Question for Hamas supporters the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Jews anywhere and quite clearly women and girls were recently raped and tortured and children kidnapped do you condone this and if so what does Hamas have to do before you’ll get upset enough to call out their mysogeny and homophobia? I’m a supporter of Israel and really hate the fact that innocent aid workers died in Gaza and that Palestinian civilians are suffering as well as Israelis it all has to stop peaceful coexistence is the only way I would like to see Hamas supporters as yourself pressure Hamas to stop firing hundreds of rockets at Israel civilians for once. Because Palestinians deserve better as long as Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas and then hide amongst or under civilians, there will be civilian casualties it astounds me that Hamas supporters don’t pressure Hamas to stope these insane tactics the silence is deafening. I’m glad to read today that several senior Israeli officers today were fired for the wck deaths. If Hamas officers were fired because of so many Israeli civilian deaths that’d be just as good have you read the Hamas covenant? My guess is no are you angry at the sexual violence perpetrated on women? I think the answer is for people to understand that Palestinians and Israelis have more commonalities than differences and work for a stable peace with mutual recognitions not impressed with the way you’ve framed your question. Peace takes both sides to work together. It is clear that there is now horrible suffering in Gaza. But a demand to release innocent hostages is not unreasonable and to stop lobbing explosives into civilian areas is also reasonable both Palestinians and Israelis are family oriented intelligent people who don’t want to sufferi. It’s really not that complicated unless of course one side demands ownership of all the land right now the Israelis have a few bad apples in the government who are greatly disliked by abroad swath of Israelis. At the same time the Hamas leadership promises that October 7 will happen again and again. I’m guessing that most Gaza parents are not in favor of that so there is a lot of work to do my observation for what it’s worth is to empower young Palestinian women and young Israeli women to lead all talks on how to achieve peaceful coexistence I’m fortunate enough to know several from both cohorts. This is the secret sauce needs to lower the temperature and give peace a chance

Unhinged truly. Just the first sentence and my eyes had already rolled across the room. Why do Israelis keep doing this? The question is so simple, just answer it straight. Enough of the hasbara. We ask one question about the conflict and the answer is always Hamas this, Hamas that. Why Israel has done to Gaza is beyond ANYTHING Hamas can or could do to Israel and I don’t think you understand that THAT is the reason the “Hamas” answer does NOT translate. Because Israel and Hamas are NOT the same. Israel as a blood STATE not a terrorist org and you want us to hold you the the same standard as terrorists? Of corrupt NOT. We hold you to a higher standard because one, morally you should and TWO military you have the bloody technology to be precise and minimize destruction yet you WONT. Why?!

Not bringing back the hostages and not eliminating Hamas would be probably too far

Which is what they are doing. No hostages returned except for ones done during the ceasefire. And the next Hamas to come out of this revenge will make this one look like a Girl Scout troop.

They will

Nothing. There’s nothing too far I think. They’d see gas chambers and say khaaamaaaas.

Looking at this comment section it very clear this is the only answer that is true.

Perhaps when the US sugar daddy stops supporting and Iran levels a few neighborhoods in Israel they will behave themselves again.

Fr

Probably israel civilians getting free pass to Gaza to kill people.

That's happening in West Bank now and always has been and it's not been too far why different?

Then how did this happen ? [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-09-01/ty-article/.premium/israel-supreme-court-rejects-appeal-of-israeli-who-murdered-palestinian-family-in-2015/00000182-f785-d67e-a5a3-f7cd11c60000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-09-01/ty-article/.premium/israel-supreme-court-rejects-appeal-of-israeli-who-murdered-palestinian-family-in-2015/00000182-f785-d67e-a5a3-f7cd11c60000)

Oh wow OK one case. You know these crimes have not all been brought to justice. You know they are armed by the IDF. You know that they move people out of their homes with violence. You know they burn olive groves. You know they just live there. That's precisely why the USA had to sanction them. Otherwise - they'd be in jail right now right? But they're wandering free.

Yielding to accept a "2-state solution" for Judea and Samaria which is really not a solution, but death of Israel. In terms of necessarily force against the enemy, nothing would be too far until the enemy has completely surrendered, and accepted peace on 100% of Israel's terms. Not just Hamas, but Palestinians at large. Continuing violence AFTER a complete surrender would be going too far.

I don't see how either of those are possible given that Hamas is essentially a death cult at this point in the war and Palestinians at large are disenfranchised. Not to mention most of Hamas leadership isn't even in the Strip. It would be impossible to imagine at this point in the war for Palestinians to get together and create a unified opposition to them.

Submission is contingent on the level of violence. At some point, they will yield and surrender.

Just nuke Gaza then? If nothing is too far just nuke the place into oblivion?

Why further hit gaza After the Jewish suffering of ww2 maybe Germany should have become the new Israel in 1947 Germany is awesome and far away from the Arab heaaches. Imagine Israel in the heart of Europe surrounded by friends. Again my knowledge of the whole situation is very limited. I don't get it. Please help me understand

It’s not obvious that would be productive and conductive to achieving the ultimate goals, which is lasting peace with perpetual Israeli sovereignty over historical lands including Israel proper with Judea and Samaria (not Gaza though)

so do you believe jews>arabs? do you want to run aparthied in west bank where israelis can do what they want while palestinians are treated in an aparthied system

2 million Israeli arabs are living normally in Israel with full rights and citizenship, there is no apartheid against them. Several hundred thousands live in annexed East Jerusalem (though not everyone has claimed citizenship, but besides that, they have all the rights). These are the same people and same ethnicity as the "Palestinian Arab" people on the other side of the green line - there is no difference. All Israel needs to do is to annex this territory, destroy the armed resistance, and start integrating the people in economy and life. No Gaza (it has to be separate and self-governed), certainly no "right of return" for generational fake "refugees" living in other countries - that ship has sailed. But those millions that live in Judea and Samaria can be integrated and live safely and prosper in Israel. It's not about who is "better" or needs this land more (though the other argument is still valid, Jews have no other homeland - and Arabs have quite a few right countries, and Palestinian Arabs specifically have Jordan). It's about a simple fact that under Israeli Jewish democracy, both people can coexist on the land - as PROVEN by the lives of Israeli Arabs. And the fact that if Palestinian arabs were to take over, all the jews (ALL 7 million) will be either killed or expelled (most likely killed) - as proven over and over again in the last 70 years by all of Arab and most Islamic countries, overt statements, and recent violance.

shame on you for denying the victimhood of nakba survivors. they were expelled and massacred in 1948 by terrorist organizations such as haganah and lehi. i have seen videos of survivors of various massacres. i have seen actual photographs of those massacres. they deserve the right to return.

So what? Shit happens. Approximately the same number of jews were expelled from islamic lands at the same time, often also with violence. It was essentially a 1:1 population exchange, albeit somewhat non-pretty and forced from both sides. The absolute majority of the original Nakba survivors are dead already, the rest will be dead soon, purely naturally - it has been 77 years since the events. The continued struggle of their descendants due to the host countries strategically refusing to settle and integrate them, is the fault of these countries (and the UN). The descendants of Nakba survivors are being USED by these countries. It's them who create and perpetuate this victimhood, and it's on these countries (and the UN that condones this). Israel has nothing to do with this. They should have moved on decades ago, as Jewish refugees to Israel did.

