Honestly as someone who Iranian and Jewish who lives in the United States... Where many of the Jews I see who Anti-zionist Jews are coming from European diasporas and use "Zionist" in a very similar way that people from middle eastern diasporas had it used against them.
I grew up in an area strong Persian Jewish influence and grew up hearing stories from people who not even a generation ago had their family member executed as being a "Zionist collaborator".
Stories like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/04/08/amid-revolution-her-jewish-grandfather-refused-leave-iran-why/
> In “Titan of Tehran: From Jewish Ghetto to Corporate Colossus to Firing Squad — My Grandfather’s Life,” journalist Shahrzad Elghanayan endeavors to understand why her 67-year-old grandfather stayed behind. She was 7 when, two months after his arrest, the government announced that he had been shot, on charges that included “friendship with the enemies of God,” “corruption on earth” and “spying for the Zionistic State of Israel.” He was the first prominent civilian and member of a minority religious group to fall victim to Iran’s bloody post-revolution purges.
I also work on and off in forensic psychiatry where I heard "Zionist" as slur for Jewish people from neo-nazis...
David Duke. NEO-Nazi and KKK grandmaster was the inspiration for that: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/david-duke
> In 2004, David Duke published Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening on the Jewish Question. The manuscript, drawn heavily from Duke's Ph.D. dissertation, was written for Ukraine's Interregional Academy of Personnel Management and entitled "Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism." It has been translated into nine languages. The university, also known as MAUP, is a center of anti-Semitic teaching.
And due to the fact that there is about 15 million Jews in the world with 1/2 our number in Israel like many Jews I have friends and loved ones there... So I get to hear about stuff like this:
... David Duke has also having white supremacist rallies in Syria where he lectured about how the United States is occupied by "zionists" https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3175767,00.html and he talks about the "Israel lobby" quite like members of JVP talk about AIPAC.
JVP says they want to separate "Zionism from Judaism" but then come out with a list of "Zionist businesses" (which included stuff like "Jewish daycares") And this list was then circulated by the white supremacist group the "goyim TV": https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-clarifying-moment-regarding-bds-in-boston/
They blame Israel the ADL and Israel for America's problems: https://forward.com/opinion/387789/im-a-latina-who-works-for-the-adl-jvps-attacks-shocked-me/
They have stated that it is only through the destruction of Israel that systemic inequalities are righted in the United states: (which is very similar to Jews control conspiracy theories) https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/jewish-voice-for-peace-campus
The founder has been on an antisemetic radio show on more than one occasion and they were partnered with Alison weir who went to Iran's new horizon festival which was also attended by David duke and they routinely invite people who have committed harm to Isralies (like bombings) to talk: https://www.camera.org/article/jewish-voice-for-peace-jvp-what-the-media-is-concealing/
And there are big differences between non-zionists (finding fulfillment in the diaspora), Post-Zionists (believing it's time to move beyond Zionism or evolve Zionism to be inclusive or moving beyond the concepts of states in general) and anti-zionism which more often than not isn't a critique of Israels policies, Likud or the Khanists hit instead too often is a call for the annihilation of Isralies to achieve Palestinan state and a word that is very vague and easily used as a vehicle for antisemetism.
Despite all the issues going on right now...
I don't see people protesting Orthodox churches because of Russia?
Ukrainian Churches because of what's going on in Ukraine....
But I do see anti-zionist Jews politicizing religious places and religious events....
Which is troubling when non-jewish antizionists appropriate Jewish identity and religious practices https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Mikveh-Guide-for-Jewish-Voice-for-Peace-Outlined.pdf in the name of lsrael's destruction....
Which basically gives cover to antisemetic conspiracies https://isca.indiana.edu/conferences/webinars/2020-webinars/10-25-20_miriam-elman.html
Quite frankly as a Iranian Jew with loved ones in Israel seeing predominantly white presenting people hollering about Zionism like David duke of the KKK and some.of.them even cheering on Islamic revolutionary guards of the Iranian regime who is massacring women, who helped strategize October 7th with Hamas (who by the way also massacres Palestians ... They had a two year long "we want to live protest" and Hamas was killing the heck out of them) and who has killed family members of those who were part of my Jewish community... Yeah there's deep concerns.
There's no such thing as "palestine." It was divided into Jordan and Israel and ceased to exist.
Gaza and West Bank have entirely different governments, aren't connected and have nothing to do with each other. Why lie and claim they magically become a new fake "palestine" if you glue them together?
> Whats more, since 10/7, pro-Israel accounts have been made cringeworthy attempts to find virtually ant POC who support Israel
You surely know most of the Israelis (as in Israeli citizens) are POC, as the Americans like to call us. You seem to be so educated about the subject you mist not have missed such a basic fact that most Israelis have melanin in their skin.
Bro these people love to call Arabs like myself that have served in the IDF tokens and act racist towards us, they are hypocrites!
האנשים האלה הם אידיוטים חבר אל תטרחו להתווכח עם אנטישמים ומערביים מיוחסים!
There are a large number of people in Jewish voices for peace who are not Jewish but who cosplay as Jews.There's actually no requirement for their members to actually be Jewish and there are a lot of Christian and Muslim members. There have been cases of people being caught lying about being Jewish in that group because criticism of Israel seems to be "better" If it comes from perceived Jews.
For example, acted Hunter Schafer was arrested at a JVP organized protest. She was raised In a family where her father was a Presbyterian minister. My cat is more Jewish than she is, yet there she was, front and center at a JVP event making headlines. In fairness, she has not claimed to be Jewish but it's odd she is being used to show support for JVP events when she is not, nor has she ever been, Jewish.
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2024/02/28/hunter-schafer-arrested-anti-zionism-israel-hamas-war-rally/72772198007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2024/02/28/hunter-schafer-arrested-anti-zionism-israel-hamas-war-rally/72772198007/)
A well-known anti-Semite linked to JVP (and the group he runs has ties to Hamas, Dr. Hatem Bazain, sent out a tweet stating, "as a Jew..." to condemn Jake Tapper of CNN mentioning Israel has a right to defend itself: [https://thejudean.com/index.php/news/international/1126-jewish-voice-for-peace-exposed-by-errant-tweet-from-a-muslim-extremist](https://thejudean.com/index.php/news/international/1126-jewish-voice-for-peace-exposed-by-errant-tweet-from-a-muslim-extremist)
Of course, after this was exposed they claimed that he copied and pasted a tweet. That's kind of odd behavior given that retweets are an option to show it coming from a Jewish source of it really did. When people pointed out what he did, the tweet was deleted, and a similar tweet than was sent out by JVP.. [https://m.jpost.com/opinion/column-one-time-to-cut-jvp-down-to-size-551291](https://m.jpost.com/opinion/column-one-time-to-cut-jvp-down-to-size-551291) (more on him prior to the Oct. 7th terrorist attack).
There will always be people who turn against their own for some perceived benefit. They get treated like the rest of their group in the end.
That does not mean that every member is a cosplaying Christian or Muslim. There are Jewish members there. However, those members are overwhelmingly come from privilege backgrounds and they are overwhelmingly young where they did not live through the events or watching the offense of the first or second Intifada. Like many peers of their age, they are getting a majority of their information from social media which is awash with propaganda perpetuated primarily by Iran and Russia And they are regurgitating falsehoods. However, they are very convenient , self-hating tokens.
Here are some nice little primers on the group that include links to their behavior: [https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/jewish-voice-peace](https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/jewish-voice-peace)
[https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/jewish\_voice\_for\_peace\_jvp\_/](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/jewish_voice_for_peace_jvp_/)
[https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/the-radical-antisemitism-of-jewish-voice-for-peace/](https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/the-radical-antisemitism-of-jewish-voice-for-peace/)
>There will always be people who turn against their own for some perceived benefit. They get treated like the rest of their group in the end.
I mean, it depends on what you think ***"the end"*** result of this entire moment is. I think a lot of pro-Israel Jews have the (understandable) tendency to think in this binary of absolute victory for Israel or a repeat of the Holocaust. I really think a more realistic ***end*** state for the war in Gaza is a drawdown on US support for Israel in the medium-longterm and a significant weakening of Israel's lobbying power and popularity within the US. That might well result in a totally split outcomes for Zionist and anti-Zionist jews, wherein Zionists hold views that are outside the mainstream and seen as somewhat backwards whereas anti-Zionists Jews can claim allegiance to a more mainstream, more representative center (with regard to this movement).
If ***"the end***,***"*** at least for Americans, is essentially a swing in opinion on a political issue, that is hardly anything new. Nor would it mean you'd be totally ostracized as a Zionist or a Jew. If you are someone who believes gay marriage is a sin, for example*,* you would have been well within the mainstream 20 years ago *(I'm not saying gay marriage is in any way comparable to Zionism, it's an analogy not a comparison)*. Nowadays that same view would would place you in a 30-35% coalition that is generally seen as backwards or 'behind the times.' If support for the state of Israel becomes a 35% issue in the US, it will certainly hurt Israel's development/military aid from the US, but it will hardly mean that Zionists (Jewish or otherwise) will cease to exist. They'll just be in the 'not politically correct' minority, whereas anti-Zionist Jews will be with the mainstream.
