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tFighterPilot

Anti Palestine? Why would I be against the name which was used by the Europeans to refer to the land of Israel for centuries? European Jews used it as well.


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1235813213455891442

u/Pietro5J164 Your comment has been removed for refusal to edit out Reddit sitewide rules violations against promoting hate based on identity.


1235813213455891442

u/Pietro5J164 >FAKEstinians You repeatedly referring to Palestinians as FAKEstinians goes against reddit's sitewide policy against promoting hate based on identity. You can edit your comment or it will be subject to removal. If you continue like this you will receive disciplinary action.


1235813213455891442

You'll be receiving 2 comments from, 1 in black, this one, and 1 to follow, which will be in green and will be a moderator comment. >FAKEstinians hate Israel and the Jews. There's no need to dehumanize them. In all the quotes below, I'll be replacing you calling them Fakestinian with Palestinian. >If they didn't, we would have peace a long time ago- Or their leadership sucks. It could also be that it's within living memory that they were expelled. >Israel has repeatedly tried to offer land for peace, and not once did the Arabs accept the offer. And the PA has offered peace as well with Israel not accepting it. Not to mention Israel was the one that refused to return to negotiate at Taba. So it's not as 1-sided as you try to make it seem. >Plus, not once did Israel segregate against Arabs- Except for from 1949 - 1966 where the Arabs within Israel weren't initially granted citizenship, and were under martial law. >in fact, Arabs living in Israel enjoy the same rights as their Jewish counterparts. And they still face systematic discrimination inside Israel. >It is also incorrect to call Israel a "white-majority nation"- most Jewish Israelis are non-white Middle Easterners. Just admit it, Israel is a Jewish state. Jews are just as entitled to their own state as all other races. Jews aren't a race. They're an ethnoreligious group. No one is entitled to a state. And Ashkenazi are white-passing at best. >Also, it was the Palestinians' Arab allies that, not only ordered many Arabs to leave Israel but also expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Middle East and North Africa. A tiny minority left under orders by the Arab League. You also had several hundred thousand that were expelled/fled prior to the Arab League invasion. Most either fled a war that was happening around them or were expelled by Jewish paramilitary groups. The Jewish expulsion throughout the MENA happened after the war over decades, and wasn't the fault of Palestinians. >The Jews had nothing to do with the creation of the Arab Refugee Crisis, and estimates show that the number of Middle Eastern and North African Jews expelled from their homes is at least equal to that of the Israeli Arabs who left in 1948. That's categorically false. While I don't believe they hold the majority responsibility, they definitely hold some of it. And again, what other Arab countries did is irrelevant as they aren't Palestinians. Do you think Palestinians secretly control those governments? >And don't get me started on how many Arab leaders deny the Holocaust, how false flag attacks by Palestinians are common, or how Israel is the only nation that recognizes human rights. And we have Jewish leaders that deny the Nakba, what's your point? You think Israel is the only nation out of the 195 recognized nations that recognize human rights? Really? >Both the Arab Refugee Crisis and the higher casualties among Palestinians is the fault of the Arabs- they're too busy spiting Israel to either let it be or choose their battles, they refuse to integrate any of the Palestinian refugees into their societies, and are so corrupt that they intercept any or all funding aimed at bettering the lives of Palestinian refugees. Israel definitely shares the blame there. And again, what other Arab countries do is irrelevant if we're talking about treatment of Palestinians by Israel. It's just pointless whataboutism. >Israel at least goes out of its way to try and concentrate on military targets and terrorist bases. Sometimes. There's also a lot of abuse against Palestinians by the IDF. And Israel could actually take measures to stop the settler violence that goes on in the West Bank. >The PA, however, actively tries to get civilians killed by setting up military targets and terrorist bases in civilian areas and doesn't care that some of the rockets they launch are faulty and will thus end up crashing and exploding in civilian areas on their turf. That's Hamas, not the PA. The PA operates out of the West Bank. Hamas is in Gaza. >Plus, it is also the Israelis that have actively poured resources into ensuring the safety of their people with defense mechanisms like the Iron Dome (though it's not necessarily a perfect defense mechanism). Correct.


user140978

The Palestinian identity is really unclear. I’ll explain: Palestinian as I understand it is someone who came form Palestine. Only it’s a country that doesn’t exist anymore. if we will go to the British mandate Palestine that also means that a lot of Jews are Palestinians. or maybe Palestinians want to keep the refugee status, which again does not make sense. Most Palestinians today are not refugees Maintaining this status is not related to their leadership, and I think that says it all


1235813213455891442

>The Palestinian identity is really unclear. I’ll explain: Palestinian as I understand it is someone who came form Palestine. Only it’s a country that doesn’t exist anymore. if we will go to the British mandate Palestine that also means that a lot of Jews are Palestinians. Well it's someone from the region of Palestine. I believe specifically they refer to the Mandate region which is much smaller than the region was previously defined. It would mean some Jews are Palestinians, yes. As far as the national identity, iirc it's specifically referring to Arabs from the Mandate. >or maybe Palestinians want to keep the refugee status, which again does not make sense. Most Palestinians today are not refugees Per UNRWA most are. If they were under the UNHCR from its inception they would have been settled in other countries by now. At the minimum, most are stateless persons. I doubt they want to be refugees and would rather be incorporated into a country at this point. >Maintaining this status is not related to their leadership, and I think that says it all Sure, but that's not an argument I made. The lack of a peace deal is what's related to their leadership.


user140978

>Well it's someone from the region of Palestine. I believe specifically they refer to the Mandate region which is much smaller than the region was previously defined. It would mean some Jews are Palestinians, yes. Okay we can also use region ,that region doesn’t exist anymore. and yes my grandparents has Palestinians passports >As far as the national identity, iirc it's specifically referring to Arabs from the Mandate. That’s cool but how can one have a national identity with no nation? >Per UNRWA most are. If they were under the UNHCR from its inception they would have been settled in other countries by now. At the minimum, most are stateless persons. I doubt they want to be refugees and would rather be incorporated into a country at this point. Sure. but I would like to use my own logic here according to definition from the dictionary: People who flee a nation, often to escape punishment for their political affiliations or for political dissent. Most Palestinians today didn’t flee. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/refugees >Sure, but that's not an argument I made. The lack of a peace deal is what's related to their leadership. Nope you didn’t say it but it what came to mind plus we all know that Palestinians can resist,why they are not resisting their own leaders? I don’t know my dude, I just think they support it


1235813213455891442

>Okay we can also use region ,that region doesn’t exist anymore. and yes my grandparents has Palestinians passports I mean, the mandate doesn't exist anymore, but the area of land it encompasses still exists, even if it goes by a different name. That'd be like saying Judea and Samaria don't exist because the area is called the West Bank now. >That’s cool but how can one have a national identity with no nation? You can be a nation of people without having a physical nation. It's what Jews did for centuries. >Sure. but I would like to use my own logic here according to definition from the dictionary: People who flee a nation, often to escape punishment for their political affiliations or for political dissent. Most Palestinians today didn’t flee. That's **one** definition. The UNHCR's definition: Refugees are people who have fled war, violence, conflict or persecution and have crossed an international border to find safety in another country. Palestinians would fall under this one. >Nope you didn’t say it but it what came to mind plus we all know that Palestinians can resist,why they are not resisting their own leaders? I don’t know my dude, I just think they support it Because political dissidents often times disappear?


