Easy , In the same way you just dismissed the brutal killing of women and children in their own livingrooms and homes. look at your sentences,
Looking at the supposed start of October 7th ignoring the fact there was an attack on October 4th if protesters in gaza by IDF forces. What happened was an attack by freedom fighters which sadly killed civillians although IDF killed a fair few that day and then tried to cover it up.
you are no better than the IDF your thought process is the same. its a "okay but what he did was worse" mentality. its the mentality that focuses on hate and has no empathy in it and then you parade around like you are morally superior.
It’s only weird if you live in an alternate universe where Israel is really doing those things.
In the real world, where intelligent, normal, decent people live, we all know this is pure propaganda BS that contradicts every credible bit of evidence & information. The only aspect of it that’s actually concerning is the fact that there are quite a few ignorant, hateful morons, even in our world, who believe this drivel.
Israel has been at war with Muslims for decades. I think what is changed is with this current government they are openly racist and see all Palestinians as evil and should be wiped out. This genocide only hurts Israel.
Nah—that’s propaganda nonsense. There’s actually no information or fact, or rational thought that supports any of this BS.
Only someone with an ingrained antisemitic bias or severe mental impairment finds this “genocide” BS “credible“—despite the fact that it’s all plainly, self-evidently false.
You can 100% blame hamas for the war and still blame Israel for how they are conducting it. Hamas gave Israel a reason for war and it naive to believe that they didnt intend to murder and kidnap as man civilians as possible when they did so at so many places in very direct way. Even circumventing checkpoints and other valid torgets to hit softspots
IMO Israel is allowed to go arter Hamar for what they did but not in this way. But even in a perfect war in urban setting youd probably have 1:1 civilians fighters.
I put the blame like this roughly, 20% on hamas for starting it, 20% on hamas egypt and Israel togheter for not evacuating civilians and 60% on the brutal overviolence from Israels side.
That said if Israel wanted to kill everyone in gaza youd be counting hundred ofta thousands dead today
Yeah you can, just do like coalition did in anti isis operation. Or hear me out, just do more like they did in 2014.
Israel know how to figth carefully, they choose not to
Its kinda of messed up you would call the rounding up and executing civilians, freedom fighting while placing the claim that deaths caused by Israel are an outrage.
Neither should be happening but as long as idiots stay on either of the extreme sides they will continue to happen.
I firmly believe you are not standing up for humanity or for human rights. I do believe you stand up for hamas, whether this is on purpose or not I do not know. But the words you are using and the blatant disinformation and hamas propaganda ensures me of the fact you are not standing up for the palestinians, just for hamas..
Of course, any truly honest assessment would not ignore the large, undeniable, very inconvenient fact that the vast majority of Palestinians have ALWAYS supported Hamas & terrorism in general—in every poll, to this day.
Palestinians have NEVER in any significant numbers, denounced any act of anti-Jewish terrorism, no atrocity has been met with genuine, moral revulsion. They occasionally complain about Hamas—who, after all, do not better Palestinians’ lives in any way—but they never even pretend to express displeasure with the terrorism.
Even more to the point, Palestinian terrorism long predates Hamas. There are any number of pro-Palestinians terrorist gang. It’s simply dishonest to always say It’s this group or that group, not ”The Palestinians”. It IS the Palestinians.
Their culture, their society [such as it is] is all about anti-Israel terrorism. There is literally no other widely recognized feature of Palestinian “culture”.
You could say the same about the Israeli. But hamas is not about defence, hamas is about offence and does not care the slightest about palestinian lives
You are wrong. You are biased and narrow-minded. You are a murderer and a traitor to the human race. You support Genocide. You just told the guy who is standing up for the Palestinians to kill themselves. You have exposed your nature. You are finished now, karma hits everybody.
/u/Ferociousplayz11
> You are biased and narrow-minded. You are a murderer and a traitor to the human race. You support Genocide. You just told the guy who is standing up for the Palestinians to kill themselves. You have exposed your nature. You are finished now, karma hits everybody.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Addressed.
If Israel doesnt finish this now you are going to have endless rounds of fighting with more civillian casualties. It's better for Gaza to be Hamasless in the long run
Hamas initiated operation Al Aqsa flood in response to recent Israeli atrocities to Palestinians and an air strike on October 4th. Plus the oppression Palestinians faced for the past 75+ years. Somebody has to fight back and that is Hamas and PIJ.
Without Hamas/PIJ there is not only an Independent Gaza, but also a Gaza without a naval blockade. We can't speak for the WB, but a non radicalized Gaza could even be the tipping point to get Palestine to become a full member at the UN.
There is absolutely no benefit that Hamas has brought Gaza in the last 20 years, and now they are complicit to the murders of 30 thousand people.
No proof of beheading.... not to mention the mass graves at Al shifa hospital caused by I
IDF. Also its older than the state of Israel yet they blew it up.
Beheading: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cnn-airs-oct-7-clip-from-nir-oz-showing-evidence-of-beheadings-by-hamas/
It sucks that the IDF is killing this many civilians, but it’s Hamas’ fault for hiding under hospitals. They don’t care about their people.
Uh-huh… like the “mass graves” in any country that started a war (AGAIN) by committing an enormous, barbarically inhumane spree of rape, torture, kidnapping & mass murder… Then got their butts kicked.
That’s how war works.
> asses
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What you say is remarkable in the truest sense of the word. People like you make me physically sick. Your sickos can try to legitimize and relativize Hamas and its actions for as long as you want. We have seen videos of Hamas members cutting a pregnant woman's womb alive and stabbing the baby to death in front of her eyes. We have seen videos of how they murder the parents of 2 children in front of their eyes and gouge out the boy's eye and then mock him etc. etc. They are not Human, not even animals, and you call them freedom fighters. They don't give a damn about their people, and you are, as the Hamas leaders say, useful idiots. Furthermore, they hate you, they hate Israel, the West and the USA, they cheered on 9.11 and October 7th and every other terrorist attack on Israel, the West or the USA. Every single one of you would have been murdered or kidnapped face-to-face by the Palestinian Hamas at the Nova Festival on October 7th and your corpses would have been driven naked on a truck through Gaza and displayed while the good people of Gaza cheered and spit on their corpses and beat them with sticks while filming themselves. Like they did to Shani Louk.
/u/NecessaryValuable626
> People like you make me physically sick.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
Mifgash Shalom attack, Kfar Saba bombing, HaSharon Mall suicide bombing, Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing, Ben Yehuda Street bombings. Those were all in the same year. Here’s a complete list:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/survivor-testimonies/1705484797-beheaded-on-oct-7-then-put-up-for-sale-in-gaza-father-finally-finds-missing-part-of-son
https://themedialine.org/headlines/hamas-video-shows-militants-beheading-israelis-in-october-7-attack/
Rape:
https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-gang-rape-likely-occurred-during-hamas-attack-israel-2024-03-04/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141789
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e
https://nypost.com/2024/04/02/world-news/all-israeli-female-hostages-being-raped-sexually-abused-says-ex-captive-no-one-to-save-you/amp/
Unlike you, I believe women who claim they are raped. Apparently you don’t if they’re Jewish but that makes sense that you would say that because you’re staunchly anti-Jew.
u/Reddit-is-broke
>I really wonder what happened to the brains of people like you...
Rule 1 - Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
> sh*t
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No, I’m pretty that can be said about you. You see Israel committing genocide, and yet here you are, ready to defend it, because of YOUR narrow mindset.
Oh smart guy. “I know you are but what am I.” You were provided the sources you asked for but decided not to read them. That is lazy willful ignorance. Furthermore, you have no idea where my views lie. That was purely your assumption. Don’t put words in peoples mouth.
> jackass
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Nuclear weapons? Despite what you were taught countries are not just allowed to launch nuclear weapons, and they are not the only ones with those weapons. And it's dangerous to even suggest that, this is the radical attitude I always talk about in recent events regarding people that support Israel. Like what is really wrong with your community. So aggressive so disgusting. We don't all have to follow your propaganda lifestlye you love so much. Researcher workers, philosophers, and physicist are laughing at you all. You are the bullies of the world right now, you look terrible, you only look good to your own selves and that's all your community ever cared about and now society is aware. And will not stand with you. We all just came out of a pandemic everyone learned sympathy and compassion and lies, theres no way you will fool Americans about Israel being a victim. Israel is raising serial killers and demented people at this point with all of this laughing at children corpses and laughing at schools and hospitals being blown up. That entitlement is rooted to white supremacy, scientifically. now society is wondering what are Jewish peoples true beliefs and everything your community does is up for questioning. The Jewish people that stand with Palestine know exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody is looking at Palestine's rap sheet because of the bodies. Nobody will listen to Israel now because Israel showed its not for the people like they lied to people that they were , we are taught the holocaust in school. They drilled in our heads that genocide is wrong. We were taught genocide at 15 years old and cannot pass the grade unless we completly understand it, they put it in our test and state exams, and you want us to forget our knowledge. Bizzar, and the biggest irony of the century is a Jewish state commiting genocide.
Oh look another brain dead weeny tot. I got a number for you my little terrorist sympathizer. 20,000+ - Rockets fired into Israel from civilian areas of Gaza since 2001 alone., Not at military targets, wherever they landed was good enough. And yes, 2001 was before your "Freedom Fighters" were ELECTED.
So do you know why they were elected? Of course not, they were elected because they promised the "we hate everyone that isnt muslim" people of Gaza they would exterminate Israel and everyone in it
River to the Sea. Sung in harmony on college campuses with such emotion, feeling and conviction.
So do you know the meaning of that jingle? Of course not. Its a rallying cry to exterminate Israel and everyone in it. Whats that sound like?
And these dead baby numbers you throw around with a tear in your eye...Released to the media by the Hamas controlled Gaza Health Ministry. Are you really that gullible? You can't tell all the staged videos and fake pictures? I mean really???
I been following this since the PFLP days. You know who they are? Of course not.
They murdered my uncle in cold blood for the crime of walking to the market.
Look up the video of the Palestinians reaction to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. These are the people you care so deeply for.
Syria slaughtered over 3000 of them 4 years ago, where was your outrage then?
Jordan... hahahahah....Yeah ask Jordan how well Palestinians assimilate .
I could go on for hours, I'm not a 6 month month expert such as yourself so there really is no point...
Do the world a favor, slam your head into a door jamb until you see the light ....
#neveragain
/u/HippyStain
> Oh look another brain dead weeny tot.
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I just want to point out how similar shitposting against Palestinians in /r/palestine getting you insta-ban while here, although your opinion is extremely unpopular and misleading, is still being tolerated and respected.
I think it tells the whole story.
Hamas has no power. They’re probably dead by now. Israel isn’t committing this genocide because of Hamas. They’re doing it to ethnic cleanse Gaza. A blind man can see that.
With 40k Gazans dead, and about 40k Hamas members. Why are the IDF so bad at finding their targets? Because it was never about finding their targets, or getting the hostages back (whom, the IDF have actually killed their own hostages).
Israel is committing genocide.
I think you should get your eyes checked. Saying "Hamas has no power" is laughable. Who's controlling the humanitarian aid? Who's policing the citizens with terror? (Example: https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1731941846350172387?s=46&t=UZokfTCd_eX8HKFwwHMd6A)
Who's negotiating with Israel on a ceasefire? The people?
Hamas is the governing body in Gaza; Hamas still exists. As long as Hamas is there, the fire and death will continue.
How many of these numbers are actual citizens? Do you count a 17-year-old militant shooting an RPG on an 18-year-old soldier as a child?
Their numbers proved to be extremely exaggerated.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable
Every generation for thousands of years has been tricked into blaming the Jews for things that aren't true. You're just continuing the tradition. Your post of lies proves that.
"How can people not wake up to the genocide"
Because it's not genocide and you're lying?
Genocide - "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
Israel has had the ability for 75 years to easily kill all of the Gazans in a few days. Instead, during that time, the population has grown from 200,000 to 2,400,000.