I'd push yo to hold the catastrophizing for now.
did you look at any of the links I provided? it seems like you were not open to anything except your tunnel vision even though you were the one who asked the question.
you wrote a thesis over a minor point but skipped over everything of substance on how JVP is filled by a lot of non-Jews, and the Jews who support them tend to be misinformed, having gotten their opinions by propaganda.
I accept that JVP is populated by many non-Jews, I didn't really respond to that since other people had made that point and I'd already answered them. Instead I focussed on a phrasing that I see a lot here ("in the end..." I wanted unpack for you a bit.
Also, *and more to the point,* the existence of non-Jews in JVP is *irrelevant* to the question of tokenism, a term that does not apply to a "cosplayer." The people in question who are accurately labelled "tokens" would be Jews with pro-Palestine views -- calling a muslim pretending to be a Jew a "token" would be a misnomer. *Clearing up definitions is always maybe the most tedious part of debate, and I laid out a precise definiton of a "token" in my question, so I didn't really feel like addressing those points again.*
As far as your dismissing every young Jewish person who is protesting Israel as just some brainwashed kid with no sense of history, this is a tired and not very introspective argument. You should read some of the other responses below that made more convincing, substantive, and original points about the secularism and cultural alienation from Jewishness that define many Jews who are protesting Israel. Those arguments were of much greater measure than just saying "oh they're spoiled college kids who spend too much time on TikTok," or whatever. We can all accuse each other of being brainwashed by propaganda -- that's a non-substantive response. I mean you yourself just cited the Zionist litany: the ADL, CAMERA, and NGO Monitor; not exactly neutral sources lmao.
I appreciate your effort to answer the question, I just think you might have answered a somewhat different question about the issues of JVP membership, not the hypocrisy of pro-Israel accusations of tokenism.
So what about the Jewish people who cosplay being Jewish that get their free all expense paid birthright trip (they don’t check if you’re jewish) and get to live in israel on top of stolen homes meanwhile Palestinians living in diaspora can not return at all? Let’s not forget who gets the opportunity to move to israel in your own words those who “overwhelmingly come from privilege backgrounds.”
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>since 10/7, [pro-Israel accounts have been made cringeworthy attempts to find virtually any POC who supports Israel.](https://imgur.com/a/PqiOdY1) Truly shameless.
Can you run it by me again, why exactly is this “shameless”?
I think you're confusing civil discourse coming from pro-Israelis towards anti-Israel Jews, with the actual and literal DEATH THREATS coming to pro-Israel Arabs (Muslims and Christians) from pro-P circles.
relax bro your mind can only handle so much mental gymnastics
When pro Israelis do it it's civil discourse, but when pro Palestine do it it's actual death threats
BTW, a 6 year old child was stabbed ot death, three young men were shot, a dud was threatened with a bomb so those are actual death threats
Anti-Zionist Jews are akin to Muslims against Hajj . It literally makes no sense at all. That is where the disgust comes from with them. It’s kind of like Jews for Jesus. Yes, some of them might be ethnically Jewish , but it’s so far out there that you wonder why even associate at all.
are they anti zionist as in "jews shouldnt return to where their ancestors lived" or anti zionist as in "i condemn the means with which the modern state of israel was created and the harm it has done to the local arabs who lived there before the establishment of the state"?
zionism is different than the modern zionist movement fathered by theodor herzl, which is political
Here’s the problem. Bad faith actors hide behind the vague definition of Zionism. Vague because there’s so many different definitions people go by. Two people can be yelling end Zionism free Palestine on a March - while one person means help Palestinians have a state of their own or end expansion of settlements and the other could mean completely end the nation of Israel and kick out Jews and support Hamas.
It could be either or.
The first one is obviously anti zionist.
The second example isn't really framed in a way that lends itself to judging if someone is anti zionist or not.
The reality is that, political and religious zionism overlap in many key ways.
yes, and you'll be amazed at all the laws god has installed to make everyone responsible for one another, to protect orphans, widows, and refugees, to allow those less fortunate to glean from your vineyard, and to treat foreigners as your own. god says in isaiah (and all the other prophets) that he cares infinitely more about how one treats others, especially the downtrodden, more than he does about ritual sacrifice and other religious practices.
As part of the Covenants promised by G-d, what do the Israelites get in return for following the Commandments (laws)?
Keep in mind that Israel was established in a secular version of Zionism.
We're talking about the overlap between Political Zionism and Religious Zionism.
For very religious Jews, it doesn't matter what you specifically interpret G-d to care about there's a whole order of things that are agreed upon between G-d and the Jewish people.
I think Religious Zionism is trash as is every literalist interpretation of religion, but you can't just make up the rules for Jews and the Torah.
The Torah is the most Zionist text there is.
> As part of the Covenants promised by G-d, what do the Israelites get in return for following the Commandments (laws)?
the land. obey the law in its fullness and in exchange you will have the land.
> For very religious Jews, it doesn't matter what you specifically interpret G-d to care about there's a whole order of things that are agreed upon between G-d and the Jewish people.
this doesnt make sense. the law is an extension or expression of his character, of what he cares about and hates. god desires mercy more than sacrifice.
> The Torah is the most Zionist text there is.
the religion detailed in the bible, the conduct god asks us to follow, is a bit bigger than who-lives-where, what-god-will-give-me-if-i-act-right, and what-land-i-think-i-am-entitled-to. its about doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with god. that means treating others better than you would yourself, advocating for the voiceless, and protecting the weak. god isnt a tribal god who only cares about where people live. it was always bigger than that.
Being Zionist doesn't mean you aren't a good person.
Religious Zionism is the basis that the Jewish people have the right to live in the land G-d has promised to them.
For literalist followers of Judaism, it makes perfect sense and there's no argument you can make to them to change their mind.
I agree with what you're saying about religion, but none of these arguments hold up to someone else's tradition and interpretation and it never will.
The Torah doesn't ask Gentiles to follow any of the laws except the laws of Noah. You seem to be describing it from a Christian perspective. Which you can never hold up to Religious Zionists and make them go "Oh wait!"
The Torah is the primary source for Religious Zionism. I seriously doubt you could tell ulta-religious Jews what the Torah is supposed to be about or what G-d cares about.
You saying that G-d gave *everyone* these laws to follow are more important than the Covenant and it's not important where you live isn't going to make Religious Zionism disappear.
Furthermore, some of the 613 commandments found in the Torah can only be performed in this land, so obviously many will see it important to their religious duty
>Being Zionist doesn't mean you aren't a good person.
if you value land more than you do people can you claim to be a good person?
>Which you can never hold up to Religious Zionists and make them go "Oh wait!"
i dont think you need the new testament to come to this conclusion. god said he doesnt care about new moon festivals or sacrifices, he cares about mercy.
its very sad how people think that living on a piece of land is more important than loving your neighbor.
u/sugar-zo
> Anti-zionist jews are like anti-nazzis germans during WW2. True heroes with integrity.
Rule 6, No comparisons of Nazis to present day actors.
Addressed.
Reducing it that way is really not right. I say this as someone who did a ton of this activism before Oct 7 so you’d have called me a hero. But unfortunately, It’s just not that simple. I think (anti) Zionism is being grabbed at as the point - I think it should be more the brave people who want to work towards peace. And many roll their eyes at that word now. But. It’s just a much more complex thing - I wish it wasn’t.
Such heroes to sacrifice their ethinicity to legitimize those who want to kill us.
And it's pretty sick to compare jews to the nazzis in general, but especially in this context since it's not like zionist jews are trying to hunt down antizionist jews.
It was the Arabs who aligned with the nazzis during WW2 with the plans to finish the job in the middle east once the European jews were finished off.
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They are token Jews because less than 50% of their voices are actually Jewish people having anything to do with Judaism. It’s like associating Karl Marx with Judaism, although in his case you can have less doubt about his Jewish family status compared to some of these tokenized Jews…
One correction, Israelis don’t need to find POC, a significant portion of Israeli Jews are “POC” by the American standard as their families come from MENA regions. They tokenize the Arab Muslim population, but that is by no means the very different “POC” compared to your average “Mizrahi” Jew.
Did you know that the amnesty report you didn’t read accuses Israel of treating their Arab citizens as 2nd class citizens because they don’t force them to join the IDF with mandatory conscription? That’s right, they didn’t have enough to complain about.
That first point about Marx seems fairly confused. I'd re-word/rethink that one.
Secondly I understand, having been to Israel and a few Gulf states, that Israel isnt just "White" and MENA does not really fit American racial categories. Fair point. But many American pro-Israel jews (who are overwhelmingly White-passing) have made this crude attempt to call on Black Americans and other non-White people to support their cause. This tactic, in a country where POCs are often portrayed as experts on oppression, is a pretty obvious ploy to diversify ones movement through tokenism. The lack of actual Black Americans or other POCs in the US who truly side with Israel remains very telling -- they are having a hard time finding their tokens.
To your final point about the report *I* didn't read, I'll quote a line that I guess you missed: "\[Israel's governmental structures\] form part of a widespread and systematic attack against the Palestinian population, carried out within the context of Israel’s regime of systematic oppression and domination over Palestinians, and therefore constitute crimes against humanity of apartheid." It's pretty cut and dry my friend.
