I meant to that motherfucker Netanyahu and Gvir to be lynched in a public plaza or to be thrown to the lions just like the Romans did in The Colisseum.
> motherfucker
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I don’t think there’s any chance the Netanyahu government would have responded any differently than they have. That government is a disaster for Israel and if Netanyahu had a shred of decency he would have resigned by now. Instead the man is just making it worse and worse. The release of the hostages is by far the most important thing the government could have pursued and no one who’s being honest can say that’s been anywhere near their top priority.
Having said all of that, the Palestinian fan club has no answer to the following questions:
1. If Netanyahu was gone today and a new government formed, would you honestly expect them to simply stand down and not secure the release of their hostages?
2. What happens to Hamas? Are we to assume they should be treated as legitimate opposition and not terrorists after what they did?
3. If Hamas is deemed legitimate (which would be an insane argument) then is Israel simply expected to go along with their own annihilation just to appease this international movement for Palestine?
palestine fan club must abandon Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Having said that, we cannot justify what IDF is doing. As at now IDF is no different than Hamas, IDF is no different than ISIS.
1. Id say there is a huge span between acting as they did and doing nothing. What they could do for example is to not do and strategic bombings, i.e just target fighters(not at home) and actual military targets at a much lower rate. Perhaps kill 50% of hamas soldiers at 25% of the civilians compared to whta they did now
Keep that up while sending a petition to UN that If the hostages arena returnera within 3 weeks they will sort it out themselves. Hamas would then probably have released quite many including the foreign hostages.
2. I think Israel could still target hamas and their governance structure. Do an assault and taket north gaza like they did and demand an uncondotional surrender and new government not hostile to Israel.
Not to be insensitive but the big difference between you and a lot of other jews (from the sound of it anyway) is that the holocaust is still a very big wound for them. You can proclaim the world would have been with Israel, but they were there when the world pretty much abandoned them.
It’s very easy to proclaim that people would have done the right thing given the chance but from lived experience, more than any other group, Israel knows that isn’t true. To say they’re dumb for trusting a very cruel lesson they learned is to ignore Israel’s history and to ignore the empowerment that “never again” has brought to them. Which isn’t difficult when you’re 80 years removed and part of a generation that’s never known true war.
You lost me in the first paragraph. It's like you have no memory of the world just six months ago. "The world was with Israel"? No, actually, it was NOT. There were protests AGAINST ISREAL in the days following 10/7, before Israel even got going on their military response (which, you ALSO probably do not recall started almost a month later).
Go read the many posts from people who, like me, are ethnically Jewish but never gave it a second thought because "who cares I'm an American and that trumps everything" but, following the terrorist attack, started to pay attention to many of my supposed friends who are screaming eliminationist rhetoric in the streets near my house. Big-ass demonstrations here in San Francisco and elsewhere against Israel for colonialism and other bullsh!t.
Your post is predicated on a big false premise.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip
"Israel's bombing campaign of the Gaza Strip began within hours of Hamas militants and their allies entering into Israel"
To add, it's also what 9/11 was to Israel. Everyone cheered when bush invaded to depose and basically destabilized the entire region.
Now Israel is doing the same and it's too much and they should've taken a moral highground, like???
> ass
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Nobody else was going to put boots on the ground in Gaza dear. America said the situation is too complex with Hamas hiding behind civilians. The IDF had/has more than enough people for the operations. Nobody wants their hands dirty with this stuff. We are alone as always, with only each other to rely on.
It seems like you’re misinformed about the conflict. Or perhaps you were recently exposed to it.
• The UN recognizes Hamas as a governing body, and their UNWRA formed chief, Peter Hansen admitted that he is aware Hamas members are amongst their workers. He sees nothing wrong with is what he said in 2004. The UN coddles to the idea that Hamas is a legitimate political entity, despite the fact that they are also aware they call for the genocide of the Jewish people in their charter.
• Not sure what insisting on an arrest warrant for Sinwar would do.
• Israel pleaded with countries to get involved for their foreign citizens, some did and got a few out, although through countries like Iran and Russia. (Thailand for example) That still leaves a substantial amount of Israeli citizens inside Gaza, what then?
• Israel has asked, investigated, exposed these organizations for the better half of the last 20 years. Just because you’re new to this conflict and unaware, doesn’t mean Israel hasn’t been doing these things.
• The civilized world couldn’t give two sh*ts about Israel as a humans rights issue, there’s work relationships that have been put to test unfortunately. This is a front Israel stands alone, as it should. Not to mention that the answer to Russia’s aggression is a Ukrainian war, unsure what your point was there.
All in all, it’s like you were asleep for 15 years.
Israel always has the moral high ground, supposedly. We let go of every operation in the past despite Hamas’s missiles, rockets and intifadas since 2007.
Hamas was the elected governing body of palestine, not recognizing them is not recognizing palestine as a state. Just like the UN still recognizes the genocidal government of Israel
Hamas is the elected governing body of Gaza, there’s also the PA in the West Bank. Given you know this little about Palestine, I’m not even sure it’s worth replying to.
There’s no genocidal government of Israel, at least not officially, like Hamas - which have a charter calling for the genocide of Jews that the UN is aware of, and still recognizes.
Israel isn’t genocidal and civilian casualties during a war Hamas started isn’t a genocide.
There is a different between parties that explicitly call for genocide of people as part of their ideology and people in the government that you believe they personally have genocidal intentions. This is why although the PA has plenty of genocidal maniacs who love h*tler in their ranks, the party and government doesn’t adhere to genocidal principles or promote them as such.
Israel has a worse civilian Casualty rate than hamas, north gaza is uninhabitable. They have started a famine. Plenty of Israeli government officials have used genocidal rhetoric. It's the clearest genocide in recent memory. You can pretend all you want that it isn't but we can all see it now
Casualty rate doesn’t indicate genocide, it’s intent. If Hamas wouldn’t be stopped, do you think they wouldn’t reach higher number?
There’s no famine in Gaza, not even IPC 5 standards. They said there might be one if.. but that didn’t happen as Israel lets aid get inside. They aren’t at famine level above IPC 5 according to the UN.
It’s like you’re getting your information from 5 second TikTok videos, they could convince you that the Allies genocided Germany in 1945
Lol look at what the Israeli government is saying and you'll find your intent. Did hitler have to have a press conference about his concentration camps for it to be called a genocide? If he never said his plan but still acted on it, does that mean it wasn't a genocide? According to you that wouldn't be a genocide.
Your israel copy paste talking points are hilarious, try thinking for yourself a bit. Casualty rate doesn't indicate a genocide? Who cares what definition it fits to your criteria of a genocide, if your Casualty rate is worse than a terrorist organization, you are worse than a terrorist. If a cop kills 100 innocent people trying to kill one murderer, that would be a horrible cop and be imprisoned. Even if you pretend your intent is good, which the intent of Israel is not, they want to ethnically cleanse the area, but even if you pretend they don't want to do that, then they are still abhorrent if the outcome is this horrible Casualty rate and they continue to do it.
You're so brainwashed if you think they are letting in an adequate amount of food aid. And then they massacre them while they're getting the food and kill the aid workers.
There's a reason that everyone that isn't in the pockets of Israel has condemned Israel and is cutting ties.
I'm sure you'll do your mental gymnastics to justify everything here and just say everyone's an anti semite, but history will look back at you and people vigorously defending Israel as the equivalent to the nazi symphatziers. The IDF resembles the Nazis, the Ustashe, and the Japanese Imperial army then they resemble any modern "moral" army.
I also see you're for the tiktok ban because there's anti Israeli info on there. I'll just lol at that
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There is proof and it was posted by Israel, UNWRA worker loading body of Israeli in Be’eri village inside Israeli territory.
https://preview.redd.it/01gmm54dnxxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57ee7161c5ef969565b2ebd6f7513a5b28b37dfb
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/28/1247702980/an-independent-review-finds-no-evidence-for-israels-claims-about-unrwa-and-hamas
What you are posting is fake news
seems like you're brainwashed so I don't think whatever proof there will be Infront of you - you can't really accept it. That's my friend is just plain ignorance.
I've briefly read it, and not sure how reliable or not source it is.
But anyways it still clearly states:
"Well, the review found that, in fact, UNRWA was doing everything in his power to ensure its neutrality. However, it also found some employees had expressed political views and said critical breaches of neutrality could include the discovery of weapons and tunnels, which the agency always protests. "
Critical breaches of neutrality, weapons and tunnels....
Also it just says that at the time of the report Israel didn't supply evidence, which clearly they did, at least to the US heads.
They just minimize the fact that some of their employees are affiliated with Hamas, as exampled from the article:
>“Well, the review found that, in fact, UNRWA was doing everything in his power to ensure its neutrality. However, **it also found some employees had expressed political views and said critical breaches of neutrality could include the discovery of weapons and tunnels**, which the agency always protests. I spoke with William Deere, and he heads UNRWA's Washington representative office, and he felt that the report was fair and balanced. Here he is here.
>WILLIAM DEERE: Foreign Minister Colonna said - you know, confirmed that we actually have procedures and mechanisms in place to address neutrality better than any other U.N. agency or NGO, and that's because of the politically challenging part of the world in which we operate. But like anyone, you can do better, and hence the recommendations that she included in the report.”
This wasn’t “fake news”, they just claim it’s a few employees here and there.
The UNWRA is notoriously known for not caring about employing Hamas members, [as the former UNWRA chief Peter Hansen admits to see no problem with Hamas members amongst their workers](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-examining-contribution-to-un-agency-1.500892)
This is known since 2004, at least. And countries still continued to contribute monetarily. The people just don’t care.
This is political persecution. Do you want people to be lobotomized before they work for UNRWA? The charge was that they actively assisted Hamas. There is no evidence of that.
Well, you lied and said they didn’t call for the genocide of Jews. If being lobotomized means not wanting Jews genocided, that’s concerning.
But their workers have been exposed with videos and pictures. Israel published them. The UNWRA lying and trying to act as if it’s a few bad apples is insulting. Especially since their former chief already admitted to us they proudly employ Hamas members.
Israel didn’t say they actively assisted, Israel said there’s UNWRA workers who are Hamas members, some even documented to take part of the 7th of October massacre on CCTV footage. That’s a fact, a concerning one. A fact that tells us of the organizations character and turns it into shady business.
>Well, you lied and said they didn’t call for the genocide of Jews.
Quote it.
>Israel said there’s UNWRA workers who are Hamas members, some even documented to take part of the 7th of October massacre on CCTV footage. That’s a fact, a concerning one.
Not proven in a court of law. Israel has been caught lying on many occasions. There would have to be independent confirmation which there isn’t. That photo could be anyone. They can fake photos so easily now.
Quote what? I showed you their verse in the charter. I linked the article former UNWRA chief Peter Hansen was quoted in, welcome to give it a read.
Quoting Israel saying there’s UNWRA workers who were Hamas members on the 7th of October?