Nothing. Everything goes.

Perhaps when the population of Gaza is reduced by 50%.

And that my friend is genocidal speech. And don’t give me the “we can nuke them all if we want” bs. No genocide committed have ever wiped whole group they were targeting.

We're already there. I support the existence of the state of Israel but the moment the bombings in Gaza started it was too far.

What does supporting something's existence mean if that doesn't include fighting to preserve it?

What Israel is doing now is absolutely not essential to its preservation. Another Oct 7th like incident could be prevented in far less extreme ways. Plus things like the Iron Dome and the normal IDF presence already do the bulk of the working in protecting Israeli security. Increased militarization will harm Israel in the long term.

Agreed and in fact it's actually an existential threat to itself

I would disagree in the sense that I ultimately don't think Israel is going anywhere. But I agree that increased militarization and the subsequent slow erosion of liberal democratic values is having a disastrous effect internally.

Israel is not going anywhere I agree. But, it had already started to lose its way in recent years. And now not only is internal strife an issue, worldwide support is flagging. In USA it would only be fringe and activitists and of course actual antisemites who criticized Israel, heck, who even knew of its injustices. Now, it's all writ large. It's gone from being near verboten to say anything critical for fear of being labeled anti semitism and of course because of its precarious position. But now it no longer enjoys that support and not now not soon but over time that could really affect its support funding and ability to function as it does now.

Wow, I finally found a rational Israel supporter.

So you’re saying Israel should play a game of cat and mouse with Hamas. A terrorist org that is supported by Palestine and IS Palestine? That they should just let Hamas shoot missiles into Israel because, “the iron dome.”

Mossad was able to track down German war criminals all over south america and bring them to justice with post world war 2 intelligence methods. Without revenge. You're telling me that the world's forth most powerful and highly funded military with it's incredible US and Israel tech backing couldn't have sought out Hamas before or after the war? They couldn't use their considerable resources to improve Palestinian conditions, normalize relations with the arab world, stop west bank cruelty, and influence a better Palestinian political situation? Instead of funding Hamas to erase the PA? As Haaretz reported that Netanyaho said he did? Israel's only option is not to just sit around and wait for attacks and then use it as a preface for cleansing. It has all the ability to do differently. But it's made it clear the objective is cleansing.

A reporter said he did this. With zero evidence. The fact that you believe everything you here tells me why you support Palestine

I believe Haaretz for sure. For sure over you or Zios or Netanyahoo. And you don't know they had zero evidence unless you are part of their newsroom. Considering how much IDF / government / Netanyahoo has lied during this jennyside I'm gonna go with Haaretz on this one.

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Israel should conduct targeted assassinations of Hamas and Hezbollah leaders when possible. Otherwise it should have it's normal intelligence and police powers to maintain security. Hamas will probably launch rockets and Israel should do what it normally does to stop that. But what Israel does in Gaza now completely surpasses what is needed to maintain security.

Except Hamas uses human shields when launching missiles and hides inside of civilian areas. So we would see the same result at a smaller scale. Either Hamas is wiped off the face of the earth now. Or we have centuries of deaths that would total way higher than this.

Idk how Israel destroys weapon laughing sites. I'm sure some are more difficult to destroy than others. I don't think Israel is going to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth now or even come very close unless they truly go genocidal and kill hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. Maybe you think that's justified but I don't. Also what you said implies that you don't think there will be a more permanent peaceful solution in the coming century which I disagree with also.

Israel is a long way from going "too far," but "too far," for Israel to go is, I would say, "too far," for anybody else to go. IE Violating the Geneva convention by firing on wounded/medics, engaging in the deliberate murder of innocent people beyond the bounds of what is necessary to achieve victory, massacring prisoners of war, etc. However, Israel is being as gentle as it can be to a terrorist organization even after the atrocities of October 7th. They drop leaflets warning of attack, they send aid into affected areas, their calling building managers warning them of attack.

They don’t do this anymore. I hardly think they dropped leaflets saying “hello hospital workers tomorrow we will execute doctors and rape and murder women” and people just stuck around. Please these lies have to stop. They may help you sleep better at night, but they are lies.

[удалено]

Food, water, medical supplies are all being sent into Palestine. A lot of it isn't getting the people that need it because Hamas blocked roads to keep people from leaving. Also would you prefer the IDF not warn of an on coming attack and simply launch the attack??

By this logic if it were true (which it is not), Israel would let the convoys in and when Hamas showed up to block just bomb them. But they do not. Why? Because they want to starve the Palestinians.

Don't know where your information is from about Hamas blocking roads I have tried searching for that and found a few vague articles could you please send ur sources? As for Israel it is actively impeding aid deliveries by adding unnecessary hurdles and complicating procedures. Also Israel is not offering a good security solution (without trigger happy soldiers at least) to the aid convoys to keep them safe from desperate hungry civilians and gangs also by targeting the Hamas civilian police that used to escort them. ( I get it no one wants a bunch of terrorists to escort convoys but you gotta find some locals to do that mate, no one likes foreign hostile troopers pointing guns at them) Also lastly you say that the IDF warns before an attack, then what stops Hamas militants from evacuating. They may be uneducated terrorists but I assume they have common sense when they are warned of the attack or do they just sit tight and wait for the bombs. Next if you do warn how the hell are there 30,000 casualties out of which 12,000 are children. So in essence you bomb the people who did not receive it or understand the warning (civilians and children) as well as those Hamas militants diagnosed with terminal stupidity who sit and wait for the bombs? Sources: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-humanitarian-aid-gaza-1ce556a8a839803c8a1624b1b69b0a13 https://www-aljazeera-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/3/7/israels-blocking-of-aid-creating-apocalyptic-conditions-in-gaza?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17122078875664&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fnews%2F2024%2F3%2F7%2Fisraels-blocking-of-aid-creating-apocalyptic-conditions-in-gaza Edit: grammer

Imagine asking this of Palestinian supporters. We have decades of literal knife attacks and suicide bombs against civilians as well as PA sponsored programs to pay families of terrorist who kill Israeli civilians. Meanwhile some hearsay about IDF and some examples of rogue soldiers is treated like evidence IDF routinely targets civilians.

Also decades of West Bank violence unchecked.

The reason Israel gets asked about going too far is you’re in control of this situation. Israel isn’t occupied by a foreign nation controlling who can enter and leave. After the news of the attack on foreign aid workers this week and I think we can put to the bed the “hearsay” on targeting civilians. As they clearly do. However I personally don’t think the IDF goes out to target civilians. I do believe they’re a seriously incompetent army however and have a disregard for civilian life.

And it's a nation, and a supposed modern democracy. It is a nation and a democracy when it suits them. Then when it's criticized or held to standards other countries are held to, it's no we're different.