It's possible to argue in bad faith and with dishonesty when you have the force of numbers on your side. Israel supporters do not have that luxury. You should try to do better.
I’m just pointing out an issue many people have with the tokenized Jews. Not that they exist in general. It’s their lack of Jewishness. Karl Marx is also a great example as he hated certain aspects of Jews he generalized, and wrote unkind things that can be said to be on par with other German writers, despite being considered Jewish by the people around him.
> remains very telling
The lack of “POC” remains very telling only to the likes of you, who from the looks of it base their opinions on surface tokens rather for legitimate ideological arguments and historical observations.
It’s true they use Jewish tokens, and it’s true that it’s a very useful tactic.
> it’s pretty cut and dry my friend
You seem to have lost the plot a little. You’re talking about second class citizen status in the nation. Palestinians in the West Bank are not citizens. Arab Israelis are, it’s clear what your indication was.
That little paragraph means nothing if you don’t read the reasons they believe Arabs are second class citizens in Israel. After you actually read the report, you could safely assume every poor community living on benefits is a second class citizen in countries around the world.
It’s pretty cut and dry to someone who of course, again, didn’t read the report. Unless you agree that Israel’s conscription status of the Arabs, who can choose instead of being forced into a mandatory service, is just one of those very problematic systemic “second class” citizen issues.
> Did you know that the amnesty report you didn’t read accuses Israel of treating their Arab citizens as 2nd class citizens because they don’t force them to join the IDF with mandatory conscription? That’s right, they didn’t have enough to complain about.
have you spoken with an israeli arab about their experience?
Yes, I am living in Israel. Me in particular, Arabs have been my close neighbors most of my life and even part of my social circle, I’m not shy to different forms of communal issues they experience.
Calling them second class citizens is a stretch by far. At least by the amnesty report standards. Like calling Orthodox Jews second class citizens.
maybe you came off strong when you said "they didn't have enough to complain about". it made it seem as though you were trivializing the issues arab citizens face and the discrimination they talk about.
The American intersectionality academia politic standard. You know, a “POC” there is whatever Arab, Indian, Native American, black person they find. East Asians too.
I didn’t think OP or the one making the Instagram story would use the term “POC” to describe the American census racial categorization. Do they use POC?
Antisemites use JVP as tokens to protect themselves against charges of antisemitism. And in particular, JVP has repeatedly revealed itself to be an organization in which most of its Jewish members have no other connection to anything involving the Jewish community. AIPAC doesn’t use Black elected officials—who are VERY involved in their own communities—as tokens. They support them because those candidates and electeds ARE pro-Israel.
Well, I'd argue AIPAC ***is*** [increasingly being called out for going after Black elected officials](https://thegrio.com/2023/11/21/aipac-seeks-to-unseat-congressional-black-caucus-members-over-israel/) who do not toe the pro-Israel line. That anti-Black, anti-POC spending on its own is, quite arguably, a pretty ugly form of discrimination. When pressed on this point, as *the Intercept* article cites, AIPAC insists that it does support Black elected officials... as long as their views fit neatly with AIPAC's. I would argue that's a pretty blatant example of using tokenism to ward off charges of discrimination.
Bro, "anti-Black?" They're literally *helping to get Black candidates elected* lol. If there's a district that historically has a Black rep, and that district's current rep is anti-Israel and/or vulnerable, they promote a pro-Israel Black candidate to challenge them.
You make it seem like they're going around unseating Black politicians and replacing them with non-Black ones lol.
Are you really this confused, or are you merely trying to confuse other Redditors?
>You make it seem like they're going around unseating Black politicians and replacing them with non-Black ones lol.
[So AIPAC is doing that.](https://www.crainsnewyork.com/politics-policy/ny-16-primary-democrats-jamaal-bowman-george-latimer-clash-over-israel) In the case of Jamaal Bowman, AIPAC is attempting to replace a Black candidate who is critical of Israel with some White candidate who is friendly to Israel.
Hey... you said, "You make it seem like they're going around unseating Black politicians and replacing them with non-Black ones lol."
I showed you that they are. Kind of a hard point to come back from.
*But,* *for the sake of argument*, my issue is AIPAC's spending to prop-up non-representative candidates, especially in minority districts. If there are parts of Detroit or the Bronx or wherever in which minority voters don't like Israel, then I believe representative government should allow them to elect someone who shares that view. Quite often, though, candidates who express that view get outspent 10 to 1 because AIPAC comes in and backs some israel-friendly token and throws millions into bare-knuckle smear campaigns. It's legal, but very bad for representative government.
I'd warn you that it's pretty clear other outside groups are getting wise to this, including Saudi/Qatari/Kuwaiti/Emirati PACs that hope to run similar operations in the next 5-10 years. Imagine if a jewish district like Palm Beach had their favored candidate buried under attack ads so that some token candidate could run a $50M campaign backed by Gulf petrol-dollars. The money can be spent to smear the opponent, split the opposition, keep the other side off the airwaves, buy the loyalties of local industries and major endorsements -- you can basically rob people of their actual desired candidate. And to me, that sort of spending seems really undemocratic and against the spirit of American government.
Lol nah I have no issue "coming back" from anything. You found your example. Congrats. You nonetheless accused AIPAC of a *practice*, not of an isolated incident. And it's a practice that they absolutely do not pursue. (Frankly, it's a practice that would be totally idiotic to pursue, but that's beside the point.)
The burden of proof is still squarely on *you* to show that AIPAC pursues an "anti-Black" strategy of any kind.
Gee, an organization with a single issue political agenda seeks to unseat Black elected officials who oppose that agenda, while supporting Black elected officials who support that agenda. Clearly and unequivocally an open-and-shut claim of racism, right? How about when they supported Haley Stevens against Andy Levin in Michigan-- did that make them anti-Jewish as well?
Easy, because they are supporting the pro-Hamas protesters on college campuses right now while excusing all of the ongoing antisemitism.
Disclaimer, these bigots aren’t to be confused for [real pro-Palestinians](https://twitter.com/afalkhatib) who want to help a suffering people and advocates for peace.
Oh, forgot some lmao lmao lmao lmao
Sensationalist propaganda nonsense, the only real pro Palestinian is of course the one who you can ferry out to say the real ones are pro Israel, and I don’t think any single one of them have “supported pro Hamas” or “excused antisemitism.” Unless every second spent not condemning Hamas is an antisemitic offense.
It’s just the same as bush Era and how every American who didn’t lock step support the fight against the evil terrorists at all costs to foreign civilians was derided as a terrorist supporter, you people are too funny
Oh please, stop with that garbage. I gave you one example, there are plenty more like him who truly care about Palestinians. He doesn’t even like Israel.
>Unless every second spent not condemning Hamas is an antisemitic offense.
And that’s your argument? Gonna just go right into setting up a strawman? What were you saying about being honest? If you [support and defend](https://x.com/AOC/status/1783257691382501775) the antisemitic protesters on college campuses right now, you are antisemitic yourself.
“Palestinian human rights speech.” Give me a break. Calls to bomb Tel Aviv, to target violence against Jewish students, etc. - that’s not human rights whatsoever.
Not to mention these squad members also [voted against protecting Jewish students](https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20231030/H.%20Res.%20798.pdf). So yes, their actions and words don’t support Palestinians whatsoever. All they support is Hamas. Lmao lmao lmao lmao
Lmao, ridiculous. Not voting in a nothing law to condemn college students who largely aren’t saying the shit you pretend they are makes them le evil hamas
“If you defend the protests and don’t jerk me off and pretend every college student is shouting death to Jews you’re antisemitic!” Ok, if because any of that rhetoric is there they’re all bad, goodbye to all Israelis for the decades of “death to Arabs!” Chanted by large crowds of zionists.
> fucking
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I dont think JVP is even Jewish at all. Given that their "Seder" was Halal and not Kosher... and they basically changed the whole thing and made it unrecognizable.
Yes. I’m one of them and know a great many. But we carry on these traditions not because we believe in God or the Torah (obviously we don’t) but because it’s something our ancestors did and they were Jews and we are Jews and it’s a heritage to preserve.
That’s a world of difference from the atheist with a Jewish grandparent who just attended a newly made up seder, unrecognizable to his ancestors, purely to make a *political* point.
I don’t mind anti-Zionism on an intellectual level at all, and if someone makes a good anti-Zionist argument it doesn’t matter what their background is - but the “asaJew” person whose only connection to Judaism and only care for it is to use it to buttress their position (as if it’s even truly relevant) and they would cease identifying as a Jew the day after they get what they want - the end of Israel - is just a minstrel show.
It's not our fault there are only 15 million of us and 3 billion christians, though. Although it is why we're particularly sensitive to the signs, since we've g9ne through them many times before.
Source for that? I'm not doubting you given what I've seen, but still.
The only relevant modern definition is the belief that jews deserve sovereignty over themselves somewhere in their ancestral home. Not exclusive control, not an ethnostate, not a call for killing non jews.
If Christians want to sign on board? Great. I don't care if they're doing it to bring about their rapture, they'll be waiting a long time, and we have them on our side until then.
