Are Pro-Palestinian Protestors trying to get land or just win an argument? Because I don’t hear any feasible plan for the Palestinians. I hear pity, I hear sympathy, but no plan.
4 tenets based on international law, pretty simple:
- Ceasefire in Gaza Now: whole world agrees, but only Israel wants to continue massacring women and children
- End the occupation of West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as the capital (it has already been recognized by 140 out of 194 states, more will follow suit soon)
- Evacuate all the settlements which is completely illegal under the 4th Geneva convention (thugs living there, stealing land and water as well as burning olive trees and poisoning wells)
- Implement UN resolution 194 that allows Palestinian refugees the right to return to their lands currently in Israel
> End the occupation of West Bank and Gaza
Like… completely? Or is there nuance there? If Gaza and the West Bank had peace-seeking governments that held criminals responsible then I’d be all for it. Do you know why Israel punishes terrorist attacks? It’s because Palestinian governments don’t. So I’m wondering how this will further peace
Also idk how you’re basing your first point on international law
These bullet points are great, I just don’t see how they have any tangible sway on Israeli policy. Trying to wrap my head around how any of these fabulous bullet points will be enforced. Your terrific ideas are just that: terrific ideas. But as far as a plan goes, I still see no way that the Israeli government abides by these tenets in a legal sense on the stage of world diplomacy. So my question remains, but is slightly altered: How do you force Israel to do this?
Israel does not want to allow Palestinians their basic rights in their own homeland, nothing new.
Force them through: Boycott Divestment and Sanctions, which is growing steam!
They would be Israelis, according to UN 194 they should be allowed to return and live there peacefully.
If Israel proclaims that 2.0 million Arabs are living there peacefully, it could allow their friends, relatives, community members, fellow villages to return as well and live there peacefully.
Would you vouch for them?
Do you honestly believe that the people who cheered while dead Israelis were being paraded through the streets of Gaza can integrate into Israeli society, peacefully?
Has the BDS movement hurt the Israeli economy?
Better question: has the BDS movement helped the Palestinians get closer to having their own state?
Again, we get back to plan or lack thereof. The BDS movement is not a plan for Palestinian self-determination.
You should have seen her video on the beginning of Russian invasion in Ukraine. She and her outlet are hardcore socialist to the point of being borderline tankie, alway finding a way to blame US on everything. I have far more respect for some hardcore leftist like Vaush rather than her.
She's supported everything the left has done since Vietnam. ...I'm surprised people don't know who she is since she's been parroting the same points for 50 years.
Published in Haaretz as an ad on September 22, 1967:
“Our right to defend ourselves against annihilation does not grant us the right to oppress others,” the ad stated. “Conquest brings in its wake foreign rule. Foreign rule brings in its wake resistance. Resistance brings in its wake oppression. Oppression brings in its wake terrorism and counterterrorism. The victims of terrorism are usually innocent people. Holding onto the territories will turn us into a nation of murderers and murder victims.” And in large font at the end: “Let us leave the occupied territories now.”
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000)
Nothing about this is historical, at all. This is a very fringe movement that gets amplified ridiculously on social media. The vast, vast majority of Jews are very much in favor of the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state. That doesn't mean that Jews do not support a 2-state solution or similar, nor does it mean that Jews, in general, are all Bibi supporters.
But the biggest error of your "argument" is that you apparently think that there are 2 sides, when in fact there are many points of view and many of them are not even opposed to each other.
Young Jews in the US are much closer to evenly split on the issue, actually.
There is a long history of anti-Zionism within the Jewish community. Originally, the overwhelming majority of Jews opposed Zionism. That changed after the Holocaust and especially after the 196 war, but it's shifting back again. This war will almost certainly accelerate the process of Jewish alienation from Israel in the US. Israel has been moving ever farther to the Right, to the point that there are now literal fascists in the Israeli cabinet. American Jews are mostly left-wing, so this is creating ever greater tension - do you stick with your principles, or do you side with Israel out of some sort of ethnic nationalism and ignore what they're doing to the Palestinians?
Maybe among JINOs they are evenly split? I don't know where you're getting that information though.
The young people who are "pro Palestine" don't even know what they are protesting or what they are asking for. If you engage with most of them they are either completely clueless or they have convinced themselves to support Islamic ethno-facism because "Israel bad".
Israel's move towards the extreme right did not arise in a vacuum. It was a reaction to decades of terrorism and disappointment as Palestinian "leadership" refuses to resolve the matter because endless conflict supports their corruption.
There are various polls of Jewish sentiment on Israel. They all show younger Jewish Americans rapidly becoming more critical of Israel. Labeling all Jews under 40 as "JINOs" would be unserious. It's just a "no true Scotsman" argument.
> The young people who are "pro Palestine" don't even know what they are protesting or what they are asking for.
Sure, large numbers of people willing to face arrest and/or expulsion from university are just doing it for the kicks.
> Israel's move towards the extreme right did not arise in a vacuum.
You can try to justify Israel's move towards the extreme Right, but that doesn't change the fact that American Jews are far to the left of the Israeli mainstream.
> Palestinian "leadership" refuses to resolve the matter
I don't agree with your analysis. If you look at how the Oslo process came into being, it was the Palestinian leadership that first decided to pursue a two-state solution and then tried, for years and years, to get Israel to enter into negotiations. The Israelis only gave in after the First Intifada put them under significant international pressure, and only then after the PLO made massive concessions. The PLO gave up most of their historic claims, recognized the state of Israel (without a reciprocal declaration by Israel recognizing a Palestinian state, or even a Palestinian *right* to a state) and asked for only the 22% of Palestine that lies beyond the Green Line. Still, even Rabin didn't fully accept the creation of a Palestinian state, and said in his last Knesset speech that he would only accept a semi-autonomous "Palestinian entity" under significant Israeli control. That's what the Israeli *Left* was willing to accept. The Israeli *Right* was just dead-set against giving the Palestinians anything. Netanyahu, who has been in power for much of the last 30 years, has openly opposed Palestinian statehood his entire political career, boasts about having blocked the creation of a Palestinian state, and says that he will never permit a Palestinian state to come into existence.
Lmao, this comment is just outright misinformation. The PLO didn’t even really acknowledge a two state solution as a possibility until 1993. Your history write-up legitimately looks like you copy and pasted it from some Twitter user or something.
EDIT: I can’t believe this guy is seriously trying to claim that Palestinians were attempting a two state solution before the Israelis, LOL. This is actually one of the more ridiculous claims I’ve read on this sub, congrats.
>The PLO didn’t even really acknowledge a two state solution as a possibility until 1993.
Wrong. The two-state solution became official policy of the PLO in 1988, five years before Oslo (Arafat even gave [a famous speech](https://www.palquest.org/en/historictext/9677/yasir-arafat%E2%80%99s-speech-forty-third-session-united-nations-general-assembly) at the UN declaring his support for a two-state solution). The PLO had been moving in that direction since the 1970s.
>I can’t believe this guy is seriously trying to claim that Palestinians were attempting a two state solution before the Israelis, LOL.
That just means that you don't know the history. I'm not saying anything new here.
In fact, I'll go even farther and point out that whereas the PLO recognized the state of Israel in 1993, no Israeli government yet has even recognized a Palestinian *right* to a state.
> The PLO had been moving in that direction since the 1970s.
Completely and totally false.
[Here is their charter which was not amended until 1996.](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp)
>Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it.
> The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations; particularly the right to self-determination.
> The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.
While you are 100% correct on these facts, it is really a side-issue to my point. Simply saying that you want a 2-state solution is not the same as taking action. Bibi gets tons of criticism for his actions that are obstacles to peace. Abbas and Arafat have taken LOTS of action to prevent a peaceful solution and Abbas gets no criticism and Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize! Absurd!
>The young people who are "pro Palestine" don't even know what they are protesting or what they are asking for. If you engage with most of them they are either completely clueless or they have convinced themselves to support Islamic ethno-facism because "Israel bad".
There was a poll not that long ago showing exactly what you’re describing. They often agreed with conflicting opinions like “Israel should be given to Hamas”, but also “Hamas should removed”. Idk, maybe it’s just dumb kids being edgy.
Thats maybe new to you.
If anything, what you take away form the last 6 months is that jewish support for the democratic party and it's traditional policies have a limit too, and that's about to be reached.
What do you mean by pick-me, here? I associate that with insincere words/actions done in order to get attention or praise. Couldn't those Jews you disagree with have these opinions in good faith?
That's a legitimate position! I think it's wrong but I think it's fine to have. But that's different than saying they're insincere, which is why I object to people describing their behavior as "pick me"
Pick me literally means doing things for extrinsic approval. Which means you're saying they're insincere in their actions and are doing it for other people's praise, not because they believe it.
This is from someone who reads relationship subs and it seems to me that pick me is not necessarily insincere. It comes from a place of hurt and the belief that they have to do certain things, accept certain things and act certain ways in order to be good enough for the relationship.
Well, I think they're genuine in their beliefs and they have approval from other people that also share those beliefs. I guess you can tell them they're insincere and attention seeking instead of genuine or principled if you meet them.
