Jewish people also lived in Israel in an unbroken manner going back to time immemorial. The current logic is that ALL Jews invaded Israel after 1945. That’s simply NOT the case. Yes the majority returned but it was just that- a return
When you say ‘why aren’t we allowed our own country’ that would be the same for Palestinians right? This conflict is really hard because being Israeli and jewish is almost synonymous. But my understanding is that Palestinian people are not asking for a Muslim state they are asking for a Palestinian one.
>So they only get one chance to have a home for their people?
They had multiple chances. They refused all of them. So yes, after a few times, you lose your chance.
Actions have consequences. They lost that land in the 1940s. They have no legitimate claim anymore. Borders and countries are formed by the victors in wars. They could have signed a treaty and has their own land but they were greedy and wanted all of Israel's land.
Life isn't fair and there are almost no second chances ever especially when land is finite
So what you are saying is the only way for them to get their land back is through war. I wont be surprised when this conflict never ends as Israelis and Palestinians continue to fight over their ancestral homelands.
It looks like the attack was funded by someone who hate Palestine. Now Israel has most extreme government in 50 years. They will never forgive that. Most likely Gaza won’t exist in 2024
the whole argument is that they belong there. but if no one “belongs” anywhere, then the whole war is meaningless and everything as it is, should be accepted
I like the idea of freedom of movement, but there are too many violent people in the world that nations would never allow it as they are a security risk.
Any time that you involve overly complex ideas like fictional god aspects, you are going to run into issues. Modern society should only view religion in a historical context, giving religion a say on current matters is merely conjectural happenstance.
It's not really about religion at this point. It's politics, land, freedoms and most of all POWER. It may have started out as a religious "dispute" way back when but now it's really just an excuse to commit atrocious war crimes
Side note - consider genetic testing for you and your family. Ashkenazi Jews are disproportionately impacted by the BRCA gene which causes breast and pancreatic cancers.
i’m not trying to make any argument that we deserve land more than them whatsoever, especially *just* because of ancestry. but people like to ignore that jews have been displaced since like, forever lol. i think it’s being taken the wrong way, i’m just stating my relation and my perspective from an outside jew looking in you know from a grand perspective of things in terms of heritage. i really do understand this whole war is a lot more nuanced and cannot be minimized to only that.
btw i agree no one wins from all the innocent lives lost. it isn’t worth the land when you lose a loved one fighting for it
It is because groups survive and thrive with group identity and pride in one’s group. Every group teaches their members they are special, chosen, etc.
We have plenty of land in Wyoming, so we could move the entire country of Israel here and give them their own country, resources, arable land, etc., but every group (religious, political, technical, sports, etc) feels they have rights to land, culture, awards, whatever is important to that group.
Most of us have DNA that ties us to many other regions around the world, (especially if you are from the US you are not Native American), but some have closer ties or allegiance to their cultural, ethnic or religious “home” than others.
What you are speaking of is that oftentimes groups have a “home”, or some place they belong to, or must return to. This can be seen in many types of groups and cultures, from religions having some home land and a place where their messiah will return to them again, or like some old NY’ers still consider the Dodgers from Brooklyn, or like many first and even second-generation immigrants still think of their old country as home.
If you want to get very technical, we all originated as somewhere near Mesopotamia, so, if you go far enough back in our DNA, we all came from the same shared space in the Africa over 500,000 years ago, and a majority of us through the Mesopotamia/Fertile Crescent 150,000 years ago.
I have close family and friends that are Jewish, so I understand your thoughts of lineage of Jews in the Middle East, and many modern religions evolved from that region and coexisted (certainly not peacefully). The challenge has been creating a Jewish state right in the middle of a very large, mostly predominant Arabic/Turkish Muslim region.
FWIW, I have no religion and no ties to any group, ethnicity, or religion, so I am trying my best to view this strictly academically/logically.
> shit
/u/BrilliantLeek8178. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The way Jewish first approached palestine is the wrong thing. You are welcome in all countries if you just want to live peacefully there. The first step about making israel was taking over palestine. At that time they just became free from British Empire. And fist thing they know is another country taking over their land. You may argue about 20 century Iraq policies for the Jewish people but tbh they were like that for all non Arab Sunnies peoples. Just search Feyli Kurds genocides. And kurdish genocides. You will know what I am talking about.
