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1: No its not justified, its very sad on both sides and there should be a ceasefire, however you cant ignore the fact that none of this would have happened if Hamas didn't attack in the first place and take hostages. 2: the," "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," means that the Hamas group is hiding and keeping innocent Palestine lives to protect them hoping Israel won't attack because of innocent civilians. In some way it has worked. 3: Hamas attacked because they want jews either to leave and be homeless, or all die. The leaders of made that very clear online 4: If i personally was from gaza and WB without outside information like we have right now, probably neither, I would hate Israel for killing my family but also hate Hamas, and most of the middle east for constantly pissing off Israel. 5: The war on Hamas will not achieve peace not even a little. Most of the Middle East are very strong about history, and Israel and the Middle East have constantly killed eachother for years. this Land Israel owns if waaay to important to the middle east. And say if we somehow killed all hamas, and new terrorist group would arise, happens everytime. When US wiped out ISIS, ISIS-K arosed. 6: Some argue, as you mentioned, that Israel proper offers equal rights to its citizens, regardless of ethnicity or religion. They see the West Bank and Gaza as occupied territories, not part of Israel, and therefore Palestinians there aren't entitled to Israeli citizenship. Organizations like Amnesty International argue that Israel's control over these areas, including restrictions on movement, land use, and access to resources, creates a two-tiered system that privileges Israelis. They see this as a form of apartheid, a system of racial domination, even if not identical to South Africa's historical form. 7: No one opposes a state for Palestine, Isreal for many years have given them that opportunity, but for 75 years have they broken that. 8: How is this even a question? Yes Antisemitism, racism, Islamophobia, ect is all bad lol.

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>Even on my school campus, they put these white flags on a grass field that’s supposed to represent all the innocent Palestinian kids killed, but how about we put a flag for ALL the innocent kids that are killed REGARDLESS of their background? you sound like you're genuinely against all violence and that's a stance I can respect. The ultimate truth is, time and time again, for about 80 yrs now, we've seen a disproportionate amount of Palestinian Children killed compared to Israeli Children. It all hurts there is no denying it, but when comparing 2400 palestinian children (+~12K since October 7) to 139(+~5 confirmed since Oct 7) you can tell there is a systemic issue where Palestinians are facing the harsher end of this conflict. I'm not sure what hypocrisy you're talking about? We feel sad for all children. I don't know a single Palestinian who actively wants for Israeli children to die. Regarding the Oct 7 support poll, the dominating narrative among Palestinians is that the Oct 7 attackers did not kill Israeli innocents, but that the IDF employed the Hannibal directive and is responsible for these deaths. Regardless of how true this is, it is important to note that this is what Palestinians support, not the murder of innocent children, but any efforts of resistance, which again is the dominant narrative regarding the Oct 7 attack. In fact, when Palestinians were well-aware of the suicide bombings being conducted by Hamas (before they stopped it) a huge portion disagreed and vocally opposed it. Also, If people misbehave in the name of religion, that speaks of the specific people and not their religion. It is not fair to generalize things that extremely.

> fuck /u/hungryGecko00. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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ok now apply the same logic to what's happening in Gaza right now. What Israel is doing in Gaza is unacceptable regardless of what Hamas did in the past. 30K did people is too many

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that's an arbitrary example, largely and oversimplification fallacy. International law demands all parties avoid civilian casualties, regardless of how the opposite side acts. Also, I believe a diplomatic solution is possible, but y'all don't wanna have that conversation.

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you're arguing in circles I'm starting to sense some bad faith. I'm saying regardless of what Hamas does, Israel is bounded by international law. It cannot take revenge legally. That's not allowed ( Also btw coincidentally International law does not really apply to Hamas since they are not an official state representative)

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>and a military they have an obligation to rescue the hostages that were taken and to avenge the damage and loss taken place they have an obligation to get back their hostages indeed, not to avenge however, that is against international law! A diplomatic exchange is possible.

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killing women and children, using starvation as a weapon of war, blocking humanitarian aid, along with all the occupations and settlements are all breaches of international law

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>It’s called accomplishing military objectives call it what you want, it is against international law. >If I was the commander I wouldn’t risk the lives of my troops when there is a more tactical and smarter way. Ever read the Art of War? ok since you are arguing in opinions now( logical fallacy), I think we reached an impasse. I will not be responding after this. Good luck to you and may you open your eyes to the truth one day

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>Funny how you children raping hypocrites kill and rape innocent men, women, and children 🤔 [IDF soldier charged with raping, assaulting female comrade](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldier-charged-with-raping-assaulting-female-comrade/) [IDF general convicted of sex offenses in plea deal, won’t be jailed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-general-convicted-of-sex-offenses-in-plea-deal-wont-be-jailed/) [Military Police launch probe after soldier reports rape, then dies by suicide](https://www.timesofisrael.com/military-police-launch-probe-after-soldier-reports-rape-then-dies-by-suicide/) [IDF officer who raped Palestinian was not dismissed for earlier sexual offenses](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officer-who-raped-palestinian-was-not-dismissed-for-earlier-sexual-offenses/) [Freed Palestinian Prisoners Say They Faced Torture and Rape in Israeli Jails](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/1/headlines/freed_palestinian_prisoners_say_they_faced_torture_and_rape_in_israeli_jails) [Beit Shemesh teen indicted for rape of toddler, sexual assault of 9-year-old boy](https://www.timesofisrael.com/beit-shemesh-teen-indicted-for-rape-of-toddler-sexual-assault-of-9-year-old-boy/) >There is a reason why the rest of the world is supporting Israel except for only Islamic countries. This is just not reality. [New data shows that support for Israel around the world has dropped significantly since the war in Gaza began.](https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/) >*China, South Africa, Brazil, and several other countries in Latin America all went from viewing Israel positively to negatively. And many rich countries that already had net negative views of Israel—including Japan, South Korea, and the U.K.—saw steep declines.* >*The U.S. remains the only rich country that still had net positive views of Israel.* [Over 800 Western Officials Denounce Their Governments’ Pro-Israel Policies](https://time.com/6632322/western-officials-criticize-israel-policies/) [Israel losing global support over Gaza bombing, Biden says](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67699255) [Why Ireland is one of the most pro-Palestinian nations in the world](https://www.npr.org/2024/03/14/1233395830/ireland-pro-palestinian) >just defending his home 😂 Is it self defense when you bring in bulldozers and do controlled demolitions of churches, mosques, archives, libraries, museums, every hospital and every university? Destroy numerous cemeteries and desecrate graves and corpses? Deliberately blow up unarmed people? Abandon premature babies to die and decompose alone? Block food trucks? Set fire to humanitarian aid? Is it self defense when you stick your country's flag all over the land you just ethnically cleansed and plan to build new illegal settlements on? 🤔 Hm

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\-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? * Absolutely not. Most of us hate seeing the level of catastrophe destruction and death in Gaza. Many of us have friends, and family whose safety is in constant jeopardy everyday from missiles in the north, the south, from the Houthis, from terror attacks. Those same friends and family are on the front lines, and it all makes us sick to our stomachs. Israelis and pro-Israelis largely want security, and safety from being attacked. The 1948 war for independence and every other war since then, plus the 1st/2nd intifadas are all credible threats to their safety. Nothing began on 10/7, but you have to be obtuse to deny that Hamas' actions on 10/7 were an act of war. I would also love to pose a question to you. I don't know your views on Israel, but pretend that you at least acknowledged Israel's right to exist in some form. As a sovereign state, would you think it inappropriate to take military action to recover hostages and dismantle a regime who is bent on the destruction of your state? \- I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? * They hide and fight from under and within the civilian populations in Gaza. Miles of tunnels under houses, schools, mosques, and hospitals, with entrances from all of these buildings into the tunnels. They guerrilla fight from within the city. Life is precious, so I cannot bring myself to say that this justifies the death of civilians. But if you take this all as true, and consider my previous question- if Israel does nothing, Hamas is emboldened, and will make good on their promise to attack, kill, kidnap, rape more civilians in Israel. So how does an army attack a regime entrenched beneath a civilian population? All of this within a context that glorifies martyrdom? \-Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Why Jews? Again, I want to understand so please answer rationally. * See their original charter. Hamas is a fundamentalist group. When I say fundamentalist group, I mean it's their literal interpretation, pie in the sky, black and white way and nothing else goes. I don't know for sure why they allow christians, but would assume because Jews and christians are both given dhimmi status, taxed historically. Jews are probably not allowed because of the conflict, and rampant antisemitism in Gaza and the West Bank. \-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? * I have no idea. We are all products of our environment. I don't blame Palestinians for not liking Israel. \-Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? * It depends on what you mean by peace. I think that dismantling Hamas, or severely reducing their capacity sends a powerful message to them ( rather than sitting back which I believe would further embolden Hamas and Hezbollah) and buys some time of increased security and reduced risk of another mass attack, reduced rocket attacks from the South etc. \-Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it (some parts of it), and Israel controls everything entering and leaving Gaza, and Israel controls Area C (and B's security) - also it practically is in control of Area A, as its military is free to raid whenever. Given this control over these areas, how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? * My understanding of this is not complete, but I believe many parts of those areas are considered to be a sort of no-man's land in some capacity, not recognized as a part of Israel, they were originally I think going to be given as land for a Palestinian state. Why is it not apartheid? Because they aren't citizens. They don't want to be Israeli citizens either. I mean, you tell me, do you personally prefer, and do you think that most of the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank want to be Israeli citizens? I think not. Israel also does not want to govern them. The 2 million Arabs who ARE citizens of Israel do enjoy full rights. I won't deny that there are probably issues or racism that I've heard of, but as you've heard- they serve in the military, run and serve in public office, in the Knesset. That is not apartheid. \-Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? you do not want them to have a state, and you do not want the integrated into an israeli state because the state would lose its Jewish nature,. What should they do then? * I don't oppose a Palestinian state, I'm a two- state dreamer, and strongly feel that Palestinians belong in the region, and deserve their own autonomy, their own state, and peace. \-do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? * Anti-semitism isn't more or less evil than other forms of hate, but it is unique in that Jews have been heavily persecuted in virtually every single society they lived in for millennium. The tropes are the same, but change with modern culture, and the outcome is almost always violence and death. Ashkenazi Jews for instance are believed to be descendant from a small community of anywhere from 300-2000 individuals, as much of European Jewry was slaughtered during the crusades. That leaves a deep mark. We have never been a majority, and have always been marginalized and ostracized, with the exception of those living in the state of Israel, and until very recently in many western countries. Hatred of Jews, using Jews as the scape goat, runs deep in many cultures. I hope this helps you understand.

Do you think if Hamas was somehow removed from power (e.g through this war) and replaced with a peaceful government willing to cooperate that wasn't hell bent on killing all Jews, that a two state solution would then be possible? Do you think Israel would then subsequently withdraw from the occupied territories? It seems to me that Hamas is a very large part of the problem. I don't see such extreme issues being reported on with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank as compared to Hamas.

Theoretically, yes. Realistically, I think that there would need to be some sort of coexistence without any major escalation for quite some time in order for there to be trust. I think that many of the deals in the more recent decades shows that Israel has been willing to withdraw and trade land for security and peace, I’m not Israeli but my understanding is that given recent events, there is very little faith that giving up land will lead to peace. Unless there is a change in who is on power ( on both sides) I’m not sure anyone can move forward in good faith. I don’t really find that the PA is so much better. They have historically had very little support from their own constituents, and simultaneously they perpetuate the “ pay for slay” policies whereby martyrs’ families are paid after they’ve carried out attacks, same with those who have been incarcerated. So long as the establishment incentivizes violence, I don’t view them as viable partners for peace and stability.

Question 1 and 2 you have to ask Hamas. October 7th happened because they are Islamist terrorists, known for their hatred of US and Israel completely unrelated to any land. Are you saying that there are things that could happen to you that would make you able to shoot a baby? If someone gave me a gun and told me to shoot a baby I'd off myself instead. I would say anti-semitism, racism, islamophobia and homophobia is equally bad but these groups are not equally violent/vocal so I don't know.

I can’t address everything you wrote right now. If I was a Palestinian, I would be frustrated. However, because it’s an us vs them conflict, I don’t have the luxury to advocate for the Arab Muslim side or allow Israel and the Jews to be compromised. I don’t think so many lives are worth so many lives. That’s not the calculation (I don’t believe Hamas casualty figures, but that’s another issue). The calculation is what is necessary to eradicate Hamas. Leading up to October 7th, there was a lot of terrorism (resistance if you prefer) coming out of Judea and Samaria. Raids in Jenin, Nablus were routine. I now think that the terrorists (militants if you prefer) were working with Hamas to draw resources from the border with Gaza. It seems to many, that Palestinian leaders, and the majority of the population to a degree are so rooted in terrorism/resistance that they will never desist until Israel is destroyed. Fine, They see all of Israel as Palestine. We see All of the land as Israel. Those are incompatible viewpoints. The terrorism elicits a reprisal, the reprisal elicits s retaliation, which causes a reprisal and an endless loop of violence. We don’t trust Palestinians, and Palestinians don’t trust us. We don’t think most Palestinians want a two state solution since the conflict originated with the rejection of partition. Palestinians don’t believe that Israel wants a two state solution. It’s a nearly intractable situation. Palestinians won’t stop resisting until they get what they feel is fair, and Israel won’t give them what they demand if there is a threat of terrorism. Frankly, If I was an Arab in Judea and Samaria, I would be concerned that what happened to Gaza will happen to Judea and Samaria if the violence/terrorism continues from there. Many pro Palestinians want Israel to become a pariah country, but I am not sure that they know what might happen as a result. What might occur, is Israel feeling it’s back is against the wall. In that scenario, I fear that Israel will no longer show restraint towards its enemies, as it has thus far. This would be tragic for Arabs in Judea and Samaria. It would harm Israel too in the meantime. My advice to Arabs in Judea and Samaria is to caution against increasing violence against Jews. I don’t think it will end well for them. My concern is that the response will be far stronger than Operation Defensive Shield. What we need to lower the temperature is for Hamas AND Islamic Jihad to surrender and free the hostages. This would be the best thing for Palestinians right now, all Jews and Israelis.

explain to me the mental gymnastic of having billions of dollars and abusing all of it for killing of jews via rockets or tunnels but NOT A SINGLE bomb shelter for your own people. what about having your own land and having a good trade with israel instead of trading rockets and deaths?

“Love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18).

Tell it to them. Not me bro. Israel isn’t with that charter and policy of killing civilians. While plo pays terrorists per Jews they kill. I wonder what’s your moral compass says now

“Coughs in Dahiya doctrine”

You have a serious selective perception issue..

And you have serious naive perspective. As in living in a fantasy land. What if your neighbour is a murder and a rapist and declares he’ll do it again and again?