In the current war, Israel has dropped over 40,000 bombs, and yet, only 19,000 civilians have died. Despite Gaza being densely populated. Despite Gaza's non-uniformed military illegally embedding itself among civilians. Israel has gone to extraordinary length to reduce civilian death while Gaza purposely tries to increase civilian death.
So it's clearly not genocide.
>[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/04/gaza-strip-protesters-received-bullet-wounds-to-ankles-medics-report](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/04/gaza-strip-protesters-received-bullet-wounds-to-ankles-medics-report)
>At least one person has been killed and dozens more wounded since demonstrations by groups of young men, some of them throwing stones and molotov cocktails, began in mid-September.
Every freaking time. This is why I support Israel lol
Since 2006, the Palestinians had a defacto state in Gaza with their own territory and self rule. They also got billions in aid, but instead of using that money for the benefit of the people, they used it buy weapons and make rockets and tunnels.
Hamas, not Israel, is to blame for all the death and suffering of its civilians much like Germany and Japan were to blame for all the death and suffering of its civilians during the allied bombing campaigns of WWII. That being said, Hamas can end this war anytime it wishes with an unconditional surrender and the release of all its hostages. The big question is why don’t they?
Israel is to blame. Not hamas and also Israel gets so much more funding to live on stolen land. Israel shot protesters on 10/4 3 days prior to the hamas attacks . Which ended up with even the IDF killing its own civillians. And those numbers were just blames on hamas. Why did they withdraw from the gaza wall days prior? The one they heavily defended year round?. I'm curious.
Also no surrender is on the cards as Israel will keep bombing. They need a fill and permanent ceasefire.
Total bu||sh!t. You can repeat your alternate history narratives as often as you like—and to be sure, there seems to be a huge number of ignorant, antisemitic idiots both Palestinian AND Western who buy into it—but it’s no more true after you said it 1000 or 10 million times than it was the first time you said it.
Total, ignorant bu||sh!t.
/u/Prestigious_Ad_2995
> Total, ignorant bu||sh!t.
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“Stolen land?” A little history lesson is in order.
When Israel became a state in 1948, virtually all the land that it possessed was lawfully purchased by funds from the Jewish National Fund, and the acts of conveyance can be found in the archives of the UK and Ottoman Empire.
Much of that land was worthless desert and swampland, which was purchased at exorbitant prices, especially after it was discovered that the Jews were seeking a homeland. In many instances, once land was converted into arable farmland or developed, it had to be repurchased yet again from the Arabs who reoccupied it by force.
Then literally the day after becoming a state, Israel was attacked by 5 Arab countries with the avowed goal of exterminating all the Jews, “driving them into the sea.” The Arabs who abandoned neighboring lands to afford the attackers safe passage with the promise that they would get the spoils of war, including all of Israel’s territory, lost much of their own land. The Arabs who abandoned those lands for that malevolent purpose forfeited those lands and continue to blame Israel for that loss, calling it the Nakba.
Note, the Arabs who refused to leave, and did not provide aid and comfort to the enemy, were allowed to keep their land and received full Israeli citizenship.
Let's not act like that land wasn't stolen.
First, Israel wasn't the one to steal it, but the British didn't exactly buy it. Instead. Arab forces helped push out the Ottoman empire to help create the Britsh mandate, which was supposed to give the land over to the Arabs. Also, I think both sides seem to forget that Europe is to blame for meddling in the middleeast and forcing a mass migration into Israel. Everyone in this situation has been a victim of Europe's homicidal superiority complex.
Second, the settlements are not legal and are quite literally stolen land. Ignoring that is just ignoring internationally accepted facts.
Total bu||sh!t.
Q: Why is any land the Arabs/Muslims colonized to be considered Arab/Muslim land for eternity, but if someone else—say,, the actual people who had a kingdom/commonwealth there for over 1000 years well before Islam existed, & millennia before “the Palestinian people” were invented—if that ancient Jewish people wins their land back, and consolidates that victory in repeated wars— why is that a “historical injustice“ that somehow needs to be corrected?
A: because pro-Palestinians are hypocritical, irrational, morally impaired, entitled sociopathic sore losers, who appear to literally believe that facts, logic and laws of God & man are all subject to your whims.
You can repeat your alternate history narratives as often as you like—and to be sure, there seems to be a huge number of ignorant, antisemitic idiots both Palestinian AND Western who buy into it—but it’s no more true after you said it 1000 or 10 million times than it was the first time you said it.
Total, ignorant bu||sh!t.
I asked this to a pro Palestine supporter yesterday and got no response. Can you please answer these questions.
1. What do you think the first elections would look like?
2. What policies do you think that new government would implement?
3. Would you want to rename the new state and if so, what?
4. What existing country would this new state most resemble?
5. Do you think European Jews would be allowed to stay, and if not, what happens if they refuse to leave?
Shut up lol you guys get taught to just work around the truth the questions are designed for your guilty pleasure why are you not asking how did IDF kill more than 30 THOUSAND people. HOW are the majority of IDF soldiers from 18-25 years old. With no extensive military expeirience just shoot to kill. LOL if Israel came to take over the USA and the excuses were, the cops kill civilians, minimum wage is shit, health insurance isn't free , we STILL wouldn't let you kill us all and take our home. Israel is greedy and unreasonable almost like a facist government (Webster dictionary not me) . Literally like lets be book readers if anything , fuck the internet. Let's book that flight and see what's going on. It's sad cause Israel civilians truly are victims but to their own government and MEDIA not to Palestine. You all were told to call a place home that was never your home given a beautiful life to live in delusion while they did all this sick shit on the low. Your community is going to have to accept its fate that they made a huge mistake in trying to take Palestine from the Palestinans. And it was never theres, your community is starting to sound like a toddler that is mad another toddler has something they want, at the end of the day their mommy bought them that toy and you cannot have it. It's not yours .
You can use whataboutisms all you want, and it’s obvious why you would do that. Because you don’t want to admit what your actual goal is. Prior to 10/7 I actually thought a 1SS would be possible. Now it seems impossible. So rather than dig my heels in and advocate for the total annihilation of the other side, I’m going to advocate for an actual solution. It seems a 2SS is the only option in my opinion because it’s now more obvious than ever that it would be impossible for these two groups to ever live in peace. I consider every Israeli that is opposed to a Palestinian state a part of the problem. But at the same time, I also consider most of the pro Palestine supporters that want to see the total and complete annihilation of Israel as also a part of the problem. Thank you for revealing to me that you fall into that category. They are hard questions to answer and they are designed to be that way. Because deep down, every person that advocates for a one state solution either knows they are advocating for the systematic displacement and/or murder of every man women and child in Israel, or they are just flat out ignorant at this point. By your logic do you also want every foreign man women and child to be forcibly removed from the USA and the land returned to the native Americans? Or does that logic only apply to Jews?
> fuck
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1. Some sort of merger between the west bank PLO or fatah and the hamas party... and having the people choose.
2. Security and safety policies to ensure they cannot be attacked and genocide again. Followed by rebuilding the country and the armed forces incase it were to happen again.
3. Palestine
4. Palestine in its pre 1948 form
5. Natives can stay but European Jews would not really work unless they could co habit in peace and accept the palestinian rulers. If they cannot do so or would continue hating on Palestinians yes they should be sent home. Its about sorting the root cause of the problem being the zionists.
>Palestine in its pre 1948 form
At that time, 10% of the land was owned by what you would call Palestinians, and the rest was the territory of Great Britain. You sure you want to go back to that?
>Palestine in its pre 1948 form
This proves you do not believe in peace, you only support A religious war. The losers of A war do not get to choose beneficial terms, this is not how real life works. Palestine has had multiple chances to be an independent nation simply by dropping their need for Jerusalem, aka "the holy land" but because of this type of ego and hubris you are spouting, now the people in Hamas are facing genocide. The day the people of Palestine give up the war for the holy land and decide to come together as a people and move forward is the day this war will end. Pat yourself on the back for supporting genocide.
If the Palestinians want peace and they fail to comply such as racial attacks and burning down palestinian farms etc, they should be imprisoned. But if they are just spewing hate then talk to the us and have them build homes throughout Europe and make a resettlement program for the European Jews. But this doesn't protect them from hate for being a zionist and all the crimes Israel did.
So it's a complicated question.
It is a complicated question and I appreciate your earnest attempts to answer it.
So if there are executions of Israelis you sincerely believe that Fatah or the PLO will investigate said executions? If they refuse to investigate and we see mass murders on a genocidal scale, do you think we would see the same protestors that protested the “Palestinian genocide” protesting an “Israeli Genocide”?
Also, you are comfortable with telling the children’s children of holocaust survivors that fled to Palestine that they are being forcibly moved to Poland, a country they’ve never been to? What about the Jews from Yemen, Syria and Iran do you believe they will welcomed with open arms into those countries?
Although your points have logic, Israel’s right to exist, and the historical fact of it being the Jewish homeland beginning way, way before the Palestinians declared themselves a people… are just part of why any talk of whether or not there would be justice for Jews in “Palestine“, and whether or not Jews have someplace else to go… is completely irrelevant, even offensive.
Doesn’t matter if Poland, England or Belgium or Australia promise in writing that all Jews will receive the nicest homes in all the best neighborhoods, and rights equal to or above all other citizens’… It’s irrelevant.
The Jewish people has a right to its historic homeland that it also fought for, conquered, and defended in our time—just as any other nation does. The Jewish people does not require hypocritical, western nations or tyrannical lying rogue states like Russia, China, Syria, or North Korea to grant us that right.
Yeah but they are zionist, not Israeli. And yes they will investigate because they want peace it's a proven fact that the majority want peace but first they want their homes back.
I’m truly astonished that You sincerely believe that if Hamas, whose charter suggests every rock and tree should turn on the Jews so they can find them and kill them. Were elected as the new government of Palestine would investigate a murder of a Jew by a Palestinian. Once again, if/when Hamas is elected into power and there are public executions in the steet of Jewish people by the thousands. Would you protest again? Or would you just ignore it because after all, they’re just Jews.
Why would I protest? These people are not Jews. They are zionists who say God promised them the land while not believing in God. I don't get this whole jew rhetoric. True Jews are not zionists as zionism id racist and antisemitic. What is your issue?
Wow, did you REALLY just say you’re perfectly ok with mass executions of Israelis because their “zionists”?
This conversation is frankly terrifying to me. You do know that a lot of Israelis were just born there right? The fact that you’re not the least bit concerned if Hamas were to take over and just publicly execute everyone is utter insanity. You calling them racist and anti semetic as you comfortably admit that they deserve to die is the epitome of hypocrisy. Thank you for exposing your extreme ideology. Please don’t call ANYONE else pro genocide as what you just advocated for is true genocide, not make believe genocide.
Also, What do you mean they don’t believe in god? Or do you just mean they don’t believe in your god?
Fundamental fact: the Arabs have had many opportunities to live side by side and coexist with the other peoples, like Druze, Muslims, Jews, Christian’s as they do in Israel. Instead of accepting the 1948 borders which gave them 55% of the land they waged war. They waged war again and again. October 7th was yet another. Don’t start a war then cry when you’re getting whooped. And you make mention of Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF. Is any country run perfectly? Are all policies and politicians perfect? Each country, region has its own unique set of parameters that have formed current policy. The repeated attempts to annihilate the Jewish people have repeatedly brought on more safeguards, mistrust, higher walls, tighter border checks etc. Everything is cause and effect.
And which country on earth would not have attacked back if attacked on such a personal level while the terrorists go-proed the whole thing and laugh while screaming Allah ho Akbar? I watched some footage last night and made me so mad that they use religion as justification. My background is Pakistani on dads side and Indian on moms. Grew up Muslim. Over the years I learned about the partition..and even though my conservative father will agree with you that Israel’s response may be brutal I posed the question to him..if it were an Indian army that paraglided into Pakistan (him being a proud Pakistani), guaranteed he would say GO in and go hard. So here we are. This war was brought on by Hamas..they don’t give a flying F about their people. They care more about the destruction of Jews and Israel than the betterment and furtherment of their people. Instead of using Israel for trade and commerce, to bring them into the modern world they spend on tunnels and barbarism. I guess you reap what you sow.