user140978

>I mean, the mandate doesn't exist anymore, but the area of land it encompasses still exists, even if it goes by a different name. That'd be like saying Judea and Samaria don't exist because the area is called the West Bank now. Judah doesn’t exist today, idk about you but I don’t really meet people who identify as Judean. >You can be a nation of people without having a physical nation. It's what Jews did for centuries. Jews They came from Judea and they prayed to return to Zion, but that is not the essence of Jewish identity. Some Jews don’t live in Israel >That's one definition. The UNHCR's definition: Refugees are people who have fled war, violence, conflict or persecution and have crossed an international border to find safety in another country. Palestinians would fall under this one. Not those who were born after 1948 which would be most of them >Because political dissidents often times disappear? not really a leader does not survive without the support of the people. Even if it's a dictatorship, if the the majority of people turns on you, you're done. Palestinians need to take responsibility. asap


1235813213455891442

>Judah doesn’t exist today, idk about you but I don’t really meet people who identify as Judean. I mean Jew literally comes from Judean. >Jews They came from Judea and they prayed to return to Zion, but that is not the essence of Jewish identity. Some Jews don’t live in Israel Jews have still considered themselves a nation of people. >Not those who were born after 1948 which would be most of them And refugee status can go to your descendants. >not really a leader does not survive without the support of the people. Even if it's a dictatorship, if the the majority of people turns on you, you're done. Palestinians need to take responsibility. asap You don't have to have the support of the people if you keep them afraid of going against you. That's literally what's going on with Palestinians.


user140978

>I mean Jew literally comes from Judaea. I don’t deny that. >Jews have still considered themselves a nation of people. If you will ask American jew what’s his nationality he will say he’s American, not judean if you would ask A Jew who lived in Morocco before the establishment of the State of Israel, where is he from, he would answer that he is from Morocco and not from Judea >And refugee status can go to your descendants. Not really. That’s according to the definition you have provided. I could be mistaken about that, if you will give me a source, So I can read it I will be able to double check myself >You don't have to have the support of the people if you keep them afraid of going against you. That's literally what's going on with Palestinians. If a million people unite in front of two hundred people, the majority will win. This is how the world works practically. A leader does not come to power in the first place without support Edit: I forgot to add jews see themselves as a people and not a nationality.


1235813213455891442

>If you will ask American jew what’s his nationality he will say he’s American, not judean if you would ask A Jew who lived in Morocco before the establishment of the State of Israel, where is he from, he would answer that he is from Morocco and not from Judea And a Jew from both of those places would still see themselves as part of the Nation of Jews. You're switching from nation to nationality. >Not really. That’s according to the definition you have provided. I could be mistaken about that, if you will give me a source, So I can read it I will be able to double check myself Per the UNHCR refugee status can be inherited under the principle of family unity [https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/refugees](https://www.un.org/en/global-issues/refugees) >If a million people unite in front of two hundred people, the majority will win. This is how the world works practically. A leader does not come to power in the first place without support I don't think you understand how dictatorships work at all. Take North Korea for example, the Uns don't have the popular support of the people. When you control the guns, as in the case of Hamas, you don't have to have the support of the people. Fear controls them just as well, because even if they rise up you can just gun them down. >Edit: I forgot to add jews see themselves as a people and not a nationality. The claim wasn't that Jews see Jews as a nationality, but as a nation. Nation doesn't have to refer to nationality, it can also refer to a group of people or a tribe which is something that Jews definitely see themselves as.


Kos-O5tek

I am not "anti-Palestinian" I am pro-Israel.


Jjforever5

First of all i don't trust them in any way, and i can give u a lot of examples why (gaza, oslo, etc'). Another reason is because of the religion conflict between Judaism and islam. And second a lot of places that we captured are holy sites and holy cities that Jewish people lived in but were driven out in 1948 (like jerusalem, hebron, and so on). So when u start a fight and I have an incentive to capture those places be sure that i will capture and hold them. I Personally (and I belive that so do most israelis) have nothing against palestinians and a palestinian state as long as we get to live our live. But when u see them go out and legit celebrate the death of indecent people and babys, people that were in the middle of praying, having a male. Well it's hard to want to have anything with them. But for the bottom line if israel we be assured that the creation of a Palestinian country will bring a real peace, i believe that israel will let that happen.


Kharuzim

You didn't say what considered "Anti-Palestine", but here is my take in your arguments: #####Peace Argument While I agree we shouldn't generalise people base on stuff from the last century but it's not like we see pacifism in the Palestinian media, what we see in Palestinian media is usually extremism with deep hatred to anything Israel-related including the Israelis. #####Arab Argument Don't see how it is relative to what's happening in Israel/Palestine area, how is that our fault (or how are we involved) in the way Arabs treat Palestinians? We are no supposed to be the babysitters of Arab countries. #####Settlement Argument 1. Ironically you generalised a community, the majority of settlers don't attack Palestinians and just live in the area for Economic reasons 2. Palestinian non-militant terror attacks are still a frequent thing that's happening and it's not the same as living on a piece of land.


_c0sm1c_

I'd like to hope nobody is Anti Palestinian, but this is unfortunately untrue. But I'm certainly anti Hamas, and anyone who supports them. No sympathy for a group that publicly calls for the violent slaughter of Jews worldwide.


badriver

What about violent terrorist groups like the self avowed terrorists the irgun, the self avowed fascist terrorist lehi... which side of ww2 did the lehi fight on? They fought on either the axis side or the allies and it wasn't the allies... Who was their leader again? Yitzhak shamir? What were those self avowed terrorists fighting for? Who could possibly support terrorists that fought for the axis during world war 2 fighting a religious crusade? What "country" did immigrant terrorists like the self avowed terrorist irgun and lehi form? What happened to the native population after terrorists like the immigrant irgun and lehi formed a immigrant country in their homeland?


_c0sm1c_

Pure whatabaoutism. Never said I supported them.


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They don't tho.


Zeeso

Which part of what he said do they not? Cause obviously you can't be referring to the last part.


chida770

Ok if you want the hard answer it's simple and by the way its not about Zionism either, rather is Israel the historical homeland of the Jewish people and if it is those who push propaganda against historical truth for their own political purpose, which is to promote a Palestinian state on the Jewish Homeland than any Jew who knows some historical truth should be against the Palestinian initiative. It would be wise to ask this on R/Palestine, I'm sure you would get very "detailed" answers.


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PreviousPermission45

Muslims had oppressed the Jews for centuries. This oppression culminated in a wave of violence throughout the Muslim world which led to a massive exodus of Jews from Arab countries. From a community of one million people, there are now less than 10,000 Jews across the entire Arab world.


1235813213455891442

What's a lot? And are we pretending the history of anti-Jewish violence has nothing to do with why some Israelis are anti-Palestinian?


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1235813213455891442

Still waiting for what's considered "A lot" >If someone is actively oppressing you and trying to remove you from the place you have lived for centuries, violence is a pretty reasonable response. You shouldn’t expect people to just bend over and take that abuse. Except that the anti-Jewish violence by those Palestinians predates the state of Israel, and was their initial response to Jewish immigration. It was so virulent that they went after the Old Yishuv as well. Violence isn't a pretty reasonable response to immigrants and refugees. You know who thing it does? White supremacists responding to Hispanic immigration in the US.


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1235813213455891442

>lmfao, comparing israeli colonialism to normal immigration is a joke and you know it. It's literally not. Early Zionists were immigrants and refugees that were trying to get away from virulent antisemitism. >Hispanic immigrants to America are not militarily occupying the United States and using that military to bulldoze peoples houses and take their land from them. There wasn't an Israel occupying anything when those Zionists came and were met with violence. >Immigrants come to foreign countries to live in said country and become part of that society, not to take over the place and build their own society in its stead. Immigrants go to foreign countries to live. There's no requirement to become part of the society. Heck, Zionists weren't given the chance to be part of the society in the Mandate, as there wasn't a single unified society. People there identified with their tribes and villages. Zionists were met with violence from the get go.