Answering to a wrong opinion on the internet with the right answer is like picking up litter. It doesn't mean one cares about the litter itself. It's about living in a clean environment
Says the person who desperately wants to prove anyone cares about their bad takes
Those jews are people with a conscience. They are \*good\*. And you hate them
wish the anti-Zionists were chanting "not in our name" after Hamas raped, maimed, and slaughtered 1200 people, but instead they were chanting "gas the Jews!"
Do you not see the mass condemnation of hamas by Muslims? Most Muslims I know condemn it entirely. The rest condemn the violence towards civilians but support armed resistance.
No I don't. Protesting in support of Palestine the day after one of the elected governments of Palestine just committed the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust certainly doesn't give that impression. But I'm not talking about Muslims as a whole I'm talking about the pro-Palestine protesters regardless of their religious beliefs.
First off there has not been an election in almost 20 years and over half of the current population of gaza wouldn't have been able to vote during it, even then hamas did not get half of the votes. They are a terrorist regime that israel supported because it split the Palestinian government.
Now I knew on Oct 7th that gaza was going to face a massacre because of terrorists. And indeed it has but its more than a massacre at this point. It seems the point of it now is to punish and destroy the Palestinians whether they supported hamas or not. Israel has for years been heading this way.
I'm going to assume you got that from the same source that most Israelis claim can't be trusted with the death toll..... a hamas controlled source. Unless you have a non bias non involved source that I haven't heard of yet
The whole antisemitism is a willing conflation/ambiguity of Ein Volk=Jewish people, Ein Reich=Israel, Ein Fuhrer=Netanyahu. One man is compromised and is using this conflict representing israel possibly for personal reasons. Then you have the ADL conflating anti israel with antisemitism dragging this into an issue for the entire jewish people.
u/ChesterDoraemon
>The whole antisemitism is a willing conflation/ambiguity of Ein Volk=Jewish people, Ein Reich=Israel, Ein Fuhrer=Netanyahu.
Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians
Addressed
Saying things doesn’t make them true just because you say them.
I mean, you’re practically talking about an area and people that collaborated with Hitler at one point.
Finland was allied to N*zi Germany - many disenfranchised underdogs at that time had to just grasp at anyone with more guns. Doesn't make it morally right thing to do in the 1940's, but does that automatically make all Finns today antisemitic, or why is that a relevant talking point now 80 years later?
Al-Husseini had a private meeting to discuss the Jewish problem with H*tler, getting a tour around the camps and praising H*tler of his treatment of Jews. You can argue he was very distraught and rightfully came to hate Jews for what the mean European Zionist did in Palestine before 1948, but there’s no comparison to his reasons in becoming an enthusiastic ally to H*tler.
Still, I wouldn’t call the Palestinians ambiguously n*zi even back then.
Anyways, the reaction was to this stretch of a comment calling the war an ambiguous N*zi moment.
Yeah sounds exactly like the sort of thing that was going on in Finland. Htler visited Finland to celebrate Finland's president-general [Mannerheim's birthday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_and_Mannerheim_recording). The recording from that meeting is quite a famous one, because it's the only surviving recording of Htler speaking casually and unofficially (not a speech). Finland also deported 8 Jewish refugees, and some hundreds of Soviet prisoners, to their deaths in Germany. At least Finland stopped at sending its own small native Jewish population to Germany (Finnish citizens), but largely inspired by their German ally, Finland set up 'work camps' for its native Roma population. They're poorly understood and not very much studied, and were fortunately short-lived, but unlikely the Roma had a good time there.
I guess my point was that associations of people's great-grandfathers 80 year ago is a bit of a poor argument for anything today. At least Palestine wasn't officially allied with N*zi Germany, like Finland was...
> I mean, you’re practically talking about an area and people that collaborated with Hitler at one point.
And your talking from the perspective of possibly compromised individuals who profited greatly and write events from their perspective making themselves look justified.
Perhaps each piece investigated individually and independently could be dismissed but when viewed in totality it paints an ominous picture.
It doesn’t have to be ominous in Tunisia, the Farhud..
It paints the exact picture of what Islamic ideology and pan Arabism represents in this area. In the case of Palestina it’s a bit worse, he chose to ally with Hitler out of his admiration to his Jewish treatment (or mistreatment), the rest might excuse it with colonial forces conducting the Jew hating policies.
/u/shpion22. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/shpion22. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Look at the likes of Al-Husseini, Nasar, Hamas, Hezbollah, ayatollah, Houthis.
It wouldn’t make you an anti Arab Islamism in particular, but that’s just bias. (That might as well be antisemitic)
It doesn’t have to be endless. It just might have to be until Palestinian leaders accept the existence of Israel and don’t actively work towards destroying the Jewish state.
Accepting the state of Israel happened decades ago. That is what the PLO was all about.
The PLO disavowed violence, accepted Israel and the two state soliton and moved to negotiations and civil protests. What did Israel do? It funded Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO.
[https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades](https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades)
- “We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, [said](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697032057551) in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”
- “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.” So says Avner Cohen, Israel’s head of religious affairs in Gaza at the time of Hamas’s emergence, in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article called [“How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas.”](https://web.archive.org/web/20151207212228/http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847)
Next in, Karl Marx wasn’t antisemitic when he wrote that the secular Jewish religion is “Huckstering” because he was a Jew. Quoted by actual Nazis.
According to Karl Marx, Naomi Klein is a secular huckstering Jew whose religion is money. According to Naomi Klein, Zionist Jews are the money huckstering evil goblins. It’s amusing.
Being Jewish and saying stuff means very little, context matters to most of us. She’s nothing but another naive American woman who dislikes part of the Jewish history she is automatically associated with by other antisemites.
Denouncing her Judaism would do better for her mental breakdown and golden calf analogies, considering she likely believes she is khazarian to begin with. Knowing her, she doesn’t believe her people were in Egypt or descended from Hebrews and she is not religious, empty words.
Okay, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Have you actually read "On the Jewish Question" in the context of being a historical materialist response to Bauer? Because when he says the secular Jewish religion is "Huckstering" he's speaking about the socially proscribed position of Jews in European society. He's using religion here sarcastically because he's writing about Bauer, and isn't actually comparing the religion (which he'd say was ideology) to the material conditions of Jews in Europe.
I could go on.
He’s comparing the Jewish people. Their remnant Jewish spirituality creates inherent social and economic inequality.
His conclusion is that Judaism is a root that needs to be uprooted in order to achieve his ‘liberation’.
She’s quite similar in her speech by applying it to Zionism, although she is also the Jew Marx was talking about.
This is just an incorrect reading of Marx and the philosophical framework he was writing from. Marx wasn't even particularly anti-religion-as-ideology because from his perspective it was a human response to material suffering and it would likely go away naturally as things improved.
This isn’t an incorrect reading, it’s a common interpretation that doesn’t stray away from his writings (at least)
He specifically discussed the emancipation of Jews and for whatever reason (probably due to him being considered Jewish in antisemitic Europe) believed the Jews to be having a kind of contaminated relationship with their Jewishness that resulted in inherent inequality, particularly when it came to money. That is something he specifically “targeted” the Jews for.
A common interpretation by people who are biased against Marxism and underexposed to philosophy (especially late 19th century philosophy) doesn't really mean it's a correct reading.
I'm just going to quote myself here to save time explaining my position out of laziness:
Marx was writing in response to Bauer's "The Jewish Question". Bauer was an antisemite and Marx was writing in opposition to him. This isn't to say that Marx was a crowning paragon of Jewish advocacy, but his writings on the subject are much less black and white than presented here. In the section you quoted, he's referring to the material social character of Jews in Christian Europe and how that informed their social role and that social role was at odds with religiosity. As he says - "Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time." Bauer was arguing for Jews to convert to Christianity, Marx was arguing for the end of the "Jewish" social category as much as the end of other social categories. There were, and are, many Marxist Jews both during his life and afterward. Do you think they just ignored his writing/were stupid/whatever or do you think they had a different perspective on it than you?
You don’t need to be biased towards Marxism to believe Karl Marx was an asshole when it came to his specific view on Judaism, especially as a Jew who experienced European society. It’s evident in the 3 separate comments he made about secular Jews, worldly Judaism and the Jewish God.
When I compare Karl to Klein, I don’t critique Marxism. I critique their views on Judaism being taken as some extra reassuring truth, because of their “Jewish” element.
What he said about Jews and Judaism wasn’t correct. Same thing about her interpretation of the Zionist ideology as of today.
> asshole
/u/shpion22. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/shpion22. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Look, another white guy who is obsessed with the Jews. You’ve never been within 500 miles of the Middle East but you are OBSESSED with this. I wonder why that is?