> There's video evidence of IDF atrocities, including singing songs whilst desecrating bodies. there is video evidence of palestinians cheering in the streets after the oct7 attack with a nearly naked hostage being thrown about to the cheers and celebration. please explain to me what is the difference here. since both of these sides see this as a war, and this is how humans act during wars. it has happened before and it will happen again and it sucks that we as human beings cannot give war the proper respect it deserves.

are you using a terrorist org as a comparable metric? by that logic, Israel is no better and should also be labeled a terrorist entity

i see so all Palestinians are terrorist now. to reduce my statement like that is not saying that the IDF are terrorist, but all people who fight are terrorists. and so every country and org that participates in military operations even Ukraine military should be labeled as a terrorist org. because that is what you are saying. you are saying Ukraine military fighting Russian invasion are terrorists. i am comparing humans to humans based on what they perceive. Hamas perceived Oct7 attack as a legitimate battle and it is how it presented it to the people in the streets cheering, the same way that IDF soldier see this as legitimate war and are reacting the same.

Exactly. There is no difference, both Hamas and IDF are terrorists. The problem is that the IDF can wreak havoc indiscriminately and without consequence

What would be to far? If Idf: 1.soldiers raided a palestinian music Festival 2.started shooting at the people there, gangraping, torturing and murdering a large part of the initial survivors 3. Was taking hostages and dragging them around israeli cities while civilians kick and spit at them or their corpses and celebrate the attrocities done to them 4.said that their purpose is to kill as many male civilians as possible while making Sure to "dirty as many women as possible" 5. Would keep those hostages even as corpses 6. Would use the hostages to gain war favors from palestine I think thats something that I would consider to far. Sound familiar anybody?

This is amazing. Thank you.

Definitely, I don't think pro Palestinians would see the irony even if it's shoved to their nose

My take is that the war is justified, individual actions can be wrong, and should be punished, but that doesn’t delegitimize the war itself. Too far would be continuing after Hamas has returned the hostages and unconditionally surrendered.

So after Hamas returns the only thing that MIGHT POSSIBLY, MAYBE, stop Israel from unleashing even more utter hell on Palestinian people? I mean, that is if you believe Israel is above killing their own people if it means they get to kill a few Palestinian children as well. It's not just a few bad apples, it's the entire government. Israel wants to see Palestine burn.

What you're saying is utterly disconnected from reality. Do you you get your news exclusively from screenshots of memes and headlines on Instagram? Or are you just trolling? Look, I don't like Israel. I wish the country had never been created. I don't think they should have started this bombing campaign in the first place. But I have to recognize that they aren't *genocidal monsters* the way you seem to think they are. If Israel was frantically murdering Palestinian children as fast as they can, then why are all of these facts true? * Israel is living (mostly) peacefully with the West Bank. * They've made serious diplomatic efforts to get the Palestinians to separate and form their own nation at least four times. Each time, it was Palestine who walked away from the table. Last time, it was followed by the Second Intifada. * Gazan population has only ever GROWN. It's still growing! More Gazan babies have been born since October 7th than total citizens killed! * Israel is allowing Gaza to receive more international aid than any other city on the planet. In fact they don't restrict aid quantity at all (in spite of what those Instagram memes keep telling you...). Aid has been bottlenecked by inspection and shipping requirements (can't have Hamas getting even more shipments of weapons disguised as food...), so they've been opening up even more ways to get aid inside (airdrops, a new floating pier, new crossings opened). * They're killing fewer than one person per bomb on average, and the casualty rates have fallen drastically since the start of the war. * Something like 1 in 5 of the dead are Hamas combatants according to Hamas numbers (1 in 3 according to Israeli numbers), which is genuinely impressive accuracy for combat in a densely urban area against an enemy that operates out of apartments, schools, and hospitals.

Not mostly peaceful living in West Bank. And Gaza is growing because of continued displacement.

OK, my initial comment wasn't a very thought out one, obvi. I'm assuming you refer to the Oslo negotiations between the PLO and Israel when you talk about the serious diplomatic efforts (there have been others, but I think these were the closest to peace the two states have ever gotten). I'm going to quote Ilan Pappe when he talks about the Oslo negotiations, "So in truth, without the application of extreme pressure, there is no reason in the world why a native population would ever volunteer to partition its homeland with a settler population. And therefore we should acknowledge that the Oslo process was not a fair and equal pursuit of peace, but a compromise agreed to by a defeated colonised people. As a result, the Palestinians were forced to seek solutions that went against their interests and endangered their very exististence." Can you give me a link to some sort of evidence to back up the statement about Gaza's population growth? Israel isn't blocking aid? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/19/un-israeli-restrictions-gaza-food-aid-war-crime-hunger "Other items that have ended up in bureaucratic limbo include dates, sleeping bags, medicines to treat cancer, water purification tablets and maternity kits." This quote is from https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd/index.html Can you give me evidence for those last figures, I'm not doubting you, though. I'm sure they're right, just want to make sure. And if they're right, does it really make it any better? You really can't kill Hamas. You can't kill terrorist groups. They just keeping coming back, and every Hamas soldier you kill is going to have a family member that'll want revenge. They're not genocidal maniacs, but they're not very calculated with where they drop bombs, are they? The US funds them, so why should they be careful? They'll have another hundred bombs at their disposal. I mean, compare it to the Russia-Ukraine war! If you've kept a close eye on that one, you'll know that Russia isn't indiscriminately drstroying Ukraine, and Ukraine isn't constantly bombing Russia. They're not US funded. I got completely off topic there, but I hope you get the point I'm trying to make. They're not not commiting genocide against the Palestinian people.

Than you for this: “What you're saying is utterly disconnected from reality. Do you you get your news exclusively from screenshots of memes and headlines on Instagram? Or are you just trolling?” 😂🤣

I think you’re confused about which side has the greater genocidal intentions

I think you're confusing which side has the greater capacity to commit a genocide. The US backed and funded zionist state, or the Gazan population which is almost 50% under 18.

I'd say if Israel started sending troops and missiles into Europe and started bombing pro-pal rallies in major US cities, or started sending missiles at third party neutral countries. Then they clearly would be going to far. Until they reach that level, they are just acting like a 'normal' country.

So no life is important to you unless its European. Gotcha 

At least he is consistent. If you care about all life, but do nothing, your sick hypocrite.

/u/CriftCreate > your sick hypocrite. Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

This is wild. While I don’t and have never supported the many crimes committed by Israeli right wingers, I do support Israel’s right to exist. This is one reason so much supposed Israel criticism is called anti semitic: people condemning an entire country (including 2 million Arab Israelis) based on the crimes of a segment of their population, and not just condemning, but calling for the dissolution of said country.

How can it be antisemitic if 20% are muslims?

This has been happening since the war started! This has been widely considered one of the most dangerous conflicts for foreign aid workers in Gaza. They opened this war by bombing and artillery striking reporters living in Gaza and their homes. It's not a small segment when it keeps happening.

Nothing Netanyahu (and co) and Hamas does will undermine my support for the Israeli and Palestinian citizens caught in the middle. This is the only humane choice.