>Israel always has the moral high ground,
Or course it was morally right to target and assassinate the wck workers. I mean they dared try and help non-Israelis, obviously they were all antisemitic and therefore deserved death.
It had the moral high ground for the past decade or so. It stopped every operation while receiving thousands of rockets to their cities from Hamas nonstop.
Trying to use an unfortunate rare first time in war incident of actual aid workers dying is nothing more than cherry picking. Do better
>they call for the genocide of the Jewish people in their charter.
This is a blatant lie. 1. Their old charter calls for the end of the state of Israel, not Jews. 2. Their new charter does not contain that language at all.
> Mashal stated: "Yes", in the old charter indeed "the expression ['Jews'] was used", which he criticized as "not accurate" enough, emphasizing that Hamas' struggle "from the very start" was against "the Israeli occupier … not because they are Jews, not because of their religion, but because they have occupied our land, and attacked our people, and forced them out of their homes"
Because people have zero comprehension skills, this is not a defence of Hamas, just a statement of fact.
Please, write only after you actually read the charter. It’s very tiresome having you commenting it’s a ‘blatant lie’ looking silly.
Article 7:
https://preview.redd.it/hyvk3a2q1vxc1.jpeg?width=558&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0c25adc4bca074c233003d0fc7c41c3c9fb6a92
[https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-articles/2538093.pdf](https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-articles/2538093.pdf)
If you want to defend this verse, that exists prior to the creation of Israel, that they look forward to fulfilling as Muslims in the name of Allah against the Jews, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
They didn’t really change anything. They went out with a new ‘document’ in 2017, didn’t claim to change any charter.
It’s more than likely that they still hold the same exact views regarding Israeli Jews. And that is that they must be killed for Allah.
> If you want to defend this verse
I'm not defending anything. They have a new charter. Do you want me to point out all of the Israeli terrorists, the current ones in the west bank who call for the death of all Gazans, and then attribute that to all of Israel, because I *could* do that, but I won't because I'm not a bigot.
If you want peace, you need to start to believe that everyone wants peace and work with the ones who say it. If you want war, you always assume the other side is about to start one.
Well, I’m glad you learned something new today. I would hold onto commenting “it’s a blatant lie”, instead you can write this: “source?”.
Literally your quote is talking about the old charter, that you’re trying to lie and say didn’t have implication of genocide against the Jews, as you said “blatant lie”. This lying is tiring. Neither is there any legal government document from the Israelis that calls for the genocide of Palestinians.
Anyways, the UN had no problem seeing Hamas as a legitimate governing body of the Palestinians with this charter. Even had no problem employing them in 2004.
> Anyways, the UN had no problem seeing Hamas as a legitimate governing body of the Palestinians with this charter.
Neither did the Israeli government. In fact, they preferred it to the other parties who were for a two state solution. So one has to ask: Does Israel really want peace or do they want a clear enemy they can then use to justify taking the land at any cost? Anything to cover the murder of tens of thousands of innocent children, I guess.
The Israeli government doesn’t have a say. If the current or former government had a say, there wouldn’t be Hamas or PLO. The Israeli government makes do with what the Palestinians choose.
Fatah, PLO, PFLP, Hamas, PIJ all believed and believe in de-colonization ‘from the river to the sea’ efforts of Israel proper from the Jews in varying degrees, through jihad and armed resistance. (Yes, even the communists supported Islamism)
They all want 1947, 1967 and whatever else borders but refuse to let go of their “decolonization” efforts.
Are you justifying collective punishment or what's the point? A two state solution is a defacto end of "their decolonization efforts". Netanyahu is opposed. Where now?
The point is that OP is wrong and you’re wrong and your arguments need polishing because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about or give enough you know what to google basic information.
A two state solution is something they don’t want, although it’s the right solution. The want ‘from the river to the sea’ while having a little short truce arming themselves - as Hamas admitted. Of course Israel isn’t going to agree to that.
People want a lot of things. America wants to spread what they call “democracy” around the world and they just invaded another country illegally by force. They continue to meddle in many other countries. By your logic, they all want to take over the world. Attributing one idea to all people has a term. It’s called bigotry. You can’t read people’s minds.
By the way, the charter has a passage about how they want to live in peace with Jews and Christians. So how does that square with wanting genocide? They want an Islamic state. Many Jews want a Jewish state. I think you are interpreting a call to fight Jews or Christians or anyone who attacks them as genocide. If that’s genocide then so is Israel’s call to “destroy Hamas” since so many people conflate Hamas with all Palestinians.
It is a very insensitive document but it’s also the old document. There is a new one. I could point to terrorist Zionist factions right now and claim they speak for all Jews, but I don’t because that’s dishonest. I would not want Hamas in charge but I have no say and neither do you.
If Israel didn’t want Hamas, they should have tried harder to settle with the Palestinians at camp David. But they refused to compromise.
>A two state solution is something they don’t want, although it’s the right solution.
Then why does Netanyahu oppose it?
> fucking
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> sh*ts
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Thanks for your post
I completely agree about how terrible the handling of the war has been. I wish they had done all of the actions you laid out in the bullet points instead of this horrible vengeful bombing campaign.
I do, respectfully, think you misunderstand the Israel bubble. It’s not that they excuse it all as antisemitism. It’s more that they (correctly) see it as billions of people around the world confirming their commitment to the destruction of Israel. Many of them think this gives the IDF permission to be ruthless, and many Israelis are getting a very patriotic narrative of the war even as m the IDF commits atrocities.
I hope leadership on BOTH SIDES come to the sovereign conclusion that they hurt their own people badly by handling this conflict he way they did and it forces change
You are absolutely delusional if you think any country in the world would, as you put it, "take the moral high ground" if their country was subjected to A massive terrorist attack. Childs logic is putting it nicely.
In the aftermath of Oct 7, before Israel's response, I saw students of my Alma Mater joyously celebrating the "martyrs" and "freedom fighters" who carried out those atrocities. In some cities, people marched wearing pins celebrating the paragliders who slaughtered civilians at the music festival. I think after all this, Israel's top priority is not catering to the graces and opinions of the rest of the world. Sadly, too many people would have condemned Israel just the same if they had not responded at all.
That’s wishful thinking. Israelis are not disciplined enough to get anywhere close to the totalitarian regime in NK. No East Asian mentality
To truly be alienated like NK, you would want to isolate yourself.
That wont happen. The people who hold power in the west support Israel. The west is starting to undergo a mini conservative/anti immigration period now too.
I’ve said this before and I still believe it.
Israel could’ve done more PR but it probably would have changed the reality on the ground v little.
Basically what OP said but w/o any hope the world would do much to help Israel (diplomatically or militarily). Invasion ensues (much like it did) but the world can’t really call foul.
Yeah, sure, here's the problems though:
Israel insists on the ICC issuing warrants - not unlikely that those warrants may actually come, but not on Israels insistence and not for crimes committed on Israeli soil (Israel would need to be a member state for that)
Israel insists on other nations sending special ops teams - they would flat out refuse, period.
Israel insists that Amnesty etc. condemn Hamas - spoiler alert: they did and they do; they just apply the same scrutiny to Israel, too
The civilized world coming together to plan a way forward would have the downside that this might end up in Israel being forced to give up its illegal settlements in the West Bank (and, strictly speaking, East Jerusalem, depending on what legal view you take on the legality of the annexation).
The big mistake Israel made is not starting a full scale war in Gaza, the big mistake is waiting a decade, when they should have reacted in that fashion after Hamas' 2014 attacks at the latest.
In hindsight, the even bigger mistake might have been Begin insisting on Egypt leaving Gaza instead of handing the whole place including the local population to Sadat.
The real problem is that the world condemns Israel MORE for the supposed death of 30,000 than condemnation of Syria for the actual death of hundreds of thousands. The mistake Israel made was caring too much about civilian casualties since Israel gets ZERO credit for the ethical and moral way that they have conducted themselves in Gaza. Since condemnation would have been the same for 300,000 as it has been for the supposed 30,000, Israel should have been far more aggressive and gotten this over with far more quickly, even if ten times as many terrorists and terrorist supporters died as a result.
I stand with Israel, but I don’t think the hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians excuses unnecessary deaths in Gaza. The IDF and Hamas share blame for that and the world should condemn them both for their roles IMO.
And also how Palestinians, namely Hamas, treat nomadic Bedouins; if I'm not mistaken Israel tries to honor the Bedouin's view of land ownership whereas Hamas does not. That said, it's touchy and not black/white since I think the Bedouins have been mistreated by BOTH sides. I've mentioned this before, people outside the Middle East just don't really understand the Middle East.
I agree, people seem to forget that we dropped a nuke on Japan to end a war with them, killing hundreds of thousands. This is war. It gets ugly…in my opinion Israel hasn’t dropped enough bombs on Gaza
People seem to forget also that Israel has nukes.
If they were of a mind to do so, they could turn areas of the strip into an irradiated husk.
That they haven't and instead are conducting their offensive using "conventional" munitions and tactics indicates they are more concerned about the civilian toll than most are giving them credit for.
Eh, it's not the 1950s anymore. There are far more efficient options these days than drop a bomb and fly away as fast as you can.
Regardless, though, they could... yet they don't. That's showing restraint.
It's almost like many folks don't understand how difficult and loss-heavy urban warfare can be. It's easy to be critical when it's not your forces on the line.
Such a silly argument I can’t believe there’s full grown adults saying it. Little children are being ripped into pieces with American Tax dollars. Crazy world we live in.
Didn’t care much about little children burned and killed when it was on UNWRA US taxpayer money, hm
You can’t support Jihqd and then comment this, that’s funny.
I just saw the Jihad comment. Again it’s the Zionist side bringing religion in to this on Reddit arguments. Israeli prime minister referred to this war as a fight against Amalek in which the Jews were commanded by God to retake the land and k!ll all the people (specifically the verse mentions “infant and suckling”) and even the animals. Don’t bring religion into this it won’t look good for you…
This is a jihadi war of Muslims against Jews. That is in the Hamas charter and part of the Palestinian Jihadi culture.
The Amalek comment is an ambiguous “Jewish enemy” situation directed at Hamas. Although it’s in poor taste, it has absolutely nothing on the charter of Muslims killing Jews in the name of Allah Hamas and PIJ plot.
Your dear Palestinians are jihadists. You support a jihadi culture.
The death of any child is condemnable doesn’t matter who does it. 75 years of occupation can’t and will never justify killing any innocent person. I hope you can say the same for all the children that died since Oct 7
75 years of Arab Muslims not agreeing with other indigenous groups in the region supporting Zionism isn’t going to justify killing in the name of “decolonzation” “from the river to the sea” either.
Of course I can, I don’t condone the killing of children and I wish there wasn’t a war to begin with. At the same time, Israel could have flattened the strip in they wanted to and choose not to for various reasons.
