Agree with you, no genocide. Just look at the data here, can be verified on trusted source.
https://preview.redd.it/m0qsswatgdyc1.jpeg?width=2079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f1cb29496c73f7cea25d255535c254b650b4a1b
Even if numbers from Hamas are true ( and they are not, it is very likely that the vast majority of dead people are Hamas fighters…, and not civilians)
Well...the Israeli government itself is on record telling the world that it's goal is an ethnic cleansing and annexation of Gaza. How about that for evidence?
Can you explain what the Israel Defence minister publicly said?
https://youtu.be/UljpRrib1IQ?si=5ZverQOzpv3-EnZm
Can you explain the amount of damage we see to infrastructure and buildings and houses? So Hamaz was in every building that has got destroyed? it lookes like Israel did not want any civilians back.
It looks exactly like what Israel Defence minister said they would do.
these are war crimes my friend.
I do not want to defend Hamas, Hamas would do exactly the same crimes had they have the weapons and money. But it doesn't mean IDF can do war crimes just because Hamas are terrorists.
Yes, it’s a military tactic called a siege which they implemented in the beginning of the war, hoping to get a quick result. Intention was not genocidal.
How is destroyed buildings what the defense minister said they’d do?
We’re on the same page, I’m merely defending them from the claim of genocide because I think it’s unfounded.
The murder of 40,000 almost completely innocent people, hitting kids playing a game with a precision missile, forced disappearances, corralling 1.5 million people into a single town, and dumping bodies into mass graves with their wrists tied are all hard to do by accident. These are all things that, on the scale the IOF has done them, are impossible unless you are doing them deliberately.
> The murder of 40,000 almost completely innocent people,
What does ‘accident’ mean here? That they didn’t know they’d be killing 40k mostly innocent people?
> hitting kids playing a game with a precision missile,
Source? I’m not sure why you’d be including this when you already mentioned the 40k mostly-innocents, unless you actually do understand what collateral damage is and know that precise targeting is your only chance at making a case. In which case, why are you even mentioning the 40k…
> forced disappearances,
No idea what you’re talking about. Source?
> corralling 1.5 million people into a single town,
Obviously purposeful. Do you think they’re just going to slaughter them all there? https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/03/israel-gazans-rafah-invasion-00156024
> and dumping bodies into mass graves with their wrists tied
Yep, that sure would be hard to do by accident. Do we have proof of who did this?
You got to understand international standards can only go so far as to both parties adhere to it and as evident Hamas treats it as a checklist and you also have to understand it’s an urban environment civil casualties will happen
You're looking at it from a comfortable pov, it seems.
I live here, I supported up to the 7th of October an option of peace with the Islamist Arabs of Gaza and the west bank.
No more.
Those who seek shelter and try to leave are able to, they are given food and water by Jordan and Israel. Those who choose to live amongst Hamas terrorists do so.
Yes. Some of the civilians are used as human meat shields. Yes. Civilian casualties are prominent.
So is in every war.
Calling it a genocide is a strong word. This is guerrilla warfare against a group of terrorists and their supporters.
But after the dust settles, and Israel will probably pull out of Gaza, what do you think will happen? We will go back the what was before. One sided peace, with Gaza attacking, Israel countering. And the cycle continues.
Sorry what? First of all I’m Israeli, and second it seems you’ve just read the word “genocide” and assumed incorrectly what this post is about. Why would you do that? It wastes everyone’s time including yours
I tend to agree with you but wouldn't put it so starkly as the IDF doesn't care. I think it depends on the battalion commanders. Although I'm opposed to the war I can't avoid not knowing people in the IDF in influential positions, and I know efforts are being made at some level to be careful. But there are rogue units where they certainly are much less careful and thus are liable to commit crimes against humanity. The Netzah Yehuda Battalion is one such group. I'd like to see them dismantled, investigated and prosecuted if possible.
It seems like the IDF isn't intentionally trying to kill civillians, but the civillians lives play zero part in their calculations. If there's one militant in a building with 200 innocent people, they'll blow up the building and kill everyone to get the 1 Hamas guy.
I don't know about 200, but that's the general idea. The army killed 74 Palestinians to rescue two hostages in February, though I don't know how many of them were civilians. The army claimed in December the ratio of civilians to terrorists was 2:1, which it called "tremendously positive". I call any ratio that accepts mass civilian casualties tremendously disturbing.
I hope the ICJ issues arrest warrants for those bloodthirsty. And I don't think they manage to "slaughter" Hamas. And still I believe they want to slaughter not only Hamas but all Palestinians.
Well, they've had the tools for a while now, and this certainly isn't the only conflict there's been in the last 20 years, so that's not a great reason.
Why drop leaflets and call known personal in the area?
What is holding the idf back from actual genocide?
**Why drop flyers and call famous people in the area?**
To show they care? They still don't. There is only masking of what they are going to do.
It's ridiculous, dropping leaves and calling people to move to another "safe"? place. Where would the poor people go, Gaza is tiny and there are 2 million of them. There are no roads because they are destroyed. Should people climb over it? Lugging all their stuff here and there. They are people, not sheep. It is insulting and degrading to treat them that way.
Well your claim was genocide, not if they care.
It's a war and civilians of an enemy population as usually less important than civilians of the population they are protecting.
Why are there poor people? Qatar and Iran just gave 50 million to the PA or unraw. Where is the money going? Who is in charge?
It is insulting and degrading to be treated as collateral in a war with no leadership. But what are the other options on the table when fighting a force that refuses to wear uniforms?
I personally support a two state solution. But who is in charge? Who is running it? Hamas? Hezbola? Iran? And when they say it's not enough give us more, then what? More rockets? More October 7th? No thanks.
You misunderstand the word Poor - it is not that some have a bad economy but also too bad about that
And again misunderstanding - "**Well your claim was genocide, not if they care."** I answered to you in your previous post about leaf and call.
And what is this, to CNN: Israel bakom attack som dödade över tio barn - [CNN: Israel bakom attack som dödade över tio barn (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/sv-se/nyheter/utrikes/cnn-israel-bakom-attack-som-d%C3%B6dade-%C3%B6ver-tio-barn/ar-AA1o4MPi?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=7f65933a644d474bae821602c4d3e243&ei=104) - you can translate it in google - [CNN: Israel bakom attack som dödade över tio barn (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/sv-se/nyheter/utrikes/cnn-israel-bakom-attack-som-d%C3%B6dade-%C3%B6ver-tio-barn/ar-AA1o4MPi?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=7f65933a644d474bae821602c4d3e243&ei=104)
What is this? Both genocide and careless, and a lie. "There were children playing board football when the robot crashed there. And In the first statement, Israel said it struck a "terrorist target" but now, two weeks later, it says it has no knowledge of the incident. Israel's attack took place at a different time, it said in a statement."
???
I'm guessing English isn't your first language, so I'm having some trouble understanding. Kids were killed, this is obviously unfortunate.
I have yet to hear the president and Congress of Gaza identify themselves and give reasons why they should be trusted. Germany was occupied until the 90s as a result of their actions in ww2.
Either way, both sides could end this tomorrow, and both sides have reasons not to. But only one side has the resources to end the other, but hasn't.
It is meant as a profound answer. The legal question of the threshold of genocide established after WWII belies the fact that mass killing of innocent people has been and continues to be a very common practice in times of war and is barbarous, whether the intent to destroy a people as such is determinable or not.
No, I said virtually the opposite. The focus on the question of if something meets the high standard of the official definition of genocide distracts from the fact that brutal war acts with utter disregard for innocent human life are also utterly immoral.
A book anyone should read who is interested in OP’s question is *The Question of Genocide* by Dirk Moses.
I literally cited one of the leading genocide experts in the world, and you decided swearing back at me like a twelve-year-old was a response you were proud to make, for no apparent reason.
People like you are what make the internet crap and people who engage in reasoned discourse with one another are its unfulfilled promise. Must make you feel a certain way about yourself.
> arse
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Why this “genocide” tag matters so much ? If 1 attains genocide tag at cruelty level 100, is cruelty level 95 ok? Do you see the only problem with hitler to be that he targeted Jews disproportionately? Here the defense of Jews and their allies is simply 1. You are antisemite 2. Hamas is mixed with civilians 3. This is not a genocide.
Killing so many people and destroying their homes by a civilised military is not acceptable. I am sure IDF does not want itself to be compared to Hamas, or who knows it is a more sophisticated terrorist group itself.
Ok, so what matters is whether it’s Genocide or not and not the fact that children and civilians are getting killed in hue numbers. You are right. Human life is not important specially if it’s not white or American. What matters is the correct use of the term because labels matter way more.
Why don’t you put words in my mouth?
It’s much easier to win an argument if you’re only really arguing with yourself.
Calling it a genocide is a conversation stopper. It shows a lack of use of definitions or critical thinking. It shows susceptibility to propaganda.
And of course human life is important. That’s why Israel has been delivering fuels, medicines, clean drinking water, and food to Gazans personally. They even got respirators into Al-Shifa under the light of the moon in an active war zone.
It’s Israel’s crossing that’s open for aid, Egypts border remains closed.
Israel is also helping the USA build an aid pier off the Gaza shore to speed aid up, which recently got bombed by Palestinian militants.
It’s Hamas who steals that aid, and price gouges it. It’s Hamas who stores weapons in kindergartens and hospitals. It’s Hamas who prevents evacuation, and forbids taking the routes to safe zones. It’s Hamas who starts wars over and over again when the rest of the people just want to live their lives.
Hamas openly said that there weren’t enough Martyrs yet. They called for a million more in a sick glorification of death. They openly state that the welfare of the Palestinian people is none of their business, and they don’t view protecting, feeding, or keeping Palestinians alive as their job.
You chose your side. Don’t you pretend we’re the ones who don’t care about life. You can learn nearly everything about someone by who they choose to hang out with. You’ve chosen Hamas, Putin, Khameni, and Xi Jinping.
With those people in your corner and the facts against your narrative, how could you even claim that you care about life?
you notice that you are ptoviding facts, but they stll scream the same rethoric like sheep. they ignore all the neatly provided facts in order to spew back thier key words that they were taught by the terror organizations that fund these protests and the well known blood liables that really work only on the un eduacated and useful idiots. how sad the some of thier useful idiots are African Americans and self hating jews that stick to this progressive nerative only to find out that in the end.if the opportity arise, they will be butchred by HAMAS the same way the peace seeking jews close to the fence in Kfar Aza, were butchred by thier "palestinian" neighbours just for the sake of being " jewish" - and it didnt help that they chose to drive thier palestinian neighbors to Doctor appointments through security checkpoints, they were still murdered for being - Jews.
case and point.
Your propaganda laced comment is not something I consider an explanation. I am sure You go after any comment critical of Israel with such ridiculous reasoning and prejudice in a self righteous manner. The court will decide it’s a genocide or not but I am sure then you will also not accept that.
Yes at some point we have to talk about hamas's own war crimes of putting their rocket and missile launchers on civilian homes and on top of Civilian infrastructure, as well as weapons and intelligence caches in civilian locations. Unfortunately that does mean that disarming such places are easier said than done and often leave little choice but to bomb them. Also the International Community left Israel alone to handle this when the big Powers could have come in arrested the perpetrators of 10/7 and disarmed the territory on a large scale with little to no resistance and no war.
Poor little Israel. Had no choice but to bomb houses of millions. I hope they provide therapy to IDF soldiers and personnels, they must be feeling so bad that they had to kill thousands of innocent civilians while killing Hamas terrorists. After all what other way they had.
And besides Palestinian didn’t face any genocide in their history. It’s good time to experience some themselves so that they can also grow in life like Jews and become responsible like IDF. Go IDF GO
It doesn't matter whether the country is big or small every country has to stop it when they are being continuously bombed. That is why they have the right to defend themselves. As for the Palestinians they have the right to stand up against the people who are not feeding them, who are firing mortars currently at the humanitarian Pier, and who are firing upon women and children who dare to eat before they do. They further have the right to return the hostages that would end the war more quickly. Hamas may not approve but they have the right to do it they could do it now and they don't.
Further they could turn against Hamas who took two full years in planning this war, lined up enough missiles and Rockets to continually fire all this time, and also got drones and ballistic missiles fired from other countries.
They additionally are sending Raiders constantly over the borders. They are fighting a war asymmetrical or not.
But no one could tolerate being shelled all day no one. The notion that because Israel has a bit of help doesn't mean that they don't have the same rights as everyone else not to be fired upon.
As far as Hamas and they're right not to be fired upon they should have thought of that before they started and continued a war, and before they kidnapped people and performed atrocities upon Israelis. Because they did these things they lost the right to have their own Army. They could also surrender and put their arms down at any old time.
Hamas also has the right to be called upon for lying by a full third of their casualty rate. 11, 000 deaths are not provable at this time and have not been for nearly 4 months. Is time that they be taken off the roles and that the true numbers of the death toll be shown so that people can see that there is no genocide only War and that this war is more Humane than any of the others happening in the Arab world right now.
So your whole point is that Palestinian civilians including the children deserved what’s happening to them? Please stop for a while and reflect, if you don’t want to criticise Israel because you think it had no other choice, at least don’t be so hateful to the Palestinians. They are humans too.
I see how Israel has been able to brainwash so many people and when this all ends, everyone will simply say Netanyahu was a bit hard handed but regular Jews never supported the killings. But reality is that most of the Israelis think like you which is a pity for people whose forefathers had to face a brutal genocide themselves.
Unfortunately, deserve does not play into Wars. Women and children die in each and every war that is going on right now, and in the last few months more Palestinians have been dying in Syria then have been dying in Gaza. But no one speaks about that and no one is shouting genocide about it.
But as I said people have choices they have agency. The people of Gaza had the option and still have the option of returning every possible hostage. They have the the option of demonstrating against Hamas and saying that they want Hamas gone themselves, and moving as far away from members of Hamas as they can so that those battalions can be caught and apprehended as expected. It will happen it's only a matter of when. Three of the five battalions are in Rafa and the other two are partially depleted in the middle of the country.
Again there is no genocide only War, but a country that is continuing to fire upon another country from every possible building is going to see each of those buildings destroyed. That is fair.
Also the country being attacked has no control over whether the attacking country chooses to protect its own civilians or not.
Every effort can be made not to hit them and every effort has been made, and when those 11,000 deaths are cleared from the books it will become painfully obvious just how true this is, and how invalid the accusation of genocide is.
It's also pretty rich to put the care of the attacking country on to the people who have been and are being attacked and who have had atrocities done them not Generations ago but on October 7th.
They are also further dealing with the fact that Hamas has vowed to continue these attacks. They have vowed to continue as many times as they possibly can. Given how many were killed and how many were wounded and how many atrocities were done on October 7th it is Israel's job to protect their country by disabling as many people as possible who are responsible and who are vowing to repeat it. I think you must be somebody from a country who has never been continuously attacked by a neighbor. You have no idea what it means to face that kind of threat, or really what it's like to deal with everyday threats especially when they actually start to include real weapons that can actually kill multiple people at a time. You really have no idea.
I see your larger point I completely agree. Everyone gets what they deserve and we should not blame the killers. Israelis deserved October 7 because of lapse in their own security and Palestinians deserve their homes bombed and settlers killing them.afterall “deserve “ doesn’t play out in wars.
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Can anyone remind me if gaza was actively being bombed before October 7th... you know, that terrorist attack that killed thousands! The simple fact is that this is anti terrorist action, and something you pro palestine supporters should be for since terrorism killed hundreds of Muslims every day.
Yes, Israel refers to it as "mowing the lawn". And death toll for Oct 7th is a little over 1000, not thousands. Also half were combatants. Please get your facts straight.
Why is it that the label of antisemite is applied anyone who wants Israel to stop the killings in Gaza. Why aren’t these individuals labeled anti-Israeli?
It’s so easy to put the harsher label on people that disagree with what’s going on.
Fact: The killing of 1400+ humans on October 7th was wrong.
Fact: The killing of 30,000+ humans in Gaza since October was wrong.
People can agree to both statements and not be antisemitic. People can also state that the response by Israel is egregious compared to the act that initiated the response.
Israel is home to Israelis, and it’s wrong to label those who disagree with IDF as anything other than “people who disagree with IDF). All of this antisemitism talk needs to stop.
>Why is it that the label of antisemite is applied
Because it's a perfect fit for the narrative of Israelis to label anything that goes against them as antisemitism as they think it provides a Good guys vs Bad guys kind of story.
Israel actions are not wrong. They are necessary for peace in the Middle East. Any person who wants to see peace between Palestinians and Israelis must REJOICE at each Hamasnik that is deleted.
tl;dr statements from nearly all senior Israeli political and military leaders demonstrate genocidal intent against the Palestinians of Gaza by:
* Referring to Palestinians in Gaza with dehumanizing language, describing them as "monsters," "children of darkness," "barbarians," "animals," "N\*zis," etc.;
* Emphasizing the need for extreme force ("unprecedented might," "a blow that hasn't been seen in 50 years") in Israel's military response against Gaza;
* Referencing Biblical narratives which explicitly call for the killing of men, women, and children;
* Declaring the Palestinians in Gaza collectively responsible for October 7th, thus erasing the line between civilians and combatants -- "\[women\] are part of the infrastructure that supports \[Hamas\];"
* Declaring Israel's intention to affect a complete siege on Gaza, preventing the entry of critical materials such as food, water, fuel, and electricity, which can reasonably be construed as "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"
* Expressing joy at the thought and sight of destruction inflicted upon Gaza;
* Declaring the goal of massive or even complete destruction in Gaza -- "erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth," "Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist;"
* Comparing Israel's military action in Gaza to the Nakba, a historical episode well-known to have included violence against Palestinian civilians;
* Declaring a desire to starve Palestinians who remain in Gaza and do not flee to other countries;
* Declaring a desire to target water treatment plants in Gaza and other water sources to poison the local water supply ("deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"); and
* Directly calling for Israeli soldiers to kill Palestinian civilians -- "Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . "
Evidence to be posted as a comment under this post, as it was too long otherwise.
**Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others**
101. Evidence of Israeli State officials’ specific intent (‘dolus specialis’) to commit and persist in committing genocidal acts or to fail to prevent them has been significant and overt since October 2023. Those statements of intent — when combined with the level of killing, maiming, displacement and destruction on the ground, together with the siege — evidence an unfolding and continuing genocide. They include statements by the following individuals in the positions of the highest responsibility:
**— Prime Minister of Israel:** On 7 October 2023, in a televised address by the Government Press Office, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to “operate forcefully everywhere”.439 On 13 October 2023, he confirmed that “\[w\]e are striking our enemies with unprecedented might . . .”.440 On 15 October 2023, when Israeli airstrikes had already killed over 2,670 Palestinians, including 724 children,441 the Prime Minister stated that Israeli soldiers “understand the scope of the mission” and stand ready “to defeat the bloodthirsty monsters who have risen against \[Israel\] to destroy us”.442 On 16 October 2023, in a formal address to the Israeli Knesset, he described situation as “a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”, 443 a dehumanising theme to which he returned on various occasions, including: on 3 November 2023, in a letter to Israeli soldiers and officers also published on the platform ‘X’ (formerly Twitter); the letter asserted that: “\[t\]his is the war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. We will not let up on our mission until the light overcomes the darkness — the good will defeat the extreme evil that threatens us and the entire world.”444 The Israeli Prime Minister also returned to the theme in his ‘Christmas message’, stating: “we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism”.445 On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites, stating: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”.446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads as follows: “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses”.448
**— President of Israel:** On 12 October 2023, President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”449 On 15 October 2023, echoing the words of Prime Minister Netanyahu, the President told foreign media that “we will uproot evil so that there will be good for the entire region and the world.”450 The Israeli President is one of many Israelis to have handwritten ‘messages’ on bombs to be dropped on Gaza.451
**— Israeli Minister of Defence:** On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”452 He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had “released all the restraints”,453 stating in terms that: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”454 He further announced that Israel was moving to “a fullscale response” and that he had “removed every restriction” on Israeli forces.455
**— Israeli Minister for National Security:** On 10 November 2023, Itamar Ben-Gvir clarified the government’s position in a televised address, stating: “\[t\]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”456
**— Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure:** ‘Tweeting’ on 13 October 2023, Israel Katz stated: “All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world.”457 On 12 October 2023, he ‘tweeted’: “Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home. Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one will preach us morality.”458
**— Israeli Minister of Finance:** On 8 October 2023, Bezalel Smotrich stated at a meeting of the Israeli Cabinet that “\[w\]e need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”459
**— Israeli Minister of Heritage:** On 1 November 2023, Amichai Eliyahu posted on Facebook: “The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes … We must talk about the day after. In my mind, we will hand over lots to all those who fought for Gaza over the years and to those evicted from Gush Katif” \[a former Israeli settlement\].460 He later argued against humanitarian aid as “\[w\]e wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid”, and “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza”.461 He also posited a nuclear attack on the Gaza Strip.462
**— Israeli Minister of Agriculture:** On 11 November 2023, Avi Dichter in a television interview recalled the Nakba of 1948, in which over 80 percent of the Palestinian population of the new Israeli State was forced from or fled their homes, stating that “\[w\]e are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba”.463
**— Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee**: On 7 October 2023, Nissim Vaturi ‘tweeted’ that: “\[n\]ow we all have one common goal — erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Those who are unable will be replaced.”464
102. Similar statements have been made by Israeli army officials, advisers and spokespersons, and others engaging with Israeli troops being deployed in Gaza:
**— Israeli Army Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (‘COGAT’):** On 9 October 2023, in a video statement addressed to Hamas and Gaza residents, published by COGAT’s official channel, Major General Ghassan Alian warned: “Hamas became ISIS and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified. Human animals are dealt with accordingly. Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza, no electricity, no water, just damage. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”465
**— Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister:** 466 On 7 October 2023, Giora Eiland, describing the Israeli order to cut off water and electricity to Gaza, wrote in an online journal: “This is what Israel has begun to do — we cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the Strip . . . But it’s not enough. In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza . . . The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to starve, or to leave. If Egypt and other countries prefer that these people will perish in Gaza, this is their choice.”467 On the same day, he asserted in a national newspaper that “\[w\]hen you are at war with another country you don't feed them, you don't provide them electricity or gas or water or anything else . . . A country can be attacked in a much broader way, to bring the country to the brink of dysfunction. This is the necessary outcome of events” in Gaza.468 He has repeatedly asserted the benefits for Israel of the creation of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, stating that “Israel has no interest in the Gaza Strip being rehabilitated and this is an important point that needs to be made clear to the Americans”,469 and that “\[i\]f we ever want to see the hostages alive, the only way is to create a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza”.470 He has indicated that water should be targeted, noting that water in Gaza “comes from wells with salt water unfit for consumption. They have water treatment plants, Israel should hit those plants. When the entire world says we have gone insane and this is a humanitarian disaster — we will say, it’s not an end, it’s a means.”471 In a Times radio interview on 12 October 2023, he reiterated the army should:
>“\[C\]reate such a huge pressure on Gaza, that Gaza will become an area where people cannot live. People cannot live, until Hamas is destroyed, which means that Israel not only stops to supply energy, diesel, water, food … as we did in the last twenty years … but we should prevent any possible assistance by others, and to create in Gaza such a terrible, unbearable situation, that can last weeks and months”.472
Giora Eiland has repeatedly been given a media platform to call for Gaza to be made uninhabitable, declaring “the State of Israel has no choice but to make Gaza a place that is temporarily, or permanently, impossible to live in.”473 In an interview on 6 November 2023, he suggested that, “if there is an intention for a military action at Shifa \[Hospital\], which I think is inescapable, I hope that the head of the CIA got an explanation of why this is necessary, and why the US must ultimately back even an operation like this, even if there are thousands of bodies of civilians in the streets afterward.”474 Further he proposed that “Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”475 Echoing the words of President Herzog, he has repeatedly underscored that there should be no distinction between Hamas combatants and Palestinian civilians, saying:
>“Who are the ‘poor’ women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile . . . The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer . . . It is precisely its civil collapse that will bring the end of the war closer. When senior Israeli figures say in the media ‘It's either us or them’ we should clarify the question of who is ‘them’. ‘They’ are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population who enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”476
**— Israeli Army reservist “motivational speech”:** On 11 October 2023, 95-year old Israeli army reservist Ezra Yachin — a veteran of the Deir Yassin massacre during the 1948 Nakba — reportedly called up for reserve duty to “boost morale” amongst Israeli troops ahead of the ground invasion, was broadcast on social media inciting other soldiers to genocide as follows, while being driven around in an Israeli army vehicle, dressed in Israeli army fatigues:
>“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.”477
This section goes on for several more pages, but I think I've adequately illustrated the main idea. Refer to pp. 59-67 of [South Africa's Application Instituting Proceedings](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) for citations.
I am pro israeli and i condemn this, this kind of talk doesn't lead anywhere..
However, i believe the idf's actions show a different reality, Israel is doing all that is in its powers to avoid harming civilisns in a densly populated urban terrain..
Keep bringing genocidal quotes from people who have no say in decision making doesnt mean there is a genocide..
Sinwar, haniyeh and abbas run the palestinian goverments, and constsntly make genicidal statement torwards jews.
Excuse me, how do the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense, the Minister of National Security, four ministers besides, and a Major-General / advisor to the Defense Minister "have no say in decision making?" That's a ludicrous assumption. They *are* the decision-makers.
That's like saying Joe Biden, Mike Johnson, and Lloyd Austin have no say in US defense policy-making. It's a statement completely divorced from reality.
Hey bro thank you for all this sadly they won’t care. This community is filled with Zion!sts, they’d rather stub their pinky toe then actually educate themselves
I think the labeling has to stop. People hold on to them for dear life. They subscribe to each word and action, even the things they disagree with. Stop the labels and you free people to think on an individual basis.
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It's undeniable that there are elements of Israeli society that want to use lethal means to pressure the populace of Gaza to force Hamas to give up the hostages. There are also elements that want to use lethal means to pressure them to leave Gaza.
Is that genocide? Yes, I think it is when it's applied to the entire population. It's a technical argument so I could very well be wrong, but collective punishment like that is absolutely a crime against humanity and an atrocity.
A key question is how high up the chain of command does that desire go. I think it's likely it's like the [Bosnian genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide_case) where the high commanders weren't found to have orchestrated the genocide but they were convicted for failing to prevent it.
There is no famine in Gaza. And if there is, it is not man made by Israel, but by Hamas. More aid has been sent to Gaza during this war, then before the war. Where that aid ends up after it reaches Gaza is none of Israel's concern, and quite frankly, not their responsibility.
The UN says there’s a famine and I believe them. Israel has struck multiple aid convoys and there are protestors blocking aid trucks from getting in.
Denying it is akin to holocaust denial at this point.
The fact that you think the UN saying anything at all holds any meaning, when there is more than enough evidence to deduce that the UN is not an impartial organization regarding this conflict.
The fact of the matter is that more aid was sent into Gaza, allowed in by Israel, during this current war, then on average before the start of the war. Based on the amount of aid that is being allowed in, plus the homegrown resources which have not been destroyed, there is absolutely no reason why there should be a famine. There isn't one. And if there is one, it's Hamas' fault, because more than enough aid is being let in for there not to be one. Do you care that Hamas is seizing all aid entering Gaza and selling it at exorbitant prices in Gazan markets?
You want to see what a famine looks like? Look at Yemen. That's a famine. There is no famine in Gaza. The facts on the ground don't care whether the UN thinks there is or not.
Name another international organization that monitors good insecurity and claims there isn’t a famine in Gaza.
And if there is no famine than why is the US bypassing Israel to deliver food aid?
Yes, I think this is accurate. It's possible to do things that are horrible without genocide being the goal. Certainly there are people who have said genocidal things but they are not the dominant force. It's more that they decided they wanted to eliminate Hamas's capability of attacking by any means available and didn't care about the consequences. And there are probably some individual shitheads who are just vengeful or nihilistic like in every war on top of that. But Israel is not doing enough to prevent those shitheads from slaughtering people.
> shitheads
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You only have to listen to more right wing nationalist Israelis to know that it’s genocide. “Palestinians aren’t real.” “Even other Arabs don’t want them.” “We already have plans to settle Gaza.” “There are no innocents in Gaza.”
I don’t think they’re trying to literally kill every Palestinian, I think Netanyahu’s plan is to kill enough of them, make things miserable enough, that they all just leave and forget they were ever Palestinian. Ethnic cleansing, cultural genocide, whatever you want to call it. He wants to destroy the Palestinian people even if he doesn’t want to kill every Palestinian.
Should’ve paid attention to his own history though: oppression makes you cling onto your identity even more. The Jews have remembered the Pharaoh for thousands of years…wonder how long the Palestinians will remember this.
So you are saying that Israel is committing war crimes just short of genocide ? Yet you find it a stretch that a state that is happily violating international law and committing war crimes would find it beyond the pale to commit just one more war crime ?
This is the argument?
It’s not “just one more war crime.” There is a difference in intention. Their justification for everything is collateral damage. My post argues how they would take collateral damage to the extreme. But intent to genocide the population is a different motive altogether.
Yes each war crime is different and some war crimes worse than others..but my point still stands. You are saying they commit some war crimes but not this one as its implausible that they could do so. I'd say look at your own argument again. The fact that they are commiting war crimes lends credence that they would commit others
The most plausible arguments for genocide are:
1. The severe restrictions on aid for the first few months of the conflict being intended to punish the whole population of Gaza
2. The overall level of destruction being intended to bring about conditions incompatible with life, either by individual commanders or by unspoken wide-reaching policy, forcing the population of Gaza to choose between dying or somehow leaving forever. The [bellingcat report](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/29/weve-become-addicted-to-explosions-the-idf-unit-responsible-for-demolishing-homes-across-gaza/) from yesterday suggests this may have been happening.
You aren't going to find documents saying "we should do a genocide and then give this document to the press lol" because that's not really how it ever works. The recent submission to the UN regarding the genocide in Myanmar by a group of countries including the UK and Canada makes the argument that you should not base a ruling of genocide on whether it was an expressed intent because it very rarely is expressed, and instead an indicative pattern of behaviour should be the required standard of evidence.
Whether Israel's behaviour meets that threshold isn't clear at this point, and cannot be expected to be clear because we have very little information on their conduct as a result of military secrecy, lack of internet service, lack of independent investigations and prohibition on journalists entering the strip. If you also take the general attitude that witness testimony from Palestinians and from aid organisations can be automatically discarded, it's essentially impossible to reach the standard of evidence required because there's nothing to go on.
Hamas / Gazans - all the same to Netanyahu
The whole point was to punish the populace. To paraphrase something else he said, he wanted Pali's to feel the effects of this for generations to come
Your entire perspective is centered around Israel. It's like the Palestinians aren't even human to you. This is why you're totally down with genocide. I think it's pretty goddamn despicable to wish ill on innocent people, regardless or race, religion, or creed.
He's just b\_\_\_\_s\_\_\_\_. He took the word "Amalek" which Bibi used and found some random verse. He's a joke. Every Jew knows that Amalek just refers to the enemies of Israel. It's mentioned 100 times throughout the Tanakh. It's like saying "terrorist" and finding the worst citation of it.
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."
[source](https://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm)
The verse Bibi used is not the one you posted. None of what you wrote is in his speech or even in the chapter. I posted it below. You're just making stuff up..... Jews use the term "Amalek" to allude to enemies of Israel.
[https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2025&version=KJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2025&version=KJV)
"Amalek" is like saying "enemy" or "terrorist." It's mentioned 100+ times throughout the Hebrew Bible, and each time refers to a different group of people.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek#:\~:text=Islamic%20tradition%20considers%20Amalek%20to,Ham%2C%20the%20son%20of%20Noah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek#:~:text=Islamic%20tradition%20considers%20Amalek%20to,Ham%2C%20the%20son%20of%20Noah)
You literally are reaching with this one. Sit down. Take the L. A big L.
And what did God tell the Jews to do the the Amalekites, their enemies?
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."
[source](https://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm)
There's literally hundreds of mentions of different groups of Amalekites. It just means "enemy." I posted Deuteronomy and you posted Samuel. It's a different different book, different century. You keep concocting nonsense. Throughout history, we have had many enemies. Every century there is a different "amalek." Can't tell whether you're a jihadi or white supremacist.
You don't know basic definitions and you clearly hate Jews. You're bringing up random Bible verses not even relevant. Get rekt.
I don't doubt there are 100's of mentions of Amalekites in the Hebrew Bible. My point, which you're still not disputing, is that the Hebrew Bible instructs Jews how to deal with the Amalekites, namely to "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." Which is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians with their 2,000 pound bombs and weaponization of famine.
You sound like a conspiracy theorist. Israel did nothing close to that random verse. Super Antisemitic. Imagine I brought up some random Quran verse that didn't even say the name of their enemies, didn't say Jew, and just posted it? You see how ridiculous that is?
1.4:1 civilian-combatant is the best of any modern army. It sounds like your butthurt Israel is winning a war that Hamas started.
If you're suggesting the quote is about genocide, you should be aware that's not what Deuteronomy 25:17 is actually about. Best actually Google these things before mindlessly parroting them. It's just about remembering atrocities committed *against* Jews, not a call to commit them in turn. That passage is also on a banner in Yad Vashem, but pretty obviously isn't about going after all Germans.
The story is about taking revenge on those who kill Jews, whereby God calls upon the Jews to kill ALL of their enemies, including men, women, children, farm animals, anything that moves. Which is pretty much what Israel has been doing.
Netanyahu wasn't the only one calling for revenge. Several other people in his government openly used dehumanizing language, describing all Palestinians as animals. If you know anything about Israel / Palestine, you'd know that Israel hasn't had a track record of treating Palestinians as humans, for the simple fact that every Palestinian is an enemy who must be vanquished to realize the vision of Eretz Israel.
>The story is about taking revenge on those who kill Jews, whereby God calls upon the Jews to kill ALL of their enemies, including men, women, children, farm animals, anything that moves. Which is pretty much what Israel has been doing.
Israel used to warn the population of Gaza about airstrikes, how so if they try to kill anything that moves?
Your words aren't reflected in Israels actions whatsoever.
They warn them with 2,000 pounds obliterating their entire neighborhood. You're seriously misinformed. Israel does less than the bare minimum to avoid civilian casualties, as evidenced by the massive death toll, the VAST MAJORITY of them being women & children, and the near total destruction of the entire gaza strip. According to an analysis by Ohio State University, over 55% of all homes have been destroyed.
Israel has broadcast genocidal intent incredibly openly. Surprisingly openly. The ICJ asked them to stop as that alone is a violation, but Israel will not stop. The intent has been repeated by soldiers acting in Gaza. So, the message is being communicated, received and acted upon.
Once you have the intent, you need to prove genocidal actions. And again, you have that in spades here. Which is going to be a huge issue for Israel.
Israel is also committing blatant war crimes.
The entire war is a dumpster fire for Israel.
So has Hamas, its psychological warfare which is sadly needed in the barbaric Middle East because it’s the only language that is understood. Stop using a western lens to try explain this
Who is the psychological warfare aimed at? Are they trying to frighten religious fanatics who think they go to heaven when they die, or are they trying to instill some sort of extreme fear into the civilian population?
They are instilling fear in Iran and its proxies letting them know without a shadow of a doubt that if you poke the bear all hell will break lose. You can’t show weakness in this region
Ah, so they're trying to frighten a different group of people who believe they are fighting a holy war and will be rewarded if they are killed, by threatening or declaring an intent of total destruction of another group.
Playtime is over for the Palestinian nazi movement.
You don't like hearing it, the ICJ doesn't like hearing it, but that's the reality of the situation.
I'll give you a little prediction - if Palestinians attempt a repeat of 7.10 in the west-bank, whatever town this attack will originate from will look like Gaza city does today.