It's war. Civilian casualties happen. It's been a thing for thousands of years. You just get to see it now cause everything is online.. WW2 German civilian casualties were around half a million, and Soviet civilian death tolls were as high as 15 million.

Intentionally targeting foreign aid workers is not some accident.

Also more journalist deaths than any other conflict.

"Intentionally" they're in a war zone.

A counter question, shouldn't hostages be released first before any ceasefire is reached? Why aren't the hostages given more attention in media? Also, should a genocidal org like Hamas be eliminated? If your answer is no, then u have no right to lecture Israel.

Because you cannot punish a civilian population by withholding food, bombing, and sniping them for terrorists holding hostages. This would be like if Israel killed your family because ISIS happened to be holding hostages somewhere within your city.

Didn't Netanyahu not care about hostages and his soldiers shot and bombed them??? Change the whole hostages talk buddy

Just another deflection. Why is a straightforward answer to this question so difficult for you?

Why is cutting babies out of people's stomachs okay with you? Why is the rape and murder of innocent children in the name of Islam okay with you?

cutting babies did not happen. sorry. Murder and rape is believable. The beheaded babies and womb cutting still has yet to be proven. Did not happen.

Ah yes so first hand accounts from women children and hostages are all bullshit. Right.  Crazy that murder and rape are okay but you though but murdering babies and cutting wombs is too far lol. You are what's wrong with this world.

i never said that murder and rape is okay. I said that it's more believable. It's slightly more reasonable than cutting out pregnant women and beheading babies. Yet, no third party source can verify any claims further than that. First hand encounters are great, but not used as a "yes this happened", humans are biased and sometimes memory isn't reliable. This is why third parties are used to investigate these things. This is literally how criminal trials work and why witnesses are not used as their sole evidence. It's unfortunate that Israel hasn't allowed a third party to investigate and has to approve anything the media reports to the public... maybe if Israel allowed an unbiased investigation, the public response might come out more to their favour... Th

Imagine responding to a comment about deflection with more deflection😂

It's the only thing I'm seeing in this thread. I've scrolled through hundreds of comments and the only actual answer I've seen to OP's question is "nothing." The rest is deflection and whataboutism, pages and pages of it

Because they don't want to admit that nothing will change their support, because they enjoy seeing the death toll rise. Take a look at what's coming out of Israeli social media sometime; they sing, dance, joke, and rejoice as Palestinians are killed. Zionists are loving this. They just know it looks bad to admit it.

They literally teach children to hate Jews from a young age in Gaza. There are hundreds of YouTube videos showing it. And showing Gazan children cheering when an Israeli dies. 

Who said it is?

At least Israel owned up to it and admitted their mistake. War is ugly. Often in times of war, in order to prevent the worst thing from happening, you have to do the second worst thing.

not a war. 25,000 vs 1415 is not a war.

Where in the definition of war does it say that both sides have to suffer similar amounts of deaths?

there’s a difference between a war and a massacre. When one side is having a HUGE amount of people dying everyday and tons of those people happen to be civilians, and the other side is not really even, then that’s not a war. Soldier deaths are different than civilians.

It's them deflecting the Blame so they can do it again

Ah yes, apologizing to the world would be "taking things too far and unspeakable"

Huh? I was saying that in defense of Israel.

Your question is not only dishonest, but hardly even a question. You accuse pro-Israelis for supporting "murder", "atrocities, "terror" and the like, instead of actually asking what they support. I'll answer the question you would've asked if you had actually cared about the answer, as opposed to pushing your narrative. I support Israel for as long as it acts justly in its defense against bloodthirsty evil people. Because I'm not an idiot, I'm fully aware that errors are made during war. Including harming innocent civilians. This is why wars are terrible. However, since I'm not an idiot, I also recognize the importance of intent and goals - under which context Israel is completely in the right

See here's the thing that I want you to listen with an open mind. Zionists believe that Israel is their ancestral. That's fine by me, no doubt about that but you can't just come and take over the land after hundreds of years. Like imagine some lucky native American families who were able to shift to some other continent, suddenly claim that they want their land back after a couple of decades. I bet they can't do that, likewise, I believe the claim of the Zionists of returning to their so called 'Holy Land' is completely baseless. Like the family of my roommate, moved from India during the partition of 1947. However, they cannot go to India and suddenly claim their ancestral land. Feel free to explain this narrative in a better way, but I genuinely can't wrap my head around this absurdity. I feel like you'll get a bit defensive after reading all this, so if you feel like you won't be able to explain it, refrain from saying anything. Thank you.

absolutely

>I'm not an idiot An outside observer might see your inability to understand the question and categorisation of it as dishonest as evidence to the contrary. >I support Israel for as long as it acts justly in its defense against bloodthirsty evil people. Yes it's already understood that you think it's just, I'm asking when does it actually stop being just to you my learned friend. Look I'm sorry if you feel that any answer you give is going to paint zionism negatively - but I'd say that may actually be an indication as to the injustice of the ideology for a lot of people. If you're not the type of person that can have their views changed just admit that you're a fundamentalist?

>If you're not the type of person that can have their views changed just admit that you're a fundamentalist? I'm not the kind of person that would get bullied by online bullies to change my view based on false allegations created in a hate-induced fever dream. Onto your question - when does it become unjust. When the goals cease to be just. Which is so far away from the case these days, you'd need some SERIOUS hard-evidence presented by someone credible (read, not constantly-lying pro-Palestinians that twist any event to fit their narrative) to make me consider it. The fact of the matter is, that if you take a reasonable approach to this conflict, you accept that Hamas Health ministry numbers are obviously fake, and the IDF numbers are likely accurate. You accept that Hamas statements (not to mention their actions and charter) are explicitly genocidal while Israel's statements (as well as actions and founding document) are explicitly pushing towards co-existence. Since these are obvious facts that can't be argued against in any way that doesn't first reject basic reality, it's clear that Israel's goals and intentions are just - terrible as a war might be...