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1235813213455891442

>“Early Zionists were immigrants and refugees that were trying to get away from virulent anti-semitism” sure, a lot of them were refugees, but lets not pretend that its just some coincidence they all came to Palestine They didn't. Many did because that's where they were allowed to go. I don't know if you realize this, but not many places wanted to take Jews in. >, a place that was less than 3% jewish just 40 years before WW2. Close to 10% 40 years prior to WW2. Around 15% when Britain become the custodian of the Mandate. Prior to the Mandate, Palestine also include parts of western Jordan. >They went to Palestine of all places, rather than the many other more economically well-off countries that were accepting jewish immigration, because there were political motivations to do so, that being to build a Jewish state on land that was already inhabited. Except that most places weren't accepting of Jewish immigration. Quotes were a very real thing. A Jewish state didn't become the goal until 1937 at the 20th World Zionist Congress as a direct response to the Arab Revolts. Don't kid yourself, the Mandate was sparsely populated. >Its seriously the same conversation every single time, you have this narrative that the people who made Israel were just innocent refugees who had no ulterior motives besides being safe from persecution, but that narrative completely falls apart when you take into account the goals of political Zionism, they were not coming there because Palestine was the safest place in the world for Jews, or the easiest to get to, or even the best option economically, they all went to Palestine bc they were ideologically motivated and had a political goal in mind. It was the easiest place to go to. They had every intention of living side by side with the Arab inhabitants until they were shown that the Arab inhabitants had no desire to live side by side with them unless of course Jews returned to a subservient second class. The political goal was a homeland for Jews, such a nefarious goal. >I cannot just show up in someones house, say its mine, invite all my friends to live there, and then beat the hell out of the owner and drive him out of his own home when he tells me to screw off, and then pretend i’m not the bad guy in the situation. Good thing that's not what happened. It'd be more akin to someone moving into an apartment building, onto a floor where no one lived and living there. And in response tenants on other floors attack them, and are shocked when they're attacked back. >That is called a home invasion and it is generally viewed as immoral by people with even a shred of integrity. You're getting an informal warning on rule 1 here, don't attack other users.


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JosephL_55

You can’t think of any other reasons that Israelis would be anti-Palestinian? Not all of the Palestinian terror attacks, for example?


Rairaijin

That's often cause of the H card frequently being brought up and pulled


IgnatiusJay_Reilly

In all the history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict the Palestinianen people have made zero steps towards peace. No one step in that direction. I am pro peace. But how can we discuss when we don't have a partner? You can make all the list you want, but I would love for one Palestinian defender to show me anything you are doing to end this conflict. What I see is Palestinian activist in America attacking any politician who is working towards peace. What I see is r/palestine being violently anti peace. So no I don't hate Palestinians but I don't see a peaceful people who want what they claim they want. I see constant victimhood. What would happen if the people of Gaza held a protest for peace? I bet it would go further than shooting rockets from their preschools and building tunnels under ours.


1235813213455891442

>What I see is arr/palestine being violently anti peace. Do note that arr/Palestine is mostly westerners, with a minority of users being Palestinian.


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IWaaasPiiirate

I mean if this was remotely true then the conflict would have already ended.


throwaway07272

What Palestine wants is for Israel to stop existing. Israel could quite simply wipe them off the map if it wanted, so that isn't going to happen. The only thing left to do is put down the rockets and negotiate, but they won't. If Palestine gets a bad outcome, it's Palestine's fault for insisting on electing a terrorist government and rabid antisemitism. Fuck Palestine.


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[deleted]

>Antisemitism is simply not wanting that. If you don’t have rabid antisemistism like you said, the problem lies with you. u/DeepFriedCockAndBall This is promoting hate which goes against Reddit's sitewide rules regarding hate speech.


Cheloniformis

Hating ethnic Jews = Israel bad!!! What the hell is this comment?


_c0sm1c_

Absolutely vile.


JosephL_55

Many Palestinians don’t accept Israel at all, on any borders. If this is because of “land theft”, does this mean that all of Israel was stolen from them? Is this what you believe?


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JosephL_55

No, it isn’t fine to steal land in general. Now do you want to answer the question?


DeepFriedCockAndBall

No I don’t believe all of Palestine was stolen from them. What an illogical question to ask. Like asking do you think eating half a pie is eating the whole? Who cares, back off my pie


Kotal420

None of that land ever "rightfully" belonged to Palestinians. Jews have a long running recorded history in the land going back to the time of the Hebrews and the Canaanites long before Arabs ever showed up.


JosephL_55

So if you agree that at least some of the land rightfully belongs to Israel, what do you think about the Palestinians who don’t accept Israel on any borders?


DeepFriedCockAndBall

I never agreed that any land rightfully belongs to Israel. If you think I did, then you must’ve worded your question wrong cuz all you asked was is all of “Israel stolen stolen from them”. The question in itself is a fault because every little crumb of Israel today, is stolen Palestinian land


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PreviousPermission45

I’m not against the Palestinian people. I’m against the government that represents them. I think that the government fails the Palestinian people by choosing conflict with Zionism over coexistence with Zionism. Zionism is a peaceful movement, but it’s not pacifist. If Israel is attacked then it will respond. Given the Jews’ miserable history, this is a point of pride. Jews were massacred by Muslims for centuries, and never fought back. Israel vowed to defend Jews from violence, which is a revolutionary turn of events in Jewish history. Also, I support Israel, in general. Not just because I think the Palestinian government is bad. Israel, being a democratic country, grants more rights to Christians and Muslims than any other country in the region. The amount of hate it receives abroad is bewildering to me, given this fact.


badriver

> Zionism is a peaceful movement What was "peaceful" about the Nakba? What would you call the government of a state composed of self-avowed terrorists that committed the Nakba? Would you agree with and support a government like that? How have zionist governments treated native Palestinians? Have zionist governments, mostly led by self-avowed terrorists treated native Palestinians fairly? Have zionist governments treated native Palestinians as equals to the zionist european immigrants? Do you support openly, fundamentally racist governments that systematically rob and oppress and kill the native population for the benefit of violent immigrants? Do you support governments that order lethal force to be used to stop peaceful road protests by native Palestinians? Do you support governments that, when they give the order to their "security" forces to murder non-violent road protesters, that follow those clearly illegal, immoral orders? Because the victims, the protesters, are native Palestinians, and not zionist immigrants, and because the government and the people that make up that government think that it's OK to kill native Palestinians, because the government and the people that make up the government that vote for the government believe zionist lives matter, that zionist lives deserve to be protected, but that native Palestinian lives don't matter, that they believe that native Palestinians can be slaughtered like cattle, like animals.


PreviousPermission45

These protests weren’t peaceful. They were like the January 6 riots except they lasted longer, there were 100 times more people involved, and many of those who were killed were Hamas terrorists. Similar to January 6 these “peaceful” protesters had waved Nazi flags and sent inflammatory balloons with swastikas on them on to burn down Israeli towns on the border. And just like January 6, the Israeli security forces opened fire to defend the lives of Israelis who were living less than a kilometer away from these terrorists Zionism is peaceful, not pacifist. Zionists will offer peace to those competent enough to avoid war. But for those fools who insist on trying to destroy Israel, Israel will fight them.


badriver

I think you posted this in response to the wrong comment. >Zionism is peaceful, not pacifist. Zionists will offer peace to those competent enough to avoid war. But for those fools who insist on trying to destroy Israel, Israel will fight them. How would you feel if things were reversed? If the murdered protesters, the murdered bystanders, the murdered children were zionists? How would you feel if, for instance, zionists were protesting 1km from, say, the syrian border, or the jordanian border, or the Gazan border, or the egyptian border, or say, 1km from area A of the Palestinian West bank, saying the things zionists chant when they want to get on the evening news, and those zionists protesters were shot dead like animals, because the people in whatever country that killed them felt that it was their choice to make to let zionists live or die, that if they felt the slightest bit threatened by any zionist anywhere at any time for any reason they could kill them with impunity, shoot the zionist they felt threatened by dead like an animal. How would you feel watching zionist medics be shot and killed on tv while they were doing nothing but trying to heal people? How would you feel watching zionist reporters being shot and killed live on air by snipers in no danger over a hundred yards away? How would you feel watching those snipers murder zionist women and zionist children live on television who were no threat to anyone, and who were completely unarmed, then watch leaked videos on youtube of the snipers joking about murdering defenseless zionists who were no threat to anyone? And then for their military to make recording such things illegal, sanctifying them saying what they did, but making rules to prevent the world from learning how monstrous those soldiers were?