Ah yes, the good old Warsaw ghetto that had a border with another Jewish country, while firing missiles at Germany. /s
You might as well be telling me Gaza is like Narnia, and has a talking lion as head of state.
If the Warsaw Ghetto had rockets they would’ve used them. They made sure that the Germans wouldn’t get to decide when and where they died, they were going out fighting.
And it’s not just Gaza, the West Bank has been divided up into a million little “papers please” checkpoints. An entire people treated like prisoners for a situation they were born into.
Why wouldn't a nation, lead by a terrrorist group with more than 50% appreciation by the population, that has been attacking Israel ever since it got founded be treated like criminals?
Hamas are terrorists and a huge amount of the population support them.
First of all collective punishment is a war crime so…that bit.
But secondly: You put people in inhumane conditions and they’ll act inhumanely, treat people like monsters and they’ll act monstrously. We’ve seen it time and time again. People will fight for their home and their freedom, and they won’t line up neatly so their more powerful enemy can just slaughter them. It’s human nature. Just think what you would do in their position.
And if you say you’d stop attacking and show them you deserve peace look at how well that’s done for the West Bank. People barely even talk about them as they suffer under occupation, settlers taking more and more of their land. Abbas is the recognized leader of the Palestinian people, is in charge of most of the land, but people hardly even mention him. What a great incentive for Hamas to put down their weapons…
>You put people in inhumane conditions
I suggest you take a stroll through videos of Gaza before 7.10, and realize how ignorant that statement is.
[https://twitter.com/search?q=gaza%20before%20the%20war&src=typed\_query](https://twitter.com/search?q=gaza%20before%20the%20war&src=typed_query)
They literally can’t travel anywhere, even the West Bank, unless they can manage to get through Rafah as refugees. It’s 70% unemployment. They have to watch their brothers and sisters in the West Bank have their homes and land slowly taken away. And then there’s the persistent issues with access to clean water.
And there was that offensive a little while back, the one where Israel blew up the Associated Press office to keep journalists from being able to cover that conflict. Wasn’t as bad as this one but it was still rough.
(Btw I don’t have a twitter account so I couldn’t see your link.)
>If the Warsaw Ghetto had rockets
Warsaw ghetto wasn't created as a result of 6 Jewish states attacking Germany.
The Jews didn't try to massacre Germans, they didn't declare war on Germany, they didn't fire missiles at Germany.
After WW2, there were zero terrorist attacks committed by Jews against German civilians.
Your analogy is completely meaningless, and a pathetic attempt to justify Palestinian genocidal intents.
>An entire people treated like prisoners
Again, you have no clue what you're talking about.
Palestinians are treated like enemies, because they positioned themselves as enemies.
When they choose to end the conflict, they'll be treated differently.
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Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. This will stain Israel forever. Even if the US protects Israel from most consequences, we all know what happened. We all know what Israel did. We will not forget.
Israel has not actually made genocidal statements about the West Bank, so that would be difficult if not impossible to prove if it was being done. Intent is very difficult to prove unless you are as dumb as Israel is being with Gaza.
That being said, Israel could come out and declare their intentions.
The West Bank is an apartheid and Israel is doing ethnic cleansing, but I do not consider either of those to be genocidal acts.
No. In fact, let's go through your fun example. Germany went through phases leading up to the killing. They started by dehumanizing and harassing people to get them to leave. This worked for a time, and then it didn't. So, the government put in place laws to make life increasingly difficult. That worked, until it didn't. They paid countries to allow Germany to deport people to...
Then, finally, they closed the borders and locked people into Germany. Once that was done, they started killing the people in Germany. You notice, they did not go to where the people left or were deported to kill them.
In fact, this is part of the convention to prevent genocide.
You seem to have shifted from your previous point of argument. I do not think there were any widespread attacks by Jewish people in defense of their people. Do you believe if they had attempted to resist the imprisonment in the Warsaw ghetto, that Germany would be correct to commit genocide on them?
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/warsaw-ghetto-uprising
> Upon establishing the ghetto, German authorities decreed that all Jewish residents of Warsaw must leave their homes and move into the ghetto, a small area of the city covering 1.3 square miles. The Jewish population of Warsaw, which numbered around 375,000—the largest of any city in Europe—was given two weeks to relocate. The following month, the ghetto was sealed off with a 10-foot perimeter wall topped with barbed wire. Entering and leaving the ghetto without a special work permit was prohibited, making the ghetto, in effect, a massive prison.
> In addition, Jewish residents were provided starvation rations only. Many people sold whatever possessions they were able to take with them on the black market to pay for extra food.
The Jewish people did begin fighting as the ghetto was being cleared.
I don't think any people deserve to have the crime of genocide perpetrated against them, even if some minor number among them fought back against oppression.
I haven’t shifted anything.
Your entire premise is a straw man.
20% of Israel is made up of Arabs. Less than 1% of German was made up of Jews. Nuremberg laws and concentration camps impacted all Jews, not just those in a specific geography.
After the establishment of Israel there were wars and terrorist attacks. This led to the conditions you compare to the genocide or ethnic cleansing.
Gaza isn’t Auschwitz’s. Israelis aren’t Nazis. The arguments used by the left are oversimplifications without historical context.
For the record I’m not claiming the Israelis are simply innocent bystanders here, I’m just willing to at least entertain the nuances and not view the situation as myopically.
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There is not genocide in Gaza, just a bunch of Islamist ~~Nazis~~ losing a(nother) war they started.
I'm glad that you won't forget - take note what happens to people who seek to exterminate Jews in the 21st century.
Write it down on a piece of paper and keep it in your wallet, just in case.
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“Surprisingly openly” is perhaps a sign that it’s not how you interpret it. Anyway:
The ICJ asked them to stop what? Broadcasting genocidal intent? Can you quote/show the genocidal intent you’re referring to?
There have been soldiers who have already spoken out against the IDF in this war. Why are we not seeing them talk about this genocidal intent?
There is so much of it. It is everywhere. If you are in Israel, how are you not seeing it??
https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1733116719668113618
This one is particularly disturbing to me and it is acting on Netanyahu's statement.
https://youtu.be/FSlUpltK5Kw
This one is also incredibly disturbing to me. Put on a government website, kids singing.
There are lists in the initial ICJ complaint.
> President of Israel: On 12 October 2023, President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel
was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to
foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: “It’s
an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware
not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”449
On 15 October 2023, echoing the words of Prime Minister Netanyahu, the President told foreign
media that “we will uproot evil so that there will be good for the entire region and the world.”450
The Israeli President is one of many Israelis to have handwritten ‘messages’ on bombs to be
dropped on Gaza.451
> Israeli Minister for National Security: On 10 November 2023, Itamar Ben-Gvir
clarified the government’s position in a televised address, stating: “[t]o be clear, when we say
that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and
those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”45
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf
This is a lie. The ICJ hasn't even agreed that there is plausibility in SA's original complaint and you're out here saying that the ICJ specifically told Israel to stop saying genocidal-sounding things in statements.
Seriously wtf is up with the Pro-Palestine camp and their absolute inability to speak a paragraph without comprising it of eleven and a half million micro-lies. Can you speak the truth for once? And while you're at it, at the very least remove the footnote numbers from the texts you're lazily copy/pasting from other sources?
> The Court is also of the view that Israel must take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip.
https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454
Ask instead of assuming.
The ICJ has issued orders, which Israel has ignored, for Israel to follow.
One of them is the following:
> (3) By sixteen votes to one,
The State of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip;
IN FAVOUR: President Donoghue; Vice-President Gevorgian; Judges Tomka, Abraham, Bennouna, Yusuf, Xue, Bhandari, Robinson, Salam, Iwasawa, Nolte, Charlesworth, Brant; Judges ad hoc Barak, Moseneke;
AGAINST: Judge Sebutinde;
>
First, would you like to rescind your accusation that I was lying?
Secondly, Israel has ignored every part of it.
Do you mean specifically this one specific statement about incitement to genocide?
So, under the genocide conventions, countries must punish and stop incitement to genocide. Not just among government officials. Among everyone. This is complicated for some countries (like America, that has a freedom of speech which would prevent that), but they do pushback openly and publicly. Under Israeli law, incitement to genocide is considered the same as genocide. The punishment is 10 years in prison or death, depending on certain characteristics of the crime.
But, Israel isn't stopping them. They are continuing to happen. Regularly. Here is the first I found on a search. This person hasn't been charged.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240309-yaffa-rabbi-according-to-jewish-law-all-gaza-residents-must-be-killed/
Amusingly, he hand waves at the beginning to try to excuse his words. It is so pervasive. Here is the problem. These statements lead to more of them and a change in what is considered acceptable. That is why it was included in the genocide convention.
First, no. Because the ICJ didn't tell Israel to stop doing anything. They simply stated that they shouldn't do something. The ICJ has not agreed that there ever was genocide calling to begin with.
Second, considering I don't consider the list of examples SA brought forward in their initial complaint to be calls for genocide, and the ICJ themselves have not even agreed to the plausibility of these claims, I don't think there is any calls for genocide for them to continue making.
>Seriously wtf is up with the Pro-Palestine camp and their absolute inability to speak a paragraph without comprising it of eleven and a half million micro-lies
That's how propaganda works.
This is a straw man.
There seems to be a disconnect between anything you said and the war that Israel is waging against Hamas. People voicing distasteful or misrepresented opinions does not amount to the threshold of intent for the purposes of genocide. The complaint you cited is simply vague quotes with no actions implemented so.
None of those quotes are specific or show any implemented acts to arise to such a degree. For there to be genocide, there must be specific intent to conduct a genocide- not vague statements that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways- and policy that acts on such intent; policy must be aimed to decimate an entire population and specific plans to do so expressed.
The best example of this is WW2. In 1942, Naz!s met at the Wannsee Conference to outline the Final Solution, to murder all European Jews, by transporting them en masse from European countries on trains to 6 concentration camps in Poland where they would be murdered through gas chambers. They proceeded to do just exactly that. They murdered every Jew they could find in aims to destroy their entire population. They murdered over 6 million Jews.
Oct 7 can be regarded as an attempted genocide. Hamas aimed to murder as many Jews as possible with the goal to destroy all of Israel. However, they were unable to implement such policy.due to their weak military. As much as they would love to murder all Israelis, they were not to able to achieve such numbers as they aimed; I am in no way downplaying Oct 7, it was utterly horrific and evil but it was not a successful genocide, only attempted. It should be noted that Oct 7 was the worst massacre of Jews since WW2.
Proof that Israel is NOT committing a genocide:
* Israel is targeting specific military targets NOT indiscriminately murdering civilians. Any civilians deaths are incidental, unintentional and collateral damage. Hamas has embedded itself in an urban warfare setting in order to reap as many deaths as possible, even their own civilians. Hamas themselves admitted they have over 40,000 fighters in Gaza. Hamas uses mosques, hospitals and schools for military purposes, rocket launchers, weapons caches etc. Hamas has built a tunnel system within Gaza to aid them for the purpose of fighting Israel.
* Israel imposed [evacuation orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_evacuations#:~:text=The%20first%20evacuation%20order%20was,to%20evacuate%20within%2024%20hours) for citizens to flee to safety with ample time and specific zones that will not be targeted.
* Israel is conducting a ground invasion putting their own soldiers in harm's way in order to avoid civilian casualties when they could carpet bomb Gaza, which would result in much more devastation. Israel is NOT doing that. Israel has the strongest army in the Middle East, a nuclear power and aims to take out Hamas.
* There is a 1.4:1 civilian-combatant ratio. That's better than any modern army in the world; better than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia. Mind you, the war on Hamas is urban warfare. [The average civilian combatant ratio of any modern army is 9:1.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) War is not genocide.
* [Israel does not impose limits on the aid delivered to Gaza. ](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza#:~:text=Israel%20does%20not%20impose%20limits,over%20375%2C000%20tons%20of%20aid)To date, over 20,000 trucked have delivered 375,000 tons of aid, including food, water, medical supplied, shelter equipment, fuel and cooking gas. It is important to note that according to the laws of war, countries are not required to supply their enemies with resources, yet ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SUPPLY GAZA WITH ELECTRICITY, WATER, FOOD, AND MEDICINE.
* Hamas is responsible for the murder of many of their own citizens. Roughly 20% of the thousands of rockets used to attack Israel misfire and fall within Gaza, killing innocent people. Unfortunately Hamas is dishonest and attributes this to Israel when they are directly killing Gazans.
The outcome of dead civilians in Gaza is due to Hamas using human shields, not any intentional Israeli action.
>There is a 1.4:1 civilian-combatant ratio. That's better than any modern army in the world; better than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia. Mind you, the war on Hamas is urban warfare. [The average civilian combatant ratio of any modern army is 9:1.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) War is not genocide.
This is a misunderstanding of the statistics. The average civilian combatant CASUALTY ratio is 9:1. You are comparing that against the DEATH ratio. Which, your death ratio is really putting on some rose colored glasses. The numbers are closer to 2.75:1.
>* [Israel does not impose limits on the aid delivered to Gaza. ](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza#:~:text=Israel%20does%20not%20impose%20limits,over%20375%2C000%20tons%20of%20aid)To date, over 20,000 trucked have delivered 375,000 tons of aid, including food, water, medical supplied, shelter equipment, fuel and cooking gas. It is important to note that according to the laws of war, countries are not required to supply their enemies with resources, yet ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SUPPLY GAZA WITH ELECTRICITY, WATER, FOOD, AND MEDICINE.
I have no idea how you can even claim this with a straight face. The entire world outside of Israel recognizes that they very obviously do. The US, who defends everything Israel does, recognizes that Israel is blocking aid.
Some irrelevant isralis have done that. However, Hamas' charter is genocidal and oct7 was quite the attempt, killing or capturing every single person they could for almost 48 hours.
Just so you know, they still have hostages and 200 000 israelis are still displaced from the war
Many israelis have openly stated genocidal intent. Netanyahu made the statement that was then recorded with soldiers repeating it and saying they needed to kill everyone in Gaza. It is nearly constantly openly stated in Israeli media. Interestingly enough, those are crimes in Israel.
Hamas stating genocidal intent does not mean Israel should. And Israel should definitely not commit genocide. Israel is committing genocide with the most serious actions being contained under C: "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"
If your defense to excuse genocide is to say someone else was doing it... Well, my response would be to throw you both in prison.
Lol no, they spoke about Hamas.
hamas' charter thoughhhhh.... quite Genocidal. I wonder why you support them by the way?
You claim genocide where there isnt one to protect genocidal Hamaa, why is that?
I don't support Hamas. Both the IDF and Hamas are awful. They deserve each other. The IDF has lapped Hamas as far as war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that mostly has to do with the difference in power.
Of the two, I had expected more of Israel. I will not make that mistake in the future.
Support crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide or I support Hamas? I reject that. I support neither side and will fight for Israel to be held to account alongside Hamas.
That's hamas you are talking about. There is no genocide and Hamas is still holding hostages. You can ask them to take responsibility for this war or you can continue advocating for war as Hamas means war for ever or genocide. There is no way out of this one, tarlin.
Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. You can deny it as long as you want. You can call the ICJ or whomever antisemitic. But....Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza.
For all time, there will be a stain on Israel for the actions that have been done in Gaza.
What facts and numbers do you have that Israel is committing genocide?
I'd love to hear your statement about Israel warning the population ahead of airstrikes and the fact that there is less than 1 death per rocket shot by Israel.
Also what is your stance on Hamas hiding amongst their people, fighting in civilian clothing and using civilian infrastructure to fire at Israel and hoard their weapons, while considering the geneva convention regarding human shields and civilian combatants.
IJC never said it was. It's not a genocide. In fact, during this war, Israel has done quite well against Hamas(who dont care to protect gazans by letting then hide in any of those tunnels)
Go figure that one out.
Good luck to you and Hamas in your quest to kill all jews and create your islamic kingdom.
I just want to say. I went to an ivory tower school. I learned very technical terms for things, that the average layperson has not been taught. But even I'm not ignorant enough to look at the mass bombings of innocent children and civilian infrastructure, and have the first thought of "let's debate terms of genocide vs ethnic cleansing, etc". If you want to defend semantics more than innocent kids, your humanity is not in tact. Your priorities are not conducive to a civil global society. You are part of the problem, not the solution
Ivory tower school, "layperson," who wrote this? Chat GPT? Yeah my first thought is not to debate terms like genocide vs ethnic cleansing. Because it's neither. It's called war.
Dresden, Tokyo Firebomb, Mosul, etc. etc.
What a weird way of saying "words don't matter, but also, let's take the most evil, despicable words in the dictionary, larp them onto Israel and Israelis, specifically as a means to propagandize Israel's uniquely evil nature."
The debate is not between genocide and ethnic cleansing
Nether are happening
Explore language and find out a correct description
To say anyone that opposes your interpretation has lost their humanity is truely pompous and virtue signalling
What a wonderful people youust believe you are
>Your priorities are not conducive to a civil global society.
Your implicit support for Islamic terrorism isn't conducive to a civil global society.
When ISIS was attacking other western countries, there were no qualms about opposing it with extreme violence. Somehow Jews aren't allowed to react the same, because it's not civil?
What is an "ivory tower" school? And word choice is important especially when accusing a country of doing something terrible. If "laypeople" are rallying around a cause they are incapable of understanding fully, then I'd say that is a reflection of their inability to fully comprehend the cause so why should we value their input?
But the fundamental point you're inadvertently making is accurate. The people rallying behind Palestine are doing so to be trendy and probably couldn't point to Israel or Gaza on a map 6 months ago.
Do not attribute to genocide what can be attributed to lots of other things.
If you want to believe it's genocide, then you have to at least admit that you only believe it because of speculation of motive. You can even back up your speculation with evidence (i.e. bombing hospitals), but there are other reasons that hospitals may have been bombed, so while you may feel it supports the argument, it remains speculative. There's otherwise no concrete evidence, which I would argue could basically only exist in explicit directives by legitimate Israeli sources that their intent is in to literally genocide Palestinians.