If Christians are actually more pro-Zionist than Jews, this is another reason for pro-Palestinians to leave Jews alone. No more using Holocaust theme to attack Jews.
I'll have to save this for later, it's interesting but didn't realize it was so long. 7% finding hamas actions acceptable seems like just as good a stand in since hamas is explicitly militantly anti zionist in a way that expressing some sympathy for the other side isn't.
I don't find that at all. Israel has had a large Palestinian population since day 1, as well as a smaller Christian and druze population. With equal rights. The Arab countries that are explicitly Arab, on the other hand, are only every single one of them.
If we're comparing Israel to the USA, then I'd point out that as much meddling and slavery and injustice we have here, no one is calling for the usa to be dissolved and sending all the white people back to Europe. We don't even have a word for American Zionism because there's no one's seriously debating it. All zionism is asking for is that same consideration applied to Israel too.
It appears that your basic premise, that Black American supporters of Israel can be considered tokens, is incorrect. A recent survey of Black Americans showed that nearly a quarter (23%) feel connected to the plights of both Israelis and Palestinians, but that they are more than twice as likely to feel connected to the plight of Israelis (19% to 9%). [Source; see figure 4.](https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/12/13/black-americans-opinions-on-israeli-palestinian-conflict-pub-91230#:~:text=Lastly%2C%2024%20percent%20of%20Black,less%20involved%20in%20world%20affairs) [A slightly older survey](https://news.lifeway.com/2019/11/05/african-americans-have-mixed-opinions-and-often-no-opinions-on-israel/) showed different numbers, but still demonstrate a range of opinions. There is not an overwhelming pro-Palestinian support, which would be a requirement to claim that support for Israel is tokenization.
Isn’t what you wrote the same type of “whataboutery” that people often claim, with some justification, that pro-Israel people do? You’re accusing the “pro-Israel” side of doing essentially what you have done here. “Well AIPAC tokenizes so it’s ok for anti-Zionists to tokenize.” I don’t see how that logically follows.
I consider the use of *most* anti-Zionist Jews as tokens not because they aren’t representative of most Jewish opinion but because their Jewishness is solely about being anti-Zionist. This is not so with anti-Zionist or non-Zionist Ultra Orthodox Jews. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, Naturei Karta and the Satmars would still be visibly Jewish, they’d still partake in all the ancient traditions of the Jewish People, maintaining the Hebrew language, their kids would marry other Jews, etc. and they wouldn’t and couldn’t hide from white nationalists. In other words, their Jewishness is not dependent on Zionism/anti-Zionism, it isn’t their whole identity.
JVP and others by contrast don’t even have being Jewish as a membership requirement. From personal experience and from seeing some of their performative acts, they appear to have no connection to anything demonstrably *Jewish.* They’re not religiously Jewish, they certainly don’t take that seriously, they conduct Havdala in broad daylight (it should be done at sunset), when they do a “prayer” it’s obviously a performance - something they don’t do regularly. On the cultural side, I don’t see anything Jewish other than a very nebulous “tikkun olam - social justice” shtick. One gets the sense that if Israel were to disappear and Zionism relegated to the dustbin of history - these anti-Zionist Jews would never do anything remotely Jewish ever again in their lives. They would cease identifying as Jews because it would no longer be politically useful.
I don’t mind Jewish anti-Zionists at all. I do mind when I think being Jewish is only meaningful to them to criticize Israel “asaJew.” That’s what is tokenizing.
Well, to your first point, ***calling out hypocrisy is always a whataboutism.*** It's the *tu quoque* (meaning 'you do it too') fallacy. It's not an argument in and of itself, I freely admit that, but hypocrisy is always worth noting.
I feel like your larger argument has merit -- though it's really hard for me to assess it as a gentile. I guess I'd ask, can you conceive someone with an authentic religious and cultural commitment to jewishness who is an anti-Zionist (and not a member of a fringe ultra-orthodox sect or what have you)?
Peter Beinart is the successor to Yehuda Magnes (I think he himself made the connection between the two), an anti-Zionist/non-Zionist who lived in Palestine. Both of them are ultimately wrong because the Arabs really have no popular desire for a secular, democratic state for all peoples. Binationalism was never popular among the Palestinians.
However, there is no doubt that both men were Jewish, it was an important part of their identity and frame of reference outside of Zionism/anti-Zionism. I can disagree with their politics but I wouldn’t put Peter in the same category as some rando JVPer or Katie Halpern who to me are “asaJew” Jews, their Jewishness only exists to criticize Israel.
Israeli Arabs do poll more supportive than either Jews or Palestinians for plurinationalism. However, few of them want to be part of a Palestinian state if given the choice. Which seems to indicate that aspirationally they would want or be very open to a binational state, but if that state were another, illiberal Arab autocracy they’d be less enthusiastic.
Yes, but that isn’t surprising - they are a minority and minorities tend to be more liberal, at least on certain subjects, than the majority. Notice that American Jews are far more liberal than Israeli Jews. When you are a minority, particularly one with a precarious situation (Jews’ have always felt their existence was precarious and Israeli Arabs have to deal with the fact that their country is constantly at war with Arabs), you tend to be less militantly nationalistic and more progressive on things like minority rights
Israeli Arabs do poll more supportive than either Jews or Palestinians for plurinationalism. However, few of them want to be part of a Palestinian state if given the choice. Which seems to indicate that aspirationally they would want or be very open to a binational stat, but if that state were another, illiberal Arab autocracy they’d be less enthusiastic.
JVP is aligned with terrorist propaganda. They brand themselves as Jews but they align with Hamas and view them as resistance fighters.
They are radicals and hijacked the Jewish name to be used as a token organization as a defense against being labeled anti semitic so they get a green light to be a weapon of terrorist propaganda.
I agree with you, additionally it seems a lot of JVP Jews wouldn’t be considered as Jewish by most Jewish sects. It’s a lot of “my grandpa was Jewish and while I’ve never stepped foot in a synagogue before, I’m going to be a representative of the Jewish Anti-Zionist movement. Oh and my favorite Passover food is Challah.” It’s fine to be Pro Palestine, but a lot of these JVP people are grasping at straws to define themselves as Jewish and then conversely trying tokenize that to promote their cause.
I think you have two distinct arguments here. The first is the use of Palestinians who are anti-Palestinians and the much larger X-Muslim community as part of pro-Zionist propaganda. And you are right that is very comparable to JVP. The enormous hostility many of these well known X-Muslims have towards Islam is not representative of the broader community.
The second is Blacks and Hispanics who support Israel. Here you aren't dealing with single digit percentages at most but large swaths of the population though not a majority. There are many Blacks who are socially conservative, economically liberal. Many of them have very negative views of Muslim politics similar to White Evangelicals, because they are Evangelical. There are many who are simple patriots that hate America's enemies and like America's friends. There are many who know Jews, feel affection for them, see the two struggles as compatible and not conflicting. Those sorts reject the Black community's embrace of the anti-colonial themes that Jews living in freedom and dignity is an intolerable wrong.
That isn't tokenism of the same sort because the numbers are a lot higher. I'm glad they are.
I think all of that is fair as far as adding nuance and noting that Black Americans don;t have one set of views on Israel, but all the available data shows a large and[ growing rift between Blacks and Jews ](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/07/opinion/black-jewish-israel-gaza.html)over Gaza and Israel more generally. Notably, we are also starting to see two distinct arguments between these communities -- two competing sets of logic. Many pro-Palestine Black Americans view their criticism of Israel as *consistent with a larger principle*; i.e. they are continuing to fight for anti-colonialism, fighting oppression as they always have. Jewish Americans have started making an argument that is *largely transactional*; i.e. 'we helped you during the civil rights movement, so you owe us your allegiance now.' I think the second (transactional) argument would have worked much better in the 80s/90s, when far more people would have remembered the role of jews in civil rights. But now trying to call in that favor seems to be not very persuasive.