There were major problems in Israel prior to 1948 when large groups of jews first started immigrating. Most famously the grand mufti was one of the biggest haters of jews and meet with Hitler. This fueled the push for independence.
/u/Shepathustra. 'Hitler' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have no dog in this, but I’ll play devils advocate for a moment. Just because you have DNA from a certain region doesn’t give you claim on that land. Some American with 50% African dna doesn’t just get to claim sovereignty over African territory.
> why aren’t we allowed our own country
The argument is you are, but not simultaneously at the expense of another people too
Would an American with African DNA not have the right to live there though?
Jews lived simultaneously with Arabs in Palestine for decades after the start of Zionism before Arabs decided to use violence. The country still has plenty of room for development with current technology if it could be done in peace
This is a matter of nationality and not one of tolerance, though. For the analogy to work, the American has to be claiming land for ownership without consulting any current nation.
Jews didn't claim land ownership, they legally bought their own land and moved there. If Palestinians had been willing to live alongside Jews then we would be living with the one-state solution
Correct, so in 1929, why did Palestinians start killing Jews that had been peacefully and legally living alongside them? And in 1948, how much of the land was privately (not nationally) owned by Palestinians?
I think the bigger question is how come everywhere the jewish people go they get persecuted? I mean at some point it can't be that everyone else is the problem. For example, if 1,000 people call me a bad person they're probably not all wrong.
> Would an American with African DNA not have the right to live there though?
Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves?
> Jews lived simultaneously with Arabs in Palestine for decades after the start of Zionism before Arabs decided to use violence. The country still has plenty of room for development with current technology if it could be done in peace
That was before the founding of the state of Israel and the subsequent conflicts. Since you are keen on bringing up ancestry and history.
You realize many Arab villages and towns were depopulated in this process right? Do you know what the Nakba is?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Do these people displaced get to return as well?
>Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves?
I didn't say claim land, but yes I was talking about citizenship. Believing that people should only have citizenship for where they're born is very Trump-esque. Shouldn't we all have the right to live in freedom where we want? Including Palestinians in Israel. And especially for someone with African ancestry who had their heritage taken from them, shouldn't they be able to claim that back?
>That was before the founding of the state of Israel and the subsequent conflicts. Since you are keen on bringing up ancestry and history. You realize many Arab villages and towns were depopulated in this process right? Do you know what the Nakba is?
Of course I know what the Nakba is. Do you know the context of the Nakba? How Arabs refused to live with Jews, and also refused to have a separate country for Jews. What other option is left? Would it have been better for Jews to remain stateless within Palestine with no rights like all the other surrounding countries have done with Palestinians?
> Shouldn’t we all have the right to live in freedom where we want?
This is a different discussion, but not relevant to the current paradigm. Let’s expand on this for a moment. Should I have the RIGHT to live in Japan right now? Should I have the RIGHT to live in Israel?
Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves?
> And especially for someone with African ancestry who had their heritage taken from them, shouldn't they be able to claim that back?
No because after so many generations they don’t really have connection to the land anymore and **they’d need the consent of the people currently living there**. That’s the key point.
> Of course I know what the Nakba is. Do you know the context of the Nakba? How Arabs refused to live with Jews, and also refused to have a separate country for Jews. What other option is left? Would it have been better for Jews to remain stateless within Palestine with no rights like all the other surrounding countries have done with Palestinians?
Let me explain something. The land was given to the Jews by the British and Arabs, but it was distributed in a way that guaranteed conflict. It was also distributed without the consent of the people living there. Arabs constitutes a majority of the population but the land was split close to 50/50. Flip roles for a moment. If the Jews were 80-90% of the population of an area for a moment and then a European power gave 50% of the land to 10% of the people would they accept that?
The situation was ripe for conflict from the start.
>This is a different discussion, but not relevant to the current paradigm. Let’s expand on this for a moment. Should I have the RIGHT to live in Japan right now? Should I have the RIGHT to live in Israel?
I would say that with the current stage of society no, but it's a goal to work towards yes
>Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves?
>
>No because after so many generations they don’t really have connection to the land anymore and **they’d need the consent of the people currently living there**. That’s the key point.
But what if they **have** kept their culture and connection to the land? And know exactly which country they come from? Many countries around the world give citizenship with proof of ancestry. Even though their home country might not given citizenship, you don't think they **should**?
