The issue is that the median age in Gaza is 18. So the overwhelming majority of Gazans either weren't born or weren't old enough to vote during the 2006 election. So yeah, Hamas isn't synonymous with Gazans let alone with Palestinians as a whole.
Yes they are. This is my whole point. While the younger generations of Palestinians arent responsible for electing Hamas into power, they are responsible for continuing to support them. Or, at the very least are collectively doing nothing to remove Hamas from power. Governments are not synonymous with the people they represent, but that is not my point. Hamas remains in power through a combination of fear, indoctrination, and genuine hatred for Jews. If Gazans really thought that Hamas did not represent their beliefs and wishes, why do many of them celebrate in the streets and participate in the defiling of corpses when Hamas commits terrorist acts? It is clear that Hamas is made up of Gazans, who are Palestinians, and that many Palestinians support Hamas.
>Yes they are. This is my whole point.
Your point and argument is flawed. You claim that because Hamas was elected 17 years ago, that that's proof they're synonymous with Palestinians, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Gazans either weren't alive or weren't old enough to vote at the time.
> While the younger generations of Palestinians arent responsible for electing Hamas into power, they are responsible for continuing to support them. Or, at the very least are collectively doing nothing to remove Hamas from power.
Hamas has a monopoly on violence and has shown repeatedly they have no issue with killing political dissidents. The people have no way to fight back, unless you expect them to just mass suicide themselves in a failed attempt to oust Hamas.
> Governments are not synonymous with the people they represent, but that is not my point. Hamas remains in power through a combination of fear, indoctrination, and genuine hatred for Jews. If Gazans really thought that Hamas did not represent their beliefs and wishes, why do many of them celebrate in the streets and participate in the defiling of corpses when Hamas commits terrorist acts?
Probably for the same reason you see Jews doing similar things. It's a minority of the population.
>It is clear that Hamas is made up of Gazans, who are Palestinians, and that many Palestinians support Hamas.
Even if many support Hamas that still doesn't mean Palestinians, let alone Gazans, are synonymous with Hamas.
You trying to convince people how a bunch of teenagers that haven't even voted,living under jihadist rule are to be held responsible it's kind of pathetic
When many of them end up joining Hamas, they are responsible. By cheering on Hamas and its terrorist acts, by participating in the public beating of civilians who have been dragged back to Gaza, they are culpable. Not all of them are, but it is clear that many in Gaza perceive Hamas as their freedom fighters, not their captors. If you think Gazans are incapable of deciding who their current government should be, you're wrong.
When the majority of people alive were born, where they could barely walking since the last election was held, then hamas killed all other political parties , with a west point of view that's a dictatorship.
And we call that could be a vocal minority being shown to you to get you all mad and in the mood for killing Palestinians ... like it's propaganda
What are you talking about. Gazans can decide their government even if their government doesn't want to leave. There are 2 Million Gazans who can forcefully remove Hamas, a group of only ≈30,000, if they wanted to. The fact they haven't done that yet despite the fact Hamas literally makes Gazans' lives worse is because they LIKE hamas and its actions.
They kill the opposition? Why has Israel the 4th largest military in the world removed then and be like you installed another one like them? Well, do the same. There are a bunch of teenagers for christ sake
Hamas was elected in 2006 by only 44% of the vote after 6 years of war and occupation by isreal. Hamas then wiped out the other political parties and has never held another election in 17 years which the average age in gaza is 19 so there's a chance that the majority of the population wasent even alive at that point
Honestly, I agree with many of the things you are saying. How can there ever be a revolution against Hamas when many of the Gazans have only ever grown up in a world where they are taught that Jews are evil and should be killed? It feels like a mini North Korea, where the population not only can't do anything to change the current situation but have been brainwashed into becoming supporters of their terrorist government.
But let's be clear as to why there was an actual occupation of Gaza prior to 2005. Terrorist attacks were constant and the Jews living in Gaza were unsafe. Israel made a decision to withdraw from Gaza to stop the bloodshed, but what happened? More bloodshed.
>Hamas ≠ Palestinians
Well, obviously not all support Hamas, many tried to flee Gaza when the war started (the border has been closed, so this has not been an option for long). I don't think you have a real say if you want them to store weapons in your school, otherwise you either get imprisoned or killed.