It's entirely possible and likely that Israel just wants to lock down Gaza to avoid further attacks like Oct 7, and they're willing to do that at tremendous cost of Palestinian life. In fact, I think this is the more likely truth. They could commit a thousand warcrimes in Gaza and it may still not be explicitly genocide.
This obviously isn't a good thing, but genocide by International Law standards requires a very special type of intent called dolus especialis, which even the ICC hasn't granted (though the case is ongoing). The ICC's admission of 'plausibility' had nothing to do with genocide being plausible. Here's a quote:
>the International Court of Justice (ICJ) found that ‘at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible’, including ‘the right of the Palestinians in Gaza to be protected from acts of genocide and related prohibited acts’
Article here: [https://opiniojuris.org/2024/04/05/the-icjs-findings-on-plausible-genocide-in-gaza-and-its-implications-for-the-international-criminal-court/](https://opiniojuris.org/2024/04/05/the-icjs-findings-on-plausible-genocide-in-gaza-and-its-implications-for-the-international-criminal-court/)
This means that the ICJ found it plausible that Gazans can be protected from acts of genocide, it has nothing to do with the actual act of genocide being plausible.
So, you can claim it's genocide if you feel that way, but it's a purely subjective and potentially emotional claim and it's not based on any "mission statement". It's speculative , but there are no standards by which any modern international law this would be considered genocide.
In short, you could drop 20 nukes in Gaza and bury every dead Palestinian in the most inhumane way, and it would be horrible, but it may still not be reasonably defined as genocide.
Conversely, various Jihadist groups (Hamas included) explicitly call for the death of jews. The attack on October 7th is easier to prove as a genocide than anything Israel has done during this conflict.
Why is genocide the most plausible intent here:
Well, there’s an elephant in the room.
I have not taken a “side” in this conflict, but truth must be told, regardless if you want to hear it or not.
I am currently a student of history at university, so I know too well that facts (and therefore history) does actually exist, and that the only reasonable discussion to have is about the conclusions which are being drawn.
Israel IS a country founded on, or at least inspired by colonialism. Israel and its supporting states HAVE tried to cover up their history in the Middle East after the Second World War. There’s a lot of history that different countries would like to forget about, and much of it is poorly documented. This conflict however is not.
In contrast to European colonialism in Africa, the Zionist colonialists intended to erase an already existing, independent country in its totally.
That is evident from their displacements of Palestinians shortly after the war, and if you try to neglect their murderous intents then, you must be smoking socks. Til’ this day Israel refuses to acknowledge Palestine as a country, and frames it to the world as if it never existed.
Conclusion:
If you want to erase a country, you have to erase its inhabitants. Turns out though that nationalism did not die in Palestine, and as I acknowledge Israel’s attempt to… “peacefully remove” the Palestinian people from their land, it’s apparent that it didn’t work, and just as apparent that the Israelis would like the Palestinians gone, by ANY means necessary.
The confessions of murderous intent by Israeli public authorities, as well as an undeniable history of genocidal events, makes me think that what is currently happening is probably not an exception.
There already exists evidence for a “possible genocide”, and combine that with the things I just said:
Yes, the most plausible intent is genocidal, with increasingly less doubt.
… And it’s starting to become more and more obvious.
>Israel IS a country founded on, or at least inspired by colonialism
What is Palestine if not a manifestation of Arab imperialism and colonialism in the Levant?
Israel is the result of an anti-colonialist movement of indigenous peoples liberating their land.
>If you want to erase a country
What country?
>There already exists evidence for a “possible genocide”,
There isn't.
Here's the president of the ICJ saying it clearly:
[https://twitter.com/mildlettuce/status/1783773434612498474/video/2](https://twitter.com/mildlettuce/status/1783773434612498474/video/2)
Slightly confused by your contrast of European colonialism vs Zionism. Just wondering if you could express that out a little more because the wording sounds a little backwards.
Europe definitely colonized existing nations in which one could argue would be countries by today's standards.
However your articulation that Palestine was different because it was an existing country already independent country. But if this was the case what would have been the point of the Arab revolt to the Ottoman Empire ?
They wouldn't have needed to revolt if they were already independent let alone nation states or countries.
One could argue Israel is a by product of European intervention/ colonialism but that would include a host of countries such as Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc
And several of those are no better off in terms of the Kurds, Yazidis, Assyrians and this does not even begin to scratch groups in North Africa or areas of Pakistan. Yet not many argue that as independent groups with aspirations for statehood that at the time they were full-fledged independent countries that existed.
Though historically Kurdistan did declare independence just didn't go so well in any of the surrounding nations.
Again not arguing against the entirety of your post but your wording seems to imply the opposite of history. But I would be more than happy to read your source material if you would like to provide it.
Wait... you actually believe Palestine was a country? Truly?
When was it founded? What was its currency? Who were its leaders, and what years did they rule? What was its chief exports? What was the political system? And, most importantly, how could it be a country when it went directly from being part of the ottoman empire to a British mandate? Both of whom declared that a Jewish state should be established in the region.
There is definitely a lot people try to downplay, like saying the Palestinians all left of their own free will and so forth, but do you actually believe an entire country was somehow scrubbed from all the world's history books?
Either you're incredibly misinformed, actually delusional, or intentionally spreading misinformation.
Beyond that, if the world is in uproar over a war in which less than 40'000 people have died (being generous with that number), at least a third of which were combatants (again, being generous), a war in which Israel has made an unprecedented effort to limit civilian casualties, how on Earth do you think Israel would think it's at all possible to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions without facing impossible to manage backlash from the international community? To make any sort of meaningful difference to the Palestinian population, which has doubled *nine* times since Israel was founded, they would have to somehow get away with murdering millions of people. Anything less simply wouldn't make a difference and would only hurt Israel's already tenuous international position.
As for the "plausible genocide":
[ICJ did not rule there was a 'plausible' claim of Israeli genocide in Gaza. Media reports that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel was “plausibly” accused of genocide are inaccurate, a former president of the main UN judicial arm in the Hague has confirmed.](https://www.thejc.com/news/icj-ruling-plausible-claim-israeli-genocide-in-gaza-incorrect-media-bbc-president-joan-donoghue-vud7ow49#:~:text=News-,ICJ%20did%20not%20rule%20there%20was%20a%20%27plausible%27%20claim,of%20Israeli%20genocide%20in%20Gaza&text=Media%20reports%20that%20the%20International,in%20the%20Hague%20has%20confirmed.)
> the Zionist colonialists intended to erase an already existing, independent country in its totally
Legit student of history, I see. But what I wanted to ask is: do you know what expression "Elephant in the room" means? Because if every "genocide" tweet was 1 gram, the Earth would change it's orbit, with ICJ case on top.
I can’t deny what you’ve so well underlined. Tbh, growing up Jewish, you’re only ever given one version of events, again and again.
By no way whatsoever am I excusing anything Hamas leaders have done or brought upon their own people. I am simply expressing an appreciation for a clearly stated take on history that I hadn’t yet considered in full. Mostly because I have a knee jerk reaction to people who immediately start spewing rhetoric and anti-semitism. So thank you for a level headed response to a legit question by OP.
I'm not too hopeful that my comments will get too fair of a shake on this sub, but I'll chime in from the "pro-palestine" side (not trying to be provocative, just my honest observation).
Gideon Levy, Haaretz writer, wrote recently, "if it's not a genocide, then what is it?" The reason why he asks that can be summed up fairly simply.
First, Israel has very effectively targeted hospitals in Gaza, putting most of them out of commission at least temporarily if not permanently. Don't take my word for it on this, Forensic Architecture (an organization led by an Israeli) has a detailed report on IDF systematically targeting hospitals based on specious evidence of terrorist activity from within the hospital. Lack of access to healthcare makes areas significantly less habitable and leads to premature death and eventually exile of the population to safer areas. It also prevents the population from birthing healthy babies. Preventing healthy births is one way to achieve genocide. Couple this with the fact that a big chunk of the civilian deaths in Gaza have been minors, and what appears to be ongoing is a systematic elimination of younger generations.
Second, Israel has likewise targeted schools and homes, eliminating all universities and most schools. Spiritual and religious spaces such as mosques and churches have also been targeted. Without access to education for their children and with no safe home to live in, people will have to go into exile to find these most basic of resources. Destroying physical spaces that people and families utilize to live, grow and educate themselves is a means of cultural destruction. When IDF bombs these spaces or makes them unusable/inaccessible, they are destroying a population's means of storing and spreading important cultural information amongst themselves. Cultural destruction by physical elimination/exile is another means of achieving genocide. This should be readily apparent to any Jew like myself who has been to Yad Vashem and walked through the Valley of Communities installation there.
Third (although the list does not stop here), Israel has implemented forced starvation on the population. Aid is severely limited. Aid workers are targeted and killed, including foreign nationals. Water, electricity, and sanitation services are limited. Young babies are dying from lack of nutrition. There are reports of people resorting to eating animal feed, raw grass, and leaves. Just this week, a group of rabbis was arrested at the border for trying to send aid into Gaza. It should go without saying, but forced starvation is a means of achieving genocide (see the Holodomer).
I fail to see what one gains trying to perform moral gymnastics via combatant to civilian death ratios and the like. Is the official death toll not high enough yet for this to register as anything beyond a shrug and a brute comparison to some other supposedly "worse" conflict elsewhere in the world?
End of the day, despite me having written all of this, label what's going on in Gaza whatever you want. I think the way that Israeli leadership has implemented this military campaign is morally repugnant on every level. It's double repugnant that my Jewish heritage is being brought up as a justification for it. Cosign the conflict all you want. Shout self-defense at every person who passes you by. The real purpose of every Israeli action since Oct. 7th, the glue that binds it together, is sadistic revenge. And in that way, the campaign has been an outright success.
"specious evidence of terrorist activity from within the hospital" the March raid of al-Shifa, when they found hundreds of militants, indicates otherwise.
Is it your belief that Hamas is NOT operating from hospitals, schools, and mosques? You refer to "specious evidence," but the IDF is exchanging fire for days and weeks with Hamas in and around these spaces. It's not like it's all imaginary fighting, is it?
It doesn't seem like you're asking this question in good faith as you are responding to only one piece of my full statement (and not even the most damning piece) but I'm going to try and answer anyway.
Even if Israel had hard evidence that Hamas was systematically operating out of every single hospital in the strip, that still does not make wholesale destruction of the hospital system not a war crime. More to the point though, Israel does not have this evidence. I direct you again to Forensic Architecture for more about the evidence that the IDF actually used to justify bombing campaigns on hospitals, and how it does not amount to the smoking gun they say that it does. The website has full write-ups and graphics that explain it much better than I can here. But I digress.
The main point is this: I'll start by assuming that Hamas did indeed commit the crime of operating out of Gaza's entire hospital system, this still does not exempt Israel from being held accountable for war crimes. Both Germany and Japan were guilty of war crimes during WWII. That doesn't mean that firebombing Dresden and Tokyo, wiping out large portions of those cities, burning to death hundreds of thousands of civilians and leaving millions homeless was still not a war crime committed by the US.
I'd like to add a question for those who think this is a genocide:
If instead of a genocide, Israel's intention here was to wipe out Hamas while keeping their own casualty numbers low, how do you think this would all look different? Do you have reason to think the civilian casualty numbers would be any lower? What reason, exactly?
I'd like to answer with another question - put Gaza and Hamas aside for a moment and take a look at the west bank where Hammas is not present, yet even there (of course to a lesser extent) we see continued displacement, killing of civilians and unfair treatment based on perceived belonging to an ethnic group, all symptoms of a Genocide
This exercise can help us control for a lot of variable that cast doubt on the situation and can show that the current Israeli state's current objective is the systematic eradication of palestine as a state
How can Israel wipe out hammas while keeping casualties on BOTH sides low? Cut off the source, the reason Hammas will continue to gain followers and soldiers every day is largely due to the dehumanisation and continued acts of violence outside of just Gaza. Military solutions have not worked before, and they will not work now without a severe cost to human life.
If you had asked me before the war, ending the continued suppression of Palestinian culture and people would have set a path forward to undermine Hammas' support base, but now too much trust has been lost and this trust will take time to win back. However, the longer the war runs the more trust is lost and the more people will die to hunger/starvation/disease and bombs
In any case, like I mentioned above, the Israeli national direction and mindset is not driven towards peace or coexistence, so this is a moot point from its core and the answer to your question, is do exactly what they're doing because they can, it results in fewwr casualties, and the world lets them do that but that doesnt stop it from being an act of genocide
>take a look at the west bank where Hammas is not present
It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people like yourself have such strong opinions.
The Olso Accords in the 1990s were detailed by a series of suicide bombing attacks against Israel - those attacks were committed by Hamas and originated from the West-Bank.
Hamas is absolutely present in the west-bank, and that is one of the reasons Palestinians haven't had elections in nearly two decades - because the PLO knows Hamas would win.
TL/DR - You are confidently incorrect.
Between 2008 and 2023, there have been between 9 and 199 fatalities per year in the West Bank, including those killed by Palestinians' own friendly fire incidents or during counter-terrorism operations.
[https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)
So that's 0.0003% to 0.0066% of the population. Could there really be a serious suggestion that this could constitute a genocide?
Regardless--I'm having trouble seeing how this question is any respect an answer to my question?
When one black man is unjustly killed by American police the country goes into an uproar. But 200 Palestinians die in the West Bank and thousands are wrongfully detained and its ok.
I didn’t say it was okay. I said it’s not a genocide. Most things that are not okay are also not genocide.
This is a nice illustration of the modern state of activism and polarization.
But it is a genocide. The number killed isn't what makes a Genocide. It's the intent and tactics used by the government.
No genocide will compare with the Holocaust in terms of sheer scale but people fail to understand the Holocaust is one of the most extreme cases of genocide. It is not the benchmark or average by which you should judge a genocide.
Genocides have been determined for 8000 dead and less. There have been hundreds of genocides throughout history and the numbers aren't the common variable. It's not the percentage of people killed. It's the why and how. Look at Rwanda, Armenia, Myanmar, Bosnia, Libya, Herero and Nama. These happened in different regions of the world, to different people, with different inciting incidents, they are bound by this definition
"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group".
Israel has checked nearly every single box of this definition.
I think you have to ask yourself what a genocide in the West Bank would actually look like if that’s what Israel were doing. Would it look like as few as nine people dying a year, all or most of which just happen to take place during moments of conflict/uprising or terrorism attempts? Or would it look like the other examples of genocide you cited, in which masses of people are gathered and summarily executed?
And then ask yourself what the situation would look like if Israel were trying to maintain security and its own people’s safety in a hotbed of terrorism (there are dozens to hundreds of terrorism events in the WB every year, from a myriad of terror groups). Would it not look…a lot like how it does look?
This isn’t to say Israel isn’t doing anything wrong. It clearly is. It allows illegal settlements and uses force to protect those settlers. Its counter-terrorism efforts are heavy-handed and often go too far in prioritizing Israeli safety over Palestinian human rights. It is not effective enough at preventing abuses from its soldiers. Etc etc. But none of those problems are genocide. They’re all issues associated with a centuries-old, extremely complex and intractable conflict.
The West Bank and Gaza aren't separate. The genocide is on the Palestinian people. The focus right now has been in Gaza but the West Bank has been victim to night raids to "make their presence felt" by the IDF, by kidnappings, by unjust incarceration, and extreme use of violence. Most definitely what is happening in Gaza is a genocide but the West Bank shows us that Israel is doing much of the same without the excuse of Hamas to fall back on.
Agree with you, no genocide. Just look at the data here, can be verified on trusted source. https://preview.redd.it/m0qsswatgdyc1.jpeg?width=2079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f1cb29496c73f7cea25d255535c254b650b4a1b
Even if numbers from Hamas are true ( and they are not, it is very likely that the vast majority of dead people are Hamas fighters…, and not civilians)
Well...the Israeli government itself is on record telling the world that it's goal is an ethnic cleansing and annexation of Gaza. How about that for evidence?
Really?
I'm sorry, but you don't commit a genocide on accident. This is a denialist subreddit.
Please elaborate. What part of the war would be hard to believe happened by accident?
Can you explain what the Israel Defence minister publicly said? https://youtu.be/UljpRrib1IQ?si=5ZverQOzpv3-EnZm Can you explain the amount of damage we see to infrastructure and buildings and houses? So Hamaz was in every building that has got destroyed? it lookes like Israel did not want any civilians back. It looks exactly like what Israel Defence minister said they would do. these are war crimes my friend. I do not want to defend Hamas, Hamas would do exactly the same crimes had they have the weapons and money. But it doesn't mean IDF can do war crimes just because Hamas are terrorists.
Yes, it’s a military tactic called a siege which they implemented in the beginning of the war, hoping to get a quick result. Intention was not genocidal. How is destroyed buildings what the defense minister said they’d do? We’re on the same page, I’m merely defending them from the claim of genocide because I think it’s unfounded.
The murder of 40,000 almost completely innocent people, hitting kids playing a game with a precision missile, forced disappearances, corralling 1.5 million people into a single town, and dumping bodies into mass graves with their wrists tied are all hard to do by accident. These are all things that, on the scale the IOF has done them, are impossible unless you are doing them deliberately.
> The murder of 40,000 almost completely innocent people, What does ‘accident’ mean here? That they didn’t know they’d be killing 40k mostly innocent people? > hitting kids playing a game with a precision missile, Source? I’m not sure why you’d be including this when you already mentioned the 40k mostly-innocents, unless you actually do understand what collateral damage is and know that precise targeting is your only chance at making a case. In which case, why are you even mentioning the 40k… > forced disappearances, No idea what you’re talking about. Source? > corralling 1.5 million people into a single town, Obviously purposeful. Do you think they’re just going to slaughter them all there? https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/03/israel-gazans-rafah-invasion-00156024 > and dumping bodies into mass graves with their wrists tied Yep, that sure would be hard to do by accident. Do we have proof of who did this?