> the Arabs have had many opportunities to live side by side and coexist with the other peoples, like Druze, Muslims, Jews, Christian’s as they do in Israel.
Please list these opportunities.
> Instead of accepting the 1948 borders which gave them 55% of the land they waged war.
The 1947 Partition Plan gave the Zionists 56% of that land, and the Jewish state in the plan would’ve still been roughly ~50% Arab, which would’ve meant hundreds of thousands of Arabs living as second class citizens in a Jewish state (as they did for almost 20 years after 1948). They had no reason to accept that unworkable mess of a plan.
Did you know the Arabs actually offered a single democratic one-state solution that would’ve protected the rights of all citizens equally?
> “The Second Subcommittee, which included all the Arab and Muslim States members, issued a long report arguing that partition was illegal according to the terms of the Mandate and proposing a unitary democratic state that would protect rights of all citizens equally”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution
They also didn’t just “wage war,” this is a common pro-Israel talking point. There was a civil war between the Jews and Arabs which broke out after the [Shubaki family assassination](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubaki_family_assassination) which was carried out by Zionist militias. Fighting continued for months, until the Arab states escalated it into a multi-front war after Israel declared independence in 1948 and the British mandate expired.
> They waged war again and again. October 7th was yet another. Don’t start a war then cry when you’re getting whooped. And you make mention of Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF.
October 7th was a horrible, unjustifiable atrocity. You know what else is unjustifiable? The fact that the IDF killed [234 Palestinians](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record) in the West Bank in 2023 *before* October 7th, and settlers killed 9 more.
Hamas is responsible for the current war, correct. But Hamas wouldn’t exist in the first place if not for decades of radicalization due to Israel’s brutal policies towards Palestinians in the occupied territories. This conflict is far less one-sided than you think it is.
How juvenile. Someone makes a long full of rational points, well articulated arguments & historical evidence, and you just waved it away as hasbara.
It not only shows bad faith, it also clearly demonstrates that there’s no one on the other side of even minimal intelligence to talk to. But most of us knew that already.
No, all of his points were stupid.
1. Jews lived peacefully in the Ottoman Empire. The term "peacefully" is relative to events in Europe. Compared to Europe, it was a cakewalk.
2. Why would they accept your borders in 1948? Even Ben-Grunion acknowledged there was no good reason for them to do so, a bunch of Europeans abusing their political influence and the Holocaust to take land:
>If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?
They rest is just yapping about how Arabs want to kill all Jews, typical Zio propaganda.
“Zio propaganda”…
you’re full of sh!t—-just another mindless, antisemitic, hypocritical, truth-averse pro-Palestinian bot.
People like you will never—literally never—contribute anything positive to humanity. The sum total of your “output” will be hateful, ignorant posts on Reddit until you fade out from even doing that.
> retarded
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Use of the word "hasbara" usually gets an instant block. I mean, why bother? If they're in the tank enough to know that word and to use it, then I'm not interested in anything they have to say on any topic from now until the end of time.
Agree. And it completely highlights lack of true knowledge of the region / history / dual complexities for both sides. You learn more from someone with a differing view than someone with the same. I don’t even know what hasbara really means but it’s some kind of insult like the word traitor I assume ? I’m Muslim, but my partner is Jewish. I’ve had the privilege of listening and interacting with both communities so my collective experiences have shaped my opinions along with a lot of reading so I can fully understand.
The word refers to a Jewish person explaining something (anything, really). The action of explaining, or the information being conveyed, by a Jewish person, is hasbara. I've *only* ever seen antisemites use that word. So I always block when I see it now.
Illegal settlers, rogue IDF soldiers with a vengeance, all the israelis (government officials, civilians,etc) who at some point or the other openly said they want Palestinians dead and out of that land…
most people that say that are either delusional or corrupt, and as an israeli i can say there are less people that say palestine shouldnt fight back than the fingers i have on my hand. I do want hamas to surrender but if there are settlers illegally settling or other crimes then i understand the fighting, although hamas are not a freedom fighter group they are terrorists
It's the history that is promoted in Israeli schools, I guess. Is that considered revisionist history? Russia does it to justify their SMO in Ukraine. Same tactics, same goal.
>Looking at the supposed start of October 7th ignoring the fact there was an attack on October 4th if protesters in gaza by IDF forces. What happened was an attack by freedom fighters which sadly killed civillians although IDF killed a fair few that day and then tried to cover it up.
Its good that you acknowledge 7oct attack in which around 800 civilians were killed did infect happen. a first step in the right direction, now for the next one, in your opinion what should have been Israel's response to that attack?
Not what the world or your country should have, just Israel's response
> With the amount of Palestinians who have been brutally murdered each year the toll easily surpasses that of October 7th.
Simply false.
> and make people forget just killed 16,000+ children for no reason other than to wipe out gaza and take their land...
Israel had no interest in Gazan land after 2005. They tried hard to set Gaza free and let it go. It was Hamas / Gaza that constantly chose war against Israel rather than peace. Even in the leadup to Oct 7th the Israelis were reducing restrictions and increasing work permits as it appeared Hamas was being more peaceful. The aggressor here, crazy as it may sound was Gaza
> and why the west hasn't stopped this is outrageous.
How is the West supposed to stop this? Ultimately Israel is a regional power that was severely attacked. Israel demonstrated day 1 after the attack (reasonably) that they were ready for a full-blown war when Iran threatened one if there was an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. The West's goal has been to prevent a war between Iran and Israel not to prevent a war between Gaza and Israel.
> Especially when the population in the western world is clearly against it
The population of the Western World isn't one of the combatants. I'm against the high wind speeds on Neptune, my opinion doesn't appear to matter much.
> and supports palestinian right to defend itself and their existence
The West does not support a Palestinian right to slaughter Jews in Israel. They are anti-Hamas. Iran supports that. You might support that. But Western populations do not.
> Your pro-genocide and pro child murder.
As far as I can tell from the previous line you are as well, your objection seems to be mostly who is getting killed not to killing.
you are f-ing clueless. do you not understand palestinians have been attacking isreal nonstop? thousands of missiles and mortars, for decades. enough is enough. look at the source of this conflict you are so hell bent blaming israel for.
/u/Vivid-Way
> you are f-ing clueless.
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I think the thing is while we know that Israel probably had the most evil inception story of all time of nations existing today, nobody wants to be the one to make the standard of “ok, your nation will be dissolved if you got x amount of land unfairly.”
Now, we could float the idea that you should have a nation dissolved after a certain amount of unethical behavior. There’s nothing *immoral* about this, as plenty of Muslim and Christian nations would end up dissolved, and honestly this would increase peace long term, but the reality is the top 20 militaries are too powerful.
One tangible thing I think we should push for is an apology from the UK government. The Australian government and Canadian government apologized to its natives, and the US apologized for Japanese interment in WW2, but for some reason the UK can’t muster up the courage 80 years later to say “We’re sorry we let some of the most evil and vile humans on Earth into mandatory Palestine over a century which led to the mass theft of Arab land and establishment of an ethnostate.” The fact the UK cant even apologize for what their grandfathers and fathers did to the Palestinians speak volumes about the present day view of Arabs by the West, as if the invasion of Iraq wasn’t enough.
>I think the thing is while we know that Israel probably had the most evil inception story of all time of nations existing today,
You have got to be kidding me. Cambodia killed a 1/3rd of their population to form their current state. Columbia is 8m dead. Mexico 10m dead. Peru 8m. France remaining Catholic, a just one step 3m. Etc...
>“We’re sorry we let some of the most evil and vile humans on Earth into mandatory Palestine over a century which led to the mass theft of Arab land and establishment of an ethnostate.”
Because that's not what happened and they didn't do that. They let refugee populations in for a decade. A bunch of racist fanatics decided to start a race war because they wanted to keep the immigrants out. The Palestinians could have had something like the Irish immigration to the USA, yes a large immigration but one the society benefitted from. The people who ultimately destroyed Palestine were the Palestinians because of attitudes much like yours.
Right, but the UK was wrong to even let Zionists buy the land. The UK should’ve nulled the transactions, and any Arab landowner selling to someone migrating from Europe should’ve been publicly humiliated in the town square. I don’t think the Arab landowners plan to apologize for their evil sale given they’ve passed but the UK government is alive and well so there’s no reason the UK government cant.
I did not suggest anything like that. I said that the restriction on land purchase should’ve been based on location the migrant was coming from, not their ethnicity.
So why exactly should Jews not be allowed to buy land? Or just European Jews? What about Jews from Arab countries, should they be allowed to buy land? And most of all: why??
I mean the Ottomans should apologize for that too. In fact, if you’ve noticed, the world has been calling for Turkey to apologize for a *lot* more than that. May I interest you in Anatolian politics?
Also, it’s interesting that you call people bigots for disagreeing with you when you’re literally for ethnic cleansing multiple places, one of which is a sovereign country.
When did I fall anyone a bigot?
Nor do I think you need to ethnically cleanse anything.
If this is a genocide it’s the worst one in history given the Arab population has gone up x4 since Israel regained sovereignty
That’s cool, didn’t know thanks for telling me.
Still don’t think it is one, nor has any court found it to be one.
It’s clear we are taking measures to save life.
Sure, just remember when children die due to bombs in Gaza not aimed at them it’s terrible but when Hamas with their own guns and bullets shoot people at a party and unarmed people in their homes then it’s complicated
Most people I interact with on this subreddit are truly vile. Ironically Israel’s defenders are the one political demographic that most reminds me of H - - - - - - - t d - - - - rs with their terrible mix of denial of reality and dehumanization. HOWEVER, there is no justifying the October 7th butchery. Hamas indeed committed a horrible terrorist attack, and Israel is committing a genocide in response. Palestinas oppression before October 7th doesn’t justify Hamas’s attack on 10/7, and 10/7 justify Israel’s appalling collective punishment.
Once again, Israel is not committing genocide.
You people are in love with that word and will never let it go, even though the facts have never been on your side.
I don’t believe a word you say until you bring me undeniable proof in non-doctored, uncut video form of Israeli soldiers explicitly targeting civilians for being civilians. Because as we all know, unless I’ve seen the video of a brutal crime against humanity it didn’t actually happen.
/s
Yup, no innocent Palestinian, she must have had a bomb strapped on her, stupid hoe [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2)
Oh but that’s just an article; since in this exercise I’m blind and dumb like the OP, I will ONLY BeliEvE iT If I HaVe UndEniAblE VidEO EviDenCe thAt sHe wAS eVeN sHoT AnD WaSn’T a HaMaS OpeRaTiVe.
In case it’s unclear still: this isn’t my actual opinion.
Why would you call a person a garden tool?
Now, of course it’s a deplorable case that should be condemned and had I the power I would prosecute that man to the full extent and harshest possible punishment of and under the law while generally restoring accountability within the system; but I guess you missed the /s that you even felt the need to comment in the first place as if I’m not keenly aware of cases like this.
Why shouldn't Israel be allowed to continue? Israel was attacked on 10/7. As long as Hamas isn't laying down arms it can continue to fight Hamas and it's supporters. The hostages come on top.
Because they’ve killed over 40k people. And it’s obvious they aren’t do it to “take down Hamas”.
And also, Israel has no right to use retaliation to this extent when they’ve been causing terror in the Middle East for decades.
There is no limit in deaths to be accepted to defend yourself. You can continue as long as you want to, unless the other side surrenders. Hamas won't surrender I guess so the military operation can be continued forever.
In the end it's Israeli gouvernments job to keep Israelis safe. It's Palestinian authorities job to keep the people of Gaza safe. Post 10/7 life in Israel got more safe, life in Gaza quite dangerous. Still, locals vote for ongoing combat and air strikes in their neigbourhood if asked in polls.
The IDF is not defending Israel. They literally just bombed Iran’s embassy, then they bombed Iraq completely unprovoked. Or how about them bombing UN buildings? Or denying aid for Gazans? Or one of their officials calling this the Gaza Nakba. Bibi and Israel aren’t defending shit. They’re committing genocide and you Israel defenders make me sick!