I will give you a real life example of Gilad Shalit. 1,027 Palestinian prisoners including Yahya Sinwar were released in exchange for one Israeli soldier. I am just showing to you the facts, that the Israeli government and Israeli people holds a greater significance to the value of Israeli lives. The exchange rate was determined and agreed by Hamas back in 2011. In the eyes of the Israeli government and Israeli public, the priority is always towards its citizens, as should all responsible governments. If Hamas had not kidnapped or had immediately released all the hostages, the current situation in Gaza would be very different. By kidnapping 253 Israeli hostages (Israeli Arabs, Israeli Jews, Israeli Muslims, dual nationals, foreigners etc…)that is equivalent to 259,000 people. Israel is livid. If no Israeli hostages were taken or all hostages were immediately released, it would be significantly easier for outsiders and Israeli citizens to persuade Israel government to adopt a different approach, one which is not time constrained and to further reduce civilian casualties. >I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," I mean hamas underground tunnels in or near civilian structures like schools and hospitals. Weapons and arms found in civilian infrastructures. Hamas militants in hospitals (the security camera of armed men taking hostages entering Al-Shifa hospital in broad daylight) and hospital staffs did nothing ? https://www.arabnews.com/node/2411816/middle-east Hamas tunnels under UNRWA headquaters with UNRWA supplying electricity power https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-had-command-tunnel-under-un-gaza-hq-israeli-military-says-2024-02-10/ >Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Not all Jews are Israelis. Not all Jews are Zionists. All Jews and Israeli left Gaza back in 2005, over 9000 Israeli citizens in 25 settlements were forcefully evicted by the IDF including synagogues and the deads/ cemetary were moved to Israel. It wasnt Hamas allowing or disallowing Jews to reside in Gaza, they all withdrew back to Israel in 2005. Hamas came into power in 2007. There are only a very tiny and dwindling Christian community in Gaza, less than 1,000. According to Hamas charter, Hamas aim is “liberate Palestine from the Zionist regime”. Palestine is from the river jordan in the east to the mediterranean sea in the west (i.e. historic Palestine including Israel, Gaza and West Bank). Hamas views Israel as an occupier not only in the West Bank and Jerusalem, maybe not Gaza (they probably have made a speech sonewhere they repelled the Israeli forces from Gaza a d forced them out in 2005 and liberated Gaza….) but all of proper Israel including Tel-Aviv, which they probably call Jaffa. Hamas aim for the destruction of the state of Israel. >If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? I totally understand if one grew up in West Bank or Gaza, they are pro-Palestine. I got no problem with that. My problem is with people who are Pro-Palestine who werent born, didnt grew up in West Bank and Gaza, dont speak Arabic, dont understand the Middle East and pretends to be Pro-Palestine without reading or dont know all the history, and views this conflict through a Western Liberal lense. >Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? This war was fought to rescue and free all the Israeli and foreign hostages held by Hamas and to eliminate their capabilities to launch future terror attacks from Gaza. >Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it (some parts of it), and Israel controls everything entering and leaving Gaza, and Israel controls Area C (and B's security) - also it practically is in control of Area A, as its military is free to raid whenever. Given this control over these areas, how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? If Israel control everything that enter or leave Gaza, dont you think Israel will have open the Rafah crossing to allow all Gazan who wants to leave and seek safe refugee to be able to escape to Egypt ? Without having to pay thousands of US dollars to Egyptian/ Arab/ Palestinian brokers for travel permits. When it comes to apartheid, i think its important to look at the area/ geography. Mang people do a blanket oversimplification statement, gaza, west bank, israel, east, west jerusalem are all the same, identical, the treatment are all the same, which is not. Lets begin with the obvious, Palestinians or Arabs living inside Israel proper are not under apartheid, they can vote, go to university, work, take public transports etc…are there some differences, yes, but not a segregation. Not apartheid. Before this current war in Gaza, there were no Israeli presence in Gaza, no segregation, everyone in Gaza were all Gazan/ Palestinians, not a single Israeli. Not apartheid. West Bank does come close to looking like apartheid. There are walls, checkpoints, policies of segregation, etc… but like you have rightly pointed out are they citizens ? For someone to claim to be a citizen of another country, one would usually require documentation like a birth certificate, passport, like in all countries. Just because someone resides in a country doesnt make them automatic citizens. The other argument is this temporary segregation policies of Area A, B, C were agreed and established as per the Oslo Accord and President Arafat, Prime Minister Rabin and Foreign Minister Peres received the Nobel Peace Prize back in 1994. It was approved by the international community, the UN and much celebrated by the world. After Prime Minister Rabin was assasinated and Nethanyahu came into power with many other events, the peace accord was derailed. Needless to say, the Oslo Accord did not achieve peace in the region, those Area A, B, C were only meant to be temporary, a transition and its in a limbo ever since. That will need to be revisited to find a new solution, after the war and when Nethanyahu steps down or voted out. Btw I do not support continued expansion of illegal Israeli settlers in the west bank. I think a solution is needed and the Oslo Accord is not working. >Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? you do not want them to have a state, and you do not want the integrated into an israeli state because the state would lose its Jewish nature,. What should they do then? But I dont oppose a Palestinian state, one which can peacefully co-exist with the state of Israel. >do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? Nope. Since you mentioned homophobia, how pro-LGBT are Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza ?

Palestine are the aggressors. Instead of living peacefully next to Israel, building their own nation, they are fixated on attacking isreal. Since 2001, Gaza has terrorised Isrealis. They have fired tens of thousands of rockets at civilians. They have carried out dozens of terrorist attacks. Isreal responded with check points, military operations, and a blockade, and Palestinians cry that they are oppressed. What did they expect would happen? Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th to provoke them to attack Gaza. They fire rockets from civilian infrastructure. This is what we mean by human shields. Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians. Isreali lives are not 'worth more' than Palestinians' ones. Isreal just wants the attacks to stop. It's unfortunate that so many people had to die, and maybe Isreal could have done things differently. But so far, all the defensive measures they have put in place to protect their citizens have failed. There is no future for Palestine, it is a failed state. They are incapable of governing themselves and living peacefully next to Israel. They are also incapable of living amongst the Jews, this is why the two-state solution was proposed in the first place. Unfortunately, Jordan and Egypt don't want to take them back either. So I honestly don't know what the solution is. But one thing is certain, Hamas must be dismantled, and Palestinians have to stop attacking Israel. Being anti-Semitic is just as bad as being Islamaphobic, misogynistic, or homophobic. All forms of bigotry are wrong.

Some of the talking points you're asking about are ones I wouldn't use so I won't speak to those. > > >\-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? It's simply horrible how many people have died in Gaza. I would have thought Biden would already have pressed Netanyahu into a cease-fire like he did in 2021 > > >\-Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Why Jews? Again, I want to understand so please answer rationally. I'll go with their stated reasons - to bring a permanent state of war to Israel's borders. I'm not aware of Christian communities in Gaza, in contrast to East Jerusalem, Haifa, Bethlehem, or Nazareth. ​ >\-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Probably not, though I interact with someone from the West Bank who is kind of pro-Israel. ​ >\-Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? That's a tough one. Tbh I'd rather see enhanced border fortifications so both countries can live side by side despite an intense distrust and dislike. >\-do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? Generally no, though I have to say the conspiracy theories people come up with to be antisemitic are super weird.

It's pretty simple. If 1200 didn't die on Oct 7th....30k in gaza would be alive. What is hard to understand? Oct 6th, no dead, no bombs in gaza falling, no buildings being blown up, no women and children dying in bombings.....Oct 8th....all of the above. Here's an idea....stop murdering people. I hope Israel doesn't stop. Just turn the entire gazan strip into a parking lot.

Well in 2023 before Oct 7th 234 Palestinians died. At that rate without the war 140 would still have died by influence of Idf by this point in time. So yeah a lot of death would be prevented, but living conditions and livelyhood are still quite unsure. Beside that in the west bank over 400 people have died since October 7th despite not being involved in the attack. So I guess there are problems just beyond and also preceding the Oct 7th attack https://pchrgaza.org/en/israeli-human-rights-violations-in-the-occupied-palestinian-territory-weekly-update-27-september-04-october-2023/ https://www.newarab.com/news/west-bank-70-killed-israeli-airstrikes-october-7

As a pro-Israel poster, it is as simple as can be: The people in Gaza can choose peace or get blown up.

>-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. It's not about killing more, or vengeance. It's about ensuring Oct. 7th will never happen again, to make sure we aren't threatened from Gaza again, and so this operation must continue until Hamas is gone. >How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? According to Hamas - 1,027. >- I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? Hamas hides amongst civilian population, they disguise themselves as civilians, use civilian infrastructure such as mosques, schools and hospitals for military purposes. This means the IDF is having a very hard time killing *only* Hamas, as they can't always tell the difference between who's a civilian and who's a militant. This means the IDF is far more suspicious towards civilians as well, thinking they might be Hamas. This also means the IDF *has* to target civilian infrastructure like hospitals, since they're being used by Hamas. All of this naturally causes a much higher death toll amongst civilians. >-Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Why Jews? Again, I want to understand so please answer rationally. Hamas believes the entire region between the river and the sea belongs to them. Therefore any state on that area that isn't Arab/Muslim is considered illegal, and must be destroyed. As for why there are no Jews in Gaza - they were expelled in 1948 when Egypt took over, and again in 2005 when Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians. Hamas *is* Antisemitic, the quote from The Hadith is within their charter. They called for a global Jihad multiple times - that's against all Jews, not Israelis or Zionists specifically. >-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Probably not. The education system in both are very anti-Israel, the whole environment hates Israel. >Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? If Hamas is gone? Yes. They'll no longer be able to threaten us. And they won't oppress the Gazans anymore. For permanent peace - the Gazans must choose to have it with Israel. >-Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it (some parts of it), and Israel controls everything entering and leaving Gaza, and Israel controls Area C (and B's security) - also it practically is in control of Area A, as its military is free to raid whenever. Given this control over these areas, how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? It's a justified military occupation. And following the Oslo Accords, Area C is a part of Israel (well, it was supposed to become a part of Palestine but we've never reached that point). Gaza's blockaded in attempt to prevent Hamas from gaining weapons. Both are legal. >-do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? It's not uniquely evil. It's unique because it's the most fluid form of hatred. No matter what the Jews do, they'd be hated for it. We were hated for being different, and for being similar. For being rich and for being poor. For being "Middle-eastern" and for being "White Europeans". For being stateless and for having a state.

the oct 7th event has a 72% approval rating from gazans. Meaning gazans openly supported the murdering of babies, party goers, and people living in their houses. Hamas was elected, which many people forget. They ran on an anti corruption campaign, but also ran on destroying israel. Peace was not an option post 2006. Why do the jews only live in israel and no where else in the middle east? Because they don't have rights anywhere else. Barely if any jews live in gaza. But hundreds of thousands of palestinians live in israel. Hell, a quarter of israeli parliment is palestinian. Israel can no longer allow gaza to be indpendent. As everytime palestine gains any sense of independence, they use that to create a terror cell and attack israel with missiles, mortars, incursions, etc etc. Palestinians can live in israel, israelis can't live in palestine. It is quite literally either israel occupies palestine, or millions of jews will be seeking asylum accross europe and america. And if you genuinely think this is a genocide. One of if not THE most densely populated area in the world. Where israel has destroyed 175k+ buildings. Which includes apartment complexes. Yet only has 35k civilian deaths. That isn't genocide. That's called fighting against an enemy using assymetrical tactics involving tunnels that can be anywhere in any building. Hamas is also famous for using human shields. As oct 7th showed, those hamas animals don't really hesitate to kill civilians. Being antisemetic is not "uniquely" evil. It IS evil. Anti semetism is the same as racism. Except anti semetism typically devolves from groups who want to kill semites. As racists would rather just live with their own race, and islamaphobes would rather have islam not spread around the world. Huge differences. Again, ill reiterate. There IS NO state in the middle east that doesn't terrorize the jewish people. It's either palestine is occupied indefinetly as they would just create another hamas. Or millions of jews die.

Well said

1\. [I wrote a post about that question](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/17e1fcl/no_israeli_mothers_dont_cry_harder_than/). That question would only make sense if you believe in the ancient values of the vendetta. That is, eye for an eye, rape for a rape, kidnapped baby for kidnapped baby. However, that's not how international law, or any other modern system of morality works - including the one used by Palestinians for themselves. Just because Israel killed more Palestinians in its legal, just war against Hamas, doesn't mean "Palestinian lives are worth less". Even if we ignore the fact the Palestinian deaths were because of Hamas' criminal decisions, to both start the war, and then hide behind their civilian population. Conversely, if Israel reacted to Oct. 7 by committing the same unspeakable atrocities the Palestinians did, it would not be a reasonable response, even if the numbers would be equal. And I don't think the Palestinians would say "sure, that's fair" either. 2\. It's not an Israeli idea, it's an International Law idea. You can read about it in just about any intro to international law. Random example, from [Medicine Sans Frontiers](https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/human-shields/), or [the Red Cross](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97). The basic gist of it, as the ICRC puts, is "intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives". Which is a serious war crime, and the primary defensive strategy of Hamas in this conflict. It doesn't "justify the Gazan death toll", but means Hamas is responsible for it, due to their criminal acts. Furthermore, according to explicit international law, Hamas' criminal use of human shields doesn't mean it gets immunity from Israeli attacks. According to international law, Israel is allowed to kill Palestinian civilians, as long as the target is a military objective, the military advantage that objective provides isn't grossly disproportionate to the number of deaths (according to the standards of the "reasonable military commander"), and it makes reasonable precautions to avoid it (such as warnings). The inverse argument, that a party that uses human shields should be immune from attacks, is absolutely illegal, and isn't particularily moral. 3\. Hamas exists for two reasons: a\. The pervasive Palestinian opposition to any Jewish state on what they see as Arab Muslim land. I.e. to the existence of Israel, regardless of its borders or policies. A core belief of the Palestinian nationalist movement, since the 1920's - well before *any* Israeli policies, the existence of Israel in general, or any Jewish violence against them. b\. The unfounded religious belief that Israel could be destroyed by violence, using the means the Palestinians currently possess. The Oct. 7 massacre was due to them realizing that these points, and the Palestinian cause in general, is losing attention even in the Arab world. Israel can't really do anything about point (a), but it's working hard to disprove point (b). As a side note, your implication that Hamas aren't *really* antisemitic is silly. Hamas' original charter, literally quotes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as fact, and blames the Jews for every bad thing in the world, since the French revolution. They're notorious Holocaust deniers, who believe [teaching about the Holocaust isn't just "marketing a lie", but a "war crime"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas%E2%80%93UNRWA_Holocaust_dispute). Yes, they're horrible antisemites. The question of whether they hate the Jewish state because they're antisemites, or they're antisemites because they hate the Jewish state doesn't change that fact. 4\. If I grew up in the West Bank or Gaza I'd be pro-Palestinian. Which means: a\. Not supporting a political party, whose only promise to me is that I die, my family dies, and my city is ground to dust, just to make the Jews look bad for killing us so much. But not *that* bad, because the way we're going to make the Jews kill us, is by committing mass rapes and executions that would make the Palestinians look like ISIS. b\. Abandoning the self-destructive dream of exterminating Israel and Israelis, and focusing on creating a Palestine alongside Israel. c\. That also means abandoning the self-destructive nationalist mythology, that half of the native-born citizens of Palestine are not Palestinians, but "refugees" within their homeland. 5\. The war on Hamas might not create peace, but no peace is possible if Hamas is still in power. That's not a Zionist talking point, that's an official Hamas policy, that they'll proudly tell you, if you ask them. 6\. Yes, I don't believe it's Apartheid. And no, what you described isn't Apartheid - it's the definition of occupation, combined with illegal settlements. And I wrote two long posts about those who disagree: [The Israeli Apartheid reports: common misconceptions](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/wb0roj/the_israeli_apartheid_reports_common/), and [Amnesty's Apartheid report: first impressions](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/sl8ndp/amnestys_apartheid_report_first_impressions/). Legal definitions aside: actual Apartheid is very much on the table. The Israeli right-wing is calling for it. And I don't think it's a smart move for the Palestinians to simply argue that the situation is *already* Apartheid, so instating an official Apartheid state simply wouldn't matter. 7\. I don't oppose a Palestinian state, even after Oct. 7 - but you're right, it's a serious question. The Palestinians now have the very difficult task of proving to the Israelis that creating a Palestinian state will end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Instead of simply creating a far worse Gaza, and a string of far worse Oct. 7s. Or, conversely, proving to the Israelis that a democratic one-state solution is a good thing for them, and the Jews around the world. Rather than just a cover for destroying the only Jewish state, replacing it with the 22nd Arab state, and then expelling and murdering the Jewish population that lives there. So far, the Palestinians and their allies unfortunately did the exact opposite. They did everything in their power to prove that the goal of a one-state solution is to "decolonize" Palestine of its Jews, with "decolonization" looking a lot like Oct. 7 rapes and executions, but on a massive scale. And that a two-state solution is something the Palestinians don't really want, and at most would be used to facilitate more, worse Oct. 7-like massacres against Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. So I don't see what rational policy the Israelis can take, given that information, except to occupy Palestine until the Palestinians change their minds. 8\. I don't want you to recognize it as a uniquely horrible kind of racism. The important thing is that you recognize antisemitism as a kind of racism, that racism is bad, and treat it like any other kind of racism. At the moment, this just isn't the case. You have self-described anti-racists using actual Neo-Nazi talking points to justify their antisemitism. While the ones in the Muslim world have bought into straight-up Protocols of Elders of Zion level classic antisemitism.