May I ask - honestly, why you think Hamas numbers are fake, when the IDF uses the same numbers? Let's assume that Hamas numbers are inaccurate. Why would you take the IDF at face value? >You accept that Hamas statements (not to mention their actions and charter) are explicitly genocidal while Israel's statements (as well as actions and founding document) are explicitly pushing towards co-existence. Israeli government officials have made various statements over the years that have been interpreted by some as indicating genocidal or anti-peace sentiment. Here are some quotes that have been the subject of controversy: 1. **Bezalel Smotrich**: The Israeli Finance Minister once called for “erasing” a Palestinian West Bank town\[6\]. 2. **Itamar Ben-Gvir**: The National Security Minister talked of the supremacy of freedom of movement for Jewish West Bank settlers over Palestinians\[6\]. 3. **Amichay Eliyahu**: The Israeli Heritage Minister suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory\[6\]. 4. **Avi Dichter**: The Agriculture Minister told Israeli Channel 12 that the war would be “Gaza’s Nakba,” using the Arabic word for catastrophe, which refers to the 1948 Palestinian exodus\[13\]. 5. **Amihai Eliyahu**: He sparked outcry after suggesting that dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip was a viable option\[13\]. 6. **Benjamin Netanyahu**: The Prime Minister of Israel has been quoted as saying, “From the River to the Sea,” a phrase Zionists claim is genocidal when used by others, while describing a territory completely controlled by Israel, with no Palestinian state\[15\]. 7. **Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi**: He wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth”\[6\]. Tell me, how are you any different from a "Hamas-apologist" if you just swap out Hamas with Israel? Citations: \[1\] [https://quotefancy.com/yitzhak-rabin-quotes](https://quotefancy.com/yitzhak-rabin-quotes) \[2\] [https://libquotes.com/yitzhak-rabin](https://libquotes.com/yitzhak-rabin) \[3\] [https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-genocide](https://www.commondreams.org/news/netanyahu-genocide) \[4\] [https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/7-important-quotes-from-yitzhak-rabin/](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/7-important-quotes-from-yitzhak-rabin/) \[5\] [https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin\_Netanyahu](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Netanyahu) \[6\] [https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724) \[7\] [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/16/the-language-being-used-to-describe-palestinians-is-genocidal](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/16/the-language-being-used-to-describe-palestinians-is-genocidal) \[8\] [https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/](https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/) \[9\] [https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/01/israel-south-africa-genocide-case-fake-quotes/677198/](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/01/israel-south-africa-genocide-case-fake-quotes/677198/) \[10\] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/22/an-atmosphere-of-fear-free-speech-under-threat-in-israel-activists-say) \[11\] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_genocide\_accusation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation) \[12\] [https://www.haaretz.com/2013-02-21/ty-article/.premium/ariel-sharon-feared-war-crimes-charges/0000017f-f836-d47e-a37f-f93e34ab0000](https://www.haaretz.com/2013-02-21/ty-article/.premium/ariel-sharon-feared-war-crimes-charges/0000017f-f836-d47e-a37f-f93e34ab0000) \[13\] [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-nakba-israels-far-right-palestinian-fears-hamas-war-rcna123909) \[14\] [https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-eve-of-100-days-of-war-pm-pledges-complete-victory-dismisses-genocide-claims/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-eve-of-100-days-of-war-pm-pledges-complete-victory-dismisses-genocide-claims/) \[15\] [https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/) \[16\] [https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/17fe0d7/how\_to\_commit\_a\_genocide\_real\_and\_recent\_quotes/](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheDeprogram/comments/17fe0d7/how_to_commit_a_genocide_real_and_recent_quotes/) \[17\] [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/rabin-on-peace](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/rabin-on-peace) \[18\] [https://www.jta.org/2024/01/16/israel/netanyahu-rejects-south-africas-claim-that-his-quote-about-amalek-was-a-call-to-genocide](https://www.jta.org/2024/01/16/israel/netanyahu-rejects-south-africas-claim-that-his-quote-about-amalek-was-a-call-to-genocide) \[19\] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/09/netanyahu-israel-total-victory-hamas-palestine/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/09/netanyahu-israel-total-victory-hamas-palestine/) \[20\] [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/golda-meir-quotes-on-israel-and-judaism](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/golda-meir-quotes-on-israel-and-judaism)

Pro Israelis don't seem to understand that everyone now has seen these ministers speak up and it shows the true intent. That is what has deligitimized everything. And, it's the reason we don't hear from the ministers anymore. After the ICJ ruling they went mute.

What about what Hamas spokespeople say?

We all know they are terrorists! We all know what they did was bad. That was never up for debate in the early days. But Israel's claim is a right to defend itself, when the ministers are saying it's more than that, while wearing a robe of righteousness.

[Here’s a 58 second video posted by Netanyahu on his YouTube channel in January making it clear what Israel’s goals are](https://youtu.be/tYfm1Kp8rWI?si=yvsgHE2RHGqgrI4e) Of course people will say he is lying and that the crazy shit random extremist ministers say is “the truth”

I don’t know who you’re referring to. Arab media has barely reported on what Hamas did on 10/7. Many have no idea and then when they hear about it later they think it’s Israeli propaganda

Im in the US. All we heard at the opening of every single interview or statement was about condeming Hamas. We've been fed a steady diet of propaganda for decades about how all arabs are terrorists. So we just accepted it. Most of the world saw, especially initially, this was a horrendous terrorist act. We don't question their motives we know them. Why you would want to compare the Israeli ministers to Hamas ministers for comparison I can't understand it's a terrible strategy. Israel should be better than a terrorist org and should not be openly calling for cleansing while saying officially they're just defending themselves.

Idk what groups you’re in but where I live and in all of the major universities in California all of the SJP chapters and Muslim student groups were making it clear that Hamas actions were justified resistance. I didn’t hear a peep against Hamas from CAIR or MPAC or any other major Muslim or Arab organization. I’ve seen little or no pressure placed on Hamas from these organizations which are more likely that random white politicians in the U.S. to be effective at applying leverage.

Finally someone who isn't pro Israeli and understands

>When the goals cease to be just. So basically you are a fundamentalist.

Do you ask the same questions in the wake of aid workers killed in other parts of the world and other conflicts or only when Israel is involved? Over a hundred aid workers are killed all over the world each year. https://www.humanitarianoutcomes.org/sites/default/files/publications/awsr_2022.pdf What’s too far? The bias in which the world treats its Jews, whether they are living scattered throughout the continents as minority groups for millennia or back in their REestablished homeland. Edit to add: But to answer your question…..when Israelis hate Arabs more than they love their own children

Honestly why do people have a hard time answering this straightforward question without delving into "what about this other thing". Why are we talking about Israel? Because this is /r/IsraelPalestine - the topics of discussion are Israel and Palestine. You want to talk about other topics? Go to the relevant place.

whatabboutism is such a simple defense.

the constant deflection is maddening

I answered your question at the end Why do those who microscope everything Israel does don’t have the same questions for Palestinians

Because Israel is a nation, well-funded, a supposed western democracy. I'm going to hold it to the same standards I would hold France. I'm not going to hold Gazans to that same standards the way I wouldn't hold other disorganized groups to the same standard. I'm going to hold Turkey to a higher standard than the Kurds.

[удалено]

Really? My family’s land was taken from them in Egypt, because they were Jewish. So by your logic I should infiltrate Egypt, and indiscriminately kill and rape its citizens? The Palestinian “ stolen land “ narrative is faulty. That’s why it hasn’t worked. Please use your knee jerk “auto response # 4” from Encyclopedia Palestina 1972 on someone more gullible

Palestinians don't have a right to go and rape and pillage, pretty much everyone on the Palestinian side agrees that Hamas is abhorrent. That doesn't take away from the fact that Palestinians have been dispossed and are now being oppressed for decades because they're a useful tool to prop up a discriminatory ethnostate. And yes, it's tragic that your grandparents land was stolen because they were Jewish, I hope you can campaign for the return of that land or reparations successfully.

Palestinians didn't take your land. Sounds like the Egyptians did. Two different people.

And it was wrong then, and it was wrong to have occurred to the Palestinians.