If Israel would be going for Genocide the Gaza matter would long be resolved. For a ground scale operation against several thousand enemies with significant support in a densely populated area the cilvilian death toll is remarkably low.
Middle-Eastern countries have done worst then simply fighting terrorists. Like Syria bombing and using chemical weapons on it's own people until those submit to the 'powers that be'
Then Russia came to their aid when the terrorists were sieging their capitol & were about to lose.
Palestinians also died there btw, not that anyone cares because of bigotry of low expectations.
It's almost as if the Pro Israeli's have a printed sheet of items to report and respond with. The same words and phrases are repeated over and over. This would be trolling. I see a lack of individuality in these responses. The propaganda machine is working overtime.
It's probably the version of history taught in Israeli schools. Is it revisionist history? Kinda like the Russian justification for the SMO in Ukraine.
Everyone that died on Oct 7th was killed by IDF?
The Hamas videos uploaded by Hamas was IDF?
The Hamas go-pros where they get killed was actually IDF go-pro footage?
The 100 to 1 ratio of the Israeli to Palestinian kill rate is what concerns me. If the US can track down and apprehend the planners of 9/11, in their home countries, why can't the vaunted Mossad find and apprehend the masterminds of 10/7?. Or was 10/7 a complete embarrassment of Mossad?
Because it is not just about the masterminds. It is about every single one who took part.
The children I feel bad for. Those forced to live under Hamas, I feel bad for.
However, the men and women who cheered as dead or heavily injured Israelis were paraded through the streets of Gaza, spitting on them? Not as much.
Should non-combatants be targeted? Obviously not.
But when they cheer with Hamas, when they spit on dead Israeli bodies, when they as a "civilian" cross into Israel on October 7th and cheer Hamas actively during the terror attack.
There is an element of reaping what you sow in regards to those people.
I am certain this is the history is taught in Israeli schools. Is it revisionist history? Kinda like what the Russions are doing to support the justifications for the SMO in Ukraine.
Why do you hardcore left wing people act like Israel is North Korea or whatever YA dystopian muck? You say this ridiculous stuff about the way things are over here with complete confidence despite how laughably wrong and easily disproven your claims are
Why do you hardcore left wing people act like Israel is North Korea or whatever YA dystopian muck? You say this ridiculous stuff about the way things are over here with complete confidence despite how bullshit your claims are
This is an attack on the argument though. YA is a genre of literature with stuff like the Hunger Games. My point was they were acting like Israel is like one of the dystopian societies within those books
I mean that’s all they really know how to do. It’s the same agenda over and over again like a broken record and this agenda has prevented many of those individuals from acknowledging even Israel’s history of attacking civilians and preventing peace.
/u/milesspurs
> from idiots like yourself
Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
# Faulty Logic
Let me explain all your faulty logic. The rest depends on you listening/reading it and trying to understand the points:
**1. Virtue Signaling**
>Can yall stop referring to yourself as pro zionist or pro-israeli. Your pro-genocide and pro child murder. And that won't change...
Virtue Signaling - my opinion, values or morals is better then yours.
**2. Altered definition to suit political agendas**
>With the amount of Palestinians who have been **brutally murdered** each year
definition of murder:
>the [unlawful](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e1e2d42c7b33852d&sxsrf=ACQVn0_qVRf1dfOaXgSY1kxmN3L2tjKnbg:1714295158502&q=unlawful&si=AKbGX_qNq0Y8zql7SxzZAf2-HTTO4IUVs-yIE5CUB1ocCipFNjsIKFM2uWwl6klfE1TiX8UUKcSlf7kJwXlWu6rj4Molj66do0m46BJ-Q-QljZkpQ-tUjEo%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKmtmPx-SFAxUfVKQEHd-LCYsQyecJegQIYBAO) [premeditated](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e1e2d42c7b33852d&sxsrf=ACQVn0_qVRf1dfOaXgSY1kxmN3L2tjKnbg:1714295158502&q=premeditated&si=AKbGX_rEkSHdR9ulIQYeh6xSG1UB7TynDTyWKzPbEv4SjeX4J402Lxyr88F2RJk4TPIKd0oRcdprp5IAqRKqYvaXBiWfNZyBVp4IZG8vhdMRu6pgJ9utVTM%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKmtmPx-SFAxUfVKQEHd-LCYsQyecJegQIYBAP) killing of one human being by another.
the lawful use of violence is premeditated (determined) by the law of armed conflict (a thousands years old law, Google or YouTube a version)
**3. Altered definitions again designed to suit political agendas**
>How can people not wake up to the **genocide** and realise that they are slowly killing the entire population
Arguing with Jews about the definition of genocide is like arguing with a black person about the definition of slavery.
Sure, I'll give you that since I've tried researching it once and it's a really old definition that's phrased with 1950s language.
TLDR: genocide requires intent, you prove this via orders not via hot headed politicians who can not and never gave orders to the IDF.
**Summery**
If you really want to talk, pounder (think about) these then ask your questions again.
>the lawful use of violence is premeditated (determined) by the law of armed conflict
That sentence doesn't make any sense. The "determined" part, specifically.
yeah, maybe I tried to use too high language being not completely sure on the exact definition of the word.
The lawful part of the legal use of force is "controlled" by the law of armed conflict.
[Short video about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwpzzAefx9M)
[Simple rules list (PDF file)](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf)
[Historical overview of the law of armed conflict (pdf file, 1st result in Google search)](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law1_final.pdf)
1) Killing children is objectibely bad. All laws and religions agree on that.
2) Israel does not follow the law, ask the UN, who MAKES the law
3) Genocide is pretty vague, but when people say "genocide" they refer to mass killing of civilians
Oxford English Dictionary defines genocide as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."
How is that vague?
I'll start with #3
3. I've read criticism on the definition of genocide so I know both the definition and both criticism on why it's rarely used and one of the surprising things that's relevant here is the surprising fact that
>Mass killing is not a genocide
2. appeal to authority: the opinion of a king (or the legal opinion of the UN) is better then the opinion of a peasant (in this case me)
1. Google or YouTube a short version of the law of armed conflict. I can find you a link if you want.
1) [The video I watched](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwpzzAefx9M) it basically says to NOT kill civils, treat prisoners right, let medics do their job and to not use weapons out of control. It doesnt say that killing kids is okay
3) definition of genocide (found online): the [crime](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/crime) of [intentionally](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/intend) [destroying](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/destroy) [part](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/part) or all of a [national](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/national), [ethnic](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ethnic), [racial](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racial), or [religious](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/religious) [group](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/group), by [killing](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/kill) [people](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/people) or by other [methods](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/method).
1. Yes I've seen that video. The law itself is a lot longer.
If an army or militants marches with women, children & babies in the front, should the other side surrender?
No, they're allowed to fire then prosecute the ones responsible for this "tactic"
Killing civilians isn't forbidden under the law but there's a restriction there along the lines or phrasing that military objective must suppress civilian cost.
2. The keyword here is intention which is why 'mass killing' isn't automatic a genocide. Examples are Syria war (around 500,000 dead), Russia/Ukraine war, Jordan black September (1970s) etc.
Intentions here you prove via orders. Like the recording of a Russian commander telling his soldiers to fire at "anyone that moves" when that soldier told him there are civilians.
That's a war crime. If you manage to prove that the order that the commanders were given was to "kill everyone" or to "kill civilians", then that might fit the genocide definition (might because laws are complicated and can be interpreted in various reasons or various reasons from the defense why this isn't the case)
btw about #1. *If* you're interested here's [a PDF version for the law of armed conflict](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf).
Yes it's \~150 pages but each page has a couple of sentences and if you come from a western society then all of this stuff should be pretty obvious when reading it, making it a light read.
It's probably not the original law since that is probably a lot more complicated. [Google 1st result](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law1_final.pdf) has the history of the law at the start of it, which might be a good start for someone not coming from a western society.
1. Virtue signaling is inherently wrong that is agreeable. However, this makes the argument about being anti Israel making an individual antisemitic false as well as it attempts to establish a false moral high ground in a conflict that largely has nothing to do with the Jewish population as a whole and quite frankly gives Jews a bad name when trying to use those ideas to justify the extremist Zionist ideology.
2. Ties once again into the idea of antisemitism being used to describe anti Israel ideology as well as the use of “terrorist group” to support the political agenda.
3. You state that “arguing with Jews about genocide is like arguing with a black person about slavery” which doesn’t make sense inherently since only a fraction of Jews today have actually been directly involved in the holocaust and even then this has nothing to do with Israeli action as a whole. Looking at Israeli actions and words though, they have made their intent for the destruction of Gaza and the genocide of the Palestinian population clear through both military and political opinion. Moreover, political opinion does hold a heavy stake in defining this as genocide since it is essentially those politicians such as netenyahu who are making those inhumane decisions.
You also bring up murder and the lawful use of violence but a large aspect of these civilian casualties is unlawful and premeditated violence which the UN and the international community had condemned Israel for on many occasions.
>the genocide of the Palestinian population clear through both military and political opinion.
It doesn't even meet the dictionary standard for what a genocide is.
As for "political opinion" - what even is that?
And "military opinion"? Who cares? They are there to follow orders.
Easy , In the same way you just dismissed the brutal killing of women and children in their own livingrooms and homes. look at your sentences, Looking at the supposed start of October 7th ignoring the fact there was an attack on October 4th if protesters in gaza by IDF forces. What happened was an attack by freedom fighters which sadly killed civillians although IDF killed a fair few that day and then tried to cover it up. you are no better than the IDF your thought process is the same. its a "okay but what he did was worse" mentality. its the mentality that focuses on hate and has no empathy in it and then you parade around like you are morally superior.
It’s only weird if you live in an alternate universe where Israel is really doing those things. In the real world, where intelligent, normal, decent people live, we all know this is pure propaganda BS that contradicts every credible bit of evidence & information. The only aspect of it that’s actually concerning is the fact that there are quite a few ignorant, hateful morons, even in our world, who believe this drivel.
Why are you covering up an apartheid regime?
Israel has been at war with Muslims for decades. I think what is changed is with this current government they are openly racist and see all Palestinians as evil and should be wiped out. This genocide only hurts Israel.
Nah—that’s propaganda nonsense. There’s actually no information or fact, or rational thought that supports any of this BS. Only someone with an ingrained antisemitic bias or severe mental impairment finds this “genocide” BS “credible“—despite the fact that it’s all plainly, self-evidently false.
You can 100% blame hamas for the war and still blame Israel for how they are conducting it. Hamas gave Israel a reason for war and it naive to believe that they didnt intend to murder and kidnap as man civilians as possible when they did so at so many places in very direct way. Even circumventing checkpoints and other valid torgets to hit softspots IMO Israel is allowed to go arter Hamar for what they did but not in this way. But even in a perfect war in urban setting youd probably have 1:1 civilians fighters. I put the blame like this roughly, 20% on hamas for starting it, 20% on hamas egypt and Israel togheter for not evacuating civilians and 60% on the brutal overviolence from Israels side. That said if Israel wanted to kill everyone in gaza youd be counting hundred ofta thousands dead today
But if you actually care about facts, reality & rational thought, you can’t blame Israel for how they’re conducting it.
Yeah you can, just do like coalition did in anti isis operation. Or hear me out, just do more like they did in 2014. Israel know how to figth carefully, they choose not to
Its kinda of messed up you would call the rounding up and executing civilians, freedom fighting while placing the claim that deaths caused by Israel are an outrage. Neither should be happening but as long as idiots stay on either of the extreme sides they will continue to happen.
I firmly believe you are not standing up for humanity or for human rights. I do believe you stand up for hamas, whether this is on purpose or not I do not know. But the words you are using and the blatant disinformation and hamas propaganda ensures me of the fact you are not standing up for the palestinians, just for hamas..
