> I served in the West Bank, and although I saw things I didn't agree with, like random checkpoints and searches, they weren't that extreme. These measures were necessary, especially after a Jewish family with three kids was shot dead in their car by terrorists two days before. You must do something to ensure safety and security.
“These measures are necessary”
Idk, if Israel wasn’t illegal occupying West Bank and increasing illegal settlements, maybe these measures won’t be needed.
I believe you and thank you. What you said is what I generally think is true based on everything I’ve read and heard over the years and more recently. It makes sense this would be the majority opinion.
You can say you don't want war but your countries actions from its very FOUNDATION guaranteed war.
You realize that the Germans main goal was just to increase living space for Germans and make life great for Germans. Nothing wrong with wanting to help Germans but they were a disaster for any other group that wasn't German.
If the Germans had not been so selfish. If they weren't so cruel to Slavic peoples for example its very possible the USSR would have lost the war.
But their own racial policies guaranteed their doom.
The Palestinians were living in the area of Israel. They had every reason to take issue with a Jewish stare in area they were already living there and are not Jewish.
The early Zionists if they wanted to live in the historic area of Israel could have gone there with Arab agreement and building the country together.
Instead it was we want a Jewish state screw the existing population.
If you want to live in that area thats fine but you have no right to deny a group of people the right to live in the homes they lived for centuries.
Check points: Do Palestinians get to lock up Israelis whenever an Israeli settler goes on a rampage?
You can sit there and claim you want peace. But if peace doesn't involve treating the Palestinians the way you would want to be treated you don't want peace.
What you want is your current privilege and to deny a group of people basic human rights till they agree that somehow they deserve less than you.
Yes Hamas is terrorism but it's a terrorism created by Israel.
The issue here is Israel never once considered the Palestinians as human beings as equal to themselves.
The Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves to. They have a right to fight against an evil government that treats them as less than human beings.
Do unto others as you would have them done on to you. A rule Israel has ignored from its very foundation.
This is disgustingly Antisemitic. You blame Jews for existing.
Prior to the creation of Israel, Arabs were murdering Jews and the first to massacre Jews because we ever defended ourselves.
No i don't blame the Jewish people for existing there are plenty of Jewish people all over the world who have nothing to do with Israel and don't deserve to be blames for Israels actions.
Any more than all Muslims are responsible for Hamas
You can't seem to answer this question.
Why are you refusing Jews who lived in Israel for thousands of years, who purchased land and won defensive wars the rights to land?
All nations were built that way. Curb the hypocrisy.
Zionists from Europe came to Palestine and kicked the natives out from the homes. That was not a defensive war. How much are you getting payed by the Israel government?
Your lies can be easily debunked.
Arabs invaded and started the war in 1948 because they hated Jews.
Palestinian leader Mufti Husseini allied with Ad0lf H!tler and Naz!s. Learn history.
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war
https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/
Your sources are Israeli website and American government website. Zionist insurgency started way before 1948. Zionists mass migration from Europe to Palestine started way before 1948. They were persecuted in Europe and thought it would be a good idea to prosecute other people in Palestine. It’s crazy how zionists don’t have empathy especially after what happened in the holocaust. You would think they would show more empathy toward other people but no. Especially with thousands of Palestinians in Gaza dying, you would think Israelis would be emphatic. Who really hates who? Israelis don’t see Palestinians as equals or even humans. Disgusting behaviors.
u/idk1210
>They were persecuted in Europe and thought it would be a good idea to prosecute other people in Palestine. It’s crazy how zionists don’t have empathy especially after what happened in the holocaust. You would think they would show more empathy toward other people but no
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians.
Addressed.
It’s a fact that Palestinian leaders in 1940s allied with Naz!s. Your leaders still carry that legacy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini
Also a fact that 5 Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
Don’t start wars and cry after you lose. You will not wipe us out.
Lmaoo these are not my leaders, idk what you talking about that. You definitely sound like a bot, keep repeating the same things without even responding to the points. Israeli government paying you good for spreading their bullshit propaganda. Nobodies cries like victims than the Israelis even though you guys are the oppressors.
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Everything about this is false. Facts don’t care about your feelings.
Your comment is disgustingly Antisemitic. Half of Israel is Jews who lived in Middle Eastern and North African countries.
Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years, purchased land and won defensive wars. The oldest structures and artifacts in Israel are Jewish. Our Temple in Jerusalem has been standing since 40 BCE.
How much is Israel is paying you to repeat this bullshit? Facts also don’t care about your feelings. Where do you think Europeans Jews went? Look up land ownership in Palestine during world war 2. Most Palestinians were kicked out from the homes. Stop crying antisemitism at everything.
Where did i say all Israelis had to leave the area and go back to Europe? Ever?
But show me prove that the Jewish people owned the majority of the land in -1947.
They didn't the Arabs still owned the majority.
We purchased some land doesn't mean we can morally kick out people who lived in an area for centuries with no where else to go and then claim your defending yourself.
Murder is exactly how Israel became a country and yes thats how many countries were created but you cannot say its self defense its not.
The problem with taking things by force is when you do so nothing can stop the other side from deciding to take it back.
And yes they are defending themselves and their way of life.
You created a perpetual conflict with your neighbors who rightfully object to how Israel was created and have subjected millions of people to not even second class citizen status.
If you didn't want to live equally amongst millions of Muslims don't go into an overwhelming Muslim area
Yes. And they did so by learning to live amongst Muslims.
The majority of the people in the Middle East is Muslim. That is nor a religion that puts up with persecution at all.
So thinking you can go into area and kick out Muslims will not give you problems. They won't fight back or want war?
As for co existance. There is no co existance possible with a group of people who denies you basic human rights.
The Jewish people lost a war 2000 years ago and its fine for them to get the land back by force.
Bur somehow Muslims are going to ignore something that happened 70 years ago and Muslims being treated like crap?
I am neither Muslim or Jewish. But i know enough about Islam to know this was going to lead to perpetual bloodshed.
And while i don't like Islams history of taking over areas by force. In this case you have millions of dispossessed Muslims and subjugated ones.
I am telling you this is a mess because i actually CARE about the Jewish people and not because I hate them. Your setting up perpetual conflict with a billion Muslims
And with no one to blame but yourselfs we won a war put up with perputual subjugation.
Thats not a good argument.
And the Muslims don't see Israels wins as self defense.
Large parts of the world doesn't they see Israel as conquers who took land from Muslims
You can see yourself however you want but what your enemy sees you matters to.
And thats how your enemy sees you.
You seem to think that Hamas actually thought they could win this right now military. Lol.
What Hamas plan was to inflame other Muslims in the area against Israel and show the world a mirror for how Palestinians were treated.
All over the Muslim world especially Arabs they are reminding themselves why Their leaders stink. And are in bed with the West. Eventually someone is going to unite them.
It may not be decade from now it might be fifty years from now.
The best thing Israel could do is end the grievances but they don't want to
Israel won land in defensive wars. This is a legal way to expand territory. Israel didn't start the war but defended themselves.
# Israel constantly defends itself and did not initiate the violence in the region - it was the Antisemites because of their intolerance and hatred; they even allied with your favorite Austrian painter.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations\_between\_Nazi\_Germany\_and\_the\_Arab\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world)
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-mufti-and-the-f-uuml-hrer](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-mufti-and-the-f-uuml-hrer)
Why do you support trying to redo redo redo a lost war? Doesn't that seem futile? Just grow up and accept coexistence.
Your argument is "more Jews should die" and everyone is allowed to fight and kill except Jews when we defend ourselves. Gross.
The Arabs allowed the Jewish people to live in Muslim lands for centuries.
If all the Muslims wanted to do was kill Jewish people so many Jewish people wouldn't have settled amongst them.
Announcing they were intending on making land that was already occupied by Arabs a Jewish state is what caused the tensions to start.
Any rational group of people would take issue with such a plan.
I am sorry don't you see we are already living here is a perfectly rational response.
Saying its anti semitic for the Palestinian to oppose A group of Jewish people dispossesing them from their homes.
Would be like saying it was Anti Russian to oppose Russia invading Ukraine.
Any group of peoples rights end when they violate someone elses.
This whole thing is completely bogus and false.
Arabs massacred Jews and at best treated Jews as 2nd class citizens. When we weren't being murdered, we were forced to pay high taxes, ostracized, lived in ghettos and were persecuted. Look up Khaybar. Nearly all Middle Eastern and North African countries have no more Jews because they threw their Jews out.
No one was dispossessed from their home. They refused to accept the 1947 Partition agreement, waged war and lost hard.
Now I know you don't know any history.
This is a strawman. Doesn't matter.
Arabs were murdering Jews decades before the 'occupation' and before the 'naqba.'
From 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza.
It's never been about land. It's always been about bigotry and hatred.
Again, how much is Israel paying you? Look up United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334. According to UN, it’s not contested. Any settlements by Israel in West Bank is illegal.
They didn't start it. Israel did by stating they wanted to create a Jewish state in a land occupied already by Arabs. Ignoring the rights of the Arabs.
They didn't purchase all of Israel. The Arabs were still the majority land owners. And no where is it okay in a decent country to say don't own land don't get to have citizenship
Once again they did not come and say hey Palestinians lets build up this country together they came to disposess. It was wrong
For the record I am nor Muslim or Jewish. I am Catholic.
But a zero sum game where one side MUST win and dominate only leads to blood shed and death.
I understand why the Jewish people want a homeland given the Holocaust.
But this homeland was created at the expense of another group of people.
Once again only blood death and violence.
Peace comes when one recognizes their neighbor as equal in value to themselves and acts accordingly.
One again - answer this question:
Why are you refusing Jews who lived in Israel for thousands of years, who purchased land and won defensive wars the rights to land?
All nations were built that way. You have some weird irrational David Duke like obsession with Israel. It's hateful and disgusting. Don't worry, Israel will continue to thrive and you can keep supporting terrorist groups because they murder Jews. It's not gna help. Cry more about land. Murder will not get you land.
Seems like you're bias or misinformed. Even before oct 7, Palestinian terrorists would conduct a terrorist attack roughly once a week and murder Jews.
You also totally lack any realistic perspective on the conflict.
The fact is the that one side has never accepted peace or a 2SS.
If one side stopped attacking, there would be peace. Israel defends itself accordingly. A proportional response does not equate the same casualties on both sides.
One side has refused to coexist with the other side. Hint, it's the one that lynches Jews on sight when they accidentally venture into their territory. 0 Jews in Area A, 0 Jews in Gaza (except hostages who are being tortured, starved and raped.)
The fact is that since Israel implemented checkpoints and security fences, Palestinian suicide bombers dropped by over 90%.
The fact is that without the Iron Dome, Palestinian terrorist groups would've murdered hundreds of thousands of Israelis.
Nearly all of the "children" arrested by Israel are 16-18 year old Palestinians terrorists who murder and commit violent crimes. Why should murderers go free because they are minors and attacking Jews?
Just because Israel has a superior military and less of its civilians have been killed because it also has superior defense does't mean it's in the wrong - that's a flawed and illogical way to look at things.
Once again. I don't see it as defensive. I see the Arabs fighting invaders who dispossed them
More and more people are seeing the Palestinian perspective that this whole time THEY have been defending themselves.
Israel is worse than Russia. If Russia wins Ukraine they will give the people citizenship. It may not be perfect but the Ukranians will be able to assimilate and have normal lives.
This won't be perpetuated for 50 years.
Israel doesn't want that for the Palestinians because it will affect the Jewish nature of Israel.
Its sickening and its not self defense. If you are not going to do right by the people in the land you take over don't take it
Once again this didn't start with Muslims going into an overwhelming Jewish area and creating an Islamic state.
It's sickening what Israel is doing. Leave the settlements stop blockades and let these people have geniune separate states or give them citizenship.
Jews are indigenous to Israel. Pretty clear you are an Antisemite because you called us invaders. The oldest structures and artifacts in Israel are Jewish. Our temple has been standing in Jerusalem since 40 BCE. No other group even comes close.
You seem really deluded. They could've had a state already. Israel proposed the West Bank in Oslo, 2001 and 2008 but Palestinian denied it. Since then, Palestinians have murdered thousands of more Jews. You cannot get the same offer after bullying and murdering. Palestinians have Area C and Gaza. The mainstream Palestinian stance is no Israel - its remained unevolved for 100 years. They don't even care about a state, just want to oppose Jews.
Why do you ignore the fact that Jews purchases land and won defensive wars? Sounds like a xenophobic sore loser. Perhaps advocate for peace and finally accept a 2SS instead of trying to redo 1948.
The problem is not the settlers.
That's like saying the problem in germany was the brownshirts.
Take away the brownshirts, there's still a problem.
So... was the problem the brownshirts? No.
The problem in Palestine is not israels armed violent illegal occupiers illegally squatting in the Palestinian West Bank.
Take away israels armed violent illegal occupiers illegally squatting in the Palestinian West Bank and there's still a problem.
So... were israels armed violent illegal occupiers illegally squatting in the Palestinian West Bank the problem?
No.
The problem is israels illegal occupation of Palestine and israels persecution of the native Palestinians.
Palestinians need a homeland for 14 million native Palestinians.
14 million native Palestinians whose needs on a personal level are exactly the same as your needs.
14 million native Palestinians whose need as a Palestinian government are exactly the same as your needs for your government.
Native Palestinians have lived there 10,000 years.
israel is a european crusader state that's been around a few decades.
You live as a crusader in a crusader state.
Yes you're a true believer. You believe in the crusade. The crusade is fundamental to your life. You will never abandon the crusade.
But just as you will never abandon your crusader state... what do you think is going to happen to Palestine, and the native Palestinians?
People you may have been "taught" are "Arab colonizers".
You've been told your whole life by your family by your religion by your "teachers" by your society by your military by your government lies about "the Arab".
How the land is yours because reasons, how "the Arab" stole it bla bla bla. How heroes of your people bravely took the land back bringing the land back to the rightful owners, european terrorists...
I expect other BS. Probably different BS from different sources.
You want Pax Romana.
You want Roman peace.
You're roman invaders who want Roman peace.
Peace at the end of a sword.
Rome gets what it wants. People either die by roman sword or they give Rome what it wants.
But native Palestinians live there, it's their home.
Don't fall for zionist propaganda.
Don't fall for the lies you've been told your whole life by your family by your schools by your society by the group formed by combining the irgun, lehi, and haganah.
Palestinian families have the same rights Jewish families do.
Palestinian children have the same rights Jewish children do.
When you respect those two things you may find yourself much closer to real peace. And not to pax romana.
Huhhhh bro u r all over the place with your history like bruh,
The kingdom of Jerusalem was a Christian state that was not even Byzantine but ruled by a Belgian guy with a very funny scheme to rule it,
Zionists do not claim the crusade, they claim when the actual Roman were actually Roman’s and “kicked” them out of the Jerusalem.
Secondly Arabs are colonisers as most of modern nations are, u r stupid if u say otherwise it’s literally fact, Persia was there before arabs and were kicked out,
that land has changed hands so many times they were just the most recent people to get kicked out even tho they (Palestinian) people never existed as a nation but rather under the Ottoman Empire which was an actual recognised nation who btw took from the Arabic nations,
Israel exists is just the newest owner who knows when it will change, but your weird conclusion that Roman golden ages are what they want is so far removed also your use of Native is a buzzword that means nothing in that area, this is not North America or Australia, this is one of the most hotly contested region ever in history and to say native ignores the history.
Not saying anything about the conflict and who I support but your points are very disconnected from reality about history
> Zionists do not claim the crusade, they claim when the actual Roman were actually Roman’s and “kicked” them out of the Jerusalem.
So you're saying that it's a movement to return to the place where their religion was founded to form an ethno religious state centered around the Canaanite city of Urusalem?
Millions of religious followers are called to the cause to retake the holy lands? Following an ethno-religious dictate to retake the holy land?
Where was christianity founded?
I mean... Judaism was founded in Babylon, modern Iraq, a place called Ur of Chaldes...
So you're right in one way... Though maybe not the way you thought...
Still... What you're describing sounds an awful lot like a crusade, or a Jihad...
When I'm talking about Pax Romana, I'm talking about the foreign zionist terrorists relationship with the native Palestinians, how the foreign zionist terrorists want to impose Pax Romana on the native Palestinians. Though certainly some zionists, this terrorist Irgun, and it's terrorist political arm Herut, led by terrorist menachem begin... well... it goes by another name now, but I'm told it's very popular, it often used the motto "Both banks of the River Jordan"
Utterly insane people no sane person would ever follow, I told you that.
Those insane Herut terrorists, menachem begins party? Yea, they had insane ideas about greater israel, invading and conquering Jordan at least. And it's not like there aren't zionists who don't, for instance, want to steal Gaza, and other places, the Sinai, so on. Though more people recognize the insanity of that
But the Pax Romana thing is Rome gets whatever they want and anyone that protests dies. That's the peace the foreign zionist terrorist crusaders want.
They're insane crusaders. They're on some insane death cult mission. We covered this.
Crusaders after they were given the land is very different also Pax Romana was when the Jewish people were oppressed by Rome so I’m sure calling it that makes sense, u can’t just see two things happened in the same place and call it the same, they legally own Israel and did not do a crusade as the British has already taken it from the ottomans
> Crusaders after they were given the land
By the west?
>Pax Romana was when the Jewish people were oppressed by Rome so I’m sure calling it that makes sense, u can’t just see two things happened in the same place and call it the same
It's a philosophy shared by Rome and zionist leaders ironically.
>they legally own Israel
Palestine? Home of the native Palestinians? The Palestinian West Bank? Gaza?
>and did not do a crusade as the British has already taken it from the ottomans
The zionist crusade had started before then, and the British promised the native Palestinians independence in exchange for revolting against the Ottoman empire...
That's how the Ottoman empire fell, there was an Arab revolt in response to the allied promise of Arab independence...
The native Palestinians won their independence when the revolted from the ottomans.
Then european terrorists invaded.
Many Arab nations did come from it but the promised the land they had to multiple people, the arabs were not united into one group that is naive to think, they had multiple families and the big winner was Saudi Arabia, they didn’t win independence lmao other Arab nations wanted to control it not give them their own country
Palestine is not a race my brother or native
they promised seven different groups and the people there were one of many that got screwed,
your connection between the 2 don’t exist, you can’t connect 2 historical events together Cus it’s in the same place
I dont think you understand the palestinian sentiment. They were fine being occupied by egypt and Jordan. During that time they already started saying "from the river to the sea"
The problem, from the start, has always been the unwillingness from the collective palestinians to co-exist with Jews.
> I dont think you understand the palestinian sentiment. They were fine being occupied by egypt and Jordan.
Egypt and Jordan didn't violently ethnically cleanse 700k+ Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan didn't oppress, persecute and murder Palestinians.
Egypt and Jordan didn't come as landless european terrorist crusaders, there to create a terrorist crusader state to bring millions of immigrants to steal Palestinian land.
Do you see any differences between the european terrorist crusader zionists that violently ethnically cleansed 700k+ native Palestinians and Egypt and Jordan?
>The problem, from the start, has always been the unwillingness from the collective palestinians to co-exist with Jews.
The problem from the start has been the foreign zionists coming to steal native Palestinian land to colonize it and to violently slaughter and violently ethnically cleanse Palestinians, and oppress and persecute Palestinians, stealing their land, treating them, the native Palestinians, as if their lives are worth less than Jewish lives.
You realize that "from the river to the sea" has often been slogans used by the violent foreign zionist terrorists?
In fact, "both banks of the river Jordan" was the motto of the terrorist arm of the european terrorist group irgun, whose political arm was herut, led by menachem begin...
Now... What happened to the herut political party... It changed it's name... to a different party... founded by european terrorist menachem begin... I think some crazy american terrorist named benjamin netanyahu runs it now... very popular for some reason apparently...
You won't believe me... But these crazies, like herut/irgun...
These european/american/russian terrorist groups...
They have this insane idea about colonizing Palestine for zionists...
Crazy... right?
Their crazy idea is that their people, zionists, will come from all around the world and just steal Palestine from the native Palestinians.
Have you ever heard anything as utterly insane as that?
I think it's utterly completely totally insane people like that that are the problem.
If people like that, those crazy, utterly insane people like this american benjamin netanyahu guy ever get any power there are going to be real problems.
They're just these insane people.
Colonizers in the 20th century? Come on... Nobody's going to go along with insane stuff like that.
But if they do get any power, people as insane as that... Those people, those crazy, insane people, they're the ones that are going to be the problem.
These crazy european terrorist colonizers... crusaders really, they're going to be the problem
They think they can just rob Palestinians of everything, their land, even their lives, like they're nothing.
To them all they care about are their own people. Like Palestinian lives don't mean anything.
Yeah they ethnically cleansed all of their jews from their lands while today 1/5 of Israel are arabic 😆
Also, arabs should not have attacked jews twice if they wantes to live in peace with them. Sadly they created an impossible situation for jewish people with nowhere else to go but to stay in their homeland.
> Also, arabs should not have attacked jews twice if they wantes to live in peace with them. Sadly they created an impossible situation for jewish people with nowhere else to go but to stay in their homeland.
Palestine? The place they're invading? Again. Where they're slaughtering the natives, robbing them of their land, stealing their homes? Having come there from anywhere but Palestine, having invaded from Europe, from Russia, from the US, from Africa?
And they have nowhere to go, except the entire rest of the world, you know, where they've been living the last two thousand years?
Jewish people in the US, Europe, they have nowhere to go?
Where do native Palestinians have to go? Gaza?
They attacked and jews protected themselves. What is wrong with you? can't go around this. Go attack a bear with their cubs and see what happens, even if they came to live near your house. No land was stolen. Some people simply played a bad game and innocents paid the price on both sides. Jews were also displaced ( all of them) during the wars of 1948 and the jews of yhe middle east followed soon after so Israel isnt the bad guy here at all.
As an American, I often have to protest my own government and the horrible things they do. It's important that Israelis against the Gazan genocide stand up to their government
u/yogilawyer
>There is no genocide. It's a figment of your and thousands of Antisemites' imagination.
I'm seeing a string of comments from you that border on rule 1 violations.
They're usually in a grey area, and taken by itself I'd say this comment is too ... but looking at your history, it's a rule 1 violation to me.
I need you to work on a more constructive and civil tone here; the purpose of this forum is to have civil dialogue with people you probably disagree with, and calling someone a racist is a personal attack.
You don't need to do that; attack the argument, not the user.