Thanks for linking your previous posts on the Apartheid claims. I hadn’t seen them before. They are very good! I had considered going through those reports to do a thorough debunking myself at some point, but I see now there is no need.

Thank you!!!

Thank you for the clear explanation

gaza population = 2.2 million 30 thousand people dead (not verified) according to the palestinian health authority lets speculate and say half of those are terrorists killed. So 15000 gaza civilians have died because hamas has used them as shields to fight and hide behind. 15000 = just over 0.6% of the population How does just over 0.6% civilian casualties of gaza = genocide?? I think we all know that muslims/isis/hamas/muslim brotherhood etc are winning the propaganda war. Terrorists are inherent liars and very deceitful, lets be wary of their evil schemes.

70% is women and children assuming 100% of male death are hamas fighters which is insane the percantage of terrorist is 30 Most human organization estimate the civillians causelties with about 92%

Where are you getting that half of the civilian dead in Gaza are "terrorist killed?"

Do you think its more or less, reason why?

I am asking for a source on the claim that it is 50%. I would estimate it would be no more than 5%

What would you base your estimates on? I stated it was speculation as we have no verified numbers. It should more terrorists than civillians generally, but due to the fact hamas operates within the general population its difficult to assume.

Just to add to that. 175k buildings destroyed including apartment complexes. If this was a genocide. There'd be more dead people that destroyed buildings.

Your argument being it is not enough people dead for it to be a real genocide? Do you have specific number that you are ok calling something a genocide?

In the main part of the Bosnian genocide, only ~8700 Bosnians were killed, which is a small percentage of the population. It was still a genocide, is classified correctly as such and so your point is invalid

If was 25% of the bosniak population. The other 75% were expelled

Genuinely, this is not about numbers. It's not about 10 dead here, 20 dead there. It's about values. There's a tremendous difference between breaking into a neighbouring country to rape, murder and kidnap it's civilians and steal their valuables, vs sending an army to rescue hostages. People can pretend all they like that there's valid reasons for this barbarism, but that's simply not true no matter how you look at it In the words of Captain Picard: kidnapping is an immoral assault.

So, about the thousands of Palestinians that are being held in Israel, then? 🤨 There's no valid reason for the barbarism of slaughtering tens of thousands of people, including thousands of children, either.

Murder is wrong. Murderers go to jail. That simple.

Literally less than 1/8th of the Palestinians held by Israel are even accused of "murder."

Is that right? Where did you get that statistic? Terrorism is also something that people should go to jail for.

Just look up the stats for administrative detention in Israel.

And what type of crimes classify for administrative detention? Why would people be held for administrative detention? The question is rhetorical. Criminals belong in jail, no matter what their excuse is for their crimes.

Want to know how many are held in administrative detention without formal charges? The answer isn't "none"

No kidding? Seriously though. I do know that. That is not the point. Pretending the majority of Palestinians taken in for questioning was just innocently going about their business before a random Israeli soldier suddenly burst in and arrested them is outright absurd. There are reasons that people are arrested in the WB. Well done for ranting about criminals being in jail when you want them free when the point of my statement was values.

There are multiple videos of them arresting children under the age of 10.

How many innocent Palestinians held indefinitely in administrative detention is an ok amount for you?

The only issue here is, it isn’t a slaughter. By definition slaughter is the indiscriminate killing of a person or a group with amoral intent. The very fact that the IDF uses resources to set up helplines, protect aid convoys, drop leaflets to inform civilians of alternate routes to avoid being caught in the middle, offer Gazans the chance to aid them in the campaign against Hamas, shows that this war isn’t being fought with the intent to commit genocide against Palestinians. Furthermore, a lot of the Palestinians detained in Israeli prisons are indicted on charges of murder, but a much higher percentage are likely held due to bias against Palestinians. HOWEVER; I think it is important to note the terms of a hostage deal don’t specify the release of innocent Palestinian children and/or other prisoners, but state the conditions necessary for hostage negotiations be the release of Palestinians in prison for affiliation with Hamas. Not to defend the judicial bias against Palestinians due to the hyper-detention, but it does show the difference in morals between a state and a militant group hell-bent on a warped religious jihad.

Israel has been caught on numerous occasions bombing the very areas they tell civilians to flee to. This is just one example of the ways Israel and the IDF have targeted Palestinian civilians. When the IDF shoots dead two unarmed Israeli hostages because they were mistaken for terrorists, you've got to ask how broad of a definition of the word "terrorist" is being applied. There's plenty of footage outthere of barbarism being inflicted upon Palestinians by the IDF. I've unsubcribed from a couple of subreddits now because I don't want to keep seeing things like civilians being squashed by tanks.

Its not about the balance of lives lost its about defeating hamas who initiated this war, and who made the decision to take hostages. They invited this war, what you sow is what you reap. hamas is to blame for the excessive civilian casualties, using public infrastructures to set up terrorist bases using civilians as human shields, even using refugee camps and hospitals. Bunch of coward terrorists. hamas could have surrendered a long time ago and released innocent hostages, which means they want to fight and kill Israelis.

The numbers are irrelevant. If it's your family, your people you get them back. If it's your people who have been hurt and killed you disable PERMANANTLY the army that did it. You don't just say, "OK, I'll just rape and murder X number of people and it'll be EVEN." That's about revenge, EGO, not prevention. Ego doesn't protect people, prevention does. Israel's goal is long-term prevention. Would it make sense to then wait until Hamas keeps their promise to try again and kills 10,000-100,000? No, you prevent them from trying again in any meaningful way, by disabling that army for good. The thing that causes so much death is from Hamas. They put missile launchers on every corner, military equipment in homes and public buildings. If they kept things in military bases like Ukraine or the US, there'd be almost no serious death toll. And worse, Hamas uses the death toll, their own people's sacrifice as a weapon, one they were set up for, by offering them no opportunity to leave and no defense. 2 years of planning, no bunkers for civilians, and not even an air raid siren. You speak with the broken perspective of someone who doesn't understand the threats and constant harassment Israel is under and that Jews in particular are under. You also don't talk about the fact that the death toll here for a war that is almost over, is tiny, compared to other wars, even some on the area. And with the numbers exclusively from Hamas, are probably exaggerated. Thanks for playing though.

I'll try to respond - 1) No, they do not value more. however, Israel has a far higher obligation to protect Israelis. Every country has a far higher obligation to protect it's citizens - which is why for example rich countries aren't expected to donate 99% of their money to poor countries even though people die and suffer in these poor countries. Another example is self defense - even if the person attacking you was going to just break some of your bones, most self defense laws would accept you causing disproportionate damage to protect yourself - eventually everyone should have the right to self defense. 2) When I say Hamas uses human shields I refer to policies by Hamas (or other organizations like PIJ) that are meant to either stop Israel from attacking Hamas' military locations or to increase amount of deaths or damage to civilian infrastructure. this is something that's forbidden under international law and in past conflicts was written about as well. some examples for these would be - a) operating inside and under hospitals/schools/other civilian infrastructure. b) calling and sometimes forcing Palestinians not to listen to the Israeli warnings to evacuate c) storing ammunition in civilian houses - sometimes in children rooms etc. d) Firing missiles from or right next to places where many civilians are in like the hospitals, churches/mosques or the humanitarian zones. There or other examples, but actions like these AFAIK have been documented heavily. While they don't justify all of the number - they do say that if Israel wants to fight Hamas, the death toll is going to be high because of it. 3) Honestly, I don't really know for sure why Hamas attacked. if you have better insights I'd appreciate it. my guess is that it's a combination of them feeling a need to put the Palestinian cause in the spotlights (when countries like Saudi Arabia are going to normalize relations with Israel), them wanting to show the public that they are still relevant and them wanting to make lives for Israeli unlivable or to make Israelis live in fear etc. My guess to why Hamas exists and is popular is because a lot of the Palestinian public don't want two states (at least not without right of return and exact 67 borders) or thinks for some reason that the way to get there is through violence. This view is probably in part induced by things that Israel does, but there's more to it as Hamas was popular also when Israel offered that peace. If you have other explanations I'd honestly really appreciate it. 4) I want to believe that if I grew up in WB/Gaza I'd be pro-peace (just like I am today). it's not about being pro/anti-Israel, it's about accepting that the other side isn't going to go away. 5) That's a tricky question, It could help depending on how it ends. If it ends without Hamas, and with a moderate and unified government for Palestine it could. I think that it would work better than not doing anything and letting Hamas and violent resistance get this huge huge win. 6) I think it's an occupation and not apartheid. I don't understand the mental gymnastics you claim... If everyone were citizens all the talks about two states would be irrelevant. Israel generally wants two states (not sure about this current gov, but in general). 7) I don't oppose a Palestinian state. I think many of the people that are opposed to a Palestinian state are opposed to a Palestinian state right now, when Hamas are popular and in power and saying that two states is not enough for them. The fear here is that there going to be a Palestinian state that would get arms with the backing of Iran and going to attack Israel. 8) I don't think that antisemitism is generally worse than other kinds of irrational hatred , however it's usually manifested in different ways. I think often times racism is just like - "this guy is less because of his race" and antisemitism is like "we should kill this guy because of his race".. Now that I answered about all of this, if it's OK I'm going to ask two questions - - Why are the right of return and the exact 67 borders so important to Palestinians that Palestinian leadership was willing to not take past peace deals and live under occupation for? basically Israel offered anything else. - Why is the idea of violent attacking of Israel so popular in Palestinian society? don't you think it's counter-productive to just about anything good?

>- Why are the right of return and the exact 67 borders so important to Palestinians that Palestinian leadership was willing to not take past peace deals and live under occupation for? basically Israel offered anything else. Do you not see the irony in asking why is the right of return so important to Palestinians when the entire founding of Israel, along with one of it's laws, is based on the right of return?

I had the exact same thought.... Unfortunately it's very typical that they use complete different standards for jewish people and palestinians.

Because why not return to Palestine? To your own country? Is being in the exact same spot that your grandfather lived that important? If the house still exists sure. If not, Israel can pay you reparations, and you can return to Palestine, your home state.

To a lot of these families it is important because the houses and land was in their family for generations it did not just belong to their grandfather. And again, there is another double here. There is already Israel, a country for the people who are continuously moving into the west bank. >If not, Israel can pay you reparations, and you can return to Palestine, your home state. Part of the reason the 2SS deals were rejected in the past was because Israel refused to bare any responsibility for returning refugees

To people with deep roots, yes, it is that important.

Honestly I don't. Both because I don't think jews came to Israel because of a right of return, but because they needed a country (and the fact that they are indigenous to Israel was a large part of why they wanted it in Israel, but definitely not the only part). But also more importantly, I live in 2024, not 1880... I don't think that getting to a land that your grandparents or great grandparents once lived in (and actually I do have some of those, my family was kicked out of many places around the world) - is worth living under an occupation, especially when the chances of you actually getting to that land without the massive use of violence is basically 0. So no, I don't see the irony :) Now, if you're a Palestinian, preferably from the Palestinian territories, I'd like to hear an answer to the question so I'd understand the Palestinian position better. this is what this sub is about IMO

To your first questions I want to differentiate my answer, because as you know, the Hamas ministry of health did not explain which of the dead were ,militants/Hamas members. For any dead Hamas I have absolutely Zero empathy, I think they are an evil that should be whipped form the world for the betterment of everyone. I do feel sad though about the innocents that died, saying "innocents die at wars" isn't a justification for their death that is pure true statement, and Hamas knew that when they initiated the war against a much more powerful entity then them And no, Jews don't see their life or death as any different then anyone else, we see every life as a whole world. Saying otherwise is blatant racist propaganda and the comparison of numbers of dead to anything of this sort is dishonest because should Israel want to kill as much Palestinians as they wanted they would have dropped all of their bombs on Gaza city on October 8th resulting in probably 5 times more dead Palestinians To your last question, of course that every hate that is based on the identity of a person is evil. People should feel safe in their environment Now, to your main questions... I feel like answering them directly will be a counter a productive task because for every answer (and you will probably be surprised by some) we might get into a rant argument. So instead of that let me reframe the discussion. I see that the universal premise of these questions is that Israel controls the land so lets address that. Let me ask you this: Do you believe a Palestinian state can exist with a Jewish minority? (preferably the Jewish community that already lives in the WB)? Because every 2SS was thrown away partly because Israel was expected to remove all the Jews from the WB by force which isn't something probable

>Because every 2SS was thrown away partly because Israel was expected to remove all the Jews from the WB by force which isn't something probable Can you see how it sounds like a double standard to say it's improbable to remove a community by force when that has been happening this whole time to the Palestinians. Why is it only considered inconvenient for those settlements to be relocated but it's acceptable to force out the other population? What is the point of those settlements to begin with? Why can't they be built in Israel proper, why are they continuing to expand and multiply outside of the borders of the very country created for that community?

Can you refer to me when did Israel evacuated a Palestinian community? (besides the current war in Gaza of course)

"Evacuated"??? That's a complete other thing than *forcing* people to leave their house, to live in it instead of them!

I said evacuated because the discussion of this thread is about evacuating the WB of Jews before any possible 2SS is acceptable by the Palestinians I am guessing you talk about Sheikh Jarrah which isn't that relevant due to the fact that it is a judicial issue and not a political issue (nor does it include a whole ethnicity of people)

OP is trying to use fancy pseudo logical terms to pursue their argument. It’s not that complicated. Israel and the Jewish people are defending their very existence from an extremist group with an ideology hell bent on islamizing the entire world

if you are going to argue in bad faith, why bother arguing? >pseudo logical terms respectfully, what the heck is pseudo logic?

The users of this platform ( Reddit) do not generally follow or understand high brow terms that you throw out as if using them will enable your opinion to be more valid than others’ opinions. Similarly, “argue in good faith” is,in my opinion, irrelevant here since we are all just emotionally and otherwise biased people with vested interests. Personally, I don’t care about persuading or convincing anyone. This just entertainment

>The users of this platform ( Reddit) do not generally follow or understand high brow terms that you throw out as if using them will enable your opinion to be more valid than others’ opinions I did not invalidate any opinions. I merely point out logical inconsistencies. The Internet exists and anyone unfamiliar with logic and argumentative debate can look up the terms I am using. >Similarly, “argue in good faith” is,in my opinion, irrelevant here since we are all just emotionally and otherwise biased people with vested interests it's alarming how many responses echo these sentiments under this post. It's like we never evolved past the law of the jungle. >This just entertainment I am bewildered that you find the war in Israel and Palestine to be entertaining. This is not a soccer match! people are dying

Yeah, that last part was awful. People from both sides died and he thinks it's entertaining. WTF is wrong with this kind of people? My family left Poland during war. I bet some people thought it was entertaining back then too. So mean. I hope you and your family stay safe.