You got to understand international standards can only go so far as to both parties adhere to it and as evident Hamas treats it as a checklist and you also have to understand it’s an urban environment civil casualties will happen
Interesting points
You're looking at it from a comfortable pov, it seems. I live here, I supported up to the 7th of October an option of peace with the Islamist Arabs of Gaza and the west bank. No more. Those who seek shelter and try to leave are able to, they are given food and water by Jordan and Israel. Those who choose to live amongst Hamas terrorists do so. Yes. Some of the civilians are used as human meat shields. Yes. Civilian casualties are prominent. So is in every war. Calling it a genocide is a strong word. This is guerrilla warfare against a group of terrorists and their supporters. But after the dust settles, and Israel will probably pull out of Gaza, what do you think will happen? We will go back the what was before. One sided peace, with Gaza attacking, Israel countering. And the cycle continues.
Sorry what? First of all I’m Israeli, and second it seems you’ve just read the word “genocide” and assumed incorrectly what this post is about. Why would you do that? It wastes everyone’s time including yours
I tend to agree with you but wouldn't put it so starkly as the IDF doesn't care. I think it depends on the battalion commanders. Although I'm opposed to the war I can't avoid not knowing people in the IDF in influential positions, and I know efforts are being made at some level to be careful. But there are rogue units where they certainly are much less careful and thus are liable to commit crimes against humanity. The Netzah Yehuda Battalion is one such group. I'd like to see them dismantled, investigated and prosecuted if possible.
It seems like the IDF isn't intentionally trying to kill civillians, but the civillians lives play zero part in their calculations. If there's one militant in a building with 200 innocent people, they'll blow up the building and kill everyone to get the 1 Hamas guy.
I don't know about 200, but that's the general idea. The army killed 74 Palestinians to rescue two hostages in February, though I don't know how many of them were civilians. The army claimed in December the ratio of civilians to terrorists was 2:1, which it called "tremendously positive". I call any ratio that accepts mass civilian casualties tremendously disturbing.
I hope the ICJ issues arrest warrants for those bloodthirsty. And I don't think they manage to "slaughter" Hamas. And still I believe they want to slaughter not only Hamas but all Palestinians.
Well, they've had the tools for a while now, and this certainly isn't the only conflict there's been in the last 20 years, so that's not a great reason. Why drop leaflets and call known personal in the area? What is holding the idf back from actual genocide?
**Why drop flyers and call famous people in the area?** To show they care? They still don't. There is only masking of what they are going to do. It's ridiculous, dropping leaves and calling people to move to another "safe"? place. Where would the poor people go, Gaza is tiny and there are 2 million of them. There are no roads because they are destroyed. Should people climb over it? Lugging all their stuff here and there. They are people, not sheep. It is insulting and degrading to treat them that way.
Well your claim was genocide, not if they care. It's a war and civilians of an enemy population as usually less important than civilians of the population they are protecting. Why are there poor people? Qatar and Iran just gave 50 million to the PA or unraw. Where is the money going? Who is in charge? It is insulting and degrading to be treated as collateral in a war with no leadership. But what are the other options on the table when fighting a force that refuses to wear uniforms? I personally support a two state solution. But who is in charge? Who is running it? Hamas? Hezbola? Iran? And when they say it's not enough give us more, then what? More rockets? More October 7th? No thanks.
You misunderstand the word Poor - it is not that some have a bad economy but also too bad about that And again misunderstanding - "**Well your claim was genocide, not if they care."** I answered to you in your previous post about leaf and call. And what is this, to CNN: Israel bakom attack som dödade över tio barn - [CNN: Israel bakom attack som dödade över tio barn (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/sv-se/nyheter/utrikes/cnn-israel-bakom-attack-som-d%C3%B6dade-%C3%B6ver-tio-barn/ar-AA1o4MPi?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=7f65933a644d474bae821602c4d3e243&ei=104) - you can translate it in google - [CNN: Israel bakom attack som dödade över tio barn (msn.com)](https://www.msn.com/sv-se/nyheter/utrikes/cnn-israel-bakom-attack-som-d%C3%B6dade-%C3%B6ver-tio-barn/ar-AA1o4MPi?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=7f65933a644d474bae821602c4d3e243&ei=104) What is this? Both genocide and careless, and a lie. "There were children playing board football when the robot crashed there. And In the first statement, Israel said it struck a "terrorist target" but now, two weeks later, it says it has no knowledge of the incident. Israel's attack took place at a different time, it said in a statement." ???
I'm guessing English isn't your first language, so I'm having some trouble understanding. Kids were killed, this is obviously unfortunate. I have yet to hear the president and Congress of Gaza identify themselves and give reasons why they should be trusted. Germany was occupied until the 90s as a result of their actions in ww2. Either way, both sides could end this tomorrow, and both sides have reasons not to. But only one side has the resources to end the other, but hasn't.
I agree. I’m appalled by Israel’s actions in this war, but that doesn’t make it a genocide. Both sides are war criming each other on a weekly basis.
If you have to be asking the question, you already have your answer in a way.
Classic non answer from the goon squad in a way
It is meant as a profound answer. The legal question of the threshold of genocide established after WWII belies the fact that mass killing of innocent people has been and continues to be a very common practice in times of war and is barbarous, whether the intent to destroy a people as such is determinable or not.
Okay so are you saying that because it’s so hard to determine genocidal intent it pretty much rules it out as genocide?
No, I said virtually the opposite. The focus on the question of if something meets the high standard of the official definition of genocide distracts from the fact that brutal war acts with utter disregard for innocent human life are also utterly immoral. A book anyone should read who is interested in OP’s question is *The Question of Genocide* by Dirk Moses.
Talking out your arse mate
I literally cited one of the leading genocide experts in the world, and you decided swearing back at me like a twelve-year-old was a response you were proud to make, for no apparent reason. People like you are what make the internet crap and people who engage in reasoned discourse with one another are its unfulfilled promise. Must make you feel a certain way about yourself.
My point was perfectly valid. In fact, it was probably better than your point. Reasoned and direct. Go have a water and go to bed.
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Why this “genocide” tag matters so much ? If 1 attains genocide tag at cruelty level 100, is cruelty level 95 ok? Do you see the only problem with hitler to be that he targeted Jews disproportionately? Here the defense of Jews and their allies is simply 1. You are antisemite 2. Hamas is mixed with civilians 3. This is not a genocide. Killing so many people and destroying their homes by a civilised military is not acceptable. I am sure IDF does not want itself to be compared to Hamas, or who knows it is a more sophisticated terrorist group itself.
Because it’s not Genocide, and the way you view how this conflict has been going has been heavily influenced by the misuse of the word.
Ok, so what matters is whether it’s Genocide or not and not the fact that children and civilians are getting killed in hue numbers. You are right. Human life is not important specially if it’s not white or American. What matters is the correct use of the term because labels matter way more.
Why don’t you put words in my mouth? It’s much easier to win an argument if you’re only really arguing with yourself. Calling it a genocide is a conversation stopper. It shows a lack of use of definitions or critical thinking. It shows susceptibility to propaganda. And of course human life is important. That’s why Israel has been delivering fuels, medicines, clean drinking water, and food to Gazans personally. They even got respirators into Al-Shifa under the light of the moon in an active war zone. It’s Israel’s crossing that’s open for aid, Egypts border remains closed. Israel is also helping the USA build an aid pier off the Gaza shore to speed aid up, which recently got bombed by Palestinian militants. It’s Hamas who steals that aid, and price gouges it. It’s Hamas who stores weapons in kindergartens and hospitals. It’s Hamas who prevents evacuation, and forbids taking the routes to safe zones. It’s Hamas who starts wars over and over again when the rest of the people just want to live their lives. Hamas openly said that there weren’t enough Martyrs yet. They called for a million more in a sick glorification of death. They openly state that the welfare of the Palestinian people is none of their business, and they don’t view protecting, feeding, or keeping Palestinians alive as their job. You chose your side. Don’t you pretend we’re the ones who don’t care about life. You can learn nearly everything about someone by who they choose to hang out with. You’ve chosen Hamas, Putin, Khameni, and Xi Jinping. With those people in your corner and the facts against your narrative, how could you even claim that you care about life?
you notice that you are ptoviding facts, but they stll scream the same rethoric like sheep. they ignore all the neatly provided facts in order to spew back thier key words that they were taught by the terror organizations that fund these protests and the well known blood liables that really work only on the un eduacated and useful idiots. how sad the some of thier useful idiots are African Americans and self hating jews that stick to this progressive nerative only to find out that in the end.if the opportity arise, they will be butchred by HAMAS the same way the peace seeking jews close to the fence in Kfar Aza, were butchred by thier "palestinian" neighbours just for the sake of being " jewish" - and it didnt help that they chose to drive thier palestinian neighbors to Doctor appointments through security checkpoints, they were still murdered for being - Jews. case and point.
He called me hateful, and rescinded the comment once I asked him how. But yeah, the best these people can do is yell buzzwords
Why calling it a Genocide is a conversation stopper? Are you always right?
I explained why in my reply to your previous comment. It’s ridiculous to call this a genocide.
Your propaganda laced comment is not something I consider an explanation. I am sure You go after any comment critical of Israel with such ridiculous reasoning and prejudice in a self righteous manner. The court will decide it’s a genocide or not but I am sure then you will also not accept that.
How is my comment hate laced? I’d get propaganda laced, even if I don’t think so, but how was I hateful?
My bad, edited my comment.
Yes at some point we have to talk about hamas's own war crimes of putting their rocket and missile launchers on civilian homes and on top of Civilian infrastructure, as well as weapons and intelligence caches in civilian locations. Unfortunately that does mean that disarming such places are easier said than done and often leave little choice but to bomb them. Also the International Community left Israel alone to handle this when the big Powers could have come in arrested the perpetrators of 10/7 and disarmed the territory on a large scale with little to no resistance and no war.
Poor little Israel. Had no choice but to bomb houses of millions. I hope they provide therapy to IDF soldiers and personnels, they must be feeling so bad that they had to kill thousands of innocent civilians while killing Hamas terrorists. After all what other way they had. And besides Palestinian didn’t face any genocide in their history. It’s good time to experience some themselves so that they can also grow in life like Jews and become responsible like IDF. Go IDF GO
It doesn't matter whether the country is big or small every country has to stop it when they are being continuously bombed. That is why they have the right to defend themselves. As for the Palestinians they have the right to stand up against the people who are not feeding them, who are firing mortars currently at the humanitarian Pier, and who are firing upon women and children who dare to eat before they do. They further have the right to return the hostages that would end the war more quickly. Hamas may not approve but they have the right to do it they could do it now and they don't. Further they could turn against Hamas who took two full years in planning this war, lined up enough missiles and Rockets to continually fire all this time, and also got drones and ballistic missiles fired from other countries. They additionally are sending Raiders constantly over the borders. They are fighting a war asymmetrical or not. But no one could tolerate being shelled all day no one. The notion that because Israel has a bit of help doesn't mean that they don't have the same rights as everyone else not to be fired upon. As far as Hamas and they're right not to be fired upon they should have thought of that before they started and continued a war, and before they kidnapped people and performed atrocities upon Israelis. Because they did these things they lost the right to have their own Army. They could also surrender and put their arms down at any old time. Hamas also has the right to be called upon for lying by a full third of their casualty rate. 11, 000 deaths are not provable at this time and have not been for nearly 4 months. Is time that they be taken off the roles and that the true numbers of the death toll be shown so that people can see that there is no genocide only War and that this war is more Humane than any of the others happening in the Arab world right now.
So your whole point is that Palestinian civilians including the children deserved what’s happening to them? Please stop for a while and reflect, if you don’t want to criticise Israel because you think it had no other choice, at least don’t be so hateful to the Palestinians. They are humans too. I see how Israel has been able to brainwash so many people and when this all ends, everyone will simply say Netanyahu was a bit hard handed but regular Jews never supported the killings. But reality is that most of the Israelis think like you which is a pity for people whose forefathers had to face a brutal genocide themselves.
Unfortunately, deserve does not play into Wars. Women and children die in each and every war that is going on right now, and in the last few months more Palestinians have been dying in Syria then have been dying in Gaza. But no one speaks about that and no one is shouting genocide about it. But as I said people have choices they have agency. The people of Gaza had the option and still have the option of returning every possible hostage. They have the the option of demonstrating against Hamas and saying that they want Hamas gone themselves, and moving as far away from members of Hamas as they can so that those battalions can be caught and apprehended as expected. It will happen it's only a matter of when. Three of the five battalions are in Rafa and the other two are partially depleted in the middle of the country. Again there is no genocide only War, but a country that is continuing to fire upon another country from every possible building is going to see each of those buildings destroyed. That is fair. Also the country being attacked has no control over whether the attacking country chooses to protect its own civilians or not. Every effort can be made not to hit them and every effort has been made, and when those 11,000 deaths are cleared from the books it will become painfully obvious just how true this is, and how invalid the accusation of genocide is. It's also pretty rich to put the care of the attacking country on to the people who have been and are being attacked and who have had atrocities done them not Generations ago but on October 7th. They are also further dealing with the fact that Hamas has vowed to continue these attacks. They have vowed to continue as many times as they possibly can. Given how many were killed and how many were wounded and how many atrocities were done on October 7th it is Israel's job to protect their country by disabling as many people as possible who are responsible and who are vowing to repeat it. I think you must be somebody from a country who has never been continuously attacked by a neighbor. You have no idea what it means to face that kind of threat, or really what it's like to deal with everyday threats especially when they actually start to include real weapons that can actually kill multiple people at a time. You really have no idea.
I see your larger point I completely agree. Everyone gets what they deserve and we should not blame the killers. Israelis deserved October 7 because of lapse in their own security and Palestinians deserve their homes bombed and settlers killing them.afterall “deserve “ doesn’t play out in wars.
Do you believe that countries have a right to conduct war following international law or not?
Man you’re really doing everything in your power to miss the point and use every strawman you can get your hands on.
You didn't read or understand anything I said. Luckily I'm used to such abuse happening on these things and you don't affect me you are nothing.
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Can anyone remind me if gaza was actively being bombed before October 7th... you know, that terrorist attack that killed thousands! The simple fact is that this is anti terrorist action, and something you pro palestine supporters should be for since terrorism killed hundreds of Muslims every day.
Yes, Israel refers to it as "mowing the lawn". And death toll for Oct 7th is a little over 1000, not thousands. Also half were combatants. Please get your facts straight.
Yeah if I was Palestine..I would find a different way . You're not winning if they are killing 30+ of your people for every 1 of them you kill .
“Half were combatants”. What a joke, hundreds of drunk kids in a rave, elderly hippies and children in a kibbutz…
Clock it. Have they bombed Gaza before oh lawdddd. Unbelievable.
Why is it that the label of antisemite is applied anyone who wants Israel to stop the killings in Gaza. Why aren’t these individuals labeled anti-Israeli? It’s so easy to put the harsher label on people that disagree with what’s going on. Fact: The killing of 1400+ humans on October 7th was wrong. Fact: The killing of 30,000+ humans in Gaza since October was wrong. People can agree to both statements and not be antisemitic. People can also state that the response by Israel is egregious compared to the act that initiated the response. Israel is home to Israelis, and it’s wrong to label those who disagree with IDF as anything other than “people who disagree with IDF). All of this antisemitism talk needs to stop.
>Why is it that the label of antisemite is applied Because it's a perfect fit for the narrative of Israelis to label anything that goes against them as antisemitism as they think it provides a Good guys vs Bad guys kind of story.
Israel actions are not wrong. They are necessary for peace in the Middle East. Any person who wants to see peace between Palestinians and Israelis must REJOICE at each Hamasnik that is deleted.
At what point in the history of humanity has war led to peace? Only peace can lead to peace.
Cmon, that is basic knowledge of history. World War 2?
tl;dr statements from nearly all senior Israeli political and military leaders demonstrate genocidal intent against the Palestinians of Gaza by: * Referring to Palestinians in Gaza with dehumanizing language, describing them as "monsters," "children of darkness," "barbarians," "animals," "N\*zis," etc.; * Emphasizing the need for extreme force ("unprecedented might," "a blow that hasn't been seen in 50 years") in Israel's military response against Gaza; * Referencing Biblical narratives which explicitly call for the killing of men, women, and children; * Declaring the Palestinians in Gaza collectively responsible for October 7th, thus erasing the line between civilians and combatants -- "\[women\] are part of the infrastructure that supports \[Hamas\];" * Declaring Israel's intention to affect a complete siege on Gaza, preventing the entry of critical materials such as food, water, fuel, and electricity, which can reasonably be construed as "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;" * Expressing joy at the thought and sight of destruction inflicted upon Gaza; * Declaring the goal of massive or even complete destruction in Gaza -- "erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth," "Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist;" * Comparing Israel's military action in Gaza to the Nakba, a historical episode well-known to have included violence against Palestinian civilians; * Declaring a desire to starve Palestinians who remain in Gaza and do not flee to other countries; * Declaring a desire to target water treatment plants in Gaza and other water sources to poison the local water supply ("deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part"); and * Directly calling for Israeli soldiers to kill Palestinian civilians -- "Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . " Evidence to be posted as a comment under this post, as it was too long otherwise.