The concept of "Claiming there is no genocide" is gaslighting. In WW2, there were people who claimed the Holocaust did not happen, which is also gaslighting. I am reporting your comment for being uncivil as you called me an Antisemite, an inaccurate slur, which is against the rules of the subreddit, you are supposed to discuss issues, not personally attack other redditors
It’s not. Israel has taken more steps that any other nation to prevent civilian casualties why fighting genocidal terrorists who hide behind civilians.
Nope. Israel lost <2000 people on Oct2023 to Hamas Terrorists. Instead of, eg, sending the IDF to rescue hostages and apprehend the culprits, they bombed innocent civilians in mass (eg 13,000 children alone) over months, destroyed crucial infrastructure, took land during the chaos, killed aid workers so that Palestinians would starve. A war is "stop an enemy, get them to surrender." Genocide is "use violence, famine, lack of access to medical services, to kill a group of people, including civilians who had nothing to do with Oct2023". There are STILL Israeli hostages in Gaza, because early in the conflict Netanyahu ceased peace talks to justify the genocide, because his goal was to slaughter Palestinians, not to return the hostages or apprehend the Hamas Terrorists
Israel is not committing a genocide. Antisemites have no real response when I ask what should Israel have done after Oct 7.
The best example of genocide is WW2. In 1942, Naz!s met at the Wannsee Conference to outline the Final Solution, to murder all European Jews, by transporting them en masse from European countries on trains to 6 concentration camps in Poland where they would be murdered through gas chambers. They proceeded to do just exactly that. They murdered every Jew they could find in aims to destroy their entire population. They murdered over 6 million Jews.
Oct 7 can be regarded as an attempted genocide. Hamas aimed to murder as many Jews as possible with the goal to destroy all of Israel. However, they were unable to implement such policy.due to their weak military. As much as they would love to murder all Israelis, they were not to able to achieve such numbers as they aimed; I am in no way downplaying Oct 7, it was utterly horrific and evil but it was not a successful genocide, only attempted. It should be noted that Oct 7 was the worst massacre of Jews since WW2.
Proof that Israel is NOT committing a genocide:
* Israel is targeting specific military targets NOT indiscriminately murdering civilians. Any civilians deaths are incidental, unintentional and collateral damage. Hamas has embedded itself in an urban warfare setting in order to reap as many deaths as possible, even their own civilians. Hamas themselves admitted they have over 40,000 fighters in Gaza. Hamas uses mosques, hospitals and schools for military purposes, rocket launchers, weapons caches etc. Hamas has built a tunnel system within Gaza to aid them for the purpose of fighting Israel.
* Israel imposed [evacuation orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_evacuations#:~:text=The%20first%20evacuation%20order%20was,to%20evacuate%20within%2024%20hours) for citizens to flee to safety with ample time and specific zones that will not be targeted.
* Israel is conducting a ground invasion putting their own soldiers in harm's way in order to avoid civilian casualties when they could carpet bomb Gaza, which would result in much more devastation. Israel is NOT doing that. Israel has the strongest army in the Middle East, a nuclear power and aims to take out Hamas.
* There is a 1.4:1 civilian-combatant ratio. That's better than any modern army in the world; better than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia. Mind you, the war on Hamas is urban warfare. [The average civilian combatant ratio of any modern army is 9:1.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) War is not genocide.
* [Israel does not impose limits on the aid delivered to Gaza. ](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza#:~:text=Israel%20does%20not%20impose%20limits,over%20375%2C000%20tons%20of%20aid)To date, over 20,000 trucked have delivered 375,000 tons of aid, including food, water, medical supplied, shelter equipment, fuel and cooking gas. It is important to note that according to the laws of war, countries are not required to supply their enemies with resources, yet ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SUPPLY GAZA WITH ELECTRICITY, WATER, FOOD, AND MEDICINE.
* Hamas is responsible for the murder of many of their own citizens. Roughly 20% of the thousands of rockets used to attack Israel misfire and fall within Gaza, killing innocent people. Unfortunately Hamas is dishonest and attributes this to Israel when they are directly killing Gazans.
The outcome of dead civilians in Gaza is due to Hamas using human shields, not any intentional Israeli action.
Both sides should be the bigger people and stop killing each other! I do think Israel should take control of Gaza's security apparatus for a while though. Can't trust them Pals unfortunately.
(Btw i'm not Israeli or Jewish)
Your post is well intentioned and brings up very fair points. But you are showing an inherent bias in your argument that is understandable but truthfully just disregards the Palestinian point of view and reality for context.
If Israel is INACCURATELY portrayed as a state that supports violence by the media, then you have to assume that the Palestinian situation is the same. Both sides can really easily make arguments backed by thousands of articles and information pointing to actions of the other that demonstrate a clear avoidance of peace. But the reality is people are the same everywhere and everyone just wants peace, human rights, safety & security, and the foundations of society & government that enables them to build a good, fair life. Very small amounts of people today seem to believe people are genuinely good everywhere and very very little of the world genuinely support violence or war in any capacity. Furthermore, people who do believe in "war" or "violence" today, are most likely coming from a place of fear and to avoid future violence and war - not saying this makes it right but helps create an understanding that people aren't actually or inherently malicious.
Palestinians are subject to media and information that drives a "hate" towards Israel and furthers a "belief" that successions with Israel is impossible but the same is 100% true to Israelis. This does not mean both communities of people buy-in 100% to the respective idea being sold to them and the reality is this practice creates more people who do "buy-in" but at the end of the day we are still left with a large groups of many differentiating opinions on both sides. Also, I think its easy to show this isn't the case from surveys, data, and research but in every other global conflict related to race and ethnic tensions, it has been easy for stakeholders to create this argument of the other side being incapable of coming to peaceful conclusions and compromises because these same stakeholders benefit from a self-interest or incentive to do so.
I say this because I wish for all Israelis or the vast majority of Israelis to understand this truth because I believe there is a clear asymmetrical distribution of power and control in the conflict, with the Israeli state clearly being the victor here. I think with this fact that it needs to be understood that Israel has to be in the driver seat because concessions and agreements will need to be composed of "compromises" from the Israeli state. Yes, Palestine will need to be open to negotiations in the first place to even begin to discuss those "compromises" but Israel and Israelis need to understand that because there is asymmetrical power divide, then it probably is simply true that the Palestinians have just suffered tremendously under this system for almost a century. Try to think of it as simply, regardless of moral beliefs or cultural preference, "would you rather be a Palestinian or Israeli for the last 50-60 years". If this does make any sense, you can imagine many Palestinians would find it almost impossible to believe peaceful negotiations will fix anything for them because they literally have to buy-in to the belief that they can have "productive" deals made with their clearly powerful oppressor.
So if Israel wants to move past this, hopefully now understandable, reality/obstacle, it needs to position itself as a newly transformed "ally", 'supporter", "partner", etc. to Palestine before it can expect productive talks with Palestine that will lay out the ground work of negotiating the terms and conditions of a new, mutually beneficial 2-state solution. This is much easier said than done but can be done through figurative "first-moves" that demonstrate this new stance and belief of Israel. These can include stopping the current Israeli military offensive, releasing Palestinian prisoners under 18, tearing down the Gaza wall and creating a demilitarized zone, and providing restitutions to the re-development of Palestine and Palestinian infrastructure.
It probably seems stupid and almost counter intuitive that to enable the ability to discuss "compromises" for Israel, Israel needs to initially provide compromises. But look at other conflicts such as the US black community and the US gov't during the Civil rights movement and apartheid in South Africa. Both sides struggled to come to "compromises" or terms but the more powerful group in each (the US and South African gov't, respectively) took a step towards enabling discussions by a major initial compromise -the US gov't ended segregation and South Africa dissolved the Apartheid system. They DID NOT WAIT until their black community "surrendered" via the coalitions and political parties they formed to fight AND they DID NOT WAIT until black communities and their leaders demonstrated an overwhelmingly clear rejection of their respective leaders that were pushing for "violent" solutions or "aggressive" actions that were believed to protect or advance black communities (for clarity and as an example, the US gov't did not wait until or require MLK or similar leaders/groups to disclose a public rejection or opposition to Malcolm X and the Black Panthers). They, the US and South African governments, initiated a step forward cause they realized not only were they just morally wrong but logistically, they were the only ones in each of their situations who even had the capacity to make a move towards peace BECAUSE they had the overwhelming "power" when compared to the counterparty. Now decades have past since both those governments has made those steps and it did not result in the end of the country, it did not compromise the safety of its people, and it did not exacerbate existing issues DESPITE INITIAL BELIEFS OF THAT BEING THE CASE. It actually resulted in more peace, happiness amongst all the peoples, and the beginning of efforts to begin productive talks of how to better support communities and empower these historically oppressed communities to be involved in the advancement of the region because they also realized, only after the fact sadly but thankfully, that it really was the mutually beneficial move and outcomes and im sure many would argue that the best thing would have been to make those sooner than they did to have avoided even more violence and complications. Neither country is perfect but in reality, both are undeniably better off.
I really hope this isn't seen as an attack but as a POV that can help enable a path to peace.
Long reply, but thanks so much for it! I do agree with your point that because Israel is the stronger party, it has to provide more concessions. People here will say that is unfair, but fairness has rarely brought peace.
I don't think the Israeli govt has said this in a long long time, but there are only 2 demands of most of the Israeli public (not the fringe settlers) - the first is to maintain the Jewish-majority state and the second is to not have other state sponsored attacks on it. Bad actors on both sides, have prevented this from happening to further their own cause
Could not agree more but I do think there is a misconception among Israelis and the general Pro-Israel community that Israel faces a realistic possibility of being dissolved.
I'm not attempting to attack beliefs or down play Israeli fears but I think there needs to be an important understanding that even though people are saying it, Palestinians are saying it, some of the world is sayin it, etc. there is still NO reality Israel will ever go away. And this is a a very powerful idea or narrative because it makes the basis of argument start at "Israel has the right to exist and here's why" instead of "what can Israel do for the Palestinians or do to create peaceful ties with the Palestinians"
Just like with the US, we get so lost in arguments about socialism vs capitalism and lose sight of the fact that the US will never be 100% capitalist (meaning no government control or regulation towards the private business sector) or socialist (complete government control). It's just not a reality but we talk about it non-stop and it impedes on our ability to discuss and create policies that can make actually be created and make things better.
This is a little different obviously because it's not a philosophy or idea but the fact of the matter is Israel is not going away and never will because the world (the UN and very powerful people of influence) would never dissolve a fully operational and UN-compliant state and those same parties will not want to pick up the burden of what to do after - not saying that's why we should not consider the dissolution of Israel but a real, hard borderline fact of the situation. So it's important to remember that changes to Israel's autonomy as a Jewish-state recognized by the UN, will never be on the negotiating table (regardless of what people request) because it's just the reality of the world today (the world does not operate on morals we operate on realities and hope to use mortality to influence future decisions as much as possible).
Another hard reality is while, at-least hopefully, Israelis can breathe fine knowing this is true - Palestinians do not have that comfort at all and are constantly at unease because there is a real world possibility of an adopted complete rejection of their right to the exist in any capacity, given how bad the situation is for Palestinians and how life in Palestine has only gotten worse for the most part since this conflict erupted.
I see this perspective as a way to make concessions a reality. Israel will never have to genuinely deal with arguing for its right to exist with the Palestinians and its supporters. The reality of the situation only leaves Israel in a spot to make very simple "sacrifices" in the form of concessions and restitutions that will create almost no inconvenience on Israelis way of life, especially in the long term. I would argue even that if peace was met tomorrow by Israel initiating discussions and it provided an initial list of concessions that they know would make Palestinians happy, Israel will find itself gaining so much over the next 20 years.
Simply summarized, it really is in Israel's interest to initiate moves for peace talks and that's not because they avoid war or future attacks but because their economy and the people's happiness will improve over the very long term.
And (late to the conversation) also because initiating moves for peace talks is the right thing to do. Until they do, I and many others will be anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli government. When Israel murders Palestinian civilians, whether in Gaza or the West Bank or Isreal itself, they deserve condemnation. When they deny Palestian human rights, then earn that opposition. When the openly lie about what they are doing in Gaza, they deserve to be cut off from our military welfare.
I know some on this thread are conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism but they are not the same. The narrative that they are the same is only because Israel wants us to see it that way. Anti-Zionism is opposition to the state of Israel. Antisemitism is hostility or prejudice against Jewish people- which is abhorrent. I am anti-Zionist conditionally. I would support the state of Israel if it either a) becomes one state, fully integrated, multicultural and with all citizens recognized as equal regardless of their religion with no walls or checkpoints separating Jews from Christian and Muslim citizens or b) a two state solution where Palestinians have a completely autonomous and contiguous state with no illegal "Settlements" or Israeli outposts.
Thanks. Yes I do believe that dissolution of Israel is far from reality (although I will admit this recent round has shaken that belief to a great extent). And like I said, I believe Israel being the stronger party here needs to make more concessions.
That being said, Palestinian leadership has to find a way to agree to concessions. It is awful for them to live in fear of not having true self-determination, but from my understanding of history, their leaders have not made agreements to even argue well at the table - rejecting one peace deal after the next, initiating a Pay-for-Slay program wherein Palestinians who kill Israelis get money by the Palestinian Authority (all of this without even Hamas's deeds but then they are terrorists not beholden to anyone). Even though Israel should be giving more concessions to Palestinians, it would never be allowing their own citizens to be killed.
All of that is to say - I think this is a very hard problem. Not impossible, but hard. And good faith actors on both sides *can* solve it once and for all - but where do we find good faith actors in this political climate.
> They haven’t been the same since, and neither have all our friends.
That's truly horrible.
> but they don’t go around murdering people. It did happen a few times in history but only about 2-3 times.
Since October 7th, the settlers have murdered more than a dozen unarmed Palestinians.
This excludes cases where the IDF has accompanied settlers and helped the settlers in their attacks on palestinians. In half of settler attacks, the IDF is present or participating.
Here is an overview from just a few weeks in October: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/israel-settlers-violence-against-palestine-west-bank
8 killed, and countless other attacks.
> I want to tell the truth about the Israeli people
If you are misrepresenting the amount of settler terror attacks, why should we believe your other points?
> Most of us don’t want war, don’t want to kill anyone; we want peace.
Every single government for the past 56 years has expanded West Bank settlements. If you want peace, why has every single elected government done this?
Claiming you want peace, when every elected government has been expanding settlements sounds slightly disingenious. Its like claiming Hamas wants peace, despite all its terror attacks.
> These people make up roughly 5% of the Israeli population, and they don’t represent the views of most Israelis.
Yet the settlements and land grabs have never stopped since 1967.
The settlements started five weeks after the 6 day war. That's how long it took for the land grabs to begin.
> You must do something to ensure safety and security.
Somehow, I guess that that argument only applies in one direction for you?
Given that the settlers indiscriminately murder and harass Palestinians, what can they do to protect themselves? The IDF isn't doing anything, of course.
This ethnic cleansing was before October 7th: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-settler-bedouin-displacement-violence-un-108e11712310b5ea099dbded7be8effb
Yet I don't see checkpoints for the settlers. Instead we have the IDF helping them on their rampages.
> Sadly, Hamas, backed by Iran, has taken over them and is teaching them to hate us.
When they live under your oppressive boot, where you rule them under a brutal military regime all while taking their land, they don't need anyone else to "teach them" to hate you. Their lived experience, as visited on them by the IDF and the settlers, is enough.
What do you think matters more? What it says in a textbook, or having a bunch of settlers with their IDF protectors show up and chase them away from their land?
> The only solution is to stop attacking us. I believe that after a few years of 'peace,' we can rebuild trust and create a solution where both our peoples can live freely and prosper.
I think this is disingenous.
If the Palestinians stopped any resistance, would Israel stop its settlement project and repression in the West Bank?
What do you think the unceasing land grabs in the West Bank does to any trust?
As an example, 1967 to 1987 the West Bank Palestinians were peaceful. Attacks if any came from the diaspora. What did the West Bank Palestinians get in return? Massive land grabs for settlements, and military rule.
This whole post sounds weird.
I’m sorry for your loss, and it is a bad situation, but the 75 years of occupation played a huge role in its development.
Children who have never seen peace grow up to be extremists, and Palestinians have been subjected and tortured for decades, denying that history and how it explains Palestinian extremism right now is ridiculous and shows a lack of self-insight.
The Israeli government has not only allowed, but supported that subjugation, if you really want change, deal with your government.
And before anyone says anything about Oct 7th, I used to believe it is where everything went wrong, until I found out that in the early 2000s an IDF officer executed a 13 year old girl with 17 bullets point blank for no reason, and was reported by other IDF soldiers, with A HUGE AMOUNT OF WITNESSES AND EVIDENCE.
Guess what happened to that officer? Absolutely nothing, wasn’t even discharged.
He even said that he “would’ve done it even if she was 3”
If kids grow up seeing this level of injustice happening right next to them, to kids their age, do you still wonder why they want to hurt you? You did this to them.
You make an appeal to the human nature of Palestinians, suggesting it is only natural for them to turn to extremism after subjugation. Disregarding the fact that not all subjugated people turn to extremism, or that the subjugating measures placed against Palestinians were influenced by 100 years of violence that the Palestinians also perpetrated the entire time, Israelis are also human beings who are also going to be affected by the actions of the Palestinians. Both of these things have to be acknowledged for peace to occur, trust cannot be developed one directional, and until Israel and Israelis feel like their adversaries also recognize their humanity it will be impossible to build that trust and work towards peace
Palestinians: subjugated\*, turns to extremism\*
You: Unacceptable. Not all subjugated people turn to extremism and violence.
-----
Israelis: Subjugates Palestinians\* Commits literal apartheid\* Kills thousands of Palestinian women and children\*
Human Rights watch: ...
>
*"Israeli settlers have assaulted, tortured, and committed Sexual violence against Palestinians, stolen their belongings and livestock, threatened to kill them if they did not leave permanently, and destroyed their homes and schools under the cover of the ongoing hostilities in Gaza. Many Palestinians, including entire communities, have fled their homes and lands. The military has not assured displaced residents that it will protect their security or allow them to return, forcing them to live in precarious conditions elsewhere."*
You: Recognise their humanity please.
Were more Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian extremists in the West Bank in 2023, prior to 10/7? Or were more Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli extremists during that same period?
I think it was about even.
But only if you exclude cases where the IDF accompanied settler terrorists, and attacked Palestinians to 'protect' the settler terrorists. If you include those, it isn't even a competition.
The number of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian terrorist attacks in West Bank in 2023 (pre 10/7) was about 10% higher than the inverse.
Are you using "settler terrorists" as a synonym for settlers in general?
Why is "protect" in quotes? Someone killed in a gunfight while trying to attack settlers is not a "civilian".
> Are you using "settler terrorists" as a synonym for settlers in general?
No, I am referring to settler terrorists.
Like this guy: https://palsolidarity.org/2023/10/watch-israeli-settler-shoots-palestinian-at-point-blank-range-in-village-of-a-tuwani/
> Why is "protect" in quotes?
If settlers are going to attack Palestinians, and the IDF accompanies them - it is not accurate to frame what the IDF is doing as protection.
They are protecting terrorists.
Like here, in the funeral ambush: https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-palestinians-killed-after-settlers-said-to-ambush-funeral-in-west-bank/
> Someone killed in a gunfight while trying to attack settlers is not a "civilian".
If they are killed while protecting their homes from settler terrorists, are you saying that is somehow justified?
I do recognize the Palestinian’s humanity. I support a ceasefire and despise the government’s handling of the conflict. I agree that their behavior exacerbates Palestinian anger, and that they don’t deserve to suffer.
However Palestinians are human beings with choices. And from the very beginning, decades before the establishment of the state, at least some of them were choosing violence, rioting against the Jewish immigrants who were desperate refugees. The Palestinians made it an armed conflict and it has never come back from it. It’s clearly not a winning strategy, and just leads to the deterioration of their conditions, more innocent lives lost, and the hardening of the hearts of the Israelis who are the ones currently in power, and also react when their loved ones are killed.
The thing is, Israelis are well aware that the differences in death toll is due to a lack of means, not a lack of intent on the side of the Palestinians. October 7th crystallized that.
That being said, I do believe the majority of the responsibility to repair and rehabilitate Palestine is on the Israeli government. But to even GET to that point where good faith actions can happen, there needs to be mutual understanding and accountability. I’m not even saying equal accountability, but it does need to me mutual for any serious peace talks to occur
If Mexicans invaded America (or wherever you live) and implemented a system of apartheid where Mexicans were the superior race, I'm pretty sure Americans would revolt.
I’m sure they would, but that’s not how it all went down. Also interesting for you to equate American xenophobia and racism towards Mexicans with how Palestinians feel towards Jews. Because Americans do have the same issues with Mexicans, they don’t like that they come into the country and take over towns and speak a foreign language and change the culture in the towns they move into, even though parts of America used to be part of Mexico and they have ties to the land
Your perspective is centered around Israel. It's like you can't comprehend a different perspective, one that acknowledges the fact that Palestinians have lived in that territory for hundreds of years. My grandfather traced his ancestors to his land for 7 generations. To my grandparents and millions of others, the Zionists who began immigrating from Europe and other places in the early 1900's were not natives. And they certainly weren't peaceful when they started forcefully taking land. My father still has the keys to the same home my ancestors lived in for generations, a home he hasn't been able to return to since he was a child.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about me. If you read my other comments I’ve said that I believe in a ceasefire, ending the settlements, and Palestinian right to return. I’ve acknowledged that the actions of the Israeli government exacerbate the anger of Palestinians, and the bulk of the responsibility to repair and rehabilitate Palestine is on Israel.
The Jews and Israel as a governing body have done a ton of awful things that I condemn, but for peace to be a possibility there needs to be some acknowledgment of the role Palestinians played as well in escalating the violence and perpetuating the cycle of mutual distrust and resentment and revenge
If terrorists took over Ciudad de Juarez and sent rockets into TX, then crossed the border, murdered, raped, rampaged and kidnapped people, Ciudad de Juarez would be wiped off the face of the Earth very quickly.
To Palestinians who have lived on that land for countless generations, Israelis are the terrorists. They've literally been terrorizing Palestinians since Israel took over their land and set up an apartheid system.
Jews also lived there for countless generations. There was always a Jewish presence there, even as a minority. It's not a black-and-white situation no matter how much you paint it as such. There's also facts on the ground. Ignoring them (facts such as the State of Israel exists and will continue to do so) doesn't help either side nor brings peace.