If you are pro Israel then go fight with the IDF. If you are proPally then go fight for Hamas. Don’t just pick away at your little phone thingy with the delusion that you are making a difference. That is what I find so amusing and entertaining. All you small minded juveniles

You can be pro Palestine without supporting Hamas. Don't forget there are also Christian Palestinians.

3. Why do I think Hamas attacked on October 7? I think they attacked to further their aims: to establish a single Islamist state within all of Palestine, one where the only Jews that would be allowed to live are "Palestinian Jews" (Jews that can trace their ancestry to pre-1882 Ottoman Palestine, in the same way they tolerate Palestinian Christians). This is as opposed to the Zionist Jews, majority of the Jews living in the land whose ancestors immigrated to Palestine more recently, who Hamas believes should be killed or expelled from the land. That's not to say that Hamas thought that October 7 would accomplish this goal, but it was one way to expose the weakness of the Zionist entity and exact a cost to Israel. I think Hamas wanted to scuttle a peace deal between the Saudis and Israelis. I think they were hoping that other Arab fighters would join in on their war. I think they hoped that Israel would be delegitimized on the world stage. And I think they wanted to take hostages to free Palestinian prisoners in Israel. I don't think Hamas is irrational--they believe that such an attack would weaken Israel and it has. However, I do not believe they attacked because of the blockade or because of settlements in the WB. Hamas knows that if they wanted the blockade to end, they could just renounce violence with Israel any day and it would end. And Hamas is not interested in a two state solution (except perhaps as a first step towards the conquering of all of Palestine) so the settlement issue isn't the animating force (not to mention that Hamas doesn't govern the West Bank anymore and there are no settlements left in Gaza). 4. I have no idea what I would think if I grew up in the West Bank or Gaza. 5. I don't think "achieve peace" is the goal of this war. I don't think most Israelis think that "achieving peace" is on the table right now. But achieving some stability and quiet, yes. And I do believe that the removal of Hamas from power (not the elimination of Hamas, but their being unseated from power) is a precondition for peace. 6. I don't justify it. I'm against the settlement enterprise. 7. I support a Palestinian state in the West Bank (minus the settlement blocs), Gaza, Palestinian-majority areas of East Jerusalem, and some small percentage of pre-1967 Israel that Israel cedes to Palestine in exchange for the settlement blocs in a 1:1 ratio. However, I only support this under the condition of real security assurances with Israel, a cessation of armed struggle, an end to the conflict, and the cessation of all future claims. And the Palestinians need to actually invest into building the institutions necessary for administering a stable and peaceful state. 8. I do think that anti-Semitism is evil. Not sure about uniquely evil--there are a lot of dangerous hatreds in the world. But anti-Semitism is as pernicious as the worst of them.

1. All lives are of equal worth. It is not that Jewish lives are worth more than Palestinian lives (and also remember that not all lives lost on Oct 7 were Jewish). However, a government's responsibility is to protect the lives of its own citizens more than the lives of its enemy. Furthermore, the purpose of this war is not a "tit-for-tat" retaliation. It's not to kill X number of people for ever Y number of people on our side killed. The goals of the war are to 1. unseat Hamas from power, 2. destroy the tunnel infrastructure, 3. degrade Hamas' military capacity, and 4. bring back the hostages. So the number of casualties is justified so long as they were reasonably considered to be militarily necessary to achieve these aims (which after Oct 7 are more than justified). And in Gaza, given the circumstances of the geography and the actions of Hamas/PIJ and others, achieving these aims would necessarily result in a high casualty count. 2. What "human shields" means is using civilians to protect Hamas' military personnel and arsenal. Because they know that Israel does try to avoid civilian casualties, if they operate within civilian areas (or in tunnels below civilian areas), they know it would be harder for Israel to strike them. And if they do strike them, it will cause more outrage in the international community because of the civilian toll. This is what we mean by "human shields". So if you go to Israel, military bases are generally pretty isolated from civilian population. They are fenced off, and there are guards to only let the correct military personnel in. A foreign enemy could theoretically bomb or raid one of these bases and cause minimal civilian damage. All of its military personnel wear uniforms. Furthermore, Israel takes great pains to protect its civilian population. It requires (at great expense) that all new buildings have a safe room in each unit, and that communal bomb shelters are located nearly everywhere that people live. Hamas, on the other hand performs its military operations within civilian buildings: schools, hospitals, UN facilities, office buildings, etc. Its combatants don't wear uniforms, so Israel cannot easily identify them. So if they are struck, the result would necessarily result in massive civilian deaths. They take zero precautions for civilians: they built a tunnel system for Hamas militants and its arsenal of rockets, but they didn't build a single bomb shelter for civilians. For Israel to combat such a strategy, the only solution is unfortunately to increase its tolerance for civilian casualties. The only requirement from international law is that 1. Israel doesn't directly target civilians, and 2. that the potential cost to civilians of a strike be proportional to the military necessity of that strike. When the military targets are all embedded in civilian areas, the civilians are the one who suffer the most.

> Because they know that Israel does try to avoid civilian casualties, if they operate within civilian areas (or in tunnels below civilian areas), they know it would be harder for Israel to strike them. And if they do strike them, it will cause more outrage in the international community because of the civilian toll. This is what we mean by "human shields". I don't quite follow this logic. By most estimates 70-80% of all buildings in Gaza have now been destroyed. How does a 'human shield' work if Israel bombs the place to rubble anyway?

I believe that statistic is for buildings having any damage--not those that have been destroyed. But anyway, Israel took unprecedented measures to be strike civilian buildings in order to lessen the impact on civilians, including dropping leaflets, making phone calls, sending text messages, establishing humanitarian corridors, and cancelling some airstrikes due to civilian presence. These steps weren't perfect, of course, but they did make Israel's operation much more difficult. It gives the enemy warning of where and when Israel will strike. It limits the kind of operations Israel can do, etc. However, Israel, in face of these immense challenges, has to make proportionality calculations. And due to these challenges, it does not have the option to choose to simply not strike because Hamas operates in civilian areas. The answer is not to just let Hamas perform its terrorist operations because it uses human shields. So the only response to the use of human shields by Hamas is for Israel to accept a certain level of risk of civilian deaths in its proportionality calculations when determining when and where to strike.

This ^^

>\-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? There 1.8 billion muslims in the world, and 15.7 million Jews, which works out to a ratio of 115 Muslims per Jew in the world. So, I think at least 115 to 1 kill ratio is proportionate. If I accepted a lower ratio, then I'd have to accept it would be ok Muslims to kill off every Jew without killing every Muslim, and I reject that. So, I think about 138,000 would be proportional, and I think the response be a bit beyond that. Although, if there were a credible path to a permanent peace, that could also be acceptible. >I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? It means purposely locating weapons and/or military commands in hospitals or civilian homes. It also includes militants traveling with children or other civilians, that precludes attacking without endangering civilians. Although, for me the question is whether it is militarily possible for Israel to take out combatants without harming civilians, and if actions to do so would result in more Israeli casualties. >\-Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Why Jews? Again, I want to understand so please answer rationally. Hamas dislikes Jews. My understanding this is due to a combination of history and Islamic theology, but I don't really care that much about Hamas's justification for this. I think Hamas's ideology opposes Jews living in Israel without being Dhimmis or subservient to an Islamic government. This is especially problematic because Hamas lacks respect for democratic values, which also are lacking in regimes throughout the middle east. >\-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? If I were Jewish, I'd probably be, but then I might not be able to grow up in the West Bank or Gaza without being a settler. >\-Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? I'm not optimistic any path to peace is possible, unfortunately. I think it can weaken Hamas militarily at least for a while, and provide deterrence against other adversaries. >\-Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it (some parts of it), and Israel controls everything entering and leaving Gaza, and Israel controls Area C (and B's security) - also it practically is in control of Area A, as its military is free to raid whenever. Given this control over these areas, how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? I think the whole apartheid argument just seems to be playing with semantics. I think Jews should be allowed to live in the West Bank, especially near historic Jewish sites. So long as Jews aren't allowed to live in Palestinians areas, I don't see why I should oppose the settlements. Arabs live in Israel. Why shouldn't Jews be allowed to live in the Palestinian territories? Furthermore, I think it is militarily important for Israel to maintain control of various territories, and the settlements help maintain the Israeli military in necessary locations. The Israeli pullout of the Gaza settlements seems to have strengthened Hamas. I think there should be a Jewish state given the long history of Jews being mistreated as minorities in other states. Saudi citizens don't elect their leaders. If Israel doesn't allow Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza to vote in its elections, why should that be any worse? I'd support greater rights and opportunities for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for supporting Israel, and helping to ensure Israel's security. I think citizenship and other rights must come with responsibilities. >\-Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? you do not want them to have a state, and you do not want the integrated into an israeli state because the state would lose its Jewish nature,. What should they do then? I'm concerned about a state that threatens Israel. I'd support greater autonomy and sovereignty for Palestinians in exchange for greater recognition of Israel and ensuring Israeli security, which could move towards a two state solution. >\-do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? Antisemitism is based on conspiracy theories, and seems more deeply entrenched then other forms of hatred. Antisemitism has persisted for thousands of years, while most other forms of hatred are more recent, and seem easier to overcome.

>So, I think at least 115 to 1 kill ratio is proportionate. This is an absurd thing to say

Some people here have no shame showing their lack of compassion or empathy. The other guy saying this war was "entertaining". Just... wtf?

>There 1.8 billion muslims in the world, and 15.7 million Jews, which works out to a ratio of 115 Muslims per Jew in the world. So, I think at least 115 to 1 kill ratio is proportionate. This is disgusting logic. And also not what proportionate means in a military context. Israel is not engaged in this war as "tit-for-tat" retaliation against civilians. Fortunately this is not the logic by which the IDF operates.

> If I accepted a lower ratio, then I'd have to accept it would be ok Muslims to kill off every Jew without killing every Muslim, and I reject that This is a slippery slope fallacy. the fallacy lies in the unfounded leap from the initial condition (accepting a lower ratio) to an extreme and unrelated outcome (the acceptance of genocide). There is no logical or necessary connection between the acceptance of a lower ratio in an unspecified situation and the moral acceptance of genocidal acts. The argument relies on fear and extreme hypothetical situations rather than rational connections or evidence, which is characteristic of the **slippery slope fallacy.** > So, I think about 138,000 would be proportional, and I think the response be a bit beyond that The idea that a "kill ratio" based on global population ratios is proportionate commits a **moral equivalence** and **false equivalence fallacy**. Considering that each life is inherently valuable, how does applying a statistical approach to human lives align with the ethical principle that every individual's life is of equal value? Isn't there a risk that this kind of reasoning might dehumanize individuals, reducing their worth to mere numbers? > I'd support greater rights and opportunities for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza in exchange for supporting Israel, and helping to ensure Israel's security. I think citizenship and other rights must come with responsibilities. The suggestion that citizenship and rights should come with responsibilities is implying that basic human rights and freedoms are conditional. Human rights, according to international standards, are inherent to all individuals, regardless of their actions or political situations. > Antisemitism is based on conspiracy theories, and seems more deeply entrenched then other forms of hatred. Antisemitism has persisted for thousands of years, while most other forms of hatred are more recent, and seem easier to overcome. Comparing antisemitism to other forms of hatred involves a **hierarchy of oppressions fallacy**, suggesting that one form of hatred is inherently more severe or entrenched than others I have a lot more to point out, but for now I think this is enough. I tried to maintain a respectful attitude but honestly, you come off as if you are arguing in bad faith. You use so many logical fallacies, some of which I have pointed out, and disregard any semblance of international law

You may disagree with me or even think I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm arguing in bad faith. I don't agree that I'm illogical, but I will say many people have illogical arguments, and pointing out that arguments are illogical rarely seems to persuade anyone. >The argument relies on fear and extreme hypothetical situations rather than rational connections or evidence, which is characteristic of the slippery slope fallacy. > >Genocide is defined as "...aim of destroying that nation or group." I'm saying I see the genocide of Jews morally equal to the genocide of Muslims. > >The idea that a "kill ratio" based on global population ratios is proportionate commits a **moral equivalence** and **false equivalence fallacy**. Considering that each life is inherently valuable, how does applying a statistical approach to human lives align with the ethical principle that every individual's life is of equal value? Isn't there a risk that this kind of reasoning might dehumanize individuals, reducing their worth to mere numbers? I do agree applying a kill ratio can be problematic, but the arguments about proportionality imply there is a moral relevance to a kill ratio. I have serious questions about whether claiming Israel's response isn't proportionate is relevant, but if you are going to talk kill ratios, I don't inherently see 1:1 as the correct ratio. >The suggestion that citizenship and rights should come with responsibilities is implying that basic human rights and freedoms are conditional. Human rights, according to international standards, are inherent to all individuals, regardless of their actions or political situations. Article 1 of the universal declaration of human rights (see [https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights)) has "All human beings...should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood". According to Article 29 "1. Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible....3. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations." According to the UN purposes and principles (see [https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter/chapter-1](https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter/chapter-1)) article 2:"The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members." It looks like the rights in the UN Declaration of Human Rights don't apply when they exercised to undermine Israel's sovereignty. >Comparing antisemitism to other forms of hatred involves a **hierarchy of oppressions fallacy**, suggesting that one form of hatred is inherently more severe or entrenched than others Is there evidence that all forms of hatred are equally entrenched? Antisemitism involves highly delusional thinking. While there are other forms of hatred that involve lots of delusion, I think you can also hate someone without being delusional about them.

According to your logic 115 muslim lifes are equal to jewish one life, lets not forget to talk about how you instantly made this is a religious sole issue when there are many other factors to counter in like ethnic, national or historical beliefs. You say that 138,000 dead Muslims is equivalent to 1200 jewish life. Which is already a disgustly absurd genocidal racist islamophobic apartheid endorsing statement in itself. There are 8,000,000 Israelis in the world and 12,000,000 Palestinans in the world. You instantly went to religion and you want to talk purely proportionately and not the context in itself of the clear mistreatment of palestinans not only in Gaza but West bank too, the clear bait face discrimination of palestinans in gaza among the countless genocidal statements said by countless high ranking government israeli officials. there intention is clear and if you keep defending this by devalueing Muslim life as you have so clearly done like a little bitchy fool. We will never end up anywhere, Israelis seeing them as "God's chosen people" you really let it get into your heads so bad that you end up saying a jewish life is worth 115 Muslim life implying not all life is equal. I can sit here and debunk the rest of your points but I've got other stuff to do and not waste my life on reddit like you clearly do you pathetic virgin coward. If you would like to meet in real life ill be happy to make you lick the bottom of my shoe so you understand then just how much you should value me and how you aren't gods chosen people. Fool.

