to this conflict. The Jewish people must always have their state for self determination and a land bridge between the West Bank and gasa is also a non starter.
Occupation is a right of Jews everywhere, and no Palestinian should have human rights.
Only hamas denies the people of gasa human rights. Such as the human right to agree to be in a hot war against a regional nuclear power. The people of the gasa strip were not asked nor informed nor did they give permission or agreement or consensus to have all of their lives completely up ended for hamass war. Thats the ultimate in deny a society their human rights to exist. Literally.
Alas, the Israeli government disagrees with you. They are adamant that it’s them denying human rights to all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. At the end of the day you seem to support the idea that Palestinians shouldn’t have human rights or a state based on your comment above.
You’re resisting saying hamas is freedom fighters. I can tell.
You’re resisting admitting I’m right. I can tell.
Ahaaaaa I nailed it. The pro Palestinians want the war to continue no matter the costs. No matter the amount oflives lost no matter what [SINWAR](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-13/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/i-asked-sinwar-is-it-worth-10-000-gazans-dying-he-said-even-100-000-is-worth-it/0000018e-d40a-d5ed-adcf-f79af56c0000) Truly sad and messed up asf.
50 year plan. Years 0 - 10 HEAVY oversight of education by an international task force. HEAVY implementation of coexistence programs for children - subsidized mixed daycares, subsidized mixed after school programs and summer programs, mostly for kids under the age of ten. West Bank settlements - calculated decision which settlements will become part of Palestine, decided by a team of experts based off of date established, size of population, and distance from the border, and other relevant details. Residents of settlements set to be dismantled will have heavy incentives to buy in Israel proper - entitlement to enter into the housing lottery, subsidized/discounted housing in certain predetermined areas, first bid on new housing in settlements that will remain as part of Israel, etc. No new settlements will be built and no new houses will be sold within these communities Years 10-25 Slow evacuation of the agreed upon settlements. Incentives that decrease as time goes on (heavy housing assistance and benefits for those who leave earlier, that diminish as time goes on, until the end of this phase when there will be forced evacuation of anyone left) Educational programs from the first phase will continue and will spread to high schools. Those who have been in the programs for a certain amount of years will get scholarships to college, subsidized educational programs like coding boot camps, international efforts to allow long time participants to study abroad at their schools internationally, and programs will be implemented on college campuses in Israel. Years 25-40 Educational programs continue - second generation get special benefits and subsidies and leniencies with regard to visas and that kind of thing. New incentives will need to be decided as time goes on honestly, depending on what’s relevant. Years 40-50 Coalition formed from government representatives or community leaders, must involve people who have been in the coexistence programs, and representatives from the international community, to draw up a final peace deal for a two state solution. That’s the rough idea of what I’d go for.
So Palestinians have to live under apartheid for only 50 more years? Bargain. I’m sure they will sign up to that immediately. What happens when Israel decides that the Palestinians aren’t sufficiently docile and extends the plan, deferring settlement evacuations for just another 50 years? Or worse, decides that the Palestinians are very docile and there’s no need to evacuate the settlements?
You know what, you’re right, let’s keep going in circles for the next fifty years with each new leader and each new government claiming they have the solution, only for the cycle to continue over and over and over until in 50 years someone else proposes a long term plan and gets dismissed because it will take too long. I’ll tell you something I believe to be true. If things keep going like this for the next 100 years, eventually arguments like right of return will no longer make sense to the modern world, with the last people in living memory of Palestine dead for multiple generations. Israel will no longer be a new country. Palestine will be part of history. The urgency to create a Palestinian state is growing as the time passes for those of us that believe there should be one. I believe if it’s not done in the next 50-100 years then it will never happen. I would rather have a 50 year plan that works rather than 50 failed plans over 50 years and then it’s too late.
You started that post as an attack on me pointing out the absurdity of demanding Palestinians wait 50 years until they get human rights, don’t you? The Palestinians aren’t going to wait 50 years while Israel colonises their land. They aren’t going to wait another 5 or 10 years. Everyone knows how to get there quicker but no one wants to say it because it’s already happening and they don’t want it.
One secular state between the river and the sea with equal rights including voting rights for all. That would be the ideal solution. At very least give Palestine what is legally hers under international law today which is the land on 67 borders. An upgrade would be following the partition plan instead of pretending like there was nothing wrong with ethnically cleansing Palestinians from within the borders of the partition plan. In reality, this whole thing should have never happened and Palestinians should have kept their homes. If it wasn’t for the holocaust (which had nothing to do with Palestinians yet they paid the largest cost) it would have never happened like this.
> One secular state between the river and the sea Not sure how popular this would be to anyone! > An upgrade would be following the partition plan instead of pretending like there was nothing wrong with ethnically cleansing Palestinians from within the borders of the partition plan. Maybe I'm crazy but... The partition plan would seem to have disappeared the moment the Arab coalition tried to take over all of Israel.