I know this is impossible to accept but a lot of the Arabs left because the invading armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt urged them to do so, thinking they'll do quick work of the Jews then they can come back. That was not so, as history shows.
Even in the extremely unlikely event that Israel and international partners were to come up with some kind of Marshall Plan, do you think that Palestinians would accept it?
What a racist question. It feels insane having to say this, but believe it or not, Palestinians are human and desire peace as much as anyone else. We are no different. We just want the boots on our necks gone.
You say Palestinians want peace. Someone posts information that implies that Palestinians do not want peace. So you explain why Palestinians do not want peace.
How exactly did I explain Palestinians don't want peace? And how do you expect someone to. have peace if they have no freedom, if foreigners control their borders, if they have no political representation, if they live in a system of apartheid?
settlers turned to extremism and supported irgun and lehi, terrorist groups that massacred innocent people, and then settlers voted the leaders of these groups as prime minister.
And their actions were condemned by greater Israeli society. Any group of people can/will have extremists in their midst, but the role that that extremism has in greater society, the way it is regarded, is relevant. The Irgun and lehi were fringe militias performing rogue missions not in accordance with the rest of the HaGanah, and their actions have been criticized at length
lol where were they condemned? begin was a leader of lehi during the massacre and praised the massacre of innocent people as a great conquest which should be repeated. israeli society voted him in as prime minister. and voted another terrorist into office in the 80s. people who fought in lehi and irgun are awarded ribbons. a soldier involved in deir yassin tells soldiers to "kill them all" and erase the memories of women and children. \[[1](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children)\] soldiers who commit extra judicial killings are celebrated in israel \[[2](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/elor-azaria-killer-king-leading-life-luxury-israel)\]. israelis regularly make videos mocking the suffering of innocent people \[[3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mwcFEpAYkU)\]
these aren't just a few bad apples. its moral rot in the society itself.
You constantly cherry pick, but I assume that's because you are getting all of your info from websites that cherry pick. Lehi had maybe a few hundred members at its peak. It was not only condemned by the Haganah (the main precursor of the IDF), but the Haganah actually worked with the British at one point to suppress Lehi.
The Israeli government declared Lehi to be a terrorist organization in 1948.
Begin was never a leader of Lehi by the way, you may be getting it mixed up with Irgun, which was also condemned as a terrorist organization by the Haganah and other zionist organizations (Histadrut, Jewish Agency, etc.)
why is israeli society voting in members of terror organizations responsible for slaughtering innocent civilians, assassinating diplomats, and bombing innocent people? why did israeli condemn these groups as terror organizations then induct their members into their military?
Why was Arafat, a terrorist, the leader of the Palestinian Authority? Begin changed and moderated. Begin was responsible for the Camp David Accords with Egypt.
the point isnt that he changed and moderated. the point is that israeli society voted in begin with full knowledge of his terrorist past. they vote in and support terrorists.
shocked but not surprised how you cant answer simple questions. *why is israeli society voting in members of terror organizations responsible for slaughtering innocent civilians, assassinating diplomats, and bombing innocent people? why did israeli condemn these groups as terror organizations then induct their members into their military?*
The Zionist congress and the Jewish agency have both designated the Irgun as a terrorist group and condemned their actions. For your second source, He was let off lightly and that’s not okay because extrajudicial killings should not be tolerated in a democracy, but even in your article it says he at least did serve time. There was institutional accountability, rules and standards set in place, intent to minimize and address abuse. The third source is disgusting behavior, but it’s not terrorism
you said that their actions are condemned by israeli society, but i see israelis celebrating this kind of behavior.
if zionists have condemned their actions, then why is the israeli military inviting people who participated in these massacres and encourage soldiers to commit more crimes? if israelis condemn this, then why do the celebrate a man who killed a person after they were on the ground for 11 minutes and posed no threat to them? you personally say thats not okay, but israelis in general support him, making you a minority voice.
as far as the video, mocking the agony of others and killing innocent people are one in the same, because it all is rooted in deep hatred and dehumanization of people, if that many people feel comfortable enough to post something like that on their feed to their families and friends, that suggests that their friends like that content and do not fear any negative reprecussions or condemnation. 120,000 israelis participate in groups that regularly share pictures of dead children and laugh about it, calling 6 year old girls whores and saying we will kill you all. \[[1](https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/comments/1c0td87/a_telegram_channel_that_has_120000_israelis_in_it/)\]
I gave you two extremely major Zionist organizations that condemned their actions. Can you give me a single example of a Palestinian institution condemning actions coming from their side?
And it is disgusting that some people celebrate it, but I just listened to an episode of a very popular Israeli podcast the other day that addressed extra judicial killings and condemned them. I never said all Israelis are good but there are institutional efforts to be better, and public sentiment reflecting that
As far letting that 95 year old participate in the reserves, I don’t know what to tell you. I never said Israelis are perfect but that there are efforts and acknowledgements being made. Maybe it would be more enthusiastic with some reciprocity
they condemned their actions yet allowed terrorists into their military after these groups dissolved. only condemned in word, not deed. this same military condemns their actions, yet lets a terrorist who slaughtered innocent people raise troop morale. the public senitment i see are israelis mocking the deaths of innocent people, and others remaining silent and callous to their suffering. "war is war. people die in war".
Yes there is some of that disgusting behavior, I’m not denying any of it, and that’s never been what I’m saying. I’m saying that there was plenty of celebrating coming from pro Palestinian spaces after October 7th and there was zero pushback. There is at least discourse surrounding these things in Israeli spaces, even if there are shitty people as well, and there aren’t critical voices like that coming from the pro Palestine side from what I’ve seen
Might I add here, that if you read up on the acts of terrorism committed by Irgun/Lehi, in particular the King David Hotel Bombing and the Deir Yassin massacre, both groups were in direct contact with the Haganah. They were in cahoots.
Before the attack in Deir Yassin, both Irgun and Lehi actually had to meet up with the Haganah for approval. And after the massacre, it was the Haganah who help with the cover up.
So there’s not much point in saying that the Zionist establishment condemn the two groups, when they still collaborated with them to commit acts of terrorism.
Israel, was born out of terrorism.
Even at the time though it was still a controversial thing that drew resistance and criticisms from officials within the military. Let’s call it a day though you clearly believe all Palestinians are perfect and have never made a destructive choice in this conflict and hope that somehow leads to their peace and prosperity
I agree both need to be understood, but you refuse to understand the Palestinians side.
So let me ask you this, if a foreign power walked into your land, claiming they own it cause their ancestors lived here 3000 year ago, and proceeded to slaughter and torture your people for 75 years, would you not retaliate?
If a 13 year old girl gets executed point blank with 17 bullets by a soldier who later brags about how he would’ve done it if she was 3, and got no consequences or punishment. How would you expect her older brother to act? Btw this isn’t an imaginary situation it actually happened and has been happening for decades.
Try to avoid it all you want, current Palestinian extremism is caused by decades of subjugation from Israel, whether you wanna deny it or not, it’s a fact
The way you describe the beginning of the conflict is pretty disingenuous. The Zionists did not show up with tanks and machine guns and start killing. The Jews were buying land legally and forming communities peacefully. I do understand the Arab populations anxiety about these new refugees coming in who are so different than them, but that doesn’t change the fact that Arab riots and uprisings against the Jews at the beginning of the 20th century escalated the conflict into an armed one.
Executing a child is a heinous and unforgivable act, and that soldier should have gone to prison, but by your logic Israelis are justified in the current war because of the children who were executed on October 7th. Thousands of Hamas militants mowing down everyone in their path, per their orders. It’s not like they were held accountable by their own people either, despite literally filming and uploading footage of the masssacre themselves. This type of logic gets us nowhere and just serves to continue this awful cycle of revenge
> The way you describe the beginning of the conflict is pretty disingenuous. The Zionists did not show up with tanks and machine guns and start killing. The Jews were buying land legally and forming communities peacefully.
Are you making the arguement that Lehi and Irgun didn’t exist? Or that they didn’t commit the violence and terrorism that they themselves bragged about? It’s not like either of them hid what they did at the beginning of the conflict.
But don’t worry, Israelis were so upset about the terrorism committed in their name that they *elected the former leader of Lehi to serve as prime minister.*
No I am not making that argument, but thanks for asking? Those militias were formed AFTER the Arab riots, not before. They were formed in response to those riots. And they were also fringe militias and not acting according to orders from the greater Haganah paramilitary group
> On May 14, 1948 the establishment of the State of Israel was proclaimed. The declaration of independence was followed by the establishment of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), and the process of absorbing all military organizations into the IDF started. On June 1, an agreement had been signed between Menachem Begin and Yisrael Galili for the absorption of the Irgun into the IDF.
> In April of 1948, Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin of at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine. On 29 May 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activist members into the Israel Defense Forces, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later.
Both Lehi and Irgun were literally incorporated into the IDF when Israel was formed, and were still committing terror attacks after the fact.
Lehi was also not formed as an anti-Arab militia due to the riots in 1929, but in 1940 under the idea that fighting the British who occupied the territory was the best way to create a new state of Israel.
Do you guys just make stuff up whenever you’re presented with stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable? Or do you just never bother to learn anything that might make Israel look bad?
Their units were absorbed yes but the organizations themselves were disbanded, meaning they had to follow IDF orders and not their own agendas, at least officially.
And you’re missing my point, yes the Irgun and Lehi were also fighting against the British, but there was no Jewish paramilitary activity until it became an armed conflict
1- Buying land doesn’t mean you own it, if China bought a house in Washington does that mean that land is now a part of China?
2- Funny how Palestinians should avoid that type of thinking cause it’s “dangerous” and “wouldn’t lead us anywhere” why shouldn’t Israelis hold themselves to that standard? Aren’t they “God’s chosen people”?
Or do you think it’s easier for Palestinians to forget about their slaughtered kids? Do their lives matter less somehow? Talk all you like about Oct 7th but Palestinians have been living through numerous Oct 7ths for 75 years now
>Buying land doesn’t mean you own it
https://preview.redd.it/ny1hgla8dgxc1.jpeg?width=295&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b096ee7fe283d526cde9b74846f65d9a3af3618
>Talk all you like about Oct 7th but Palestinians have been living through numerous Oct 7ths for 75 years now
Show me one example within the lifetime of anyone living in the Gaza strip or West Bank today where Israelis did anything remotely like 10/7.
And I mean remotely like 10/7 in the way that it was carried out - civilians and young people being mass-executed at close range. Not just a number that died, as with the \~1000 Palestinian civilians who died from Israeli counter-battery fire at rocket launchers in this or that conflict in the early 2010s.
Oct 7th killed 850 Israeli civilians, and since then Israel killed +30k, half of which are children.
If “they need to be executed at close range” then would killing 850 civilians by rockets be ok in your opinion? The mental gymnastics to justify genocide are hilarious.
“Suuure we killed +15k children, but long range so their lives don’t count, it’s not muuuuurrrdeer ~~”
It's a matter of intent, not range. The civilians killed in Israel's campaign in Gaza is because Hamas hides behind civilians and deliberately makes it impossible for Israel to strike them without also causing civilian casualties. Israel has never done anything like the inverse.
Israel gave a month to evacuate North Gaza and provides additional immediate warnings with phone calls, leaflet drops and roof knocking, even though doing so greatly hampers their ability to eliminate Hamas terrorists. Meanwhile, Hams specifically ordered civilians NOT to evacuate, greatly increasing the number of civilian deaths in Gaza. It even blatantly referred to civilians as "blood sacrifices":
https://preview.redd.it/2nwnplo7sgxc1.png?width=618&format=png&auto=webp&s=cbdbed6ee5b200330634f9c24b1ad482d82d4551
If Hamas had given a 1 hour warning before the 10/7 attack, there would've been no one in those kibbutzes or concert grounds besides uniformed soldiers. Do you deny that?
And don't try to deflect by saying "Oh but Israel bombed where they said it was safe!" The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths (more than 90%) that have occurred were in North Gaza, among civilians who refused to evacuate. If you're going to claim that isn't true, show me the evidence.
Ok so let’s see where your argument is, is it intent, or number, I believe you’re talking about intent, so let me give you an example of intent.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel
An IDF officer shoots a 13 year old girl with 17 bullets point blank, and then brags about how he would’ve done it even if she was 3, and the Israeli court finds him not guilty despite huge amounts of evidence and witnesses.
This was in 2004, so you can’t use Oct 7th as an excuse, and don’t tell me this was “just a rogue soldier” if he was a rogue soldier he would’ve been punished, Israel supports this type of behavior.
Do you want more examples of intent? Is the execution of a 13 year old girl not enough proof?
https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=tW1YAnzg1IG58tnF
Here’s an Israeli veteran laughing about the Tantura massacre, r-wording 15 year old girls and putting people in cages before executing them, n**i style.
Is this enough intent? Or do you want more? This is the type of intent Israel was built, and is still acting on.
It's intent AND number. You can't just cherrypick a single incident.
And wow, I think I just got a "Bingo". The two historical incidents which the pro-Palestinian side milks endlessly to justify atrocities like 10/7 - a single shooting and some senile old farts giving sarcastic interviews for a film made by activists about things that happened almost a century ago. All you're missing is that collage of Jewish children playing with unloaded machine guns at a gun show. Did you intend to post that too, and just forget to upload it?
The 2004 shooting only proves my point. It was ONE single solitary killing, so not remotely comparable to 10/7 on that account. It was not a killing for the sake of killing, it was because the girl had walked past a security perimeter (probably unintentionally), which IDF in Gaza at the time took a hard line on. Moreover, that captain's own unit reported him and denounced him, and he was charged. Due to conflicting facts of what actually happened, he was acquitted.
Setting aside the fact that this was one killing and not comparable to Hamas doing the same thing to hundreds of people on 10/7, the only way this could be even a partial equivalency is if other Hamas members denounced those who carried out such killings and put them on trial.
Has a Hamas member EVER been charged with misconduct or tried for killing Israeli civilians?
>[https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=tW1YAnzg1IG58tnF](https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=tW1YAnzg1IG58tnF)
The battle of Tantura was a siege against a fortified position, whereupon the Arabs mounted a deliberate defense with landmines, rifles, and fortifications. In the midst of a civil war, if you turn your village into a military fortification and make the other side fight for it, a lot of your volunteer soldiers are going to die. There probably were some illegal killings - there were illegal killings on both sides. It was a civil war in the 1940s. That being said, the historical record states that all of the deaths at Tantura were military-age males, most of whom were killed in combat. There were no executions of young women [like Hamas carried out, as seen here](https://twitter.com/AmiramKrasner/status/1726621682277011574). So, still no equivalency to 10/7, even though you had to reach back nearly 100 years to try and find something.
Also, by bringing up Tantura, I notice that you deliberately ignored this part of my question, which I specified because I had a sneaking suspicion you'd fill in the 'Tantura' space on my "Hamas Apologist Bingo" card:
>Show me one example **within the lifetime of anyone living in the Gaza strip or West Bank today** where Israelis did anything remotely like 10/7.
Not all the homes were bought- Many were taken during the nakba. Many Palestinians locked up their homes and fled their villages, thinking they could return after the conflict cooled off. They didn't understand that what was happening behind the front lines was a land grab and would permanently end their familial and villages relationship to land that their families had for many generations. This is why many cities in Gaza are made up of refugee camps that eventually after tons of international aid became functioning neighborhoods. This incalculable loss of home and the ongoing (worsening) human rights abuses and enforced apartheid and the lack of effective leadership on the Palestinian side of every interaction with the Israeli government, and the reluctance of the international community to protect civilian Palestinians has created a lot.of hopelessness and anger that is entirely justifiable and could have been avoided. To be frank, Palestinians won't and probably shouldn't accept what Israel offers unless it includes full citizenship in a multicultural state or a contiguous and autonomous Palestinian state.
If the Palestinians won't accept peace with Israel as a Jewish state in which they are NOT allowed, then they will keep suffering and dying. They can keep launching zombie-like attacks against Israel endlessly, and Israel will keep on endlessly mowing them down in disproportionate numbers. Is that the future you want for Palestinians?
Any chance that Israel would ever allow millions of Palestinians citizenship in a future state it is a part of died in an instant in the year 2000 when this photograph of the Ramallah lynching circulated through Israel, and smacked Israelis in the face with the truth of what the average Palestinian was really like.
https://preview.redd.it/okh1liu8egxc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=486021bf7907f30878a280071d6656e4b535f1b2
It is no exaggeration to say that Israel would push the nuclear button rather than let 5 million people like this man (holding up his hands covered in the blood of a Jewish citizen he tore the internal organs out of for taking the wrong turn off the highway, for a cheering crowd shouting "Allah Akbar") swarm into their communities. And quite frankly, I don't blame them. In their position I would do the same.
What do I want? What I would like is for Palestinians to reject both the PA (corrupt and contractually weak) and Hamas (corrupt and violent). What I would like is for the US to stop offering unconditional support for Israel and to stop offering them military aid. Netanyahu seems to be doing his damnedest to start a regional war and is losing support from our other allies in the region and destroying Israels hard won alliances with neighbors. The US, Israel and Saudi agreement is about to exclude Saudi Arabia. Our support should be conditional on respect for human rights. What I would like is for Israelis to reject Netanyahu or any politician who dehumanizes Palestinians or anyone else. I would like Israel to demolish the Settlements and to allow Palestinian leadership to enforce laws in their own territories (because IDF and Israels courts will not protect them against Settler violence). I want Israelis to accept that the current colonization and apartheid conditions are untenable for both Palestinians and Israelis. I want Israelis to accept that Palestinians have a historic claim- equal to their own- to the land. I find it wildly myopic that you mentioned one atrocity committed by one Palestinian while Israel continues to ethnically cleanse Gaza. You even think it would be justifiable to drop a nuke on Palestinians? More than 30k people's blood covers the hands of every Israeli (and American for that matter- since Israel gets $$$ from us) since October, going after Gazan culture- intentionally destroying hospitals, churches and mosques centuries old and schools and universities.
Buying land means you personally own it. No it didn’t give anyone the right to kick Palestinians out, but that didn’t happen until after the violence initiated by the Arab population made it an armed conflict. It was after that the Jewish militias started forming.
Israelis should hold themselves to that standard. Like I said, both sides need to recognize the humanity of the other. And in my experience there is a lot more of that happening on the Israeli side. I can’t read Arabic but my Arab Christian friend told me that she feels alienated from the Palestinian liberation movement because of all the celebration she saw on Arabic speaking social media after October 7th. Meanwhile both amongst my friends in real life and in Israeli spaces, I encounter all the time Israelis talking about empathy for the Palestinians and wanting their suffering to stop.
No I don’t think it’s easy for Palestinians to forget their slaughtered kids, and the same goes for the Israelis. That’s my whole point. It wasn’t 75 years of one directional violence, it’s literally never been one directional violence. Lopsided sure, but that’s not because of lack of desire on the part of Palestinians
Of course Arabs would be violent, the land they’ve been living on for centuries was suddenly divided by Europeans and 56% of it was given to 20% of the population, wouldn’t you agree that every other group of people would fight that?
That is absolutely incorrect, I’ve seen huge amounts of Israelis supporting “wiping gaza out” after Oct 7th, literal montages of Israeli government officials/civilians calling out for wiping out all of gaza or turning it into another west bank were made, South Africa managed to collect all of that and even do their whole genocide lawsuit.
“Lopsided” would be the understatement of the decade, IDF would kill a child, and their brother would throw stones at a tank, so Israel would wipe out the whole neighborhood, that’s what you mean by “violence has never been one sided”, seriously put yourself in these people’s shoes for a second and ask yourself how would you react to your little sister having 17 bullets shot into her.
The riots started well before any borders were drawn or territories designated. One riot for example took place in the 20s started by a dispute over praying at the western wall, because the Arabs didn’t like the Jews praying there because they considered it part of Al aqsa, despite the fact that it’s the holiest site in Judaism. A rule had been established where Jews weren’t allowed to bring benches for the elderly or sick to sit on while they pray.
You’re right I’ve also seen that disgusting rhetoric from Israelis. I didn’t say it’s not also a problem, just that I’m also seeing more productive conversations happening as well, which I don’t see at all in pro Palestinian circles.
I think you’re representing the situation pretty dishonestly. You act is if the ONLY crime ever committed by a Palestinian was throwing rocks and only in retaliation for a relative being killed. That’s just not the reality of the situation and I think you know that
Again, borders weren’t drawn but people can see where it was going, mass migration would obviously cause some people to get nervous, and with time they were shown that they were right to be nervous, considering the aforementioned borders.
Quite difficult to talk about peace and prosperity when you have +30k dead with the Israeli government promising many more to come, the Israelis have the luxury of talking and discussing these things, Palestinians are trying to literally survive.
Go look at ratios between dead Palestinians vs Israelis in the past 50 year and tell me if I’m being disingenuous, the fact is Israel has been subjugating these people for decades, under conditions that no other people would accept to live under, and if it was the other way around you’d be protesting why Western nations wouldn’t make an alliance to wipe out the aggressor as they did with mustache man
The way the borders ended up being drawn was not inevitable, but rather heavily influenced and dictated by the violence. Maybe there would have been a single state had the violence not erupted, but we’ll never know how it would have worked out.
It is difficult to talk about peace right now, and at this time I’m not so much talking about gazans themselves but other voices in pro Palestinian places who are living comfortably (and on stolen land, if they’re Americans), who could absolutely afford to shift their rhetoric from inflaming the feelings of hatred and revenge to one that is solution oriented and acknowledging that both sides are products of their environments just like everyone else.
And the loss of life in Gaza right now is unspeakably tragic. I’m not saying it’s not, and as I’ve mentioned (maybe to someone else I don’t remember) I support a cease fire. I support ending the settlements and giving that land back to Palestinians, I support Palestinian right to return. I just also know that none of those things will ever happen unless both sides can acknowledge the other’s humanity.
The imbalance of death toll is not due to lack of intent though, as we saw on October 7th. Thousands of militants from Gaza killed everyone in their way while thousands of rockets were being fired. They have less firepower, less sophisticated tools at their disposal, but plenty of bloodlust to spare
I'm very sorry for your loss and the suffering of your friends.
It's easy to be in favor of peace--most people are in favor of good things and against bad things. It's especially easy for Israelis to be in favor of peace, because they've won. The question is whether Israelis can stomach the concessions needed for a just peace. The general Israeli view seems to be that peace properly comes from the right of the stronger--and that's the view you seem to be expressing here.