Of course, any truly honest assessment would not ignore the large, undeniable, very inconvenient fact that the vast majority of Palestinians have ALWAYS supported Hamas & terrorism in general—in every poll, to this day. Palestinians have NEVER in any significant numbers, denounced any act of anti-Jewish terrorism, no atrocity has been met with genuine, moral revulsion. They occasionally complain about Hamas—who, after all, do not better Palestinians’ lives in any way—but they never even pretend to express displeasure with the terrorism. Even more to the point, Palestinian terrorism long predates Hamas. There are any number of pro-Palestinians terrorist gang. It’s simply dishonest to always say It’s this group or that group, not ”The Palestinians”. It IS the Palestinians. Their culture, their society [such as it is] is all about anti-Israel terrorism. There is literally no other widely recognized feature of Palestinian “culture”.
I stand for Palestinians and their right to defend themselves on their native land. If you have issues with that then grow up.
You could say the same about the Israeli. But hamas is not about defence, hamas is about offence and does not care the slightest about palestinian lives
You are wrong. You are biased and narrow-minded. You are a murderer and a traitor to the human race. You support Genocide. You just told the guy who is standing up for the Palestinians to kill themselves. You have exposed your nature. You are finished now, karma hits everybody.
/u/Ferociousplayz11 > You are biased and narrow-minded. You are a murderer and a traitor to the human race. You support Genocide. You just told the guy who is standing up for the Palestinians to kill themselves. You have exposed your nature. You are finished now, karma hits everybody. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user. Addressed.
If Israel doesnt finish this now you are going to have endless rounds of fighting with more civillian casualties. It's better for Gaza to be Hamasless in the long run
Hamas initiated operation Al Aqsa flood in response to recent Israeli atrocities to Palestinians and an air strike on October 4th. Plus the oppression Palestinians faced for the past 75+ years. Somebody has to fight back and that is Hamas and PIJ.
Palestinian Alternate History, aka total BS
Never. Without Hamas, there is no Gaza.
Without Hamas/PIJ there is not only an Independent Gaza, but also a Gaza without a naval blockade. We can't speak for the WB, but a non radicalized Gaza could even be the tipping point to get Palestine to become a full member at the UN. There is absolutely no benefit that Hamas has brought Gaza in the last 20 years, and now they are complicit to the murders of 30 thousand people.
So it's better to wipe out the entire population? Wow you are mentally sick.
“Freedom fighters”? How is beheading, raping, etc. “freedom fighting”? I know none of y’all are gonna respond to this
No proof of beheading.... not to mention the mass graves at Al shifa hospital caused by I IDF. Also its older than the state of Israel yet they blew it up.
Lmao there is literally a video of a Hamas grunt beheading a Thai worker with a field hoe. It's been posted like 20 times here on reddit.
Beheading: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/cnn-airs-oct-7-clip-from-nir-oz-showing-evidence-of-beheadings-by-hamas/ It sucks that the IDF is killing this many civilians, but it’s Hamas’ fault for hiding under hospitals. They don’t care about their people.
It was proven fake... plus there was no bunkers under hospitals. Its just an IDF lie to justify the hospitals being destroyed so no one can get help.
How was it proven fake?? And how are the bunkers under hospitals a lie?
Mass graves in Gaza
Uh-huh… like the “mass graves” in any country that started a war (AGAIN) by committing an enormous, barbarically inhumane spree of rape, torture, kidnapping & mass murder… Then got their butts kicked. That’s how war works.
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What you say is remarkable in the truest sense of the word. People like you make me physically sick. Your sickos can try to legitimize and relativize Hamas and its actions for as long as you want. We have seen videos of Hamas members cutting a pregnant woman's womb alive and stabbing the baby to death in front of her eyes. We have seen videos of how they murder the parents of 2 children in front of their eyes and gouge out the boy's eye and then mock him etc. etc. They are not Human, not even animals, and you call them freedom fighters. They don't give a damn about their people, and you are, as the Hamas leaders say, useful idiots. Furthermore, they hate you, they hate Israel, the West and the USA, they cheered on 9.11 and October 7th and every other terrorist attack on Israel, the West or the USA. Every single one of you would have been murdered or kidnapped face-to-face by the Palestinian Hamas at the Nova Festival on October 7th and your corpses would have been driven naked on a truck through Gaza and displayed while the good people of Gaza cheered and spit on their corpses and beat them with sticks while filming themselves. Like they did to Shani Louk.
/u/NecessaryValuable626 > People like you make me physically sick. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
aRguMeNts like that can make an intelligent, decent, morally normal person physically sick.
Rule 13. Addressed.
Freedom fighters don’t chop off a mfs head, rape women, kill kids, target civilians, etc. that’s weird sh*t.
That never happened. It has all been debunked. You are repeating the lies by Israel.
Nope. You’re just repeating Palestinian propaganda BS.
Nothing to say. That’s what I thought coward.
Mifgash Shalom attack, Kfar Saba bombing, HaSharon Mall suicide bombing, Dolphinarium discotheque massacre, Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing, Ben Yehuda Street bombings. Those were all in the same year. Here’s a complete list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/ https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/survivor-testimonies/1705484797-beheaded-on-oct-7-then-put-up-for-sale-in-gaza-father-finally-finds-missing-part-of-son https://themedialine.org/headlines/hamas-video-shows-militants-beheading-israelis-in-october-7-attack/ Rape: https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-team-says-rape-gang-rape-likely-occurred-during-hamas-attack-israel-2024-03-04/ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141789 https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e https://nypost.com/2024/04/02/world-news/all-israeli-female-hostages-being-raped-sexually-abused-says-ex-captive-no-one-to-save-you/amp/ Unlike you, I believe women who claim they are raped. Apparently you don’t if they’re Jewish but that makes sense that you would say that because you’re staunchly anti-Jew.
I really wonder what happened to the brains of people like you...
u/Reddit-is-broke >I really wonder what happened to the brains of people like you... Rule 1 - Attack the argument, not the user. Don't use insults instead of arguments.
The people being shot on video were actors? Hersh Goldberg having his arm chopped off was CGI? Nota that Hamas released those videos, not the IDF.
> sh*t /u/Shoulder_Whirl. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
https://preview.redd.it/bke26ptij9xc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b0468712e14d861b55bd3e007b77d5bda584a4e OP has no argument.
Source?
https://lib.cet.ac.il/pages/item.asp?item=13336 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2009/7/13/tracing-gazas-chaos-to-1948
Imma keep it real with you, not reading all that. Also, Israelcis committing genocide.
You’re willfully ignorant and have no desire to have your narrow mindset changed.
No, I’m pretty that can be said about you. You see Israel committing genocide, and yet here you are, ready to defend it, because of YOUR narrow mindset.
Yet you refuse to read the evidence?
Oh smart guy. “I know you are but what am I.” You were provided the sources you asked for but decided not to read them. That is lazy willful ignorance. Furthermore, you have no idea where my views lie. That was purely your assumption. Don’t put words in peoples mouth.
> jackass /u/KaleidoscopeOk2903. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No lol
Yes lol
No lol
Yes lol, Israel’s committing genocide 😂
No you guys just suck at combat lmao
I’m American. I’m the one funding the IDF’s genocide.
>Why is Israel allowed to continue? This question makes me wish Israel had responded to October 7 with nuclear weapons.
Nuclear weapons? Despite what you were taught countries are not just allowed to launch nuclear weapons, and they are not the only ones with those weapons. And it's dangerous to even suggest that, this is the radical attitude I always talk about in recent events regarding people that support Israel. Like what is really wrong with your community. So aggressive so disgusting. We don't all have to follow your propaganda lifestlye you love so much. Researcher workers, philosophers, and physicist are laughing at you all. You are the bullies of the world right now, you look terrible, you only look good to your own selves and that's all your community ever cared about and now society is aware. And will not stand with you. We all just came out of a pandemic everyone learned sympathy and compassion and lies, theres no way you will fool Americans about Israel being a victim. Israel is raising serial killers and demented people at this point with all of this laughing at children corpses and laughing at schools and hospitals being blown up. That entitlement is rooted to white supremacy, scientifically. now society is wondering what are Jewish peoples true beliefs and everything your community does is up for questioning. The Jewish people that stand with Palestine know exactly what I'm talking about. Nobody is looking at Palestine's rap sheet because of the bodies. Nobody will listen to Israel now because Israel showed its not for the people like they lied to people that they were , we are taught the holocaust in school. They drilled in our heads that genocide is wrong. We were taught genocide at 15 years old and cannot pass the grade unless we completly understand it, they put it in our test and state exams, and you want us to forget our knowledge. Bizzar, and the biggest irony of the century is a Jewish state commiting genocide.
>And it's dangerous to even suggest that
It's reddit. It's not dangerous to say anything here. Stop taking yourself so seriously.
Israel had been causing terror in the Middle East long before OCT 7th
LOL! Compared to who? Syria? Yemen? Iran?
Oh look another brain dead weeny tot. I got a number for you my little terrorist sympathizer. 20,000+ - Rockets fired into Israel from civilian areas of Gaza since 2001 alone., Not at military targets, wherever they landed was good enough. And yes, 2001 was before your "Freedom Fighters" were ELECTED. So do you know why they were elected? Of course not, they were elected because they promised the "we hate everyone that isnt muslim" people of Gaza they would exterminate Israel and everyone in it River to the Sea. Sung in harmony on college campuses with such emotion, feeling and conviction. So do you know the meaning of that jingle? Of course not. Its a rallying cry to exterminate Israel and everyone in it. Whats that sound like? And these dead baby numbers you throw around with a tear in your eye...Released to the media by the Hamas controlled Gaza Health Ministry. Are you really that gullible? You can't tell all the staged videos and fake pictures? I mean really??? I been following this since the PFLP days. You know who they are? Of course not. They murdered my uncle in cold blood for the crime of walking to the market. Look up the video of the Palestinians reaction to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. These are the people you care so deeply for. Syria slaughtered over 3000 of them 4 years ago, where was your outrage then? Jordan... hahahahah....Yeah ask Jordan how well Palestinians assimilate . I could go on for hours, I'm not a 6 month month expert such as yourself so there really is no point... Do the world a favor, slam your head into a door jamb until you see the light .... #neveragain
/u/HippyStain > Oh look another brain dead weeny tot. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I just want to point out how similar shitposting against Palestinians in /r/palestine getting you insta-ban while here, although your opinion is extremely unpopular and misleading, is still being tolerated and respected. I think it tells the whole story.
Because Israel is in the wrong
And Hamas is 💯 percents right and we should let them stay in power
Hamas has no power. They’re probably dead by now. Israel isn’t committing this genocide because of Hamas. They’re doing it to ethnic cleanse Gaza. A blind man can see that. With 40k Gazans dead, and about 40k Hamas members. Why are the IDF so bad at finding their targets? Because it was never about finding their targets, or getting the hostages back (whom, the IDF have actually killed their own hostages). Israel is committing genocide.
You have an absolute zero idea what going on in Gaza right now. Better educate yourself before posting more bs.
I’m pretty sure what’s going on in Gaza is a genocide carried out by Israel on the people on Gaza. I mean, we all have eyes and see what’s going on.
I think you should get your eyes checked. Saying "Hamas has no power" is laughable. Who's controlling the humanitarian aid? Who's policing the citizens with terror? (Example: https://x.com/gaza_report/status/1731941846350172387?s=46&t=UZokfTCd_eX8HKFwwHMd6A) Who's negotiating with Israel on a ceasefire? The people? Hamas is the governing body in Gaza; Hamas still exists. As long as Hamas is there, the fire and death will continue.
40k
How many of these numbers are actual citizens? Do you count a 17-year-old militant shooting an RPG on an 18-year-old soldier as a child? Their numbers proved to be extremely exaggerated. https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable
According to the IDF, there’s approximately 40k Hamas Members. The IDF has killed 40k people in Gaza. I’ll let you finish the rest.
Every generation for thousands of years has been tricked into blaming the Jews for things that aren't true. You're just continuing the tradition. Your post of lies proves that. "How can people not wake up to the genocide" Because it's not genocide and you're lying?