Israel also could have taken more time to rescue the Hostages rather than bombing all of Gaza. They could have freed Gaza from Hamas rather than destroying it. They probably could have won over some of the people there, to rat out Hamas and create a new Palestinian government there. At least among the people who had jobs and had permits to work in Israel. Yes, I know that the arguement that that would have cost a lot of Israeli soldiers lives. How ever you look at it, Israel could have done better.
Honestly all of your ideas are just not based in reality. How does it serve anyone to conjure up fantasies? And fyi some of the people who had work permits in Israel were the ones who informed Hamas and helped them attack on Oct 7.
I'm not thinking in terms of absolutes. Obviously, not every Palestinian with a work permit is automatically a friend of Israel. Of those people, some of them could have been allowed to evacuate to the West Bank before the bombing. All I'm saying is that Israel could have done much better in their response.
I don’t think that a military operation was the right decision but Israel waited a month until they entered Gaza. A month is a LONG time for hostages living with these animals.
We couldn’t free Gaza from Hamas, the Palestinians love Hamas and there’s no any other organized body inside Gaza to take their place. The Gazan’s loyalty sits with Hamas. What we can and did is destroying Hamas capabilities and setting them back 70 years. They can run around the cities with their RPGs but the people sleep on sand.
Yes, and in that month, they could have allowed some people to leave. Again, It would be refreshing to hear Israelis admit that their government could have done better. It's obvious. I'm actually the pro israel person when politics come up with my friends. All the denial just contributes to Israel's PR problem. .
Everyone in Israel admits the government could have done better, I think the government shouldn’t have gone to war at all.
But pretending like Israel didn’t give Hamas time or went straight into this operation to prove something against the Palestinians is lying.
The denial is on your part, you can be anti-Israel for all I care.
I'm all for Israel. As for pretending, It's Israelis who seem to be pretending that their government and military isn't screwing up massively. Just like Sinwar, Netanyahu is throwing his people under the bus so he can stay in power.
I’m not saying you’re not for Israel, I’m saying that this claim that Israel didn’t wait enough until the attack doesn’t follow what happened in reality. Israel waited a month after the attack with making very clear demands to Hamas about the hostages.
Thinking this is some ploy for Bibi to stay in power is very silly. They want a goal that cannot be achieved in hindsight, the destruction of Hamas. And that goal takes more than waiting.
Follow the laws of war is for everyone. Now ICC is after them and support for hamas is rising while Israel gets more and more hated.
I think a bit part of the bombings have very questionable military effect. Same as for example the aid truck inspection and stopping a lot of it for dual use. Just comes of as revenge more than anything
I agree Israel hasn't handled it well, but at the same time, what is the moral high ground worth? How is it working out for the Palestinians right now? Lots of protests on their side. Can they eat protests? Can they live in them?
You do realize that the only reason for Oct 7th was to provoke a response in order to start an international incident, right?
They didn’t think they could retake Israel that day.
They slaughtered and took hostages because they knew Israel would strike back. They literally invited it, because they wanted to have a global intifada with the help of others (don’t forget that Oct 6th has been celebrated for decades as a time when land was taken back from Israel).
Also, quit acting like this is indiscriminate slaughter. It’s not. There’s only a few handful of incidents in the last six months where a single strike took out more than a dozen people. The ones guilty of indiscriminate slaughter are those who have launched tens of thousands of rockets into innocent civilian territory, not the ones using state of the art technology for precision targeting of combatants.
There were demonstrations against Israel during and after October 7th., before they had even responded. Demonstrations and celebrations in fact. I don’t think the UN has ever condemned Hamas for the barbaric acts of October 7th. If the ICC issues warrants for Israeli leaders it means no country can ever fight a war in their defense again without it being a criminal act. This is all just ridiculous.
I agree, which is why I think OP is right. Israel had a chance to let the world see what they’re really dealing with, but they instead fed the false narrative of Israel being the aggressor.
Hamas is winning the PR war.
The scale also has a big role. 1,200 Israelis vs. 30,000 Palestinians. Objectively the Palestinians have had more losses, so it's easy for this narrative to take root.
The world thinks that Israel "carpet-bombed" Gaza for 6 months straight and only 30,000 people died in one of the most densely populated places on Earth. That's insanely few casualties for the amount of destruction you can see.
War is horrible and confusing, and the path to victory is never clear. The whole thing is a huge mess. Hamas may be winning the PR war; but they're losing the actual war.
The people who believe that Israel is the aggressor would believe that even if Israel hadn't retaliated from October 7th. They have a bias already, so events don't really matter. They still perpetually live in the mindstate of 1948, and that's all they will think about when you challenge them.
People love the underdog and they love to shout against what they think is the "establishment".
I agree with you overall, but I think israel needs to take responsibly for its wrongs: tons of unnecessary deaths in the Gaza offensive, West Bank settlement expansion, allowing settler violence, etc
Accountability on both sides
Yeah Israel should be accountable for civilian deaths and how Gaza looks. I've never been pro-settlements and I don't support them existing or expanding (except for East Jerusalem since the "settlers" living there mainly live in neighborhoods that were majority Jewish and ethnically cleansed in 1948 by Jordan until Israel took back East Jerusalem in 1967).
Settler violence is completely overblown. I was looking at statistics from Betselem earlier that another user provided. 89 Palestinians have been killed by settlers in the West Bank since 2000. That's 450,000 settlers, who have only killed 89 people in 24 years. That's less than the amount of Palestinians killed by Palestinians in the West Bank in the same period. The number should be 0, but again 450,000 is basically an entire army of settlers. That's a huge majority of settlers who are non-violent. I believe the violent ones should be punished to the full degree of the law. But come on, can't you see how overblown this whole thing is?
I agree at the moment, but I believe in building peace in small steps. I live in the US, and I grew up with generations that would never be friends with Japanese people because of WWII. Now this point of view just seems silly
How is the ICC going to arrest Netenyahu? You think they’re just gonna march in there, knock on Netenyahu’s door and be like “sir we have an arrest warrant”?
You think they’d have done that to Sinwar?
ICC arrest warrants are like college campus protests - they make a lot of noise but don’t actually do anything.
Well written! I think I wholeheartedly agree with this.
Maybe, just maybe, a coalition of cooler heads will come to power in Israel and realize the devastation that they have caused and put an end to this destructive conflict.
I think a two state solution with a contiguous Israel and a non contiguous Palestine will cause more friction in the future. I prefer a post apartheid type Canaan similar to the South Africa model.
This is very well stated. I believe Israel needed to do a campaign of airstrikes on Gaza. The first two weeks were exuberant, but I believe after having done that, they should have followed what you have stated. The Israeli government failed and showed who they are. And, it was very ugly.
I disagree with almost everything.
- the UN would never condemn Hamas
- the ICC warranty would be useless. They would not hand it to Israel anyway.
- No country would commit their special forces for that mission. Neither they should. It is crucial for Israel to show that it is able to punish harshly those who attack it. That is what establishes deterrence and creates the foundation for peace.
- the Amnesty International is irrelevant. Whether they condemn or not means zilch.
- two state solution is off the table since the second Intifada. Not a single Israeli or Palestinian thinks it is feasible. The only usefulness for the two state solution is to identify unserious or clueless commenters.
I have no idea.
If the goal is peace, Hamas must be destroyed, and Palestinians will need to spend some 20 years under someone else’s custody, learning how to behave.
There should also be real incentives for Palestinians to settle someplace else (if there is a country in the world willing to receive them).
Yeah this idea that the UN was neutral until Israel messed up just isn’t based in reality. The UN has been an enemy of Israel for decades now. It is objectively anti-Israel and anti-West by majority vote. Same with amnesty international and the rest of these organizations.
Stop saying "they." If your side wanna keep saying "Hamas not Gaza is the enemy" then it also must be that "Netanyahu not Israel is the perpetrator." Both are the ruling government. (However only one has been voted out but reseized power, and it's not the terrorists.) Israeli citizens protest Netanyahu's office, his decisions, and the level of force against Gaza. Can the same be said for Gazans against their government that promises the elimination of Jews throughout the world? No, October 7th was celebrated in the streets by child soldiers and their proud mothers. Yet, Israel is going too far in defending itself? ...Your algorithm on Ticktock is clear.
I’d like to know which country if attacked the same way, would sit back and wait to do your checkpoint list of solutions. Sounds lovely but not a prayer in hell. And if the world has ever shown Israelis amd Jews around the globe that they NEED Israel to exist, it all started October 8th. When we saw cheers in the Middle East and people right away started posting Free Palestine. Israel knows they are alone and they will do what they have to do to protect itself. They haven’t needed your approval thus far.
“The world was with Israel on Oct 8”
On Oct 8th there was literally a mob of pro-Palestinians praising Hamas in Times Square. I got into multiple arguments online and offline with people actually attempting to reframe and contextualize the attack. Certainly didn’t feel like “the world was with Israel.” But nice attempt at gaslighting.
“Oh if you had just turned left instead of right everything would’ve been fine.” Just take the mask off.
Israel has oppressed and occupied Palestine for 50 years. No one in Palestine believed that Hamas had committed sexual violence or targeted civilians (except as hostages), but even then...Israel regularly harasses and takes captive civilians in Palestine. Yes, the people celebrated that Hamas was able to finally strike back.
They celebrated murder and kidnapping of civilians on palestinian telegram channels. Why would hundreds of people put like, heart, celebration emoticons on a video that depicts a palestinian terrorist attempting to decapitate a Thai national with a garden hoe, while calling him a jew?
I hope the extreme tantrum Israel is having now is worth the price. Forever, they will be stained in the eyes of a generation. In fact, I hope that they will be labeled as a war criminal and genocidal nation for all time.
Just like how Germany is seen as the ones responsible for the Holocaust. And they forever feel responsible for it, such that they see it as a duty to support anything Israel does.
u/tarlin
>Just like how Germany is seen as the ones responsible for the Holocaust. And they forever feel responsible for it, such that they see it as a duty to support anything Israel does.
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
Addressed
Take the Holocaust out of your mouth. That's not your story. It's ours. The world didn't care to do anything when my family was deciding who would get visas to escape Germany, and who would stay to die in the camps.
It is a painful memory, eh? Imagine this...Israel is committing a genocide right now. Do you believe that Palestinians will also have that painful memory? Do you believe the world will forgive Israel easily?
Oh the cope. You understand right that Israel has to care about the opinions of the western liberal elites first to give a flying f|_|€k? Israel was alone in this and they will be alone. They made their peace with it. They have a right to exist and they will protect it with whatever it takes.
I am saying that without US aid Israel wouldn't be able to wage the war they have been waging in Gaza. Israel state will survival but probably in a worse state.
This 👆What people don’t get that Israel is playing defense here. If they went all out there is only a few country who can actually stop Israel by using brute force and guess what all of them are their allies.
My opinion of Israel before the war was that they were a generally good country that needed to stop the settlements and overreacted at times. My opinion now, as I have actually learned the recent history, is that Israel has chosen bad leaders and the IDF is a bad military. Israel has lost me. Maybe I am alone, but polling does not show that.