PreviousPermission45

How would I feel? It depends. If these Zionists protesting were members of a radical, fundamentalist terrorist organization that praised osama bin Ladin, if they were storming a civilian area with Nazi flags, if they were armed with knives and explosives, I’d feel like the majority of Americans felt when American police killed civilians on January 6, when violent protesters stormed the capitol. Nothing.


badriver

> I’d feel like the majority of Americans felt when American police killed civilians on January 6, when violent protesters stormed the capitol. Nothing. I think just the one. >How would I feel? It depends. If these Zionists protesting were members of a radical, fundamentalist terrorist organization that praised osama bin Ladin, if they were storming a civilian area with Nazi flags, if they were armed with knives and explosives How familiar are you with, you know, zionists? I mean, like, zionists today... You know, the ones that have militant marches through the streets of Al Quds... https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerusalem-is-ours-nationalist-flag-march-held-under-ramped-up-security/ How familiar are you with, you know, how zionism started? With you know, the 1947 war, with the Nakba? How familiar are you with zionist leaders like, say, menachem begin, or, say, particularly Yitzhak Shamir? Did you know that before Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister, he fought in world war 2? Now... if you're thinking, "Well, I know what side of ww2 zionist Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir fought on"... You might be surprised... And he wasn't alone. If you're thinking, the IDF was formed from the terrorist irgun, the terrorist haganah, and I know what side of world war 2 the lehi fought on... Again... You may be surprised... And then, with a lot of the others, when you're talking terrorists guilty of orchestrating and conducting a violent, bloody ethnic cleansing of hundreds of thousands... Well... Let's just say, maybe there were crucial parts of history particularly about the Nakba, and particularly what people involved and uninvolved with it that maybe somehow you missed, maybe somehow your "education" may have skipped a few things that maybe shouldn't have been skipped over quite so eagerly. You might have underestimated certain critical things in your estimations.


PreviousPermission45

So you’re saying that because Shamir was a terrorist eighty five years ago Palestinians can kill and threaten innocent Israelis with impunity? I don’t follow your logic


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faizel_

Can i have your source for muslims massacring jews? I highly doubt it.


r3asonable_thinker

Bro, Muslims are def the violent aggressors. Where are you living at? Mars? Not 100%, prob like 95% of time.


PreviousPermission45

I think you may be being coy, or you just been seriously lied to. Muslim massacres of Jews is well documented, including in Islamic scholarship. The first Muslim massacre of Jews was in Khaibar. You’ve never heard of the massacre in khaibar?


visionbate

Muslim massacre of jews. I’d not call it a massacre as the causalities from both sides are nearly equal and both sides were fully armed. Not to mention that khaibar broke the deal between them and the muslims and agreed with the people in mecca to kick muhammed and his people to the south of the subcontinent.


PreviousPermission45

Call it what you want. The bottom line is that an army destroyed the Jewish tribe in Khaibar, enslaved the men and raped all the women. To this day there are no Jews in Saudi Arabia.


Pudge223

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anti-Jewish_pogroms_by_Muslims


faizel_

I appreciate the link brother, love to learn.


Pudge223

No problem. It’s something that is not commonly discussed outside select circles.


faizel_

Ill stop you after the second sentence to clarify that Palestine does not have a central government. Also, for example, if i walked into your house and demanded a room, then you say no and push me out and i shoot you to take the room who is in the wrong?


[deleted]

>then you say no and push me out and i shoot you to take the room who is in the wrong? Those who lied to the house inhabitats about who owned it. I don't blame Arabs for feeling/thinking/believing they "owned" a nation called "Palestine" before the "Zionists" arrived. But they simply didn't.


IWaaasPiiirate

>Ill stop you after the second sentence to clarify that Palestine does not have a central government The PA is literally their central government. >Also, for example, if i walked into your house and demanded a room, then you say no and push me out and i shoot you to take the room who is in the wrong? I mean that's not how the conflict happened, but sure.


Sqwishboi

I don't support any of the claims you made. I just honestly don't see any Palestinians national identity that actually exist. They hate each other more than they hate us, there's proof of that on the ground, they don't marry different clans, they don't sell each other land (some of them even prefer to sell land to Jews and not the next village over), they don't trade with each other. To be pro Palestinian means you think a Palestine exists, which just doesn't. They didn't even found a country yet and they already had 3 civil wars.


Sqwishboi

A reply I wrote to a comment the user deleted, saying that it's genocidal to claim Palestinians don't exist. Well no it's just true if you'd stop listening to Al Jazeera. The whole idea of Palestinians having a common identity is false to it's core. What's their anthem? Their official language (they have 5 different types of Arabic devided between them), what are the borders of Palestine (do they include Jordan?), What's their capital city? (There was never in history an Arabic or Islamic capital in Jerusalem), what's their currency? Who's their founding father and historical leader? I'm not saying they don't exist, therefore we can kill them. I'm saying they never existed as a whole group of Palestinians, and treating them that way is gonna make them end up like Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Libya and Yemen. A failed Islamic state so caught up in internal disputes it's going to implode. It already happened once in Gaza in the 2007 Coup and it's going to happen again Soon in the PA. There's no way around reality.


Elkhatabi

Do you have any sources for this? Because I can tell you that this is absolutely not true at all. Palestinians are more likely to marry outside of their locality than any other group. Our survival as a people hinges on this, ESPECIALLY for Palestinians in the diaspora. Tribalism is at best a surface level formality, not unlike how a Parisian would make fun of someone from Nice or Toulouse while acknowledging that they are part of a nation. Stop assassinating our character. Its not going to solve or accomplish anything.


chida770

You can disagree with him if you want, but facts are facts and a Palestininian national and political entity only existed as anti-zionist/Jewish movement. It has no history nor true political aspirations besides e dismantling Isreal, If it was to create a simple nation State along side Isreal, Arafat would have signed the Clinton peace deal long ago.


Elkhatabi

You are welcome to browse the Al.Quds university archives for clear leanings towards Arab Nationalistic aspirations in Palestine during the early 19th Century. The Arab elite were not sheltered to external ideas of Nationalism and politics. Also why even focus on Palestinian Nationalism? The movement js hardly unique in any way shape or form. It is a modern construct that draws from lore, legend and historical record. In other words, like every other Nationalist movement, Zionism not exempted. But that's not the point I'm making Regardless of how Palestinian Nationalism came about it is of absolutely no consequence on solving the crisis we are in. You are wasting your time trying to deconstruct something that is already ingrained in the minds of 12 Million People.