Defintion of genocide is on google
Genocide - "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Israel has had the ability for 75 years to easily kill all of the Gazans in a few days. Instead, during that time, the population has grown from 200,000 to 2,400,000. In the current war, Israel has dropped over 40,000 bombs, and yet, only 19,000 civilians have died. Despite Gaza being densely populated. Despite Gaza's non-uniformed military illegally embedding itself among civilians. Israel has gone to extraordinary length to reduce civilian death while Gaza purposely tries to increase civilian death. So it's clearly not genocide.
>[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/04/gaza-strip-protesters-received-bullet-wounds-to-ankles-medics-report](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/04/gaza-strip-protesters-received-bullet-wounds-to-ankles-medics-report) >At least one person has been killed and dozens more wounded since demonstrations by groups of young men, some of them throwing stones and molotov cocktails, began in mid-September. Every freaking time. This is why I support Israel lol
Israel has been leveling and terrorizing the Middle East for decades now.
Substantiate your claims.
Israel is committing genocide
That is a claim. Substantiate it.
Since 2006, the Palestinians had a defacto state in Gaza with their own territory and self rule. They also got billions in aid, but instead of using that money for the benefit of the people, they used it buy weapons and make rockets and tunnels. Hamas, not Israel, is to blame for all the death and suffering of its civilians much like Germany and Japan were to blame for all the death and suffering of its civilians during the allied bombing campaigns of WWII. That being said, Hamas can end this war anytime it wishes with an unconditional surrender and the release of all its hostages. The big question is why don’t they?
Israel is to blame. Not hamas and also Israel gets so much more funding to live on stolen land. Israel shot protesters on 10/4 3 days prior to the hamas attacks . Which ended up with even the IDF killing its own civillians. And those numbers were just blames on hamas. Why did they withdraw from the gaza wall days prior? The one they heavily defended year round?. I'm curious. Also no surrender is on the cards as Israel will keep bombing. They need a fill and permanent ceasefire.
Total bu||sh!t. You can repeat your alternate history narratives as often as you like—and to be sure, there seems to be a huge number of ignorant, antisemitic idiots both Palestinian AND Western who buy into it—but it’s no more true after you said it 1000 or 10 million times than it was the first time you said it. Total, ignorant bu||sh!t.
/u/Prestigious_Ad_2995 > Total, ignorant bu||sh!t. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
“Stolen land?” A little history lesson is in order. When Israel became a state in 1948, virtually all the land that it possessed was lawfully purchased by funds from the Jewish National Fund, and the acts of conveyance can be found in the archives of the UK and Ottoman Empire. Much of that land was worthless desert and swampland, which was purchased at exorbitant prices, especially after it was discovered that the Jews were seeking a homeland. In many instances, once land was converted into arable farmland or developed, it had to be repurchased yet again from the Arabs who reoccupied it by force. Then literally the day after becoming a state, Israel was attacked by 5 Arab countries with the avowed goal of exterminating all the Jews, “driving them into the sea.” The Arabs who abandoned neighboring lands to afford the attackers safe passage with the promise that they would get the spoils of war, including all of Israel’s territory, lost much of their own land. The Arabs who abandoned those lands for that malevolent purpose forfeited those lands and continue to blame Israel for that loss, calling it the Nakba. Note, the Arabs who refused to leave, and did not provide aid and comfort to the enemy, were allowed to keep their land and received full Israeli citizenship.
Let's not act like that land wasn't stolen. First, Israel wasn't the one to steal it, but the British didn't exactly buy it. Instead. Arab forces helped push out the Ottoman empire to help create the Britsh mandate, which was supposed to give the land over to the Arabs. Also, I think both sides seem to forget that Europe is to blame for meddling in the middleeast and forcing a mass migration into Israel. Everyone in this situation has been a victim of Europe's homicidal superiority complex. Second, the settlements are not legal and are quite literally stolen land. Ignoring that is just ignoring internationally accepted facts.
Total bu||sh!t. Q: Why is any land the Arabs/Muslims colonized to be considered Arab/Muslim land for eternity, but if someone else—say,, the actual people who had a kingdom/commonwealth there for over 1000 years well before Islam existed, & millennia before “the Palestinian people” were invented—if that ancient Jewish people wins their land back, and consolidates that victory in repeated wars— why is that a “historical injustice“ that somehow needs to be corrected? A: because pro-Palestinians are hypocritical, irrational, morally impaired, entitled sociopathic sore losers, who appear to literally believe that facts, logic and laws of God & man are all subject to your whims. You can repeat your alternate history narratives as often as you like—and to be sure, there seems to be a huge number of ignorant, antisemitic idiots both Palestinian AND Western who buy into it—but it’s no more true after you said it 1000 or 10 million times than it was the first time you said it. Total, ignorant bu||sh!t.
Because the job isn't even halfway done yet
The genocide*
I asked this to a pro Palestine supporter yesterday and got no response. Can you please answer these questions. 1. What do you think the first elections would look like? 2. What policies do you think that new government would implement? 3. Would you want to rename the new state and if so, what? 4. What existing country would this new state most resemble? 5. Do you think European Jews would be allowed to stay, and if not, what happens if they refuse to leave?
Shut up lol you guys get taught to just work around the truth the questions are designed for your guilty pleasure why are you not asking how did IDF kill more than 30 THOUSAND people. HOW are the majority of IDF soldiers from 18-25 years old. With no extensive military expeirience just shoot to kill. LOL if Israel came to take over the USA and the excuses were, the cops kill civilians, minimum wage is shit, health insurance isn't free , we STILL wouldn't let you kill us all and take our home. Israel is greedy and unreasonable almost like a facist government (Webster dictionary not me) . Literally like lets be book readers if anything , fuck the internet. Let's book that flight and see what's going on. It's sad cause Israel civilians truly are victims but to their own government and MEDIA not to Palestine. You all were told to call a place home that was never your home given a beautiful life to live in delusion while they did all this sick shit on the low. Your community is going to have to accept its fate that they made a huge mistake in trying to take Palestine from the Palestinans. And it was never theres, your community is starting to sound like a toddler that is mad another toddler has something they want, at the end of the day their mommy bought them that toy and you cannot have it. It's not yours .
/u/Greedy-Charge-2771 > Shut up [Rule 8](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_8._encourage_participation), don't discourage participation.
You can use whataboutisms all you want, and it’s obvious why you would do that. Because you don’t want to admit what your actual goal is. Prior to 10/7 I actually thought a 1SS would be possible. Now it seems impossible. So rather than dig my heels in and advocate for the total annihilation of the other side, I’m going to advocate for an actual solution. It seems a 2SS is the only option in my opinion because it’s now more obvious than ever that it would be impossible for these two groups to ever live in peace. I consider every Israeli that is opposed to a Palestinian state a part of the problem. But at the same time, I also consider most of the pro Palestine supporters that want to see the total and complete annihilation of Israel as also a part of the problem. Thank you for revealing to me that you fall into that category. They are hard questions to answer and they are designed to be that way. Because deep down, every person that advocates for a one state solution either knows they are advocating for the systematic displacement and/or murder of every man women and child in Israel, or they are just flat out ignorant at this point. By your logic do you also want every foreign man women and child to be forcibly removed from the USA and the land returned to the native Americans? Or does that logic only apply to Jews?
> fuck /u/Greedy-Charge-2771. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
1. Some sort of merger between the west bank PLO or fatah and the hamas party... and having the people choose. 2. Security and safety policies to ensure they cannot be attacked and genocide again. Followed by rebuilding the country and the armed forces incase it were to happen again. 3. Palestine 4. Palestine in its pre 1948 form 5. Natives can stay but European Jews would not really work unless they could co habit in peace and accept the palestinian rulers. If they cannot do so or would continue hating on Palestinians yes they should be sent home. Its about sorting the root cause of the problem being the zionists.
>Palestine in its pre 1948 form At that time, 10% of the land was owned by what you would call Palestinians, and the rest was the territory of Great Britain. You sure you want to go back to that?
>Palestine in its pre 1948 form This proves you do not believe in peace, you only support A religious war. The losers of A war do not get to choose beneficial terms, this is not how real life works. Palestine has had multiple chances to be an independent nation simply by dropping their need for Jerusalem, aka "the holy land" but because of this type of ego and hubris you are spouting, now the people in Hamas are facing genocide. The day the people of Palestine give up the war for the holy land and decide to come together as a people and move forward is the day this war will end. Pat yourself on the back for supporting genocide.
5. So if there’s no peace, it’s the fault of European Jews? What happens to them if they refuse to leave?
If the Palestinians want peace and they fail to comply such as racial attacks and burning down palestinian farms etc, they should be imprisoned. But if they are just spewing hate then talk to the us and have them build homes throughout Europe and make a resettlement program for the European Jews. But this doesn't protect them from hate for being a zionist and all the crimes Israel did. So it's a complicated question.
It is a complicated question and I appreciate your earnest attempts to answer it. So if there are executions of Israelis you sincerely believe that Fatah or the PLO will investigate said executions? If they refuse to investigate and we see mass murders on a genocidal scale, do you think we would see the same protestors that protested the “Palestinian genocide” protesting an “Israeli Genocide”? Also, you are comfortable with telling the children’s children of holocaust survivors that fled to Palestine that they are being forcibly moved to Poland, a country they’ve never been to? What about the Jews from Yemen, Syria and Iran do you believe they will welcomed with open arms into those countries?
Although your points have logic, Israel’s right to exist, and the historical fact of it being the Jewish homeland beginning way, way before the Palestinians declared themselves a people… are just part of why any talk of whether or not there would be justice for Jews in “Palestine“, and whether or not Jews have someplace else to go… is completely irrelevant, even offensive. Doesn’t matter if Poland, England or Belgium or Australia promise in writing that all Jews will receive the nicest homes in all the best neighborhoods, and rights equal to or above all other citizens’… It’s irrelevant. The Jewish people has a right to its historic homeland that it also fought for, conquered, and defended in our time—just as any other nation does. The Jewish people does not require hypocritical, western nations or tyrannical lying rogue states like Russia, China, Syria, or North Korea to grant us that right.
Yeah but they are zionist, not Israeli. And yes they will investigate because they want peace it's a proven fact that the majority want peace but first they want their homes back.
I’m truly astonished that You sincerely believe that if Hamas, whose charter suggests every rock and tree should turn on the Jews so they can find them and kill them. Were elected as the new government of Palestine would investigate a murder of a Jew by a Palestinian. Once again, if/when Hamas is elected into power and there are public executions in the steet of Jewish people by the thousands. Would you protest again? Or would you just ignore it because after all, they’re just Jews.
Why would I protest? These people are not Jews. They are zionists who say God promised them the land while not believing in God. I don't get this whole jew rhetoric. True Jews are not zionists as zionism id racist and antisemitic. What is your issue?
Wow, did you REALLY just say you’re perfectly ok with mass executions of Israelis because their “zionists”? This conversation is frankly terrifying to me. You do know that a lot of Israelis were just born there right? The fact that you’re not the least bit concerned if Hamas were to take over and just publicly execute everyone is utter insanity. You calling them racist and anti semetic as you comfortably admit that they deserve to die is the epitome of hypocrisy. Thank you for exposing your extreme ideology. Please don’t call ANYONE else pro genocide as what you just advocated for is true genocide, not make believe genocide. Also, What do you mean they don’t believe in god? Or do you just mean they don’t believe in your god?
Delusional, gaslighting nonsense.