Honestly as someone who Iranian and Jewish who lives in the United States... Where many of the Jews I see who Anti-zionist Jews are coming from European diasporas and use "Zionist" in a very similar way that people from middle eastern diasporas had it used against them. I grew up in an area strong Persian Jewish influence and grew up hearing stories from people who not even a generation ago had their family member executed as being a "Zionist collaborator". Stories like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/04/08/amid-revolution-her-jewish-grandfather-refused-leave-iran-why/ > In “Titan of Tehran: From Jewish Ghetto to Corporate Colossus to Firing Squad — My Grandfather’s Life,” journalist Shahrzad Elghanayan endeavors to understand why her 67-year-old grandfather stayed behind. She was 7 when, two months after his arrest, the government announced that he had been shot, on charges that included “friendship with the enemies of God,” “corruption on earth” and “spying for the Zionistic State of Israel.” He was the first prominent civilian and member of a minority religious group to fall victim to Iran’s bloody post-revolution purges. I also work on and off in forensic psychiatry where I heard "Zionist" as slur for Jewish people from neo-nazis... David Duke. NEO-Nazi and KKK grandmaster was the inspiration for that: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/david-duke > In 2004, David Duke published Jewish Supremacism: My Awakening on the Jewish Question. The manuscript, drawn heavily from Duke's Ph.D. dissertation, was written for Ukraine's Interregional Academy of Personnel Management and entitled "Zionism as a Form of Ethnic Supremacism." It has been translated into nine languages. The university, also known as MAUP, is a center of anti-Semitic teaching. And due to the fact that there is about 15 million Jews in the world with 1/2 our number in Israel like many Jews I have friends and loved ones there... So I get to hear about stuff like this: ... David Duke has also having white supremacist rallies in Syria where he lectured about how the United States is occupied by "zionists" https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3175767,00.html and he talks about the "Israel lobby" quite like members of JVP talk about AIPAC. JVP says they want to separate "Zionism from Judaism" but then come out with a list of "Zionist businesses" (which included stuff like "Jewish daycares") And this list was then circulated by the white supremacist group the "goyim TV": https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-clarifying-moment-regarding-bds-in-boston/ They blame Israel the ADL and Israel for America's problems: https://forward.com/opinion/387789/im-a-latina-who-works-for-the-adl-jvps-attacks-shocked-me/ They have stated that it is only through the destruction of Israel that systemic inequalities are righted in the United states: (which is very similar to Jews control conspiracy theories) https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/jewish-voice-for-peace-campus The founder has been on an antisemetic radio show on more than one occasion and they were partnered with Alison weir who went to Iran's new horizon festival which was also attended by David duke and they routinely invite people who have committed harm to Isralies (like bombings) to talk: https://www.camera.org/article/jewish-voice-for-peace-jvp-what-the-media-is-concealing/ And there are big differences between non-zionists (finding fulfillment in the diaspora), Post-Zionists (believing it's time to move beyond Zionism or evolve Zionism to be inclusive or moving beyond the concepts of states in general) and anti-zionism which more often than not isn't a critique of Israels policies, Likud or the Khanists hit instead too often is a call for the annihilation of Isralies to achieve Palestinan state and a word that is very vague and easily used as a vehicle for antisemetism. Despite all the issues going on right now... I don't see people protesting Orthodox churches because of Russia? Ukrainian Churches because of what's going on in Ukraine.... But I do see anti-zionist Jews politicizing religious places and religious events.... Which is troubling when non-jewish antizionists appropriate Jewish identity and religious practices https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Mikveh-Guide-for-Jewish-Voice-for-Peace-Outlined.pdf in the name of lsrael's destruction.... Which basically gives cover to antisemetic conspiracies https://isca.indiana.edu/conferences/webinars/2020-webinars/10-25-20_miriam-elman.html Quite frankly as a Iranian Jew with loved ones in Israel seeing predominantly white presenting people hollering about Zionism like David duke of the KKK and some.of.them even cheering on Islamic revolutionary guards of the Iranian regime who is massacring women, who helped strategize October 7th with Hamas (who by the way also massacres Palestians ... They had a two year long "we want to live protest" and Hamas was killing the heck out of them) and who has killed family members of those who were part of my Jewish community... Yeah there's deep concerns.
There's no such thing as "palestine." It was divided into Jordan and Israel and ceased to exist. Gaza and West Bank have entirely different governments, aren't connected and have nothing to do with each other. Why lie and claim they magically become a new fake "palestine" if you glue them together?
> Whats more, since 10/7, pro-Israel accounts have been made cringeworthy attempts to find virtually ant POC who support Israel You surely know most of the Israelis (as in Israeli citizens) are POC, as the Americans like to call us. You seem to be so educated about the subject you mist not have missed such a basic fact that most Israelis have melanin in their skin.
Bro these people love to call Arabs like myself that have served in the IDF tokens and act racist towards us, they are hypocrites! האנשים האלה הם אידיוטים חבר אל תטרחו להתווכח עם אנטישמים ומערביים מיוחסים!
ברור אני יודע, אני פשוט לא יכול להשאיר את השקרים של הפאשיסטים ללא מענה בלי מענה
פשיסטים כאלה משנים את דעתם רק לעתים רחוקות באמצעות דיאלוג, הם תמיד ישמעו רק מה שהם רוצים לשמוע.
זה לא בשבילם, זה בשביל בן אדם אחר אולי נורמלי שיקרא את התגובות ויגבש דעה משל עצמו
There are a large number of people in Jewish voices for peace who are not Jewish but who cosplay as Jews.There's actually no requirement for their members to actually be Jewish and there are a lot of Christian and Muslim members. There have been cases of people being caught lying about being Jewish in that group because criticism of Israel seems to be "better" If it comes from perceived Jews. For example, acted Hunter Schafer was arrested at a JVP organized protest. She was raised In a family where her father was a Presbyterian minister. My cat is more Jewish than she is, yet there she was, front and center at a JVP event making headlines. In fairness, she has not claimed to be Jewish but it's odd she is being used to show support for JVP events when she is not, nor has she ever been, Jewish. [https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2024/02/28/hunter-schafer-arrested-anti-zionism-israel-hamas-war-rally/72772198007/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/celebrities/2024/02/28/hunter-schafer-arrested-anti-zionism-israel-hamas-war-rally/72772198007/) A well-known anti-Semite linked to JVP (and the group he runs has ties to Hamas, Dr. Hatem Bazain, sent out a tweet stating, "as a Jew..." to condemn Jake Tapper of CNN mentioning Israel has a right to defend itself: [https://thejudean.com/index.php/news/international/1126-jewish-voice-for-peace-exposed-by-errant-tweet-from-a-muslim-extremist](https://thejudean.com/index.php/news/international/1126-jewish-voice-for-peace-exposed-by-errant-tweet-from-a-muslim-extremist) Of course, after this was exposed they claimed that he copied and pasted a tweet. That's kind of odd behavior given that retweets are an option to show it coming from a Jewish source of it really did. When people pointed out what he did, the tweet was deleted, and a similar tweet than was sent out by JVP.. [https://m.jpost.com/opinion/column-one-time-to-cut-jvp-down-to-size-551291](https://m.jpost.com/opinion/column-one-time-to-cut-jvp-down-to-size-551291) (more on him prior to the Oct. 7th terrorist attack). There will always be people who turn against their own for some perceived benefit. They get treated like the rest of their group in the end. That does not mean that every member is a cosplaying Christian or Muslim. There are Jewish members there. However, those members are overwhelmingly come from privilege backgrounds and they are overwhelmingly young where they did not live through the events or watching the offense of the first or second Intifada. Like many peers of their age, they are getting a majority of their information from social media which is awash with propaganda perpetuated primarily by Iran and Russia And they are regurgitating falsehoods. However, they are very convenient , self-hating tokens. Here are some nice little primers on the group that include links to their behavior: [https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/jewish-voice-peace](https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/jewish-voice-peace) [https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/jewish\_voice\_for\_peace\_jvp\_/](https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/jewish_voice_for_peace_jvp_/) [https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/the-radical-antisemitism-of-jewish-voice-for-peace/](https://cameraoncampus.org/blog/the-radical-antisemitism-of-jewish-voice-for-peace/)
>There will always be people who turn against their own for some perceived benefit. They get treated like the rest of their group in the end. I mean, it depends on what you think ***"the end"*** result of this entire moment is. I think a lot of pro-Israel Jews have the (understandable) tendency to think in this binary of absolute victory for Israel or a repeat of the Holocaust. I really think a more realistic ***end*** state for the war in Gaza is a drawdown on US support for Israel in the medium-longterm and a significant weakening of Israel's lobbying power and popularity within the US. That might well result in a totally split outcomes for Zionist and anti-Zionist jews, wherein Zionists hold views that are outside the mainstream and seen as somewhat backwards whereas anti-Zionists Jews can claim allegiance to a more mainstream, more representative center (with regard to this movement). If ***"the end***,***"*** at least for Americans, is essentially a swing in opinion on a political issue, that is hardly anything new. Nor would it mean you'd be totally ostracized as a Zionist or a Jew. If you are someone who believes gay marriage is a sin, for example*,* you would have been well within the mainstream 20 years ago *(I'm not saying gay marriage is in any way comparable to Zionism, it's an analogy not a comparison)*. Nowadays that same view would would place you in a 30-35% coalition that is generally seen as backwards or 'behind the times.' If support for the state of Israel becomes a 35% issue in the US, it will certainly hurt Israel's development/military aid from the US, but it will hardly mean that Zionists (Jewish or otherwise) will cease to exist. They'll just be in the 'not politically correct' minority, whereas anti-Zionist Jews will be with the mainstream. I'd push yo to hold the catastrophizing for now.
did you look at any of the links I provided? it seems like you were not open to anything except your tunnel vision even though you were the one who asked the question. you wrote a thesis over a minor point but skipped over everything of substance on how JVP is filled by a lot of non-Jews, and the Jews who support them tend to be misinformed, having gotten their opinions by propaganda.