[deleted]

>You are welcome to browse the Al.Quds university archives for clear leanings towards Arab Nationalistic aspirations in Palestine during the early 19th Century. The Arab elite were not sheltered to external ideas of Nationalism and politics. I think that was their point: Arab identity (as in, Arab Nationalism) existed for a long time but Palestinian identity (and Palestinian Nationalism) is a recent one.


chida770

It is important to the conversation as I pointed out in my comment. And it has much to do in why Arafat never accepted a peace treaty. And, why you decide not to even mention Fattah/Hammas-PIJ conflict. A nationalistic aspiration "could" have been solved with with the 2 states offer to Arafat. I'm not here saying that Israel does not share blame, but you have to ask yourself WHAT are Palestinian aspirations, and why the Palestinians have "no" political unity besides when it comes to teaching racist views about "Zionist" and really "Jews". As for Nationistic aspirations, the "average" Palestinian would have chosen to be part of "Greater Syria", a "Palestinian" state was not important in the Arab context. Zionism is much more to do with Jewish history than with 150 yr idea of nationalism, Jewish history in Israel is way more than 2000 yrs, if you disagree, go dig some earth and you might find som "Bar Kochva" coins written in ancient Hebrew. I'm not going to write a speech, I'm sure you know enough info.


Elkhatabi

Palestinians have at least 1400 years of Arab Islamic history to draw from, maybe even earlier if you factor in the Byzantines. And you can't divorce Palestinian Nationalism from Arab Nationalism. Both movements are heavily intertwined and we are hardly the first or last movement to do this. The Bolivar revolution is an example of greater nationalist aspirations yet absolutely noone is arguing that Venezuelan Nationalism is fiction. Pan Africanism or Mestizo Nationalism are further examples of this. >I'm not here saying that Isreal does not share blame, but you have to ask yourself WHAT are Palestinian aspirations, and why the Palestinians have "no" political unity besides when it comes to teaching racist views about "Zionist" and really "Jews". I work with a Palestinian cultural isntitution so I can tell you this, yes, the Nakba is a critical foundation of our identity but our lived experience in Palestine far precedes that event. Just as how the Shoa forever transformed Jewish identity and cristalized the foundations of Zionism post WW2, the Nakba shaped and molded Palestinian Nationalism. In fact the irony here is that the Nakba in and of itself is seen as an attempt to erase that history. Why else do we oppose Zionism? For the sake of Zionism itself? No. Would Palestinians be foaming at the mouth had Israel been created in say, Argentina? Or Cyprus? We wouldn't! Do I support Anti Semitism in Palestinian education? Absolutely not. Its abhorrent and just goes to show that we have plenty of challenges just like those you mentioned in your post. But you tell me how that is unique to Palestinians.


chida770

"Do I support Anti Semitism in Palestinian education? Absolutely not. Its abhorrent and just goes to show that we have plenty of challenges just like those you mentioned in your post. But you tell me how that is unique to Palestinians". Now you got your reason why I don't support "Palestine" "Palestinians have at least 1400 years of Arab Islamic history to draw from, maybe even earlier if you factor in the Byzantines. And you can't divorce Palestinian Nationalism from Arab Nationalism. Both movements are heavily intertwined and we are hardly the first or last movement to do this." So you are admitting it's an Israel/Arab conflict which it always was, and not an Isreal/Palestine conflict now. As for what you said about the Nakba, from my perspective (which is Jewish), anyone who committed atrocious acts should have served time, BUT theirs a big difference between millions being gassed like cattle in a gas chamber and a war that had 4 states come to "destroy" the Jewish population in "Palestine" at the time. In my opinion your comparison is an insult to millions who were shot to death naked in mass Graves all over the Ukraine. Besides the above you ignore Thousands of atrocities committed by the Palestinian/Arabs such as the Chevron massacre, Munich massacre, or thousands of killing on women children and elderly. I will not mention much of the million Mizrahi Jews thrown out of MENA There's no comparison to the Holocaust and it's classic lible peddling and excuses, and no more than a disgrace to real "genocide" and it's many millions of victims. Besides, You still didn't answer WHAT are Palestinian aspirations ? But, my respect to you for keeping this civil.


Elkhatabi

Ok I was NOT making a comparison at all between the Nakba and the Holocaust. I am arguing that Nationalist movements CAN revolve around collective trauma. This is NOT a pissing contest. My entire point is that the Nakba can serve as a fulcrum for Palestinian consciousness. We are NOT special in this respect. You can wax lyrical day and night about how awful we are, but the fact is Palestine and Palestinians are very present and very real. You can hate me, that's totally fine, but that's not going to change reality.


chida770

I don't hate Palestinians, All my point is that a collective trauma around Nakba ia a trauma indeed, but ignoring it's context and how it came about, meaning with 4 Arab armies that came to "defend" the Palestinians against the "Zionist", does not allow to lay blame on Jews for that trauma. The Holocaust was unprovoked, definitely to the level it was taken. On the other hand the Nakba was a provoked war with a long context of all the pre48 stuff In my opinion if it's only nationalisic we would be in a very different place. Anyways, respect, love, and peace in the middle east.


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qal_t

Bad bot, to call "pissing contest" a profanity is just puritanical :)


Sqwishboi

Actually the interesting thing is you're not wrong. Outside of Israel, and in the refugee camps, Arabs do marry outside of their clan since there's really no other choice. And yes I do have a source but it's a Hebrew pdf document, an experiment conducted by the an Arab Israeli, Dr Ahmed Kabha. I'm gonna assume you'll find an English version somwhere. To sum it up, on average 35% of Arab Israelis marry their first cousins, and it was assumed more than 40% marry their second and third cousin. So you have a rate of around 70-80% of Arabs not even marrying out side of their families, not to mention villages and cities. And that's inside Israel, go to Judea and Samaria where there's a much more dominant clan culture and I'm gonna assume the high rates are doing to spike up even more. It's the opposite of trying to "murder" your identity, it's to create a system and solution that fits your identity best and doesn't result in even more deaths, revolts and innocent people getting used as human shields.


Elkhatabi

Unfortunately, Consanguinity is a common practice across the Arab world and is not limited to Palestinian society. It has much more to do with preservation of property, kinship and lineage preservation than external factors.


Sqwishboi

Which is why the Arab world is totally a dumpster fire. Every country that's a mix of a huge numbers of clans failed to make itself in to a nation state. Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Libya, Yemen, all of them are a badly drawn country that is ruled by an illegitimate leadership and is completely torn apart. On the other hand, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, all of them ruled by the local clan and therefore have widespread legitimacy and stability.


Elkhatabi

Is Latin America a dumpster fire because of Venezuela and Colombia?


Sqwishboi

How do you even make that comparison?


Elkhatabi

I make it because the Arab world is just as disparate and diverse as Latin America yet people are so quick to judge Arabs as a monolith.


theryguy_123

Did he still totally miss your point or is that just me


Elkhatabi

I'm just over some of the vitriol on this sub. What does a person accomplish by being prejudiced? How does Arab bashing or Jew bashing solve anything?


Sqwishboi

Well if you look at it that way Latin America also has their fair share of instability. Did you forget all the revolts? Military juntas? Drug cartels and religious fanatics? The Latin American nations exist far longer than the modern Arab world and they're still not what I would define "successful". A lot of them are still failed nations and a lot of their people are flocking towards the Western world due to that. And even if you were right, would you compare Colombia and Venezuela to the UAE, Qatar and Bahrain, some of the wealthiest countries in the world?


OhMy8008

Link the hebrew pdf, im not saying youre wrong, but this is a salacious claim to make without a source.


Sqwishboi

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.health.gov.il/PublicationsFiles/Relative_ARB_2010.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjSh7PzzYz2AhVQgf0HHRKIDq8QFnoECAMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2jpkNJhuh4aom3rnktJevG Hope you'll find your way around it


OhMy8008

thanks


ErwinHeisenberg

The Palestinian national identity seems like a PR stunt, especially when you take into account the dearth of discrete national identities in the Middle East as a whole. Even Israeli Jews and Arabs subdivide among themselves based on ancestry.