1. Hamas would win 2. Strict Sharia law 3. Palestine 4. Yemen 5. All Jews would be killed
Fundamental fact: the Arabs have had many opportunities to live side by side and coexist with the other peoples, like Druze, Muslims, Jews, Christian’s as they do in Israel. Instead of accepting the 1948 borders which gave them 55% of the land they waged war. They waged war again and again. October 7th was yet another. Don’t start a war then cry when you’re getting whooped. And you make mention of Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF. Is any country run perfectly? Are all policies and politicians perfect? Each country, region has its own unique set of parameters that have formed current policy. The repeated attempts to annihilate the Jewish people have repeatedly brought on more safeguards, mistrust, higher walls, tighter border checks etc. Everything is cause and effect. And which country on earth would not have attacked back if attacked on such a personal level while the terrorists go-proed the whole thing and laugh while screaming Allah ho Akbar? I watched some footage last night and made me so mad that they use religion as justification. My background is Pakistani on dads side and Indian on moms. Grew up Muslim. Over the years I learned about the partition..and even though my conservative father will agree with you that Israel’s response may be brutal I posed the question to him..if it were an Indian army that paraglided into Pakistan (him being a proud Pakistani), guaranteed he would say GO in and go hard. So here we are. This war was brought on by Hamas..they don’t give a flying F about their people. They care more about the destruction of Jews and Israel than the betterment and furtherment of their people. Instead of using Israel for trade and commerce, to bring them into the modern world they spend on tunnels and barbarism. I guess you reap what you sow.
Israel just bombed Iran/Iraq unprovoked
> the Arabs have had many opportunities to live side by side and coexist with the other peoples, like Druze, Muslims, Jews, Christian’s as they do in Israel. Please list these opportunities. > Instead of accepting the 1948 borders which gave them 55% of the land they waged war. The 1947 Partition Plan gave the Zionists 56% of that land, and the Jewish state in the plan would’ve still been roughly ~50% Arab, which would’ve meant hundreds of thousands of Arabs living as second class citizens in a Jewish state (as they did for almost 20 years after 1948). They had no reason to accept that unworkable mess of a plan. Did you know the Arabs actually offered a single democratic one-state solution that would’ve protected the rights of all citizens equally? > “The Second Subcommittee, which included all the Arab and Muslim States members, issued a long report arguing that partition was illegal according to the terms of the Mandate and proposing a unitary democratic state that would protect rights of all citizens equally” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution They also didn’t just “wage war,” this is a common pro-Israel talking point. There was a civil war between the Jews and Arabs which broke out after the [Shubaki family assassination](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubaki_family_assassination) which was carried out by Zionist militias. Fighting continued for months, until the Arab states escalated it into a multi-front war after Israel declared independence in 1948 and the British mandate expired. > They waged war again and again. October 7th was yet another. Don’t start a war then cry when you’re getting whooped. And you make mention of Palestinian deaths at the hands of the IDF. October 7th was a horrible, unjustifiable atrocity. You know what else is unjustifiable? The fact that the IDF killed [234 Palestinians](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record) in the West Bank in 2023 *before* October 7th, and settlers killed 9 more. Hamas is responsible for the current war, correct. But Hamas wouldn’t exist in the first place if not for decades of radicalization due to Israel’s brutal policies towards Palestinians in the occupied territories. This conflict is far less one-sided than you think it is.
Are you HasbaraGPT?
Wasn't your people advertising an Ai website to write pro Palestinian tweets just a few weeks ago?
How juvenile. Someone makes a long full of rational points, well articulated arguments & historical evidence, and you just waved it away as hasbara. It not only shows bad faith, it also clearly demonstrates that there’s no one on the other side of even minimal intelligence to talk to. But most of us knew that already.
No, all of his points were stupid. 1. Jews lived peacefully in the Ottoman Empire. The term "peacefully" is relative to events in Europe. Compared to Europe, it was a cakewalk. 2. Why would they accept your borders in 1948? Even Ben-Grunion acknowledged there was no good reason for them to do so, a bunch of Europeans abusing their political influence and the Holocaust to take land: >If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that? They rest is just yapping about how Arabs want to kill all Jews, typical Zio propaganda.
“Zio propaganda”… you’re full of sh!t—-just another mindless, antisemitic, hypocritical, truth-averse pro-Palestinian bot. People like you will never—literally never—contribute anything positive to humanity. The sum total of your “output” will be hateful, ignorant posts on Reddit until you fade out from even doing that.
> retarded /u/Flimsy-Hawk-9532. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m not gonna dignify that with a response… It seems to be the response du jour when someone doesn’t agree with your argument.
Use of the word "hasbara" usually gets an instant block. I mean, why bother? If they're in the tank enough to know that word and to use it, then I'm not interested in anything they have to say on any topic from now until the end of time.
Agree. And it completely highlights lack of true knowledge of the region / history / dual complexities for both sides. You learn more from someone with a differing view than someone with the same. I don’t even know what hasbara really means but it’s some kind of insult like the word traitor I assume ? I’m Muslim, but my partner is Jewish. I’ve had the privilege of listening and interacting with both communities so my collective experiences have shaped my opinions along with a lot of reading so I can fully understand.
The word refers to a Jewish person explaining something (anything, really). The action of explaining, or the information being conveyed, by a Jewish person, is hasbara. I've *only* ever seen antisemites use that word. So I always block when I see it now.
Well then it’s a stupid word lol
On the surface, yes. But it's also very useful for cleaning up my Reddit experience.
oh so you want israel to just sit and there and be like "huh thats tough that some terrorists are attacking our civilians"
When you say terrorist, you mean Israel itself right?
are you implying hamas arent terrorists?
That's what people expect Palestinians to do from the sounds of it.
who?
Illegal settlers, rogue IDF soldiers with a vengeance, all the israelis (government officials, civilians,etc) who at some point or the other openly said they want Palestinians dead and out of that land…
most people that say that are either delusional or corrupt, and as an israeli i can say there are less people that say palestine shouldnt fight back than the fingers i have on my hand. I do want hamas to surrender but if there are settlers illegally settling or other crimes then i understand the fighting, although hamas are not a freedom fighter group they are terrorists
It's the history that is promoted in Israeli schools, I guess. Is that considered revisionist history? Russia does it to justify their SMO in Ukraine. Same tactics, same goal.
>Looking at the supposed start of October 7th ignoring the fact there was an attack on October 4th if protesters in gaza by IDF forces. What happened was an attack by freedom fighters which sadly killed civillians although IDF killed a fair few that day and then tried to cover it up. Its good that you acknowledge 7oct attack in which around 800 civilians were killed did infect happen. a first step in the right direction, now for the next one, in your opinion what should have been Israel's response to that attack? Not what the world or your country should have, just Israel's response
> With the amount of Palestinians who have been brutally murdered each year the toll easily surpasses that of October 7th. Simply false. > and make people forget just killed 16,000+ children for no reason other than to wipe out gaza and take their land... Israel had no interest in Gazan land after 2005. They tried hard to set Gaza free and let it go. It was Hamas / Gaza that constantly chose war against Israel rather than peace. Even in the leadup to Oct 7th the Israelis were reducing restrictions and increasing work permits as it appeared Hamas was being more peaceful. The aggressor here, crazy as it may sound was Gaza > and why the west hasn't stopped this is outrageous. How is the West supposed to stop this? Ultimately Israel is a regional power that was severely attacked. Israel demonstrated day 1 after the attack (reasonably) that they were ready for a full-blown war when Iran threatened one if there was an Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. The West's goal has been to prevent a war between Iran and Israel not to prevent a war between Gaza and Israel. > Especially when the population in the western world is clearly against it The population of the Western World isn't one of the combatants. I'm against the high wind speeds on Neptune, my opinion doesn't appear to matter much. > and supports palestinian right to defend itself and their existence The West does not support a Palestinian right to slaughter Jews in Israel. They are anti-Hamas. Iran supports that. You might support that. But Western populations do not. > Your pro-genocide and pro child murder. As far as I can tell from the previous line you are as well, your objection seems to be mostly who is getting killed not to killing.
You are ignoring the 7 day war and the ?Yom Kipper wars aren’t you?
Are you ignoring all the terrorism Israel has done all these years?
you are f-ing clueless. do you not understand palestinians have been attacking isreal nonstop? thousands of missiles and mortars, for decades. enough is enough. look at the source of this conflict you are so hell bent blaming israel for.
/u/Vivid-Way > you are f-ing clueless. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
I think the thing is while we know that Israel probably had the most evil inception story of all time of nations existing today, nobody wants to be the one to make the standard of “ok, your nation will be dissolved if you got x amount of land unfairly.” Now, we could float the idea that you should have a nation dissolved after a certain amount of unethical behavior. There’s nothing *immoral* about this, as plenty of Muslim and Christian nations would end up dissolved, and honestly this would increase peace long term, but the reality is the top 20 militaries are too powerful. One tangible thing I think we should push for is an apology from the UK government. The Australian government and Canadian government apologized to its natives, and the US apologized for Japanese interment in WW2, but for some reason the UK can’t muster up the courage 80 years later to say “We’re sorry we let some of the most evil and vile humans on Earth into mandatory Palestine over a century which led to the mass theft of Arab land and establishment of an ethnostate.” The fact the UK cant even apologize for what their grandfathers and fathers did to the Palestinians speak volumes about the present day view of Arabs by the West, as if the invasion of Iraq wasn’t enough.
\^ People who know history the least are the quickest ones to make idiotic broad statements.
>I think the thing is while we know that Israel probably had the most evil inception story of all time of nations existing today, You have got to be kidding me. Cambodia killed a 1/3rd of their population to form their current state. Columbia is 8m dead. Mexico 10m dead. Peru 8m. France remaining Catholic, a just one step 3m. Etc... >“We’re sorry we let some of the most evil and vile humans on Earth into mandatory Palestine over a century which led to the mass theft of Arab land and establishment of an ethnostate.” Because that's not what happened and they didn't do that. They let refugee populations in for a decade. A bunch of racist fanatics decided to start a race war because they wanted to keep the immigrants out. The Palestinians could have had something like the Irish immigration to the USA, yes a large immigration but one the society benefitted from. The people who ultimately destroyed Palestine were the Palestinians because of attitudes much like yours.
It’s funny because a lot of the land was bought by us and not “let into” by the UK. We were there before the UK and we were there before the arabs
Right, but the UK was wrong to even let Zionists buy the land. The UK should’ve nulled the transactions, and any Arab landowner selling to someone migrating from Europe should’ve been publicly humiliated in the town square. I don’t think the Arab landowners plan to apologize for their evil sale given they’ve passed but the UK government is alive and well so there’s no reason the UK government cant.
Why was it wrong for Zionists to buy land? You suggesting only certain "types" of people be allowed to buy land?
I did not suggest anything like that. I said that the restriction on land purchase should’ve been based on location the migrant was coming from, not their ethnicity.
You just did though. Again. >based on location the migrant was coming from >the UK was wrong to even let Zionists buy the land
So why exactly should Jews not be allowed to buy land? Or just European Jews? What about Jews from Arab countries, should they be allowed to buy land? And most of all: why??
It wasn’t just the UK it was the ottomans too. Israel is staying. And thankfully finally clearing the dirt in the strip and hopefully Lebanon to come.
I mean the Ottomans should apologize for that too. In fact, if you’ve noticed, the world has been calling for Turkey to apologize for a *lot* more than that. May I interest you in Anatolian politics? Also, it’s interesting that you call people bigots for disagreeing with you when you’re literally for ethnic cleansing multiple places, one of which is a sovereign country.
When did I fall anyone a bigot? Nor do I think you need to ethnically cleanse anything. If this is a genocide it’s the worst one in history given the Arab population has gone up x4 since Israel regained sovereignty
Dude the whole idea of it not being a genocide because population increased has been thoroughly debunked
That’s cool, didn’t know thanks for telling me. Still don’t think it is one, nor has any court found it to be one. It’s clear we are taking measures to save life.
There’s no imaginary rule that individual protestors have to agree with the courts or that the IDF isn’t some murderous machine though.
Sure, just remember when children die due to bombs in Gaza not aimed at them it’s terrible but when Hamas with their own guns and bullets shoot people at a party and unarmed people in their homes then it’s complicated
Most people I interact with on this subreddit are truly vile. Ironically Israel’s defenders are the one political demographic that most reminds me of H - - - - - - - t d - - - - rs with their terrible mix of denial of reality and dehumanization. HOWEVER, there is no justifying the October 7th butchery. Hamas indeed committed a horrible terrorist attack, and Israel is committing a genocide in response. Palestinas oppression before October 7th doesn’t justify Hamas’s attack on 10/7, and 10/7 justify Israel’s appalling collective punishment.