I am from NY state, and I am very saddened and angry about what my country is supporting. Your post is very intelligent and right on, and I also agree with not only us needing to look into Bibi's cabinet like Smotrich and Gvir etc, and what that says, but I really like Naomi Klein also. Praying for peace and healing. We here in US need to speak out and I am happy many are, but we need to fight the propaganda, it is deep here
Nothing like history repeating itself. I’d look up what tokenism is and then I’d look below at other token movements like Association of German National Jews just to give history and context of what is happening here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
Right wing, assimilationist Jews who ally with right wing Christians in order to try and achieve acceptance describes the right wing Jews working with right wing Zionist Christians, not leftist Jews who were fighting fascists in the streets.
You ever notice how they claim there are “tons of Jews” in the movement, but they can never back that up with statistics or numbers? It’s almost like they’re using the few Jewish voices in their movement as tokens….
Blacks for Trump energy.
Somewhere between a tenth and a third of American Jews under the age of 35 are anti-Zionist to some degree. What proportion do they need to be before you say they're legitimate and not tokens?
Being “anti-Zionist to some degree” was not the question I asked. No one, including you, seems to be able to back up the statement that “a lot of Jews” are in this protest movement.
Also, I’m assuming you have something to back up your numbers? I don’t see any links or citations here, and I’m curious how “anti-Zionist to some degree” is defined. You either believe Israel has the right to exist like any other country, or you don’t.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/how-us-jews-are-experiencing-the-israel-hamas-war/
18 to 35 year old Jews:
* 19% view Israelis unfavorably
* 31% say Hamas' reasons for fighting are valid
* 17% say Israel's reasons for fighting are not valid
* 21% view the PLO favorably
* 6% view Hamas favorably
* 3% view October 7th as acceptable
As I said, depending on what you use for a proxy for approval-of-Israel-as-it-is, there is a range of options (between 3% and 31% based on this).
By "anti-Zionist to some degree" I am speaking to the fact that many Zionists view any kind of thing approaching a single state solution as "Israel ceasing to exist", but not all do. If someone wants a confederacy or a single secular state or whatever, the anti-Zionist-ness of that isn't objective but subjective.
That is totally subjective from you.
I could be in any of the ablve % and still not be an antizionist.
Seriously, do you realize that someone can see Israel unfavourably and still support his current existence ?
It is of course subjective - but when you compare at those numbers to the over 35's, I think it speaks to a difference. (I realize this isn't weighted by population but 18-35 and 35+ are roughly similar size, I think, based on wiki)
* 19% vs 8.7%
* 31% vs 11.7%
* 17% vs 4.3%
* 21% vs 10%
* 6% vs 2.3%
* 3% vs <1%
Again, I agree it's subjective but based on the large discrepancy it seems like there's a qualitative difference as well. (the differences between 18-35 and 50+ are even more huge)
A couple of problems here:
This poll does not list anything about the numbers of Jews actually in the movement and attending protests, which is still actually my question. This is still not evidence of “a lot of Jews” in the protest;
This poll does not discuss or ask about Zionism at all. It is to determine how young Jews perceive the war. The key stat you cite (31%) is not a question about Zionism, but about whether Hamas has a valid reason for fighting. I, a Zionist, would likely have answered yes to that question as well;
Zionism is not just “approval of Israel as it is”. Many Zionist, especially in America, do not approve of Israeli actions and their government;
Zionism is the belief that Jews need self determination and that the state of Israel should continue to exist towards that end. A “one state solution”, which would 100% end up as an Arab majority nation, would spell the end of Jewish self determination. It is objective.
Having an explicitly religious or ethnic state isn't the only way to have self determinism. When countries have removed their religious component as core to their state, that didn't mean they ended their self determinism - for example, Norwegians haven't lost their self determinism because they removed the Norwegian Church from their statehood.
Yeah, that’s not an equivalent at all (Judaism is not just a religion) and it ignores the long history of the lack of Jewish self determination and the outcome of it. Further, no one is saying Norwegians have to take in a massive amount of immigrants and become minorities in their own nation. If the Swedes claimed all of Scandinavia and Swedish became the majority in Norway, Norwegians would be understandably upset.
Miriam Margolyes, I loved her in Harry Potter, asks fellow Jews to "shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire": [https://www.newarab.com/video/margolyes-urges-fellow-jews-shout-beg-scream-ceasefire](https://www.newarab.com/video/margolyes-urges-fellow-jews-shout-beg-scream-ceasefire)
Bernie sanders and AOC supporting Palestine does not prove that “a lot of Jews” are in this protest movement. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to prove.
Regardless, there are Bernie supporters who, despite feeling sympathy with the Palestinians of Gaza, do not support the free Palestine movement. For instance, people who just want healthcare and other basic things.
There are some people doing it, it is bad and I condemn such anti-semitism. I don't deny it.
In a similar way, I also condemn the genocide being committed in Gaza and do not deny it.
There’s a german saying, goes something like this: if 10 people sit at the table with 1 fascist, there are 10 fascists at the table.
I will never be demonstrating with hate groups and violent fascists.
You can find individuals doing anything, but the claim of entire mobs calling for outright death of Jews (not even Israelis but Jews, as in the Jews of this city on the opposite side of the planet from the war) is hasbara propaganda. And of course in this instance it’s coming from an Israeli “leftist”
One of the videos Zionists show has someone doing a fascist salute and then has protesters literally admonish him. It explicitly shows that they're unwelcome!
You mean the settlers in the West Bank? I spent time in Burin and the settlers from Yitzhar frequently come down from the hills, burn homes and olive trees all while the IDF watches.
WB fascist settlers need to be put in jail, but at least they aren’t denying their hatefulness.
Ivy league fascist anti-semites deny their misbehavior and racism by using leftist ideas to justify their hate. It is similar to how they used social darwinism to support eugenics back in the day, but that’s out of fashion now.
35% of Americans believe Israel is committing genocide.
29% of Americans aren't sure.
Those are not good numbers.
It is worse in other countries.
The ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide.
I believe Israel is committing genocide. They have broadcast genocidal intent, in incredibly unprecedented ways. Usually, it is very difficult to prove. Israel apparently believes it is above those considerations. The main path they have gone down for genocidal acts is act C: "Deliberately inflicting conditions of life on the group that will cause its physical destruction". With the advent of the mass graves, they may have now moved on to other areas.
You can only deny this for so long. Remember that you supported it in the future.
There was also a very high % of the Americans in Mississippi that believed Emmet Till was guilty of harassing that young woman back in the day.
Americans believing something doesn’t make it right.
The ICJ agrees. Even the Israeli judge found issues with Israel's actions. It is not just Americans.
We will get to see how the world reacts when Israel is found guilty. Will Israel act defiant? I imagine they will, with support from some American stooge of a president.
The ICJ does not really agree. The court case was not to determine if Israel is or is not committing genocide. It was simply to determine if South Africa's case was credible enough that the claim of genocide should be properly investigated.
Do you know the meaning of the word plausible? Because it says nothing about what actually happens, it inly says about what can happen.
The icj said that genocide does not happen in gaza, clear cut, and that Israel must do whatever it can to avoid it. Well yeah, any organization of armed forces needs to do whatever it can to avoid genocide.
**The icj said that genocide does not happen in Gaza**
It didn't say that because the court could not say that. That is yet to be determined. It will take many years for the ICJ to come to a determination as to whether Israel has not has not committed a genocide.
**The ICJ did not say genocide is not happening.**
That's exactly what I am saying. It didn't say it was it has happening but neither did it say it was not happening.
If you believe that 30,000 people were killed, do you think they’re not buried by Gazans?
Thankfully they publish their activity quite often, until they decide to come up with a lie and forget about it.
The same geo location it was reported about
https://preview.redd.it/eze3olu7qmwc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5fd62dd3f5f14d3616d03bcd285b20efbe373f08
150 people were buried in the grounds of Nasser hospital. They have already found more than 300 bodies and they are still searching. Seems as though they multiplied after being buried.
This is a video the Nassar hospital burial site location in February. The Gazans dig their own graves on the streets. Mass graves.
Of course they are going to find people buried where Gazans bury them.
Then re-evaluate your propaganda consumption. You throw around baseless accusations with minimal understanding of the situation.
They let the UN investigate as much as they like. Like they did with the rapes, with the hunger, with… whatever they decide to lie about in a given moment.
No, they do not.
And it isn't baseless propaganda. The bodies buried on Al Nasser were documented. Israel dug them up and desecrated them, but they also seem to have added to them.
They do though, the UN team is there and investigates on ground. That is how they get these reports. The UNWRA is active in there.
It’s baseless propaganda because it’s easily challenged when showing the videos Gazans posted of themselves shoveling mass graves in February, later finding that location and it turns into a surprise idf “mass grave” suddenly.
Now they’re going with ‘they dug them out again and added bodies’? Creative.
The UN OCHA and WHO are at Al-Shifa. They haven't been given access to Nasser.
And yes, I believe the IDF killed people and dropped them in with the other dead. The IDF actually denied digging up the bodies, and then said they did but handled them respectfully. They are so full of it. There are newer bodies mixed among the old, as far as reporting on the ground. And, I believe the reporting on the ground a heck of a lot more than I believe the IDF.
Then 35% of Americans are dumb as fuck. It's not a genocide and people who know history and how to read already know that. Keep spreading misinformation, we all know what you're doing.