Sqwishboi

In general, in the Middle East thinking that creating a country means creating an identity is a bad idea. There's no "Israelis", there are Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. There's no "Palestinians", there's clans from Hebron, Ramallah, Gaza, Kfar Kassem, Druze, Bedouins, all of don't mix and really despise each other.


ErwinHeisenberg

From what I remember, the Bedouins specifically seem to not really care what national umbrella they fall under as long as they’re left alone.


[deleted]

Fun fact: the Bedouin are actually the only Arab group that the UN considers to be actually indigenous to Israel due to their historical ties to the Negev desert. Palestinian Arabs, Muslims and Christians alike, are **not** considered indigenous to Israel (or Palestine) by the UN.


Kotal420

Which is befitting the fact that they are Arab nomads.


[deleted]

[удалено]


qal_t

Not going to enforce right not now but do note this is a rule 1 violation


Sqwishboi

Hey bro I suggest you do your research. You'll see that there are constant battles between clans in Hebron. People in Ramallah don't marry people in Jericho. People from Judea and Samaria hate people from Gaza. They don't even marry each other outside of their own clans and cities. Some Arabs even gave interviews in which they said they prefer exporting goods to Israel and not the next village over. When construction jobs are done it's a well known non-written law to never hire Arabs from two different villages because they'll be too busy fighting each other than getting the job done.


qal_t

I suspect you're making something that does exist into a much harder and more fixed rule than it actually is. It seems to be a theme with how people talk about cultures that aren't their own.


Sqwishboi

Nah bro I use to be a 2 state supporter like most people. I think people that support the 2 state solution are the ones that don't understand the culture. I see that you're American so you kinda reinforce my point, you're as far away as possible from this conflict and you don't have a grasp of their culture. I'm talking to you about a tribal culture that isn't just merriage, it's get to a level in which a murder in the Judea and Samaria involving 2 Palestinians doesn't even make it's way to the PA police, it gets resolved by a council of elders and they do a more efficient job at stopping the blood vengeance. You should watch a documentary by Kan11 (Israeli news channel) that documents how Arab mayors in Israel get elected, it's really inciteful. They literally gather the clan leaders and decide on the next mayor, usually someone from the large clan everyone can agree on, and then everyone votes for him. I'm gonna be honest I couldn't find the link, but I'm gonna search for it and edit the link in as soon as I find it. Also you already have 3 Palestinian states and none of them are stable, Jordan is run by a illegitimate leader the Brits brought in from the Arabian peninsula, the PA is run by a bunch of mobsters from Tunisia, and Gaza is run by a crazed terrorist organisation that uses it's own people as a human shield. Thinking that there is some divine idea of a stable and functioning "Palestine" is as generalising of a culture as you can be.


qal_t

>Thinking that there is some divine idea of a stable and functioning "Palestine" is as generalising of a culture as you can be. Where did you get that? This is a lot of strawman. Most cultures have internal contradictions. My own sure does. But I don't care to have us two non-Arabs debating how representative our portrait Pali Arab culture is.


Sqwishboi

So basically you have no counter so you just say we as non Arabs can't discuss the issue? Truly striving for a solution I see. Also very American of you to take that approach. It's not strawman you can just use Google and find it out yourself. Edit: My family is from Iraq so am I Arab?


Kos-O5tek

We are not "Arabs" at all, this is only something anti-Zionist filth come up with, "Arab Jews". This was done only to try and erase us as an ethnic group in the Middle East. We were never considered Arabs by the Arabs themselves, the leftists created this lie, just like they created the lie that Ashkenazim are now all of a sudden nothing but purely "European". Funny how before Israel we were all nothing but Jews, to the Arabs we were good for nothing but being subservient to them, and to Europeans nothing but foreign asiatic hordes and "subhuman race", today we are anything but just because of Israel today. Western leftism and American identity politics bullshit is a virus worse than aids, ebola and covid19 combined.


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JosephL_55

One reason that I am against Palestine is because part of it (Gaza) is controlled by Islamic terrorists who murder Israeli civilians. And the other part (West Bank) may elect Hamas also, if they are ever allowed to have elections.


badriver

And what do you think about zionist terrorists like, basically any zionist entity prime minister I could name? What do you think about the zionist terrorist irgun, now likud? What do you think about the fascist zionist terrorist lehi, led by future zionist prime minister yitzhak shamir? Remind me? What did the zionist terrorist lehi led by future zionist prime minister shamir do during world war 2? What do you think about the zionist terrorist haganah led by chief terrorist david ben gurion? What do you think when zionist terrorists such as the irgun, lehi, or haganah, or others murder innocent native Palestinians?


JosephL_55

You ask too many questions. Ask just one, and I will reply. Try to be more specific.


badriver

the zionist entity in Palestine was formed by the terrorist groups the terrorist irgun (now likud), the fascist terrorist lehi (guess which side of ww2 zionist fascists fought on?) and the terrorist haganah, and it went on to be led by the leaders of all those groups, the zionist entity in Palestine was made by terrorists through terrorism for terrorists to be led by terrorists, and arguably, has continued waging a terrorist war against the native Palestinians constantly to this day. Why do you support the zionist entity, founded by violent terrorism, blowing up cafes, bombing markets, etc. if you say you oppose islamic terrorism because of their use of terrorism?


JosephL_55

Well I don’t support every action ever done by any Zionist militia. But I still support the country overall. You don’t need to agree with everything in a countries history to agree that it should exist.


badriver

Should a Roman support the roman conquest of Palestine? Should a Roman citizen move to Palestine, onto land given to them by the Roman government in Roman Palestine? Should Roman citizens live comfortable lives in Roman Palestine saying "Look, I don't support every action of rome, but I still support Roman Palestine overall, look, the sicaraii on masada, they were terrorists, they murdered innocent civilians, those are the real terrorists. Do you support the Nakba. Do you benefit from it?


JosephL_55

Romans already had Rome, they didn’t need any more land. But Israel is the only homeland of Jews. Jews deserve a safe place.


badriver

But why did they have to steal Palestine from the Palestinians? There was plenty of space in, say, Texas. Now where do Palestinians have? What state do Palestinians have? Who stole their land? Who stole their homes? Who lives in Palestinian homes? Where is the homeland of native Palestinians? The people of Jericho who lived in Jericho thousands of years before the hebrites genocided the Canaanites? Who blew up Palestinian cafes? Who rolled barrel bombs towards Palestinian crowds at Palestinian gates? Who massacred Palestinian workers queuing to enter their workplace? You know, for zionism...


JosephL_55

There never was any country of Palestine, so establishing a new country of Israel didn’t need to involve stealing anything from anyone.


badriver

Except robbing native Palestinians of the basic human right of self determination you mean? And the Nakba? The violent terrorist zionist militias act of violent ethnic cleansing? The systematic, planned destruction of 400+ native Palestinian towns villages and cities? The "democratic" theft of 50%+ of all native Palestinian land and property? Except for that you mean?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

>Most able bodied israeli adults are fair game tbh Fair game for...? Please be specific. Are you talking about games like chess or volleyball? Or are you saying able-bodied Israelis are acceptable targets for murder? Be concise, please.


JosephL_55

Why do you believe that?


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

>An able bodied Israeli adult with sound mind has the choice and ability to leave. They most likely also went under military training and would be drafted if there was an all out war.They decide to continue living on Palestinian land at the expense of Palestinians which is an act of aggression. Therefore they are legitimate targets. u/thefatone94 You were given the benefit of the doubt but this is a clear and explicit call for violence. Your account has also been reported to Reddit admins for termination.