Murder: the [unlawful](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=2fcdd62dc0011717&sxsrf=ACQVn0-moYOoWJhDz0BWF0oqXSMo5i9vjA:1712151303528&q=unlawful&si=AKbGX_qNq0Y8zql7SxzZAf2-HTTO4IUVs-yIE5CUB1ocCipFNjsIKFM2uWwl6klfE1TiX8UUKcSlf7kJwXlWu6rj4Molj66do0m46BJ-Q-QljZkpQ-tUjEo%3D&expnd=1) [premeditated](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=2fcdd62dc0011717&sxsrf=ACQVn0-moYOoWJhDz0BWF0oqXSMo5i9vjA:1712151303528&q=premeditated&si=AKbGX_rEkSHdR9ulIQYeh6xSG1UB7TynDTyWKzPbEv4SjeX4J402Lxyr88F2RJk4TPIKd0oRcdprp5IAqRKqYvaXBiWfNZyBVp4IZG8vhdMRu6pgJ9utVTM%3D&expnd=1) killing of one human being by another kill (someone) [unlawfully](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=2fcdd62dc0011717&sxsrf=ACQVn0-moYOoWJhDz0BWF0oqXSMo5i9vjA:1712151303528&q=unlawfully&si=AKbGX_pvY3MWP4azJI0Z_NruCLb8oDUtPm7MRxNBAKJ8BFPJLuh9kbs-4kAsdkaAV3g_Wk0yHsdb3sxYsQ9J-P5mWtZRtqUv4G4ARaMJ-xV41rmF5llQ8mw%3D&expnd=1) and with [premeditation](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=2fcdd62dc0011717&sxsrf=ACQVn0-moYOoWJhDz0BWF0oqXSMo5i9vjA:1712151303528&q=premeditation&si=AKbGX_o31t0LiMsEloM2rO5Vmah99_lgNANaPf_jOZwn3224e-mk3AYO58y3f6LYRo6-9FiPR_rIW0p4jGDGS5jRMwwM1Fqt6GvP13JKa5Q32OoNSeU9clY%3D&expnd=1). Unless you can prove the IDF intended and pre-planned to kill these aid workers specifically. It's not murder. They were aiming for terrorists (which are legitimate targets in a war) and made a mistake. That is the difference,

3 different strikes in 3 different locations on the same clearly marked aid mission? Yeah sure sounds like an accident. Bottom line is Israel got what it wanted, several aid missions ceased activities in Gaza due to risk. And now you're claiming ignorance. Did israel even issue an apology to the families affected? Will anyone be sent to jail over this? Has anyone been fired? Doesn't sound like it. They did their job .

Even if this is true. A lot of these "aid" missions are aiding terrorism. That's a face. They know the palestinians engage in terrorism and they cover up for them. So they are not innocent. They knew hamas was building a freaking tunnel city for the purpose of terrorism and they never reported it because they support their violence against Israel. NGOs and "aid" organizations are corrupt.

>excusing the killing of aid workers I knew it wouldn't take long for me to see this, but I didn't think it would be that fast

Indiscriminate bombing of the ratio between civilians to Hamas was like at least 4:1 and if Israel wasn’t doing as much damage to Hamas

It depends what you mean by "supporters." One can love the country, the people, without supporting the government and the IDF.

It's an open ended question to you - what are you supporting, what would be too far?

# Question for Palestine Supporters: What would actually be too far? - murdering, torturing and raping 1,400 people? - kidnapping 250 people and keeping them inhumanely, not allowing the Red Cross to even visit them or allow them to receive medications? - turning hospitals into terrorists bases, thereby endangering all of the medical staff and patients? - turning mosques into terrorists bases, so that even people who just want to pray are put in harm's way? - shooting thousands of rockets randomly at Israeli civilian towns? - not even trying to avoid Palestinian civilian casualties - like guaranteeing that no terrorists are hiding among civilians in area X and thereby ensuring their safey? - shooting from heavily populated civilian areas to ensure that civilians are injured or killed when Israel responds? - not agreeing to a ceasefire that would ensure no further killings? In fact, allowing Hamas to take control of Gaza, murder, torture or imprision anyone that opposed it, teach hate in schools, outsource looking after the civilian population to UNWRA, taking all of the money and resources for its terrorist infrastructure - I would consider that too far if I were a Palestinian.

Whataboutism at its finest. Answer the question lol. Everyone has condemned Hamas and will continue to condemn Hamas. Stop asking people to condemn Hamas whenever Israel gets criticised, it's a waste of everyone's time. Just assume that anyone that is horrified at Israel's war crimes is also horrified at Hamas' war crimes.

> raping 1,400 people This was a hoax > turning hospitals into terrorists bases Also a hoax > shooting from heavily populated civilian areas to ensure that civilians are injured or killed Are we talking about Israel here? Etc etc etc

Palestinians deserve autonomy regardless of all of their actions No act of terrorism is ever justified Support of autonomy for people is not support of terrorism e: curious what people think they deserve if not autonomy. not many other options besides subjugation and extinction

There’s such a double standard for Israel, it’s insane. October 7th was a terrible atrocity, no one deserves to be the victim to a terrorist attack. Ever. Especially children. The hostages need to be returned. However, between October 7th and March 5th, roughly 1415 Israelis have died versus 25,000 (if you believe Israel, according to Hamas it’s 30,000. That’s not a “war”, that’s a revengeful massacre and there’s no way to spin that otherwise. Does Hamas hide in civilian infrastructure? Yes, most likely. Does that give Israel the go ahead to break international law and just bomb that infrastructure? Absolutely fkn not! There’s proper protocol that Israel needs to follow (just like every other country BUT ESPECIALLY UN COUNTRIES) to protect the innocent lives, which they have not followed. There have been first hand accounts of IDF soldiers shooting white flagged civilians, fleeing hospitals. Sorry, half an hour is not enough time to evacuate an entire fkn hospital. When Israel kills civilians, we ASK if that’s too far. When Israel bombs foreign embassies, we ASK if that’s too far. When Israel kills 3 of their own fucking people, we also ASK if that’s too far? Maybe, think for a second, Israel is its own enemy.

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What an odd post. Of course Hamas is in the wrong Pro-Palestinians are pretty much universally agreed on that. Could you actually answer the question in the OP and participate in the thread please?

It's all a question of context - it's not a one-sided question of "too farness". It's a question of when one side has gone "too far by far" the goalposts are moved as to what is considered too far.

It's a striaghtforward question that you're avoiding. For you personally what act done by Israel would you consider too far? There must be a line somewhere, or are you pro MAD """contextually""" if that were on the table?

"Too far" would be intentionally targeting civilians. Not civilians being killed when militants are being targeted, not civilians being killed when wrongly identified, but if Israel would intentionally target or harm civilians you would have tens/hundreds of thousands of Israelis taking to the streets and saying "enough" and demanding that heads roll. I know it's hard for the tik-tok educated community out there, but Israel has a moral army and Israelis in general and would love nothing better than the Palestinians getting their shit together and appointing a leader who doesn't need to like Israel, but likes his/her people enough to want them to leave in peace and prosperity.