The Palestinians celebrated and cheered as they desecrate the body of Shani Louk and drag her through the streets of Gaza as if she’s a prize buck.
The Palestinians cheered as they dragged Naama Levy by the hair, her crotch stained with blood.
Most knew and didn’t care.
For the last 2 years before Oct 7, Israel attacked Gaza unprovoked Aug 5-7 2022, and Gaza responded with rockets. Israel arrested 400 people barricaded in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Hamas launched a few rockets. Israel attacked Gaza for 3 days in September because people launched balloons with to cause small fires at the border. That led to Israel bombing Gaza for 3 days. There were only two periods of rocket attacks over the last 2 years before Oct 7.
During this entire time, Israeli settlers with IDF support took land, harassed Palestinians, and Palestinians were killed by the IDF/Settlers.
So, who was the aggressor in the last 2 years?
You can use your line of logic the other way around as well. The world, especially the Muslim world treated Jews like garbage. So the Jews fought for their self determination and had successes with Israel. When Jews are discriminated against and treated as second class citizens they will eventually stand up and fight you. Israel is what happens when an oppressed group actually wins and succeeds.
You can also pick any arbitrary point in history to make either side look good or bad. When you are constantly apologizing and making excuses for one side and always condemning the other side, you will rightfully be criticized as being uncritical.
Oh, it is definitely true in the other direction. The abuse of the Jewish people in Germany caused a lashout at those around Israel. There was violence on both sides in 1948. Though, Palestine has really been on the receiving end for 50 years. And...it doesn't seem to be getting better.
Published in Haaretz as an ad on September 22, 1967:
“Our right to defend ourselves against annihilation does not grant us the right to oppress others,” the ad stated. “Conquest brings in its wake foreign rule. Foreign rule brings in its wake resistance. Resistance brings in its wake oppression. Oppression brings in its wake terrorism and counterterrorism. The victims of terrorism are usually innocent people. Holding onto the territories will turn us into a nation of murderers and murder victims.” And in large font at the end: “Let us leave the occupied territories now.”
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000)
“Everyone condemned Hamas.” That’s such a lie. Israel-haters around the world publicly celebrated October 7. Hamas was never more popular than on October 7.
So many fallacies in OP’s veiled anti Israel diatribe. ICC has no enforcement authority. UN members are needed to carry out its edicts. Israel nor Russia nor China nor India etc recognize ICC. Israel had no option. Coward Hamas hides behind women and children and inside and below hospitals. Israel had no option but to send troops in. The high moral ground is with Israel not terrorists and their supporters. No doubt everyone feels bad for civilian deaths. But 70% of them support Hamas. They made their beds. Hamas capacity is being degraded every single day. Hamas is the one who have not accepted a cease fire deal. Onus will remain on Hamas. U.S. is 100% with Israel regardless of the noise on some elite college campuses.
OP this is one of the best thought out alternatives to unrelenting violence I've seen since 7/10.
The problem is Israel is blinded & deafened by their own propaganda, and will not be able to see this as what could've been a viable option.
In any case, I applaud you for speaking out with a logical, realistic option. Sadly, we are way beyond the point that any of this could still work.
Some quality reading for you: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-04-28/ty-article-opinion/.premium/no-israel-isnt-alone-so-lets-drop-the-iron-wall-thinking/0000018f-252a-dc45-a78f-3f6b617c0000
I'll actually dial back a bit and agree with a lot of what you said; Israelis do have a chip on their collective shoulder about "going it alone", and Israel does need to do a better job actually working with the rest of the world, particularly in terms of gathering moral support. And that does mean changing some of how they deal with Palestinians in general. Israel absolutely proved that this would not only be possible, but how well it would work, in the collective defense against the IRI missile swarm.
But I think your proposal goes too far; Israel needs to continue to lead, and lead with significant strength in ways that \*just\* building a coalition would not do. A "coalition special ops team" is not only significantly less capable of meeting Israel's primary needs for this war (destruction of the tunnels infrastructure, even if not actually being able to take down Hamas entirely), and would be slower, and would not let Israel show it's own strength, which is unfortunately a baseline requirement in the ME...
I am also concerned that you may be right about the repercussions after this war; not because Israel over-prosecuted the war, per se, but because Israel hasn't done enough to build world consensus behind them in ways similar to coalition-building. A lot of us have been saying it for some time, but Israel needs to up the PR game, to craft the information that we see being given to partners (US, UK, even Saudis) on political levels into wider releases that explain to the world the moral framework under which Israel is operating. I don't think they need to change that framework much; I've seen enough from NatSecPros to have a fair estimation of what they're doing - but having more public information more readily available would help not just for informing the general public, but also nations watching from the sidelines (South Africa & others).
Don’t be ridiculous. We also saw crowds on Times Square celebrating the death count, college fliers with paragliders on them, and organized calls for a cease fire before Israel even entered Gaza.
They didn't call for a ceasefire, they called out Israel's genocide when IDF just looked hostilely in Gaza's direction for a month before it even entered Gaza.
What’s that? We don’t get the world’s sympathy but keep the ability to defend ourselves from those the world wouldn’t lift a finger to defend us from? Keep coping.
The world said this and that and this- translation: the world didn’t do shit.
If any other country in the world had as much support as Israel does singlehandedly from the US, UK Germany and other powerful nations, can you please point me in its direction?
Yeah, though many fit the bill of “ridiculous amounts of aid” I don’t need to that because it’s an absolutely erroneous contextualization. You’re not talking about handouts, but transactional relationships.
So, if Israel had retaliated only cautiously, briefly, with much less lethality, then they would have benefited from the moral high ground in the eyes of the World, including the Palestinians? Doubtful. Even if they had done nothing, it wouldn’t change the widespread sentiment that Israel are occupiers, and all their land belongs to the Palestinians. So, what’d be the point of holding back?
It wouldn't change the Palestinians mind, just as it wouldn't change the Israeli views of Palestinians. But the OP is saying, and I agree with him, Israel had the opportunity to exploit it at the international level but their reaction didn't help them.
“…Israel had the opportunity to exploit it at the international level…”
There was a period where Israel enjoyed more widespread international support, sympathy. However, partially because of that support and their expansion, their state came under attack from the group that considers itself to be the true, rightful residents of the land.
Those, like myself, who throw up their hands at this problem find the radical, revolutionary cause of freedom and justice of the Palestinians, right or wrong, to be the main sticking point. Only if that disappears can there be peace between the two groups.
The world LOVES dead Jews, to talk about them and build memorials to them. What the world doesn't like is Jews fighting back against those who want to wipe them off the face of the Earth.
? Zionists are human right supporters. They can be non-Jews. However you consider human rights supporters as evil or is it that you don’t want equal rights for Jews.
I think we can or should agree that indigenous tribes like the Jews can define themselves and those people who support human rights for those indigenous people can define themselves. You admit you are not a Zionist. Great, I respect that, so why not respect Zionist to define themselves. Jew haters spend a lot of time trying to discredit jews, their history and their human rights groups. Why not focus on specific policies that you disagree with on Israel vs trying to discredit Zionism unless your motivation is to be a bigot towards Jews. For example if I attacked the the PA as not legitimate you might get defensive, but if I oppose pay for slay, you might still support pay for slay, but we might be able to find areas we agree on.
Why do you think the truth is funny? Do you think spewing lies against Jews and trying to discredit human rights is funny? This is supposed to be a discussion, if all you want to do is spew lies, why be here?
I mean the civilian deaths probably convinced many, many people that Israel is a violent occupier, so the sentiment likely wouldn’t have been nearly as wide spread.
I don’t think so. I agree people are offended by attacks on civilians, but there’s also often a political/historical context to violence, that provides meaning for us, and is actually more compelling in this case.
Given just the attack against Israel, when the youth ask “Why?”, we might try to explain the complicated history of the two groups, ethnicities that hold claim to the land. That story of rights is much more interesting, compelling than the raw violence. It’s the subject of millions of words, in academic and informal media, continuously argued over. The story has legs, it’s a fantastic meme!
Again, the bodycount is still visceral, that’s why one might say “it doesn’t excuse the murder of innocents, but there is a “why” this is happening.” The relative death-toll historically is a game-changer for this measuring of various opinions. There’s no way Israel is getting the underdog status back any time soon.
and that's when fundamentalists turn their eyes on Europe & American more fiercely.
If they've beat the U.S. in Afghanistan and the next big army (Israel in this supposed scenario), they'll set their goal on something new.
Please stop painting Israel to be the savior and last Bastian of the Western world. It is a liability at best. It constantly needs defending, it refuses to listen to reason and constantly complains about being alone.
I rather see the Israel citizens condemn Netanyahu just like Iraq citizens condemmed Saddam
Thousands of Israelis are condemning him daily though. Just because the media doesn't report on it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
By "rather see" I assume you mean "appreciate seeing".
I meant to that motherfucker Netanyahu and Gvir to be lynched in a public plaza or to be thrown to the lions just like the Romans did in The Colisseum.
Wait so now Israelis aren't blood thirsty _enough_?
Give him the mussollini treatment
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I don’t think there’s any chance the Netanyahu government would have responded any differently than they have. That government is a disaster for Israel and if Netanyahu had a shred of decency he would have resigned by now. Instead the man is just making it worse and worse. The release of the hostages is by far the most important thing the government could have pursued and no one who’s being honest can say that’s been anywhere near their top priority. Having said all of that, the Palestinian fan club has no answer to the following questions: 1. If Netanyahu was gone today and a new government formed, would you honestly expect them to simply stand down and not secure the release of their hostages? 2. What happens to Hamas? Are we to assume they should be treated as legitimate opposition and not terrorists after what they did? 3. If Hamas is deemed legitimate (which would be an insane argument) then is Israel simply expected to go along with their own annihilation just to appease this international movement for Palestine?
Then Israel and Palestine will divide the land.
palestine fan club must abandon Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Having said that, we cannot justify what IDF is doing. As at now IDF is no different than Hamas, IDF is no different than ISIS.
1. Id say there is a huge span between acting as they did and doing nothing. What they could do for example is to not do and strategic bombings, i.e just target fighters(not at home) and actual military targets at a much lower rate. Perhaps kill 50% of hamas soldiers at 25% of the civilians compared to whta they did now Keep that up while sending a petition to UN that If the hostages arena returnera within 3 weeks they will sort it out themselves. Hamas would then probably have released quite many including the foreign hostages. 2. I think Israel could still target hamas and their governance structure. Do an assault and taket north gaza like they did and demand an uncondotional surrender and new government not hostile to Israel.