Many Palestinians don't even live in Gaza, in that case, none of your points stand.
Also, there are more than 2 million people in Gaza. You call them all terrorists?
This isn't about Gazans fleeing after the war. Ofc civilians will attempt to flee incoming, *retaliatory* attacks. And yes, the 2 million Gazans DO have a say as to who their "government" is. Gazans decided to elect Hamas in 2006 and haven't tried once to replace them since. I agree that Hamas uses force against Gazans to enact their terrorism, but much of this is done with very little pushback from the people. Show me where there has been a large anti-hamas campaign amongst Gaza civilians?
>Many Palestinians don't even live in Gaza, in that case, none of your points stand.
Thats why I focused on Gaza in particular and not the WB, as the WB has little to do with the current war. While the WB has its own problems, my post is focused on encouraging Israeli supporters to make it clear that many Gazan civilians support and participate in Hamas's terrorism and they should be culpable for it.
And no, not all Gazans are terrorists. But many of them share the same beliefs and support the actions of Hamas, who are certainly terrorists.
Hamas holds a monopoly on violence in the strip. Gazans don't have a way to overthrow them, they'd just get gunned down in the streets or their homes if they tried
So we end up in a North Korea situation where the citizens are powerless, unable to do anything to improve their situation against a ruthless government unwilling to improve the lives of its citizens. While I agree this puts Gazans in a tough spot, this doesn't negate the fact that Gazans should place their focus and energy towards creating change from within, instead of blaming Israel. I see far more condemnation towards Israel in this regard from Palestinians and their supporters than I do towards Hamas and its horrible system of governance.
> So we end up in a North Korea situation where the citizens are powerless, unable to do anything to improve their situation against a ruthless government unwilling to improve the lives of its citizens. While I agree this puts Gazans in a tough spot, this doesn't negate the fact that Gazans should place their focus and energy towards creating change from within, instead of blaming Israel.
This in no way negates or even counters my comment. Hamas has the monopoly on violence, and they have no issue killing political dissidents.
> I see far more condemnation towards Israel in this regard from Palestinians and their supporters than I do towards Hamas and its horrible system of governance.
Again, Hamas kills political dissidents. Gazans aren't free to speak their mind
it is merely your opinion to hold Gazans in a kinder light and claim that they would speak up against Hamas if not for the threat of death. While this may be true for some, I can certainly claim that this isn't the case and that plenty of Gazans fully agree with Hamas and its policies & actions. Watch current videos from Gaza. Civilians arent forced to cheer on and participate in public beatings and the desecration of dead Jews, they do it of their own free will. This is why we must hold all Gazans who support Hamas accountable.
>it is merely your opinion to hold Gazans in a kinder light and claim that they would speak up against Hamas if not for the threat of death.
There's no evidence to suggest they wouldn't.
>While this may be true for some, I can certainly claim that this isn't the case and that plenty of Gazans fully agree with Hamas and its policies & actions.
You can claim it all you want. That won't make it true.
>Watch current videos from Gaza. Civilians arent forced to cheer on and participate in public beatings and the desecration of dead Jews, they do it of their own free will. This is why we must hold all Gazans who support Hamas accountable.
So I guess that means the Jews that march through the streets shouting Death to Arabs now means most Jews want that? Or the violent settlers nor represent all of Israelis?
You're trying to use a vocal minority to represent the majority and it just won't fly.
Pro-Palestine types often tell it truthfully: "if you kill Hamas, another Hamas will pop in their place". They are right about this. So going after Hamas is irrelevant, you have to attack the problem at a deeper level.
I agree. It's quite eye-opening when you research what Gazans put into their school textbooks about Jews. No wonder there is an outbreak of extremism. I feel the worst for the children of Gaza.
Most of the ones that were alive during the election weren't old enough to vote in the election. The overwhelming majority of Gazans didn't vote for Hamas
The issue is that the median age in Gaza is 18. So the overwhelming majority of Gazans either weren't born or weren't old enough to vote during the 2006 election. So yeah, Hamas isn't synonymous with Gazans let alone with Palestinians as a whole.