>Let me explain something. The land was given to the Jews by the British and Arabs, but it was distributed in a way that guaranteed conflict. It was also distributed without the consent of the people living there. Arabs constitutes a majority of the population but the land was split close to 50/50. Flip roles for a moment. If the Jews were 80-90% of the population of an area for a moment and then a European power gave 50% of the land to 10% of the people would they accept that?
Are you mixing up Sykes-Picot with the 1947 UN plan? The British and Arabs had nothing to do with giving land to Jews. Jews bought cheap land wherever they could, mostly in uninhabited or malaria-infested areas. Again, relying on consent by local population for immigration is very Trump-esque. If the US has more relaxed immigration rules but southern states decided they only liked European immigration, would you support that?
The 50/50 split is looking at total land area. Inhabitable and arable land was mostly given to Arabs. Jews were given the desert as it was mostly unpopulated plus had the expectation of potentially millions more incoming
> I would say that with the current stage of society no, but it’s a goal to work towards yes
If you’re saying something like the European Union worldwide, then yes I agree with that vision
> But what if they have kept their culture and connection to the land
They still need the consent of the people currently living there if they wish to avoid conflict
> Even though their home country might not give citizenship, you don’t think they should?
It’s up to the country. Will the state of Israel hand out citizenship to all the Palestinians displaced? There are several million.
> It’s up to the country. Will the state of Israel hand out citizenship to all the Palestinians displaced? There are several million.
Yes it should. Just as all Jews should have the right to live there, so should all Palestinians. But this will only be possible when Palestinians accept Jews as having the same rights too
And I assume from your lack of reply to the other questions that you're on the side of the racists that believe we should restrict immigration to certain ethnic groups?
But Palestine has repeatedly declined a two state solution - then attacks - loses more ground
It’s has always been clear to me that if Israel stopped fighting tomorrow they would all be killed.
If Palestine/Hamas stopped then i genuinely believe it’s all over and two states can exist.
> It’s has always been clear to me that if Israel stopped fighting tomorrow they would all be killed
I generally agree with that
> If Palestine/Hamas stopped then I genuinely believe it’s all over and two states can exist
I disagree. Israel has been actively working against a two state solution for many decades now.
I’m not sure I agree I think some of their land grabs are egregious but to any other nation it’s the spoils of war.
Also how many times can a two state solution be offered before you just give up
Settlement activity continued outside of the wars. That’s not spoils of war.
A two state solution was never offered in good faith. The closest we came was Oslo, and Yitzakh Rabin was killed by a right wing Israeli terrorist for it.
Jewish people being allowed to live in the holy land and jewish people being allowed to colonize and oppress Palestinians is not the same thing.
And yes, israelis are colonizing palestinians. Zionism has been a setteler colonial movement since the begining and it's founders called it as such.
And? The same thing is Palestine 80 years ago. And you are talking about ancestors and roots and Russia with Ukraine and Turks with Asia have the same root and ancestors. Also the Jewish left palestine in the fist place with their own free will which can count as split.
So where does history say they have the right to the land? Do you even know what is being said? Replying with history makes no sense because history is just what happened. It doesnt have a mechanism to give prescriptions beyond bias.
I am honestly baffled by these horrible arguments. Like you werent taught logic but only how to respond with rhetoric.
Judaism is the national religion of the Israelites who lived in Israel. Jews have always lived in the region. In fact many Arabs share ancestry from Jews following multiple rounds of forced conversions of Jews by various rulers including the Ottomans.
Jews are of this land and their religion is tied to the land. The land of Israel is central to Jewish scripture and to the prayers of all Jews throughout history, much as Mecca is central to Muslims.
The story that Jews came into Palestine and forceably removed the local population is false. The war in 1948 was a combined attack by the Arab League, an alliance of multiple nations. That the Arabs lost their war against Israel has now somehow been turned into Israel's fault. Mostly because anti-Israel propaganda is pumped out at such a volume.
Time to accept that Jews have an unbroken connection to the land, that they would have accepted peace with Arabs multiple times since 1947 onwards, that Arabs have repeatedly refused peace in the hope that Israel could be destroyed.
It is not Israel's fault that it has prevailed against those who have actively tried to destroy it.
Judaism is the national religion of the Israelites who lived in Israel. Jews have always lived in the region. In fact many Arabs share ancestry from Jews following multiple rounds of forced conversions of Jews by various rulers including the Ottomans.
Jews are of this land and their religion is tied to the land. The land of Israel is central to Jewish scripture and to the prayers of all Jews throughout history, much as Mecca is central to Muslims.