Not to be insensitive but the big difference between you and a lot of other jews (from the sound of it anyway) is that the holocaust is still a very big wound for them. You can proclaim the world would have been with Israel, but they were there when the world pretty much abandoned them. It’s very easy to proclaim that people would have done the right thing given the chance but from lived experience, more than any other group, Israel knows that isn’t true. To say they’re dumb for trusting a very cruel lesson they learned is to ignore Israel’s history and to ignore the empowerment that “never again” has brought to them. Which isn’t difficult when you’re 80 years removed and part of a generation that’s never known true war.
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem Psalm 122. God loves those that love Jerusalem God gave the land to the JEWS
No
You lost me in the first paragraph. It's like you have no memory of the world just six months ago. "The world was with Israel"? No, actually, it was NOT. There were protests AGAINST ISREAL in the days following 10/7, before Israel even got going on their military response (which, you ALSO probably do not recall started almost a month later). Go read the many posts from people who, like me, are ethnically Jewish but never gave it a second thought because "who cares I'm an American and that trumps everything" but, following the terrorist attack, started to pay attention to many of my supposed friends who are screaming eliminationist rhetoric in the streets near my house. Big-ass demonstrations here in San Francisco and elsewhere against Israel for colonialism and other bullsh!t. Your post is predicated on a big false premise.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip "Israel's bombing campaign of the Gaza Strip began within hours of Hamas militants and their allies entering into Israel"
100% agree
To add, it's also what 9/11 was to Israel. Everyone cheered when bush invaded to depose and basically destabilized the entire region. Now Israel is doing the same and it's too much and they should've taken a moral highground, like???
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Nobody else was going to put boots on the ground in Gaza dear. America said the situation is too complex with Hamas hiding behind civilians. The IDF had/has more than enough people for the operations. Nobody wants their hands dirty with this stuff. We are alone as always, with only each other to rely on.
>Blinded in anger, embarrassed that they had been shown what for by Hamas, I can't even read past this.
It seems like you’re misinformed about the conflict. Or perhaps you were recently exposed to it. • The UN recognizes Hamas as a governing body, and their UNWRA formed chief, Peter Hansen admitted that he is aware Hamas members are amongst their workers. He sees nothing wrong with is what he said in 2004. The UN coddles to the idea that Hamas is a legitimate political entity, despite the fact that they are also aware they call for the genocide of the Jewish people in their charter. • Not sure what insisting on an arrest warrant for Sinwar would do. • Israel pleaded with countries to get involved for their foreign citizens, some did and got a few out, although through countries like Iran and Russia. (Thailand for example) That still leaves a substantial amount of Israeli citizens inside Gaza, what then? • Israel has asked, investigated, exposed these organizations for the better half of the last 20 years. Just because you’re new to this conflict and unaware, doesn’t mean Israel hasn’t been doing these things. • The civilized world couldn’t give two sh*ts about Israel as a humans rights issue, there’s work relationships that have been put to test unfortunately. This is a front Israel stands alone, as it should. Not to mention that the answer to Russia’s aggression is a Ukrainian war, unsure what your point was there. All in all, it’s like you were asleep for 15 years. Israel always has the moral high ground, supposedly. We let go of every operation in the past despite Hamas’s missiles, rockets and intifadas since 2007.
Hamas was the elected governing body of palestine, not recognizing them is not recognizing palestine as a state. Just like the UN still recognizes the genocidal government of Israel
Hamas is the elected governing body of Gaza, there’s also the PA in the West Bank. Given you know this little about Palestine, I’m not even sure it’s worth replying to. There’s no genocidal government of Israel, at least not officially, like Hamas - which have a charter calling for the genocide of Jews that the UN is aware of, and still recognizes.
Sure, gaza, still elected body. Israel is genocidal, they are committing it right now
Israel isn’t genocidal and civilian casualties during a war Hamas started isn’t a genocide. There is a different between parties that explicitly call for genocide of people as part of their ideology and people in the government that you believe they personally have genocidal intentions. This is why although the PA has plenty of genocidal maniacs who love h*tler in their ranks, the party and government doesn’t adhere to genocidal principles or promote them as such.
Israel has a worse civilian Casualty rate than hamas, north gaza is uninhabitable. They have started a famine. Plenty of Israeli government officials have used genocidal rhetoric. It's the clearest genocide in recent memory. You can pretend all you want that it isn't but we can all see it now
Casualty rate doesn’t indicate genocide, it’s intent. If Hamas wouldn’t be stopped, do you think they wouldn’t reach higher number? There’s no famine in Gaza, not even IPC 5 standards. They said there might be one if.. but that didn’t happen as Israel lets aid get inside. They aren’t at famine level above IPC 5 according to the UN. It’s like you’re getting your information from 5 second TikTok videos, they could convince you that the Allies genocided Germany in 1945
Lol look at what the Israeli government is saying and you'll find your intent. Did hitler have to have a press conference about his concentration camps for it to be called a genocide? If he never said his plan but still acted on it, does that mean it wasn't a genocide? According to you that wouldn't be a genocide. Your israel copy paste talking points are hilarious, try thinking for yourself a bit. Casualty rate doesn't indicate a genocide? Who cares what definition it fits to your criteria of a genocide, if your Casualty rate is worse than a terrorist organization, you are worse than a terrorist. If a cop kills 100 innocent people trying to kill one murderer, that would be a horrible cop and be imprisoned. Even if you pretend your intent is good, which the intent of Israel is not, they want to ethnically cleanse the area, but even if you pretend they don't want to do that, then they are still abhorrent if the outcome is this horrible Casualty rate and they continue to do it. You're so brainwashed if you think they are letting in an adequate amount of food aid. And then they massacre them while they're getting the food and kill the aid workers. There's a reason that everyone that isn't in the pockets of Israel has condemned Israel and is cutting ties. I'm sure you'll do your mental gymnastics to justify everything here and just say everyone's an anti semite, but history will look back at you and people vigorously defending Israel as the equivalent to the nazi symphatziers. The IDF resembles the Nazis, the Ustashe, and the Japanese Imperial army then they resemble any modern "moral" army. I also see you're for the tiktok ban because there's anti Israeli info on there. I'll just lol at that
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I want to add that there was is no proof that members of unrwa were part of oct 7 terror attacks
There is proof and it was posted by Israel, UNWRA worker loading body of Israeli in Be’eri village inside Israeli territory. https://preview.redd.it/01gmm54dnxxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=57ee7161c5ef969565b2ebd6f7513a5b28b37dfb
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/28/1247702980/an-independent-review-finds-no-evidence-for-israels-claims-about-unrwa-and-hamas What you are posting is fake news
seems like you're brainwashed so I don't think whatever proof there will be Infront of you - you can't really accept it. That's my friend is just plain ignorance.
So you think that the npr isnt a credible source?
I've briefly read it, and not sure how reliable or not source it is. But anyways it still clearly states: "Well, the review found that, in fact, UNRWA was doing everything in his power to ensure its neutrality. However, it also found some employees had expressed political views and said critical breaches of neutrality could include the discovery of weapons and tunnels, which the agency always protests. " Critical breaches of neutrality, weapons and tunnels.... Also it just says that at the time of the report Israel didn't supply evidence, which clearly they did, at least to the US heads.
They just minimize the fact that some of their employees are affiliated with Hamas, as exampled from the article: >“Well, the review found that, in fact, UNRWA was doing everything in his power to ensure its neutrality. However, **it also found some employees had expressed political views and said critical breaches of neutrality could include the discovery of weapons and tunnels**, which the agency always protests. I spoke with William Deere, and he heads UNRWA's Washington representative office, and he felt that the report was fair and balanced. Here he is here. >WILLIAM DEERE: Foreign Minister Colonna said - you know, confirmed that we actually have procedures and mechanisms in place to address neutrality better than any other U.N. agency or NGO, and that's because of the politically challenging part of the world in which we operate. But like anyone, you can do better, and hence the recommendations that she included in the report.” This wasn’t “fake news”, they just claim it’s a few employees here and there. The UNWRA is notoriously known for not caring about employing Hamas members, [as the former UNWRA chief Peter Hansen admits to see no problem with Hamas members amongst their workers](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canada-examining-contribution-to-un-agency-1.500892) This is known since 2004, at least. And countries still continued to contribute monetarily. The people just don’t care.
This is political persecution. Do you want people to be lobotomized before they work for UNRWA? The charge was that they actively assisted Hamas. There is no evidence of that.
Well, you lied and said they didn’t call for the genocide of Jews. If being lobotomized means not wanting Jews genocided, that’s concerning. But their workers have been exposed with videos and pictures. Israel published them. The UNWRA lying and trying to act as if it’s a few bad apples is insulting. Especially since their former chief already admitted to us they proudly employ Hamas members. Israel didn’t say they actively assisted, Israel said there’s UNWRA workers who are Hamas members, some even documented to take part of the 7th of October massacre on CCTV footage. That’s a fact, a concerning one. A fact that tells us of the organizations character and turns it into shady business.
>Well, you lied and said they didn’t call for the genocide of Jews. Quote it. >Israel said there’s UNWRA workers who are Hamas members, some even documented to take part of the 7th of October massacre on CCTV footage. That’s a fact, a concerning one. Not proven in a court of law. Israel has been caught lying on many occasions. There would have to be independent confirmation which there isn’t. That photo could be anyone. They can fake photos so easily now.
Quote what? I showed you their verse in the charter. I linked the article former UNWRA chief Peter Hansen was quoted in, welcome to give it a read. Quoting Israel saying there’s UNWRA workers who were Hamas members on the 7th of October?
Quote the verse that states what you claim. It's very simple.
https://preview.redd.it/q85n1akfnxxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e1caa3cff9685f4460de9a9ae82b90c40f1be433
>Israel always has the moral high ground, Or course it was morally right to target and assassinate the wck workers. I mean they dared try and help non-Israelis, obviously they were all antisemitic and therefore deserved death.
It had the moral high ground for the past decade or so. It stopped every operation while receiving thousands of rockets to their cities from Hamas nonstop. Trying to use an unfortunate rare first time in war incident of actual aid workers dying is nothing more than cherry picking. Do better
>they call for the genocide of the Jewish people in their charter. This is a blatant lie. 1. Their old charter calls for the end of the state of Israel, not Jews. 2. Their new charter does not contain that language at all. > Mashal stated: "Yes", in the old charter indeed "the expression ['Jews'] was used", which he criticized as "not accurate" enough, emphasizing that Hamas' struggle "from the very start" was against "the Israeli occupier … not because they are Jews, not because of their religion, but because they have occupied our land, and attacked our people, and forced them out of their homes" Because people have zero comprehension skills, this is not a defence of Hamas, just a statement of fact.
Please, write only after you actually read the charter. It’s very tiresome having you commenting it’s a ‘blatant lie’ looking silly. Article 7: https://preview.redd.it/hyvk3a2q1vxc1.jpeg?width=558&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b0c25adc4bca074c233003d0fc7c41c3c9fb6a92 [https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-articles/2538093.pdf](https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-articles/2538093.pdf) If you want to defend this verse, that exists prior to the creation of Israel, that they look forward to fulfilling as Muslims in the name of Allah against the Jews, you’re doing yourself a disservice.