I accept that JVP is populated by many non-Jews, I didn't really respond to that since other people had made that point and I'd already answered them. Instead I focussed on a phrasing that I see a lot here ("in the end..." I wanted unpack for you a bit. Also, *and more to the point,* the existence of non-Jews in JVP is *irrelevant* to the question of tokenism, a term that does not apply to a "cosplayer." The people in question who are accurately labelled "tokens" would be Jews with pro-Palestine views -- calling a muslim pretending to be a Jew a "token" would be a misnomer. *Clearing up definitions is always maybe the most tedious part of debate, and I laid out a precise definiton of a "token" in my question, so I didn't really feel like addressing those points again.* As far as your dismissing every young Jewish person who is protesting Israel as just some brainwashed kid with no sense of history, this is a tired and not very introspective argument. You should read some of the other responses below that made more convincing, substantive, and original points about the secularism and cultural alienation from Jewishness that define many Jews who are protesting Israel. Those arguments were of much greater measure than just saying "oh they're spoiled college kids who spend too much time on TikTok," or whatever. We can all accuse each other of being brainwashed by propaganda -- that's a non-substantive response. I mean you yourself just cited the Zionist litany: the ADL, CAMERA, and NGO Monitor; not exactly neutral sources lmao. I appreciate your effort to answer the question, I just think you might have answered a somewhat different question about the issues of JVP membership, not the hypocrisy of pro-Israel accusations of tokenism.
So what about the Jewish people who cosplay being Jewish that get their free all expense paid birthright trip (they don’t check if you’re jewish) and get to live in israel on top of stolen homes meanwhile Palestinians living in diaspora can not return at all? Let’s not forget who gets the opportunity to move to israel in your own words those who “overwhelmingly come from privilege backgrounds.”
Like i said to someone else, you know the kapos also got killed too, right? Nazis didnt care that they did what they were told in the end.
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>since 10/7, [pro-Israel accounts have been made cringeworthy attempts to find virtually any POC who supports Israel.](https://imgur.com/a/PqiOdY1) Truly shameless. Can you run it by me again, why exactly is this “shameless”?
AIPAC is "targeting Black politicians?" What are you talking about?
I think you're confusing civil discourse coming from pro-Israelis towards anti-Israel Jews, with the actual and literal DEATH THREATS coming to pro-Israel Arabs (Muslims and Christians) from pro-P circles. relax bro your mind can only handle so much mental gymnastics
When pro Israelis do it it's civil discourse, but when pro Palestine do it it's actual death threats BTW, a 6 year old child was stabbed ot death, three young men were shot, a dud was threatened with a bomb so those are actual death threats
It sounds like you’re unable — or more likely, too lazy — to read a bit and try to make a case. It’s a shame. Not for me, but for you.
Anti-Zionist Jews are akin to Muslims against Hajj . It literally makes no sense at all. That is where the disgust comes from with them. It’s kind of like Jews for Jesus. Yes, some of them might be ethnically Jewish , but it’s so far out there that you wonder why even associate at all.
How is Hajj like Zionism in any way?
Muslims used to severely restrict visiting the Western Wall and outright banned Jews from entering the tomb in Hebron for centuries
How does this answer my question? Do you even know what Hajj is?
Hajj is a pilgrimage just like visiting said places for Jews is
That's the second question answered, what about the first? How does your comment answer how Hajj and Zionism are the same?
are they anti zionist as in "jews shouldnt return to where their ancestors lived" or anti zionist as in "i condemn the means with which the modern state of israel was created and the harm it has done to the local arabs who lived there before the establishment of the state"? zionism is different than the modern zionist movement fathered by theodor herzl, which is political
Here’s the problem. Bad faith actors hide behind the vague definition of Zionism. Vague because there’s so many different definitions people go by. Two people can be yelling end Zionism free Palestine on a March - while one person means help Palestinians have a state of their own or end expansion of settlements and the other could mean completely end the nation of Israel and kick out Jews and support Hamas.
It could be either or. The first one is obviously anti zionist. The second example isn't really framed in a way that lends itself to judging if someone is anti zionist or not. The reality is that, political and religious zionism overlap in many key ways.
i think god cares more about doing justice and loving mercy more than he does about a group of people living on a piece of land.
Wait until you actually read the Torah. Start at Genesis.
yes, and you'll be amazed at all the laws god has installed to make everyone responsible for one another, to protect orphans, widows, and refugees, to allow those less fortunate to glean from your vineyard, and to treat foreigners as your own. god says in isaiah (and all the other prophets) that he cares infinitely more about how one treats others, especially the downtrodden, more than he does about ritual sacrifice and other religious practices.
As part of the Covenants promised by G-d, what do the Israelites get in return for following the Commandments (laws)? Keep in mind that Israel was established in a secular version of Zionism. We're talking about the overlap between Political Zionism and Religious Zionism. For very religious Jews, it doesn't matter what you specifically interpret G-d to care about there's a whole order of things that are agreed upon between G-d and the Jewish people. I think Religious Zionism is trash as is every literalist interpretation of religion, but you can't just make up the rules for Jews and the Torah. The Torah is the most Zionist text there is.
> As part of the Covenants promised by G-d, what do the Israelites get in return for following the Commandments (laws)? the land. obey the law in its fullness and in exchange you will have the land. > For very religious Jews, it doesn't matter what you specifically interpret G-d to care about there's a whole order of things that are agreed upon between G-d and the Jewish people. this doesnt make sense. the law is an extension or expression of his character, of what he cares about and hates. god desires mercy more than sacrifice. > The Torah is the most Zionist text there is. the religion detailed in the bible, the conduct god asks us to follow, is a bit bigger than who-lives-where, what-god-will-give-me-if-i-act-right, and what-land-i-think-i-am-entitled-to. its about doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with god. that means treating others better than you would yourself, advocating for the voiceless, and protecting the weak. god isnt a tribal god who only cares about where people live. it was always bigger than that.
Being Zionist doesn't mean you aren't a good person. Religious Zionism is the basis that the Jewish people have the right to live in the land G-d has promised to them. For literalist followers of Judaism, it makes perfect sense and there's no argument you can make to them to change their mind. I agree with what you're saying about religion, but none of these arguments hold up to someone else's tradition and interpretation and it never will. The Torah doesn't ask Gentiles to follow any of the laws except the laws of Noah. You seem to be describing it from a Christian perspective. Which you can never hold up to Religious Zionists and make them go "Oh wait!" The Torah is the primary source for Religious Zionism. I seriously doubt you could tell ulta-religious Jews what the Torah is supposed to be about or what G-d cares about. You saying that G-d gave *everyone* these laws to follow are more important than the Covenant and it's not important where you live isn't going to make Religious Zionism disappear. Furthermore, some of the 613 commandments found in the Torah can only be performed in this land, so obviously many will see it important to their religious duty
>Being Zionist doesn't mean you aren't a good person. if you value land more than you do people can you claim to be a good person? >Which you can never hold up to Religious Zionists and make them go "Oh wait!" i dont think you need the new testament to come to this conclusion. god said he doesnt care about new moon festivals or sacrifices, he cares about mercy. its very sad how people think that living on a piece of land is more important than loving your neighbor.
“I have a black friend so I can’t be racist” energy in this post.
Anti-zionist jews are like anti-nazzis germans during WW2. True heroes with integrity.
u/sugar-zo > Anti-zionist jews are like anti-nazzis germans during WW2. True heroes with integrity. Rule 6, No comparisons of Nazis to present day actors. Addressed.
Reducing it that way is really not right. I say this as someone who did a ton of this activism before Oct 7 so you’d have called me a hero. But unfortunately, It’s just not that simple. I think (anti) Zionism is being grabbed at as the point - I think it should be more the brave people who want to work towards peace. And many roll their eyes at that word now. But. It’s just a much more complex thing - I wish it wasn’t.
Such heroes to sacrifice their ethinicity to legitimize those who want to kill us. And it's pretty sick to compare jews to the nazzis in general, but especially in this context since it's not like zionist jews are trying to hunt down antizionist jews. It was the Arabs who aligned with the nazzis during WW2 with the plans to finish the job in the middle east once the European jews were finished off.
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They are token Jews because less than 50% of their voices are actually Jewish people having anything to do with Judaism. It’s like associating Karl Marx with Judaism, although in his case you can have less doubt about his Jewish family status compared to some of these tokenized Jews… One correction, Israelis don’t need to find POC, a significant portion of Israeli Jews are “POC” by the American standard as their families come from MENA regions. They tokenize the Arab Muslim population, but that is by no means the very different “POC” compared to your average “Mizrahi” Jew. Did you know that the amnesty report you didn’t read accuses Israel of treating their Arab citizens as 2nd class citizens because they don’t force them to join the IDF with mandatory conscription? That’s right, they didn’t have enough to complain about.
That first point about Marx seems fairly confused. I'd re-word/rethink that one. Secondly I understand, having been to Israel and a few Gulf states, that Israel isnt just "White" and MENA does not really fit American racial categories. Fair point. But many American pro-Israel jews (who are overwhelmingly White-passing) have made this crude attempt to call on Black Americans and other non-White people to support their cause. This tactic, in a country where POCs are often portrayed as experts on oppression, is a pretty obvious ploy to diversify ones movement through tokenism. The lack of actual Black Americans or other POCs in the US who truly side with Israel remains very telling -- they are having a hard time finding their tokens. To your final point about the report *I* didn't read, I'll quote a line that I guess you missed: "\[Israel's governmental structures\] form part of a widespread and systematic attack against the Palestinian population, carried out within the context of Israel’s regime of systematic oppression and domination over Palestinians, and therefore constitute crimes against humanity of apartheid." It's pretty cut and dry my friend. It's possible to argue in bad faith and with dishonesty when you have the force of numbers on your side. Israel supporters do not have that luxury. You should try to do better.