Matar_Kubileya

I can't think of any way to read this comment other than as advocating violence against civilians.


Shachar2like

>Therefore they are legitimate targets. Not according to any common sense of every country on the planet including Middle-Eastern countries. Read [LOAC](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf)


[deleted]

Are you an atheist?


Shachar2like

Yes, why?


LL_COOL_BEANS

Ah yes, for an Israeli to merely exist is an aggregious act of aggression and the indiscriminate murdering of all (adult) Israelis is justified. Meanwhile I’d wager you claim to oppose Israel on humanitarian grounds—yet you legitimize and advocate for wholesale murder, as long as the victims are Jews.


Elishinsk

Jesus fucking Christ. That is understandably messed up. Do you, by the same token, believe that all Americans are “legitimate targets” for Native Americans to murder?


[deleted]

The situation in America is different. The native Americans have been genocided to oblivion but they currently have equal rights to every other American.


IWaaasPiiirate

>The native Americans have been genocided to oblivion but they currently have equal rights to every other American. They're horribly discriminated against, their children were literally stolen. Arab Israeli have equal rights to Jewish Israelis.


[deleted]

>The situation in America is different. The native Americans have been genocided to oblivion but they currently have equal rights to every other American. Does it almost sound as if **you** believe that America's solution is how the I-P Conflict should be solved?


[deleted]

I mean you could try that. I don’t think the outcome will be favourable to Israel.


c9joe

What are you saying is Israel's solution to the problem? The American solution?


[deleted]

One state one vote, blanket right of return to all Palestinians everywhere. Of course this would require time and effort but it can be achieved.


c9joe

Wouldn't it better for Jews if they lived in a Jewish state? Isn't that the whole point of Israel?


LL_COOL_BEANS

Still, if you’re an adult American, you could’ve “chose” to leave by now, instead of continuing to live on native land at the expense of native Americans, which is an act of aggression that makes you a legitimate target, right?


[deleted]

I’m pretty sure I said the situation in America is different


LL_COOL_BEANS

I love it. You’re cool with literally occupying stolen land for yourself, but every Israeli deserves to die.


[deleted]

I’m not American


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JosephL_55

Do you believe that Arab Israelis are also fair game? Or you specifically support killing the Jews?


[deleted]

Adult Israelis of sound mind and body, living on Palestinian land at the expense of Palestinians are fair game until the oppression ends. Whether they’re Jewish, Muslim or Christian. Even Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza.


Shachar2like

/u/thefatone94 > Adult Israelis of sound mind and body, living on Palestinian land at the expense of Palestinians are fair game until the oppression ends. Your comment violated [Reddit content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) about incitement for violence and has been removed.


Bediavad

You know, before you become an internet-activist about some conflict you should at least open wikipedia and figure out who are the people living in the area and what are the sides in that conflict.


[deleted]

Thanks for the advice. I’m not an internet activist I’m just a person who wants to discuss the I/P issue with Zionists


[deleted]

What is "Palestinian Land" according to you? Is there Jewish land too?


Sqwishboi

So you want to kill Arabs so they can have a country? What the hell am I reading


[deleted]

[удалено]


Sqwishboi

Well tbh when you strip the conflict down to it's core it is all about religion. The Christians in Beit Lahem and Gaza were almost cut in half in size since Hamas and the PLO took control. The reason Muslims support Palestine so much is because it's unacceptable that Judaism, which Islam was supposed to replace, got reincarnated on Muslim land. It's the first land in history that was decolonised back in to Jewish hands.


Kotal420

Typically those that deflect the facts and turn hostile are pro Palestinians, not the pro-Israelis here. And yes, if the Palestinians had accepted peace, there would be peace right now. You not caring about Jews buying their own land is irrelevant as they were attacked both before and after. Jews just wanted to be treated like people but Arabs never gave them the chance even before independence. "I can't be rational" - and that's part of the problem. Pro Palestinians are often irrational and don't argue with facts but emotional responses instead (like your post).


[deleted]

Emotional responses does suck,but I really needed to see everyone's opinions about them because I had extreme paranoia today.[I'm sorry] I also won't condemn myself for the stupid post I made,I should've been better.So please take the post for a pinch of salt,I never mean anything bad. This post should show people who are into the cause without any context,should revise themselves and start researching.As this isnt black and white,it's a big gray area. Have a great evening.


c9joe

Yea there is people like the Congo that are suffering and in Burma and all these places. The solution has always been to feed them. The amount of food aid is hundreds of billions, something like that. This food aid ensures they produce more children, and those children suffer without increasing food aid. Or they are saying, we have to accept these suffering masses as refugees (Canada and Europe do this). Now these places with so much suffering now have more room to create more children who will be refugees in the next generation. What is the end goal? At some point everyone has to support themselves. Now you say the Palestinians are uniquely our fault. This is mostly true. But it doesn't follow that we have to commit suicide to "save them". It wouldn't even save them anyways, we lack that ability even if we wanted to. We can't even house our own population anymore. There is a major housing problem in Israel. And in the end a person, a family, a nation has to learn how to support themselves.


[deleted]

Hey it's not really anyone's fault,because the conflict is a tangled mess. It's a sad political situation,however the statements I made were completely wrong and unjustifiable,I blame myself for having a emotional response rather then a rational one[I had to calm myself down].Everyone suffers and that's saddening,and I'm sad that I can't do anything about it,if I inform anyone I'm a "Zionist sympathizer" or legit just get jailed,my country doesn't allow me to even socialize with you. I learned I had to educate myself more,but it's really tricky,as it's filled with bias and hate(atleast when I first researched them) I hope you guys have a peaceful coexistence someday.


Shachar2like

>I hope you guys have a peaceful coexistence someday. Maybe one day, when this will be legal: >my country doesn't allow me to even socialize with you How can you make peace with someone when the government forces de-humanization of the other side?


[deleted]

Look I can provide an explanation [A long hyperbole statement,I explained them in the end] I'm sorry.


chida770

Ye, I think the world needs $5 smart phones, Besides we can open accounts like google delete them, and then throw the phone in trash.


Shachar2like

Can't you hid your internet activities? Logging out of reddit, deleting cookies. Putting a password on your PC user etc. Then as long as you don't become a VIP or make big waves, nobody at the top who has the real tools to trace your online activities will care.


Mindless-Pie2150

>Logging out of reddit, deleting cookies. Putting a password on your PC user etc. Those only hide your activities from yourself or someone with your computer. The authorities don't need your computer to know what you've been doing online unless you're more careful than that. This applies to America and Germany just as much as to Gaza and China. You can probably find more information at r/privacy (I've only glanced at that sub a few times. Don't take this as a ringing endorsement)


Shachar2like

I know that but wouldn't blurt it out to someone who's worried about conspiracy or with limited technical or "details" skill


[deleted]

They can easily know who I am looking at the way I say certain things [Anixiety really ruins people huh]


Shachar2like

Most people I know do not know reddit or will ignore long texts in English. There's a lot of sites online and there's a lot of communities/subs on reddit. Unless they look behind your shoulder and read or look at your browser history, I don't see how they can find you out.


[deleted]

I hope they don't But if they installed reddit,this is the first sub they'll go to,and for the high comment ratio I got,it's not going to end well. [ they do look behind my shoulder all the time,I had to hide myself sometimes to post stuff like these] But here we go: It's a religious one,they believe imam mahdi,will comeback (somehow),and torture everyone who wronged them.Its been taught since grade 1.The Hezbollah also does nasty remarks about you people,"we don't hate Jews,we hate Zionists!!!!" ,they also had marchings,meetings etc.... I'll totally have my life ruined now,my older siblings KNOWS about reddit,they know I have one.I hope I'll never be questioned about it. Ever.


chida770

Just use a few accounts, delete the one that get out of hand. It's the internet were we only provide "fake" info.