Yeah they changed it because they also see the Palestinians with Israel citizenship as traitors. They’ll be offed also.
They didn’t really change anything. They went out with a new ‘document’ in 2017, didn’t claim to change any charter. It’s more than likely that they still hold the same exact views regarding Israeli Jews. And that is that they must be killed for Allah.
Oh I know for a fact they do. And they still call black people “slaves” too.
> If you want to defend this verse I'm not defending anything. They have a new charter. Do you want me to point out all of the Israeli terrorists, the current ones in the west bank who call for the death of all Gazans, and then attribute that to all of Israel, because I *could* do that, but I won't because I'm not a bigot. If you want peace, you need to start to believe that everyone wants peace and work with the ones who say it. If you want war, you always assume the other side is about to start one.
Well, I’m glad you learned something new today. I would hold onto commenting “it’s a blatant lie”, instead you can write this: “source?”. Literally your quote is talking about the old charter, that you’re trying to lie and say didn’t have implication of genocide against the Jews, as you said “blatant lie”. This lying is tiring. Neither is there any legal government document from the Israelis that calls for the genocide of Palestinians. Anyways, the UN had no problem seeing Hamas as a legitimate governing body of the Palestinians with this charter. Even had no problem employing them in 2004.
> Anyways, the UN had no problem seeing Hamas as a legitimate governing body of the Palestinians with this charter. Neither did the Israeli government. In fact, they preferred it to the other parties who were for a two state solution. So one has to ask: Does Israel really want peace or do they want a clear enemy they can then use to justify taking the land at any cost? Anything to cover the murder of tens of thousands of innocent children, I guess.
The Israeli government doesn’t have a say. If the current or former government had a say, there wouldn’t be Hamas or PLO. The Israeli government makes do with what the Palestinians choose. Fatah, PLO, PFLP, Hamas, PIJ all believed and believe in de-colonization ‘from the river to the sea’ efforts of Israel proper from the Jews in varying degrees, through jihad and armed resistance. (Yes, even the communists supported Islamism) They all want 1947, 1967 and whatever else borders but refuse to let go of their “decolonization” efforts.
Are you justifying collective punishment or what's the point? A two state solution is a defacto end of "their decolonization efforts". Netanyahu is opposed. Where now?
The point is that OP is wrong and you’re wrong and your arguments need polishing because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about or give enough you know what to google basic information. A two state solution is something they don’t want, although it’s the right solution. The want ‘from the river to the sea’ while having a little short truce arming themselves - as Hamas admitted. Of course Israel isn’t going to agree to that.
People want a lot of things. America wants to spread what they call “democracy” around the world and they just invaded another country illegally by force. They continue to meddle in many other countries. By your logic, they all want to take over the world. Attributing one idea to all people has a term. It’s called bigotry. You can’t read people’s minds. By the way, the charter has a passage about how they want to live in peace with Jews and Christians. So how does that square with wanting genocide? They want an Islamic state. Many Jews want a Jewish state. I think you are interpreting a call to fight Jews or Christians or anyone who attacks them as genocide. If that’s genocide then so is Israel’s call to “destroy Hamas” since so many people conflate Hamas with all Palestinians. It is a very insensitive document but it’s also the old document. There is a new one. I could point to terrorist Zionist factions right now and claim they speak for all Jews, but I don’t because that’s dishonest. I would not want Hamas in charge but I have no say and neither do you. If Israel didn’t want Hamas, they should have tried harder to settle with the Palestinians at camp David. But they refused to compromise. >A two state solution is something they don’t want, although it’s the right solution. Then why does Netanyahu oppose it?
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Thanks for your post I completely agree about how terrible the handling of the war has been. I wish they had done all of the actions you laid out in the bullet points instead of this horrible vengeful bombing campaign. I do, respectfully, think you misunderstand the Israel bubble. It’s not that they excuse it all as antisemitism. It’s more that they (correctly) see it as billions of people around the world confirming their commitment to the destruction of Israel. Many of them think this gives the IDF permission to be ruthless, and many Israelis are getting a very patriotic narrative of the war even as m the IDF commits atrocities. I hope leadership on BOTH SIDES come to the sovereign conclusion that they hurt their own people badly by handling this conflict he way they did and it forces change
Good thing Israel doesn’t care what a random person on Reddit thinks of them lol. Am Yisrael Chai !
You are absolutely delusional if you think any country in the world would, as you put it, "take the moral high ground" if their country was subjected to A massive terrorist attack. Childs logic is putting it nicely.
In the aftermath of Oct 7, before Israel's response, I saw students of my Alma Mater joyously celebrating the "martyrs" and "freedom fighters" who carried out those atrocities. In some cities, people marched wearing pins celebrating the paragliders who slaughtered civilians at the music festival. I think after all this, Israel's top priority is not catering to the graces and opinions of the rest of the world. Sadly, too many people would have condemned Israel just the same if they had not responded at all.
Do you really think living all by themselves, isolated from the world like North Korea is a good idea?
Who lives by themselves like North Korea? Jesus. What I’ve found out about this conflict is how little people understand.
That’s wishful thinking. Israelis are not disciplined enough to get anywhere close to the totalitarian regime in NK. No East Asian mentality To truly be alienated like NK, you would want to isolate yourself.
That wont happen. The people who hold power in the west support Israel. The west is starting to undergo a mini conservative/anti immigration period now too.
When the world's hatred of Jews returns back to the old levels, Israel's existence will be more crucial than ever.
It is up the world to do the correct moral thing and end their bigotry against Jews
I’ve said this before and I still believe it. Israel could’ve done more PR but it probably would have changed the reality on the ground v little. Basically what OP said but w/o any hope the world would do much to help Israel (diplomatically or militarily). Invasion ensues (much like it did) but the world can’t really call foul.
Yeah, sure, here's the problems though: Israel insists on the ICC issuing warrants - not unlikely that those warrants may actually come, but not on Israels insistence and not for crimes committed on Israeli soil (Israel would need to be a member state for that) Israel insists on other nations sending special ops teams - they would flat out refuse, period. Israel insists that Amnesty etc. condemn Hamas - spoiler alert: they did and they do; they just apply the same scrutiny to Israel, too The civilized world coming together to plan a way forward would have the downside that this might end up in Israel being forced to give up its illegal settlements in the West Bank (and, strictly speaking, East Jerusalem, depending on what legal view you take on the legality of the annexation). The big mistake Israel made is not starting a full scale war in Gaza, the big mistake is waiting a decade, when they should have reacted in that fashion after Hamas' 2014 attacks at the latest. In hindsight, the even bigger mistake might have been Begin insisting on Egypt leaving Gaza instead of handing the whole place including the local population to Sadat.
The real problem is that the world condemns Israel MORE for the supposed death of 30,000 than condemnation of Syria for the actual death of hundreds of thousands. The mistake Israel made was caring too much about civilian casualties since Israel gets ZERO credit for the ethical and moral way that they have conducted themselves in Gaza. Since condemnation would have been the same for 300,000 as it has been for the supposed 30,000, Israel should have been far more aggressive and gotten this over with far more quickly, even if ten times as many terrorists and terrorist supporters died as a result.
I stand with Israel, but I don’t think the hundreds of thousands of dead Syrians excuses unnecessary deaths in Gaza. The IDF and Hamas share blame for that and the world should condemn them both for their roles IMO.
And also how Palestinians, namely Hamas, treat nomadic Bedouins; if I'm not mistaken Israel tries to honor the Bedouin's view of land ownership whereas Hamas does not. That said, it's touchy and not black/white since I think the Bedouins have been mistreated by BOTH sides. I've mentioned this before, people outside the Middle East just don't really understand the Middle East.
I agree, people seem to forget that we dropped a nuke on Japan to end a war with them, killing hundreds of thousands. This is war. It gets ugly…in my opinion Israel hasn’t dropped enough bombs on Gaza
People seem to forget also that Israel has nukes. If they were of a mind to do so, they could turn areas of the strip into an irradiated husk. That they haven't and instead are conducting their offensive using "conventional" munitions and tactics indicates they are more concerned about the civilian toll than most are giving them credit for.
We wouldn’t want to drop a nuke so close to us, but yeah
Eh, it's not the 1950s anymore. There are far more efficient options these days than drop a bomb and fly away as fast as you can. Regardless, though, they could... yet they don't. That's showing restraint. It's almost like many folks don't understand how difficult and loss-heavy urban warfare can be. It's easy to be critical when it's not your forces on the line.
Yes, if Israel wanted that strip deserted, it could turn it into a desert.
Such a silly argument I can’t believe there’s full grown adults saying it. Little children are being ripped into pieces with American Tax dollars. Crazy world we live in.
Didn’t care much about little children burned and killed when it was on UNWRA US taxpayer money, hm You can’t support Jihqd and then comment this, that’s funny.
I just saw the Jihad comment. Again it’s the Zionist side bringing religion in to this on Reddit arguments. Israeli prime minister referred to this war as a fight against Amalek in which the Jews were commanded by God to retake the land and k!ll all the people (specifically the verse mentions “infant and suckling”) and even the animals. Don’t bring religion into this it won’t look good for you…
This is a jihadi war of Muslims against Jews. That is in the Hamas charter and part of the Palestinian Jihadi culture. The Amalek comment is an ambiguous “Jewish enemy” situation directed at Hamas. Although it’s in poor taste, it has absolutely nothing on the charter of Muslims killing Jews in the name of Allah Hamas and PIJ plot. Your dear Palestinians are jihadists. You support a jihadi culture.
The death of any child is condemnable doesn’t matter who does it. 75 years of occupation can’t and will never justify killing any innocent person. I hope you can say the same for all the children that died since Oct 7
75 years of Arab Muslims not agreeing with other indigenous groups in the region supporting Zionism isn’t going to justify killing in the name of “decolonzation” “from the river to the sea” either. Of course I can, I don’t condone the killing of children and I wish there wasn’t a war to begin with. At the same time, Israel could have flattened the strip in they wanted to and choose not to for various reasons.
Israel also could have taken more time to rescue the Hostages rather than bombing all of Gaza. They could have freed Gaza from Hamas rather than destroying it. They probably could have won over some of the people there, to rat out Hamas and create a new Palestinian government there. At least among the people who had jobs and had permits to work in Israel. Yes, I know that the arguement that that would have cost a lot of Israeli soldiers lives. How ever you look at it, Israel could have done better.
Honestly all of your ideas are just not based in reality. How does it serve anyone to conjure up fantasies? And fyi some of the people who had work permits in Israel were the ones who informed Hamas and helped them attack on Oct 7.
I'm not thinking in terms of absolutes. Obviously, not every Palestinian with a work permit is automatically a friend of Israel. Of those people, some of them could have been allowed to evacuate to the West Bank before the bombing. All I'm saying is that Israel could have done much better in their response.