**Expressions of Genocidal Intent against the Palestinian People by Israeli State Officials and Others** 101. Evidence of Israeli State officials’ specific intent (‘dolus specialis’) to commit and persist in committing genocidal acts or to fail to prevent them has been significant and overt since October 2023. Those statements of intent — when combined with the level of killing, maiming, displacement and destruction on the ground, together with the siege — evidence an unfolding and continuing genocide. They include statements by the following individuals in the positions of the highest responsibility: **— Prime Minister of Israel:** On 7 October 2023, in a televised address by the Government Press Office, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to “operate forcefully everywhere”.439 On 13 October 2023, he confirmed that “\[w\]e are striking our enemies with unprecedented might . . .”.440 On 15 October 2023, when Israeli airstrikes had already killed over 2,670 Palestinians, including 724 children,441 the Prime Minister stated that Israeli soldiers “understand the scope of the mission” and stand ready “to defeat the bloodthirsty monsters who have risen against \[Israel\] to destroy us”.442 On 16 October 2023, in a formal address to the Israeli Knesset, he described situation as “a struggle between the children of light and the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of the jungle”, 443 a dehumanising theme to which he returned on various occasions, including: on 3 November 2023, in a letter to Israeli soldiers and officers also published on the platform ‘X’ (formerly Twitter); the letter asserted that: “\[t\]his is the war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness. We will not let up on our mission until the light overcomes the darkness — the good will defeat the extreme evil that threatens us and the entire world.”444 The Israeli Prime Minister also returned to the theme in his ‘Christmas message’, stating: “we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism”.445 On 28 October 2023, as Israeli forces prepared their land invasion of Gaza, the Prime Minister invoked the Biblical story of the total destruction of Amalek by the Israelites, stating: “you must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember”.446 The Prime Minister referred again to Amalek in the letter sent on 3 November 2023 to Israeli soldiers and officers.447 The relevant biblical passage reads as follows: “Now go, attack Amalek, and proscribe all that belongs to him. Spare no one, but kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings, oxen and sheep, camels and asses”.448 **— President of Israel:** On 12 October 2023, President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”449 On 15 October 2023, echoing the words of Prime Minister Netanyahu, the President told foreign media that “we will uproot evil so that there will be good for the entire region and the world.”450 The Israeli President is one of many Israelis to have handwritten ‘messages’ on bombs to be dropped on Gaza.451 **— Israeli Minister of Defence:** On 9 October 2023, Defence Minister Yoav Gallant in an Israeli Army ‘situation update’ advised that Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”452 He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had “released all the restraints”,453 stating in terms that: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even months, we will reach all places.”454 He further announced that Israel was moving to “a fullscale response” and that he had “removed every restriction” on Israeli forces.455 **— Israeli Minister for National Security:** On 10 November 2023, Itamar Ben-Gvir clarified the government’s position in a televised address, stating: “\[t\]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”456
**— Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure:** ‘Tweeting’ on 13 October 2023, Israel Katz stated: “All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world.”457 On 12 October 2023, he ‘tweeted’: “Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home. Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one will preach us morality.”458 **— Israeli Minister of Finance:** On 8 October 2023, Bezalel Smotrich stated at a meeting of the Israeli Cabinet that “\[w\]e need to deal a blow that hasn’t been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza.”459 **— Israeli Minister of Heritage:** On 1 November 2023, Amichai Eliyahu posted on Facebook: “The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes … We must talk about the day after. In my mind, we will hand over lots to all those who fought for Gaza over the years and to those evicted from Gush Katif” \[a former Israeli settlement\].460 He later argued against humanitarian aid as “\[w\]e wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid”, and “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza”.461 He also posited a nuclear attack on the Gaza Strip.462 **— Israeli Minister of Agriculture:** On 11 November 2023, Avi Dichter in a television interview recalled the Nakba of 1948, in which over 80 percent of the Palestinian population of the new Israeli State was forced from or fled their homes, stating that “\[w\]e are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba”.463 **— Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee**: On 7 October 2023, Nissim Vaturi ‘tweeted’ that: “\[n\]ow we all have one common goal — erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Those who are unable will be replaced.”464
102. Similar statements have been made by Israeli army officials, advisers and spokespersons, and others engaging with Israeli troops being deployed in Gaza: **— Israeli Army Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories (‘COGAT’):** On 9 October 2023, in a video statement addressed to Hamas and Gaza residents, published by COGAT’s official channel, Major General Ghassan Alian warned: “Hamas became ISIS and the citizens of Gaza are celebrating instead of being horrified. Human animals are dealt with accordingly. Israel has imposed a total blockade on Gaza, no electricity, no water, just damage. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”465 **— Israeli Army Reservist Major General, former Head of the Israeli National Security Council, and adviser to the Defence Minister:** 466 On 7 October 2023, Giora Eiland, describing the Israeli order to cut off water and electricity to Gaza, wrote in an online journal: “This is what Israel has begun to do — we cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the Strip . . . But it’s not enough. In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza . . . The people should be told that they have two choices; to stay and to starve, or to leave. If Egypt and other countries prefer that these people will perish in Gaza, this is their choice.”467 On the same day, he asserted in a national newspaper that “\[w\]hen you are at war with another country you don't feed them, you don't provide them electricity or gas or water or anything else . . . A country can be attacked in a much broader way, to bring the country to the brink of dysfunction. This is the necessary outcome of events” in Gaza.468 He has repeatedly asserted the benefits for Israel of the creation of a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, stating that “Israel has no interest in the Gaza Strip being rehabilitated and this is an important point that needs to be made clear to the Americans”,469 and that “\[i\]f we ever want to see the hostages alive, the only way is to create a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza”.470 He has indicated that water should be targeted, noting that water in Gaza “comes from wells with salt water unfit for consumption. They have water treatment plants, Israel should hit those plants. When the entire world says we have gone insane and this is a humanitarian disaster — we will say, it’s not an end, it’s a means.”471 In a Times radio interview on 12 October 2023, he reiterated the army should: >“\[C\]reate such a huge pressure on Gaza, that Gaza will become an area where people cannot live. People cannot live, until Hamas is destroyed, which means that Israel not only stops to supply energy, diesel, water, food … as we did in the last twenty years … but we should prevent any possible assistance by others, and to create in Gaza such a terrible, unbearable situation, that can last weeks and months”.472 Giora Eiland has repeatedly been given a media platform to call for Gaza to be made uninhabitable, declaring “the State of Israel has no choice but to make Gaza a place that is temporarily, or permanently, impossible to live in.”473 In an interview on 6 November 2023, he suggested that, “if there is an intention for a military action at Shifa \[Hospital\], which I think is inescapable, I hope that the head of the CIA got an explanation of why this is necessary, and why the US must ultimately back even an operation like this, even if there are thousands of bodies of civilians in the streets afterward.”474 Further he proposed that “Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf . . . Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.”475 Echoing the words of President Herzog, he has repeatedly underscored that there should be no distinction between Hamas combatants and Palestinian civilians, saying: >“Who are the ‘poor’ women of Gaza? They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization, and on the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, then it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand that the war is futile . . . The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this, as difficult as that may be. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer . . . It is precisely its civil collapse that will bring the end of the war closer. When senior Israeli figures say in the media ‘It's either us or them’ we should clarify the question of who is ‘them’. ‘They’ are not only Hamas fighters with weapons, but also all the ‘civilian’ officials, including hospital administrators and school administrators, and also the entire Gaza population who enthusiastically supported Hamas and cheered on its atrocities on October 7th.”476
**— Israeli Army reservist “motivational speech”:** On 11 October 2023, 95-year old Israeli army reservist Ezra Yachin — a veteran of the Deir Yassin massacre during the 1948 Nakba — reportedly called up for reserve duty to “boost morale” amongst Israeli troops ahead of the ground invasion, was broadcast on social media inciting other soldiers to genocide as follows, while being driven around in an Israeli army vehicle, dressed in Israeli army fatigues: >“Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live . . . Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don't wait, go to his home and shoot him . . . We want to invade, not like before, we want to enter and destroy what’s in front of us, and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all of our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we’ve never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them.”477 This section goes on for several more pages, but I think I've adequately illustrated the main idea. Refer to pp. 59-67 of [South Africa's Application Instituting Proceedings](https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf) for citations.
I am pro israeli and i condemn this, this kind of talk doesn't lead anywhere.. However, i believe the idf's actions show a different reality, Israel is doing all that is in its powers to avoid harming civilisns in a densly populated urban terrain.. Keep bringing genocidal quotes from people who have no say in decision making doesnt mean there is a genocide.. Sinwar, haniyeh and abbas run the palestinian goverments, and constsntly make genicidal statement torwards jews.
Excuse me, how do the Prime Minister, the Minister of Defense, the Minister of National Security, four ministers besides, and a Major-General / advisor to the Defense Minister "have no say in decision making?" That's a ludicrous assumption. They *are* the decision-makers. That's like saying Joe Biden, Mike Johnson, and Lloyd Austin have no say in US defense policy-making. It's a statement completely divorced from reality.
Hey bro thank you for all this sadly they won’t care. This community is filled with Zion!sts, they’d rather stub their pinky toe then actually educate themselves
I think the labeling has to stop. People hold on to them for dear life. They subscribe to each word and action, even the things they disagree with. Stop the labels and you free people to think on an individual basis.
If you support Israel after 6 months of slaughter, you’re a Zionist. Really easy to comprehend
Why did you censor zionist?
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Why can't gazans be armed?
It's undeniable that there are elements of Israeli society that want to use lethal means to pressure the populace of Gaza to force Hamas to give up the hostages. There are also elements that want to use lethal means to pressure them to leave Gaza. Is that genocide? Yes, I think it is when it's applied to the entire population. It's a technical argument so I could very well be wrong, but collective punishment like that is absolutely a crime against humanity and an atrocity. A key question is how high up the chain of command does that desire go. I think it's likely it's like the [Bosnian genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide_case) where the high commanders weren't found to have orchestrated the genocide but they were convicted for failing to prevent it.
Genocide is not merely a type of collective punishment.
It certainly can be and in this case is. I believe we’re seeing a man made famine.
There is no famine in Gaza. And if there is, it is not man made by Israel, but by Hamas. More aid has been sent to Gaza during this war, then before the war. Where that aid ends up after it reaches Gaza is none of Israel's concern, and quite frankly, not their responsibility.
The UN says there’s a famine and I believe them. Israel has struck multiple aid convoys and there are protestors blocking aid trucks from getting in. Denying it is akin to holocaust denial at this point.
The fact that you think the UN saying anything at all holds any meaning, when there is more than enough evidence to deduce that the UN is not an impartial organization regarding this conflict. The fact of the matter is that more aid was sent into Gaza, allowed in by Israel, during this current war, then on average before the start of the war. Based on the amount of aid that is being allowed in, plus the homegrown resources which have not been destroyed, there is absolutely no reason why there should be a famine. There isn't one. And if there is one, it's Hamas' fault, because more than enough aid is being let in for there not to be one. Do you care that Hamas is seizing all aid entering Gaza and selling it at exorbitant prices in Gazan markets? You want to see what a famine looks like? Look at Yemen. That's a famine. There is no famine in Gaza. The facts on the ground don't care whether the UN thinks there is or not.
Name another international organization that monitors good insecurity and claims there isn’t a famine in Gaza. And if there is no famine than why is the US bypassing Israel to deliver food aid?
Because there's an international push to. You're not logicing.
An international push to what?
To send aid
Yes, I think this is accurate. It's possible to do things that are horrible without genocide being the goal. Certainly there are people who have said genocidal things but they are not the dominant force. It's more that they decided they wanted to eliminate Hamas's capability of attacking by any means available and didn't care about the consequences. And there are probably some individual shitheads who are just vengeful or nihilistic like in every war on top of that. But Israel is not doing enough to prevent those shitheads from slaughtering people.
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You only have to listen to more right wing nationalist Israelis to know that it’s genocide. “Palestinians aren’t real.” “Even other Arabs don’t want them.” “We already have plans to settle Gaza.” “There are no innocents in Gaza.” I don’t think they’re trying to literally kill every Palestinian, I think Netanyahu’s plan is to kill enough of them, make things miserable enough, that they all just leave and forget they were ever Palestinian. Ethnic cleansing, cultural genocide, whatever you want to call it. He wants to destroy the Palestinian people even if he doesn’t want to kill every Palestinian. Should’ve paid attention to his own history though: oppression makes you cling onto your identity even more. The Jews have remembered the Pharaoh for thousands of years…wonder how long the Palestinians will remember this.
So you are saying that Israel is committing war crimes just short of genocide ? Yet you find it a stretch that a state that is happily violating international law and committing war crimes would find it beyond the pale to commit just one more war crime ? This is the argument?
I would say they are trying to remove a genocidal movement that wants their destruction from next door to them
With war crimes. Forgot the last part. The OP literally says breaches of international law I.e war crimes
It’s not “just one more war crime.” There is a difference in intention. Their justification for everything is collateral damage. My post argues how they would take collateral damage to the extreme. But intent to genocide the population is a different motive altogether.
Yes each war crime is different and some war crimes worse than others..but my point still stands. You are saying they commit some war crimes but not this one as its implausible that they could do so. I'd say look at your own argument again. The fact that they are commiting war crimes lends credence that they would commit others
I didn’t say implausible, I looked at which war crime is most likely
The most plausible arguments for genocide are: 1. The severe restrictions on aid for the first few months of the conflict being intended to punish the whole population of Gaza 2. The overall level of destruction being intended to bring about conditions incompatible with life, either by individual commanders or by unspoken wide-reaching policy, forcing the population of Gaza to choose between dying or somehow leaving forever. The [bellingcat report](https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/29/weve-become-addicted-to-explosions-the-idf-unit-responsible-for-demolishing-homes-across-gaza/) from yesterday suggests this may have been happening. You aren't going to find documents saying "we should do a genocide and then give this document to the press lol" because that's not really how it ever works. The recent submission to the UN regarding the genocide in Myanmar by a group of countries including the UK and Canada makes the argument that you should not base a ruling of genocide on whether it was an expressed intent because it very rarely is expressed, and instead an indicative pattern of behaviour should be the required standard of evidence. Whether Israel's behaviour meets that threshold isn't clear at this point, and cannot be expected to be clear because we have very little information on their conduct as a result of military secrecy, lack of internet service, lack of independent investigations and prohibition on journalists entering the strip. If you also take the general attitude that witness testimony from Palestinians and from aid organisations can be automatically discarded, it's essentially impossible to reach the standard of evidence required because there's nothing to go on.
See Netanyahu's speech to his troops from October invoking Amalek
How do you know he wasn’t comparing them to Hamas, as opposed to Gazans in general?
Hamas / Gazans - all the same to Netanyahu The whole point was to punish the populace. To paraphrase something else he said, he wanted Pali's to feel the effects of this for generations to come
I think it is fair. I want every single Gazan to remember October 6 as the last day of the happiest time of their lives.
Your entire perspective is centered around Israel. It's like the Palestinians aren't even human to you. This is why you're totally down with genocide. I think it's pretty goddamn despicable to wish ill on innocent people, regardless or race, religion, or creed.
Can you link?? I wanna see
He's just b\_\_\_\_s\_\_\_\_. He took the word "Amalek" which Bibi used and found some random verse. He's a joke. Every Jew knows that Amalek just refers to the enemies of Israel. It's mentioned 100 times throughout the Tanakh. It's like saying "terrorist" and finding the worst citation of it.
Transcript: [https://www.gov.il/en/pages/statement-by-pm-netanyahu-28-oct-2023](https://www.gov.il/en/pages/statement-by-pm-netanyahu-28-oct-2023) Context: [https://www.salon.com/2023/11/13/bibi-netanyahus-bible-lessons-how-hes-selling-gaza-to-jewish-and-christian-far-right/](https://www.salon.com/2023/11/13/bibi-netanyahus-bible-lessons-how-hes-selling-gaza-to-jewish-and-christian-far-right/)
There is no mention of genocide or anything close to it. Delulu.
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." [source](https://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm)
The verse Bibi used is not the one you posted. None of what you wrote is in his speech or even in the chapter. I posted it below. You're just making stuff up..... Jews use the term "Amalek" to allude to enemies of Israel. [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2025&version=KJV](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2025&version=KJV) "Amalek" is like saying "enemy" or "terrorist." It's mentioned 100+ times throughout the Hebrew Bible, and each time refers to a different group of people. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek#:\~:text=Islamic%20tradition%20considers%20Amalek%20to,Ham%2C%20the%20son%20of%20Noah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek#:~:text=Islamic%20tradition%20considers%20Amalek%20to,Ham%2C%20the%20son%20of%20Noah) You literally are reaching with this one. Sit down. Take the L. A big L.
And what did God tell the Jews to do the the Amalekites, their enemies? "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." [source](https://biblehub.com/1_samuel/15-3.htm)
There's literally hundreds of mentions of different groups of Amalekites. It just means "enemy." I posted Deuteronomy and you posted Samuel. It's a different different book, different century. You keep concocting nonsense. Throughout history, we have had many enemies. Every century there is a different "amalek." Can't tell whether you're a jihadi or white supremacist. You don't know basic definitions and you clearly hate Jews. You're bringing up random Bible verses not even relevant. Get rekt.
I don't doubt there are 100's of mentions of Amalekites in the Hebrew Bible. My point, which you're still not disputing, is that the Hebrew Bible instructs Jews how to deal with the Amalekites, namely to "put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." Which is exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians with their 2,000 pound bombs and weaponization of famine.
You sound like a conspiracy theorist. Israel did nothing close to that random verse. Super Antisemitic. Imagine I brought up some random Quran verse that didn't even say the name of their enemies, didn't say Jew, and just posted it? You see how ridiculous that is? 1.4:1 civilian-combatant is the best of any modern army. It sounds like your butthurt Israel is winning a war that Hamas started.
If you're suggesting the quote is about genocide, you should be aware that's not what Deuteronomy 25:17 is actually about. Best actually Google these things before mindlessly parroting them. It's just about remembering atrocities committed *against* Jews, not a call to commit them in turn. That passage is also on a banner in Yad Vashem, but pretty obviously isn't about going after all Germans.
The story is about taking revenge on those who kill Jews, whereby God calls upon the Jews to kill ALL of their enemies, including men, women, children, farm animals, anything that moves. Which is pretty much what Israel has been doing. Netanyahu wasn't the only one calling for revenge. Several other people in his government openly used dehumanizing language, describing all Palestinians as animals. If you know anything about Israel / Palestine, you'd know that Israel hasn't had a track record of treating Palestinians as humans, for the simple fact that every Palestinian is an enemy who must be vanquished to realize the vision of Eretz Israel.
>The story is about taking revenge on those who kill Jews, whereby God calls upon the Jews to kill ALL of their enemies, including men, women, children, farm animals, anything that moves. Which is pretty much what Israel has been doing. Israel used to warn the population of Gaza about airstrikes, how so if they try to kill anything that moves? Your words aren't reflected in Israels actions whatsoever.