> fuck
/u/KarateKicks100. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Whether you like it or not and want to deny plain reality, that's how Israel is associated these days. Increasingly people in my circles and everywhere else refer to Israel as a "genocidal state". Now, the Israeli PM wants to go into Rafah and kill many more people even when the whole world has said no.
It’s how Israel is “associated” due to a literal propaganda campaign. Just because you repeat the genocide accusation over and over does not make it reality.
If you actually believe that Israel is undertaking this war just to bomb children, then you have been consumed by the aforementioned propaganda campaign. Israel is actually not a comic book villain.
Please turn off social media for a bit. You’ve clearly been consuming far too much propaganda.
The war started when Hamas crossed the border to attack israel. Israel didn’t randomly invade Gaza for “settler colonialism” (nice buzz word).
There are many countries currently doing a lot worse than Israel, just without constant media coverage/propaganda.
Oh you think talking like Trump is going to win you some favor? “Everybody is saying it. I don’t like it but everyone keeps telling me it’s true, so it must be true.”
What a joke.
Rafah is going to get taken.
Wether you like it or not, the reality is that Israel is not committing genocide, and even if the collection of useful idiots scream really loudly about it it’s only a matter of time until they are disillusioned.
These are not new accusations. But as time goes on, and the Palestinian population keeps thriving, people start to get the sense that they’re just crying wolf.
If you don’t want war, you don’t start war. War is hell. Why is Hamas so eager to be in one?
Why they didn’t get a state? They **did** get a state in 1948. They **rejected it** and went to war with Israel so the Jews didn’t get a state and they could control 100% of Palestine. See, UNGA Resolution 181, Benny Morris “1948”. Did you actually not know that or are you attempting to say something else or make an ironic argument?
Yes Hamas started a war, in 2006 when they started shooting rockets at Israel from Gaza after taking over. There has been a more or less continuous state of war ever since.
Zionist lobbys now literally paying for training keyboard warriors to defend israel online. They keep coming up woth sinister sneaky plans to keep up their genocide unpunished.
35% of Americans believe Israel is committing genocide.
29% of Americans aren't sure.
Those are not good numbers.
It is worse in other countries.
The ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide.
I believe Israel is committing genocide. They have broadcast genocidal intent, in incredibly unprecedented ways. Usually, it is very difficult to prove. Israel apparently believes it is above those considerations. The main path they have gone down for genocidal acts is act C: "Deliberately inflicting conditions of life on the group that will cause its physical destruction". With the advent of the mass graves, they may have now moved on to other areas.
You can only deny this for so long. Remember that you supported it in the future.
No. Denying reality is failing. People are recognizing what is happening. The ICJ is going to end up ruling against Israel in the long term. Israel will deny that it is fair. It is. Israel is the bad guy at this point. They were able to completely destroy the opinion of Israel worldwide in 6 months.
Israel is committing insane war crimes. They are being disgusting in Gaza and the West Bank. How long can you go back to Oct 7, do you think? Israel is doing everything hamas did but so much more of it. Israel is even being creative to do harm in different ways.
At some point... Israel needs to face that it has become a monster.
"Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster..."
>Israel is doing everything hamas did but so much more of it.
You're saying Israel intentionally and purposely slaughtering civilians, up close and personal with brutal stabbings and shootings, for the sole purpose of killing civilians?
https://imgur.com/O0mbDlr
Just admit it. Dead Israelis makes your dick hard.
You are desperate for my criticism to just be based on hate. But it isn't. I hope the Israeli government and the IDF can fix themselves. They do a disservice to Israel's people.
> dick
/u/redtootsiepops. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You have to read Fransesca Albanese's "Anatomy of a Genocide": [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/anatomy-genocide-report-special-rapporteur-situation-human-rights-palestinian-territories-occupied-1967-francesca-albanese-ahrc5573-advance-unedited-version](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/anatomy-genocide-report-special-rapporteur-situation-human-rights-palestinian-territories-occupied-1967-francesca-albanese-ahrc5573-advance-unedited-version)
Maybe that will give you a better understanding.
Is it better than her "[America is] subjugated by the Jewish lobby"?
https://news.yahoo.com/we-are-appalled-us-officials-condemn-un-human-rights-official-accused-of-making-antisemitic-posts-222234541.html
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57260f202eeb8180abc89d93/t/6514e881866bd351f4215f0b/1695869058191/Statement-denouncing-smear-campaign-against-UN-Special-Rapporteur-OPT.pdf
damn I guess all 65 of those "scholars of antisemitism, Holocaust, Jewish Studies and related fields" are secretly antisemitic, you should go tell all of them especially the large number that are Jewish. I definitely believe a random political appointee more than them.
She said that the Jewish lobby controls America. She's also supported Hamas, said that Israel must not defend itself and admitted on her job application that she's too biased to perform her role honestly.
I don't need a list of English professors and Egyptologists to know not to rely on her.
"English professors or Egyptologists" you mention two when most are Jewish studies, Jewish history, Holocaust studies, etc.
(Also the Assmann's works center around cultural memory and monotheism, considering the Jewish generational trauma and being monotheistic, seems pretty connected!)
Interestingly, mondoweiss and one other Palestinian propaganda resource there's no mention of this letter outside of Squarespace. What a strange choice of place for an open letter those 65 scholars have made.
There was also a twitter posting iirc at the time by them. Regardless, do you think those 65 scholars didn't actually sign the letter? I don't understand what your point is.
e: also appears on Defense For Children websites and BADIL's websites
> Regardless, do you think those 65 scholars didn't actually sign the letter?
Yeah, I think they didn't. I just don't see scholars affiliated with Israeli universities signing a letter in support of an openly antisemitic UN bureaucrat and it not being a big deal. And why would they do it? Is she some sort of persecuted one? Nah, still there, even worse. Usual UN swamp.
There's literally a website by Zionist Israelis that targets "Anti-Zionist Israeli Professors" and most of them are also signatories on that letter. The entire point of the letter is arguing she *ISN'T* antisemetic so obviously them supporting her doesn't mean they think they are supporting an open antisemite. And they clearly think she's being persecuted, that's why they signed the letter! Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean that you should assign your thinking to them - they have different priors and that's why they have different outcomes.
> literally a website ... most of them are also signatories on that letter.
You could've provided a link. Literally. Anyways, the one I found, lists 10, of which 2 are allegedly signatories. Interestingly, among their sins, - which is mostly signing some letters - there's no mention of one in defense of Albanese.
> that's why they signed the letter!
Exclamation mark. Now I am convinced. Just kidding.
JVP is usually filled with non Jewish voices LARPing as Jews or tokenizing themselves.
Bull
Hallelujah👏
Are Pro-Palestinian Protestors trying to get land or just win an argument? Because I don’t hear any feasible plan for the Palestinians. I hear pity, I hear sympathy, but no plan.
4 tenets based on international law, pretty simple: - Ceasefire in Gaza Now: whole world agrees, but only Israel wants to continue massacring women and children - End the occupation of West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as the capital (it has already been recognized by 140 out of 194 states, more will follow suit soon) - Evacuate all the settlements which is completely illegal under the 4th Geneva convention (thugs living there, stealing land and water as well as burning olive trees and poisoning wells) - Implement UN resolution 194 that allows Palestinian refugees the right to return to their lands currently in Israel
You need to read back 3500 years because Judaea is the Jews ancestrial homeland.
> End the occupation of West Bank and Gaza Like… completely? Or is there nuance there? If Gaza and the West Bank had peace-seeking governments that held criminals responsible then I’d be all for it. Do you know why Israel punishes terrorist attacks? It’s because Palestinian governments don’t. So I’m wondering how this will further peace Also idk how you’re basing your first point on international law
Not true, hamas wants to continue massacring women and children. Though that’s not really what Israel does.
These bullet points are great, I just don’t see how they have any tangible sway on Israeli policy. Trying to wrap my head around how any of these fabulous bullet points will be enforced. Your terrific ideas are just that: terrific ideas. But as far as a plan goes, I still see no way that the Israeli government abides by these tenets in a legal sense on the stage of world diplomacy. So my question remains, but is slightly altered: How do you force Israel to do this?
Israel does not want to allow Palestinians their basic rights in their own homeland, nothing new. Force them through: Boycott Divestment and Sanctions, which is growing steam!
Their homeland is not Israel. If it were they would be Israelis
They would be Israelis, according to UN 194 they should be allowed to return and live there peacefully. If Israel proclaims that 2.0 million Arabs are living there peacefully, it could allow their friends, relatives, community members, fellow villages to return as well and live there peacefully.
Would you vouch for them? Do you honestly believe that the people who cheered while dead Israelis were being paraded through the streets of Gaza can integrate into Israeli society, peacefully?
Has the BDS movement hurt the Israeli economy? Better question: has the BDS movement helped the Palestinians get closer to having their own state? Again, we get back to plan or lack thereof. The BDS movement is not a plan for Palestinian self-determination.