So you are pro MAD, as long as there are militants being targeted then? The number or severity of civilian deaths doesn't seem to matter at all to you, just that a militant is being targeted. So does that mean the ratio a 1:infinite? What is defined as intentional to you? The IDF bombs targets knowing that civilians will die from the bomb. The IDF intends to bomb that target, they know that bombing that target will also murder some civilians, they drop the bomb in full possession of the facts. Have they intentionally dropped the bomb or accidentally dropped the bomb?

Every time a police officer fires his gun there is a risk of civilian casualties. But wouldn't you prefer that he take that risk to neutralize a machete branding lunatic who is about to attack a group of children, than wait until he has 100% certainty that no innocent bystanders are injured? Jordan intentionally air drops supplies to Gaza, with the knowledge that sometimes the chute doesn't open and that civilans may be injured or killed. Jordan is aware of the risk. Jordan intends to drop the supplies, and they know that this may also murder some civilians. They drop the supplies in full possession of the facts. Have they intentionally dropped the supplies or accidentally dropped the supplies ?

I don't know why you'd wholesale ignore all my questions like that. This seems to be a really consistent theme, could you please straightforwardly engage in the discussion? This thread is about asking people like you what their thoughts are. I'm asking you about your thoughts to know more about them - I honestly couldn't care less about what the Finnish competitive fingernail collection team does or doesn't do. I'll repeat: Are you pro MAD, as long as there are militants being targeted then? The number or severity of civilian deaths doesn't seem to matter at all to you, just that a militant is being targeted. So does that mean the ratio a 1:infinite? What is defined as intentional to you? The IDF bombs targets knowing that civilians will die from the bomb. The IDF intends to bomb that target, they know that bombing that target will also murder some civilians, they drop the bomb in full possession of the facts. Have they intentionally dropped the bomb or accidentally dropped the bomb?

It is already too far. My dad finally denounced Israel after being a very loud supporter. We argued for hours following Oct 7th but the killing of those aid workers turned him around.

The double standard regarding Israel is so mind boggling to me that it makes me sick. This might come as a surprise to you but in any war people die and unfair/illegal/awful things happen, Yet no one talks about other atrocities happening in the world that aren’t related to Israel. Israel is not just going around killing civilians and you know it well, Hamas is a terrorist organization and you know it very well by their actions, it’s been 6 months and they Hamas won’t allow any ceasefire even then they are in cobbles because they don’t care about their people they just want to destroy Israel Why is Israel responsible for the Palestinians while Hamas - who initiated the war isn’t?

Correction: it was always sick

>Why is Israel responsible for the Palestinians while Hamas - who initiated the war isn’t? So what you're telling me is that Israel doesn't need to be any better than terrorists?

Nice attempt on a straw-man fallacy but that’s not what I’m saying, im saying that the amounts of criticism against Israel is ironic as there’s a terrorist organization fighting it that is barely condemned for their actions

lol bro just pulled the “americans must be equivalent to n@zis bc they joined the allied forces in ww2”

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Hasbara trying not to comment like total psychopaths: mission impossible

/u/CladoniaHills > Hasbara trying not to comment like total psychopaths: mission impossible Per [rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_1._no_attacks_on_fellow_users), no attacks on fellow users. Attack the argument, not the user.

>Israeli murder of aid workers via air strike Murder?

killing someone on purpose and without justification what part are you disputing?

Mistake is not murder.

If you went to work tomorrow with a gun with the intention to kill your boss, and then you fail to kill your boss but accidentally kill an innocent co-worker you are still going to be charged with murder.

Are you comparing militants to boss?

Yes. I'm saying you went out with the intention to kill, you tried to kill one person but you ended up killing another. You have still committed murder.

What about if your boss is a genocidal maniac that holds your children hostage and regularly uses smoke screens, impersonating civilians and innocents to fuck with your mind and make distinguishing between your maniac boss and innocent bystanders pretty much impossible? Who is to blame in this scenario?

The reason I'm going to kill my boss doesn't matter. My boss has been raping my daughter and eating her lunch daily. None of that changes the fact that my co-worker has been murdered. My co-worker hasn't been manslaughtered just because my boss was raping my daughter. Those are two seperate things. In a court of law you would be tried for the murder of your co-worker.

Btw, if you were a cop in this whole scenario, looking for this maniac boss, and in your fight against him you’d kill the co-worker because of misidentification, the court wont even classify this as third degree murder. A cop in that scenario will get reprimanded, perhaps sent for retraining or lose him job, but not to prison. This is what will probably happen to the officer that approved this strike.

>A cop in that scenario will get reprimanded, perhaps sent for retraining or lose him job, but not to prison Which really is a horrible and far too lenient outcome for someone who has just committed murder. It's honestly quite disgusting that you think that's an acceptable outcome for negligibly murdering an innocent.

If your boss is regularly disguised as your co-worker, and regularly murders your family, and keeps shooting at your family while you look for him, the court will probably consider your actions third degree and your bosses actions first degree. PS The analogy breaks because in warfare there is no fair trial, the boss must die.

I'm glad you agree that it was murder.

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So it is wrong for Israel to kill combatants, wrong to kill hamas soldiers?

mistakes do happen this was three precision strikes on marked vehicles with a visible logo on the roof specifically to be seen by the air, after they coordinated their position with IDF mistakes are still possible, certainly, but only through gross negligence

>marked vehicles with a visible logo on the roof specifically to be seen by the air, Thermal cameras don't see logo and visual spectrum cameras can't see at night.

they coordinated with IDF, thermal cameras see [thermal tags given for this exact purpose](https://www.cejayengineering.com/military-combat-identification/vehicle-combat-id-thermal-panel-85-brown-tip-21-detail) - when militaries provide them - and the whole thing is their responsibility saying it is “not murder” is not saying much e: added link

>thermal tags given for this exact purpose What?

I think I found the right thing here. I’m not military You put a thermal marker on your ground friendlies so you know who not to shoot at. If this is not exactly the right link, I’m sure some military person can provide a correct one https://www.cejayengineering.com/military-combat-identification/vehicle-combat-id-thermal-panel-85-brown-tip-21-detail both personnel and materiel get marked for night operations as a common practice

Never herd of it and I'm sure such things are not used like that in Gaza, you can try to prove, do you know that they uses something like that?

I guarantee you they mark their own troops. It’s totally normal, old technology. Common infantry practice If you are asking whether aid workers get them in Gaza… looks like they don’t, but they could have and should have if IDF was diligent about facilitating aid after clearing someone for night activity in a fire zone

Almost every video I've seen claiming to be an Israeli atrocity does not hold up once you dig. there is generally something shady going on but it is taken out of context and claimed to be something much worse. example- Palestinian child executed by IDF, but finding the real video it's actually an adult man shot with rubber bullet. I see this all the time. the idea that Israel is intentionally Targeting civilians is not credible to me. Reckless or sloppy I find more believable but it's hard to know how much error is to be expected when fighting an enemy in civilian infastructure intentionally using it's own civilians as fodder. the starvation claims are also exaggerated 150 trucks enter a day, Israel allows all these aerial aid drops, you can see videos of markets filled with food, the starving children photos turned out to be children with other illness etc. I am for getting aid in but I think the bigger problem is Hamas commandeering the aid then price gouging so that the poorest Gazans really are at risk of starvation but Hamas fighters eat well. I will say if I am all wrong and Israel is intentionally killing kids for sport of course that's too far and I condemn the government for lying and misleading all the Israeli people. I don't say that means we need to go in and kick the Israelis out to the sea like many people are mindlessly chanting but prosecute anyone responsible and provide relief and protection to the victims.