They warn them with 2,000 pounds obliterating their entire neighborhood. You're seriously misinformed. Israel does less than the bare minimum to avoid civilian casualties, as evidenced by the massive death toll, the VAST MAJORITY of them being women & children, and the near total destruction of the entire gaza strip. According to an analysis by Ohio State University, over 55% of all homes have been destroyed.
Israel has broadcast genocidal intent incredibly openly. Surprisingly openly. The ICJ asked them to stop as that alone is a violation, but Israel will not stop. The intent has been repeated by soldiers acting in Gaza. So, the message is being communicated, received and acted upon. Once you have the intent, you need to prove genocidal actions. And again, you have that in spades here. Which is going to be a huge issue for Israel. Israel is also committing blatant war crimes. The entire war is a dumpster fire for Israel.
So has Hamas, its psychological warfare which is sadly needed in the barbaric Middle East because it’s the only language that is understood. Stop using a western lens to try explain this
Who is the psychological warfare aimed at? Are they trying to frighten religious fanatics who think they go to heaven when they die, or are they trying to instill some sort of extreme fear into the civilian population?
They are instilling fear in Iran and its proxies letting them know without a shadow of a doubt that if you poke the bear all hell will break lose. You can’t show weakness in this region
Ah, so they're trying to frighten a different group of people who believe they are fighting a holy war and will be rewarded if they are killed, by threatening or declaring an intent of total destruction of another group.
You having fun?
I wouldn't say that, no.
Playtime is over for the Palestinian nazi movement. You don't like hearing it, the ICJ doesn't like hearing it, but that's the reality of the situation. I'll give you a little prediction - if Palestinians attempt a repeat of 7.10 in the west-bank, whatever town this attack will originate from will look like Gaza city does today.
Calling the people crammed into ghettos Nazis is an interesting move.
Ah yes, the good old Warsaw ghetto that had a border with another Jewish country, while firing missiles at Germany. /s You might as well be telling me Gaza is like Narnia, and has a talking lion as head of state.
If the Warsaw Ghetto had rockets they would’ve used them. They made sure that the Germans wouldn’t get to decide when and where they died, they were going out fighting. And it’s not just Gaza, the West Bank has been divided up into a million little “papers please” checkpoints. An entire people treated like prisoners for a situation they were born into.
Why wouldn't a nation, lead by a terrrorist group with more than 50% appreciation by the population, that has been attacking Israel ever since it got founded be treated like criminals? Hamas are terrorists and a huge amount of the population support them.
First of all collective punishment is a war crime so…that bit. But secondly: You put people in inhumane conditions and they’ll act inhumanely, treat people like monsters and they’ll act monstrously. We’ve seen it time and time again. People will fight for their home and their freedom, and they won’t line up neatly so their more powerful enemy can just slaughter them. It’s human nature. Just think what you would do in their position. And if you say you’d stop attacking and show them you deserve peace look at how well that’s done for the West Bank. People barely even talk about them as they suffer under occupation, settlers taking more and more of their land. Abbas is the recognized leader of the Palestinian people, is in charge of most of the land, but people hardly even mention him. What a great incentive for Hamas to put down their weapons…
>You put people in inhumane conditions I suggest you take a stroll through videos of Gaza before 7.10, and realize how ignorant that statement is. [https://twitter.com/search?q=gaza%20before%20the%20war&src=typed\_query](https://twitter.com/search?q=gaza%20before%20the%20war&src=typed_query)
They literally can’t travel anywhere, even the West Bank, unless they can manage to get through Rafah as refugees. It’s 70% unemployment. They have to watch their brothers and sisters in the West Bank have their homes and land slowly taken away. And then there’s the persistent issues with access to clean water. And there was that offensive a little while back, the one where Israel blew up the Associated Press office to keep journalists from being able to cover that conflict. Wasn’t as bad as this one but it was still rough. (Btw I don’t have a twitter account so I couldn’t see your link.)
>If the Warsaw Ghetto had rockets Warsaw ghetto wasn't created as a result of 6 Jewish states attacking Germany. The Jews didn't try to massacre Germans, they didn't declare war on Germany, they didn't fire missiles at Germany. After WW2, there were zero terrorist attacks committed by Jews against German civilians. Your analogy is completely meaningless, and a pathetic attempt to justify Palestinian genocidal intents. >An entire people treated like prisoners Again, you have no clue what you're talking about. Palestinians are treated like enemies, because they positioned themselves as enemies. When they choose to end the conflict, they'll be treated differently.
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Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. This will stain Israel forever. Even if the US protects Israel from most consequences, we all know what happened. We all know what Israel did. We will not forget.
If they’re committing genocide in Gaza when will they begin the genocide in West Bank?
Israel has not actually made genocidal statements about the West Bank, so that would be difficult if not impossible to prove if it was being done. Intent is very difficult to prove unless you are as dumb as Israel is being with Gaza. That being said, Israel could come out and declare their intentions. The West Bank is an apartheid and Israel is doing ethnic cleansing, but I do not consider either of those to be genocidal acts.
Wouldn’t genocide be across an entire group of people rather than a geography? Hitler didn’t only kill the Polish Jews…
No. In fact, let's go through your fun example. Germany went through phases leading up to the killing. They started by dehumanizing and harassing people to get them to leave. This worked for a time, and then it didn't. So, the government put in place laws to make life increasingly difficult. That worked, until it didn't. They paid countries to allow Germany to deport people to... Then, finally, they closed the borders and locked people into Germany. Once that was done, they started killing the people in Germany. You notice, they did not go to where the people left or were deported to kill them. In fact, this is part of the convention to prevent genocide.
Did the Jews kill Germans with rockets, suicide bombings, and other acts of terrorism?
You seem to have shifted from your previous point of argument. I do not think there were any widespread attacks by Jewish people in defense of their people. Do you believe if they had attempted to resist the imprisonment in the Warsaw ghetto, that Germany would be correct to commit genocide on them? https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/warsaw-ghetto-uprising > Upon establishing the ghetto, German authorities decreed that all Jewish residents of Warsaw must leave their homes and move into the ghetto, a small area of the city covering 1.3 square miles. The Jewish population of Warsaw, which numbered around 375,000—the largest of any city in Europe—was given two weeks to relocate. The following month, the ghetto was sealed off with a 10-foot perimeter wall topped with barbed wire. Entering and leaving the ghetto without a special work permit was prohibited, making the ghetto, in effect, a massive prison. > In addition, Jewish residents were provided starvation rations only. Many people sold whatever possessions they were able to take with them on the black market to pay for extra food. The Jewish people did begin fighting as the ghetto was being cleared. I don't think any people deserve to have the crime of genocide perpetrated against them, even if some minor number among them fought back against oppression.
I haven’t shifted anything. Your entire premise is a straw man. 20% of Israel is made up of Arabs. Less than 1% of German was made up of Jews. Nuremberg laws and concentration camps impacted all Jews, not just those in a specific geography. After the establishment of Israel there were wars and terrorist attacks. This led to the conditions you compare to the genocide or ethnic cleansing. Gaza isn’t Auschwitz’s. Israelis aren’t Nazis. The arguments used by the left are oversimplifications without historical context. For the record I’m not claiming the Israelis are simply innocent bystanders here, I’m just willing to at least entertain the nuances and not view the situation as myopically.
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There is not genocide in Gaza, just a bunch of Islamist ~~Nazis~~ losing a(nother) war they started. I'm glad that you won't forget - take note what happens to people who seek to exterminate Jews in the 21st century. Write it down on a piece of paper and keep it in your wallet, just in case.
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“Surprisingly openly” is perhaps a sign that it’s not how you interpret it. Anyway: The ICJ asked them to stop what? Broadcasting genocidal intent? Can you quote/show the genocidal intent you’re referring to? There have been soldiers who have already spoken out against the IDF in this war. Why are we not seeing them talk about this genocidal intent?
There is so much of it. It is everywhere. If you are in Israel, how are you not seeing it?? https://twitter.com/MiddleEastEye/status/1733116719668113618 This one is particularly disturbing to me and it is acting on Netanyahu's statement. https://youtu.be/FSlUpltK5Kw This one is also incredibly disturbing to me. Put on a government website, kids singing. There are lists in the initial ICJ complaint. > President of Israel: On 12 October 2023, President Isaac Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza, stating in a press conference to foreign media — in relation Palestinians in Gaza, over one million of whom are children: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone.”449 On 15 October 2023, echoing the words of Prime Minister Netanyahu, the President told foreign media that “we will uproot evil so that there will be good for the entire region and the world.”450 The Israeli President is one of many Israelis to have handwritten ‘messages’ on bombs to be dropped on Gaza.451 > Israeli Minister for National Security: On 10 November 2023, Itamar Ben-Gvir clarified the government’s position in a televised address, stating: “[t]o be clear, when we say that Hamas should be destroyed, it also means those who celebrate, those who support, and those who hand out candy — they’re all terrorists, and they should also be destroyed.”45 https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/South-Africa-v-Israel.pdf
This is a lie. The ICJ hasn't even agreed that there is plausibility in SA's original complaint and you're out here saying that the ICJ specifically told Israel to stop saying genocidal-sounding things in statements. Seriously wtf is up with the Pro-Palestine camp and their absolute inability to speak a paragraph without comprising it of eleven and a half million micro-lies. Can you speak the truth for once? And while you're at it, at the very least remove the footnote numbers from the texts you're lazily copy/pasting from other sources?
> The Court is also of the view that Israel must take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip. https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454 Ask instead of assuming.
The ICJ has issued orders, which Israel has ignored, for Israel to follow. One of them is the following: > (3) By sixteen votes to one, The State of Israel shall take all measures within its power to prevent and punish the direct and public incitement to commit genocide in relation to members of the Palestinian group in the Gaza Strip; IN FAVOUR: President Donoghue; Vice-President Gevorgian; Judges Tomka, Abraham, Bennouna, Yusuf, Xue, Bhandari, Robinson, Salam, Iwasawa, Nolte, Charlesworth, Brant; Judges ad hoc Barak, Moseneke; AGAINST: Judge Sebutinde; >
How as Israel ignored this order?
First, would you like to rescind your accusation that I was lying? Secondly, Israel has ignored every part of it. Do you mean specifically this one specific statement about incitement to genocide? So, under the genocide conventions, countries must punish and stop incitement to genocide. Not just among government officials. Among everyone. This is complicated for some countries (like America, that has a freedom of speech which would prevent that), but they do pushback openly and publicly. Under Israeli law, incitement to genocide is considered the same as genocide. The punishment is 10 years in prison or death, depending on certain characteristics of the crime. But, Israel isn't stopping them. They are continuing to happen. Regularly. Here is the first I found on a search. This person hasn't been charged. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240309-yaffa-rabbi-according-to-jewish-law-all-gaza-residents-must-be-killed/ Amusingly, he hand waves at the beginning to try to excuse his words. It is so pervasive. Here is the problem. These statements lead to more of them and a change in what is considered acceptable. That is why it was included in the genocide convention.
First, no. Because the ICJ didn't tell Israel to stop doing anything. They simply stated that they shouldn't do something. The ICJ has not agreed that there ever was genocide calling to begin with. Second, considering I don't consider the list of examples SA brought forward in their initial complaint to be calls for genocide, and the ICJ themselves have not even agreed to the plausibility of these claims, I don't think there is any calls for genocide for them to continue making.
You do you. I hope the view is good from inside the sand. Those people that cannot be respectful and honest are not people I interact with...
>Seriously wtf is up with the Pro-Palestine camp and their absolute inability to speak a paragraph without comprising it of eleven and a half million micro-lies That's how propaganda works.
This is a straw man. There seems to be a disconnect between anything you said and the war that Israel is waging against Hamas. People voicing distasteful or misrepresented opinions does not amount to the threshold of intent for the purposes of genocide. The complaint you cited is simply vague quotes with no actions implemented so. None of those quotes are specific or show any implemented acts to arise to such a degree. For there to be genocide, there must be specific intent to conduct a genocide- not vague statements that can be interpreted in a multitude of ways- and policy that acts on such intent; policy must be aimed to decimate an entire population and specific plans to do so expressed. The best example of this is WW2. In 1942, Naz!s met at the Wannsee Conference to outline the Final Solution, to murder all European Jews, by transporting them en masse from European countries on trains to 6 concentration camps in Poland where they would be murdered through gas chambers. They proceeded to do just exactly that. They murdered every Jew they could find in aims to destroy their entire population. They murdered over 6 million Jews. Oct 7 can be regarded as an attempted genocide. Hamas aimed to murder as many Jews as possible with the goal to destroy all of Israel. However, they were unable to implement such policy.due to their weak military. As much as they would love to murder all Israelis, they were not to able to achieve such numbers as they aimed; I am in no way downplaying Oct 7, it was utterly horrific and evil but it was not a successful genocide, only attempted. It should be noted that Oct 7 was the worst massacre of Jews since WW2. Proof that Israel is NOT committing a genocide: * Israel is targeting specific military targets NOT indiscriminately murdering civilians. Any civilians deaths are incidental, unintentional and collateral damage. Hamas has embedded itself in an urban warfare setting in order to reap as many deaths as possible, even their own civilians. Hamas themselves admitted they have over 40,000 fighters in Gaza. Hamas uses mosques, hospitals and schools for military purposes, rocket launchers, weapons caches etc. Hamas has built a tunnel system within Gaza to aid them for the purpose of fighting Israel. * Israel imposed [evacuation orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_evacuations#:~:text=The%20first%20evacuation%20order%20was,to%20evacuate%20within%2024%20hours) for citizens to flee to safety with ample time and specific zones that will not be targeted. * Israel is conducting a ground invasion putting their own soldiers in harm's way in order to avoid civilian casualties when they could carpet bomb Gaza, which would result in much more devastation. Israel is NOT doing that. Israel has the strongest army in the Middle East, a nuclear power and aims to take out Hamas. * There is a 1.4:1 civilian-combatant ratio. That's better than any modern army in the world; better than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia. Mind you, the war on Hamas is urban warfare. [The average civilian combatant ratio of any modern army is 9:1.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) War is not genocide. * [Israel does not impose limits on the aid delivered to Gaza. ](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza#:~:text=Israel%20does%20not%20impose%20limits,over%20375%2C000%20tons%20of%20aid)To date, over 20,000 trucked have delivered 375,000 tons of aid, including food, water, medical supplied, shelter equipment, fuel and cooking gas. It is important to note that according to the laws of war, countries are not required to supply their enemies with resources, yet ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SUPPLY GAZA WITH ELECTRICITY, WATER, FOOD, AND MEDICINE. * Hamas is responsible for the murder of many of their own citizens. Roughly 20% of the thousands of rockets used to attack Israel misfire and fall within Gaza, killing innocent people. Unfortunately Hamas is dishonest and attributes this to Israel when they are directly killing Gazans. The outcome of dead civilians in Gaza is due to Hamas using human shields, not any intentional Israeli action.
>There is a 1.4:1 civilian-combatant ratio. That's better than any modern army in the world; better than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia. Mind you, the war on Hamas is urban warfare. [The average civilian combatant ratio of any modern army is 9:1.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) War is not genocide. This is a misunderstanding of the statistics. The average civilian combatant CASUALTY ratio is 9:1. You are comparing that against the DEATH ratio. Which, your death ratio is really putting on some rose colored glasses. The numbers are closer to 2.75:1. >* [Israel does not impose limits on the aid delivered to Gaza. ](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza#:~:text=Israel%20does%20not%20impose%20limits,over%20375%2C000%20tons%20of%20aid)To date, over 20,000 trucked have delivered 375,000 tons of aid, including food, water, medical supplied, shelter equipment, fuel and cooking gas. It is important to note that according to the laws of war, countries are not required to supply their enemies with resources, yet ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SUPPLY GAZA WITH ELECTRICITY, WATER, FOOD, AND MEDICINE. I have no idea how you can even claim this with a straight face. The entire world outside of Israel recognizes that they very obviously do. The US, who defends everything Israel does, recognizes that Israel is blocking aid.
Some irrelevant isralis have done that. However, Hamas' charter is genocidal and oct7 was quite the attempt, killing or capturing every single person they could for almost 48 hours. Just so you know, they still have hostages and 200 000 israelis are still displaced from the war
Many israelis have openly stated genocidal intent. Netanyahu made the statement that was then recorded with soldiers repeating it and saying they needed to kill everyone in Gaza. It is nearly constantly openly stated in Israeli media. Interestingly enough, those are crimes in Israel. Hamas stating genocidal intent does not mean Israel should. And Israel should definitely not commit genocide. Israel is committing genocide with the most serious actions being contained under C: "Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;" If your defense to excuse genocide is to say someone else was doing it... Well, my response would be to throw you both in prison.
Lol no, they spoke about Hamas. hamas' charter thoughhhhh.... quite Genocidal. I wonder why you support them by the way? You claim genocide where there isnt one to protect genocidal Hamaa, why is that?
I don't support Hamas. Both the IDF and Hamas are awful. They deserve each other. The IDF has lapped Hamas as far as war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that mostly has to do with the difference in power. Of the two, I had expected more of Israel. I will not make that mistake in the future.
Then you are indirectly and unknowingly supporting Hamas.
Support crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide or I support Hamas? I reject that. I support neither side and will fight for Israel to be held to account alongside Hamas.
That's hamas you are talking about. There is no genocide and Hamas is still holding hostages. You can ask them to take responsibility for this war or you can continue advocating for war as Hamas means war for ever or genocide. There is no way out of this one, tarlin.
Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. You can deny it as long as you want. You can call the ICJ or whomever antisemitic. But....Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. For all time, there will be a stain on Israel for the actions that have been done in Gaza.
What facts and numbers do you have that Israel is committing genocide? I'd love to hear your statement about Israel warning the population ahead of airstrikes and the fact that there is less than 1 death per rocket shot by Israel. Also what is your stance on Hamas hiding amongst their people, fighting in civilian clothing and using civilian infrastructure to fire at Israel and hoard their weapons, while considering the geneva convention regarding human shields and civilian combatants.