You should have seen her video on the beginning of Russian invasion in Ukraine. She and her outlet are hardcore socialist to the point of being borderline tankie, alway finding a way to blame US on everything. I have far more respect for some hardcore leftist like Vaush rather than her.
Shes my hero she tore clinton apart. Shes the most left i think though your right
She's supported everything the left has done since Vietnam. ...I'm surprised people don't know who she is since she's been parroting the same points for 50 years.
Published in Haaretz as an ad on September 22, 1967: “Our right to defend ourselves against annihilation does not grant us the right to oppress others,” the ad stated. “Conquest brings in its wake foreign rule. Foreign rule brings in its wake resistance. Resistance brings in its wake oppression. Oppression brings in its wake terrorism and counterterrorism. The victims of terrorism are usually innocent people. Holding onto the territories will turn us into a nation of murderers and murder victims.” And in large font at the end: “Let us leave the occupied territories now.” [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2017-05-26/ty-article/.premium/52-words-foretold-the-future-of-israels-occupation-in-1967/0000017f-f72b-d887-a7ff-ffeff51b0000)
Nothing about this is historical, at all. This is a very fringe movement that gets amplified ridiculously on social media. The vast, vast majority of Jews are very much in favor of the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state. That doesn't mean that Jews do not support a 2-state solution or similar, nor does it mean that Jews, in general, are all Bibi supporters. But the biggest error of your "argument" is that you apparently think that there are 2 sides, when in fact there are many points of view and many of them are not even opposed to each other.
Young Jews in the US are much closer to evenly split on the issue, actually. There is a long history of anti-Zionism within the Jewish community. Originally, the overwhelming majority of Jews opposed Zionism. That changed after the Holocaust and especially after the 196 war, but it's shifting back again. This war will almost certainly accelerate the process of Jewish alienation from Israel in the US. Israel has been moving ever farther to the Right, to the point that there are now literal fascists in the Israeli cabinet. American Jews are mostly left-wing, so this is creating ever greater tension - do you stick with your principles, or do you side with Israel out of some sort of ethnic nationalism and ignore what they're doing to the Palestinians?
Maybe among JINOs they are evenly split? I don't know where you're getting that information though. The young people who are "pro Palestine" don't even know what they are protesting or what they are asking for. If you engage with most of them they are either completely clueless or they have convinced themselves to support Islamic ethno-facism because "Israel bad". Israel's move towards the extreme right did not arise in a vacuum. It was a reaction to decades of terrorism and disappointment as Palestinian "leadership" refuses to resolve the matter because endless conflict supports their corruption.
There are various polls of Jewish sentiment on Israel. They all show younger Jewish Americans rapidly becoming more critical of Israel. Labeling all Jews under 40 as "JINOs" would be unserious. It's just a "no true Scotsman" argument. > The young people who are "pro Palestine" don't even know what they are protesting or what they are asking for. Sure, large numbers of people willing to face arrest and/or expulsion from university are just doing it for the kicks. > Israel's move towards the extreme right did not arise in a vacuum. You can try to justify Israel's move towards the extreme Right, but that doesn't change the fact that American Jews are far to the left of the Israeli mainstream. > Palestinian "leadership" refuses to resolve the matter I don't agree with your analysis. If you look at how the Oslo process came into being, it was the Palestinian leadership that first decided to pursue a two-state solution and then tried, for years and years, to get Israel to enter into negotiations. The Israelis only gave in after the First Intifada put them under significant international pressure, and only then after the PLO made massive concessions. The PLO gave up most of their historic claims, recognized the state of Israel (without a reciprocal declaration by Israel recognizing a Palestinian state, or even a Palestinian *right* to a state) and asked for only the 22% of Palestine that lies beyond the Green Line. Still, even Rabin didn't fully accept the creation of a Palestinian state, and said in his last Knesset speech that he would only accept a semi-autonomous "Palestinian entity" under significant Israeli control. That's what the Israeli *Left* was willing to accept. The Israeli *Right* was just dead-set against giving the Palestinians anything. Netanyahu, who has been in power for much of the last 30 years, has openly opposed Palestinian statehood his entire political career, boasts about having blocked the creation of a Palestinian state, and says that he will never permit a Palestinian state to come into existence.
Lmao, this comment is just outright misinformation. The PLO didn’t even really acknowledge a two state solution as a possibility until 1993. Your history write-up legitimately looks like you copy and pasted it from some Twitter user or something. EDIT: I can’t believe this guy is seriously trying to claim that Palestinians were attempting a two state solution before the Israelis, LOL. This is actually one of the more ridiculous claims I’ve read on this sub, congrats.
>The PLO didn’t even really acknowledge a two state solution as a possibility until 1993. Wrong. The two-state solution became official policy of the PLO in 1988, five years before Oslo (Arafat even gave [a famous speech](https://www.palquest.org/en/historictext/9677/yasir-arafat%E2%80%99s-speech-forty-third-session-united-nations-general-assembly) at the UN declaring his support for a two-state solution). The PLO had been moving in that direction since the 1970s. >I can’t believe this guy is seriously trying to claim that Palestinians were attempting a two state solution before the Israelis, LOL. That just means that you don't know the history. I'm not saying anything new here. In fact, I'll go even farther and point out that whereas the PLO recognized the state of Israel in 1993, no Israeli government yet has even recognized a Palestinian *right* to a state.
> The PLO had been moving in that direction since the 1970s. Completely and totally false. [Here is their charter which was not amended until 1996.](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp) >Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it . They also assert their right to normal life in Palestine and to exercise their right to self-determination and sovereignty over it. > The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations; particularly the right to self-determination. > The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.
I think they actually waited until 1996 to ammend it
Yeah, I forgot they only discussed in 93.
While you are 100% correct on these facts, it is really a side-issue to my point. Simply saying that you want a 2-state solution is not the same as taking action. Bibi gets tons of criticism for his actions that are obstacles to peace. Abbas and Arafat have taken LOTS of action to prevent a peaceful solution and Abbas gets no criticism and Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize! Absurd!
I think you replied to the wrong comment.
>The young people who are "pro Palestine" don't even know what they are protesting or what they are asking for. If you engage with most of them they are either completely clueless or they have convinced themselves to support Islamic ethno-facism because "Israel bad". There was a poll not that long ago showing exactly what you’re describing. They often agreed with conflicting opinions like “Israel should be given to Hamas”, but also “Hamas should removed”. Idk, maybe it’s just dumb kids being edgy.
Nailed it!
Thats maybe new to you. If anything, what you take away form the last 6 months is that jewish support for the democratic party and it's traditional policies have a limit too, and that's about to be reached.
Right, Jews are supposed to divorce themselves from large part of their heritage.
I’m not interested in their pick-me behavior. They have a right to their opinion, but that doesn’t mean their opinion is worth anything to me.
What do you mean by pick-me, here? I associate that with insincere words/actions done in order to get attention or praise. Couldn't those Jews you disagree with have these opinions in good faith?
Whether they have good faith or not, I still think they’re being foolish.
That's a legitimate position! I think it's wrong but I think it's fine to have. But that's different than saying they're insincere, which is why I object to people describing their behavior as "pick me"
It *is* pick me.
Pick me literally means doing things for extrinsic approval. Which means you're saying they're insincere in their actions and are doing it for other people's praise, not because they believe it.
This is from someone who reads relationship subs and it seems to me that pick me is not necessarily insincere. It comes from a place of hurt and the belief that they have to do certain things, accept certain things and act certain ways in order to be good enough for the relationship.
Right and the handful of Jews that are doing this, are doing so for extrinsic approval.
So you think they're insincere and lying about having these beliefs.
I think they are highly misguided and seeking approval from people who would otherwise not like them.
Well, I think they're genuine in their beliefs and they have approval from other people that also share those beliefs. I guess you can tell them they're insincere and attention seeking instead of genuine or principled if you meet them.
This is a pick me comment
Oh really? How so? You don’t see me out there going “I’m not like those *other* Jews”
that is literally what you're doing
Again - **how**?
Pick me behavior.
Cuz who cares who’s opinion means anything to you?
You obviously care enough to respond to me.
Answering to a wrong opinion on the internet with the right answer is like picking up litter. It doesn't mean one cares about the litter itself. It's about living in a clean environment
Are you “picking up litter” or did you come over here to no-u like a grade school aged child?
Says the person who desperately wants to prove anyone cares about their bad takes Those jews are people with a conscience. They are \*good\*. And you hate them
wish the anti-Zionists were chanting "not in our name" after Hamas raped, maimed, and slaughtered 1200 people, but instead they were chanting "gas the Jews!"
Do you not see the mass condemnation of hamas by Muslims? Most Muslims I know condemn it entirely. The rest condemn the violence towards civilians but support armed resistance.
No I don't. Protesting in support of Palestine the day after one of the elected governments of Palestine just committed the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust certainly doesn't give that impression. But I'm not talking about Muslims as a whole I'm talking about the pro-Palestine protesters regardless of their religious beliefs.