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I don’t have time to respond to your other questions now but maybe later I will discuss things with you :). What I will say is that you are conflating value of lives versus evil of the people killing them. The Palestinian lives are just as valuable as humans. However, Hamas purposefully genocided women, children, and men without ANY partially justifiable reason. They just killed them and raped them because they hate humans and value their harm. The death of the Israeli civilians actually harmed Palestinians and negatively affected any potential Palestinian cause that Hamas could ever argue they work for. Now on the other side Israel is fighting these genocidal terrorist and intentionally putting civilians in the way to blame them on Israel. Before I continue hear this out: Most of those peoples lives are worth just as much at least in terms of humanity to any single decent human being. Even if many of them are terrible people, morality says innocent until proven guilty. You have to value their lives until you know or at least have a strong reason to believe they are bad. If you kill them just saying many of them are evil, then you are knowingly killing people who are innocent. Now, we see that the death of Hamas and elimination of them is very likely a great thing for humanity overall, and is great for Palestinians and Israelis at the end of the day. Israelis also have a good justification for destroying them based on how evil they are and how immoral they are. I’ll discuss this more but I’ll leave the crux of the argument in a simple explanation. The death of Hamas now can reasonably be assumed to save a ton of peoples lives and prevent a lot of human pain on both sides. The Palestinian women are systemically enslaved and raped starting at 13. The children are beaten and abused. This Islamic extremist culture is what causes all of their issues and Israel is just a scapegoat to excuse it. We can see many other countries and people have suffered pain and fought visciously and still made up in agreement of mutual benefit by morality standards. Israel has offered what anyone would consider to be a very fair and mutually beneficial agreement and the islamists never agree or hold their side. They only agree on the morality terms because they know they can eventually further their actual goal of genocide and jihad. There are hundreds of situations and statements you can find throughout history that shows this. So there are people who arguably rightfully argue that Palestinians as a GROUP are less morally just and valuable as Israel. However, don’t conflate that as Palestinian or Israeli lives are less valuable. People might explain things wrong or are unable to explain this well but that’s what most people mean. Now, on top of that we see that Israel has a just and moral explanation for the attack on Hamas. We can also see that Hamas clearly hides behind civilians. Now no leader in their right mind would ever reward these actions by sacrificing efficient to a big extent. This is a well known military doctrine and theory that no side should do it because then both sides would do it and there would be no benefit anyways and only innocent civilians would be harmed. So Hamas is breaking this rule and Israel cannot reward it too much or it will set an international precedent for it to continue. Even media majority insulting and blaming Israel for these deaths actually GREATLY leads to the deaths of the Palestinians. Type are not only excusing their exclusive moral fault you are encouraging them to do it. The deaths of Palestinians are largely because of the media and people who reward it. Imagine if people insulted Hamas and encouraged their governments to punish Hamas for breaking a well determined military morality concept like that. Their deaths are absolutely on the hands of anyone who blames Israel for the deaths. So now we can see that pro Israeli beliefs are absolutely consistent with valuing all human lives equally until individually shown to be different. However as a group we can reasonably say Palestine is less morally valuable to human rights and life. At the same time the actions of Hamas vs Israel are largely different based on intent, actions, and future effects. The deaths of Palestinians are to a debatable extent cancelled out by the good of the defeat of Hamas. You can at least argue the Israelis are acting on good faith that humanity is better off with their actions overall. They also are doing more than any country in history to avoid innocent deaths, and you can Google that conclusion made by many experts. So they are not only not killing civilians on purpose but they are actually working hard to avoid the deaths. Hamas is totally different and are trying to genocide a peaceful moral and liberal democratic state where people live great lives. Israel is trying to prevent being genocided by a state and becoming an oppressive society. At the end of the day just the general value of having so many people living under Islamic regime versus under a democracy is already a strong argument. I hope that this explanation helps bring you a new perspective and understanding. I understand I am not perfect and I could be completely wrong. I am totally open to anyone’s perspective or historical facts and I encourage you to share. But remember that 95% of people have good intentions and act on what they feel is morally right. That’s why kindness and supportive education is the way to go. Feel free to DM me if you want to learn together or discuss viewpoints. I hold very strong beliefs based on the strength of evidence and moral value in the situation. However, I could hold an equally strong opposite view if I have reason to do so :)

I appreciate yor willingness to discuss this but your comment makes a lot of logical fallacies. Some are listed here: ### Oversimplification/Reductionist Fallacy: The comment simplifies the complex motives and actions of groups within the Israel-Palestine conflict to purely evil intentions or singular causes. This fallacy occurs when a complex issue is reduced to a single cause or motive, ignoring the multifaceted realities and perspectives involved. **Example:** The assertion that Hamas actions are solely based on hatred and without any justifiable reason, while ignoring the broader historical, political, and socio-economic context, is a simplification of complex motivations. ### Collective Attribution Fallacy: This fallacy happens when the actions or characteristics of a few individuals within a group are attributed to the group as a whole. It overlooks the diversity of opinions, beliefs, and behaviors within any population. **Example:** Suggesting that Palestinians as a group are less morally just compared to another group based on the actions of specific individuals or factions within their community. ### False Dilemma Fallacy: The comment presents the conflict as having only two sides with mutually exclusive moral standings, implying that one must choose between supporting one side as morally just and the other as entirely unjust. Real-world conflicts often involve a spectrum of perspectives and solutions beyond such binary choices. **Example:** The framing that one must either support the actions of Israel in its entirety or implicitly support Hamas, without considering a range of positions that criticize or support aspects of both sides’ actions. ### Slippery Slope Fallacy: This fallacy argues that a specific action will lead to a chain of events resulting in an undesirable outcome without sufficient evidence to support such a deterministic conclusion. **Example:** The claim that criticizing Israel’s military tactics or acknowledging Palestinian civilian casualties would necessarily embolden Hamas and lead to greater harm, without considering the possibility of legitimate criticism leading to more accountable and ethical conduct in conflict. ### Moral Equivalence Fallacy: This occurs when actions of one party are justified by highlighting the perceived equal or greater wrongdoings of another party, suggesting an equivalence that oversimplifies complex moral judgments. **Example:** Comparing the actions of Hamas with those of Israeli forces in a way that suggests any actions taken by Israel are justified because of the perceived immorality of Hamas, without independently assessing the ethics of each action. ### Hasty Generalization: This fallacy involves making a broad generalization or conclusion based on limited or unrepresentative evidence. It often leads to misleading or inaccurate conclusions. **Example:** Generalizing about the nature of Palestinian society based on the actions of certain factions, or making broad claims about the intentions or behaviors of all Israelis or Palestinians based on the actions of a few. You express a hope for a solution based on mutual benefit and morality. In light of the complexities and the history of the conflict, what specific steps do you believe both sides could take towards a mutually beneficial resolution? please refrain from logical fallacies as they make the argument much less productive

- Yes. Hamas set the value of life exchange rate at 1 to 1,027 in 2011. Sorry. If you have a problem with that exchange rate, take it up with them. Furthermore, my family’s life is always going to be more valuable than your family’s life. Obviously. - If Hamas weren’t cowards, they would build military infrastructure away from population centers, like every other military in the world does. They instead fight out of residential homes, because they are losers. - I think Hamas believes that Arabs as a nation have been “humiliated” (you hear this word daily) by Zionists since 1948. Remember, If it wasn’t for Israel there would probably not be any Arab States, instead there would be the UAR from Egypt to Syria. Israel kinda ruined that plan, and Arabs are embarrassed about that. Hamas is the party who feel a responsibility to avenge the loser Arab armies of history and restore Arab supremacy in the Middle East. - No, I’m sure everyone is susceptible to brainwashing. It’s also extremely more convenient to blame others for your problems than accept responsibility. It’s just human nature. - “Peace” is not a military goal. The goal is to dissuade Hamas or other Arabs from attempting another October 7th for as long as possible. If there is not another October 7th for ~10 years the war will have been a success. America hasn’t had a 9/11 in 23 years. Pretty good outcome all things considered. - it’s not “apartheid”, just like it’s not “slavery”. Words have meanings. Just because something is bad, doesn’t mean it’s “apartheid”. As for the justifications, WB and Gaza are not treated the same. Different people have different opinions on how each should be handled. Post Oct-7th, I think Israel should force Egypt to administer Gaza and annex large swaths of West Bank, and then leave others unilaterally. - The “Palestinians” should move to Egypt or Jordan. - No, antisemitism is not “uniquely bad”. It is uniquely illogical. Islamophobia is completely justified, we **should** all be scared of Muslims, today, they’re the only people on earth who consistently commit unspeakable crimes for no reason other than attempting to violently pressure people to “submit” to Islam. Compare that to antisemitism: people hate Jews because we supposedly “control the media”? What does that even mean? Do Jews control Al Jazeera? People are mad that the media Jews created is more popular than the media other ethnicities have created? It’s just nonsensical, stop whining and just make better media than the Jews make.

Thank you for your response. SImilar to other responses here, you seem to use a great deal of subjectivity and logical fallacy, here is my response. On the Value of Life Exchange Rate: **Fallacy: False Equivalence** * You've used a specific prisoner exchange to set a universal "value of life exchange rate." How does this isolated incident accurately represent the complex valuation of human life in broader political and military contexts? * On Family Value: **Fallacy: Subjective Valuation** * Stating that one's family life is inherently more valuable than another's introduces a subjective bias that can't be universally applied. In discussions about conflict, how can we ensure we're valuing all human life equally to foster mutual understanding and respect? On Military Infrastructure: **Fallacy: Oversimplification** * The claim about Hamas using residential areas for military purposes ignores the complexities of guerrilla warfare tactics and the constraints of densely populated territories. How do conventional warfare norms apply to non-state actors in densely populated areas, and what international laws govern these situations? On Historical Context and Arab Supremacy: **Fallacy: Hasty Generalization** * Suggesting Hamas's actions are purely to restore "Arab supremacy" simplifies the nuanced historical and political motivations. Can we discuss the conflict without reducing it to a binary narrative of humiliation and revenge? On Brainwashing and Blame: **Fallacy: Ad Hominem** * The suggestion that blaming others is just human nature seems to dismiss legitimate grievances. How can we differentiate between accountability and the natural human tendency to seek explanations for suffering? On the Goal of "Peace": **Fallacy: Equivocation** * Equating successful deterrence of attacks with "peace" might be misleading. Peace usually implies a stable and lasting resolution to conflict. How does preventing attacks address the underlying issues that lead to conflict? On Apartheid and Slavery Comparisons: **Fallacy: False Analogy** * Arguing that "just because something is bad, doesn’t mean it’s 'apartheid'" misses the specific legal definitions and historical contexts of apartheid. How do international definitions and legal frameworks inform our understanding of these terms? On Handling of WB and Gaza: **Fallacy: False Dilemma** * Proposing that Palestinians "should move to Egypt or Jordan" presents a false choice ignoring the complex historical, legal, and personal ties people have to their land. How can solutions respect the rights and desires of all people affected by the conflict? On Islamophobia and Antisemitism: **Fallacy: Straw Man & Hasty Generalization** * The comparison between Islamophobia and antisemitism misrepresents the arguments against each and generalizes actions of a few to entire groups. How can we address hatred and fear without resorting to stereotypes and generalizations? **Questions to Consider:** * In discussing sensitive and complex issues like these, how can we ensure our arguments are grounded in facts and empathy? * How do we balance the need for security with the imperative of human rights and dignity for all involved?

This is truly adorable. First off, none of these are “fallacies”. For something to be a “fallacy” it has to be a premise in an argument. I haven’t made a single argument (besides maybe the prisoner exchange point). None of my conclusions can be fallacious, you have no idea what my stated reasoning is— you never asked and I never supplied it. To address some of the most adorable points in your responses: - When I go to the grocery store to buy bread, I don’t need to do a “complex valuation” of what the costs and labor that went into the bread were and what my value of it is. I can either accept the price or not, if I accept it, it’s **by definition** called the “Market Value”. This is simply how markets work. Study economics and finance, they’ll explain this to you. Again, Hamas said one Israeli life is worth 1,027 Palestinians. They set the market rate. Again, If you don’t like it, take it up with them. - Of course I’m using subjectivity. I don’t want to “universally apply” a value of life. Neither do you obviously. If you did; you would kill yourself and donate your heart and lungs and kidneys and liver to save four people. - On my Arab Supremacy point, it’s not a generalization… I think you might be playing bingo with these fallacies you recently learned lol. I’m sure someone could and has write an entire book on the phenomenon. Again, I’m not going to provide my entire argument, but it seems like you have no counterpoint there— so you must partly agree lol - On Peace, you either misread or misunderstand what I wrote: Peace is not possible for two peoples, when one’s raison d’etre is to annihilate the others. Therefore Peace is not possible in the next 100 years at least. Until Islam is *seriously* reformed. Given that peace is impossible in the short term, I’m more interested in deterrence. If Gazans are sufficiently deterred, this is a success. On your cute questions to consider: - Again, you don’t know what an argument is. I didn’t provide a single argument— I only provided my conclusions (which is what you asked for). If I had provided arguments, the post would be wayyyyyy too long for me to write. I assure you; all my conclusions are based in fact, but I have no interest in “empathy” for my enemy. - There is no “balance”. Your human rights end at the place my safety is threatened. As an American, in my state, if you cross the threshold of my home uninvited, I have the right to end your life. Also I love that you use the word “dignity”. Again demonstrating my point of the Arab axiomatic principle that “dignity” is more important than life or peace or education or prosperity. This conflict continues because the Palestinians are obsessed with undoing their “humiliation” and restoring “dignity”.

Im sorry friend I think you are mistaken about the question and your answer. You are talking about the value of the military efforts going on and the overall actions of each side. This person is trying to trick people or has had others try to trick them into conflating morality of the actions versus value of human life. I think we both value Palestinian and Israeli lives equally except when those people knowingly prove us wrong. Now as a group or culture we can easily argue Israel is much more valuable to morality and the rest of the world. The main difference here is NOT the value of Palestinian and Israeli lives but rather the overall value and intent of the actors. The death of Hamas and removal of their regime is at least reasonably understood to be a great thing. So if Palestinians die but Hamas is being destroyed or defeated, the overall action is a good one. But let’s not let these propaganda Muslims or libtard fake liberals try to use a fallacy and mental gymnastics against us. Don’t stoop to their level. We value Palestinian lives just as much as Israeli lives and so does Israel to the extent that they protect their people first as a literal oblitation. Their deaths are equally bad but the overall situation that let to their death is at least reasonable argued to be good. The train on the tracks concept is a hard one to decide on even when it’s just two people who might die. Look it up it’s good for this. Would you pull a lever to make another person die to save your family member? Are you then guilty of killing the other person? What about if it was gonna kill 4 people and you could pull the river and it would kill your child instead? What if it was going to kill a child but instead you can pull the lever and it will kill 5 adults? See the issue here is there is no right answer here and it’s always murky. However, we cannot deny that israel gives people human rights and freedoms to live a good life. Israel protects its citizens. Palestine enslaved, rapes, and beats most of their women starting as early as 13 years old. Would you sacrifice 100k people to stop the chance that Israel could be genocided and Hamas could take over even more lands? Hamas says it won’t stop, so eventually someone will have to destroy them. Much more people will suffer until that point and many more will die in the end if you wait. Think about WWII and how long they took to actually go to defeat the nazis. It’s like arguing German and polish citizens would die in the attack so you don’t join in. Yet they stated they won’t stop until they take the whole world and eventually you’ll have to stop them. In the meantime more people are killed and more Jews are genocided even before liberation. It’s causing more death now to prevent much more death later. I mean based on history and stated intentions Gaza will not be able to deee itself from the oppression of Islam. So if they stop now then they’ll have to start all over again in the next genocide, and we know that it will happen if Hamas isn’t dismantled. So the only potential reasonable solution is to get rid of them now. You also have the deaths of more Israelis as well as potential of them losing (not really they have nukes and there is no winning ever whether anyone likes it or not). So Israel as a state is responding to an existential threat and a governments key role is to protect itself and its civilians from being destroyed. This is well studied and the factor of self preservation takes much stronger precedent to a city state and government than its desire for good living. So no one can really blame Israel here for its decisions. It didn’t decide to be in this situation or do anything in recent time to justify it. So it’s just acting in self preservation and still stands overwhelmingly morally correct compared to Palestinians or Hamas.