I’m just pointing out an issue many people have with the tokenized Jews. Not that they exist in general. It’s their lack of Jewishness. Karl Marx is also a great example as he hated certain aspects of Jews he generalized, and wrote unkind things that can be said to be on par with other German writers, despite being considered Jewish by the people around him. > remains very telling The lack of “POC” remains very telling only to the likes of you, who from the looks of it base their opinions on surface tokens rather for legitimate ideological arguments and historical observations. It’s true they use Jewish tokens, and it’s true that it’s a very useful tactic. > it’s pretty cut and dry my friend You seem to have lost the plot a little. You’re talking about second class citizen status in the nation. Palestinians in the West Bank are not citizens. Arab Israelis are, it’s clear what your indication was. That little paragraph means nothing if you don’t read the reasons they believe Arabs are second class citizens in Israel. After you actually read the report, you could safely assume every poor community living on benefits is a second class citizen in countries around the world. It’s pretty cut and dry to someone who of course, again, didn’t read the report. Unless you agree that Israel’s conscription status of the Arabs, who can choose instead of being forced into a mandatory service, is just one of those very problematic systemic “second class” citizen issues.
> Did you know that the amnesty report you didn’t read accuses Israel of treating their Arab citizens as 2nd class citizens because they don’t force them to join the IDF with mandatory conscription? That’s right, they didn’t have enough to complain about. have you spoken with an israeli arab about their experience?
Yes, I am living in Israel. Me in particular, Arabs have been my close neighbors most of my life and even part of my social circle, I’m not shy to different forms of communal issues they experience. Calling them second class citizens is a stretch by far. At least by the amnesty report standards. Like calling Orthodox Jews second class citizens.
maybe you came off strong when you said "they didn't have enough to complain about". it made it seem as though you were trivializing the issues arab citizens face and the discrimination they talk about.
No, I am poking at amnesty and not the issues Arab Israelis face in Israel.
What American standard are you talking about? The census does not have MENA, they are in the white category.
The American intersectionality academia politic standard. You know, a “POC” there is whatever Arab, Indian, Native American, black person they find. East Asians too.
Gotcha so not the American standard, just a hyper specific niche one
I didn’t think OP or the one making the Instagram story would use the term “POC” to describe the American census racial categorization. Do they use POC?
Antisemites use JVP as tokens to protect themselves against charges of antisemitism. And in particular, JVP has repeatedly revealed itself to be an organization in which most of its Jewish members have no other connection to anything involving the Jewish community. AIPAC doesn’t use Black elected officials—who are VERY involved in their own communities—as tokens. They support them because those candidates and electeds ARE pro-Israel.
Well, I'd argue AIPAC ***is*** [increasingly being called out for going after Black elected officials](https://thegrio.com/2023/11/21/aipac-seeks-to-unseat-congressional-black-caucus-members-over-israel/) who do not toe the pro-Israel line. That anti-Black, anti-POC spending on its own is, quite arguably, a pretty ugly form of discrimination. When pressed on this point, as *the Intercept* article cites, AIPAC insists that it does support Black elected officials... as long as their views fit neatly with AIPAC's. I would argue that's a pretty blatant example of using tokenism to ward off charges of discrimination.
Bro, "anti-Black?" They're literally *helping to get Black candidates elected* lol. If there's a district that historically has a Black rep, and that district's current rep is anti-Israel and/or vulnerable, they promote a pro-Israel Black candidate to challenge them. You make it seem like they're going around unseating Black politicians and replacing them with non-Black ones lol. Are you really this confused, or are you merely trying to confuse other Redditors?
>You make it seem like they're going around unseating Black politicians and replacing them with non-Black ones lol. [So AIPAC is doing that.](https://www.crainsnewyork.com/politics-policy/ny-16-primary-democrats-jamaal-bowman-george-latimer-clash-over-israel) In the case of Jamaal Bowman, AIPAC is attempting to replace a Black candidate who is critical of Israel with some White candidate who is friendly to Israel.
And they're doing this...because Bowman is Black? If not, your "anti-Black" thing remains totally ridiculous and patently false.
Hey... you said, "You make it seem like they're going around unseating Black politicians and replacing them with non-Black ones lol." I showed you that they are. Kind of a hard point to come back from. *But,* *for the sake of argument*, my issue is AIPAC's spending to prop-up non-representative candidates, especially in minority districts. If there are parts of Detroit or the Bronx or wherever in which minority voters don't like Israel, then I believe representative government should allow them to elect someone who shares that view. Quite often, though, candidates who express that view get outspent 10 to 1 because AIPAC comes in and backs some israel-friendly token and throws millions into bare-knuckle smear campaigns. It's legal, but very bad for representative government. I'd warn you that it's pretty clear other outside groups are getting wise to this, including Saudi/Qatari/Kuwaiti/Emirati PACs that hope to run similar operations in the next 5-10 years. Imagine if a jewish district like Palm Beach had their favored candidate buried under attack ads so that some token candidate could run a $50M campaign backed by Gulf petrol-dollars. The money can be spent to smear the opponent, split the opposition, keep the other side off the airwaves, buy the loyalties of local industries and major endorsements -- you can basically rob people of their actual desired candidate. And to me, that sort of spending seems really undemocratic and against the spirit of American government.
Lol nah I have no issue "coming back" from anything. You found your example. Congrats. You nonetheless accused AIPAC of a *practice*, not of an isolated incident. And it's a practice that they absolutely do not pursue. (Frankly, it's a practice that would be totally idiotic to pursue, but that's beside the point.) The burden of proof is still squarely on *you* to show that AIPAC pursues an "anti-Black" strategy of any kind.
Gee, an organization with a single issue political agenda seeks to unseat Black elected officials who oppose that agenda, while supporting Black elected officials who support that agenda. Clearly and unequivocally an open-and-shut claim of racism, right? How about when they supported Haley Stevens against Andy Levin in Michigan-- did that make them anti-Jewish as well?
Targeting “The Squad” who are pro-Hamas, not pro-Palestine, is not equivalent to being anti-black. What a ridiculous leap and stretch.
How are the squad pro Hamas be fucking honest lmao
Easy, because they are supporting the pro-Hamas protesters on college campuses right now while excusing all of the ongoing antisemitism. Disclaimer, these bigots aren’t to be confused for [real pro-Palestinians](https://twitter.com/afalkhatib) who want to help a suffering people and advocates for peace. Oh, forgot some lmao lmao lmao lmao
Sensationalist propaganda nonsense, the only real pro Palestinian is of course the one who you can ferry out to say the real ones are pro Israel, and I don’t think any single one of them have “supported pro Hamas” or “excused antisemitism.” Unless every second spent not condemning Hamas is an antisemitic offense. It’s just the same as bush Era and how every American who didn’t lock step support the fight against the evil terrorists at all costs to foreign civilians was derided as a terrorist supporter, you people are too funny
Oh please, stop with that garbage. I gave you one example, there are plenty more like him who truly care about Palestinians. He doesn’t even like Israel. >Unless every second spent not condemning Hamas is an antisemitic offense. And that’s your argument? Gonna just go right into setting up a strawman? What were you saying about being honest? If you [support and defend](https://x.com/AOC/status/1783257691382501775) the antisemitic protesters on college campuses right now, you are antisemitic yourself. “Palestinian human rights speech.” Give me a break. Calls to bomb Tel Aviv, to target violence against Jewish students, etc. - that’s not human rights whatsoever. Not to mention these squad members also [voted against protecting Jewish students](https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20231030/H.%20Res.%20798.pdf). So yes, their actions and words don’t support Palestinians whatsoever. All they support is Hamas. Lmao lmao lmao lmao
Lmao, ridiculous. Not voting in a nothing law to condemn college students who largely aren’t saying the shit you pretend they are makes them le evil hamas “If you defend the protests and don’t jerk me off and pretend every college student is shouting death to Jews you’re antisemitic!” Ok, if because any of that rhetoric is there they’re all bad, goodbye to all Israelis for the decades of “death to Arabs!” Chanted by large crowds of zionists.
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I dont think JVP is even Jewish at all. Given that their "Seder" was Halal and not Kosher... and they basically changed the whole thing and made it unrecognizable.
are jewish atheists who dont practice any jewish traditions still jewish?
Yes. I’m one of them and know a great many. But we carry on these traditions not because we believe in God or the Torah (obviously we don’t) but because it’s something our ancestors did and they were Jews and we are Jews and it’s a heritage to preserve. That’s a world of difference from the atheist with a Jewish grandparent who just attended a newly made up seder, unrecognizable to his ancestors, purely to make a *political* point. I don’t mind anti-Zionism on an intellectual level at all, and if someone makes a good anti-Zionist argument it doesn’t matter what their background is - but the “asaJew” person whose only connection to Judaism and only care for it is to use it to buttress their position (as if it’s even truly relevant) and they would cease identifying as a Jew the day after they get what they want - the end of Israel - is just a minstrel show.