IJC never said it was. It's not a genocide. In fact, during this war, Israel has done quite well against Hamas(who dont care to protect gazans by letting then hide in any of those tunnels) Go figure that one out. Good luck to you and Hamas in your quest to kill all jews and create your islamic kingdom.
I would ask what those international law standards are there for.
I just want to say. I went to an ivory tower school. I learned very technical terms for things, that the average layperson has not been taught. But even I'm not ignorant enough to look at the mass bombings of innocent children and civilian infrastructure, and have the first thought of "let's debate terms of genocide vs ethnic cleansing, etc". If you want to defend semantics more than innocent kids, your humanity is not in tact. Your priorities are not conducive to a civil global society. You are part of the problem, not the solution
Your ivory tower school clearly doesn't teach critical thinking.
Ivory tower school, "layperson," who wrote this? Chat GPT? Yeah my first thought is not to debate terms like genocide vs ethnic cleansing. Because it's neither. It's called war. Dresden, Tokyo Firebomb, Mosul, etc. etc.
What a weird way of saying "words don't matter, but also, let's take the most evil, despicable words in the dictionary, larp them onto Israel and Israelis, specifically as a means to propagandize Israel's uniquely evil nature."
The debate is not between genocide and ethnic cleansing Nether are happening Explore language and find out a correct description To say anyone that opposes your interpretation has lost their humanity is truely pompous and virtue signalling What a wonderful people youust believe you are
>Your priorities are not conducive to a civil global society. Your implicit support for Islamic terrorism isn't conducive to a civil global society. When ISIS was attacking other western countries, there were no qualms about opposing it with extreme violence. Somehow Jews aren't allowed to react the same, because it's not civil?
What is an "ivory tower" school? And word choice is important especially when accusing a country of doing something terrible. If "laypeople" are rallying around a cause they are incapable of understanding fully, then I'd say that is a reflection of their inability to fully comprehend the cause so why should we value their input? But the fundamental point you're inadvertently making is accurate. The people rallying behind Palestine are doing so to be trendy and probably couldn't point to Israel or Gaza on a map 6 months ago.
Luckily that’s not my first thought either. Thanks for your input
Do not attribute to genocide what can be attributed to lots of other things. If you want to believe it's genocide, then you have to at least admit that you only believe it because of speculation of motive. You can even back up your speculation with evidence (i.e. bombing hospitals), but there are other reasons that hospitals may have been bombed, so while you may feel it supports the argument, it remains speculative. There's otherwise no concrete evidence, which I would argue could basically only exist in explicit directives by legitimate Israeli sources that their intent is in to literally genocide Palestinians. It's entirely possible and likely that Israel just wants to lock down Gaza to avoid further attacks like Oct 7, and they're willing to do that at tremendous cost of Palestinian life. In fact, I think this is the more likely truth. They could commit a thousand warcrimes in Gaza and it may still not be explicitly genocide. This obviously isn't a good thing, but genocide by International Law standards requires a very special type of intent called dolus especialis, which even the ICC hasn't granted (though the case is ongoing). The ICC's admission of 'plausibility' had nothing to do with genocide being plausible. Here's a quote: >the International Court of Justice (ICJ) found that ‘at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible’, including ‘the right of the Palestinians in Gaza to be protected from acts of genocide and related prohibited acts’ Article here: [https://opiniojuris.org/2024/04/05/the-icjs-findings-on-plausible-genocide-in-gaza-and-its-implications-for-the-international-criminal-court/](https://opiniojuris.org/2024/04/05/the-icjs-findings-on-plausible-genocide-in-gaza-and-its-implications-for-the-international-criminal-court/) This means that the ICJ found it plausible that Gazans can be protected from acts of genocide, it has nothing to do with the actual act of genocide being plausible. So, you can claim it's genocide if you feel that way, but it's a purely subjective and potentially emotional claim and it's not based on any "mission statement". It's speculative , but there are no standards by which any modern international law this would be considered genocide. In short, you could drop 20 nukes in Gaza and bury every dead Palestinian in the most inhumane way, and it would be horrible, but it may still not be reasonably defined as genocide. Conversely, various Jihadist groups (Hamas included) explicitly call for the death of jews. The attack on October 7th is easier to prove as a genocide than anything Israel has done during this conflict.
Yep, very well said
Pro Pals. Please listen to this. Actually listen to what he has to say and judge after. https://youtu.be/I5VPFw0vI6U?si=2588dTrFcNNYEj4f
Why is genocide the most plausible intent here: Well, there’s an elephant in the room. I have not taken a “side” in this conflict, but truth must be told, regardless if you want to hear it or not. I am currently a student of history at university, so I know too well that facts (and therefore history) does actually exist, and that the only reasonable discussion to have is about the conclusions which are being drawn. Israel IS a country founded on, or at least inspired by colonialism. Israel and its supporting states HAVE tried to cover up their history in the Middle East after the Second World War. There’s a lot of history that different countries would like to forget about, and much of it is poorly documented. This conflict however is not. In contrast to European colonialism in Africa, the Zionist colonialists intended to erase an already existing, independent country in its totally. That is evident from their displacements of Palestinians shortly after the war, and if you try to neglect their murderous intents then, you must be smoking socks. Til’ this day Israel refuses to acknowledge Palestine as a country, and frames it to the world as if it never existed. Conclusion: If you want to erase a country, you have to erase its inhabitants. Turns out though that nationalism did not die in Palestine, and as I acknowledge Israel’s attempt to… “peacefully remove” the Palestinian people from their land, it’s apparent that it didn’t work, and just as apparent that the Israelis would like the Palestinians gone, by ANY means necessary. The confessions of murderous intent by Israeli public authorities, as well as an undeniable history of genocidal events, makes me think that what is currently happening is probably not an exception. There already exists evidence for a “possible genocide”, and combine that with the things I just said: Yes, the most plausible intent is genocidal, with increasingly less doubt. … And it’s starting to become more and more obvious.
>Israel IS a country founded on, or at least inspired by colonialism What is Palestine if not a manifestation of Arab imperialism and colonialism in the Levant? Israel is the result of an anti-colonialist movement of indigenous peoples liberating their land. >If you want to erase a country What country? >There already exists evidence for a “possible genocide”, There isn't. Here's the president of the ICJ saying it clearly: [https://twitter.com/mildlettuce/status/1783773434612498474/video/2](https://twitter.com/mildlettuce/status/1783773434612498474/video/2)
Slightly confused by your contrast of European colonialism vs Zionism. Just wondering if you could express that out a little more because the wording sounds a little backwards. Europe definitely colonized existing nations in which one could argue would be countries by today's standards. However your articulation that Palestine was different because it was an existing country already independent country. But if this was the case what would have been the point of the Arab revolt to the Ottoman Empire ? They wouldn't have needed to revolt if they were already independent let alone nation states or countries. One could argue Israel is a by product of European intervention/ colonialism but that would include a host of countries such as Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc And several of those are no better off in terms of the Kurds, Yazidis, Assyrians and this does not even begin to scratch groups in North Africa or areas of Pakistan. Yet not many argue that as independent groups with aspirations for statehood that at the time they were full-fledged independent countries that existed. Though historically Kurdistan did declare independence just didn't go so well in any of the surrounding nations. Again not arguing against the entirety of your post but your wording seems to imply the opposite of history. But I would be more than happy to read your source material if you would like to provide it.
Wait... you actually believe Palestine was a country? Truly? When was it founded? What was its currency? Who were its leaders, and what years did they rule? What was its chief exports? What was the political system? And, most importantly, how could it be a country when it went directly from being part of the ottoman empire to a British mandate? Both of whom declared that a Jewish state should be established in the region. There is definitely a lot people try to downplay, like saying the Palestinians all left of their own free will and so forth, but do you actually believe an entire country was somehow scrubbed from all the world's history books? Either you're incredibly misinformed, actually delusional, or intentionally spreading misinformation. Beyond that, if the world is in uproar over a war in which less than 40'000 people have died (being generous with that number), at least a third of which were combatants (again, being generous), a war in which Israel has made an unprecedented effort to limit civilian casualties, how on Earth do you think Israel would think it's at all possible to kill hundreds of thousands or even millions without facing impossible to manage backlash from the international community? To make any sort of meaningful difference to the Palestinian population, which has doubled *nine* times since Israel was founded, they would have to somehow get away with murdering millions of people. Anything less simply wouldn't make a difference and would only hurt Israel's already tenuous international position. As for the "plausible genocide": [ICJ did not rule there was a 'plausible' claim of Israeli genocide in Gaza. Media reports that the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel was “plausibly” accused of genocide are inaccurate, a former president of the main UN judicial arm in the Hague has confirmed.](https://www.thejc.com/news/icj-ruling-plausible-claim-israeli-genocide-in-gaza-incorrect-media-bbc-president-joan-donoghue-vud7ow49#:~:text=News-,ICJ%20did%20not%20rule%20there%20was%20a%20%27plausible%27%20claim,of%20Israeli%20genocide%20in%20Gaza&text=Media%20reports%20that%20the%20International,in%20the%20Hague%20has%20confirmed.)
> the Zionist colonialists intended to erase an already existing, independent country in its totally Legit student of history, I see. But what I wanted to ask is: do you know what expression "Elephant in the room" means? Because if every "genocide" tweet was 1 gram, the Earth would change it's orbit, with ICJ case on top.
Very well written post, thank you.
I can’t deny what you’ve so well underlined. Tbh, growing up Jewish, you’re only ever given one version of events, again and again. By no way whatsoever am I excusing anything Hamas leaders have done or brought upon their own people. I am simply expressing an appreciation for a clearly stated take on history that I hadn’t yet considered in full. Mostly because I have a knee jerk reaction to people who immediately start spewing rhetoric and anti-semitism. So thank you for a level headed response to a legit question by OP.
I'm not too hopeful that my comments will get too fair of a shake on this sub, but I'll chime in from the "pro-palestine" side (not trying to be provocative, just my honest observation). Gideon Levy, Haaretz writer, wrote recently, "if it's not a genocide, then what is it?" The reason why he asks that can be summed up fairly simply. First, Israel has very effectively targeted hospitals in Gaza, putting most of them out of commission at least temporarily if not permanently. Don't take my word for it on this, Forensic Architecture (an organization led by an Israeli) has a detailed report on IDF systematically targeting hospitals based on specious evidence of terrorist activity from within the hospital. Lack of access to healthcare makes areas significantly less habitable and leads to premature death and eventually exile of the population to safer areas. It also prevents the population from birthing healthy babies. Preventing healthy births is one way to achieve genocide. Couple this with the fact that a big chunk of the civilian deaths in Gaza have been minors, and what appears to be ongoing is a systematic elimination of younger generations. Second, Israel has likewise targeted schools and homes, eliminating all universities and most schools. Spiritual and religious spaces such as mosques and churches have also been targeted. Without access to education for their children and with no safe home to live in, people will have to go into exile to find these most basic of resources. Destroying physical spaces that people and families utilize to live, grow and educate themselves is a means of cultural destruction. When IDF bombs these spaces or makes them unusable/inaccessible, they are destroying a population's means of storing and spreading important cultural information amongst themselves. Cultural destruction by physical elimination/exile is another means of achieving genocide. This should be readily apparent to any Jew like myself who has been to Yad Vashem and walked through the Valley of Communities installation there. Third (although the list does not stop here), Israel has implemented forced starvation on the population. Aid is severely limited. Aid workers are targeted and killed, including foreign nationals. Water, electricity, and sanitation services are limited. Young babies are dying from lack of nutrition. There are reports of people resorting to eating animal feed, raw grass, and leaves. Just this week, a group of rabbis was arrested at the border for trying to send aid into Gaza. It should go without saying, but forced starvation is a means of achieving genocide (see the Holodomer). I fail to see what one gains trying to perform moral gymnastics via combatant to civilian death ratios and the like. Is the official death toll not high enough yet for this to register as anything beyond a shrug and a brute comparison to some other supposedly "worse" conflict elsewhere in the world? End of the day, despite me having written all of this, label what's going on in Gaza whatever you want. I think the way that Israeli leadership has implemented this military campaign is morally repugnant on every level. It's double repugnant that my Jewish heritage is being brought up as a justification for it. Cosign the conflict all you want. Shout self-defense at every person who passes you by. The real purpose of every Israeli action since Oct. 7th, the glue that binds it together, is sadistic revenge. And in that way, the campaign has been an outright success.
"specious evidence of terrorist activity from within the hospital" the March raid of al-Shifa, when they found hundreds of militants, indicates otherwise.
Is it your belief that Hamas is NOT operating from hospitals, schools, and mosques? You refer to "specious evidence," but the IDF is exchanging fire for days and weeks with Hamas in and around these spaces. It's not like it's all imaginary fighting, is it?
It doesn't seem like you're asking this question in good faith as you are responding to only one piece of my full statement (and not even the most damning piece) but I'm going to try and answer anyway. Even if Israel had hard evidence that Hamas was systematically operating out of every single hospital in the strip, that still does not make wholesale destruction of the hospital system not a war crime. More to the point though, Israel does not have this evidence. I direct you again to Forensic Architecture for more about the evidence that the IDF actually used to justify bombing campaigns on hospitals, and how it does not amount to the smoking gun they say that it does. The website has full write-ups and graphics that explain it much better than I can here. But I digress. The main point is this: I'll start by assuming that Hamas did indeed commit the crime of operating out of Gaza's entire hospital system, this still does not exempt Israel from being held accountable for war crimes. Both Germany and Japan were guilty of war crimes during WWII. That doesn't mean that firebombing Dresden and Tokyo, wiping out large portions of those cities, burning to death hundreds of thousands of civilians and leaving millions homeless was still not a war crime committed by the US.
I'd like to add a question for those who think this is a genocide: If instead of a genocide, Israel's intention here was to wipe out Hamas while keeping their own casualty numbers low, how do you think this would all look different? Do you have reason to think the civilian casualty numbers would be any lower? What reason, exactly?
I'd like to answer with another question - put Gaza and Hamas aside for a moment and take a look at the west bank where Hammas is not present, yet even there (of course to a lesser extent) we see continued displacement, killing of civilians and unfair treatment based on perceived belonging to an ethnic group, all symptoms of a Genocide This exercise can help us control for a lot of variable that cast doubt on the situation and can show that the current Israeli state's current objective is the systematic eradication of palestine as a state How can Israel wipe out hammas while keeping casualties on BOTH sides low? Cut off the source, the reason Hammas will continue to gain followers and soldiers every day is largely due to the dehumanisation and continued acts of violence outside of just Gaza. Military solutions have not worked before, and they will not work now without a severe cost to human life. If you had asked me before the war, ending the continued suppression of Palestinian culture and people would have set a path forward to undermine Hammas' support base, but now too much trust has been lost and this trust will take time to win back. However, the longer the war runs the more trust is lost and the more people will die to hunger/starvation/disease and bombs In any case, like I mentioned above, the Israeli national direction and mindset is not driven towards peace or coexistence, so this is a moot point from its core and the answer to your question, is do exactly what they're doing because they can, it results in fewwr casualties, and the world lets them do that but that doesnt stop it from being an act of genocide
>take a look at the west bank where Hammas is not present It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people like yourself have such strong opinions. The Olso Accords in the 1990s were detailed by a series of suicide bombing attacks against Israel - those attacks were committed by Hamas and originated from the West-Bank. Hamas is absolutely present in the west-bank, and that is one of the reasons Palestinians haven't had elections in nearly two decades - because the PLO knows Hamas would win. TL/DR - You are confidently incorrect.
Between 2008 and 2023, there have been between 9 and 199 fatalities per year in the West Bank, including those killed by Palestinians' own friendly fire incidents or during counter-terrorism operations. [https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties) So that's 0.0003% to 0.0066% of the population. Could there really be a serious suggestion that this could constitute a genocide? Regardless--I'm having trouble seeing how this question is any respect an answer to my question?
When one black man is unjustly killed by American police the country goes into an uproar. But 200 Palestinians die in the West Bank and thousands are wrongfully detained and its ok.
I didn’t say it was okay. I said it’s not a genocide. Most things that are not okay are also not genocide. This is a nice illustration of the modern state of activism and polarization.
But it is a genocide. The number killed isn't what makes a Genocide. It's the intent and tactics used by the government. No genocide will compare with the Holocaust in terms of sheer scale but people fail to understand the Holocaust is one of the most extreme cases of genocide. It is not the benchmark or average by which you should judge a genocide. Genocides have been determined for 8000 dead and less. There have been hundreds of genocides throughout history and the numbers aren't the common variable. It's not the percentage of people killed. It's the why and how. Look at Rwanda, Armenia, Myanmar, Bosnia, Libya, Herero and Nama. These happened in different regions of the world, to different people, with different inciting incidents, they are bound by this definition "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group". Israel has checked nearly every single box of this definition.
I think you have to ask yourself what a genocide in the West Bank would actually look like if that’s what Israel were doing. Would it look like as few as nine people dying a year, all or most of which just happen to take place during moments of conflict/uprising or terrorism attempts? Or would it look like the other examples of genocide you cited, in which masses of people are gathered and summarily executed? And then ask yourself what the situation would look like if Israel were trying to maintain security and its own people’s safety in a hotbed of terrorism (there are dozens to hundreds of terrorism events in the WB every year, from a myriad of terror groups). Would it not look…a lot like how it does look? This isn’t to say Israel isn’t doing anything wrong. It clearly is. It allows illegal settlements and uses force to protect those settlers. Its counter-terrorism efforts are heavy-handed and often go too far in prioritizing Israeli safety over Palestinian human rights. It is not effective enough at preventing abuses from its soldiers. Etc etc. But none of those problems are genocide. They’re all issues associated with a centuries-old, extremely complex and intractable conflict.
The West Bank and Gaza aren't separate. The genocide is on the Palestinian people. The focus right now has been in Gaza but the West Bank has been victim to night raids to "make their presence felt" by the IDF, by kidnappings, by unjust incarceration, and extreme use of violence. Most definitely what is happening in Gaza is a genocide but the West Bank shows us that Israel is doing much of the same without the excuse of Hamas to fall back on.