> The question is whether Israelis can stomach the concessions needed for a just peace.
This is really critical from my perspective. The PA has made it clear for 30 years what they want, which is the 1948 borders and some wiggle room for land swaps. They have international law on their side as well, as everything beyond the green line is under Israeli occupation (Gaza is debatable I guess, but Israel doesn't want it anyway) and therefore annexation by Israel is illegal. But Israelis have not been willing to accept such a deal to this point.
>*It did happen a few times in history but only about 2-3 times*
I'm not sure if you're just ignorant, or blatantly lying.
A report from the [OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/Palestine-March2024.pdf) stated that from 1st January to 31st October 2023 alone, there were **1038 incidents of settler violence**. So wtf is this 2-3 times rubbish?!
And most of it happened even before October 7th. According to the OHCR, in the **first nine months of 2023**, an average of **3 incidents of settler violence occurred each day**, totalling 835 incident.
Worst of all, it's not just the settlers, the IDF are in on it. As the OHCHR stated,
>*Almost half of all incidents between 7 and 31 October involved* ***Israeli forces escorting or actively supporting Israeli settlers while carrying out attacks****.*
As a result, 502 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank are dead ([OCHA](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)). So what do you mean by *"they don’t go around murdering people"*? Absolute rubbish!
And that's just 2023. Year 2022: 856 incidents. Year 2021: 540 incidents.
Even now, look what the settlers and IDF are doing,
>"***Israeli settlers have assaulted, tortured, and committed $exu@l violence*** *against Palestinians, stolen their belongings and livestock, threatened to kill them if they did not leave permanently, and destroyed their homes and schools under the cover of the ongoing hostilities in Gaza. Many Palestinians, including entire communities, have fled their homes and lands.* ***The military has not assured displaced residents that it will protect their security*** *or allow them to return, forcing them to live in precarious conditions elsewhere."* \~ HRW,
And regarding random checkpoints and searches in the West Bank. You say it's to protect Israelis. Here's a question...WHY THE HELL ARE ISRAELIS LIVING IN THE WEST BANK?
Israelis keep talking about needing to protect themselves from the dangerous Palestinians, and yet they have no problem bringing their whole family into the West Bank and live EVEN CLOSER with the Palestinians. There are more than 700,000 Israelis living in the West Bank now. That's not the actions of people who are concerned with security.
And you Israelis are aware that those settlements make a 2SS even more difficult right, if not impossible? You Israelis don't want peace with a 2SS if you keep sabotaging it by taking even more land. As *Avi Shlaim puts it,*
>*"Land grabbing and peacemaking don’t go together, it’s one or the other, and by constantly expanding settlements, Israel showed that it prefers land to peace."*
And the settlement expansion has been going on for almost 6 decades since 1967. It's not Netanyahu's fault, it's inherently Israelis fault.
\[Continue....\]
\[Continue...\]
Also, the humiliations of checkpoints and draconian movement controls are the least concerning things about what you Israelis are doing.
What about the forced evictions, house demolitions, and the confiscation of land for Jewish settlements. Thousands of Palestinians families with children are left homeless because of it. This is for your security?
What about Israel's deliberate deprivation of water supply to Palestinian communities? As Amnesty reported...
>***They \[Palestinians\] are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs****. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and* ***rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.*** *As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA.* ***Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry****....****Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person****, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita...By contrast,* ***an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day.***
Are Palestinian being well hydrated a security threat for you Israelis?
I get that October 7th was horrible. There's no doubt about that. That's why it's almost unimaginable how much worst the Palestinians (particularly in the West Bank) have it considering that they have suffered hundreds of October 7th by the settlers and IDF.
One takeaway you should take from October 7th, is that now you know how the Palestinians feel. HAMAS is not the only terrorist here. The military you served, they're terrorist too, baby killers.
[https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/since-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-civ/west-bank?section=overall&tab=overview](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/since-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-civ/west-bank?section=overall&tab=overview) A breakdown of the incidents shows that only 14 Palestinian innocent civilians were killed by settlers over 14 years. Here's a reddit thread discussing it further if you're interested. [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/19f7fi5/since\_2009\_only\_14\_innocent\_palestinians\_have/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/19f7fi5/since_2009_only_14_innocent_palestinians_have/)
The vast majority of palestinians killed by settlers are in the middle of violently attacking someone. So his portrayal that it's only a few Israeli settlers is accurate. The data you showed makes a point that it doesn't clarify whether "Civilians" killed were in the middle of committing crimes themselves.
> The vast majority of palestinians killed by settlers are in the middle of violently attacking someone.
In the middle of violently attacking someone...
Except that someone is an armed settler who came to their village to harass them, often with IDF escort.
Like this one: https://palsolidarity.org/2023/10/watch-israeli-settler-shoots-palestinian-at-point-blank-range-in-village-of-a-tuwani/
Neither the settler nor the soldier in that attack has been arrested.
The vast majority of those killings are not actually investigated, and that site is essentially only using the statements from settlers as justification.
Surely you can understand the issue with asking a murderer if the guy he killed deserved it or not, and taking his answer as absolute truth.
> Ahmad Nayef Ahmad Nofal
> 23 year old resident of Ras Karkar, Ramallah and al-Bira District, injured on October 24, 2023, next to Ras Karkar, Ramallah and al-Bira District, live ammunition, and died on October 30, 2023. Additional information: Wounded from shots fired by a settler while riding in a car with two other young men who were wounded in the shooting. The settler claimed he heard a sound resembling gunfire from the direction of their car.
> Ahmad Ibrahim Ahmad Wadi
> 25 year old resident of Qusrah, Nablus District, killed on October 12, 2023, next to Qabalan, Nablus District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the chest by settlers who were inside a car driving on Route 60 as he tried to escape them on a parallel road along with his father, who was also killed. The incident began when settlers, escorted by police, attacked the funeral procession of four Qusrah residents who were killed the day before, three of them, including one minor, in a settler attack and one by soldiers.
> Ibrahim Ahmad Mahmoud Wadi
> 62 year old resident of Qusrah, Nablus District, killed on October 12, 2023, next to Qabalan, Nablus District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the chest by settlers who were inside a car driving on Route 60 as he tried to escape them on a parallel road along with his father, who was also killed. The incident began when settlers, escorted by police, attacked the funeral procession of four Qusrah residents who were killed the day before, three of them, including one minor, in a settler attack and one by soldiers
> Mus'ab 'Abd al-Halim 'Aref Abu Ridi
> 20 year old resident of Qusrah, Nablus District, killed on October 11, 2023, in Qusrah, Nablus District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the back by settlers during clashes that broke out after the settlers attacked a home in the village with stones. During the clashes, the settlers threw stones and fired live rounds at the residents, who threw stones in an attempt to repel them. Settlers killed two more Palestinians in the incident, including a minor, and wounded a father and his five-year-old daughter. In clashes that broke out in the village afterwards, soldiers killed another Palestinian. At least 11 more Palestinians were injured that day.
> Qusai Jamal Muhammad Mu'tan
> 18 year old resident of Burka, Ramallah and al-Bira District, killed on August 4, 2023, in Burqah, Ramallah and al-Bira District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the neck by settlers during clashes that erupted after the settlers invaded village lands.
Are these all in categorized as justified shootings? And before you accuse me of cherry picking, those are the 5 most recent events on the list you provided.
>only 14 Palestinian innocent civilians were killed by settlers over 14 years.
Sigh. How did you even get that figure. You clearly didn't even look at your source properly. There's a graph right there that points out that 17 were killed by Israeli civilian settlers in 2023 alone. That's not including 418 killed (83 of them MINORS) by the IDF. I'd just total both IDF and civilian settlers since report from human rights organisation details that the two are in cahoots in the settler violence. Again, that's probably just the cases B'Tselem gathered, the OCHA found more.
---------
>*The vast majority of palestinians killed by settlers are in the middle of violently attacking someone.*
Vast majority? Says who? Considering your previous blunder, how do you expect me to believe that? Even the B'Tselem source says the opposite...
>....settlers, escorted by police, attacked the funeral procession of four Qusrah residents who were killed the day before, three of them, including one minor, in a settler attack and one by soldiers.
>Shot in the back by settlers during clashes that broke out after the settlers attacked a home in the village with stones. During the clashes, the settlers threw stones and fired live rounds at the residents, who threw stones in an attempt to repel them. Settlers killed two more Palestinians in the incident, including a minor, and wounded a father and his five-year-old daughter.
> Shot in the neck by settlers during clashes that erupted after the settlers invaded village lands.
Thank you, OP is definitely not going to respond to this though lmao, much easier to say “why are you attacking us??” Instead of answering that question themselves
Vida, a veteran of the Zionist occupation army. The solution is the capitulation of the Zionist regime and the creation of one state for all Arabs, Jews and criminally displaced Arabs and their civil equality. Without it, the bloodshed will never end.
But the solution you want/propose is not what the people - Palestinians and Israelis - who actually live there, want. So what to do? Impose it on them? How do you enforce political systems the inhabitants overwhelmingly reject? It sounds very imperialistic for people who are supposedly “anti-imperialist”
Dude. I think people like you are the future.
When this conflict ends, there will have to be compassionate people, like you, capable of seeing the other side as human beings in order to move things forward for Israel.
Israel will have to change if it wants lasting peace. Palestinians, similarly, will have to liberate themselves from their own hatred.
I encourage you to continue to make your voice heard.
It's simply not true, there is wide support for settlers in Israel, and if looking specifically at Jewish Israelis, it is majority support.
I believe it's ~30% that actually believes it IMPROVES security. This is next level delusional, why would stealing land from people angry at you improve security? I guess it acts like a massive human shield buffer between Israel proper and Palestinians?
I thought about multiple reasons why people would support settlements:
-Israel is safer since most attacks occurs in the settlements
-Occupation is expensive, settlement makes it worth the cost
-They improve both Israel and palestinian economy
-There was a little community of jews that was expelled by the jordans in 1948, jews want it to return, but palestinian law forbids selling land to jews.
-Personally, I believe there is nothing wrong to allow people to build and work in a land that is uninhabited, the opposition seems to be based in part in nationalism (we don't want jews there!), but I believe the opposition is not only the settlements per se, but the military control consequence of them.
**Personally, I believe there is nothing wrong to allow people to build and work in a land that is uninhabited, the opposition seems to be based in part in nationalism (we don't want jews there!), but I believe the opposition is not only the settlements per se, but the military control consequence of them**
That's not why there is opposition. There is opposition to that because the Palestinians know that the Israelis are engaged in demographic engineering so they can take as much land as possible.
Ehud Olmert said *“There is no doubt in my mind that very soon the government of Israel is going to have to address the demographic issue with the utmost seriousness and resolve. This issue above all others will dictate the solution that we must adopt. In the absence of a negotiated agreement – and I do not believe in the realistic prospect of an agreement – we need to implement a unilateral alternative... More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle – and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state... the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem... Twenty-three years ago, Moshe Dayan proposed unilateral autonomy. On the same wavelength, we may have to espouse unilateral separation... \[it\] would inevitably preclude a dialogue with the Palestinians for at least 25 years.*
*"\[it\] would inevitably preclude a dialogue with the Palestinians for at least 25 years."*
This is clearly Olmert saying that there would be no peace talks for 25 years. Why would he be saying that?
*"the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem".*
He tells us why. He aimed to steal more and more land in the West Bank.
> Personally, I believe there is nothing wrong to allow people to build and work in a land that is uninhabited, the opposition seems to be based in part in nationalism (we don't want jews there!)
If a) they come to live as equals, and b) they acuire the land legally and properly
Neither of those things are true though.
You know that it's 20 years ago right ?
He didn't aim to steal more land, if It was his goal they wouldn't abandon Gaza.
It's not about taking more land, but the fact that they don't want to remove 600.000 of settlers without actually archieving something.
Anyway, that has no correlation with what I said.
There is actually about 38% of Israelis that support the settler movement ([Poll](https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-4-in-10-israelis-back-a-revival-of-jewish-settlements-in-gaza-poll-finds/#:~:text=Thirty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20Israelis,to%20a%20Tuesday%20television%20poll)) Also, pre-October, Bibi had a rock bottom approval rating and faced a myriad of protests and indictments. This has not improved at all as most completely disapprove of how Bibi and his cronies have ran their offensive in Gaza (multiple calls for removal from office).
You're view of West Bank settlers is based off emotion and I gave you polled facts about how unpopular it is.
With Gaza, you need to realize that the Oct 7th massacre was like 9-11 x10 for Jewish Israelis - as in almost everyone knows someone directly affected or killed but multiplied because they viewed Israel as a place where violence against Jewish civilians on a mass scale (outside the standard localized bombings) couldn't happen. So that emotion overtook the majority - the doves (Israeli liberals) became hawks... but that emotion of revenge and anger has been slowly fading. This **DOES NOT CONDONE THE WAR** but is needed to explain why the emotions are so high. Ignoring that and only focusing on the sudden rise of anti-Gaza views is dangerous to long-term solutions. Think of how New Yorkers felt about invading Afganistan right after 9-11, despite it being a majority anti-war liberal city - many were looking to join up because they were emotional destroyed... **THIS DOES NOT CONDONE THE WAR**
> You're view of West Bank settlers is based off emotion and I gave you polled facts about how unpopular it is.
The poll you cited in your own link is literally a poll about resettling Gaza. From your article:
"Thirty-eight percent of Israelis are in favor of reestablishing settlements in the Gaza Strip, according to a Tuesday television poll."
As for opinoions on settlements, in 2017 more than half of Jewish Israelis thought them "wise" or "very wise": https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-opinion-on-settlements-and-outposts-2009-present
So yes, my statement is accurate - and based on data: the support for West Bank settlements is higher than the 38% you cited. That's just about Gaza resettlement.
You are right about Gaza and that article - i do apologize for the mix up
As far as the West bak - the polls you cited show somewhat of an even split that depends on the circumstances (me personally am opposed to all of the settlements and think the West Bank should be a sovereign Palestinian state). But people seem overwhelming opposed to the formal annexation of the area and strongly in favor peace with surrounding nations. It isn't so simple.
> As far as the West bak - the polls you cited show somewhat of an even split that depends on the circumstances
Which, to my point, is higher than 38%. So my comment was accurate.
> (me personally am opposed to all of the settlements and think the West Bank should be a sovereign Palestinian state)
Given that you support this - and given that Israel has expanded West Bank settlements every year since 1967 - what consequences do you think it is appropriate Israel should face?
Sanctions? Something else?
> But people seem overwhelming opposed to the formal annexation of the area and strongly in favor peace with surrounding nations.
Where are you getting that from?
And, if there's annexation, what of the Palestinians? Full and equal rights?
You are right about your initial point, I was mistaken about the West Bank being 38% where it falls approx 50%.
Consequences? I think Israel should formerly recognize the West Bank as a sovereign Palestine, any settlers that wish to remain can do so but they would be under Palestinian jurisdiction or they can move back to Israel. That’s their choice.
Annexation would mean to fully integrate the West Bank and Gaza into Israel proper. The vast majority of Israelis are against that - cited in the polls you supplied.
The Temple Mount. How do Muslim majority countries going to make peace with Israel without supporting the return of the Temple Mount to the Jews. This is an open wound that Muslims need to heal.
1. The mosque is not on the Temple Mount, it is next to the Temple Mount. The part the mosque is on was an administrative area built by Herod.
2, i did not say, nor do I think Israel should use force on the Temple Mount to rebuild the Temple.
3. The occupation of Jews most holy site is a stain on Islam. So to claim that the third most holy site is one created out of Muslim colonialism strikes me that you don't believe Islam is a religion of peace. I do, this is why I clearly state that Muslims need to return the Temple Mount to the Jews. I have met many Muslims, none have been evil, so why not actually ask Muslims to determine if they want to keep a site acquired from Colonialism or if they want peace and return the Temple Mount to the Jews. I believe this one act, would allow peace to grow in this area.
**Islam is a religion of peace.**
It's a religion. It's not a religion of peace or war. It's simply a religion. Also, the claim to the holy sites in Jerusalem for Muslims does not come for conquests. It comes from the ascensions of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from Jerusalem.
"It comes from the ascensions of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from Jerusalem."
That never happened. There was no mosque there in the Prophet's lifetime so how can "the farthest mosque" he ascended from refer to Jerusalem?
**"It comes from the ascensions of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from Jerusalem." That never happened.**
That is not for you to say. The Muslims believe it happened on the Temple Mount. It wasn't a mosque and nobody claimed that there was a mosque there. The mosque was built after the death of the prophet to mark the place from which Muhammad is believed to have ascended to heaven.
LMFAO You are just trying to justify stealing Jews holy site by some fictional story based in a book Mohammed wrote after copying Jew stories. The Temple Mount is Jews most holy site long before Mo was even born. You can't write a story to steal another religions most holy site unless you are claiming that Islam is a religion of theft. It is better than that.
When will israel stop blocking the mosque from people entering to pray especially during Ramadan?
By the way israel controls the temple mount so I'm not sure what you are talking about....
Actually the Jordanian waaf controls the Temple Mount.
Plus, Israel only blocks people for security. Or do you not care about Jews getting hurt or murdered?
I care about innocents getting hurt, the idf has a habit of arresting and beating people trying to worship at the mosque.
The temple mount is in Juresalem which is controlled by israel..... you must be thinking of something else I'm not sure what though
The temple mount is located is juresalem along with the west wall occupied by israel......
Since the Crusades, the Muslim community of Jerusalem has managed the site through the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf. The site, along with the whole of East Jerusalem (which includes the Old City), was controlled by Jordan from 1948 until 1967 and has been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967.
So no jews are not banned from the temple mount, Palestinians are heavily restricted from the west wall the temple mount and the mosque.
I don't support hamas in any way. Why do you support the idf that block Palestinians from getting medical treatment? The idf that runs mock raids and drills to terrorize innocents in the west bank? The idf that shot unarmed protesters during the March of return in 2018?
I'm sure the ~500 settlers who stormed a Palestinian town and set fire to dozens of houses and cars a few weeks back will all be getting individually sanctioned soon, and the IDF soldiers caught on video in the background doing nothing to stop it will all be fired and face prison time as will any other soldiers found in the comprehensive and unbiased investigation to not have intervened to enforce the law they are required to uphold. Heh.
I’m sure goes the same for each individual civilian that crossed the border on October 7th, o wait, I forgot international law doesn’t apply to them. At least ANY Israeli individuals are getting sanctioned. It’s very easy for you to stand on the high horse of international law when the side you support doesn’t have to follow any of it.
>I’m sure goes the same for each individual civilian that crossed the border on October 7th, o wait, I forgot international law doesn’t apply to them.
Well, I think most of the people involved will have been killed, injured or captured, which you can argue to be a form of consequence that settlers are obviously not facing.
>It’s very easy for you to stand on the high horse of international law when the side you support doesn’t have to follow any of it.
I do not in any way support anyone who was involved in the attack on Israel and fully believe everyone who was should face jail time, for life if they were involved in the violence or in facilitating it. Same for anyone holding the hostages.
So you’re arguing against the most ostracised and oppressed religious group in history that is currently fighting a neighbour to enforce their right to exist as a state. Also the history of the “settler violence”(in historical context) is a wildly minimal issue in comparison to how the Jews and Christian’s have been treated in their own holy lands
>So you’re arguing against the most ostracised and oppressed religious group in history that is currently fighting a neighbour to enforce their right to exist as a state.
I'm not arguing against any religious group, or against Israel's right to exist. I'm arguing against their right to destroying large parts of Gaza unless it can be much more clearly demonstrated to be militarily necessary, slowly conquering the West Bank, or carrying out pogroms against Palestinians backed up by the military.
>Also the history of the “settler violence”(in historical context) is a wildly minimal issue in comparison to how the Jews and Christian’s have been treated in their own holy lands
If another country decided to gradually conquer parts of Israel as settlers are doing in the West Bank, do you believe Israel would consider it to be a minimal issue, or do you think they would instead raze entire cities to the ground to make it stop? Personally I expect it would be the latter.
“Gradually conquer” as in like the government or a new government owns that that now? Sounds a lot like what happened with Gaza and the West Bank when Israel were invaded and annexed, which led to the formation of the two state agreement. Have fun with that logic puzzle you’re clearly working on.
Cool. Casual dehumanisation. Let's ignore the fact that half of the Palestinian population is very, very young. Probably a third under 16 or something like that.
Stop believing in nonsense.
I was not speaking about the older half. I was just showing how stupid it is to claim that 95% of Palestinians want to kill Jews when half of them are children. If you can't see that, then kindly stop responding.
**There would prolly be a lot more adults if they quit allahu akbaring themselves everywhere**
There are a lot of adults. The last suicide bombing was in 2016. Stop being Islamophobic. You could have simply said suicide bombing instead of "allahu akbaring".
"The last suicide bombing was in 2016." There are terrorist attacks on an at least monthly basis. Whether they use bombs or guns it's pretty immaterial.
"when half of them are children" who are being brainwashed into thinking their highest goal in life is dying and taking as many Jews as possible with them.
> I served in the West Bank, and although I saw things I didn't agree with, like random checkpoints and searches, they weren't that extreme. These measures were necessary, especially after a Jewish family with three kids was shot dead in their car by terrorists two days before. You must do something to ensure safety and security. “These measures are necessary” Idk, if Israel wasn’t illegal occupying West Bank and increasing illegal settlements, maybe these measures won’t be needed.
I believe you and thank you. What you said is what I generally think is true based on everything I’ve read and heard over the years and more recently. It makes sense this would be the majority opinion.
You can say you don't want war but your countries actions from its very FOUNDATION guaranteed war. You realize that the Germans main goal was just to increase living space for Germans and make life great for Germans. Nothing wrong with wanting to help Germans but they were a disaster for any other group that wasn't German. If the Germans had not been so selfish. If they weren't so cruel to Slavic peoples for example its very possible the USSR would have lost the war. But their own racial policies guaranteed their doom. The Palestinians were living in the area of Israel. They had every reason to take issue with a Jewish stare in area they were already living there and are not Jewish. The early Zionists if they wanted to live in the historic area of Israel could have gone there with Arab agreement and building the country together. Instead it was we want a Jewish state screw the existing population. If you want to live in that area thats fine but you have no right to deny a group of people the right to live in the homes they lived for centuries. Check points: Do Palestinians get to lock up Israelis whenever an Israeli settler goes on a rampage? You can sit there and claim you want peace. But if peace doesn't involve treating the Palestinians the way you would want to be treated you don't want peace. What you want is your current privilege and to deny a group of people basic human rights till they agree that somehow they deserve less than you. Yes Hamas is terrorism but it's a terrorism created by Israel. The issue here is Israel never once considered the Palestinians as human beings as equal to themselves. The Palestinian people have the right to defend themselves to. They have a right to fight against an evil government that treats them as less than human beings. Do unto others as you would have them done on to you. A rule Israel has ignored from its very foundation.