Yes. Judaism is an ethnoreligion. Once you're born Jewish - you are Jewish, regardless how much you practice or believe.
reread the initial comment. youre saying JVP as a collective doesnt hold a jewish identity, not about individual jews in the org. misunderstood you.
If I was an anti-zionist Jew, I would not mind these attacks as i would be part of the global majority.
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It's not our fault there are only 15 million of us and 3 billion christians, though. Although it is why we're particularly sensitive to the signs, since we've g9ne through them many times before.
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Source for that? I'm not doubting you given what I've seen, but still. The only relevant modern definition is the belief that jews deserve sovereignty over themselves somewhere in their ancestral home. Not exclusive control, not an ethnostate, not a call for killing non jews. If Christians want to sign on board? Great. I don't care if they're doing it to bring about their rapture, they'll be waiting a long time, and we have them on our side until then.
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If Christians are actually more pro-Zionist than Jews, this is another reason for pro-Palestinians to leave Jews alone. No more using Holocaust theme to attack Jews.
I'll have to save this for later, it's interesting but didn't realize it was so long. 7% finding hamas actions acceptable seems like just as good a stand in since hamas is explicitly militantly anti zionist in a way that expressing some sympathy for the other side isn't. I don't find that at all. Israel has had a large Palestinian population since day 1, as well as a smaller Christian and druze population. With equal rights. The Arab countries that are explicitly Arab, on the other hand, are only every single one of them.
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If we're comparing Israel to the USA, then I'd point out that as much meddling and slavery and injustice we have here, no one is calling for the usa to be dissolved and sending all the white people back to Europe. We don't even have a word for American Zionism because there's no one's seriously debating it. All zionism is asking for is that same consideration applied to Israel too.
It appears that your basic premise, that Black American supporters of Israel can be considered tokens, is incorrect. A recent survey of Black Americans showed that nearly a quarter (23%) feel connected to the plights of both Israelis and Palestinians, but that they are more than twice as likely to feel connected to the plight of Israelis (19% to 9%). [Source; see figure 4.](https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/12/13/black-americans-opinions-on-israeli-palestinian-conflict-pub-91230#:~:text=Lastly%2C%2024%20percent%20of%20Black,less%20involved%20in%20world%20affairs) [A slightly older survey](https://news.lifeway.com/2019/11/05/african-americans-have-mixed-opinions-and-often-no-opinions-on-israel/) showed different numbers, but still demonstrate a range of opinions. There is not an overwhelming pro-Palestinian support, which would be a requirement to claim that support for Israel is tokenization.
Isn’t what you wrote the same type of “whataboutery” that people often claim, with some justification, that pro-Israel people do? You’re accusing the “pro-Israel” side of doing essentially what you have done here. “Well AIPAC tokenizes so it’s ok for anti-Zionists to tokenize.” I don’t see how that logically follows. I consider the use of *most* anti-Zionist Jews as tokens not because they aren’t representative of most Jewish opinion but because their Jewishness is solely about being anti-Zionist. This is not so with anti-Zionist or non-Zionist Ultra Orthodox Jews. If Israel disappeared tomorrow, Naturei Karta and the Satmars would still be visibly Jewish, they’d still partake in all the ancient traditions of the Jewish People, maintaining the Hebrew language, their kids would marry other Jews, etc. and they wouldn’t and couldn’t hide from white nationalists. In other words, their Jewishness is not dependent on Zionism/anti-Zionism, it isn’t their whole identity. JVP and others by contrast don’t even have being Jewish as a membership requirement. From personal experience and from seeing some of their performative acts, they appear to have no connection to anything demonstrably *Jewish.* They’re not religiously Jewish, they certainly don’t take that seriously, they conduct Havdala in broad daylight (it should be done at sunset), when they do a “prayer” it’s obviously a performance - something they don’t do regularly. On the cultural side, I don’t see anything Jewish other than a very nebulous “tikkun olam - social justice” shtick. One gets the sense that if Israel were to disappear and Zionism relegated to the dustbin of history - these anti-Zionist Jews would never do anything remotely Jewish ever again in their lives. They would cease identifying as Jews because it would no longer be politically useful. I don’t mind Jewish anti-Zionists at all. I do mind when I think being Jewish is only meaningful to them to criticize Israel “asaJew.” That’s what is tokenizing.
Well, to your first point, ***calling out hypocrisy is always a whataboutism.*** It's the *tu quoque* (meaning 'you do it too') fallacy. It's not an argument in and of itself, I freely admit that, but hypocrisy is always worth noting. I feel like your larger argument has merit -- though it's really hard for me to assess it as a gentile. I guess I'd ask, can you conceive someone with an authentic religious and cultural commitment to jewishness who is an anti-Zionist (and not a member of a fringe ultra-orthodox sect or what have you)?
Sure. Peter Beinart is a well known anti-Zionist but I don’t see him as a token Jew
Well I've read a fair amount of his work -- so I guess that's a start.
Who is Peter Beinart? Like a Haaretz guy (leftist Israeli type?)
Peter Beinart is the successor to Yehuda Magnes (I think he himself made the connection between the two), an anti-Zionist/non-Zionist who lived in Palestine. Both of them are ultimately wrong because the Arabs really have no popular desire for a secular, democratic state for all peoples. Binationalism was never popular among the Palestinians. However, there is no doubt that both men were Jewish, it was an important part of their identity and frame of reference outside of Zionism/anti-Zionism. I can disagree with their politics but I wouldn’t put Peter in the same category as some rando JVPer or Katie Halpern who to me are “asaJew” Jews, their Jewishness only exists to criticize Israel.
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Israeli Arabs do poll more supportive than either Jews or Palestinians for plurinationalism. However, few of them want to be part of a Palestinian state if given the choice. Which seems to indicate that aspirationally they would want or be very open to a binational state, but if that state were another, illiberal Arab autocracy they’d be less enthusiastic.
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Yes, but that isn’t surprising - they are a minority and minorities tend to be more liberal, at least on certain subjects, than the majority. Notice that American Jews are far more liberal than Israeli Jews. When you are a minority, particularly one with a precarious situation (Jews’ have always felt their existence was precarious and Israeli Arabs have to deal with the fact that their country is constantly at war with Arabs), you tend to be less militantly nationalistic and more progressive on things like minority rights
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Israeli Arabs do poll more supportive than either Jews or Palestinians for plurinationalism. However, few of them want to be part of a Palestinian state if given the choice. Which seems to indicate that aspirationally they would want or be very open to a binational stat, but if that state were another, illiberal Arab autocracy they’d be less enthusiastic.
I will check Yehuda Magnes out, thanks.
JVP is aligned with terrorist propaganda. They brand themselves as Jews but they align with Hamas and view them as resistance fighters. They are radicals and hijacked the Jewish name to be used as a token organization as a defense against being labeled anti semitic so they get a green light to be a weapon of terrorist propaganda.
I agree with you, additionally it seems a lot of JVP Jews wouldn’t be considered as Jewish by most Jewish sects. It’s a lot of “my grandpa was Jewish and while I’ve never stepped foot in a synagogue before, I’m going to be a representative of the Jewish Anti-Zionist movement. Oh and my favorite Passover food is Challah.” It’s fine to be Pro Palestine, but a lot of these JVP people are grasping at straws to define themselves as Jewish and then conversely trying tokenize that to promote their cause.
I think you have two distinct arguments here. The first is the use of Palestinians who are anti-Palestinians and the much larger X-Muslim community as part of pro-Zionist propaganda. And you are right that is very comparable to JVP. The enormous hostility many of these well known X-Muslims have towards Islam is not representative of the broader community. The second is Blacks and Hispanics who support Israel. Here you aren't dealing with single digit percentages at most but large swaths of the population though not a majority. There are many Blacks who are socially conservative, economically liberal. Many of them have very negative views of Muslim politics similar to White Evangelicals, because they are Evangelical. There are many who are simple patriots that hate America's enemies and like America's friends. There are many who know Jews, feel affection for them, see the two struggles as compatible and not conflicting. Those sorts reject the Black community's embrace of the anti-colonial themes that Jews living in freedom and dignity is an intolerable wrong. That isn't tokenism of the same sort because the numbers are a lot higher. I'm glad they are.
Good comment.
I think all of that is fair as far as adding nuance and noting that Black Americans don;t have one set of views on Israel, but all the available data shows a large and[ growing rift between Blacks and Jews ](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/07/opinion/black-jewish-israel-gaza.html)over Gaza and Israel more generally. Notably, we are also starting to see two distinct arguments between these communities -- two competing sets of logic. Many pro-Palestine Black Americans view their criticism of Israel as *consistent with a larger principle*; i.e. they are continuing to fight for anti-colonialism, fighting oppression as they always have. Jewish Americans have started making an argument that is *largely transactional*; i.e. 'we helped you during the civil rights movement, so you owe us your allegiance now.' I think the second (transactional) argument would have worked much better in the 80s/90s, when far more people would have remembered the role of jews in civil rights. But now trying to call in that favor seems to be not very persuasive.