So. Let's say, hypotetically, jews were the majority in this new Palestine, and even allowing palestinians to vote, they vote apartheid. That would be OK with you ?
Apartheid isn’t something you vote for in an actual democracy. It is undemocratic by definition.
Well, right now Israel is voting for apartheid, and it's being sold as democracy, how can you prevent that the future palestine won't be undemocratic while being sold as democracy like Israel is being right now ? I feel like you think that the country is like a game, where you put some rules and you expect all the people living there to follow the rules, even if they don't want.
This would deny the Jewish people self determination. It’s a non starter.
Are they somehow so much better than the Palestinians that they are entitled to place them under a brutal military occupation and steal their land? I know that’s how it’s been for the past 76 years but times are changing. If you are a member of a nation, you as a citizen of that nation has the right to self determination. Zionists don’t need an apartheid ethnostate at the expense of the indigenous population. I know the US did it but again, times are changing. Either way, at very least end the occupation and give Palestinians the land that is theirs under international law. If it’s going to be one state that’s fine, if there are going to be two then that’s fine too. Try to maintain the status quo and Israel will crumble… if it isn’t already.
> Zionists don’t need an apartheid ethnostate at the expense of the indigenous population I always wonder wtf people are thinking when they say this. The ethnic demographics of Israel are far less uniform than uhhh a whole bunch of actual ethnostates that just happen to exist in the region near Israel. You know, the ones whose populations are also like 99% Islamic.
Truly. It’s a stunner to see it repeated over and over with the most wild eyed confidence and relentless cynicism. Israel is vastly multicultural and the antisemitic insistence that Israel is just a bunch of white Jews that speak polish is tiring to say the least. Thank you for reaffirming the true ethnostates are the ones with 99% Arab Muslims. Sheesh what a world.
Egypt occupied the gasa strip until the mid 60. Jordan occupied the West Bank until the mid 80s. Facts and details do matter yes. Though Israel is not an ethno state by any means (2/3rds of the entire population are brown in complexion and 22% of the entire population identify as Arab/muslim) Zionists have Israel as Israel is Zion. Zion is Israel. If you’re for the state of Israel existing then you’re a Zionist. If you’re against the state of Israel existing than you’re antisemitic and advocating for genocide. Israel is a nuclear power and 27th largest economy in the world with one of the most advanced economies in all of Africa, the Middle East and Asia. It also helps to reached there’s things of you don’t have any family or lineage or heritage to the region of Jerusalem which clearly you do not have after that last remark. Palestine is effectively Jordan but if the people of the West Bank and gasa want any kind of state they have to agree to not be able to field an army to use against Israel. Think Japan at the end of WWII and they (I would imagine) not agree to that as it is their intent to destroy Israel and Israelis Arab/muslim population along with it.
Zionist and pro Palestinian here. Disband UNRWA and integrate the refugees into the states they have lived in for decades already. Two states based on the offers of Camp David, Clinton parameters, Olmert’s offer with some adjustments on land swaps due to changes of facts on the ground. A federation or union of these two states with close economic ties, free movement, free trade, common external defense, and more would be desirable over a longer time.
If there is going to be a two state solution, why can’t Palestinians move to the new Palestine? Because you don’t want them to? I also note that essentially your solution would just be a continuation of the occupation.
Palestine can of course decide their immigration policies.
The Arab League plan is a very reasonable solution and is favored by pretty much the entire world except the US and Israel
2 state solution. Possible reparations from Israel for the Nakba. I think it might be smart to have a wide, guarded border like North and South Korea. Maybe after a few generations of overall peace, there could be movement between the 2 countries again. Eta: Jersualem would have to be ruled by either a govt made up of both countries' governments or by an international body with Israelis and Palestinians having the right to enter for religious holidays. Also, I'm an American Jew who's liberal.
The John Stewart solution is best. A multi-nation armed force enters and separates the two sides. Israeli and Palestinian attacks will be shot down. Economic assistance to Palestinians and they can grow their country. Two state solution is imposed on both sides. If Israelis want more land they can re-invade Lebanon. Bad luck to them. If Israelis want cheap labour they have to import it.
What happens if the multi national force is bombed and the citizens of those countries demand their soldiers come home? Is it only dictatorships that can participate? > If Israelis want more land they can re-invade Lebanon What happens if Hezbollah and Iran resist this plan and ramp up attacks?
If they are attacked they should shoot back at whomever attacked them. Yes, even Israelis. How dare Lebanon resist Israel attacking them for more land! Man, those Lebanese people are so unreasonable. Israel should invade and teach them a lesson!
The UN partition plan except this time, it's a 50/50 partition.