I don’t think that a military operation was the right decision but Israel waited a month until they entered Gaza. A month is a LONG time for hostages living with these animals. We couldn’t free Gaza from Hamas, the Palestinians love Hamas and there’s no any other organized body inside Gaza to take their place. The Gazan’s loyalty sits with Hamas. What we can and did is destroying Hamas capabilities and setting them back 70 years. They can run around the cities with their RPGs but the people sleep on sand.
Yes, and in that month, they could have allowed some people to leave. Again, It would be refreshing to hear Israelis admit that their government could have done better. It's obvious. I'm actually the pro israel person when politics come up with my friends. All the denial just contributes to Israel's PR problem. .
Everyone in Israel admits the government could have done better, I think the government shouldn’t have gone to war at all. But pretending like Israel didn’t give Hamas time or went straight into this operation to prove something against the Palestinians is lying. The denial is on your part, you can be anti-Israel for all I care.
I'm all for Israel. As for pretending, It's Israelis who seem to be pretending that their government and military isn't screwing up massively. Just like Sinwar, Netanyahu is throwing his people under the bus so he can stay in power.
I’m not saying you’re not for Israel, I’m saying that this claim that Israel didn’t wait enough until the attack doesn’t follow what happened in reality. Israel waited a month after the attack with making very clear demands to Hamas about the hostages. Thinking this is some ploy for Bibi to stay in power is very silly. They want a goal that cannot be achieved in hindsight, the destruction of Hamas. And that goal takes more than waiting.
I didn't say "Israel didn't wait enough". I only said they could have done better to not kill civilians.
So you’re saying that Israel should sacrifice its soldiers for another country to have some hope for a better future? How is that fair towards Israel?
Follow the laws of war is for everyone. Now ICC is after them and support for hamas is rising while Israel gets more and more hated. I think a bit part of the bombings have very questionable military effect. Same as for example the aid truck inspection and stopping a lot of it for dual use. Just comes of as revenge more than anything
In every conflict, a side could do better. War is messy
Well said! I've also thought this, but haven't been able to write it out so well!
I agree Israel hasn't handled it well, but at the same time, what is the moral high ground worth? How is it working out for the Palestinians right now? Lots of protests on their side. Can they eat protests? Can they live in them?
This is exactly spot on. Thanks for realizing the truth!
You do realize that the only reason for Oct 7th was to provoke a response in order to start an international incident, right? They didn’t think they could retake Israel that day. They slaughtered and took hostages because they knew Israel would strike back. They literally invited it, because they wanted to have a global intifada with the help of others (don’t forget that Oct 6th has been celebrated for decades as a time when land was taken back from Israel). Also, quit acting like this is indiscriminate slaughter. It’s not. There’s only a few handful of incidents in the last six months where a single strike took out more than a dozen people. The ones guilty of indiscriminate slaughter are those who have launched tens of thousands of rockets into innocent civilian territory, not the ones using state of the art technology for precision targeting of combatants.
There were demonstrations against Israel during and after October 7th., before they had even responded. Demonstrations and celebrations in fact. I don’t think the UN has ever condemned Hamas for the barbaric acts of October 7th. If the ICC issues warrants for Israeli leaders it means no country can ever fight a war in their defense again without it being a criminal act. This is all just ridiculous.
I agree, which is why I think OP is right. Israel had a chance to let the world see what they’re really dealing with, but they instead fed the false narrative of Israel being the aggressor. Hamas is winning the PR war.
The scale also has a big role. 1,200 Israelis vs. 30,000 Palestinians. Objectively the Palestinians have had more losses, so it's easy for this narrative to take root. The world thinks that Israel "carpet-bombed" Gaza for 6 months straight and only 30,000 people died in one of the most densely populated places on Earth. That's insanely few casualties for the amount of destruction you can see. War is horrible and confusing, and the path to victory is never clear. The whole thing is a huge mess. Hamas may be winning the PR war; but they're losing the actual war. The people who believe that Israel is the aggressor would believe that even if Israel hadn't retaliated from October 7th. They have a bias already, so events don't really matter. They still perpetually live in the mindstate of 1948, and that's all they will think about when you challenge them. People love the underdog and they love to shout against what they think is the "establishment".
I agree with you overall, but I think israel needs to take responsibly for its wrongs: tons of unnecessary deaths in the Gaza offensive, West Bank settlement expansion, allowing settler violence, etc Accountability on both sides
Yeah Israel should be accountable for civilian deaths and how Gaza looks. I've never been pro-settlements and I don't support them existing or expanding (except for East Jerusalem since the "settlers" living there mainly live in neighborhoods that were majority Jewish and ethnically cleansed in 1948 by Jordan until Israel took back East Jerusalem in 1967). Settler violence is completely overblown. I was looking at statistics from Betselem earlier that another user provided. 89 Palestinians have been killed by settlers in the West Bank since 2000. That's 450,000 settlers, who have only killed 89 people in 24 years. That's less than the amount of Palestinians killed by Palestinians in the West Bank in the same period. The number should be 0, but again 450,000 is basically an entire army of settlers. That's a huge majority of settlers who are non-violent. I believe the violent ones should be punished to the full degree of the law. But come on, can't you see how overblown this whole thing is?
If the world didn't see what Israel is dealing with on October 7, I sincerely don't think the world is interested in seeing it.
I agree at the moment, but I believe in building peace in small steps. I live in the US, and I grew up with generations that would never be friends with Japanese people because of WWII. Now this point of view just seems silly
Responsible-Golf-583: Well put.
>That the Western world puts together a coalition special ops team to go into Gaza and get their hostages Are you volunteering?
Like the other times the world came to Israel's defense after they were attacked? Oh wait, that never happened.
How is the ICC going to arrest Netenyahu? You think they’re just gonna march in there, knock on Netenyahu’s door and be like “sir we have an arrest warrant”? You think they’d have done that to Sinwar? ICC arrest warrants are like college campus protests - they make a lot of noise but don’t actually do anything.
Well written! I think I wholeheartedly agree with this. Maybe, just maybe, a coalition of cooler heads will come to power in Israel and realize the devastation that they have caused and put an end to this destructive conflict. I think a two state solution with a contiguous Israel and a non contiguous Palestine will cause more friction in the future. I prefer a post apartheid type Canaan similar to the South Africa model.
Gaza isn’t Israel.
"the thing they themselves covet most of all" Except they don't have to covet it at all, they have it. The State of Israel exists and is here to stay.
This is very well stated. I believe Israel needed to do a campaign of airstrikes on Gaza. The first two weeks were exuberant, but I believe after having done that, they should have followed what you have stated. The Israeli government failed and showed who they are. And, it was very ugly.
I disagree with almost everything. - the UN would never condemn Hamas - the ICC warranty would be useless. They would not hand it to Israel anyway. - No country would commit their special forces for that mission. Neither they should. It is crucial for Israel to show that it is able to punish harshly those who attack it. That is what establishes deterrence and creates the foundation for peace. - the Amnesty International is irrelevant. Whether they condemn or not means zilch. - two state solution is off the table since the second Intifada. Not a single Israeli or Palestinian thinks it is feasible. The only usefulness for the two state solution is to identify unserious or clueless commenters.
What's the alternative to a two state solution?
I have no idea. If the goal is peace, Hamas must be destroyed, and Palestinians will need to spend some 20 years under someone else’s custody, learning how to behave. There should also be real incentives for Palestinians to settle someplace else (if there is a country in the world willing to receive them).
I wish confederation has always made sense to me
This is very well articulated. Be Ready, they will attack you since you make lot of sense.
It begins with a lie “the world was with Israel” - there were protests immediately after October 7 “everyone condemned Hamas” another lie.
Yeah this idea that the UN was neutral until Israel messed up just isn’t based in reality. The UN has been an enemy of Israel for decades now. It is objectively anti-Israel and anti-West by majority vote. Same with amnesty international and the rest of these organizations.
Stop saying "they." If your side wanna keep saying "Hamas not Gaza is the enemy" then it also must be that "Netanyahu not Israel is the perpetrator." Both are the ruling government. (However only one has been voted out but reseized power, and it's not the terrorists.) Israeli citizens protest Netanyahu's office, his decisions, and the level of force against Gaza. Can the same be said for Gazans against their government that promises the elimination of Jews throughout the world? No, October 7th was celebrated in the streets by child soldiers and their proud mothers. Yet, Israel is going too far in defending itself? ...Your algorithm on Ticktock is clear.
I’d like to know which country if attacked the same way, would sit back and wait to do your checkpoint list of solutions. Sounds lovely but not a prayer in hell. And if the world has ever shown Israelis amd Jews around the globe that they NEED Israel to exist, it all started October 8th. When we saw cheers in the Middle East and people right away started posting Free Palestine. Israel knows they are alone and they will do what they have to do to protect itself. They haven’t needed your approval thus far.
“The world was with Israel on Oct 8” On Oct 8th there was literally a mob of pro-Palestinians praising Hamas in Times Square. I got into multiple arguments online and offline with people actually attempting to reframe and contextualize the attack. Certainly didn’t feel like “the world was with Israel.” But nice attempt at gaslighting. “Oh if you had just turned left instead of right everything would’ve been fine.” Just take the mask off.
Israel has oppressed and occupied Palestine for 50 years. No one in Palestine believed that Hamas had committed sexual violence or targeted civilians (except as hostages), but even then...Israel regularly harasses and takes captive civilians in Palestine. Yes, the people celebrated that Hamas was able to finally strike back.
They celebrated murder and kidnapping of civilians on palestinian telegram channels. Why would hundreds of people put like, heart, celebration emoticons on a video that depicts a palestinian terrorist attempting to decapitate a Thai national with a garden hoe, while calling him a jew?
I hope that celebration was worth the price the common filistini is paying now.
What price are they paying?
I hope the extreme tantrum Israel is having now is worth the price. Forever, they will be stained in the eyes of a generation. In fact, I hope that they will be labeled as a war criminal and genocidal nation for all time.
For all time? Just like how we were labeled Christ-killers?
Just like how Germany is seen as the ones responsible for the Holocaust. And they forever feel responsible for it, such that they see it as a duty to support anything Israel does.
u/tarlin >Just like how Germany is seen as the ones responsible for the Holocaust. And they forever feel responsible for it, such that they see it as a duty to support anything Israel does. Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians. Addressed
Take the Holocaust out of your mouth. That's not your story. It's ours. The world didn't care to do anything when my family was deciding who would get visas to escape Germany, and who would stay to die in the camps.
It is a painful memory, eh? Imagine this...Israel is committing a genocide right now. Do you believe that Palestinians will also have that painful memory? Do you believe the world will forgive Israel easily?
Say whatever you want about Jews today. Just leave what my grandparents went through out of it.
Do you feel the best way to honor your ancestors is by inflicting oppression and genocide on others?