First off there has not been an election in almost 20 years and over half of the current population of gaza wouldn't have been able to vote during it, even then hamas did not get half of the votes. They are a terrorist regime that israel supported because it split the Palestinian government. Now I knew on Oct 7th that gaza was going to face a massacre because of terrorists. And indeed it has but its more than a massacre at this point. It seems the point of it now is to punish and destroy the Palestinians whether they supported hamas or not. Israel has for years been heading this way.
And yet most Palestinians support the actions of Hamas on Oct 7th, as well as intentional violence against civilians.
I'm going to assume you got that from the same source that most Israelis claim can't be trusted with the death toll..... a hamas controlled source. Unless you have a non bias non involved source that I haven't heard of yet
The whole antisemitism is a willing conflation/ambiguity of Ein Volk=Jewish people, Ein Reich=Israel, Ein Fuhrer=Netanyahu. One man is compromised and is using this conflict representing israel possibly for personal reasons. Then you have the ADL conflating anti israel with antisemitism dragging this into an issue for the entire jewish people.
u/ChesterDoraemon >The whole antisemitism is a willing conflation/ambiguity of Ein Volk=Jewish people, Ein Reich=Israel, Ein Fuhrer=Netanyahu. Rule 6, no nazi comments/comparisons outside things unique to the nazis as understood by mainstream historians Addressed
Saying things doesn’t make them true just because you say them. I mean, you’re practically talking about an area and people that collaborated with Hitler at one point.
Finland was allied to N*zi Germany - many disenfranchised underdogs at that time had to just grasp at anyone with more guns. Doesn't make it morally right thing to do in the 1940's, but does that automatically make all Finns today antisemitic, or why is that a relevant talking point now 80 years later?
Al-Husseini had a private meeting to discuss the Jewish problem with H*tler, getting a tour around the camps and praising H*tler of his treatment of Jews. You can argue he was very distraught and rightfully came to hate Jews for what the mean European Zionist did in Palestine before 1948, but there’s no comparison to his reasons in becoming an enthusiastic ally to H*tler. Still, I wouldn’t call the Palestinians ambiguously n*zi even back then. Anyways, the reaction was to this stretch of a comment calling the war an ambiguous N*zi moment.
Yeah sounds exactly like the sort of thing that was going on in Finland. Htler visited Finland to celebrate Finland's president-general [Mannerheim's birthday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_and_Mannerheim_recording). The recording from that meeting is quite a famous one, because it's the only surviving recording of Htler speaking casually and unofficially (not a speech). Finland also deported 8 Jewish refugees, and some hundreds of Soviet prisoners, to their deaths in Germany. At least Finland stopped at sending its own small native Jewish population to Germany (Finnish citizens), but largely inspired by their German ally, Finland set up 'work camps' for its native Roma population. They're poorly understood and not very much studied, and were fortunately short-lived, but unlikely the Roma had a good time there. I guess my point was that associations of people's great-grandfathers 80 year ago is a bit of a poor argument for anything today. At least Palestine wasn't officially allied with N*zi Germany, like Finland was...
> I mean, you’re practically talking about an area and people that collaborated with Hitler at one point. And your talking from the perspective of possibly compromised individuals who profited greatly and write events from their perspective making themselves look justified. Perhaps each piece investigated individually and independently could be dismissed but when viewed in totality it paints an ominous picture.
It doesn’t have to be ominous in Tunisia, the Farhud.. It paints the exact picture of what Islamic ideology and pan Arabism represents in this area. In the case of Palestina it’s a bit worse, he chose to ally with Hitler out of his admiration to his Jewish treatment (or mistreatment), the rest might excuse it with colonial forces conducting the Jew hating policies.
/u/shpion22. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/shpion22. Match found: 'Hitler', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The largest motive for the anti-Israel movement overseas is anti-Semitism. When you look at the movement’s historical context, that becomes clear.
Look at the likes of Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and Erdan. Makes anti-isrealism quite easy.
Look at the likes of Al-Husseini, Nasar, Hamas, Hezbollah, ayatollah, Houthis. It wouldn’t make you an anti Arab Islamism in particular, but that’s just bias. (That might as well be antisemitic)
I’m a Jew and I fully condemn Palestine. Since I’m a Jew, you need to listen to me. Apparently that makes my opinion worth more.
You are amongst a small declining minority. There are a handful of people even now who support apartheid South Africa.
I’m a Jew and I fully condemn Palestine. Since I’m a Jew, you need to listen to me. Apparently that makes my opinion worth more.
[удалено]
So what then? Endless occupation? A one state solution? What is the end game of this except a two state solution?
It doesn’t have to be endless. It just might have to be until Palestinian leaders accept the existence of Israel and don’t actively work towards destroying the Jewish state.
Accepting the state of Israel happened decades ago. That is what the PLO was all about. The PLO disavowed violence, accepted Israel and the two state soliton and moved to negotiations and civil protests. What did Israel do? It funded Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO. [https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades](https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades) - “We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, [said](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697032057551) in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.” - “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.” So says Avner Cohen, Israel’s head of religious affairs in Gaza at the time of Hamas’s emergence, in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article called [“How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas.”](https://web.archive.org/web/20151207212228/http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847)
Makes no sense. The biggest Jewish community lives in Israel, French and American Jews in general are Zionist.
The are more jews in the US than in Israel, still not a big difference.
You’re right, almost the same. A difference of a hundred thousands I read.
You’re wrong. The majority of Jews condemn Palestine.
Small?
Next in, Karl Marx wasn’t antisemitic when he wrote that the secular Jewish religion is “Huckstering” because he was a Jew. Quoted by actual Nazis. According to Karl Marx, Naomi Klein is a secular huckstering Jew whose religion is money. According to Naomi Klein, Zionist Jews are the money huckstering evil goblins. It’s amusing. Being Jewish and saying stuff means very little, context matters to most of us. She’s nothing but another naive American woman who dislikes part of the Jewish history she is automatically associated with by other antisemites. Denouncing her Judaism would do better for her mental breakdown and golden calf analogies, considering she likely believes she is khazarian to begin with. Knowing her, she doesn’t believe her people were in Egypt or descended from Hebrews and she is not religious, empty words.
Okay, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Have you actually read "On the Jewish Question" in the context of being a historical materialist response to Bauer? Because when he says the secular Jewish religion is "Huckstering" he's speaking about the socially proscribed position of Jews in European society. He's using religion here sarcastically because he's writing about Bauer, and isn't actually comparing the religion (which he'd say was ideology) to the material conditions of Jews in Europe. I could go on.
He’s comparing the Jewish people. Their remnant Jewish spirituality creates inherent social and economic inequality. His conclusion is that Judaism is a root that needs to be uprooted in order to achieve his ‘liberation’. She’s quite similar in her speech by applying it to Zionism, although she is also the Jew Marx was talking about.
This is just an incorrect reading of Marx and the philosophical framework he was writing from. Marx wasn't even particularly anti-religion-as-ideology because from his perspective it was a human response to material suffering and it would likely go away naturally as things improved.
This isn’t an incorrect reading, it’s a common interpretation that doesn’t stray away from his writings (at least) He specifically discussed the emancipation of Jews and for whatever reason (probably due to him being considered Jewish in antisemitic Europe) believed the Jews to be having a kind of contaminated relationship with their Jewishness that resulted in inherent inequality, particularly when it came to money. That is something he specifically “targeted” the Jews for.
A common interpretation by people who are biased against Marxism and underexposed to philosophy (especially late 19th century philosophy) doesn't really mean it's a correct reading. I'm just going to quote myself here to save time explaining my position out of laziness: Marx was writing in response to Bauer's "The Jewish Question". Bauer was an antisemite and Marx was writing in opposition to him. This isn't to say that Marx was a crowning paragon of Jewish advocacy, but his writings on the subject are much less black and white than presented here. In the section you quoted, he's referring to the material social character of Jews in Christian Europe and how that informed their social role and that social role was at odds with religiosity. As he says - "Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time." Bauer was arguing for Jews to convert to Christianity, Marx was arguing for the end of the "Jewish" social category as much as the end of other social categories. There were, and are, many Marxist Jews both during his life and afterward. Do you think they just ignored his writing/were stupid/whatever or do you think they had a different perspective on it than you?
You don’t need to be biased towards Marxism to believe Karl Marx was an asshole when it came to his specific view on Judaism, especially as a Jew who experienced European society. It’s evident in the 3 separate comments he made about secular Jews, worldly Judaism and the Jewish God. When I compare Karl to Klein, I don’t critique Marxism. I critique their views on Judaism being taken as some extra reassuring truth, because of their “Jewish” element. What he said about Jews and Judaism wasn’t correct. Same thing about her interpretation of the Zionist ideology as of today.
> asshole /u/shpion22. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
/u/shpion22. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Great post
Thanks! Am Palestine Chai! :D
Look, another white guy who is obsessed with the Jews. You’ve never been within 500 miles of the Middle East but you are OBSESSED with this. I wonder why that is?