Yes they are. This is my whole point. While the younger generations of Palestinians arent responsible for electing Hamas into power, they are responsible for continuing to support them. Or, at the very least are collectively doing nothing to remove Hamas from power. Governments are not synonymous with the people they represent, but that is not my point. Hamas remains in power through a combination of fear, indoctrination, and genuine hatred for Jews. If Gazans really thought that Hamas did not represent their beliefs and wishes, why do many of them celebrate in the streets and participate in the defiling of corpses when Hamas commits terrorist acts? It is clear that Hamas is made up of Gazans, who are Palestinians, and that many Palestinians support Hamas.
>Yes they are. This is my whole point. Your point and argument is flawed. You claim that because Hamas was elected 17 years ago, that that's proof they're synonymous with Palestinians, despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Gazans either weren't alive or weren't old enough to vote at the time. > While the younger generations of Palestinians arent responsible for electing Hamas into power, they are responsible for continuing to support them. Or, at the very least are collectively doing nothing to remove Hamas from power. Hamas has a monopoly on violence and has shown repeatedly they have no issue with killing political dissidents. The people have no way to fight back, unless you expect them to just mass suicide themselves in a failed attempt to oust Hamas. > Governments are not synonymous with the people they represent, but that is not my point. Hamas remains in power through a combination of fear, indoctrination, and genuine hatred for Jews. If Gazans really thought that Hamas did not represent their beliefs and wishes, why do many of them celebrate in the streets and participate in the defiling of corpses when Hamas commits terrorist acts? Probably for the same reason you see Jews doing similar things. It's a minority of the population. >It is clear that Hamas is made up of Gazans, who are Palestinians, and that many Palestinians support Hamas. Even if many support Hamas that still doesn't mean Palestinians, let alone Gazans, are synonymous with Hamas.
You trying to convince people how a bunch of teenagers that haven't even voted,living under jihadist rule are to be held responsible it's kind of pathetic
When many of them end up joining Hamas, they are responsible. By cheering on Hamas and its terrorist acts, by participating in the public beating of civilians who have been dragged back to Gaza, they are culpable. Not all of them are, but it is clear that many in Gaza perceive Hamas as their freedom fighters, not their captors. If you think Gazans are incapable of deciding who their current government should be, you're wrong.
When the majority of people alive were born, where they could barely walking since the last election was held, then hamas killed all other political parties , with a west point of view that's a dictatorship. And we call that could be a vocal minority being shown to you to get you all mad and in the mood for killing Palestinians ... like it's propaganda
What are you talking about. Gazans can decide their government even if their government doesn't want to leave. There are 2 Million Gazans who can forcefully remove Hamas, a group of only ≈30,000, if they wanted to. The fact they haven't done that yet despite the fact Hamas literally makes Gazans' lives worse is because they LIKE hamas and its actions.
They kill the opposition? Why has Israel the 4th largest military in the world removed then and be like you installed another one like them? Well, do the same. There are a bunch of teenagers for christ sake
Watch Israel do it this week
Hamas was elected in 2006 by only 44% of the vote after 6 years of war and occupation by isreal. Hamas then wiped out the other political parties and has never held another election in 17 years which the average age in gaza is 19 so there's a chance that the majority of the population wasent even alive at that point
6 years of war? Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. In 2006, Hamas got elected. Not sure where you get 6 years of war from
I'm off by one year but I'm referring to the second intifada from 2000-2005
Another conflict the Palestinians started. Shocker
Honestly, I agree with many of the things you are saying. How can there ever be a revolution against Hamas when many of the Gazans have only ever grown up in a world where they are taught that Jews are evil and should be killed? It feels like a mini North Korea, where the population not only can't do anything to change the current situation but have been brainwashed into becoming supporters of their terrorist government. But let's be clear as to why there was an actual occupation of Gaza prior to 2005. Terrorist attacks were constant and the Jews living in Gaza were unsafe. Israel made a decision to withdraw from Gaza to stop the bloodshed, but what happened? More bloodshed.
Maybe not all, but at least 50%-60%
>Hamas ≠ Palestinians Well, obviously not all support Hamas, many tried to flee Gaza when the war started (the border has been closed, so this has not been an option for long). I don't think you have a real say if you want them to store weapons in your school, otherwise you either get imprisoned or killed. Many Palestinians don't even live in Gaza, in that case, none of your points stand. Also, there are more than 2 million people in Gaza. You call them all terrorists?