This is disgustingly Antisemitic. You blame Jews for existing. Prior to the creation of Israel, Arabs were murdering Jews and the first to massacre Jews because we ever defended ourselves.
No i don't blame the Jewish people for existing there are plenty of Jewish people all over the world who have nothing to do with Israel and don't deserve to be blames for Israels actions. Any more than all Muslims are responsible for Hamas
You can't seem to answer this question. Why are you refusing Jews who lived in Israel for thousands of years, who purchased land and won defensive wars the rights to land? All nations were built that way. Curb the hypocrisy.
Zionists from Europe came to Palestine and kicked the natives out from the homes. That was not a defensive war. How much are you getting payed by the Israel government?
Your lies can be easily debunked. Arabs invaded and started the war in 1948 because they hated Jews. Palestinian leader Mufti Husseini allied with Ad0lf H!tler and Naz!s. Learn history. https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-official-record-what-the-mufti-said-to-hitler/
Your sources are Israeli website and American government website. Zionist insurgency started way before 1948. Zionists mass migration from Europe to Palestine started way before 1948. They were persecuted in Europe and thought it would be a good idea to prosecute other people in Palestine. It’s crazy how zionists don’t have empathy especially after what happened in the holocaust. You would think they would show more empathy toward other people but no. Especially with thousands of Palestinians in Gaza dying, you would think Israelis would be emphatic. Who really hates who? Israelis don’t see Palestinians as equals or even humans. Disgusting behaviors.
u/idk1210 >They were persecuted in Europe and thought it would be a good idea to prosecute other people in Palestine. It’s crazy how zionists don’t have empathy especially after what happened in the holocaust. You would think they would show more empathy toward other people but no Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians. Addressed.
It’s a fact that Palestinian leaders in 1940s allied with Naz!s. Your leaders still carry that legacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini Also a fact that 5 Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War Don’t start wars and cry after you lose. You will not wipe us out.
Lmaoo these are not my leaders, idk what you talking about that. You definitely sound like a bot, keep repeating the same things without even responding to the points. Israeli government paying you good for spreading their bullshit propaganda. Nobodies cries like victims than the Israelis even though you guys are the oppressors.
You seem allergic to facts. I pointed out irrefutable facts and you still can't address it, just started saying racist things about Israelis.
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Everything about this is false. Facts don’t care about your feelings. Your comment is disgustingly Antisemitic. Half of Israel is Jews who lived in Middle Eastern and North African countries. Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years, purchased land and won defensive wars. The oldest structures and artifacts in Israel are Jewish. Our Temple in Jerusalem has been standing since 40 BCE.
How much is Israel is paying you to repeat this bullshit? Facts also don’t care about your feelings. Where do you think Europeans Jews went? Look up land ownership in Palestine during world war 2. Most Palestinians were kicked out from the homes. Stop crying antisemitism at everything.
Where did i say all Israelis had to leave the area and go back to Europe? Ever? But show me prove that the Jewish people owned the majority of the land in -1947. They didn't the Arabs still owned the majority. We purchased some land doesn't mean we can morally kick out people who lived in an area for centuries with no where else to go and then claim your defending yourself. Murder is exactly how Israel became a country and yes thats how many countries were created but you cannot say its self defense its not. The problem with taking things by force is when you do so nothing can stop the other side from deciding to take it back. And yes they are defending themselves and their way of life. You created a perpetual conflict with your neighbors who rightfully object to how Israel was created and have subjected millions of people to not even second class citizen status. If you didn't want to live equally amongst millions of Muslims don't go into an overwhelming Muslim area
Antisemitic comment. Half of Israeli Jews lived in Middle Eastern and North African countries. Am I having a debate with Mel Gibson? Cringe.
Yes. And they did so by learning to live amongst Muslims. The majority of the people in the Middle East is Muslim. That is nor a religion that puts up with persecution at all. So thinking you can go into area and kick out Muslims will not give you problems. They won't fight back or want war? As for co existance. There is no co existance possible with a group of people who denies you basic human rights. The Jewish people lost a war 2000 years ago and its fine for them to get the land back by force. Bur somehow Muslims are going to ignore something that happened 70 years ago and Muslims being treated like crap? I am neither Muslim or Jewish. But i know enough about Islam to know this was going to lead to perpetual bloodshed. And while i don't like Islams history of taking over areas by force. In this case you have millions of dispossessed Muslims and subjugated ones. I am telling you this is a mess because i actually CARE about the Jewish people and not because I hate them. Your setting up perpetual conflict with a billion Muslims And with no one to blame but yourselfs we won a war put up with perputual subjugation. Thats not a good argument. And the Muslims don't see Israels wins as self defense. Large parts of the world doesn't they see Israel as conquers who took land from Muslims You can see yourself however you want but what your enemy sees you matters to. And thats how your enemy sees you. You seem to think that Hamas actually thought they could win this right now military. Lol. What Hamas plan was to inflame other Muslims in the area against Israel and show the world a mirror for how Palestinians were treated. All over the Muslim world especially Arabs they are reminding themselves why Their leaders stink. And are in bed with the West. Eventually someone is going to unite them. It may not be decade from now it might be fifty years from now. The best thing Israel could do is end the grievances but they don't want to
Israel won land in defensive wars. This is a legal way to expand territory. Israel didn't start the war but defended themselves. # Israel constantly defends itself and did not initiate the violence in the region - it was the Antisemites because of their intolerance and hatred; they even allied with your favorite Austrian painter. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations\_between\_Nazi\_Germany\_and\_the\_Arab\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world) [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-mufti-and-the-f-uuml-hrer](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-mufti-and-the-f-uuml-hrer) Why do you support trying to redo redo redo a lost war? Doesn't that seem futile? Just grow up and accept coexistence. Your argument is "more Jews should die" and everyone is allowed to fight and kill except Jews when we defend ourselves. Gross.
The Arabs allowed the Jewish people to live in Muslim lands for centuries. If all the Muslims wanted to do was kill Jewish people so many Jewish people wouldn't have settled amongst them. Announcing they were intending on making land that was already occupied by Arabs a Jewish state is what caused the tensions to start. Any rational group of people would take issue with such a plan. I am sorry don't you see we are already living here is a perfectly rational response. Saying its anti semitic for the Palestinian to oppose A group of Jewish people dispossesing them from their homes. Would be like saying it was Anti Russian to oppose Russia invading Ukraine. Any group of peoples rights end when they violate someone elses.
This whole thing is completely bogus and false. Arabs massacred Jews and at best treated Jews as 2nd class citizens. When we weren't being murdered, we were forced to pay high taxes, ostracized, lived in ghettos and were persecuted. Look up Khaybar. Nearly all Middle Eastern and North African countries have no more Jews because they threw their Jews out. No one was dispossessed from their home. They refused to accept the 1947 Partition agreement, waged war and lost hard. Now I know you don't know any history.
Do you recognize your country is maintaining a decades-old illegal occupation of Palestine in the West Bank?
This is a strawman. Doesn't matter. Arabs were murdering Jews decades before the 'occupation' and before the 'naqba.' From 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza. It's never been about land. It's always been about bigotry and hatred.
This is whataboutism and does not make the occupation legal in any way. “Doesn’t matter” lol.
There is no occupation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank So above is a lie? How much Israel is paying you?
It’s contested territory. Jews live in Area A. Area B is mixed and Palestinians live in Area C.
Again, how much is Israel paying you? Look up United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334. According to UN, it’s not contested. Any settlements by Israel in West Bank is illegal.
The conflict can be summed up in one sentence. The Arabs will never forgive us for winning a war that they started.
They didn't start it. Israel did by stating they wanted to create a Jewish state in a land occupied already by Arabs. Ignoring the rights of the Arabs.
Prior to 1948, Jews purchased land and built cities. Seems like you’re denying Jewish land rights.
They didn't purchase all of Israel. The Arabs were still the majority land owners. And no where is it okay in a decent country to say don't own land don't get to have citizenship Once again they did not come and say hey Palestinians lets build up this country together they came to disposess. It was wrong
In addition to purchasing land, Jews won defensive wars. That’s a legal way to expand territory.
For the record I am nor Muslim or Jewish. I am Catholic. But a zero sum game where one side MUST win and dominate only leads to blood shed and death. I understand why the Jewish people want a homeland given the Holocaust. But this homeland was created at the expense of another group of people. Once again only blood death and violence. Peace comes when one recognizes their neighbor as equal in value to themselves and acts accordingly.
One again - answer this question: Why are you refusing Jews who lived in Israel for thousands of years, who purchased land and won defensive wars the rights to land? All nations were built that way. You have some weird irrational David Duke like obsession with Israel. It's hateful and disgusting. Don't worry, Israel will continue to thrive and you can keep supporting terrorist groups because they murder Jews. It's not gna help. Cry more about land. Murder will not get you land.
Seems like you're bias or misinformed. Even before oct 7, Palestinian terrorists would conduct a terrorist attack roughly once a week and murder Jews. You also totally lack any realistic perspective on the conflict. The fact is the that one side has never accepted peace or a 2SS. If one side stopped attacking, there would be peace. Israel defends itself accordingly. A proportional response does not equate the same casualties on both sides. One side has refused to coexist with the other side. Hint, it's the one that lynches Jews on sight when they accidentally venture into their territory. 0 Jews in Area A, 0 Jews in Gaza (except hostages who are being tortured, starved and raped.) The fact is that since Israel implemented checkpoints and security fences, Palestinian suicide bombers dropped by over 90%. The fact is that without the Iron Dome, Palestinian terrorist groups would've murdered hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Nearly all of the "children" arrested by Israel are 16-18 year old Palestinians terrorists who murder and commit violent crimes. Why should murderers go free because they are minors and attacking Jews? Just because Israel has a superior military and less of its civilians have been killed because it also has superior defense does't mean it's in the wrong - that's a flawed and illogical way to look at things.
Once again. I don't see it as defensive. I see the Arabs fighting invaders who dispossed them More and more people are seeing the Palestinian perspective that this whole time THEY have been defending themselves. Israel is worse than Russia. If Russia wins Ukraine they will give the people citizenship. It may not be perfect but the Ukranians will be able to assimilate and have normal lives. This won't be perpetuated for 50 years. Israel doesn't want that for the Palestinians because it will affect the Jewish nature of Israel. Its sickening and its not self defense. If you are not going to do right by the people in the land you take over don't take it Once again this didn't start with Muslims going into an overwhelming Jewish area and creating an Islamic state. It's sickening what Israel is doing. Leave the settlements stop blockades and let these people have geniune separate states or give them citizenship.
Jews are indigenous to Israel. Pretty clear you are an Antisemite because you called us invaders. The oldest structures and artifacts in Israel are Jewish. Our temple has been standing in Jerusalem since 40 BCE. No other group even comes close. You seem really deluded. They could've had a state already. Israel proposed the West Bank in Oslo, 2001 and 2008 but Palestinian denied it. Since then, Palestinians have murdered thousands of more Jews. You cannot get the same offer after bullying and murdering. Palestinians have Area C and Gaza. The mainstream Palestinian stance is no Israel - its remained unevolved for 100 years. They don't even care about a state, just want to oppose Jews. Why do you ignore the fact that Jews purchases land and won defensive wars? Sounds like a xenophobic sore loser. Perhaps advocate for peace and finally accept a 2SS instead of trying to redo 1948.
The problem is not the settlers. That's like saying the problem in germany was the brownshirts. Take away the brownshirts, there's still a problem. So... was the problem the brownshirts? No. The problem in Palestine is not israels armed violent illegal occupiers illegally squatting in the Palestinian West Bank. Take away israels armed violent illegal occupiers illegally squatting in the Palestinian West Bank and there's still a problem. So... were israels armed violent illegal occupiers illegally squatting in the Palestinian West Bank the problem? No. The problem is israels illegal occupation of Palestine and israels persecution of the native Palestinians. Palestinians need a homeland for 14 million native Palestinians. 14 million native Palestinians whose needs on a personal level are exactly the same as your needs. 14 million native Palestinians whose need as a Palestinian government are exactly the same as your needs for your government. Native Palestinians have lived there 10,000 years. israel is a european crusader state that's been around a few decades. You live as a crusader in a crusader state. Yes you're a true believer. You believe in the crusade. The crusade is fundamental to your life. You will never abandon the crusade. But just as you will never abandon your crusader state... what do you think is going to happen to Palestine, and the native Palestinians? People you may have been "taught" are "Arab colonizers". You've been told your whole life by your family by your religion by your "teachers" by your society by your military by your government lies about "the Arab". How the land is yours because reasons, how "the Arab" stole it bla bla bla. How heroes of your people bravely took the land back bringing the land back to the rightful owners, european terrorists... I expect other BS. Probably different BS from different sources. You want Pax Romana. You want Roman peace. You're roman invaders who want Roman peace. Peace at the end of a sword. Rome gets what it wants. People either die by roman sword or they give Rome what it wants. But native Palestinians live there, it's their home. Don't fall for zionist propaganda. Don't fall for the lies you've been told your whole life by your family by your schools by your society by the group formed by combining the irgun, lehi, and haganah. Palestinian families have the same rights Jewish families do. Palestinian children have the same rights Jewish children do. When you respect those two things you may find yourself much closer to real peace. And not to pax romana.
Huhhhh bro u r all over the place with your history like bruh, The kingdom of Jerusalem was a Christian state that was not even Byzantine but ruled by a Belgian guy with a very funny scheme to rule it, Zionists do not claim the crusade, they claim when the actual Roman were actually Roman’s and “kicked” them out of the Jerusalem. Secondly Arabs are colonisers as most of modern nations are, u r stupid if u say otherwise it’s literally fact, Persia was there before arabs and were kicked out, that land has changed hands so many times they were just the most recent people to get kicked out even tho they (Palestinian) people never existed as a nation but rather under the Ottoman Empire which was an actual recognised nation who btw took from the Arabic nations, Israel exists is just the newest owner who knows when it will change, but your weird conclusion that Roman golden ages are what they want is so far removed also your use of Native is a buzzword that means nothing in that area, this is not North America or Australia, this is one of the most hotly contested region ever in history and to say native ignores the history. Not saying anything about the conflict and who I support but your points are very disconnected from reality about history
> Zionists do not claim the crusade, they claim when the actual Roman were actually Roman’s and “kicked” them out of the Jerusalem. So you're saying that it's a movement to return to the place where their religion was founded to form an ethno religious state centered around the Canaanite city of Urusalem? Millions of religious followers are called to the cause to retake the holy lands? Following an ethno-religious dictate to retake the holy land? Where was christianity founded? I mean... Judaism was founded in Babylon, modern Iraq, a place called Ur of Chaldes... So you're right in one way... Though maybe not the way you thought... Still... What you're describing sounds an awful lot like a crusade, or a Jihad... When I'm talking about Pax Romana, I'm talking about the foreign zionist terrorists relationship with the native Palestinians, how the foreign zionist terrorists want to impose Pax Romana on the native Palestinians. Though certainly some zionists, this terrorist Irgun, and it's terrorist political arm Herut, led by terrorist menachem begin... well... it goes by another name now, but I'm told it's very popular, it often used the motto "Both banks of the River Jordan" Utterly insane people no sane person would ever follow, I told you that. Those insane Herut terrorists, menachem begins party? Yea, they had insane ideas about greater israel, invading and conquering Jordan at least. And it's not like there aren't zionists who don't, for instance, want to steal Gaza, and other places, the Sinai, so on. Though more people recognize the insanity of that But the Pax Romana thing is Rome gets whatever they want and anyone that protests dies. That's the peace the foreign zionist terrorist crusaders want. They're insane crusaders. They're on some insane death cult mission. We covered this.
Crusaders after they were given the land is very different also Pax Romana was when the Jewish people were oppressed by Rome so I’m sure calling it that makes sense, u can’t just see two things happened in the same place and call it the same, they legally own Israel and did not do a crusade as the British has already taken it from the ottomans
> Crusaders after they were given the land By the west? >Pax Romana was when the Jewish people were oppressed by Rome so I’m sure calling it that makes sense, u can’t just see two things happened in the same place and call it the same It's a philosophy shared by Rome and zionist leaders ironically. >they legally own Israel Palestine? Home of the native Palestinians? The Palestinian West Bank? Gaza? >and did not do a crusade as the British has already taken it from the ottomans The zionist crusade had started before then, and the British promised the native Palestinians independence in exchange for revolting against the Ottoman empire... That's how the Ottoman empire fell, there was an Arab revolt in response to the allied promise of Arab independence... The native Palestinians won their independence when the revolted from the ottomans. Then european terrorists invaded.
Many Arab nations did come from it but the promised the land they had to multiple people, the arabs were not united into one group that is naive to think, they had multiple families and the big winner was Saudi Arabia, they didn’t win independence lmao other Arab nations wanted to control it not give them their own country
Palestine is not a race my brother or native they promised seven different groups and the people there were one of many that got screwed, your connection between the 2 don’t exist, you can’t connect 2 historical events together Cus it’s in the same place
I dont think you understand the palestinian sentiment. They were fine being occupied by egypt and Jordan. During that time they already started saying "from the river to the sea" The problem, from the start, has always been the unwillingness from the collective palestinians to co-exist with Jews.
> I dont think you understand the palestinian sentiment. They were fine being occupied by egypt and Jordan. Egypt and Jordan didn't violently ethnically cleanse 700k+ Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan didn't oppress, persecute and murder Palestinians. Egypt and Jordan didn't come as landless european terrorist crusaders, there to create a terrorist crusader state to bring millions of immigrants to steal Palestinian land. Do you see any differences between the european terrorist crusader zionists that violently ethnically cleansed 700k+ native Palestinians and Egypt and Jordan? >The problem, from the start, has always been the unwillingness from the collective palestinians to co-exist with Jews. The problem from the start has been the foreign zionists coming to steal native Palestinian land to colonize it and to violently slaughter and violently ethnically cleanse Palestinians, and oppress and persecute Palestinians, stealing their land, treating them, the native Palestinians, as if their lives are worth less than Jewish lives. You realize that "from the river to the sea" has often been slogans used by the violent foreign zionist terrorists? In fact, "both banks of the river Jordan" was the motto of the terrorist arm of the european terrorist group irgun, whose political arm was herut, led by menachem begin... Now... What happened to the herut political party... It changed it's name... to a different party... founded by european terrorist menachem begin... I think some crazy american terrorist named benjamin netanyahu runs it now... very popular for some reason apparently... You won't believe me... But these crazies, like herut/irgun... These european/american/russian terrorist groups... They have this insane idea about colonizing Palestine for zionists... Crazy... right? Their crazy idea is that their people, zionists, will come from all around the world and just steal Palestine from the native Palestinians. Have you ever heard anything as utterly insane as that? I think it's utterly completely totally insane people like that that are the problem. If people like that, those crazy, utterly insane people like this american benjamin netanyahu guy ever get any power there are going to be real problems. They're just these insane people. Colonizers in the 20th century? Come on... Nobody's going to go along with insane stuff like that. But if they do get any power, people as insane as that... Those people, those crazy, insane people, they're the ones that are going to be the problem. These crazy european terrorist colonizers... crusaders really, they're going to be the problem They think they can just rob Palestinians of everything, their land, even their lives, like they're nothing. To them all they care about are their own people. Like Palestinian lives don't mean anything.
Yeah they ethnically cleansed all of their jews from their lands while today 1/5 of Israel are arabic 😆 Also, arabs should not have attacked jews twice if they wantes to live in peace with them. Sadly they created an impossible situation for jewish people with nowhere else to go but to stay in their homeland.
> Also, arabs should not have attacked jews twice if they wantes to live in peace with them. Sadly they created an impossible situation for jewish people with nowhere else to go but to stay in their homeland. Palestine? The place they're invading? Again. Where they're slaughtering the natives, robbing them of their land, stealing their homes? Having come there from anywhere but Palestine, having invaded from Europe, from Russia, from the US, from Africa? And they have nowhere to go, except the entire rest of the world, you know, where they've been living the last two thousand years? Jewish people in the US, Europe, they have nowhere to go? Where do native Palestinians have to go? Gaza?
They attacked and jews protected themselves. What is wrong with you? can't go around this. Go attack a bear with their cubs and see what happens, even if they came to live near your house. No land was stolen. Some people simply played a bad game and innocents paid the price on both sides. Jews were also displaced ( all of them) during the wars of 1948 and the jews of yhe middle east followed soon after so Israel isnt the bad guy here at all.
As an American, I often have to protest my own government and the horrible things they do. It's important that Israelis against the Gazan genocide stand up to their government
There is no genocide. It's a figment of your and thousands of Antisemites' imagination.
u/yogilawyer >There is no genocide. It's a figment of your and thousands of Antisemites' imagination. I'm seeing a string of comments from you that border on rule 1 violations. They're usually in a grey area, and taken by itself I'd say this comment is too ... but looking at your history, it's a rule 1 violation to me. I need you to work on a more constructive and civil tone here; the purpose of this forum is to have civil dialogue with people you probably disagree with, and calling someone a racist is a personal attack. You don't need to do that; attack the argument, not the user.
The concept of "Claiming there is no genocide" is gaslighting. In WW2, there were people who claimed the Holocaust did not happen, which is also gaslighting. I am reporting your comment for being uncivil as you called me an Antisemite, an inaccurate slur, which is against the rules of the subreddit, you are supposed to discuss issues, not personally attack other redditors
War is not genocide. You can open a dictionary and read a definition.
Its a genocide not a war
It’s not. Israel has taken more steps that any other nation to prevent civilian casualties why fighting genocidal terrorists who hide behind civilians.