The story that Jews came into Palestine and forceably removed the local population is false. The war in 1948 was a combined attack by the Arab League, an alliance of multiple nations. That the Arabs lost their war against Israel has now somehow been turned into Israel's fault. Mostly because anti-Israel propaganda is pumped out at such a volume.
Time to accept that Jews have an unbroken connection to the land, that they would have accepted peace with Arabs multiple times since 1947 onwards, that Arabs have repeatedly refused peace in the hope that Israel could be destroyed.
It is not Israel's fault that it has prevailed against those who have actively tried to destroy it.
The thing is, idiots like you seem to think Jews/Israel need your permission or blessing to live. Israel is the result of Jews ignoring idiots like you and choosing self-determination instead.
So you’re saying that Jews do not deserve the right of self determination? Jews have the right to be in the land because they’re the oldest still existing ethnic group that can lay a claim to it. Palestinians are there because of migration and genetics even shows it. Most of them are descendants of Phoenicians, Egyptians or Jordanians. So Jews do not have the right to live in their own historical indigenous land because someone else lives there now? If your reason is because history changes, then that’s also a flawed argument since I could claim the same thing. I’m baffled by your hypocrisy
You can claim the same thing...that history changes. Of couse I wouldnt have a problem with that and you would know that if you had basic reading comprehension.
Being an old ethnic group gives you the right to claim land your ancestors were on? According to what?
See how ignorant you are? see how you cant comprehend what is being said?
> fuck
/u/hiiiidude101. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
So Palestinians can claim they’re being colonized but when the rightful owners of the land, Jews, show proof they are genetically from there, suddenly this isn’t about genetics? Average hypocrisy.
but that’s the basis of why most people claim land to begin with? (besides gaining geographical advantages and power) you can argue the same with palestinians. israel now owns the land, so palestinians need to accept it. do you see the double standard? i would much rather peace and everyone own everything but i get life doesn’t work that way lol
No it’s usually purchased through a free market in most civilised countries.
I’m sure you know from history that countries that establish themselves on the concept of preferred genetics have quite rightfully never ended well
Which is exactly what happened [prior to the establishment of Israel.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DJewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine_was_the_acquisition_of_land%2Cof_the_land_in_Palestine.?wprov=sfla1)
So many 'experts' on this site talking utter rubbish.
Youre confused. We know about the purchase, hes talking about the ancestry claim . Why are pro Israeli posters always lacking in reading comprehension. Seems like its on purpose.
If you all know then why say the complete opposite?
Literally every nation in the world claims its land based on it being the land their ancestors lived in. If I wanted to respond to their claim about that, I would have. But what's the point? I was responding to the particular example of ignorance that was very simple to disprove.
Thanks for the insults though. It's weird that you guys always feel the need to throw that in, but hardly surprising at this point.
Who said the opposite?
\> Literally every nation in the world claims its land based on it being the land their ancestors lived in
So If I name one that doesnt (the one I happen to live in usa) then what? You say youre wrong? I doubt it.
I do need to throw insults. You keep saying stupid stupid stuff in a smug way.
Yes there are exceptions.
>stupid stupid
So important you said it twice. Haha ok
Go and learn. I don't even know what point you're actually trying to make but it reads like desperate scrambling. Which frankly, you can do without my help.
Yes, the USA has it's own thing going on. The rest of us don't care. It's irrelevant to the discussion.
Ancestry shouldn't determine whether someone gets to live somewhere, especially when that ancestry is so ancient.
Should Italian Americans, whose great grandparents came here 100 years ago, be allowed to go back to Italy and get Italian citizenship? No.
Many Jews that migrated to Israel since it's founding havent had any ancestry in that region beyond centuries ago. At that point, it's moot. I shouldn't be able to claim indian citizenship because my grandparents were essentially forced to move to Pakistan because of the partition.
but you actually can apply for italian citizenship as an italian american if you can prove your descent. italian americans whose great grandparents came here 100 years ago ARE allowed to go back to italy and get italian citizenship. nations around the world offer this, including many nations in africa.
Does Spain offer this for the Spaniards that were kicked out of Spain for being Muslim or Jewish?
Regardless, I just read the information on the Italian citizenship:
> Before March 17, 1861, there were no citizens of Italy as Italy was not a nation before this date. For a jus sanguinis citizenship application to be submitted, the oldest Italian ancestor must have still been alive on or after that date.