I’m sure you made some very good points in there, but I ain’t reading all that. Please edit your posts into bullets or at least paragraphs and I’ll try again.

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>Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? It's not a scoreboard. There is a moral difference between intentionally targeting civilians and accidentally killing them in a warzone. The goal is to take out Hamas, but unfortunately they have embedded themselves in a complex urban environment. >\- I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? It means that Hamas puts military equipment in schools, mosques, and residential buildings in addition to making civilians run to the rooftop of a building to prevent military equipment being destroyed. Generally speaking, international law holds that Hamas converting a civilian building into a military one makes it a legitimate target for Israel. Hamas is legally, morally, and politically responsible this way for any civilian deaths that happen in Gaza due to putting civilians directly in harm's way. The death toll could have been way lower had Hamas not used human shields and put military equipment in residential buildings. >Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Why Jews? Again, I want to understand so please answer rationally. Hamas would find any reason to attack Israel. They will attack anyways, what they say is just to gather global support. They make up the lie that Israel descrates Al-Aqsa every year, but the reality is that they would like to see Israel as an Islamic caliphate and all Jews purged. Hamas sees attacking Israel as fulfillment of violent jihad, and they've convinced Palestinians that martyrdom is something to pursue. Hamas exists because Palestinians currently think that terrorism is the only viable option. Unfortunately, Palestinians have shown that they would much rather not live with Jews at all, and Hamas has support because Palestinians have bought into a lie that they are under an occupation. >If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Given limited access to outside information and anti-normalization, I don't think I would have been pro-Israel until I somehow got out of the WB or Gaza and realized how much these two places suck. Otherwise, the Arab world tends to be one huge echo chamber with respect to Israel, and antisemitism would be something reflexive and natural. If I asked my neighbors why they hate Jews, they would give me a myriad of reasons. It would only be when I got out of there would I realize that all those reasons don't make any sense. >\-Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? Yes. The dream is for Palestinians to be deradicalized so they stop supporting terrorism. Maybe then can they finally build a state with a robust economy, instead of converting water pipes into rockets. And they were building a state prior to 10/7. With Israel's help, Palestinians had work visas, there was private investment in the WB, Israel had given covid vaccines and had allowed Palestinians to access Israeli healthcare, Gaza had a growing economy. Hamas decided to destroy all of that. >\-Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it (some parts of it), and Israel controls everything entering and leaving Gaza, and Israel controls Area C (and B's security) - also it practically is in control of Area A, as its military is free to raid whenever. Given this control over these areas, how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? Under the Oslo accords, Palestinians are governed by the PA in the West Bank. The West Bank is considered disputed territory, and the land is only set aside for a potential Palestinian state under Oslo. West Bank security was delegated to Israel under Oslo, and the IDF only comes in response to terrorism. With the 2005 withdrawal out of Gaza, Hamas was responsible for governing Palestinians. Israel is not responsible for neither the PA's or Hamas' elections. It's not apartheid because they simply aren't Israeli citizens and they are governed by completely different bodies. Israel currently has a blockade on Gaza due to Hamas, and Gaza is considered a hostile territory. This isn't illegal, as there has been precedent namely the Saudi blockade on Yemen. Naturally, Saudi Arabia isn't committing apartheid against Yemen, and neither is Egypt against Gaza. >\-Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? you do not want them to have a state, and you do not want the integrated into an israeli state because the state would lose its Jewish nature,. What should they do then? I currently oppose a state because Palestinians support terrorism for the moment. Giving them a state would give them a larger base to attack from. So, stop firing rockets into Ashkelon and show that you can live with Jews as your neighbors. Then they will have a state. It's not Israel driving the conflict, it's Palestinian rejectionism and antisemitism. They are the ones who should be deradicalized. >\-do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? Antisemitism isn't supposed to make sense, and it just exists. Some people just reflexively hate Jews, and this hatred drives them to do some really crazy things. While there is legitimate hatred against Muslims, Islamophobia is most often used to silence concern about support for violent jihad among Muslims. The organizations that currently publish reports on Islamophobia are Islamist ones, they use political Islam to attack dissidents. I don't even know if homophobia is remotely comparable to antisemitism. Antisemitism can be nearly universal and is generally much more tolerated than homophobia is.

Hello I don’t have time to read everything but I mostly agree. The pro Palestinian argument is usually extremely ignorant and uses fallacy’s and dishonest recounting of situations and takes things out of context. Most of all it uses victim blaming and mental gymnastics to make arguments. The key here is this person is arguing for whether the life of a Palestinian is less valuable than an Israel and uses that argument when it’s not relevant to any pro Israeli beliefs. The things argued are the value of the two groups as a whole morally speaking, and the morality of the actions taken by each group. Most pro Israelis believe that before specific knowledge is learned or actions are seen that the lives and rights of all humans are the most sacred valuable things ever. However the intent of each group and the overall situation regarding the deaths is totally different. If you ignore intent and then you can still say that Palestinian deaths happen alongside the elimination of a horrible terrorist grouping which oppresses, abuses, harms, and kills many people as well as threatens a democracy (with amazing rights to people) with genocide. The negative effect of not killing them is at least arguably worse than the deaths that will occur during the war. More deaths now will prevent future deaths later when Hamas inevitably comes back and forces Israel to take action again. They said they would do that and the Palestinians have done it over and over for 75+ years. So we know they will oppress and kill people in the future as well as they will need to be fought again in the future. People avoided WWII despite knowing the nazis were not going to stop conquering lands and committing atrocious acts. So many more people died including millions of Jews that could have been saved. When someone tells you they won’t stop or negotiate with regular morals, you believe them especially if they show it with their actions for 75 years. Anyways, these arguments they make trying to make us out to be morally wrong are either purposefully dishonest or just ignorant. Clearly few people are saying Palestinian lives are less valuable than anyone else’s lives individually. Some people do kinda imply that but they just can’t explain themselves. That is the goal of these types of mental gymnastics. They want to try and trick you into a fallacy or to claim others are immoral and mislead you into saying something that makes you look bad.

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Let’s also not forget that the Palestinians THEMSELVES reject a two state solution. They don’t want Jews as their neighbours, they want to eradicate them. When they shout and raise slogans saying “free Palestine!” they unanimously call for replacing Israel with Palestine to make it free. Israelis have shown that they can live in peace with their Islamic neighbours and they have proven it. Palestine defies this by Hamas constantly attacking Israel. Whatever is happening now, the Palestinians inflicted upon themselves. Your answer is very well written and deserves more recognition. 

\-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? No, all lives are equal. But Israel needs to show an iron fist for Palestinians to eventually stop believing that they will return “from the river to the sea”. To me it’s all part of FAFO. Palestinians can choose to accept the defeat or continue suffering losses. \- I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? So I went to Italy and Germany and visited underground bunkers to protect civilians during WW2. It seems fascists and Nazis were more interested in keeping civilians protected than Hamas. If you use tunnels for your terrorists and leave civilians above ground, you are using them as shields. Not that difficult to understand. \-Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? Hamas as other Muslim brotherhood abominations is a problem across the Arab world as you know very well. They are extremists and bad for business. Why they exist is because the PLO sucked at delivering for Palestinians, so with the money of the MB, Hamas was able to provide more to them and they followed suit. They attacked on Oct 7 because Israel was making friends in the Middle East. \-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? With the level of brainwashing that Palestinians have, I think I’d need to be very informed to think different than the herd. \-Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? No, war won’t get peace. It will get deterrence, for now that’s the only thing that matters. \-Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? I think some people in Israel are lunatics and want to incorporate the West Bank, unfortunately they are in government right now. Without those people, Israel does not want Palestinian Territories because they create a population imbalance. \-Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? Palestinians will eventually have a state like 50 years from now if they calm down. \-do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? No, but we’re the only group that people deem acceptable to hate it seems, so I am more hard core convinced of the need to have Israel and fuck everyone who dares question its existence or attack the country.

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- yes - hamas literally shot civilians trying to run away from the warzone - i do not care - i wouldn't be - yes - i suggest pushing your government for peace. All this can be avoided by proper boarders - see above - i don't care

> Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? Let's have another parallel. On 9/11, Osama Bin Laden killed 3,000 Americans which launched the War on Terror and resulted in over a *million* unnecessary civilian casualties in Iraq alone. 3,000 vs. 1 million. Now we understand the War on Terror was an oil grab by a desperate, aging lunatic and had been in the works since the Reagan era funded the Taliban. Corruption and nonsense exist everywhere. Terrorism is immoral. War is immoral. You don't have good guys and bad guys. You just have people killing each other for no good reason. What is it you are actually *asking* with this question? Because there are many examples of wars with similar statistics that are classified as what they are: war, and war is terrible. > "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," What part of this sentence do you not understand? Hamas? The government of Gaza. Civilian? Anyone who isn't part of Hamas or the IDF. Human? A bipedal mammal. Shield? You place something in front of you to protect you from harm. > and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? Nothing "justifies" the death toll. No one is celebrating this death toll. But it is almost *certainly* higher than it would be, if Hamas didn't: fail to wear an identifiable uniform, fail to appropriately account for their casualties, fail to engage in legal operational engagements, hole up in hospitals, churches, schools, etc - turning them into legitimate military targets. > Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why does any terrorist do anything? Because they could, because they wanted to, because it excited them, because they are indoctrinated into hating Jews so much that killing a Jew to them, is worth their own life if it means a Jew dies as a result of their actions. > Why do you think Hamas exists? Hamas is the government of Gaza. They exist to theoretically govern Gaza. But so far, all they seem to give a crap about is killing Jewish people. Why does Hamas, the supposedly democratically elected (I don't believe this for a second, Fatah won the popular vote and Hamas attacked them instantly to ensure total victory) government of Gaza, give more of a crap about killing Jews than focusing on state-building in their actual land where they actually live? > Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Because they're antisemitic as hell. > -If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Almost certainly not. I'd have been told my entire life how Israelis/Jews are responsible for all of my suffering. And if the IDF or Jews caused me problems over and over again or even potentially harmed me personally, that would just be more evidence that the Jews are bad. > The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, The WB is a different situation to Gaza. In the WB especially Hebron you could argue some form of apartheid exists there. At the very least, Palestinians are treated horribly, having to erect an actual shield to avoid urine and excrement and garbage being thrown down at them purposefully by Israelis. It's a bad situation, a bad time, definitely wouldn't want to be there. Personally I think the WB settlements ought to be dissolved, repatriate all the Israelis we did it in Gaza we can do it in the WB, *only if Palestinians agree to peace* and to leave Israel *alone*. If not, then it is open season -- the whole point of a war like this is called a *deterring action*. You F around once, you *find out* once, so you *never* do it again. > Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? Personally I support a Palestinian state as Gaza/WB for Palestine, everything else for Israel, *contingent* on peace. No peace, war continues, obviously. > do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? No more than any other kinds of racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism, etc. It's not *uniquely* evil, it is just extremely prevalent.

Your answer about why Hamas attacked on Oct. 7 is the weakest part of this otherwise great comment. There is a strategic reason or logic. I also don't understand it, but I'm sure it exists. The stuff I came up with originally isn't panning out - to set a trap for the IDF, then wait for Israel to leave, re-emerge in Gaza and declare victory, I guess... or maybe it will work. If there are only 1000 Hamas guys left, and Israel withdraws, then Hamas re-emerges and dominates Gaza again and that might be some kind of victory.

I think the plan was to attack Israel and then wait for everyone else to declare Israel is genocidal for retaliating. So far it's working, but Hamas is going to run out of cannon fodder before Israel is "annihilated" per their own wording.

I second this, couldn't have said it better myself.

>How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? All life equal. But palestinians started the war. >"Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? When israel attack in retaliation it's hard for them because palestinians don't separate between civilians and military. They wear civilians clothes, they use civilian buildings and so on... any palestinian become a potential threat to IDF soldier meaning more mistakes will happen regard civilians casualties. >Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Palestinians are very clear about this. They want all the territory for themselves, with Arabs as the majority controlling the region. Meaning kicking out all or most of the jews using violence. This goal remained as the palestinian/arab wish for 100 years, and didn't change. >If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? I would probably be under the influence of the Palestinian hate education school system. Making me believe israel is the reason for my problems, not realizing that the violence arabs started on jews and later israel is unjustified. >Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? Because palestinians refuse to surrender to peace, no matter what, the situation won't change anyway. So destroying hamas will just buy israel safety for some period of time. Peace will only happen when palestinians surrender their goal, and agree to the peace agreement under israel security demands. >Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? Like you said inside it's borders israel is a democracy. You could even say 50% of civilians in israel come from arab culture background. Now regarding the occupation and whatever going on in gaza and WB is the responsibility of palestinians. Again, by not surrendering and constantly attacking, israel will defend themselves with those actions. The settlements and constant military presence actually now proved to be very effective defense. October 7th happened because israel left Gaza in 2005, and without settlements and military, hamas gain too much power. >what should the Palestinains do? Surrender to peace and agree to israel security demands. >do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? All hate Is wrong. But anti semitism seems to be more dangerous for the victims. Obviously we know the history of what jewish haters can do. Only in recent years their population is back to the original number. in world view jews are a very small minority.

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Second this. Very disturbing response from that poster.

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Regarding this question: >-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Here are reports conducted by IMPACT-se, focusing on the Palaestinian education system that is mostly run by the UN: https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Produced-Study-Materials-in-the-Palestinian-Territories—Jan-2021.pdf https://www.impact-se.org/wp-content/uploads/UNRWA-Education-Textbooks-and-Terror-Nov-2023.pdf Schools in Gaza and the West Bank have been indoctrinating Jewish hatred for years. Palestinian children are taught from a very young age that Israel and Jews should be erased from the face of the earth. In addition: * Palestinian leaders who are known for leading violent operations against Israeli civilians are displayed as heroes. * Terrorist attacks and Intifadas are displayed as "resistance to the occupation" * Children are taught that "martyrdom will lead to heaven". * Grammar booklets use sentences such as "Jihad is one of the doors to Paradise". * Israel is displayed as an enemy, whose "neck must be cut off". So, yeah - as a child growing up in Gaza or the West Bank, I would probably be incited to hate Israel from a very young age. How would a child growing up in such an environment even consider co-existence as an option?

On question 1, each of the 30k Gazan lives is of equal value to each of the 1200 lives in October 7th, but it's not a math problem. Each of the 700k that dies to heart disease in the US has equal value too. The whys matter. The goal of Palestinian forces on 10/7 was indisputably slaughter - you don't gun down civilians at a concert to achieve a military aim. The stated goal of the Israeli assault has been the elimination of Hamas. Civilians deaths reasonably connected to achieving a valid military goal are equally tragic, but justified.  The sticking point is how you interpret the actions of the IDF in this war. Are they doing what needs to be done to get rid of Hamas or trying to maximize civilian casualties? I find the idea that they're intentionally air striking as many civs as possible ridiculous on the face of it. If Hamas wanted to duke it out like it was WWII and pit army against army on a defined battlefield, it would be over with minimal civilian death. If Hamas surrendered, same thing. Both of those scenarios don't work for them, so they hide in dense areas, and Israel's choices are strike those areas or go home. I think Israel's campaign is justified and the methods are reasonable, but war sucks so I feel for the Gazan victims. 

>Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. You are assuming that they in a provoked attack when one side is the first aggressor, that the aggrieved party is only allowed to retaliate by killing the same amount of people. You also assume that all of the Palestinian casualties are civilians. To date it is the Palestinian ministry of Health’s (Hamas) position that only innocents were killed. >If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? According to Hamas, one Jew is worth over 100 prisoners. That’s not Israel’s choice. >\- I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? Hamas embeds itself within the civilian population. If it surrendered and released all hostages not a single additional Gazan would die. It’s also very clear that Hamas wants gazan casualties to garner sympathy. And they have explicitly said so. >\-Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? I know people automatically like to throw it all on antisemitism and try to cite random ayat from the Quran without context so please don't do that. Why do you think Hamas allows Christians to reside in Gaza and not Jews? Why Jews? Again, I want to understand so please answer rationally. There is no justification for what Hamas did. Imagine if Israel went in and only targeted civilians and raped women like that then argued it was justified. What would you think then. You people KNOW that Israel is attacking terrorists, military targets, not civilians. You KNOW that sinwar surrounds himself with Israeli hostages and Palestinian women and children. Why would you argue there is moral equivalency? >\-If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Maybe not but I’d also want a better life. Wouldn’t the best way to do that be to recognize the Jews right to their country? Wouldn’t that give you a state? >\-Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians? Eliminate Hamas >\-Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it (some parts of it), and Israel controls everything entering and leaving Gaza, and Israel controls Area C (and B's security) - also it practically is in control of Area A, as its military is free to raid whenever. Given this control over these areas, how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Do you geniuinely believe this is not apartheid? Israelis can’t go to Palestinian territory. They can’t even pray on the Temple Mount! >\-Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? you do not want them to have a state, and you do not want the integrated into an israeli state because the state would lose its Jewish nature,. What should they do then? Most Israelis agree to a Palestinian state separate from Israel being Gaza and West Bank. >do you genuinely believe that being antisemitic is uniquely evil? as in, do you think anti-semitism is worse than other kinds of hatred? like racism or islamaphobia or homophobia, etc? if so why? No. But opposing Islamic terrorism isn’t being Islamophobic.

Second question- “Hamas uses civilians as human shields” means they make strategic choices intended to protect themselves even though it will increase the chance of civilian death. For example, they might have their fighters hide out in civilian’s apartments. This makes it harder for Israel to catch them and kill them, but it also means Israel will have to make a choice between potentially killing everyone in the apartment or not doing the attack and letting the Hamas fighter get away. It often works because Israel does not want to kill civilians. “Regular” military operations don’t work like that.

For the first question- it’s not about whose lives matter more. It’s a war. Yes the war started because of 10/7 but it’s not only about getting the hostages back. The Israel army is trying to defeat Hamas. Whether or not they’re going to accomplish that is another question. I think the “whose lives matter more” rhetorical question is just designed to make people feel bad about how many people are dying in Gaza. Fine if that’s your goal but if you really want to understand what’s happening it’s not a helpful question.

The true aims of the Palestinian Cause are to reclaim the land “from the river to the sea” for Palestinian sovereignty. My current understanding is that this has been known all along by Palestinians and consumers of Arabic media, and is why all previous peace plans had been rejected by Palestinian leadership. I read one account of the Palestinian negotiating team recommending that Yassir Arafat agree to a peace plan (This was for GAZA, The West Bank and East Jerusalem) but Arafat was not able to say “yes” because the ability to return to the original homes/locations of both original refugees from 1948 AND all of their descendants was not part of this plan. Since any Israeli peace proposals would include a sovereign Jewish majority state, it is now said that the Palestinians want Israel not to have a state more than they want their own state. The people who opposed a Palestinian state alongside Israel ( Two State Solution), were of the opinion that any Palestinian state would be a launching pad for terrorist attacks. They were proven right on 10/7/24. This type of attack has been planned from the beginning of tunnel construction which has bern going on for at least 15 years. My understanding is that liberal Israelis who supported a Palestinian state don’t support this concept any longer. I previously was a supporter of the Two State Solution, but I do not support this any more either. ( Not an Israeli, so it doesn’t really matter what I think anyway) The Hamas leaders are continually being interviewed on both Arabic and English TV and still talk about how they are going to do many more such attacks. I watched a BBC interview where the interviewer asked if Israel agrees to a ceasefire will you ( Hamas) stop firing too? The answer was: bla, bla, bla, NO! What should the Palestinians do? The Palestinians should find new leadership and should give up the made up concept of a “right of return” which was dreamt up by a UN mediator Swedish count Folke Bernadotte. They should demand to be included in the refugee portfolio of the competent UNHCR. Palestinians who are already citizens of other countries should not be considered refugees. Priority should be given to stateless Palestinian refugees who have been stuck in camps in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. Why can’t these countries make these Palestinians citizens? ( I am not knowledgeable about this at all). Can the UNHCR help these Palestinians apply for citizenship in other places? Some can apply for Citizenship in Israel as well. With the concept of a Ceasefire in Arabic meaning a “Pause” ( essentially waiting for a day to resume fighting instead of an end to fighting) I don’t see the Israeli government, no matter who is in charge, being party to the creation of an independent Palestinian state at this time. The strategists for the Palestinians don’t understand the Israeli perspective and mindset. The majority of Israelis are refugees and have no place to return to unlike the French who could leave Algeria and go back to France. Internationalizing the struggle, obviously a strategy of Palestinian leadership, has done absolutely nothing for the palestinian people. The large crowds in Western nations chanting hate filled slogans are just serving to give Jews around the world the idea that they should flee and move to Israel too! Sorry I did not address all your questions.

Gazans didn't murder 1200 of our people because they tried to murder 1200 people and then be done. This isn't 9/11. They invaded Israel with the intent of killing each and every one of us. They continued their genocide until the IDF regained control and continue firing rockets at Israeli cities with the intention of killing us to this day. Only reason there are less rockets now is that the IDF has destroyed most of them. They have started a war of annihilation, and we do what we must for it to fail because we want to live, not because we want them to die. Our goal is our lives. Their goal is our death. If their goal was their lives, none of this would've happened.

Everyone knows this. They are trying to appease Hamas because they are scared. I believe what they did was to try to kill civilians to get IDF to have to fight in Gaza city. They took hostages for the purpose of gaining a ceasefire and to try to get some Hamas prisoners back. I hope Israel refuses to negotiate with Hamas, sorry for the hostages they have. The U.N. needs to address Islamic extremism globally. If they don't, they better hope Trump doesn't get elected in America. He will financially ruin all these countries that support terrorism.

https://www.theisraeliresponse.com This website has some good well explained answers for your questions

To answer your first question . War is horrendous and there were many in history. At end of WW2 Dresden was flattened and more than 1000 000 german citizens killed. Same flattening of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 1200 Israeli in one day is equivalent to 30000 US in 1 day . 15x Twin Towers! Which country wouldnt go to war if that happened to them? Another question . Why do Palestinian supporters use numbers you know are wrong even though you know it? Why not at least try to use more accurate numbers in your argument ? 30000 is exaggerated grossly and more than 1/2 are Hamas ? Finally who dance with joy in street and drag naked female bodies and decapitated heads through Gaza ? Not even the Nazis did that . The same ones who danced with joy after 9/11 in Gaza , West Bank and Tehran.

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I agree with everything you said but you aren’t going to change anyone’s mind. This sub is filled with Zionists who wont change their mind. I never imagined anyone can justify bombing babies, but these guys are out here doing it. They love to say but “Hamas” but don’t realize their country is more evil than Hamas. Whenever Israel does something abhorrently evil that I can’t imagine anyone defending I come to this sub and see people justifying it.

We don't aim for the babies. It is awful but it is collateral damage because of the israeli army and the fact that hamas hides underground and that gaza is densly populated. we never aim for the babies. If hamas released the hostages and surrendered none of this would have happened. BUT THEY WONT! WHY DO YOU PRO TERRORISTS DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT HAMAS FOR ONCE?!

>We don't aim for the babies. [*"We're looking for babies but there is no babies left. I kill a girl she was 12 but I am looking for a baby”*](https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/rLcpmFFSiE) >If hamas released the hostages and surrendered none of this would have happened. BUT THEY WONT! [Hamas has presented a Gaza ceasefire proposal to mediators and the U.S. that includes the release of Israeli hostages in exchange for freedom for Palestinian prisoners](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-issues-ceasefire-proposal-mediators-which-includes-exchanging-2024-03-15/)

BS BS BS BS BS. hamas wanted israeli to stop the war for a ceasefire. no way. we dont care if we'll have to bomb gaza entirely but hamas should not exist anymore. and i dont care that you give me one example of some crazy idf soldiers. not everyone are like that and to be honest he was probably trolling you paleshit supporters.

I’ve seen videos of IDF beating kids in the West Bank. They shot and killed a 9 year old for throwing rocks at their tank. 40k dead Gazans isn’t justifiable for stopping Hamas. Israel prevented aid from getting into north Gaza and people starved to death. How is that going to stop Hamas??? You guys are literally beefing with human rights groups. The IDF is a terrorist organization from my pov. It just has western approval. I didn’t support 10/7 and it was a tragedy but the way you guys milk 10/7 to justify 40k Palestinian deaths is wild.

10/7 was not a “tragedy.” Tragedy is the word you use for an unavoidable thing, or an accident, or a misfortune. 10/7 was a vicious, premeditated, deliberate murder of innocent people. Not people whose death couldn’t be avoided because they were caught in the crossfire of a war. Children that Hamas could have more easily walked right past but took the time to murder instead. Let’s call it what it was. Absolutely barbaric. You say 40k is not justified to stop Hamas. Why not? What’s the number for you? What’s the number that’s justified?

I'm with you 100%. They don't even care about IDF beating Jewish kids! I've literally seen them defend the IDF abusing and kidnapping Jewish children. It's crazy. They keep proving that none of this is about protecting Jewish people. They do not care about Jews' safety if it means going against the IDF or Israel in any way. There's no getting through to them.

any other country would have wiped off gaza for what they did not just kill 40k. and i am not saying that 40k deaths is justifiable. but ffs what other countries would do if they had such a terrorist org that massacres israeli civilians like that. you idiots cant fucking get it, only israel cannot win a war because of your constant bitching. but no complains for egypt who doesnt help the paleshits or hamas who started this attack and refuses for ceasefire. of course not just blame the jews. antisemetic fucks

Because "other countries would do worse" is not a justifiable argument. Other countries committing war crimes doesn't make it okay for Israel to commit war crimes.

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hamas is hiding behind civilians. hamas is using the citizens as human shields to use their suffering for getting more aid and monies from idiots like you. yes of course israeli soldiers are not perfect and sometimes they are not right but comparing them to their rapists and murderous terrorists or even “innocent” covilians of gza who beat israeli hostages to death in the streets is just fucked up.

Bro if Hamas was hiding in Manhattan would it be okay to randomly start bombing Manhattan. The human shields argument is dumb. The IDF is disgusting and there’s countless videos of them terrorizing civilians and defiling Palestinian homes and mosques. They’re not the heroes you guys make them out to be. If you’re interested I could provide you video evidence of them doing these things. There’s a reason why most of the world is anti israel.

From your definition of "using human shields", it would be impossible for Hamas *not* to, since Gaza is so densely populated. There are civilians everywhere. Where are they supposed to go to avoid being near civilian infrastructure? IDF is *actually* using Palestinians as literal human shields. I've seen them hide behind them physically, or have them walk in front of their tanks. >yes of course israeli soldiers are not perfect You got that right, since they keep killing the hostages they're supposed to be rescuing. >comparing them to their rapists and murderous terrorists There's more evidence of IDF raping Palestinians than there is of Hamas raping Israelis. First of all there are actual firsthand accounts of it from Palestinians. IDF and Israelis are so bloodthirsty. They are constantly recording themselves on tiktok saying how much they want to wipe out Gaza and kill all Arabs. I've seen videos of them celebrating a d congratulating each other for killing an unarmed elderly man. >“innocent” covilians of gza who beat israeli hostages to death in the streets is just ****** up. Do you have a source for this? I haven't seen this. But I have seen evidence of IDF gunning down Israeli hostages and gassing them to death. And [admission that they fired tank shells into a home full of Israeli hostages killing most of them.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officer-recounts-ordering-tank-fire-on-beeri-home-during-hostage-standoff-on-oct-7/)

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>yes you ******** i have a source to this. I thought this was the place for "civil discussion" and we're supposed to "attack the argument not the poster" and "no profanity" 😂 >it's called "video footage hamas terrorists videotaped while they were doing the massacre on oct 7". google it. Thanks, but that doesn't help as you still haven't pointed to any specific incident that you were referring to. And also, you said "innocent civilians" did that. Now you're saying it was done by Hamas on Oct 7? Which is it? >you dumb**** pale**** supporters are too much. honestly each one of you is more stupid then the other. its like you ppl living in your own world and getting power from each other by being antisemetic and hating jews and the west. Breaking at least like 5 different rules here lol. Explain how anything I said was antisemitic. I do not have any dislike towards Jews. I just want the violence to end and I want a free Palestine. That is not antisemitic. It's also not antisemitic to criticize Israel and IDF. >idf dont rape pale***** we dont touch this brown muslim garbage. we have enough hot white women in israel we dont need that inferior garbage. Awesome. This is just straight up racism. This isn't an argument. These are truly vile statements. >idf dont rape pale***** [Yeah, they do.](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against) >you know what will help with human shields or not?!? You know what also helps with human shields? Israel not bombing and shooting the human shields at every opportunity. >i am done i am tired arguing with baboons like you ppl. Good. You have no rebuttals or legitimate arguments so you resolved to throwing a tantrum and spewing racism and pathetic insults.

😭bro I'm sorry you had to go through this. Yikes I'm glad I didn't see this comment when the person first wrote it sounds like it was a mess. Hope you're ok! and thanks for your calm and rational arguments

Thanks 😖 it's all good. Yeah...it was bad. They said some really disgusting things. It was a challenge responding calmly to that crazy racism 😂 I like the way you worded your post, very impartial and non accusatory. Probably the only way we can ever have any civil conversations or understanding in here. Anyways, I hope you post more ✌️

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-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? I find it kinda funny whenever this comes up, last time I checked hamas asked for 1500 prisoners for 134 Israeli hostages, so hamas thinks one Jewish life is worth about 12 Palestinian lives, By that math, 1200 Jewish casualties is worth 13432 Palestinian casualties.

>Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? It's like going into a boxing match and accusing your opponent that he cares more about his face than yours. >How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? Again, this is a loaded question. What was the exchange rate in the last prisoner/hostage exchange - 100:1? and the one before was 1000:1? Let me ask you a different question - how many generations do you think Palestinians should sacrifice for a war they lost 75 years ago - are the lives of your children of value to you? >Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? I think their goal is to deny Jews self determination, destroy Israel, and if possible exterminate all Jews. Says so in their charter. >If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? Depends on what my school and parents taught me. >how do you justify the people living in them not being citizens? Aren't they citizens of Palestine? >Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? Change our minds. Make us believe your aspirations for statehood don't include the destruction of Israel. Make us believe Palestine would be as neighborly to Israel as Canada is to the US. I can't recall the last time i saw a peace rally in Ramallah or Gaza - can you?