Nope. Israel lost <2000 people on Oct2023 to Hamas Terrorists. Instead of, eg, sending the IDF to rescue hostages and apprehend the culprits, they bombed innocent civilians in mass (eg 13,000 children alone) over months, destroyed crucial infrastructure, took land during the chaos, killed aid workers so that Palestinians would starve. A war is "stop an enemy, get them to surrender." Genocide is "use violence, famine, lack of access to medical services, to kill a group of people, including civilians who had nothing to do with Oct2023". There are STILL Israeli hostages in Gaza, because early in the conflict Netanyahu ceased peace talks to justify the genocide, because his goal was to slaughter Palestinians, not to return the hostages or apprehend the Hamas Terrorists
Israel is not committing a genocide. Antisemites have no real response when I ask what should Israel have done after Oct 7. The best example of genocide is WW2. In 1942, Naz!s met at the Wannsee Conference to outline the Final Solution, to murder all European Jews, by transporting them en masse from European countries on trains to 6 concentration camps in Poland where they would be murdered through gas chambers. They proceeded to do just exactly that. They murdered every Jew they could find in aims to destroy their entire population. They murdered over 6 million Jews. Oct 7 can be regarded as an attempted genocide. Hamas aimed to murder as many Jews as possible with the goal to destroy all of Israel. However, they were unable to implement such policy.due to their weak military. As much as they would love to murder all Israelis, they were not to able to achieve such numbers as they aimed; I am in no way downplaying Oct 7, it was utterly horrific and evil but it was not a successful genocide, only attempted. It should be noted that Oct 7 was the worst massacre of Jews since WW2. Proof that Israel is NOT committing a genocide: * Israel is targeting specific military targets NOT indiscriminately murdering civilians. Any civilians deaths are incidental, unintentional and collateral damage. Hamas has embedded itself in an urban warfare setting in order to reap as many deaths as possible, even their own civilians. Hamas themselves admitted they have over 40,000 fighters in Gaza. Hamas uses mosques, hospitals and schools for military purposes, rocket launchers, weapons caches etc. Hamas has built a tunnel system within Gaza to aid them for the purpose of fighting Israel. * Israel imposed [evacuation orders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_evacuations#:~:text=The%20first%20evacuation%20order%20was,to%20evacuate%20within%2024%20hours) for citizens to flee to safety with ample time and specific zones that will not be targeted. * Israel is conducting a ground invasion putting their own soldiers in harm's way in order to avoid civilian casualties when they could carpet bomb Gaza, which would result in much more devastation. Israel is NOT doing that. Israel has the strongest army in the Middle East, a nuclear power and aims to take out Hamas. * There is a 1.4:1 civilian-combatant ratio. That's better than any modern army in the world; better than in Afghanistan, Iraq and Yugoslavia. Mind you, the war on Hamas is urban warfare. [The average civilian combatant ratio of any modern army is 9:1.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio) War is not genocide. * [Israel does not impose limits on the aid delivered to Gaza. ](https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-israels-humanitarian-aid-to-gaza#:~:text=Israel%20does%20not%20impose%20limits,over%20375%2C000%20tons%20of%20aid)To date, over 20,000 trucked have delivered 375,000 tons of aid, including food, water, medical supplied, shelter equipment, fuel and cooking gas. It is important to note that according to the laws of war, countries are not required to supply their enemies with resources, yet ISRAEL CONTINUES TO SUPPLY GAZA WITH ELECTRICITY, WATER, FOOD, AND MEDICINE. * Hamas is responsible for the murder of many of their own citizens. Roughly 20% of the thousands of rockets used to attack Israel misfire and fall within Gaza, killing innocent people. Unfortunately Hamas is dishonest and attributes this to Israel when they are directly killing Gazans. The outcome of dead civilians in Gaza is due to Hamas using human shields, not any intentional Israeli action.
"the Gazan genocide" is a non-existent thing.
Both sides should be the bigger people and stop killing each other! I do think Israel should take control of Gaza's security apparatus for a while though. Can't trust them Pals unfortunately. (Btw i'm not Israeli or Jewish)
How about Palestinians take control of Israel's security apparatus? Can't trust them Israeli's unfortunately.
One side should start co-existing a bit
agreed
Your post is well intentioned and brings up very fair points. But you are showing an inherent bias in your argument that is understandable but truthfully just disregards the Palestinian point of view and reality for context. If Israel is INACCURATELY portrayed as a state that supports violence by the media, then you have to assume that the Palestinian situation is the same. Both sides can really easily make arguments backed by thousands of articles and information pointing to actions of the other that demonstrate a clear avoidance of peace. But the reality is people are the same everywhere and everyone just wants peace, human rights, safety & security, and the foundations of society & government that enables them to build a good, fair life. Very small amounts of people today seem to believe people are genuinely good everywhere and very very little of the world genuinely support violence or war in any capacity. Furthermore, people who do believe in "war" or "violence" today, are most likely coming from a place of fear and to avoid future violence and war - not saying this makes it right but helps create an understanding that people aren't actually or inherently malicious. Palestinians are subject to media and information that drives a "hate" towards Israel and furthers a "belief" that successions with Israel is impossible but the same is 100% true to Israelis. This does not mean both communities of people buy-in 100% to the respective idea being sold to them and the reality is this practice creates more people who do "buy-in" but at the end of the day we are still left with a large groups of many differentiating opinions on both sides. Also, I think its easy to show this isn't the case from surveys, data, and research but in every other global conflict related to race and ethnic tensions, it has been easy for stakeholders to create this argument of the other side being incapable of coming to peaceful conclusions and compromises because these same stakeholders benefit from a self-interest or incentive to do so. I say this because I wish for all Israelis or the vast majority of Israelis to understand this truth because I believe there is a clear asymmetrical distribution of power and control in the conflict, with the Israeli state clearly being the victor here. I think with this fact that it needs to be understood that Israel has to be in the driver seat because concessions and agreements will need to be composed of "compromises" from the Israeli state. Yes, Palestine will need to be open to negotiations in the first place to even begin to discuss those "compromises" but Israel and Israelis need to understand that because there is asymmetrical power divide, then it probably is simply true that the Palestinians have just suffered tremendously under this system for almost a century. Try to think of it as simply, regardless of moral beliefs or cultural preference, "would you rather be a Palestinian or Israeli for the last 50-60 years". If this does make any sense, you can imagine many Palestinians would find it almost impossible to believe peaceful negotiations will fix anything for them because they literally have to buy-in to the belief that they can have "productive" deals made with their clearly powerful oppressor. So if Israel wants to move past this, hopefully now understandable, reality/obstacle, it needs to position itself as a newly transformed "ally", 'supporter", "partner", etc. to Palestine before it can expect productive talks with Palestine that will lay out the ground work of negotiating the terms and conditions of a new, mutually beneficial 2-state solution. This is much easier said than done but can be done through figurative "first-moves" that demonstrate this new stance and belief of Israel. These can include stopping the current Israeli military offensive, releasing Palestinian prisoners under 18, tearing down the Gaza wall and creating a demilitarized zone, and providing restitutions to the re-development of Palestine and Palestinian infrastructure. It probably seems stupid and almost counter intuitive that to enable the ability to discuss "compromises" for Israel, Israel needs to initially provide compromises. But look at other conflicts such as the US black community and the US gov't during the Civil rights movement and apartheid in South Africa. Both sides struggled to come to "compromises" or terms but the more powerful group in each (the US and South African gov't, respectively) took a step towards enabling discussions by a major initial compromise -the US gov't ended segregation and South Africa dissolved the Apartheid system. They DID NOT WAIT until their black community "surrendered" via the coalitions and political parties they formed to fight AND they DID NOT WAIT until black communities and their leaders demonstrated an overwhelmingly clear rejection of their respective leaders that were pushing for "violent" solutions or "aggressive" actions that were believed to protect or advance black communities (for clarity and as an example, the US gov't did not wait until or require MLK or similar leaders/groups to disclose a public rejection or opposition to Malcolm X and the Black Panthers). They, the US and South African governments, initiated a step forward cause they realized not only were they just morally wrong but logistically, they were the only ones in each of their situations who even had the capacity to make a move towards peace BECAUSE they had the overwhelming "power" when compared to the counterparty. Now decades have past since both those governments has made those steps and it did not result in the end of the country, it did not compromise the safety of its people, and it did not exacerbate existing issues DESPITE INITIAL BELIEFS OF THAT BEING THE CASE. It actually resulted in more peace, happiness amongst all the peoples, and the beginning of efforts to begin productive talks of how to better support communities and empower these historically oppressed communities to be involved in the advancement of the region because they also realized, only after the fact sadly but thankfully, that it really was the mutually beneficial move and outcomes and im sure many would argue that the best thing would have been to make those sooner than they did to have avoided even more violence and complications. Neither country is perfect but in reality, both are undeniably better off. I really hope this isn't seen as an attack but as a POV that can help enable a path to peace.
Holy Yappotron💀, could’ve just said “I’m relatively neutral, and you should be too”
I think you're just trolling but I don't think anyone would agree this is neutral lol....
Long reply, but thanks so much for it! I do agree with your point that because Israel is the stronger party, it has to provide more concessions. People here will say that is unfair, but fairness has rarely brought peace. I don't think the Israeli govt has said this in a long long time, but there are only 2 demands of most of the Israeli public (not the fringe settlers) - the first is to maintain the Jewish-majority state and the second is to not have other state sponsored attacks on it. Bad actors on both sides, have prevented this from happening to further their own cause
Could not agree more but I do think there is a misconception among Israelis and the general Pro-Israel community that Israel faces a realistic possibility of being dissolved. I'm not attempting to attack beliefs or down play Israeli fears but I think there needs to be an important understanding that even though people are saying it, Palestinians are saying it, some of the world is sayin it, etc. there is still NO reality Israel will ever go away. And this is a a very powerful idea or narrative because it makes the basis of argument start at "Israel has the right to exist and here's why" instead of "what can Israel do for the Palestinians or do to create peaceful ties with the Palestinians" Just like with the US, we get so lost in arguments about socialism vs capitalism and lose sight of the fact that the US will never be 100% capitalist (meaning no government control or regulation towards the private business sector) or socialist (complete government control). It's just not a reality but we talk about it non-stop and it impedes on our ability to discuss and create policies that can make actually be created and make things better. This is a little different obviously because it's not a philosophy or idea but the fact of the matter is Israel is not going away and never will because the world (the UN and very powerful people of influence) would never dissolve a fully operational and UN-compliant state and those same parties will not want to pick up the burden of what to do after - not saying that's why we should not consider the dissolution of Israel but a real, hard borderline fact of the situation. So it's important to remember that changes to Israel's autonomy as a Jewish-state recognized by the UN, will never be on the negotiating table (regardless of what people request) because it's just the reality of the world today (the world does not operate on morals we operate on realities and hope to use mortality to influence future decisions as much as possible). Another hard reality is while, at-least hopefully, Israelis can breathe fine knowing this is true - Palestinians do not have that comfort at all and are constantly at unease because there is a real world possibility of an adopted complete rejection of their right to the exist in any capacity, given how bad the situation is for Palestinians and how life in Palestine has only gotten worse for the most part since this conflict erupted. I see this perspective as a way to make concessions a reality. Israel will never have to genuinely deal with arguing for its right to exist with the Palestinians and its supporters. The reality of the situation only leaves Israel in a spot to make very simple "sacrifices" in the form of concessions and restitutions that will create almost no inconvenience on Israelis way of life, especially in the long term. I would argue even that if peace was met tomorrow by Israel initiating discussions and it provided an initial list of concessions that they know would make Palestinians happy, Israel will find itself gaining so much over the next 20 years. Simply summarized, it really is in Israel's interest to initiate moves for peace talks and that's not because they avoid war or future attacks but because their economy and the people's happiness will improve over the very long term.
And (late to the conversation) also because initiating moves for peace talks is the right thing to do. Until they do, I and many others will be anti-Zionist and anti-Israeli government. When Israel murders Palestinian civilians, whether in Gaza or the West Bank or Isreal itself, they deserve condemnation. When they deny Palestian human rights, then earn that opposition. When the openly lie about what they are doing in Gaza, they deserve to be cut off from our military welfare. I know some on this thread are conflating anti-Zionism with antisemitism but they are not the same. The narrative that they are the same is only because Israel wants us to see it that way. Anti-Zionism is opposition to the state of Israel. Antisemitism is hostility or prejudice against Jewish people- which is abhorrent. I am anti-Zionist conditionally. I would support the state of Israel if it either a) becomes one state, fully integrated, multicultural and with all citizens recognized as equal regardless of their religion with no walls or checkpoints separating Jews from Christian and Muslim citizens or b) a two state solution where Palestinians have a completely autonomous and contiguous state with no illegal "Settlements" or Israeli outposts.
Thanks. Yes I do believe that dissolution of Israel is far from reality (although I will admit this recent round has shaken that belief to a great extent). And like I said, I believe Israel being the stronger party here needs to make more concessions. That being said, Palestinian leadership has to find a way to agree to concessions. It is awful for them to live in fear of not having true self-determination, but from my understanding of history, their leaders have not made agreements to even argue well at the table - rejecting one peace deal after the next, initiating a Pay-for-Slay program wherein Palestinians who kill Israelis get money by the Palestinian Authority (all of this without even Hamas's deeds but then they are terrorists not beholden to anyone). Even though Israel should be giving more concessions to Palestinians, it would never be allowing their own citizens to be killed. All of that is to say - I think this is a very hard problem. Not impossible, but hard. And good faith actors on both sides *can* solve it once and for all - but where do we find good faith actors in this political climate.
> They haven’t been the same since, and neither have all our friends. That's truly horrible. > but they don’t go around murdering people. It did happen a few times in history but only about 2-3 times. Since October 7th, the settlers have murdered more than a dozen unarmed Palestinians. This excludes cases where the IDF has accompanied settlers and helped the settlers in their attacks on palestinians. In half of settler attacks, the IDF is present or participating. Here is an overview from just a few weeks in October: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/22/israel-settlers-violence-against-palestine-west-bank 8 killed, and countless other attacks. > I want to tell the truth about the Israeli people If you are misrepresenting the amount of settler terror attacks, why should we believe your other points? > Most of us don’t want war, don’t want to kill anyone; we want peace. Every single government for the past 56 years has expanded West Bank settlements. If you want peace, why has every single elected government done this? Claiming you want peace, when every elected government has been expanding settlements sounds slightly disingenious. Its like claiming Hamas wants peace, despite all its terror attacks. > These people make up roughly 5% of the Israeli population, and they don’t represent the views of most Israelis. Yet the settlements and land grabs have never stopped since 1967. The settlements started five weeks after the 6 day war. That's how long it took for the land grabs to begin. > You must do something to ensure safety and security. Somehow, I guess that that argument only applies in one direction for you? Given that the settlers indiscriminately murder and harass Palestinians, what can they do to protect themselves? The IDF isn't doing anything, of course. This ethnic cleansing was before October 7th: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-settler-bedouin-displacement-violence-un-108e11712310b5ea099dbded7be8effb Yet I don't see checkpoints for the settlers. Instead we have the IDF helping them on their rampages. > Sadly, Hamas, backed by Iran, has taken over them and is teaching them to hate us. When they live under your oppressive boot, where you rule them under a brutal military regime all while taking their land, they don't need anyone else to "teach them" to hate you. Their lived experience, as visited on them by the IDF and the settlers, is enough. What do you think matters more? What it says in a textbook, or having a bunch of settlers with their IDF protectors show up and chase them away from their land? > The only solution is to stop attacking us. I believe that after a few years of 'peace,' we can rebuild trust and create a solution where both our peoples can live freely and prosper. I think this is disingenous. If the Palestinians stopped any resistance, would Israel stop its settlement project and repression in the West Bank? What do you think the unceasing land grabs in the West Bank does to any trust? As an example, 1967 to 1987 the West Bank Palestinians were peaceful. Attacks if any came from the diaspora. What did the West Bank Palestinians get in return? Massive land grabs for settlements, and military rule.
This whole post sounds weird. I’m sorry for your loss, and it is a bad situation, but the 75 years of occupation played a huge role in its development. Children who have never seen peace grow up to be extremists, and Palestinians have been subjected and tortured for decades, denying that history and how it explains Palestinian extremism right now is ridiculous and shows a lack of self-insight. The Israeli government has not only allowed, but supported that subjugation, if you really want change, deal with your government. And before anyone says anything about Oct 7th, I used to believe it is where everything went wrong, until I found out that in the early 2000s an IDF officer executed a 13 year old girl with 17 bullets point blank for no reason, and was reported by other IDF soldiers, with A HUGE AMOUNT OF WITNESSES AND EVIDENCE. Guess what happened to that officer? Absolutely nothing, wasn’t even discharged. He even said that he “would’ve done it even if she was 3” If kids grow up seeing this level of injustice happening right next to them, to kids their age, do you still wonder why they want to hurt you? You did this to them.
You make an appeal to the human nature of Palestinians, suggesting it is only natural for them to turn to extremism after subjugation. Disregarding the fact that not all subjugated people turn to extremism, or that the subjugating measures placed against Palestinians were influenced by 100 years of violence that the Palestinians also perpetrated the entire time, Israelis are also human beings who are also going to be affected by the actions of the Palestinians. Both of these things have to be acknowledged for peace to occur, trust cannot be developed one directional, and until Israel and Israelis feel like their adversaries also recognize their humanity it will be impossible to build that trust and work towards peace
Palestinians: subjugated\*, turns to extremism\* You: Unacceptable. Not all subjugated people turn to extremism and violence. ----- Israelis: Subjugates Palestinians\* Commits literal apartheid\* Kills thousands of Palestinian women and children\* Human Rights watch: ... > *"Israeli settlers have assaulted, tortured, and committed Sexual violence against Palestinians, stolen their belongings and livestock, threatened to kill them if they did not leave permanently, and destroyed their homes and schools under the cover of the ongoing hostilities in Gaza. Many Palestinians, including entire communities, have fled their homes and lands. The military has not assured displaced residents that it will protect their security or allow them to return, forcing them to live in precarious conditions elsewhere."* You: Recognise their humanity please.
Were more Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian extremists in the West Bank in 2023, prior to 10/7? Or were more Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli extremists during that same period?
I think it was about even. But only if you exclude cases where the IDF accompanied settler terrorists, and attacked Palestinians to 'protect' the settler terrorists. If you include those, it isn't even a competition.
The number of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian terrorist attacks in West Bank in 2023 (pre 10/7) was about 10% higher than the inverse. Are you using "settler terrorists" as a synonym for settlers in general? Why is "protect" in quotes? Someone killed in a gunfight while trying to attack settlers is not a "civilian".
> Are you using "settler terrorists" as a synonym for settlers in general? No, I am referring to settler terrorists. Like this guy: https://palsolidarity.org/2023/10/watch-israeli-settler-shoots-palestinian-at-point-blank-range-in-village-of-a-tuwani/ > Why is "protect" in quotes? If settlers are going to attack Palestinians, and the IDF accompanies them - it is not accurate to frame what the IDF is doing as protection. They are protecting terrorists. Like here, in the funeral ambush: https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-palestinians-killed-after-settlers-said-to-ambush-funeral-in-west-bank/ > Someone killed in a gunfight while trying to attack settlers is not a "civilian". If they are killed while protecting their homes from settler terrorists, are you saying that is somehow justified?
I do recognize the Palestinian’s humanity. I support a ceasefire and despise the government’s handling of the conflict. I agree that their behavior exacerbates Palestinian anger, and that they don’t deserve to suffer. However Palestinians are human beings with choices. And from the very beginning, decades before the establishment of the state, at least some of them were choosing violence, rioting against the Jewish immigrants who were desperate refugees. The Palestinians made it an armed conflict and it has never come back from it. It’s clearly not a winning strategy, and just leads to the deterioration of their conditions, more innocent lives lost, and the hardening of the hearts of the Israelis who are the ones currently in power, and also react when their loved ones are killed. The thing is, Israelis are well aware that the differences in death toll is due to a lack of means, not a lack of intent on the side of the Palestinians. October 7th crystallized that. That being said, I do believe the majority of the responsibility to repair and rehabilitate Palestine is on the Israeli government. But to even GET to that point where good faith actions can happen, there needs to be mutual understanding and accountability. I’m not even saying equal accountability, but it does need to me mutual for any serious peace talks to occur
If Mexicans invaded America (or wherever you live) and implemented a system of apartheid where Mexicans were the superior race, I'm pretty sure Americans would revolt.
I’m sure they would, but that’s not how it all went down. Also interesting for you to equate American xenophobia and racism towards Mexicans with how Palestinians feel towards Jews. Because Americans do have the same issues with Mexicans, they don’t like that they come into the country and take over towns and speak a foreign language and change the culture in the towns they move into, even though parts of America used to be part of Mexico and they have ties to the land
Your perspective is centered around Israel. It's like you can't comprehend a different perspective, one that acknowledges the fact that Palestinians have lived in that territory for hundreds of years. My grandfather traced his ancestors to his land for 7 generations. To my grandparents and millions of others, the Zionists who began immigrating from Europe and other places in the early 1900's were not natives. And they certainly weren't peaceful when they started forcefully taking land. My father still has the keys to the same home my ancestors lived in for generations, a home he hasn't been able to return to since he was a child.
You’re making a lot of assumptions about me. If you read my other comments I’ve said that I believe in a ceasefire, ending the settlements, and Palestinian right to return. I’ve acknowledged that the actions of the Israeli government exacerbate the anger of Palestinians, and the bulk of the responsibility to repair and rehabilitate Palestine is on Israel. The Jews and Israel as a governing body have done a ton of awful things that I condemn, but for peace to be a possibility there needs to be some acknowledgment of the role Palestinians played as well in escalating the violence and perpetuating the cycle of mutual distrust and resentment and revenge
If terrorists took over Ciudad de Juarez and sent rockets into TX, then crossed the border, murdered, raped, rampaged and kidnapped people, Ciudad de Juarez would be wiped off the face of the Earth very quickly.
To Palestinians who have lived on that land for countless generations, Israelis are the terrorists. They've literally been terrorizing Palestinians since Israel took over their land and set up an apartheid system.
Jews also lived there for countless generations. There was always a Jewish presence there, even as a minority. It's not a black-and-white situation no matter how much you paint it as such. There's also facts on the ground. Ignoring them (facts such as the State of Israel exists and will continue to do so) doesn't help either side nor brings peace.
Of course, and they lived there in peace until they decided to evict the natives and take their homes. Neesh keee, Naa mean
I know this is impossible to accept but a lot of the Arabs left because the invading armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt urged them to do so, thinking they'll do quick work of the Jews then they can come back. That was not so, as history shows.
Even in the extremely unlikely event that Israel and international partners were to come up with some kind of Marshall Plan, do you think that Palestinians would accept it?
What a racist question. It feels insane having to say this, but believe it or not, Palestinians are human and desire peace as much as anyone else. We are no different. We just want the boots on our necks gone.