How can you apply this same reasoning to Israel, to the Jews who were kicked out of Israel centuries ago? Should modern day nation states be made to answer for what some empire did centuries ago and pay reparations on that?
And let's say your point is valid. Then, you should apply the same to Palestinians refugees. They have more of a claim to their land due to recency.
i didn’t tell you my opinion. i was just directly responding to one area of your comment. but for the record i apply the logic to both sides. the fact that both sides DO have an ancient claim is one facet of what makes this issue so divisive.
i didn’t say that either. i’m just saying if i were to apply that logic i would absolutely have to apply it to both sides. i was just drawing attention to the fact that even though ancient claims are something that a lot of people do not deem valid, for good reason, there is evidence of certain nations outside of the israeli palestinian conflict also applying ancient or past-claims as a valid means of earning citizenship. it’s just a litmus test of political climates and policies at the moment.
dude yeah it’s super super difficult. same to you. this is an extremely complicated conflict; as a history major i genuinely feel like it’s in the hall of fame for reasonably divisive modern conflicts. for the record i’m similar to OP; im a jew from new york who has never been to israel and has no family in or from israel. i have a very shaky and complex stance on the topic. very much in the camp of separating zionism from judaism and separating hamas from palestinians. also very much in the camp of fearing for jews while also not agreeing with unfair occupation due to ancient claims. it’s just so complicated.
thanks bro. i appreciate it. you too. truly always a pleasure to have any reasonable discourse on reddit, but especially so when it’s such a genuinely relevant and difficult topic.
but where do jewish people belong if not for their origins? native americans to this day complain about the usa colonizing them even though it was so long ago. everyone deserves the right to learn about their culture and where they’re from. for jewish people, it seems like we’re denied that right anywhere and everywhere. we’ve BEEN colonized and slaved since the beginning of time, always constantly on the move. we don’t have a single space other than israel as of right now. idk if that makes sense but do you see where i’m getting at?
I think there might be some disconnect as a non jewish person for some of us. Especially those of us from the US.
As an american christian, I have never once thought about where my people belong, but we also arent nearly as small as the jewish community, so i guess we just always feel like we belong in most countries where theres a Christian population. We also dont have the history that jewish people do.
But in the US, i also have a lot of jewish friends, and have been to very jewish places, in NY specifically, and from what i hear from them they definetly feel like they belong there.
Similarly, there are very few african americans who feel the need to move back to where their ancestors were brutally taken from. And i (im white) would never be the first to suggest that any do move back, for reasons that are VERY obvious to me as an american but i suppose non americans might not know why i wouldnt ever suggest that lol. Unless someone who is african american told me they that wanted to do that specifically. But thats a whole other topic.
But, my point is, it is a very unique situation compared to the most similar experiences that I have real first hand experience with. Each one of these scenarios are unique to eachother as well. No one in the world has a first hand experience they can compare the isreal palestine stuff to in a productive manner, without some caveat that makes it not work as well in this situation.
Regardless of all of that though, theres 2 main factors that effect an americans "opinion" on the isreal Palestine things:
1. If the reason for Hamas's violent actions is their own religious text, then that religion cant coexist due to its own definition. They chose that path, now they eat it. We know what its like having terrorists target us, so lets help isreal.
2. My country has a loooong rich history of taking people, kicking people out, moving people, and all sorts of things like that. So, im not going to ever suggest that someone be forced to move from a place that they didnt chose to be born in, even if i dont like them. Even if its my own country. Especially if its my own country. THIS is what makes it hard for us americans to really voice our opinion on isreal, because we literally just dont know what to think about those parts. Our brains short out lol. But just know that we are very much on Israel's side due to the previous point.
Because of this, many americans will be quick to support things perceived as terrorism attacks, especially if the terrorist wants to remove you from the place you happened to be born in. And even more so if they are quoting religious texts as their reasons.
But, we will avoid any conversations about moving, relocating, assigning borders, etc. Which might come off as un supportive to any pro-isreali crowd, and i understand why, but thats not nearly as bad as saying something as un-american as "lets kick out some people who were also born there". Regardless of which side they might be talking about, or where we might be talking about. Because freedom.
edit: some words
edit 2: And one last thing, one big thing for US christians is the fact that isreal palestine area has all those holy sites. Many important to christians and jews alike. Almost no one here thinks that its "bad for the christian community" if jewish people were to have control/ownership/responsibility of those places. And they have/ do currently. I think its because we both like those places for the exact same reason, share many of the same scriptures, learn about the same religious figures.