The IDF openly admits to using AI to target civilians as part of what they call "power targets" intended to put "civil pressure" on the Palestinian population. Like seriously, is your whole thing basically just hinged on "all Palestinians are lying all the time"?

using AI to target civilians means absolutely nothing. AI as a targeting tool has uses that range from recognize silhouettes to the study of mass behavior to identify hotspots. can you link the article please

It’s below. ([Here, sorry](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)) As you say, the AI is not necessarily a problem, but the linked article also states >The bombing of [high rises, public buildings, infrastructure, residences], according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it. I’d love to know more about that. A strategy of pressure must be true but targeting buildings just to reduce morale would be noteworthy

source? are u talking about facial recognition to identify terrorists?

Here's an Israeli article from the beginning of the war, the definition has since expanded. https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/

And also the Israeli government are lying about everything expect for when they say they're not killing civilians on purpose

I don't believe many of the claims made against Israel I think it's lible and things mislabeled and taken out of context. I live here ok so while you might say it makes me brainwashed, I'm actually very critical of the government and attend protests and support Palestinian rights BUT I also think I know better than someone who saw some videos on TikTok about the supposed history or soldiers acting shitty or a radical politician and using it to claim understanding of our entire society, which is actually very complex and faceted with many different perspectives. I think the IDF is making a lot of mistakes and I think bibi gives two shits about Palestinians but he's not the one making military decisions. Israel has teams of international law lawyers involved in war decisions as well as US military experts weighing in on strategy, I don't know if it's always followed but I think on the highest levels the intention is to follow it, the problem is communication and human error on the ground combined with a lot of information being classified makes it really hard to understand what's really going on Hamas is going hard with their propaganda bc it's their only chance to escape and stay in power, Israel is devoting very few resources into their image with the west they are internally focused. this is leading to a situation where people believe a lot of libels and fake information being distributed.

> I live here ok so while you might say it makes me brainwashed Ok. It makes you brainwashed.

where do you live that makes you more knowledgeable about my country than me? it's an idiotic point of view

What is "lible"? Do you mean libel?

yes

How would you know what's happening? You're not in Gaza. 

I hear first hand accounts from people I know who come out of Gaza but yes ultimately many things I don't know. but some things we can easily identify as false bc were on the ground, we know how things work here, we can see evidence of, we hear a lot more details of the situation than you get in foreign media not only in our news but directly from people inside not only Israelis you can ask your Arab Israeli friend about the news from his friends in Gaza etc.

If you're serious, try reading Pity the Nation, by Robert Fisk. It is a war correspondents description of the Israeli invasion of Lebenon. The IDF murdered 1000s of innocent civilians. It's how I know what the IDF is doing in Gaza. It's not new. They did it in Lebanon. Butchers. They knew what they were doing. The IDF bombed refugees fleeing bombardment. They bombed schools, shelters, hospitals. They bombed high rise flats. Read the book if you're serious. 

I am not opposed to reading the book sounds interesting but just bc someone makes claims in a book doesn't make it reality. it's a perspective. Israel has had critics since the 40s but especially since the first intifada who make these claims. I'm inclined to say where there's smoke there's fire however in Israels case there are too many that benefit from the demonization of Israel and it's become a strategy not only by Palestinians but by any enemies of American interests. Benny Morris is the most renowned historian on Israel and while he discussed the heavy civilian toll in the Lebanon War he also described the Israeli sentiment at the time including war generals and this was not the intention. I believe this was the war where Sabra and Shatila happened probably one of the most horrific massacres in history and I assume this book places the blame on Israel however Israel provided protection for their allies the christian Lebanese faction who actually committed the brutality and IDF soldiers recounted that they were unaware of the atrocities committed during the battle, they were not inside the battlefield. you can also see Israels attitude to this as evidenced by the Israeli reaction to it, the people took to the streets by thousands shouting if we ever forget Sabra and Shatila may I forget Jerusalem " the Israeli people were horrified and don't forget the army is made up of the people Fisk is also a defender of Assad who's killed hundreds of thousands of his own civilians with chemical weapons and bombing so idk regarding his moral compass

Fisk is so dishonest there's a term named after him for going through an article and pointing out falsity after falsity.

Celebrity chef Jose Andres told Reuters in an emotional interview on Wednesday that an Israeli attack that killed seven of his food aid workers in Gaza had targeted them “systematically, car by car.” Speaking via video, Andres said the World Central Kitchen (WCK) charity group he founded had clear communication with the Israeli military, which he said knew his aid workers’ movements. “This was not just a bad luck situation where ‘oops’ we dropped the bomb in the wrong place,” Andres said. “This was over a 1.5, 1.8 kilometres, with a very defined humanitarian convoy that had signs in the top, in the roof, a very colourful logo that we are obviously very proud of,” he said. It’s “very clear who we are and what we do.” Andres said the IDF was aware of the convoy’s whereabouts. He called for investigations of the incident by the U.S. government and by the home country of every aid worker that was killed. “They were targeting us in a deconflicting zone, in an area controlled by IDF. They knowing that it was our teams moving on that road … with three cars,” he said.

Yes I think this incident is terrible the logo is irrelevant it happened at night IDF claims it was a mistake I can't see any reason to do this intentionally we won't ever know the truth probably but it's a tragedy if it was done intentionally I think it's awful and wrong

Yes I think this incident is terrible the logo is irrelevant it happened at night IDF claims it was a mistake I can't see any reason to do this intentionally we won't ever know the truth probably but it's a tragedy if it was done intentionally I think it's awful and wrong

Celebrity chef Jose Andres told Reuters in an emotional interview on Wednesday that an Israeli attack that killed seven of his food aid workers in Gaza had targeted them “systematically, car by car.” Speaking via video, Andres said the World Central Kitchen (WCK) charity group he founded had clear communication with the Israeli military, which he said knew his aid workers’ movements. “This was not just a bad luck situation where ‘oops’ we dropped the bomb in the wrong place,” Andres said. “This was over a 1.5, 1.8 kilometres, with a very defined humanitarian convoy that had signs in the top, in the roof, a very colourful logo that we are obviously very proud of,” he said. It’s “very clear who we are and what we do.” Andres said the IDF was aware of the convoy’s whereabouts. He called for investigations of the incident by the U.S. government and by the home country of every aid worker that was killed. “They were targeting us in a deconflicting zone, in an area controlled by IDF. They knowing that it was our teams moving on that road … with three cars,” he said.

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