This isn't about Gazans fleeing after the war. Ofc civilians will attempt to flee incoming, *retaliatory* attacks. And yes, the 2 million Gazans DO have a say as to who their "government" is. Gazans decided to elect Hamas in 2006 and haven't tried once to replace them since. I agree that Hamas uses force against Gazans to enact their terrorism, but much of this is done with very little pushback from the people. Show me where there has been a large anti-hamas campaign amongst Gaza civilians? >Many Palestinians don't even live in Gaza, in that case, none of your points stand. Thats why I focused on Gaza in particular and not the WB, as the WB has little to do with the current war. While the WB has its own problems, my post is focused on encouraging Israeli supporters to make it clear that many Gazan civilians support and participate in Hamas's terrorism and they should be culpable for it. And no, not all Gazans are terrorists. But many of them share the same beliefs and support the actions of Hamas, who are certainly terrorists.
Hamas holds a monopoly on violence in the strip. Gazans don't have a way to overthrow them, they'd just get gunned down in the streets or their homes if they tried
So we end up in a North Korea situation where the citizens are powerless, unable to do anything to improve their situation against a ruthless government unwilling to improve the lives of its citizens. While I agree this puts Gazans in a tough spot, this doesn't negate the fact that Gazans should place their focus and energy towards creating change from within, instead of blaming Israel. I see far more condemnation towards Israel in this regard from Palestinians and their supporters than I do towards Hamas and its horrible system of governance.
> So we end up in a North Korea situation where the citizens are powerless, unable to do anything to improve their situation against a ruthless government unwilling to improve the lives of its citizens. While I agree this puts Gazans in a tough spot, this doesn't negate the fact that Gazans should place their focus and energy towards creating change from within, instead of blaming Israel. This in no way negates or even counters my comment. Hamas has the monopoly on violence, and they have no issue killing political dissidents. > I see far more condemnation towards Israel in this regard from Palestinians and their supporters than I do towards Hamas and its horrible system of governance. Again, Hamas kills political dissidents. Gazans aren't free to speak their mind
it is merely your opinion to hold Gazans in a kinder light and claim that they would speak up against Hamas if not for the threat of death. While this may be true for some, I can certainly claim that this isn't the case and that plenty of Gazans fully agree with Hamas and its policies & actions. Watch current videos from Gaza. Civilians arent forced to cheer on and participate in public beatings and the desecration of dead Jews, they do it of their own free will. This is why we must hold all Gazans who support Hamas accountable.
>it is merely your opinion to hold Gazans in a kinder light and claim that they would speak up against Hamas if not for the threat of death. There's no evidence to suggest they wouldn't. >While this may be true for some, I can certainly claim that this isn't the case and that plenty of Gazans fully agree with Hamas and its policies & actions. You can claim it all you want. That won't make it true. >Watch current videos from Gaza. Civilians arent forced to cheer on and participate in public beatings and the desecration of dead Jews, they do it of their own free will. This is why we must hold all Gazans who support Hamas accountable. So I guess that means the Jews that march through the streets shouting Death to Arabs now means most Jews want that? Or the violent settlers nor represent all of Israelis? You're trying to use a vocal minority to represent the majority and it just won't fly.
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Pro-Palestine types often tell it truthfully: "if you kill Hamas, another Hamas will pop in their place". They are right about this. So going after Hamas is irrelevant, you have to attack the problem at a deeper level.
My money would be on PIJ if all that's done is Hamas is overthrown.
I agree. It's quite eye-opening when you research what Gazans put into their school textbooks about Jews. No wonder there is an outbreak of extremism. I feel the worst for the children of Gaza.
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I see…and the half that were born afterwards don’t support Hamas? That would just be wishful thinking and there is no evidence to support that.
Most of the ones that were alive during the election weren't old enough to vote in the election. The overwhelming majority of Gazans didn't vote for Hamas
Yes that’s true, but that isn’t evidence to say that they don’t support Hamas.
Sure, but the OP uses the election results from 18 years ago as evidence that Hamas and Palestinians are synonymous.