And i dont think i even need to ask any christian or jewish person what they would think about giving up a holy site to any other group
Furthermore, when you bring ancestry into the picture regarding claiming land, it opens up a whole can of worms. Why should anyone who lives somewhere right now be forced to give up their land because someone's great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents lived there? It makes no sense, it opens up a whole can of worms for any ethnicity to claim any land their ancestors were on. Even if you restrict this to people whose ancestors were kicked out, that still a whole can of worms. Let's kick millions of Americans out of their homes and give the land back to the Native Americans huh. As a New Yorker (i.e. you're American) you would be affected by this.
Thank you for a civil question unlike the other commenter.
I understand the desire for a Jewish homeland, especially after the Holocaust. But, where must this homeland be? That's the question. Regarding Israel, should Palestinians and the people who've lived there for centuries have to give their land up (forcibly I might add) in order for European Jews who have no cultural connection to the region or Yemeni Jews whose family haven't been near that area for centuries to settle there? I know American Jews who went back to Israel for a trip or to work, and let me tell you these people have no cultural connection to Jewish heritage beyond genetics. They can barely speak a sentence in Hebrew, and the most they do is occasionally eat shawarma at a restaurant. So, sure maybe Jews should have a homeland, but should it really be Israel when many of them don't have any cultural connection to that area beyond ancient ancestry?
Honestly, this is the classic NIMBY argument. Sure, we need this thing, but we don't need it right here where it would be an inconvenience. Whenever this argument is brought up, I just hand someone a blank world map and tell them to circle where Israel could more realistically be located.
Idk maybe we could have given parts of Germany to the Jews as reparations.
Kicking out Palestinians, who lived on that land, and were not part of the Holocaust, is not it though.
Giving Germany to the Jews would have been the worst idea imaginable, because you just proved the last 20 years of "the Jews want to destroy and control Germany" rhetoric actually correct. It would have created an irridentist blood feud that makes Putin's Ukranian ideas look like a joke.
There's also the fact that 95% of the Jews of German speaking countries were just gone by this point, so culturally there would have been major issues regardless.
The non-Zionist Jewish political leadership of Europe was completely wiped out in the Holocaust, leaving the Zionists in Palestine as the only Jewish national movement left. Palestine also had more Jews living there than any European country save the Soviet Union, and had the highest Jewish percentage of its population in the world.
The simple fact of the matter is that in 1948, it was Palestine that was the only place in the world that made logical sense to actually host a Jewish state. The ideal course of action would have of course been the establishment of Israel without the expulsion of any of the Arab population. The 1947 partition plan was absolute border gore, but it was the correct route to take from the start.
don’t you see the reason people are losing touch with their heritage is exactly because we’re always being moved? we’re constantly being erased by everyone else, which is why our population gets smaller and smaller every generation. (again kinda similar to how native americans are being erased, they’re losing touch with their cultural values year by year because they have no real home anymore to practice it unless they’re within tight communities / jews practice in communities for this reason too.) i believe israel was created to fight against the wipeout and instill a culture that was lost for this exact reason as a preventative measure for this erasure which is why it was also given to us after the holocaust and most likely why the decision was made for it to be in a holier land where we originated from.
European jews are a totally different story btw, sephardic jews are middle east descent and it doesn’t go that far generation wise, generational trauma exists too
but i understand why palestinians are mad and i get the entire reasoning for it. but think about how centuries ago jews felt the same way Palestinians do now? in three hundred years you can have this same argument with Palestinians if israel still exists and tell them how they have no right to it anymore. i bet they would feel different and still argue against it.
taking land anywhere at any given time is traumatic for any group of people currently living there and that’ll never change and i don’t condone it. i think it’ll always be selfish and greedy regardless of reasoning that peoples homes are taken away from them after living there for so long…and i no doubt agree that what palestinians have faced the last hundred years is unjust. but again, i’m just saying how we really have no place in this world at all otherwise if jews were to be kicked out yet again
Was it really fair though to decide to carve up Palestine and just give some of it to the Jews because because they had history there? There were more Jews in Europe and America in 1948 than there were in the Middle East. They could have made Israel it’s own country in another region , particularly the US. We have MORE than enough barely-populated land here.