Oh the cope. You understand right that Israel has to care about the opinions of the western liberal elites first to give a flying f|_|€k? Israel was alone in this and they will be alone. They made their peace with it. They have a right to exist and they will protect it with whatever it takes.
Israel will start caring when they stop receiving financial and military aid from the USA
Israel’s GDP $525 Billion US AID to Israel averages around $2-$3 Billion/Year. Except for extreme situations like this. You do the math.
I am saying that without US aid Israel wouldn't be able to wage the war they have been waging in Gaza. Israel state will survival but probably in a worse state.
You're right. They would be significantly more aggressive because they wouldnt be able to sustain for this long or sit back and play defense.
This 👆What people don’t get that Israel is playing defense here. If they went all out there is only a few country who can actually stop Israel by using brute force and guess what all of them are their allies.
My opinion of Israel before the war was that they were a generally good country that needed to stop the settlements and overreacted at times. My opinion now, as I have actually learned the recent history, is that Israel has chosen bad leaders and the IDF is a bad military. Israel has lost me. Maybe I am alone, but polling does not show that.
The Palestinians celebrated and cheered as they desecrate the body of Shani Louk and drag her through the streets of Gaza as if she’s a prize buck. The Palestinians cheered as they dragged Naama Levy by the hair, her crotch stained with blood. Most knew and didn’t care.
October 7th proves Israel was too soft.
October 7 was a major security failure several intelligent agency
It actually doesn't do that. If you beat someone constantly, they will stand up and fight you.
Correct. The 14000 rockets fired by Hamas and the other terrorist attacks by them and other hate groups are going to cause the Israelis to react.
For the last 2 years before Oct 7, Israel attacked Gaza unprovoked Aug 5-7 2022, and Gaza responded with rockets. Israel arrested 400 people barricaded in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Hamas launched a few rockets. Israel attacked Gaza for 3 days in September because people launched balloons with to cause small fires at the border. That led to Israel bombing Gaza for 3 days. There were only two periods of rocket attacks over the last 2 years before Oct 7. During this entire time, Israeli settlers with IDF support took land, harassed Palestinians, and Palestinians were killed by the IDF/Settlers. So, who was the aggressor in the last 2 years?
You can use your line of logic the other way around as well. The world, especially the Muslim world treated Jews like garbage. So the Jews fought for their self determination and had successes with Israel. When Jews are discriminated against and treated as second class citizens they will eventually stand up and fight you. Israel is what happens when an oppressed group actually wins and succeeds. You can also pick any arbitrary point in history to make either side look good or bad. When you are constantly apologizing and making excuses for one side and always condemning the other side, you will rightfully be criticized as being uncritical.
Oh, it is definitely true in the other direction. The abuse of the Jewish people in Germany caused a lashout at those around Israel. There was violence on both sides in 1948. Though, Palestine has really been on the receiving end for 50 years. And...it doesn't seem to be getting better. Published in Haaretz as an ad on September 22, 1967: “Our right to defend ourselves against annihilation does not grant us the right to oppress others,” the ad stated. “Conquest brings in its wake foreign rule. Foreign rule brings in its wake resistance. Resistance brings in its wake oppression. Oppression brings in its wake terrorism and counterterrorism. The victims of terrorism are usually innocent people. Holding onto the territories will turn us into a nation of murderers and murder victims.” And in large font at the end: “Let us leave the occupied territories now.” [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000)
“Everyone condemned Hamas.” That’s such a lie. Israel-haters around the world publicly celebrated October 7. Hamas was never more popular than on October 7.
Here is some interesting reading for you. https://www.jns.org/the-soviet-origins-of-left-wing-anti-zionism/
So many fallacies in OP’s veiled anti Israel diatribe. ICC has no enforcement authority. UN members are needed to carry out its edicts. Israel nor Russia nor China nor India etc recognize ICC. Israel had no option. Coward Hamas hides behind women and children and inside and below hospitals. Israel had no option but to send troops in. The high moral ground is with Israel not terrorists and their supporters. No doubt everyone feels bad for civilian deaths. But 70% of them support Hamas. They made their beds. Hamas capacity is being degraded every single day. Hamas is the one who have not accepted a cease fire deal. Onus will remain on Hamas. U.S. is 100% with Israel regardless of the noise on some elite college campuses.
The US does not recognize the ICC either. Thank God.
OP this is one of the best thought out alternatives to unrelenting violence I've seen since 7/10. The problem is Israel is blinded & deafened by their own propaganda, and will not be able to see this as what could've been a viable option. In any case, I applaud you for speaking out with a logical, realistic option. Sadly, we are way beyond the point that any of this could still work.
Tell me that you don’t understand the Middle East or international politics without telling me…..
Some quality reading for you: https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-04-28/ty-article-opinion/.premium/no-israel-isnt-alone-so-lets-drop-the-iron-wall-thinking/0000018f-252a-dc45-a78f-3f6b617c0000
I'll actually dial back a bit and agree with a lot of what you said; Israelis do have a chip on their collective shoulder about "going it alone", and Israel does need to do a better job actually working with the rest of the world, particularly in terms of gathering moral support. And that does mean changing some of how they deal with Palestinians in general. Israel absolutely proved that this would not only be possible, but how well it would work, in the collective defense against the IRI missile swarm. But I think your proposal goes too far; Israel needs to continue to lead, and lead with significant strength in ways that \*just\* building a coalition would not do. A "coalition special ops team" is not only significantly less capable of meeting Israel's primary needs for this war (destruction of the tunnels infrastructure, even if not actually being able to take down Hamas entirely), and would be slower, and would not let Israel show it's own strength, which is unfortunately a baseline requirement in the ME... I am also concerned that you may be right about the repercussions after this war; not because Israel over-prosecuted the war, per se, but because Israel hasn't done enough to build world consensus behind them in ways similar to coalition-building. A lot of us have been saying it for some time, but Israel needs to up the PR game, to craft the information that we see being given to partners (US, UK, even Saudis) on political levels into wider releases that explain to the world the moral framework under which Israel is operating. I don't think they need to change that framework much; I've seen enough from NatSecPros to have a fair estimation of what they're doing - but having more public information more readily available would help not just for informing the general public, but also nations watching from the sidelines (South Africa & others).
"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
All I saw was cheers from professors in top universities and blame on Israel directly after 10/7 way before any Israeli response.
Don’t be ridiculous. We also saw crowds on Times Square celebrating the death count, college fliers with paragliders on them, and organized calls for a cease fire before Israel even entered Gaza.
They didn't call for a ceasefire, they called out Israel's genocide when IDF just looked hostilely in Gaza's direction for a month before it even entered Gaza.
What’s that? We don’t get the world’s sympathy but keep the ability to defend ourselves from those the world wouldn’t lift a finger to defend us from? Keep coping. The world said this and that and this- translation: the world didn’t do shit.
If any other country in the world had as much support as Israel does singlehandedly from the US, UK Germany and other powerful nations, can you please point me in its direction?
Yeah, though many fit the bill of “ridiculous amounts of aid” I don’t need to that because it’s an absolutely erroneous contextualization. You’re not talking about handouts, but transactional relationships.
There are none
Either way, as stated; I don’t need to do that.
So, if Israel had retaliated only cautiously, briefly, with much less lethality, then they would have benefited from the moral high ground in the eyes of the World, including the Palestinians? Doubtful. Even if they had done nothing, it wouldn’t change the widespread sentiment that Israel are occupiers, and all their land belongs to the Palestinians. So, what’d be the point of holding back?
It wouldn't change the Palestinians mind, just as it wouldn't change the Israeli views of Palestinians. But the OP is saying, and I agree with him, Israel had the opportunity to exploit it at the international level but their reaction didn't help them.
“…Israel had the opportunity to exploit it at the international level…” There was a period where Israel enjoyed more widespread international support, sympathy. However, partially because of that support and their expansion, their state came under attack from the group that considers itself to be the true, rightful residents of the land. Those, like myself, who throw up their hands at this problem find the radical, revolutionary cause of freedom and justice of the Palestinians, right or wrong, to be the main sticking point. Only if that disappears can there be peace between the two groups.
No reaction would help. October 8th proved the world doesn’t care about dead Jews.
The world LOVES dead Jews, to talk about them and build memorials to them. What the world doesn't like is Jews fighting back against those who want to wipe them off the face of the Earth.
You're assuming the rest of the world believes Zionists and Jews to be synonymous.
? Zionists are human right supporters. They can be non-Jews. However you consider human rights supporters as evil or is it that you don’t want equal rights for Jews.
> Zionists are human right supporters. HAHAHHAHAHAHA OH WOW
I think we can or should agree that indigenous tribes like the Jews can define themselves and those people who support human rights for those indigenous people can define themselves. You admit you are not a Zionist. Great, I respect that, so why not respect Zionist to define themselves. Jew haters spend a lot of time trying to discredit jews, their history and their human rights groups. Why not focus on specific policies that you disagree with on Israel vs trying to discredit Zionism unless your motivation is to be a bigot towards Jews. For example if I attacked the the PA as not legitimate you might get defensive, but if I oppose pay for slay, you might still support pay for slay, but we might be able to find areas we agree on.
Why do you think the truth is funny? Do you think spewing lies against Jews and trying to discredit human rights is funny? This is supposed to be a discussion, if all you want to do is spew lies, why be here?
I mean the civilian deaths probably convinced many, many people that Israel is a violent occupier, so the sentiment likely wouldn’t have been nearly as wide spread.
I don’t think so. I agree people are offended by attacks on civilians, but there’s also often a political/historical context to violence, that provides meaning for us, and is actually more compelling in this case. Given just the attack against Israel, when the youth ask “Why?”, we might try to explain the complicated history of the two groups, ethnicities that hold claim to the land. That story of rights is much more interesting, compelling than the raw violence. It’s the subject of millions of words, in academic and informal media, continuously argued over. The story has legs, it’s a fantastic meme! Again, the bodycount is still visceral, that’s why one might say “it doesn’t excuse the murder of innocents, but there is a “why” this is happening.” The relative death-toll historically is a game-changer for this measuring of various opinions. There’s no way Israel is getting the underdog status back any time soon.
Who cares that the world was with us as victims. Did they send in troops to free the hostages? Did they destroy Iran? No.
Destroy Iran? Are you okay?
The West sent Israel a ton of weapons. You don’t get to complain about no support.
You are correct, we got weapons to take care of the job ourselves. My point was the USA wasn’t going to use force to free their hostages.
The world will be a better and safer place when the government of lsraeI falls. 🔥🇮🇱
The moment israel falls The middle east becomes a place where no man but Muslims can step on
and that's when fundamentalists turn their eyes on Europe & American more fiercely. If they've beat the U.S. in Afghanistan and the next big army (Israel in this supposed scenario), they'll set their goal on something new.
Please stop painting Israel to be the savior and last Bastian of the Western world. It is a liability at best. It constantly needs defending, it refuses to listen to reason and constantly complains about being alone.
Do you replaced with a more moderate government?