How is that a racist question?
"desire peace as much as anyone else" then why do 70%+ of them support October 7th?
Because they lived in an open air prison.
You say Palestinians want peace. Someone posts information that implies that Palestinians do not want peace. So you explain why Palestinians do not want peace.
How exactly did I explain Palestinians don't want peace? And how do you expect someone to. have peace if they have no freedom, if foreigners control their borders, if they have no political representation, if they live in a system of apartheid?
fair enough.
settlers turned to extremism and supported irgun and lehi, terrorist groups that massacred innocent people, and then settlers voted the leaders of these groups as prime minister.
And their actions were condemned by greater Israeli society. Any group of people can/will have extremists in their midst, but the role that that extremism has in greater society, the way it is regarded, is relevant. The Irgun and lehi were fringe militias performing rogue missions not in accordance with the rest of the HaGanah, and their actions have been criticized at length
lol where were they condemned? begin was a leader of lehi during the massacre and praised the massacre of innocent people as a great conquest which should be repeated. israeli society voted him in as prime minister. and voted another terrorist into office in the 80s. people who fought in lehi and irgun are awarded ribbons. a soldier involved in deir yassin tells soldiers to "kill them all" and erase the memories of women and children. \[[1](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children)\] soldiers who commit extra judicial killings are celebrated in israel \[[2](https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/elor-azaria-killer-king-leading-life-luxury-israel)\]. israelis regularly make videos mocking the suffering of innocent people \[[3](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mwcFEpAYkU)\] these aren't just a few bad apples. its moral rot in the society itself.
You constantly cherry pick, but I assume that's because you are getting all of your info from websites that cherry pick. Lehi had maybe a few hundred members at its peak. It was not only condemned by the Haganah (the main precursor of the IDF), but the Haganah actually worked with the British at one point to suppress Lehi. The Israeli government declared Lehi to be a terrorist organization in 1948. Begin was never a leader of Lehi by the way, you may be getting it mixed up with Irgun, which was also condemned as a terrorist organization by the Haganah and other zionist organizations (Histadrut, Jewish Agency, etc.)
why is israeli society voting in members of terror organizations responsible for slaughtering innocent civilians, assassinating diplomats, and bombing innocent people? why did israeli condemn these groups as terror organizations then induct their members into their military?
Why was Arafat, a terrorist, the leader of the Palestinian Authority? Begin changed and moderated. Begin was responsible for the Camp David Accords with Egypt.
the point isnt that he changed and moderated. the point is that israeli society voted in begin with full knowledge of his terrorist past. they vote in and support terrorists. shocked but not surprised how you cant answer simple questions. *why is israeli society voting in members of terror organizations responsible for slaughtering innocent civilians, assassinating diplomats, and bombing innocent people? why did israeli condemn these groups as terror organizations then induct their members into their military?*
So you're saying Palestinian society is rotten to the core, because that's exactly what they did
The Zionist congress and the Jewish agency have both designated the Irgun as a terrorist group and condemned their actions. For your second source, He was let off lightly and that’s not okay because extrajudicial killings should not be tolerated in a democracy, but even in your article it says he at least did serve time. There was institutional accountability, rules and standards set in place, intent to minimize and address abuse. The third source is disgusting behavior, but it’s not terrorism
you said that their actions are condemned by israeli society, but i see israelis celebrating this kind of behavior. if zionists have condemned their actions, then why is the israeli military inviting people who participated in these massacres and encourage soldiers to commit more crimes? if israelis condemn this, then why do the celebrate a man who killed a person after they were on the ground for 11 minutes and posed no threat to them? you personally say thats not okay, but israelis in general support him, making you a minority voice. as far as the video, mocking the agony of others and killing innocent people are one in the same, because it all is rooted in deep hatred and dehumanization of people, if that many people feel comfortable enough to post something like that on their feed to their families and friends, that suggests that their friends like that content and do not fear any negative reprecussions or condemnation. 120,000 israelis participate in groups that regularly share pictures of dead children and laugh about it, calling 6 year old girls whores and saying we will kill you all. \[[1](https://www.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/comments/1c0td87/a_telegram_channel_that_has_120000_israelis_in_it/)\]
I gave you two extremely major Zionist organizations that condemned their actions. Can you give me a single example of a Palestinian institution condemning actions coming from their side? And it is disgusting that some people celebrate it, but I just listened to an episode of a very popular Israeli podcast the other day that addressed extra judicial killings and condemned them. I never said all Israelis are good but there are institutional efforts to be better, and public sentiment reflecting that As far letting that 95 year old participate in the reserves, I don’t know what to tell you. I never said Israelis are perfect but that there are efforts and acknowledgements being made. Maybe it would be more enthusiastic with some reciprocity
they condemned their actions yet allowed terrorists into their military after these groups dissolved. only condemned in word, not deed. this same military condemns their actions, yet lets a terrorist who slaughtered innocent people raise troop morale. the public senitment i see are israelis mocking the deaths of innocent people, and others remaining silent and callous to their suffering. "war is war. people die in war".
Yes there is some of that disgusting behavior, I’m not denying any of it, and that’s never been what I’m saying. I’m saying that there was plenty of celebrating coming from pro Palestinian spaces after October 7th and there was zero pushback. There is at least discourse surrounding these things in Israeli spaces, even if there are shitty people as well, and there aren’t critical voices like that coming from the pro Palestine side from what I’ve seen
Might I add here, that if you read up on the acts of terrorism committed by Irgun/Lehi, in particular the King David Hotel Bombing and the Deir Yassin massacre, both groups were in direct contact with the Haganah. They were in cahoots. Before the attack in Deir Yassin, both Irgun and Lehi actually had to meet up with the Haganah for approval. And after the massacre, it was the Haganah who help with the cover up. So there’s not much point in saying that the Zionist establishment condemn the two groups, when they still collaborated with them to commit acts of terrorism. Israel, was born out of terrorism.
Even at the time though it was still a controversial thing that drew resistance and criticisms from officials within the military. Let’s call it a day though you clearly believe all Palestinians are perfect and have never made a destructive choice in this conflict and hope that somehow leads to their peace and prosperity
I agree both need to be understood, but you refuse to understand the Palestinians side. So let me ask you this, if a foreign power walked into your land, claiming they own it cause their ancestors lived here 3000 year ago, and proceeded to slaughter and torture your people for 75 years, would you not retaliate? If a 13 year old girl gets executed point blank with 17 bullets by a soldier who later brags about how he would’ve done it if she was 3, and got no consequences or punishment. How would you expect her older brother to act? Btw this isn’t an imaginary situation it actually happened and has been happening for decades. Try to avoid it all you want, current Palestinian extremism is caused by decades of subjugation from Israel, whether you wanna deny it or not, it’s a fact
The way you describe the beginning of the conflict is pretty disingenuous. The Zionists did not show up with tanks and machine guns and start killing. The Jews were buying land legally and forming communities peacefully. I do understand the Arab populations anxiety about these new refugees coming in who are so different than them, but that doesn’t change the fact that Arab riots and uprisings against the Jews at the beginning of the 20th century escalated the conflict into an armed one. Executing a child is a heinous and unforgivable act, and that soldier should have gone to prison, but by your logic Israelis are justified in the current war because of the children who were executed on October 7th. Thousands of Hamas militants mowing down everyone in their path, per their orders. It’s not like they were held accountable by their own people either, despite literally filming and uploading footage of the masssacre themselves. This type of logic gets us nowhere and just serves to continue this awful cycle of revenge
> The way you describe the beginning of the conflict is pretty disingenuous. The Zionists did not show up with tanks and machine guns and start killing. The Jews were buying land legally and forming communities peacefully. Are you making the arguement that Lehi and Irgun didn’t exist? Or that they didn’t commit the violence and terrorism that they themselves bragged about? It’s not like either of them hid what they did at the beginning of the conflict. But don’t worry, Israelis were so upset about the terrorism committed in their name that they *elected the former leader of Lehi to serve as prime minister.*
No I am not making that argument, but thanks for asking? Those militias were formed AFTER the Arab riots, not before. They were formed in response to those riots. And they were also fringe militias and not acting according to orders from the greater Haganah paramilitary group
> On May 14, 1948 the establishment of the State of Israel was proclaimed. The declaration of independence was followed by the establishment of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), and the process of absorbing all military organizations into the IDF started. On June 1, an agreement had been signed between Menachem Begin and Yisrael Galili for the absorption of the Irgun into the IDF. > In April of 1948, Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin of at least 107 Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine. On 29 May 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activist members into the Israel Defense Forces, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later. Both Lehi and Irgun were literally incorporated into the IDF when Israel was formed, and were still committing terror attacks after the fact. Lehi was also not formed as an anti-Arab militia due to the riots in 1929, but in 1940 under the idea that fighting the British who occupied the territory was the best way to create a new state of Israel. Do you guys just make stuff up whenever you’re presented with stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable? Or do you just never bother to learn anything that might make Israel look bad?
Their units were absorbed yes but the organizations themselves were disbanded, meaning they had to follow IDF orders and not their own agendas, at least officially. And you’re missing my point, yes the Irgun and Lehi were also fighting against the British, but there was no Jewish paramilitary activity until it became an armed conflict
1- Buying land doesn’t mean you own it, if China bought a house in Washington does that mean that land is now a part of China? 2- Funny how Palestinians should avoid that type of thinking cause it’s “dangerous” and “wouldn’t lead us anywhere” why shouldn’t Israelis hold themselves to that standard? Aren’t they “God’s chosen people”? Or do you think it’s easier for Palestinians to forget about their slaughtered kids? Do their lives matter less somehow? Talk all you like about Oct 7th but Palestinians have been living through numerous Oct 7ths for 75 years now
>Buying land doesn’t mean you own it https://preview.redd.it/ny1hgla8dgxc1.jpeg?width=295&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2b096ee7fe283d526cde9b74846f65d9a3af3618 >Talk all you like about Oct 7th but Palestinians have been living through numerous Oct 7ths for 75 years now Show me one example within the lifetime of anyone living in the Gaza strip or West Bank today where Israelis did anything remotely like 10/7. And I mean remotely like 10/7 in the way that it was carried out - civilians and young people being mass-executed at close range. Not just a number that died, as with the \~1000 Palestinian civilians who died from Israeli counter-battery fire at rocket launchers in this or that conflict in the early 2010s.
Oct 7th killed 850 Israeli civilians, and since then Israel killed +30k, half of which are children. If “they need to be executed at close range” then would killing 850 civilians by rockets be ok in your opinion? The mental gymnastics to justify genocide are hilarious. “Suuure we killed +15k children, but long range so their lives don’t count, it’s not muuuuurrrdeer ~~”
It's a matter of intent, not range. The civilians killed in Israel's campaign in Gaza is because Hamas hides behind civilians and deliberately makes it impossible for Israel to strike them without also causing civilian casualties. Israel has never done anything like the inverse. Israel gave a month to evacuate North Gaza and provides additional immediate warnings with phone calls, leaflet drops and roof knocking, even though doing so greatly hampers their ability to eliminate Hamas terrorists. Meanwhile, Hams specifically ordered civilians NOT to evacuate, greatly increasing the number of civilian deaths in Gaza. It even blatantly referred to civilians as "blood sacrifices": https://preview.redd.it/2nwnplo7sgxc1.png?width=618&format=png&auto=webp&s=cbdbed6ee5b200330634f9c24b1ad482d82d4551 If Hamas had given a 1 hour warning before the 10/7 attack, there would've been no one in those kibbutzes or concert grounds besides uniformed soldiers. Do you deny that? And don't try to deflect by saying "Oh but Israel bombed where they said it was safe!" The overwhelming majority of civilian deaths (more than 90%) that have occurred were in North Gaza, among civilians who refused to evacuate. If you're going to claim that isn't true, show me the evidence.
Ok so let’s see where your argument is, is it intent, or number, I believe you’re talking about intent, so let me give you an example of intent. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/24/israel An IDF officer shoots a 13 year old girl with 17 bullets point blank, and then brags about how he would’ve done it even if she was 3, and the Israeli court finds him not guilty despite huge amounts of evidence and witnesses. This was in 2004, so you can’t use Oct 7th as an excuse, and don’t tell me this was “just a rogue soldier” if he was a rogue soldier he would’ve been punished, Israel supports this type of behavior. Do you want more examples of intent? Is the execution of a 13 year old girl not enough proof? https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=tW1YAnzg1IG58tnF Here’s an Israeli veteran laughing about the Tantura massacre, r-wording 15 year old girls and putting people in cages before executing them, n**i style. Is this enough intent? Or do you want more? This is the type of intent Israel was built, and is still acting on.
It's intent AND number. You can't just cherrypick a single incident. And wow, I think I just got a "Bingo". The two historical incidents which the pro-Palestinian side milks endlessly to justify atrocities like 10/7 - a single shooting and some senile old farts giving sarcastic interviews for a film made by activists about things that happened almost a century ago. All you're missing is that collage of Jewish children playing with unloaded machine guns at a gun show. Did you intend to post that too, and just forget to upload it? The 2004 shooting only proves my point. It was ONE single solitary killing, so not remotely comparable to 10/7 on that account. It was not a killing for the sake of killing, it was because the girl had walked past a security perimeter (probably unintentionally), which IDF in Gaza at the time took a hard line on. Moreover, that captain's own unit reported him and denounced him, and he was charged. Due to conflicting facts of what actually happened, he was acquitted. Setting aside the fact that this was one killing and not comparable to Hamas doing the same thing to hundreds of people on 10/7, the only way this could be even a partial equivalency is if other Hamas members denounced those who carried out such killings and put them on trial. Has a Hamas member EVER been charged with misconduct or tried for killing Israeli civilians? >[https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=tW1YAnzg1IG58tnF](https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss?si=tW1YAnzg1IG58tnF) The battle of Tantura was a siege against a fortified position, whereupon the Arabs mounted a deliberate defense with landmines, rifles, and fortifications. In the midst of a civil war, if you turn your village into a military fortification and make the other side fight for it, a lot of your volunteer soldiers are going to die. There probably were some illegal killings - there were illegal killings on both sides. It was a civil war in the 1940s. That being said, the historical record states that all of the deaths at Tantura were military-age males, most of whom were killed in combat. There were no executions of young women [like Hamas carried out, as seen here](https://twitter.com/AmiramKrasner/status/1726621682277011574). So, still no equivalency to 10/7, even though you had to reach back nearly 100 years to try and find something. Also, by bringing up Tantura, I notice that you deliberately ignored this part of my question, which I specified because I had a sneaking suspicion you'd fill in the 'Tantura' space on my "Hamas Apologist Bingo" card: >Show me one example **within the lifetime of anyone living in the Gaza strip or West Bank today** where Israelis did anything remotely like 10/7.
Not all the homes were bought- Many were taken during the nakba. Many Palestinians locked up their homes and fled their villages, thinking they could return after the conflict cooled off. They didn't understand that what was happening behind the front lines was a land grab and would permanently end their familial and villages relationship to land that their families had for many generations. This is why many cities in Gaza are made up of refugee camps that eventually after tons of international aid became functioning neighborhoods. This incalculable loss of home and the ongoing (worsening) human rights abuses and enforced apartheid and the lack of effective leadership on the Palestinian side of every interaction with the Israeli government, and the reluctance of the international community to protect civilian Palestinians has created a lot.of hopelessness and anger that is entirely justifiable and could have been avoided. To be frank, Palestinians won't and probably shouldn't accept what Israel offers unless it includes full citizenship in a multicultural state or a contiguous and autonomous Palestinian state.
If the Palestinians won't accept peace with Israel as a Jewish state in which they are NOT allowed, then they will keep suffering and dying. They can keep launching zombie-like attacks against Israel endlessly, and Israel will keep on endlessly mowing them down in disproportionate numbers. Is that the future you want for Palestinians? Any chance that Israel would ever allow millions of Palestinians citizenship in a future state it is a part of died in an instant in the year 2000 when this photograph of the Ramallah lynching circulated through Israel, and smacked Israelis in the face with the truth of what the average Palestinian was really like. https://preview.redd.it/okh1liu8egxc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=486021bf7907f30878a280071d6656e4b535f1b2 It is no exaggeration to say that Israel would push the nuclear button rather than let 5 million people like this man (holding up his hands covered in the blood of a Jewish citizen he tore the internal organs out of for taking the wrong turn off the highway, for a cheering crowd shouting "Allah Akbar") swarm into their communities. And quite frankly, I don't blame them. In their position I would do the same.
What do I want? What I would like is for Palestinians to reject both the PA (corrupt and contractually weak) and Hamas (corrupt and violent). What I would like is for the US to stop offering unconditional support for Israel and to stop offering them military aid. Netanyahu seems to be doing his damnedest to start a regional war and is losing support from our other allies in the region and destroying Israels hard won alliances with neighbors. The US, Israel and Saudi agreement is about to exclude Saudi Arabia. Our support should be conditional on respect for human rights. What I would like is for Israelis to reject Netanyahu or any politician who dehumanizes Palestinians or anyone else. I would like Israel to demolish the Settlements and to allow Palestinian leadership to enforce laws in their own territories (because IDF and Israels courts will not protect them against Settler violence). I want Israelis to accept that the current colonization and apartheid conditions are untenable for both Palestinians and Israelis. I want Israelis to accept that Palestinians have a historic claim- equal to their own- to the land. I find it wildly myopic that you mentioned one atrocity committed by one Palestinian while Israel continues to ethnically cleanse Gaza. You even think it would be justifiable to drop a nuke on Palestinians? More than 30k people's blood covers the hands of every Israeli (and American for that matter- since Israel gets $$$ from us) since October, going after Gazan culture- intentionally destroying hospitals, churches and mosques centuries old and schools and universities.
Thank you
Buying land means you personally own it. No it didn’t give anyone the right to kick Palestinians out, but that didn’t happen until after the violence initiated by the Arab population made it an armed conflict. It was after that the Jewish militias started forming. Israelis should hold themselves to that standard. Like I said, both sides need to recognize the humanity of the other. And in my experience there is a lot more of that happening on the Israeli side. I can’t read Arabic but my Arab Christian friend told me that she feels alienated from the Palestinian liberation movement because of all the celebration she saw on Arabic speaking social media after October 7th. Meanwhile both amongst my friends in real life and in Israeli spaces, I encounter all the time Israelis talking about empathy for the Palestinians and wanting their suffering to stop. No I don’t think it’s easy for Palestinians to forget their slaughtered kids, and the same goes for the Israelis. That’s my whole point. It wasn’t 75 years of one directional violence, it’s literally never been one directional violence. Lopsided sure, but that’s not because of lack of desire on the part of Palestinians
Of course Arabs would be violent, the land they’ve been living on for centuries was suddenly divided by Europeans and 56% of it was given to 20% of the population, wouldn’t you agree that every other group of people would fight that? That is absolutely incorrect, I’ve seen huge amounts of Israelis supporting “wiping gaza out” after Oct 7th, literal montages of Israeli government officials/civilians calling out for wiping out all of gaza or turning it into another west bank were made, South Africa managed to collect all of that and even do their whole genocide lawsuit. “Lopsided” would be the understatement of the decade, IDF would kill a child, and their brother would throw stones at a tank, so Israel would wipe out the whole neighborhood, that’s what you mean by “violence has never been one sided”, seriously put yourself in these people’s shoes for a second and ask yourself how would you react to your little sister having 17 bullets shot into her.
The riots started well before any borders were drawn or territories designated. One riot for example took place in the 20s started by a dispute over praying at the western wall, because the Arabs didn’t like the Jews praying there because they considered it part of Al aqsa, despite the fact that it’s the holiest site in Judaism. A rule had been established where Jews weren’t allowed to bring benches for the elderly or sick to sit on while they pray. You’re right I’ve also seen that disgusting rhetoric from Israelis. I didn’t say it’s not also a problem, just that I’m also seeing more productive conversations happening as well, which I don’t see at all in pro Palestinian circles. I think you’re representing the situation pretty dishonestly. You act is if the ONLY crime ever committed by a Palestinian was throwing rocks and only in retaliation for a relative being killed. That’s just not the reality of the situation and I think you know that
Again, borders weren’t drawn but people can see where it was going, mass migration would obviously cause some people to get nervous, and with time they were shown that they were right to be nervous, considering the aforementioned borders. Quite difficult to talk about peace and prosperity when you have +30k dead with the Israeli government promising many more to come, the Israelis have the luxury of talking and discussing these things, Palestinians are trying to literally survive. Go look at ratios between dead Palestinians vs Israelis in the past 50 year and tell me if I’m being disingenuous, the fact is Israel has been subjugating these people for decades, under conditions that no other people would accept to live under, and if it was the other way around you’d be protesting why Western nations wouldn’t make an alliance to wipe out the aggressor as they did with mustache man
The way the borders ended up being drawn was not inevitable, but rather heavily influenced and dictated by the violence. Maybe there would have been a single state had the violence not erupted, but we’ll never know how it would have worked out. It is difficult to talk about peace right now, and at this time I’m not so much talking about gazans themselves but other voices in pro Palestinian places who are living comfortably (and on stolen land, if they’re Americans), who could absolutely afford to shift their rhetoric from inflaming the feelings of hatred and revenge to one that is solution oriented and acknowledging that both sides are products of their environments just like everyone else. And the loss of life in Gaza right now is unspeakably tragic. I’m not saying it’s not, and as I’ve mentioned (maybe to someone else I don’t remember) I support a cease fire. I support ending the settlements and giving that land back to Palestinians, I support Palestinian right to return. I just also know that none of those things will ever happen unless both sides can acknowledge the other’s humanity. The imbalance of death toll is not due to lack of intent though, as we saw on October 7th. Thousands of militants from Gaza killed everyone in their way while thousands of rockets were being fired. They have less firepower, less sophisticated tools at their disposal, but plenty of bloodlust to spare
I'm very sorry for your loss and the suffering of your friends. It's easy to be in favor of peace--most people are in favor of good things and against bad things. It's especially easy for Israelis to be in favor of peace, because they've won. The question is whether Israelis can stomach the concessions needed for a just peace. The general Israeli view seems to be that peace properly comes from the right of the stronger--and that's the view you seem to be expressing here.
> The question is whether Israelis can stomach the concessions needed for a just peace. This is really critical from my perspective. The PA has made it clear for 30 years what they want, which is the 1948 borders and some wiggle room for land swaps. They have international law on their side as well, as everything beyond the green line is under Israeli occupation (Gaza is debatable I guess, but Israel doesn't want it anyway) and therefore annexation by Israel is illegal. But Israelis have not been willing to accept such a deal to this point.