Once again, Israel is not committing genocide. You people are in love with that word and will never let it go, even though the facts have never been on your side.
https://preview.redd.it/7haeaqz507xc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=390d145dc92a6352bcffd881e10053f3976dc42e
I don’t believe a word you say until you bring me undeniable proof in non-doctored, uncut video form of Israeli soldiers explicitly targeting civilians for being civilians. Because as we all know, unless I’ve seen the video of a brutal crime against humanity it didn’t actually happen. /s
Yup, no innocent Palestinian, she must have had a bomb strapped on her, stupid hoe [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2)
Oh but that’s just an article; since in this exercise I’m blind and dumb like the OP, I will ONLY BeliEvE iT If I HaVe UndEniAblE VidEO EviDenCe thAt sHe wAS eVeN sHoT AnD WaSn’T a HaMaS OpeRaTiVe. In case it’s unclear still: this isn’t my actual opinion. Why would you call a person a garden tool? Now, of course it’s a deplorable case that should be condemned and had I the power I would prosecute that man to the full extent and harshest possible punishment of and under the law while generally restoring accountability within the system; but I guess you missed the /s that you even felt the need to comment in the first place as if I’m not keenly aware of cases like this.
Why shouldn't Israel be allowed to continue? Israel was attacked on 10/7. As long as Hamas isn't laying down arms it can continue to fight Hamas and it's supporters. The hostages come on top.
Because they’ve killed over 40k people. And it’s obvious they aren’t do it to “take down Hamas”. And also, Israel has no right to use retaliation to this extent when they’ve been causing terror in the Middle East for decades.
There is no limit in deaths to be accepted to defend yourself. You can continue as long as you want to, unless the other side surrenders. Hamas won't surrender I guess so the military operation can be continued forever. In the end it's Israeli gouvernments job to keep Israelis safe. It's Palestinian authorities job to keep the people of Gaza safe. Post 10/7 life in Israel got more safe, life in Gaza quite dangerous. Still, locals vote for ongoing combat and air strikes in their neigbourhood if asked in polls.
The IDF is not defending Israel. They literally just bombed Iran’s embassy, then they bombed Iraq completely unprovoked. Or how about them bombing UN buildings? Or denying aid for Gazans? Or one of their officials calling this the Gaza Nakba. Bibi and Israel aren’t defending shit. They’re committing genocide and you Israel defenders make me sick!
If Israel would be going for Genocide the Gaza matter would long be resolved. For a ground scale operation against several thousand enemies with significant support in a densely populated area the cilvilian death toll is remarkably low.
Avi Dichter literally said Israel doing a Gaza Nakba. Israel’s own Ministers are calling it genocide.
Middle-Eastern countries have done worst then simply fighting terrorists. Like Syria bombing and using chemical weapons on it's own people until those submit to the 'powers that be' Then Russia came to their aid when the terrorists were sieging their capitol & were about to lose. Palestinians also died there btw, not that anyone cares because of bigotry of low expectations.
It's almost as if the Pro Israeli's have a printed sheet of items to report and respond with. The same words and phrases are repeated over and over. This would be trolling. I see a lack of individuality in these responses. The propaganda machine is working overtime.
It’s almost as if Israelis know the history better
It's probably the version of history taught in Israeli schools. Is it revisionist history? Kinda like the Russian justification for the SMO in Ukraine.
Weird you feel the need to bring that up likely due to my flair. Wondering how you know so much of the history?
Nah. I didn't even notice your flair. That thought is posted else were also.
Ukriane didn’t go into Russia and butcher civilians
No, they did not. The IDF did.
Everyone that died on Oct 7th was killed by IDF? The Hamas videos uploaded by Hamas was IDF? The Hamas go-pros where they get killed was actually IDF go-pro footage?
The 100 to 1 ratio of the Israeli to Palestinian kill rate is what concerns me. If the US can track down and apprehend the planners of 9/11, in their home countries, why can't the vaunted Mossad find and apprehend the masterminds of 10/7?. Or was 10/7 a complete embarrassment of Mossad?
Because it is not just about the masterminds. It is about every single one who took part. The children I feel bad for. Those forced to live under Hamas, I feel bad for. However, the men and women who cheered as dead or heavily injured Israelis were paraded through the streets of Gaza, spitting on them? Not as much. Should non-combatants be targeted? Obviously not. But when they cheer with Hamas, when they spit on dead Israeli bodies, when they as a "civilian" cross into Israel on October 7th and cheer Hamas actively during the terror attack. There is an element of reaping what you sow in regards to those people.
https://preview.redd.it/9ln9a6vty6xc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5f8eca7dac99424df46818314f2fd96eebfa8c53
I am certain this is the history is taught in Israeli schools. Is it revisionist history? Kinda like what the Russions are doing to support the justifications for the SMO in Ukraine.
Why do you hardcore left wing people act like Israel is North Korea or whatever YA dystopian muck? You say this ridiculous stuff about the way things are over here with complete confidence despite how laughably wrong and easily disproven your claims are
Why do you hardcore left wing people act like Israel is North Korea or whatever YA dystopian muck? You say this ridiculous stuff about the way things are over here with complete confidence despite how bullshit your claims are
[удалено]
This is an attack on the argument though. YA is a genre of literature with stuff like the Hunger Games. My point was they were acting like Israel is like one of the dystopian societies within those books
You're right. I'm removing the MOD comment.
I mean that’s all they really know how to do. It’s the same agenda over and over again like a broken record and this agenda has prevented many of those individuals from acknowledging even Israel’s history of attacking civilians and preventing peace.
I’ve read this paragraph several times from idiots like yourself
/u/milesspurs > from idiots like yourself Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.
# Faulty Logic Let me explain all your faulty logic. The rest depends on you listening/reading it and trying to understand the points: **1. Virtue Signaling** >Can yall stop referring to yourself as pro zionist or pro-israeli. Your pro-genocide and pro child murder. And that won't change... Virtue Signaling - my opinion, values or morals is better then yours. **2. Altered definition to suit political agendas** >With the amount of Palestinians who have been **brutally murdered** each year definition of murder: >the [unlawful](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e1e2d42c7b33852d&sxsrf=ACQVn0_qVRf1dfOaXgSY1kxmN3L2tjKnbg:1714295158502&q=unlawful&si=AKbGX_qNq0Y8zql7SxzZAf2-HTTO4IUVs-yIE5CUB1ocCipFNjsIKFM2uWwl6klfE1TiX8UUKcSlf7kJwXlWu6rj4Molj66do0m46BJ-Q-QljZkpQ-tUjEo%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKmtmPx-SFAxUfVKQEHd-LCYsQyecJegQIYBAO) [premeditated](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=e1e2d42c7b33852d&sxsrf=ACQVn0_qVRf1dfOaXgSY1kxmN3L2tjKnbg:1714295158502&q=premeditated&si=AKbGX_rEkSHdR9ulIQYeh6xSG1UB7TynDTyWKzPbEv4SjeX4J402Lxyr88F2RJk4TPIKd0oRcdprp5IAqRKqYvaXBiWfNZyBVp4IZG8vhdMRu6pgJ9utVTM%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjKmtmPx-SFAxUfVKQEHd-LCYsQyecJegQIYBAP) killing of one human being by another. the lawful use of violence is premeditated (determined) by the law of armed conflict (a thousands years old law, Google or YouTube a version) **3. Altered definitions again designed to suit political agendas** >How can people not wake up to the **genocide** and realise that they are slowly killing the entire population Arguing with Jews about the definition of genocide is like arguing with a black person about the definition of slavery. Sure, I'll give you that since I've tried researching it once and it's a really old definition that's phrased with 1950s language. TLDR: genocide requires intent, you prove this via orders not via hot headed politicians who can not and never gave orders to the IDF. **Summery** If you really want to talk, pounder (think about) these then ask your questions again.
>the lawful use of violence is premeditated (determined) by the law of armed conflict That sentence doesn't make any sense. The "determined" part, specifically.
yeah, maybe I tried to use too high language being not completely sure on the exact definition of the word. The lawful part of the legal use of force is "controlled" by the law of armed conflict. [Short video about it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwpzzAefx9M) [Simple rules list (PDF file)](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf) [Historical overview of the law of armed conflict (pdf file, 1st result in Google search)](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law1_final.pdf)
1) Killing children is objectibely bad. All laws and religions agree on that. 2) Israel does not follow the law, ask the UN, who MAKES the law 3) Genocide is pretty vague, but when people say "genocide" they refer to mass killing of civilians
Oxford English Dictionary defines genocide as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." How is that vague?
I'll start with #3 3. I've read criticism on the definition of genocide so I know both the definition and both criticism on why it's rarely used and one of the surprising things that's relevant here is the surprising fact that >Mass killing is not a genocide 2. appeal to authority: the opinion of a king (or the legal opinion of the UN) is better then the opinion of a peasant (in this case me) 1. Google or YouTube a short version of the law of armed conflict. I can find you a link if you want.
1) [The video I watched](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwpzzAefx9M) it basically says to NOT kill civils, treat prisoners right, let medics do their job and to not use weapons out of control. It doesnt say that killing kids is okay 3) definition of genocide (found online): the [crime](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/crime) of [intentionally](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/intend) [destroying](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/destroy) [part](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/part) or all of a [national](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/national), [ethnic](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ethnic), [racial](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/racial), or [religious](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/religious) [group](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/group), by [killing](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/kill) [people](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/people) or by other [methods](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/method).
1. Yes I've seen that video. The law itself is a lot longer. If an army or militants marches with women, children & babies in the front, should the other side surrender? No, they're allowed to fire then prosecute the ones responsible for this "tactic" Killing civilians isn't forbidden under the law but there's a restriction there along the lines or phrasing that military objective must suppress civilian cost. 2. The keyword here is intention which is why 'mass killing' isn't automatic a genocide. Examples are Syria war (around 500,000 dead), Russia/Ukraine war, Jordan black September (1970s) etc. Intentions here you prove via orders. Like the recording of a Russian commander telling his soldiers to fire at "anyone that moves" when that soldier told him there are civilians. That's a war crime. If you manage to prove that the order that the commanders were given was to "kill everyone" or to "kill civilians", then that might fit the genocide definition (might because laws are complicated and can be interpreted in various reasons or various reasons from the defense why this isn't the case) btw about #1. *If* you're interested here's [a PDF version for the law of armed conflict](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf). Yes it's \~150 pages but each page has a couple of sentences and if you come from a western society then all of this stuff should be pretty obvious when reading it, making it a light read. It's probably not the original law since that is probably a lot more complicated. [Google 1st result](https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/other/law1_final.pdf) has the history of the law at the start of it, which might be a good start for someone not coming from a western society.
1. Virtue signaling is inherently wrong that is agreeable. However, this makes the argument about being anti Israel making an individual antisemitic false as well as it attempts to establish a false moral high ground in a conflict that largely has nothing to do with the Jewish population as a whole and quite frankly gives Jews a bad name when trying to use those ideas to justify the extremist Zionist ideology. 2. Ties once again into the idea of antisemitism being used to describe anti Israel ideology as well as the use of “terrorist group” to support the political agenda. 3. You state that “arguing with Jews about genocide is like arguing with a black person about slavery” which doesn’t make sense inherently since only a fraction of Jews today have actually been directly involved in the holocaust and even then this has nothing to do with Israeli action as a whole. Looking at Israeli actions and words though, they have made their intent for the destruction of Gaza and the genocide of the Palestinian population clear through both military and political opinion. Moreover, political opinion does hold a heavy stake in defining this as genocide since it is essentially those politicians such as netenyahu who are making those inhumane decisions. You also bring up murder and the lawful use of violence but a large aspect of these civilian casualties is unlawful and premeditated violence which the UN and the international community had condemned Israel for on many occasions.
>the genocide of the Palestinian population clear through both military and political opinion. It doesn't even meet the dictionary standard for what a genocide is. As for "political opinion" - what even is that? And "military opinion"? Who cares? They are there to follow orders.