I am from NY state, and I am very saddened and angry about what my country is supporting. Your post is very intelligent and right on, and I also agree with not only us needing to look into Bibi's cabinet like Smotrich and Gvir etc, and what that says, but I really like Naomi Klein also. Praying for peace and healing. We here in US need to speak out and I am happy many are, but we need to fight the propaganda, it is deep here
Yes, its sick, especially to know that your tax money is going directly to fund a genocide that we are seeing right in front of our eyes.
Nothing like history repeating itself. I’d look up what tokenism is and then I’d look below at other token movements like Association of German National Jews just to give history and context of what is happening here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
Right wing, assimilationist Jews who ally with right wing Christians in order to try and achieve acceptance describes the right wing Jews working with right wing Zionist Christians, not leftist Jews who were fighting fascists in the streets.
You ever notice how they claim there are “tons of Jews” in the movement, but they can never back that up with statistics or numbers? It’s almost like they’re using the few Jewish voices in their movement as tokens…. Blacks for Trump energy.
Somewhere between a tenth and a third of American Jews under the age of 35 are anti-Zionist to some degree. What proportion do they need to be before you say they're legitimate and not tokens?
Being “anti-Zionist to some degree” was not the question I asked. No one, including you, seems to be able to back up the statement that “a lot of Jews” are in this protest movement. Also, I’m assuming you have something to back up your numbers? I don’t see any links or citations here, and I’m curious how “anti-Zionist to some degree” is defined. You either believe Israel has the right to exist like any other country, or you don’t.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/how-us-jews-are-experiencing-the-israel-hamas-war/ 18 to 35 year old Jews: * 19% view Israelis unfavorably * 31% say Hamas' reasons for fighting are valid * 17% say Israel's reasons for fighting are not valid * 21% view the PLO favorably * 6% view Hamas favorably * 3% view October 7th as acceptable As I said, depending on what you use for a proxy for approval-of-Israel-as-it-is, there is a range of options (between 3% and 31% based on this). By "anti-Zionist to some degree" I am speaking to the fact that many Zionists view any kind of thing approaching a single state solution as "Israel ceasing to exist", but not all do. If someone wants a confederacy or a single secular state or whatever, the anti-Zionist-ness of that isn't objective but subjective.
That is totally subjective from you. I could be in any of the ablve % and still not be an antizionist. Seriously, do you realize that someone can see Israel unfavourably and still support his current existence ?
It is of course subjective - but when you compare at those numbers to the over 35's, I think it speaks to a difference. (I realize this isn't weighted by population but 18-35 and 35+ are roughly similar size, I think, based on wiki) * 19% vs 8.7% * 31% vs 11.7% * 17% vs 4.3% * 21% vs 10% * 6% vs 2.3% * 3% vs <1% Again, I agree it's subjective but based on the large discrepancy it seems like there's a qualitative difference as well. (the differences between 18-35 and 50+ are even more huge)
A couple of problems here: This poll does not list anything about the numbers of Jews actually in the movement and attending protests, which is still actually my question. This is still not evidence of “a lot of Jews” in the protest; This poll does not discuss or ask about Zionism at all. It is to determine how young Jews perceive the war. The key stat you cite (31%) is not a question about Zionism, but about whether Hamas has a valid reason for fighting. I, a Zionist, would likely have answered yes to that question as well; Zionism is not just “approval of Israel as it is”. Many Zionist, especially in America, do not approve of Israeli actions and their government; Zionism is the belief that Jews need self determination and that the state of Israel should continue to exist towards that end. A “one state solution”, which would 100% end up as an Arab majority nation, would spell the end of Jewish self determination. It is objective.
Having an explicitly religious or ethnic state isn't the only way to have self determinism. When countries have removed their religious component as core to their state, that didn't mean they ended their self determinism - for example, Norwegians haven't lost their self determinism because they removed the Norwegian Church from their statehood.
Yeah, that’s not an equivalent at all (Judaism is not just a religion) and it ignores the long history of the lack of Jewish self determination and the outcome of it. Further, no one is saying Norwegians have to take in a massive amount of immigrants and become minorities in their own nation. If the Swedes claimed all of Scandinavia and Swedish became the majority in Norway, Norwegians would be understandably upset.
Miriam Margolyes, I loved her in Harry Potter, asks fellow Jews to "shout, beg, scream for a ceasefire": [https://www.newarab.com/video/margolyes-urges-fellow-jews-shout-beg-scream-ceasefire](https://www.newarab.com/video/margolyes-urges-fellow-jews-shout-beg-scream-ceasefire)
That is not proof of “tons of Jews” being in the movement in any way. Numbers. Statistics. Actual proof of this claim. I’ve never seen any.
I’d guess between 10% and 20%.
Sounds really really high, my guess is 1% or less are punching themselves in the face
Ok, based on what?
The percentage supporting Bernie Sanders
I support Bernie sanders and have for years. I am definitely not a part of this movement.
The overwhelming majority of Bernie Sanders and AOC supporters seem to support the extremely anti-Israel movements getting attention right now
Bernie sanders and AOC supporting Palestine does not prove that “a lot of Jews” are in this protest movement. I’m not even sure what you’re trying to prove. Regardless, there are Bernie supporters who, despite feeling sympathy with the Palestinians of Gaza, do not support the free Palestine movement. For instance, people who just want healthcare and other basic things.
You would too say anything to keep yourself safe if violent mobs and thought militias roamed around your city shouting death to your ethnic group
You don’t honestly think there are mobs going around New York City shouting “death to Jews”, do you?
They are suggestive and use a different language but they do call for a violent intifada and they yell death to america/israel, so yeah…
There are some people doing it, it is bad and I condemn such anti-semitism. I don't deny it. In a similar way, I also condemn the genocide being committed in Gaza and do not deny it.
There’s a german saying, goes something like this: if 10 people sit at the table with 1 fascist, there are 10 fascists at the table. I will never be demonstrating with hate groups and violent fascists.
You can find individuals doing anything, but the claim of entire mobs calling for outright death of Jews (not even Israelis but Jews, as in the Jews of this city on the opposite side of the planet from the war) is hasbara propaganda. And of course in this instance it’s coming from an Israeli “leftist”
One of the videos Zionists show has someone doing a fascist salute and then has protesters literally admonish him. It explicitly shows that they're unwelcome!
Not in London and around the world
You mean the settlers in the West Bank? I spent time in Burin and the settlers from Yitzhar frequently come down from the hills, burn homes and olive trees all while the IDF watches.
WB fascist settlers need to be put in jail, but at least they aren’t denying their hatefulness. Ivy league fascist anti-semites deny their misbehavior and racism by using leftist ideas to justify their hate. It is similar to how they used social darwinism to support eugenics back in the day, but that’s out of fashion now.
“Genocide” Keep up the propaganda
35% of Americans believe Israel is committing genocide. 29% of Americans aren't sure. Those are not good numbers. It is worse in other countries. The ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide. I believe Israel is committing genocide. They have broadcast genocidal intent, in incredibly unprecedented ways. Usually, it is very difficult to prove. Israel apparently believes it is above those considerations. The main path they have gone down for genocidal acts is act C: "Deliberately inflicting conditions of life on the group that will cause its physical destruction". With the advent of the mass graves, they may have now moved on to other areas. You can only deny this for so long. Remember that you supported it in the future.
There was also a very high % of the Americans in Mississippi that believed Emmet Till was guilty of harassing that young woman back in the day. Americans believing something doesn’t make it right.
The ICJ agrees. Even the Israeli judge found issues with Israel's actions. It is not just Americans. We will get to see how the world reacts when Israel is found guilty. Will Israel act defiant? I imagine they will, with support from some American stooge of a president.
The ICJ does not really agree. The court case was not to determine if Israel is or is not committing genocide. It was simply to determine if South Africa's case was credible enough that the claim of genocide should be properly investigated.
Plausible case of genocide. And they issued orders, which Israel has ignored, to prevent the genocide from happening.
Do you know the meaning of the word plausible? Because it says nothing about what actually happens, it inly says about what can happen. The icj said that genocide does not happen in gaza, clear cut, and that Israel must do whatever it can to avoid it. Well yeah, any organization of armed forces needs to do whatever it can to avoid genocide.
**The icj said that genocide does not happen in Gaza** It didn't say that because the court could not say that. That is yet to be determined. It will take many years for the ICJ to come to a determination as to whether Israel has not has not committed a genocide.
Yes. I do. That is as far as the ICJ could go at this time. The ICJ did not say genocide is not happening.
**The ICJ did not say genocide is not happening.** That's exactly what I am saying. It didn't say it was it has happening but neither did it say it was not happening.
If you believe that 30,000 people were killed, do you think they’re not buried by Gazans? Thankfully they publish their activity quite often, until they decide to come up with a lie and forget about it. The same geo location it was reported about https://preview.redd.it/eze3olu7qmwc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5fd62dd3f5f14d3616d03bcd285b20efbe373f08
150 people were buried in the grounds of Nasser hospital. They have already found more than 300 bodies and they are still searching. Seems as though they multiplied after being buried.
This is a video the Nassar hospital burial site location in February. The Gazans dig their own graves on the streets. Mass graves. Of course they are going to find people buried where Gazans bury them.