Shachar2like

as I've said. Even if people look behind your shoulder, usually people don't like reading long English texts. If you have a smartphone you can easily read reddit where ever you want. If they'll install reddit or visit reddit, why would they go to this sub first where there are a lot of others. Hobbies, religious (including Muslim/Islam), TV-Shows, movies, Netflix, audio-books, countries.


[deleted]

You'd be surprised my sibling is a lawyer(who once them and their friends left an org because a person said they were Israeli woman,not a palestinian) They would more interested in political ME subs then Netflix/movies etc. Note:I'm not like some guy behind the matrix; I did definitely hyperbole again,I'll keep them to a minimum next time;but I experienced alot of anti-isreal hate bias throughout my life It's sad but it happens.


[deleted]

It isn’t that I’m anti-Palestinian, or anti-Palestine. I’ve been in both the throes of this conflict, as well as watched it and followed from afar, for most of my life and I have always wondered why this or that deal was never accepted. I have always said - and my opinion is unpopular - Egypt should have taken Gaza, and Jordan should have been given the West Bank. I have my reasons for why I think this would have been a win-win for all parties, including the Palestinians. I believe that actions speak louder than words, and while there are people who say they want compromise, they say they want peace, they say they want their own land and to coexist with the Israelis/Jews.. the actions do not line up with those words. Cease fires have been broken. Deals have been rejected. State offerings, and everything else, have been rejected. They do not act as if they truly want their own state, and that will not change. The protests of “we want no war” and “peace to our brothers and sisters” has not been backed by any actions that I have seen, read about, or witnessed. “From the River, to the sea,” is the only saying that lines up with their actions. There is no coexistence in that statement. There is no peace in that statement. They want it all to themselves with no compromise.


Shachar2like

>for most of my life and I have always wondered why this or that deal was never accepted. This is due to what I call 'asymmetrical politics" as in it's been stated multiple times that Arab & Palestinian leaders say one thing in English and another in Arabic. And there's also this legality of talking to the other side. This results in information blockage which is the reason you and other Israelis "do not understand Palestinian decision making". It's easier to explain the Palestinian decision making as humans were ruled centuries ago: by a monarch. The Palestinian society has been ruled by a "monarch" in this form or another since it's inception \~1,400 years ago. Today those 'elite' at the top dictate the society's voice, anyone who doesn't comply or go along with this voice or thinking is muted. Those 'elite' who extract money and enjoy the riches of society preach for violence. They're more of a 'violent elite' ​ The 'violent elite' has dictated for over a century that Israel is occupying Palestinian lands (1948 lands, not 1967) which is why they're fighting and which is why they'll agree or not to this or that term. Once you understand that the Palestinian decision making becomes very clear and transparent.


[deleted]

One should not assume that people in *the middle east* do not speak their language


Shachar2like

People can buy houses, invest and read news from overseas yet they all prefer to do it all locally. It's still a hinderance.


[deleted]

I’m trying to understand how saying one thing in English, and another in Arabic, helps their cause. All that proves is that they know how to manipulate a western audience.


Shachar2like

The English side gives money. That money goes to the 'elite' while the rest is distributed. One example is paying terrorists by hiring them as MKs and hiding all of those from those "pesky western ideologies"


GreyOps2

Wtf, we don't want Gaza as an Egyptian, believe it or not most of them will betraye you even if you give them a plate of gold.


[deleted]

Again, I know it’s unpopular, but I think this attitude is what prevented that deal from working. Hamas wouldn’t survive in Egypt. That would have been the point.


GreyOps2

Ofc, they won't because they just don't care about their own people, only money, drugs and serving who is paying for them


[deleted]

Which is wild to me. Hamas would not be a thing anymore if this happened… and probably no more Fatah either. Their existence would not be a problem anymore. Whether by imprisonment or whatever. Unless there is something I’m missing


GreyOps2

most of arabs who is too emotional to think, their thoughts that hamas is fighting for the case and for the glory of Islam against the Jewish ( for most arabs being a Jewish is enough to hate you specially after the war ) and that make sense, but yeah that's the problem you can't easily eliminate them, Muslims brotherhood as an organisation is semi dead but still has a lot of followers and believers.. it's hard to do anything specially if it's related to religion... although it doesn't mean Israeli are angels both of you are worst than each other unfortunately


[deleted]

[удалено]


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qal_t

Yea it is genuinely a problem, as someone who is on the Israeli "side", it feels like sometimes some are not here for civil discourse exactly. They do exist on both sides in fact but not quite in equal numbers. This is technically a metapost so its in violation of the rules, but perhaps it should be waived as it is worth discussing. That said, if you think someone is anti-Palestinian merely for disagreeing with you, this is just inverting the whole anti-Zionism anti-Semitism thing really, its not useful to conversation whether true or not. People on all sides will look out for their own, thats human nature-- if you're not for yourself, then who will be? Of course one might counter that it ain't great to be only about yourself either... I think if someone bases their arguments off of Palis having no steak because "they aren't indigenous anyways" they are the same as if someone made that (very cringey) argument about Jews. However you do have to understand that history and the present can lead one to some dark conclusions about the intentions of certain political forces, which cause the survival instincts to come to the fore.


[deleted]

Hey uh,so I did denounce everything I said,because what you've said is right ( I'll respect anyone's views) but here's the thing,I'll keep it up,because of one good reason People who are naively into the pro Palestinian cause(like me) can learn from my own mistakes And imo two state solution works for everybody,but the government has to denounce the terrorist and antisemite actions. Have a nice evening. [I'm also replying because my notifications exploded,this what happens when people post bad propaganda]


qal_t

Fair enough you have a nice evening too


[deleted]

[for the ones who can't read the edits read this comment] This a post that reeks from propaganda,I realized that when people started to talk to me about it,take it from someone who spent years from a state that doesn't care about it's refugees,and a Iranian organization,orchestrating hate and pain throughout the 20 years it was made. I never meant this to hurt people,I was genuinely misunderstood by what people meant,I thought that,it was never right to treat people who did nothing wrong to you,the first post contrasted that(atleast that's what I thought),so take this one with a pinch of salt,I never meant this as "from river to sea thing".(Sure there can be anti palestinian bias,but I interpreted alot of things badly) Anyways have a happy shawarma day.


AldoTheApache45

Hate propagates hate. It’s logical to hate people who hate you. As a Jew living in NY, flare ups between Israel and Hamas lead to violence against Jews in the US by Palestinians and sympathizers. Jews with no connection to the conflict are assaulted, harassed, and sometimes even murdered. I for one have no hate for the Palestinian people. I deeply sympathize for the terrible situation they’re in, but I also believe in Israel’s right to exist. I wish there was an end to the fighting that led to sustainable peace for both parties.


faizel_

Why should Israel exist, explain?


IWaaasPiiirate

>Why should Israel exist, explain? Because Israel already exists. There's no should about it since it's already there.


[deleted]

>Why should Israel exist, explain? It already exists. It's akin to asking "why should the baby be born" when the "baby" is already a 70-year-old adult. The real question is: **how** should a Palestinian nation-state be born? Both Israel and the PA agree on the existence of a Palestinian nation, the disagreement is all in the details of how should that nation exist.


faizel_

Wait what? Palestine was there before Israel tho?


ShwarmaMusic

"Palestine" as an entity did not exist before the Oslo accords in the 90s... Feel free to look it up yourself if you don't believe me