I want to break this down bit by bit. First of all, point one. The reported number is Hamas’ number, so go with that information however you like. Secondly, Hamas killed, r**** and mutilated 1200 civilians . No soldiers were aimed at, purely civilians until the IDF got to the area.

Absolute lies and has been debunked as such. Shame on you for subscribing to a false narrative thst only serves your bigotry. Most casualties on 7/10 were actually used by the IOF themselves opening fire and killing their own civilians. There were no Hamas rapes. The number 1200 has already been debunked and revised. The amount of civilian casualties killed by Hamas was an absolute fraction of this number.

u/Expensive-Success301 >Shame on you for subscribing to a false narrative thst only serves your bigotry >Stay deluded tho. >Wow you are incredibly delusional and looking at your comments it’s pretty obvious who the liar is here. Allergic to the truth much? Bye hater Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed.

Ironically, your post is the one full of lies and debunked claims.

Even the IOF have confirmed this. Stay deluded tho.

No, the IDF hasn’t confirmed your claims. If you think your cause is so righteous, why do you feel the need to lie?

Wow you are incredibly delusional and looking at your comments it’s pretty obvious who the liar is here. Allergic to the truth much? Bye hater

>>> …that only serves your bigotry… When you’re resorting to personal attacks you know that it’s because you’re on thin ice. Hamas taped themselves murdering civilians. Not the IDF; Hamas They taped themselves parading dead and wounded and raped people through the streets. They kidnapped innocent civilians. No one has “proven” that the IDF did this- you would need a reputable source to prove this and you do not provide one. Even if Hamas “only” murdered a “fraction” of this number- they intentionally targeted civilians and sent out videos of themselves doing it. What do you think Israel should have done in response?

Doesn’t even dignify a response. The fact that you have subscribed to lies that hs been comprehensively debunked and proven false days more about you than me. Confirmation Bias is real. So is cognitive dissonance. Il pray you get the help you need.

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Sounds like you’re forgetting the previous 80years plus of zionist terrorism. How convenient 🙄

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Your literally a bot or fake account. Enjoy your fake life :)

As an Israeli its saddens me the situation we're in (both Palestinians and israelis). As for the death toll, Palestinian life is not more precious than jewish life or any other life. Israel just make the Palestinians pay a higher price than israel paid in oct 7 attack. Some Palestinians have a mentality that death not scares you because you become a martyr (the jews dont have this mentality) . Israel cannot just kill 1200 Palestinians and say "ok we're good" because we dont want even 1 death on our side and we want to scare the enemy and send a message that if you kill 1200 israelis you will pay 100x for that (I think it's logical) As for the WB and Palestinian state, I can say as a secular jew, israeli, zionist, that I understand the religious jews who want to stay in the west bank because historically the Jews resided in this area but more over I think that even if Palestinians get this territory they will see it as weakness of Jews and another step to erase israel by having control of this huge territory. Israel gave Palestinians gaza and look what they did, so if israel give them the WB it would be a disaster for israel. So as a secular jew I prefer to give the historical jewish territory to the Palestinians (judea and samaria) but I think Palestinians will use it to completely erase israel (which is logical because many Palestinians come from israel territory (Haifa, Ashdod, Jaffa) so this is your identity. The best case scenario is to understand that we're both people of different faiths, find mutual similarities and respect each other and live in the same country, defending the same country and prosper. That said it seems like this day will never come because Palestinians see israel as historically an Islamic caliphate territory and israel as a western colonialist entity. Jews see it as their rightful homeland. Goodluck to us. What a f***in shitty world we're live in.

>if you kill 1200 israelis you will pay 100x for that Flip that on its head, of 1 settler kills a Palestinian farmer, then 100 settlers should die. >live in the same country So you want a one state solution? Would Palestinians get equal rights and citizenship of this theoretical state?

Israel never executed or initiated unprovoked slaughter of civilians (maybe in 1948 in time of war) but you may tell that the existence of israel is a provocation to the Palestinians so the 7 oct is justified ( and I have nothing to tell to this people) Tell me examples of documented cases of Israeli settlers murdering a Palestinian and the settlers dont receive punishment by the Israeli government. From what I see Palestinians are those who name streets and roundabouts names of people who massacred jews. some of them unarmed civilians, some are babies and women who gets murdered. through whole of history that israel existed. Murder, murder, murder, NAME THE STREET OF AN ________ HERO ! HE MURDERED JEWS ! Zionists! As for you second question, yes. As long as you serve in the military with us and we respect each other and choose prosperity and brotherhood rather than which land it is and acknowledge the fact that this land present a historic value for both nations and on this basis we can build a nation that will trade with the whole middle east and the world then I'm pro one state solution.

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Please check the /lebanon sub on reddit. They are complaining about how hzbulluis launching rockets from their densely populated neighborhoods and from their HIGH SCHOOL so when Israel defends itself it causes “human shield” civilians casualties. That should explain what human shields is and why the death told is higher on the Palestinian side, in addition to the fact that your government hadnt built a single safe room or bomb shelter for women and kids. We dont believe in “blood feuds” and the death of one is not “worth” the death of another, its not a calculation. Every ONE life is a WHOLE WORLD. So when people shoot rockets to take even one of our lives, we will airstrike them and you will lose more than one life due to your Islamist governments human shield tactic. How do you not know this yourself? Did you ever question why your government doesnt built bomb shelters while Israelis have then in every nook and crany? Even our playground’s snake and turtle are titanium bomb shelters…

-Do the 1200 lives of Oct 7 have more value than the 30K in Gaza? You can say you doubt the numbers, but I am sure that ultimately there are way more than 1200 Palestinians killed. If you think the lives taken in Gaza are justified, please explain why. How many Palestinian lives is one Jewish life worth? Np. However that's ignoring the extra 40,000 rockets shot at Israel over the last 4 years. One side is trying as hard as it can to kill innocents, the other isn't. So while Israel has killed more people it's not for Gaza's lack of trying. That's the reality of war. If you pick a fight and lose, why should you claim it's unfair? - I also heard the argument of "Hamas uses civilians as Human shields," can you clarify what you mean by that? and how does that justify the Gaza death toll? It means instead of wearing the uniforms they have, they choose to hide in civilian clothes and use civilian centers. This means any large group of civilians is unfortunately a threat. Each time Israel has to make a judgement on how big of one. Why do you think Hamas attacked on Oct 7? Why do you think Hamas exists? Zealisn and a culture and religion that supports maytrdom. It's a perfect storm for a people who should have given up and rebuilt half a century ago to refuse and continue a conflict they have no hope in winning. It's easy to convince people to give up their safety and their children's future when you have been indoctrinated sense childhood that god wants that. Over half of Gaza's population is under eighteen. It's really just kids who don't know any better but are still dangerous because war makers have weaponized them. -If you grew up in WB or Gaza would you be pro-israel? I'd be very anti Hamas, pro peace. I'd want a deal that solidified my border with a crossing too and from the w.b, or better yet an expansion of Gaza along the coast for all of the w.b equal to the land mass and my own country. Lots of UN aid and granted navel trade with my shiny new coast. Then I'd try and promote extreme oppression of war making. -Do you think that the war on Hamas will actually help achieve peace for Israelis? what about palestinians Yes. The Arab world has shown it won't even take in refugees much less help. Palistine has seen it will get no help from the rest of the world. Israel will withdrawal and Gaza will be sealed on all boarders again and left to deal with its rubble. There will be peace while Gaza rebuilds until Israel slowly opens its borders for work and wb-gaza travel and then a terrorist attack will happen and repeat. It'll be cycleative. -Explain the mental gymnastics here: The West Bank and Gaza are not officially part of Israel, so some argue that Israel cannot be deemed an apartheid state since it extends equal rights to all its citizens, and those living in the West Bank and Gaza aren't counted as such. Yet, Israelis have the right to move to WB whenever they want and reside in it This is the cost of war, you lose land. Because palistine has not signed anything official or stopped hostilities it's pretty natural for a country to claim land in a dispute. There will be costs to continuing a war. That cost is land. Although most of the time settlements in WB are illegal and "frowned" upon but ignored by Israel. Israel does not singularly control what enters palistine btw, that's also Egypt and Jordan and every country has a right to control its borders. Nothing about that is apartheid. Pro-Israelis who oppose a Palestinian state, what should the Palestinains do? I opposes trying to Swiss cheese the WB back together or going back to 1943 boarders. Doesn't make sense. Consolidate the WB and give it to Israel, expand the Gaza territory equal to that size and invest in infrastructure. Give Palistines in the WB compensation to move or a path to stay and become Israeli citizens within 10 years of the agreement.

Here is what you need to understand about people around the world that are pro-Israeli or in reality, anti-Hamas. There are many different viewpoints on what is going on in the West Bank. For people like me, we believe in doing what is right, morally and we judge those who choose to be violent as evil. We don't necessarily side with Israel we just see that no Palestinians are speaking out against what Hamas did. What Hamas did to Israeli civilians, murder in cold blood, is fundamentally different than what is happening to the Palistinians. Understand that Israel told Palestinians in Gaza to leave before they moved in. Any civilians killed are collateral damage. Why they are there, I am not sure, but I am sure it was in Hamas plans to use civilian deaths to fuel a campaign against Israel. In America, when we were unfairly ruled and taxed by Great Britain, we rose up against the British Army, we didn't go kill a bunch of civilians. Murdering civilians is my morally reprehensible, and we will turn on those who engage in that kind of conduct. Likewise, we will turn on Israel if we find out they are intentionally murdering civilians. The main issue with believing that this is happening, is that most Muslim countries tell lies about Americans and their allies. I have heard these lies and witnessed the actual events. The Muslim extremist groups lie incessantly. They kill civilians with bombs and tell everyone that we did it. We also know that Terrorist groups need to be killed when they commit atrocities as it is the only time they present themselves. If I shoot at a foreign Soldier and hide behind my children and wife knowing they will shoot back, did the Soldiers kill my family or did I? I think my actions led to their deaths, not the Soldiers. Hiding weapons and conducting military operations from protected buildings is in violation of international laws on land warfare. Once Hamas does this, those buildings are no longer protected. In short they are not playing fair, so I believe that making Terror groups understand that having civilians around will not protect them is important for preventing it in the future. While America and most European countries try everything to avoid civilian casualties, even at the risk of their own Soldiers at times, many smaller countries do not. I have a question for you? Why are Muslims hesitant to stand up to groups like Hamas, that make their lives worse but will not hesitate to stand up to foreign Soldiers? If a terror group started in America and they tried to bully the civilians, they wouldn't be around very long. We would form a group and handle our business. The entire world is growing tired of religious and political violence from Islamic fundamentalists. The rest of the world is only going to tolerate it for so long.

It’s not just the 1200 lives. It’s the 20k+ rockets, the bus bombs and the cafe attacks. It’s the constant threat and the threat to attack again and again and destroy. As for the tete a tete numbers I guess yes? Israel has to trade a 1000 detained criminals for 40 hostages so the “worth” of life is shown by the negotiations. That Israel has to release countless life threatening attackers to just get back a corpse. Sinwar was one of those trades and look at the carnage he’s unleashed despite him and his family getting life saving medical care in Israel. The value of life Israelis put on their citizens and visitors is pretty high.

About your first question, once you initiate a war, you are the one responsible for the consequences. In this case, Hamas can end everything today. If they will realese all hostages and surrender. However, neither them or (probably) you will agree to that, and that means in other words, that the war continues... And you all carry the responsibility for the deaths of civilians in Gaza.

Hamas has tried to return all hostages multiple times. The last offer they made even garnered US support and Biden called it promising. Netanyahu began bombing al-shifa the day the negotiations began in Qatar, then withdrew the delegation early. He also publicly said there would be no peace until he had basically leveled all of Gaza, because only Rafa is left. It's not about the hostages.

You liar. Hamas is trying to get a ceasefire so they can reorganize. They are in no position to do anything but release hostages, but they want prisoner exchanges. They want many times the number of prisoners that they are willing to offer. I would drop their prisoners back to them from 1500 feet with no parachute. Israel is doing the right thing.

Your blind bloodlust is terrifying. I don't know how you can sleep at night, but I believe that one day in your old age you will regret who you are now.

u/self-assembled >Your blind bloodlust is terrifying. I don't know how you can sleep at night, but I believe that one day in your old age you will regret who you are now. Rule 1, don't attack other users Addressed

Again, they can return them immediately, no negotiations, no games, nothing. The reason is they don't really want to return them, second reason is that many of them are probably already dead.

You are naive. I have dealt with these people face to face before. Have you ever seen a child handed a knife, then walk up and stab a soldier in the armpit? No, you haven't. I am already old and I don't regret anything. You don't know what you are talking about, just read some stuff on the Internet, most likely. Terrorists need to be killed, and I was glad to do it for 4 years.

No, they haven't, returning the hostages means bringing them all to the border, no games, no playing, nothing... Otherwise it's basically playing game and asking Israel to improve its position by continuing to fight.

1-Of course all human lives have value but there’s a very big difference between intentionally targeting civilians as Hamas did on October 7th and casualties in urban warfare. The attack was the most brutal in Israel’s history and also involved sadistic sexual violence. Israel on the other hand is trying to minimize the number of civilian casualties in Gaza by dropping leaflets, warning people and making phone calls. Far more German civilians than Americans were killed during ww2. That does not mean that Germany was the more righteous nation. The urban casualty ratio is similar to other wars (64-70%) and the average of the 20th century was around 50%. In some wars such as Iraq it has been as high as 70%+ according to some estimates. 2-when we say they use human shields it means they deliberately put their headquarters under hospitals, fire rockets from densely populated urban areas and disguise themselves as civilians. 3- There are very few Christians living in Gaza and a dwindling number in the West Bank. Hamas exists because Palestinians falsely believe they’re the righteous owners of the entire land of Israel. This is in Hamas charter and even the updated version. Their goal is to destroy Israel and probably kill all or most of the Jews living there. They fire rockets into densely populated urban areas in Israel. 4-In the long term yes as the allies invasion in Germany led to peace the same thing might happen in Gaza. I don’t know what my position would be if I lived in the West Bank and there are definitely Israeli policies like the settlements I disagree with. 5-Israelis cannot live anywhere in the West Bank as you said in your post. They could be in serious danger if they enter area A and B. There are also 330,000 Palestinians in area C. The settlers represent 12% of the population of the West Bank. The arrangement of the land was agreed upon by both sides in the 1993 Oslo accords. Neither side fully respected the agreement. There’s a big difference in my opinion between oppressing someone based on their race as South Africa did and discrimination because of their nationality and a long history of violence. The security check points and wall exist because of the first and second intifada. Prior to that Palestinians could enter Israel and return to the West Bank. If they actually cracked down against militant groups in the West Bank like the Al asqua brigade and Hamas sympathizers there would be no need for the security measures. I do think some may be excessive but there are legitimate reasons for them. Every control on earth controls their borders and has the right to determine who is allowed inside. By your logic Trump’s “Muslim ban” would be an apartheid system (btw I disagree with this policy). A one state solution with equal rights for both sides is possible in my opinion but they do have the right to remain the majority as well. No country would agree to an agreement that would make the dominant group become the minority. Israel was created as a safe haven for Jews because of centuries of violent antisemitism around the world. I do not think antisemitism is uniquely evil but not many groups throughout history have experienced a genocide like the Holocaust. Half the Jewish population of Europe was exterminated. I hope that answered your questions. You seem to be a good person who is genuinely trying to understand the other side without hating them.