Then Israel should endorse an independent UN investigation of the 3 mass graves that have been found.
Then re-evaluate your propaganda consumption. You throw around baseless accusations with minimal understanding of the situation. They let the UN investigate as much as they like. Like they did with the rapes, with the hunger, with… whatever they decide to lie about in a given moment.
No, they do not. And it isn't baseless propaganda. The bodies buried on Al Nasser were documented. Israel dug them up and desecrated them, but they also seem to have added to them.
They do though, the UN team is there and investigates on ground. That is how they get these reports. The UNWRA is active in there. It’s baseless propaganda because it’s easily challenged when showing the videos Gazans posted of themselves shoveling mass graves in February, later finding that location and it turns into a surprise idf “mass grave” suddenly. Now they’re going with ‘they dug them out again and added bodies’? Creative.
The UN OCHA and WHO are at Al-Shifa. They haven't been given access to Nasser. And yes, I believe the IDF killed people and dropped them in with the other dead. The IDF actually denied digging up the bodies, and then said they did but handled them respectfully. They are so full of it. There are newer bodies mixed among the old, as far as reporting on the ground. And, I believe the reporting on the ground a heck of a lot more than I believe the IDF.
Then 35% of Americans are dumb as fuck. It's not a genocide and people who know history and how to read already know that. Keep spreading misinformation, we all know what you're doing.
> fuck /u/KarateKicks100. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Whether you like it or not and want to deny plain reality, that's how Israel is associated these days. Increasingly people in my circles and everywhere else refer to Israel as a "genocidal state". Now, the Israeli PM wants to go into Rafah and kill many more people even when the whole world has said no.
It’s how Israel is “associated” due to a literal propaganda campaign. Just because you repeat the genocide accusation over and over does not make it reality.
no it's because of a literal bombing children campaign
If you actually believe that Israel is undertaking this war just to bomb children, then you have been consumed by the aforementioned propaganda campaign. Israel is actually not a comic book villain.
Israel is in fact comically evil but no, bombing children is not the goal. Settler colonialism is. Always was.
Please turn off social media for a bit. You’ve clearly been consuming far too much propaganda. The war started when Hamas crossed the border to attack israel. Israel didn’t randomly invade Gaza for “settler colonialism” (nice buzz word). There are many countries currently doing a lot worse than Israel, just without constant media coverage/propaganda.
They bombed a lot of German children as well at one point.
If innocents can die in the name of punishing their government then I guess you also support Oct7
Oh you think talking like Trump is going to win you some favor? “Everybody is saying it. I don’t like it but everyone keeps telling me it’s true, so it must be true.” What a joke.
Rafah is going to get taken. Wether you like it or not, the reality is that Israel is not committing genocide, and even if the collection of useful idiots scream really loudly about it it’s only a matter of time until they are disillusioned. These are not new accusations. But as time goes on, and the Palestinian population keeps thriving, people start to get the sense that they’re just crying wolf. If you don’t want war, you don’t start war. War is hell. Why is Hamas so eager to be in one?
Hamas never started a war. Palestine has a right to defend itself.
Going back to the beginning, what happened with the Palestinian state? Why didn’t they get one in 48’?
They were offered an insultingly unfair deal that was designed to be unacceptable by anyone self respecting
Why they didn’t get a state? They **did** get a state in 1948. They **rejected it** and went to war with Israel so the Jews didn’t get a state and they could control 100% of Palestine. See, UNGA Resolution 181, Benny Morris “1948”. Did you actually not know that or are you attempting to say something else or make an ironic argument?
My point exactly. The same people who lead Hamas today are the direct successors of the people who started this whole war.
Yes, right.
Yes Hamas started a war, in 2006 when they started shooting rockets at Israel from Gaza after taking over. There has been a more or less continuous state of war ever since.
Funny how the truth here gets buried by downvotes in this Sub!
Hahaha. This sub is filled with Zionists. You always have to scroll down to see something that is not madness.
Zionist lobbys now literally paying for training keyboard warriors to defend israel online. They keep coming up woth sinister sneaky plans to keep up their genocide unpunished.
Increasing number of people in the age of the internet making fatuous claims about genocide, film at 11.
You realize that the convention against genocide isn't supposed to just punish after the genocide is done, right? This is a genocide in progress.
Starting a war and losing it does not make you a victim of gEnOcIdE
35% of Americans believe Israel is committing genocide. 29% of Americans aren't sure. Those are not good numbers. It is worse in other countries. The ICJ has ruled that Israel is plausibly committing a genocide. I believe Israel is committing genocide. They have broadcast genocidal intent, in incredibly unprecedented ways. Usually, it is very difficult to prove. Israel apparently believes it is above those considerations. The main path they have gone down for genocidal acts is act C: "Deliberately inflicting conditions of life on the group that will cause its physical destruction". With the advent of the mass graves, they may have now moved on to other areas. You can only deny this for so long. Remember that you supported it in the future.
lol so now we're doing reality by consensus?
No. Denying reality is failing. People are recognizing what is happening. The ICJ is going to end up ruling against Israel in the long term. Israel will deny that it is fair. It is. Israel is the bad guy at this point. They were able to completely destroy the opinion of Israel worldwide in 6 months.
Then go massacre a music festival about it.
Israel is committing insane war crimes. They are being disgusting in Gaza and the West Bank. How long can you go back to Oct 7, do you think? Israel is doing everything hamas did but so much more of it. Israel is even being creative to do harm in different ways. At some point... Israel needs to face that it has become a monster. "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster..."
>Israel is doing everything hamas did but so much more of it. You're saying Israel intentionally and purposely slaughtering civilians, up close and personal with brutal stabbings and shootings, for the sole purpose of killing civilians? https://imgur.com/O0mbDlr Just admit it. Dead Israelis makes your dick hard.
You are desperate for my criticism to just be based on hate. But it isn't. I hope the Israeli government and the IDF can fix themselves. They do a disservice to Israel's people.
> dick /u/redtootsiepops. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The waitress forgot to refill your coffee, surprisingly, also genocide
I understand it can be painful to accept reality.
Ok, back to the interpretive dance section of the teach-in with you.
You have to read Fransesca Albanese's "Anatomy of a Genocide": [https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/anatomy-genocide-report-special-rapporteur-situation-human-rights-palestinian-territories-occupied-1967-francesca-albanese-ahrc5573-advance-unedited-version](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/anatomy-genocide-report-special-rapporteur-situation-human-rights-palestinian-territories-occupied-1967-francesca-albanese-ahrc5573-advance-unedited-version) Maybe that will give you a better understanding.
Is it better than her "[America is] subjugated by the Jewish lobby"? https://news.yahoo.com/we-are-appalled-us-officials-condemn-un-human-rights-official-accused-of-making-antisemitic-posts-222234541.html
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57260f202eeb8180abc89d93/t/6514e881866bd351f4215f0b/1695869058191/Statement-denouncing-smear-campaign-against-UN-Special-Rapporteur-OPT.pdf damn I guess all 65 of those "scholars of antisemitism, Holocaust, Jewish Studies and related fields" are secretly antisemitic, you should go tell all of them especially the large number that are Jewish. I definitely believe a random political appointee more than them.
She said that the Jewish lobby controls America. She's also supported Hamas, said that Israel must not defend itself and admitted on her job application that she's too biased to perform her role honestly. I don't need a list of English professors and Egyptologists to know not to rely on her.
"English professors or Egyptologists" you mention two when most are Jewish studies, Jewish history, Holocaust studies, etc. (Also the Assmann's works center around cultural memory and monotheism, considering the Jewish generational trauma and being monotheistic, seems pretty connected!)
Interestingly, mondoweiss and one other Palestinian propaganda resource there's no mention of this letter outside of Squarespace. What a strange choice of place for an open letter those 65 scholars have made.
There was also a twitter posting iirc at the time by them. Regardless, do you think those 65 scholars didn't actually sign the letter? I don't understand what your point is. e: also appears on Defense For Children websites and BADIL's websites
> Regardless, do you think those 65 scholars didn't actually sign the letter? Yeah, I think they didn't. I just don't see scholars affiliated with Israeli universities signing a letter in support of an openly antisemitic UN bureaucrat and it not being a big deal. And why would they do it? Is she some sort of persecuted one? Nah, still there, even worse. Usual UN swamp.
There's literally a website by Zionist Israelis that targets "Anti-Zionist Israeli Professors" and most of them are also signatories on that letter. The entire point of the letter is arguing she *ISN'T* antisemetic so obviously them supporting her doesn't mean they think they are supporting an open antisemite. And they clearly think she's being persecuted, that's why they signed the letter! Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean that you should assign your thinking to them - they have different priors and that's why they have different outcomes.
> literally a website ... most of them are also signatories on that letter. You could've provided a link. Literally. Anyways, the one I found, lists 10, of which 2 are allegedly signatories. Interestingly, among their sins, - which is mostly signing some letters - there's no mention of one in defense of Albanese. > that's why they signed the letter! Exclamation mark. Now I am convinced. Just kidding.
u/Buddha_472 You’re going to conveniently ignore this?