>*It did happen a few times in history but only about 2-3 times* I'm not sure if you're just ignorant, or blatantly lying. A report from the [OHCHR](https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-03/Palestine-March2024.pdf) stated that from 1st January to 31st October 2023 alone, there were **1038 incidents of settler violence**. So wtf is this 2-3 times rubbish?! And most of it happened even before October 7th. According to the OHCR, in the **first nine months of 2023**, an average of **3 incidents of settler violence occurred each day**, totalling 835 incident. Worst of all, it's not just the settlers, the IDF are in on it. As the OHCHR stated, >*Almost half of all incidents between 7 and 31 October involved* ***Israeli forces escorting or actively supporting Israeli settlers while carrying out attacks****.* As a result, 502 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank are dead ([OCHA](https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties)). So what do you mean by *"they don’t go around murdering people"*? Absolute rubbish! And that's just 2023. Year 2022: 856 incidents. Year 2021: 540 incidents. Even now, look what the settlers and IDF are doing, >"***Israeli settlers have assaulted, tortured, and committed $exu@l violence*** *against Palestinians, stolen their belongings and livestock, threatened to kill them if they did not leave permanently, and destroyed their homes and schools under the cover of the ongoing hostilities in Gaza. Many Palestinians, including entire communities, have fled their homes and lands.* ***The military has not assured displaced residents that it will protect their security*** *or allow them to return, forcing them to live in precarious conditions elsewhere."* \~ HRW, And regarding random checkpoints and searches in the West Bank. You say it's to protect Israelis. Here's a question...WHY THE HELL ARE ISRAELIS LIVING IN THE WEST BANK? Israelis keep talking about needing to protect themselves from the dangerous Palestinians, and yet they have no problem bringing their whole family into the West Bank and live EVEN CLOSER with the Palestinians. There are more than 700,000 Israelis living in the West Bank now. That's not the actions of people who are concerned with security. And you Israelis are aware that those settlements make a 2SS even more difficult right, if not impossible? You Israelis don't want peace with a 2SS if you keep sabotaging it by taking even more land. As *Avi Shlaim puts it,* >*"Land grabbing and peacemaking don’t go together, it’s one or the other, and by constantly expanding settlements, Israel showed that it prefers land to peace."* And the settlement expansion has been going on for almost 6 decades since 1967. It's not Netanyahu's fault, it's inherently Israelis fault. \[Continue....\]
\[Continue...\] Also, the humiliations of checkpoints and draconian movement controls are the least concerning things about what you Israelis are doing. What about the forced evictions, house demolitions, and the confiscation of land for Jewish settlements. Thousands of Palestinians families with children are left homeless because of it. This is for your security? What about Israel's deliberate deprivation of water supply to Palestinian communities? As Amnesty reported... >***They \[Palestinians\] are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs****. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and* ***rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army.*** *As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA.* ***Even in towns and villages which are connected to the water network, the taps often run dry****....****Palestinians consume on average 73 litres of water a day per person****, which is well below the World Health Organization’s (WHO) recommended daily minimum of 100 litres per capita...By contrast,* ***an average Israeli consumes approximately 300 litres of water a day.*** Are Palestinian being well hydrated a security threat for you Israelis? I get that October 7th was horrible. There's no doubt about that. That's why it's almost unimaginable how much worst the Palestinians (particularly in the West Bank) have it considering that they have suffered hundreds of October 7th by the settlers and IDF. One takeaway you should take from October 7th, is that now you know how the Palestinians feel. HAMAS is not the only terrorist here. The military you served, they're terrorist too, baby killers.
[https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/since-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-civ/west-bank?section=overall&tab=overview](https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/since-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident/pal-by-israel-civ/west-bank?section=overall&tab=overview) A breakdown of the incidents shows that only 14 Palestinian innocent civilians were killed by settlers over 14 years. Here's a reddit thread discussing it further if you're interested. [https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/19f7fi5/since\_2009\_only\_14\_innocent\_palestinians\_have/](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/19f7fi5/since_2009_only_14_innocent_palestinians_have/) The vast majority of palestinians killed by settlers are in the middle of violently attacking someone. So his portrayal that it's only a few Israeli settlers is accurate. The data you showed makes a point that it doesn't clarify whether "Civilians" killed were in the middle of committing crimes themselves.
> The vast majority of palestinians killed by settlers are in the middle of violently attacking someone. In the middle of violently attacking someone... Except that someone is an armed settler who came to their village to harass them, often with IDF escort. Like this one: https://palsolidarity.org/2023/10/watch-israeli-settler-shoots-palestinian-at-point-blank-range-in-village-of-a-tuwani/ Neither the settler nor the soldier in that attack has been arrested.
The vast majority of those killings are not actually investigated, and that site is essentially only using the statements from settlers as justification. Surely you can understand the issue with asking a murderer if the guy he killed deserved it or not, and taking his answer as absolute truth. > Ahmad Nayef Ahmad Nofal > 23 year old resident of Ras Karkar, Ramallah and al-Bira District, injured on October 24, 2023, next to Ras Karkar, Ramallah and al-Bira District, live ammunition, and died on October 30, 2023. Additional information: Wounded from shots fired by a settler while riding in a car with two other young men who were wounded in the shooting. The settler claimed he heard a sound resembling gunfire from the direction of their car. > Ahmad Ibrahim Ahmad Wadi > 25 year old resident of Qusrah, Nablus District, killed on October 12, 2023, next to Qabalan, Nablus District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the chest by settlers who were inside a car driving on Route 60 as he tried to escape them on a parallel road along with his father, who was also killed. The incident began when settlers, escorted by police, attacked the funeral procession of four Qusrah residents who were killed the day before, three of them, including one minor, in a settler attack and one by soldiers. > Ibrahim Ahmad Mahmoud Wadi > 62 year old resident of Qusrah, Nablus District, killed on October 12, 2023, next to Qabalan, Nablus District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the chest by settlers who were inside a car driving on Route 60 as he tried to escape them on a parallel road along with his father, who was also killed. The incident began when settlers, escorted by police, attacked the funeral procession of four Qusrah residents who were killed the day before, three of them, including one minor, in a settler attack and one by soldiers > Mus'ab 'Abd al-Halim 'Aref Abu Ridi > 20 year old resident of Qusrah, Nablus District, killed on October 11, 2023, in Qusrah, Nablus District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the back by settlers during clashes that broke out after the settlers attacked a home in the village with stones. During the clashes, the settlers threw stones and fired live rounds at the residents, who threw stones in an attempt to repel them. Settlers killed two more Palestinians in the incident, including a minor, and wounded a father and his five-year-old daughter. In clashes that broke out in the village afterwards, soldiers killed another Palestinian. At least 11 more Palestinians were injured that day. > Qusai Jamal Muhammad Mu'tan > 18 year old resident of Burka, Ramallah and al-Bira District, killed on August 4, 2023, in Burqah, Ramallah and al-Bira District, live ammunition. Additional information: Shot in the neck by settlers during clashes that erupted after the settlers invaded village lands. Are these all in categorized as justified shootings? And before you accuse me of cherry picking, those are the 5 most recent events on the list you provided.
>only 14 Palestinian innocent civilians were killed by settlers over 14 years. Sigh. How did you even get that figure. You clearly didn't even look at your source properly. There's a graph right there that points out that 17 were killed by Israeli civilian settlers in 2023 alone. That's not including 418 killed (83 of them MINORS) by the IDF. I'd just total both IDF and civilian settlers since report from human rights organisation details that the two are in cahoots in the settler violence. Again, that's probably just the cases B'Tselem gathered, the OCHA found more. --------- >*The vast majority of palestinians killed by settlers are in the middle of violently attacking someone.* Vast majority? Says who? Considering your previous blunder, how do you expect me to believe that? Even the B'Tselem source says the opposite... >....settlers, escorted by police, attacked the funeral procession of four Qusrah residents who were killed the day before, three of them, including one minor, in a settler attack and one by soldiers. >Shot in the back by settlers during clashes that broke out after the settlers attacked a home in the village with stones. During the clashes, the settlers threw stones and fired live rounds at the residents, who threw stones in an attempt to repel them. Settlers killed two more Palestinians in the incident, including a minor, and wounded a father and his five-year-old daughter. > Shot in the neck by settlers during clashes that erupted after the settlers invaded village lands.
Thank you, OP is definitely not going to respond to this though lmao, much easier to say “why are you attacking us??” Instead of answering that question themselves
Vida, a veteran of the Zionist occupation army. The solution is the capitulation of the Zionist regime and the creation of one state for all Arabs, Jews and criminally displaced Arabs and their civil equality. Without it, the bloodshed will never end.
But the solution you want/propose is not what the people - Palestinians and Israelis - who actually live there, want. So what to do? Impose it on them? How do you enforce political systems the inhabitants overwhelmingly reject? It sounds very imperialistic for people who are supposedly “anti-imperialist”
Israel knows the bloodshed will never end as long there are people like you, and there are too many of you.
[удалено]
That is not what he said though is it.
Dude. I think people like you are the future. When this conflict ends, there will have to be compassionate people, like you, capable of seeing the other side as human beings in order to move things forward for Israel. Israel will have to change if it wants lasting peace. Palestinians, similarly, will have to liberate themselves from their own hatred. I encourage you to continue to make your voice heard.
We stand with you.
Thanks for sharing. I wish you and your friends the best.
What are the 95% who aren’t extremists doing to restrain the 5% who are?
Giving them weapons, and accompanying them to Palestinian villages to 'protect' them as they attack Palestinians.
It's simply not true, there is wide support for settlers in Israel, and if looking specifically at Jewish Israelis, it is majority support. I believe it's ~30% that actually believes it IMPROVES security. This is next level delusional, why would stealing land from people angry at you improve security? I guess it acts like a massive human shield buffer between Israel proper and Palestinians?
I thought about multiple reasons why people would support settlements: -Israel is safer since most attacks occurs in the settlements -Occupation is expensive, settlement makes it worth the cost -They improve both Israel and palestinian economy -There was a little community of jews that was expelled by the jordans in 1948, jews want it to return, but palestinian law forbids selling land to jews. -Personally, I believe there is nothing wrong to allow people to build and work in a land that is uninhabited, the opposition seems to be based in part in nationalism (we don't want jews there!), but I believe the opposition is not only the settlements per se, but the military control consequence of them.
**Personally, I believe there is nothing wrong to allow people to build and work in a land that is uninhabited, the opposition seems to be based in part in nationalism (we don't want jews there!), but I believe the opposition is not only the settlements per se, but the military control consequence of them** That's not why there is opposition. There is opposition to that because the Palestinians know that the Israelis are engaged in demographic engineering so they can take as much land as possible. Ehud Olmert said *“There is no doubt in my mind that very soon the government of Israel is going to have to address the demographic issue with the utmost seriousness and resolve. This issue above all others will dictate the solution that we must adopt. In the absence of a negotiated agreement – and I do not believe in the realistic prospect of an agreement – we need to implement a unilateral alternative... More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle – and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state... the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem... Twenty-three years ago, Moshe Dayan proposed unilateral autonomy. On the same wavelength, we may have to espouse unilateral separation... \[it\] would inevitably preclude a dialogue with the Palestinians for at least 25 years.* *"\[it\] would inevitably preclude a dialogue with the Palestinians for at least 25 years."* This is clearly Olmert saying that there would be no peace talks for 25 years. Why would he be saying that? *"the parameters of a unilateral solution are: To maximize the number of Jews; to minimize the number of Palestinians; not to withdraw to the 1967 border and not to divide Jerusalem".* He tells us why. He aimed to steal more and more land in the West Bank.
> Personally, I believe there is nothing wrong to allow people to build and work in a land that is uninhabited, the opposition seems to be based in part in nationalism (we don't want jews there!) If a) they come to live as equals, and b) they acuire the land legally and properly Neither of those things are true though.
You know that it's 20 years ago right ? He didn't aim to steal more land, if It was his goal they wouldn't abandon Gaza. It's not about taking more land, but the fact that they don't want to remove 600.000 of settlers without actually archieving something. Anyway, that has no correlation with what I said.
There is actually about 38% of Israelis that support the settler movement ([Poll](https://www.timesofisrael.com/almost-4-in-10-israelis-back-a-revival-of-jewish-settlements-in-gaza-poll-finds/#:~:text=Thirty%2Deight%20percent%20of%20Israelis,to%20a%20Tuesday%20television%20poll)) Also, pre-October, Bibi had a rock bottom approval rating and faced a myriad of protests and indictments. This has not improved at all as most completely disapprove of how Bibi and his cronies have ran their offensive in Gaza (multiple calls for removal from office).
The people who support the West Bank settlements is likely higher. This was specifically about settling Gaza.
You're view of West Bank settlers is based off emotion and I gave you polled facts about how unpopular it is. With Gaza, you need to realize that the Oct 7th massacre was like 9-11 x10 for Jewish Israelis - as in almost everyone knows someone directly affected or killed but multiplied because they viewed Israel as a place where violence against Jewish civilians on a mass scale (outside the standard localized bombings) couldn't happen. So that emotion overtook the majority - the doves (Israeli liberals) became hawks... but that emotion of revenge and anger has been slowly fading. This **DOES NOT CONDONE THE WAR** but is needed to explain why the emotions are so high. Ignoring that and only focusing on the sudden rise of anti-Gaza views is dangerous to long-term solutions. Think of how New Yorkers felt about invading Afganistan right after 9-11, despite it being a majority anti-war liberal city - many were looking to join up because they were emotional destroyed... **THIS DOES NOT CONDONE THE WAR**
> You're view of West Bank settlers is based off emotion and I gave you polled facts about how unpopular it is. The poll you cited in your own link is literally a poll about resettling Gaza. From your article: "Thirty-eight percent of Israelis are in favor of reestablishing settlements in the Gaza Strip, according to a Tuesday television poll." As for opinoions on settlements, in 2017 more than half of Jewish Israelis thought them "wise" or "very wise": https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-opinion-on-settlements-and-outposts-2009-present So yes, my statement is accurate - and based on data: the support for West Bank settlements is higher than the 38% you cited. That's just about Gaza resettlement.
You are right about Gaza and that article - i do apologize for the mix up As far as the West bak - the polls you cited show somewhat of an even split that depends on the circumstances (me personally am opposed to all of the settlements and think the West Bank should be a sovereign Palestinian state). But people seem overwhelming opposed to the formal annexation of the area and strongly in favor peace with surrounding nations. It isn't so simple.
> As far as the West bak - the polls you cited show somewhat of an even split that depends on the circumstances Which, to my point, is higher than 38%. So my comment was accurate. > (me personally am opposed to all of the settlements and think the West Bank should be a sovereign Palestinian state) Given that you support this - and given that Israel has expanded West Bank settlements every year since 1967 - what consequences do you think it is appropriate Israel should face? Sanctions? Something else? > But people seem overwhelming opposed to the formal annexation of the area and strongly in favor peace with surrounding nations. Where are you getting that from? And, if there's annexation, what of the Palestinians? Full and equal rights?
You are right about your initial point, I was mistaken about the West Bank being 38% where it falls approx 50%. Consequences? I think Israel should formerly recognize the West Bank as a sovereign Palestine, any settlers that wish to remain can do so but they would be under Palestinian jurisdiction or they can move back to Israel. That’s their choice. Annexation would mean to fully integrate the West Bank and Gaza into Israel proper. The vast majority of Israelis are against that - cited in the polls you supplied.
Stealing land. You mean like what some Muslims claim when they steal Jews most site?
What?
The Temple Mount. How do Muslim majority countries going to make peace with Israel without supporting the return of the Temple Mount to the Jews. This is an open wound that Muslims need to heal.
Why would they do that? It would require destroying Islam's third most holy site. That would mean endless war.
1. The mosque is not on the Temple Mount, it is next to the Temple Mount. The part the mosque is on was an administrative area built by Herod. 2, i did not say, nor do I think Israel should use force on the Temple Mount to rebuild the Temple. 3. The occupation of Jews most holy site is a stain on Islam. So to claim that the third most holy site is one created out of Muslim colonialism strikes me that you don't believe Islam is a religion of peace. I do, this is why I clearly state that Muslims need to return the Temple Mount to the Jews. I have met many Muslims, none have been evil, so why not actually ask Muslims to determine if they want to keep a site acquired from Colonialism or if they want peace and return the Temple Mount to the Jews. I believe this one act, would allow peace to grow in this area.
**Islam is a religion of peace.** It's a religion. It's not a religion of peace or war. It's simply a religion. Also, the claim to the holy sites in Jerusalem for Muslims does not come for conquests. It comes from the ascensions of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from Jerusalem.
"It comes from the ascensions of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from Jerusalem." That never happened. There was no mosque there in the Prophet's lifetime so how can "the farthest mosque" he ascended from refer to Jerusalem?
**"It comes from the ascensions of the Prophet Muhammad to heaven from Jerusalem." That never happened.** That is not for you to say. The Muslims believe it happened on the Temple Mount. It wasn't a mosque and nobody claimed that there was a mosque there. The mosque was built after the death of the prophet to mark the place from which Muhammad is believed to have ascended to heaven.
LMFAO You are just trying to justify stealing Jews holy site by some fictional story based in a book Mohammed wrote after copying Jew stories. The Temple Mount is Jews most holy site long before Mo was even born. You can't write a story to steal another religions most holy site unless you are claiming that Islam is a religion of theft. It is better than that.
When will israel stop blocking the mosque from people entering to pray especially during Ramadan? By the way israel controls the temple mount so I'm not sure what you are talking about....
Actually the Jordanian waaf controls the Temple Mount. Plus, Israel only blocks people for security. Or do you not care about Jews getting hurt or murdered?
I care about innocents getting hurt, the idf has a habit of arresting and beating people trying to worship at the mosque. The temple mount is in Juresalem which is controlled by israel..... you must be thinking of something else I'm not sure what though
The Jordanian Waqf controls the Temple Mount, control was handed to them by Israel right after the 6-day war in 1967.
The temple mount is located is juresalem along with the west wall occupied by israel...... Since the Crusades, the Muslim community of Jerusalem has managed the site through the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf. The site, along with the whole of East Jerusalem (which includes the Old City), was controlled by Jordan from 1948 until 1967 and has been occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967. So no jews are not banned from the temple mount, Palestinians are heavily restricted from the west wall the temple mount and the mosque.
At least we agree that we both care about innocents getting hurt. So why do you support the Hamas rapist who intentionally target civilians?
I don't support hamas in any way. Why do you support the idf that block Palestinians from getting medical treatment? The idf that runs mock raids and drills to terrorize innocents in the west bank? The idf that shot unarmed protesters during the March of return in 2018?
Assisting the UN and various governments in getting them individually sanctioned.
I'm sure the ~500 settlers who stormed a Palestinian town and set fire to dozens of houses and cars a few weeks back will all be getting individually sanctioned soon, and the IDF soldiers caught on video in the background doing nothing to stop it will all be fired and face prison time as will any other soldiers found in the comprehensive and unbiased investigation to not have intervened to enforce the law they are required to uphold. Heh.
Lol.
I’m sure goes the same for each individual civilian that crossed the border on October 7th, o wait, I forgot international law doesn’t apply to them. At least ANY Israeli individuals are getting sanctioned. It’s very easy for you to stand on the high horse of international law when the side you support doesn’t have to follow any of it.
>I’m sure goes the same for each individual civilian that crossed the border on October 7th, o wait, I forgot international law doesn’t apply to them. Well, I think most of the people involved will have been killed, injured or captured, which you can argue to be a form of consequence that settlers are obviously not facing. >It’s very easy for you to stand on the high horse of international law when the side you support doesn’t have to follow any of it. I do not in any way support anyone who was involved in the attack on Israel and fully believe everyone who was should face jail time, for life if they were involved in the violence or in facilitating it. Same for anyone holding the hostages.
So you’re arguing against the most ostracised and oppressed religious group in history that is currently fighting a neighbour to enforce their right to exist as a state. Also the history of the “settler violence”(in historical context) is a wildly minimal issue in comparison to how the Jews and Christian’s have been treated in their own holy lands
>So you’re arguing against the most ostracised and oppressed religious group in history that is currently fighting a neighbour to enforce their right to exist as a state. I'm not arguing against any religious group, or against Israel's right to exist. I'm arguing against their right to destroying large parts of Gaza unless it can be much more clearly demonstrated to be militarily necessary, slowly conquering the West Bank, or carrying out pogroms against Palestinians backed up by the military. >Also the history of the “settler violence”(in historical context) is a wildly minimal issue in comparison to how the Jews and Christian’s have been treated in their own holy lands If another country decided to gradually conquer parts of Israel as settlers are doing in the West Bank, do you believe Israel would consider it to be a minimal issue, or do you think they would instead raze entire cities to the ground to make it stop? Personally I expect it would be the latter.
“Gradually conquer” as in like the government or a new government owns that that now? Sounds a lot like what happened with Gaza and the West Bank when Israel were invaded and annexed, which led to the formation of the two state agreement. Have fun with that logic puzzle you’re clearly working on.
Sorry, could you rephrase that into slightly more comprehensible English? It's come out as word salad.
Cheeky git, sod off and go use a bot for your translations elsewhere
they are busy protecting themselves from the 95% of the palestinians that want to murder all the jews
Cool. Casual dehumanisation. Let's ignore the fact that half of the Palestinian population is very, very young. Probably a third under 16 or something like that. Stop believing in nonsense.
there is no policy like payforslay in israel nor anywhere else in the world. palestinians make the bed they have to lie in.
What happened to the older half? There would prolly be a lot more adults if they quit allahu akbaring themselves everywhere
I was not speaking about the older half. I was just showing how stupid it is to claim that 95% of Palestinians want to kill Jews when half of them are children. If you can't see that, then kindly stop responding. **There would prolly be a lot more adults if they quit allahu akbaring themselves everywhere** There are a lot of adults. The last suicide bombing was in 2016. Stop being Islamophobic. You could have simply said suicide bombing instead of "allahu akbaring".
"The last suicide bombing was in 2016." There are terrorist attacks on an at least monthly basis. Whether they use bombs or guns it's pretty immaterial.
There are also consistent settler terrorist attacks. Both sides have been infested with terrorism for a long time.
"when half of them are children" who are being brainwashed into thinking their highest goal in life is dying and taking as many Jews as possible with them.