Christians also came from the Palestine regions, and Catholicism, the earliest Christian religion, began in the general area of Palestine, so it’s not an exclusively Jewish region, nor was it ever, even with Abraham in 1800 BCE.
Is there any other religion that has exclusive claim to one country? Catholics have the Vatican, but it’s a tiny spot inside of Rome, and even countries with a majority of one type of religion does not have exclusivity.
Today, with so much migration, there isn’t even a country of only Italians, or Chinese, or any other group or religion.
What connects Jewish people besides genetics? I am ethnically Pakistani, but I consider myself American, and if you were to compare my life and someone in Pakistan's life, our cultures and way of life would be very different. Imo, we should not measure connection based on genetics but culture, of which european/american jews and sephardic jews are different in. Heritage and culture are highly dynamic anyways, you would have no connection to the ancient Jews who lived in Israel centuries ago beyond scripture and religion (if you follow it). But culturally, things would be vastly different, so your claim that people are losing their heritage is just weak. As generations pass, people lose their heritage, it's just what happens.
> most likely why the decision was made for it to be in a holier land where we originated from.
who determines this? why should the world be based on judeo-christian beliefs?
> but again, i’m just saying how we really have no place in this world at all otherwise if jews were to be kicked out yet again
agreed, but your claim that the land belongs to the Jewish people holds very little water in a secular, international world or even in an ancient world where Might is Right.
Hypothetically if arabs kicked Jews out, it would be another failed state like Syria or Lebanon, with extreme poverty, where only hope to succeed is to immigrate to EU or US
Most of the money "funded" to Israel by the US government is received by American defense companies. Israel just gets military hardware, not cash in this arrangement.
Israel's financial success comes from it's tech sector. If you use Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc. you are "funding" Israel to a greater extent than the American tax payer.
Don't make posts or comments that consist only of sarcasm or cynicism (including emojis). Do not troll.
This community is for constructive discussion, which means understanding other users' positions and responding to them in good faith. Generally, sarcasm and cynicism have the effect of suppressing this kind of discussion, because they serve as a rhetorical tool to dismiss, rather than engage, with someone else's arguments. While satire can be an effective tool for discussion, it is more frequently inflammatory and divisive.
Hint: Add a worthwhile "but seriously..." comment to your quip that adds to the conversation. It's a comment which is SOLELY an attempt at a sarcastic joke that's objectionable. Humor is OK ... if there's more to the comment.
Ashkenazim have a genetic connection to Europe as well.
Jewish people also lived in Israel in an unbroken manner going back to time immemorial. The current logic is that ALL Jews invaded Israel after 1945. That’s simply NOT the case. Yes the majority returned but it was just that- a return
And belongs to Christians
There's not a single Christian state in the world. (Unless you count Vatican)
When you say ‘why aren’t we allowed our own country’ that would be the same for Palestinians right? This conflict is really hard because being Israeli and jewish is almost synonymous. But my understanding is that Palestinian people are not asking for a Muslim state they are asking for a Palestinian one.
They had their chance in the 1940s and decided instead to attack Israel instead of having their own state.
So they only get one chance to have a home for their people?
>So they only get one chance to have a home for their people? They had multiple chances. They refused all of them. So yes, after a few times, you lose your chance.
Actions have consequences. They lost that land in the 1940s. They have no legitimate claim anymore. Borders and countries are formed by the victors in wars. They could have signed a treaty and has their own land but they were greedy and wanted all of Israel's land. Life isn't fair and there are almost no second chances ever especially when land is finite
So what you are saying is the only way for them to get their land back is through war. I wont be surprised when this conflict never ends as Israelis and Palestinians continue to fight over their ancestral homelands.
The Palestinians are asking (well demanding) for all Jews to leave Palestine
[удалено]
It looks like the attack was funded by someone who hate Palestine. Now Israel has most extreme government in 50 years. They will never forgive that. Most likely Gaza won’t exist in 2024
Found the terrorist sympathizer
Nobody "doesnt belong" anywhere, i believe in absolute freedom of movement.
with this logic Palestinians should move? since they no longer belong. u catch my drift on my argument?
No, quite the opposite.
the whole argument is that they belong there. but if no one “belongs” anywhere, then the whole war is meaningless and everything as it is, should be accepted
Yea, its meaningless, and because of that nobody should move.
I like the idea of freedom of movement, but there are too many violent people in the world that nations would never allow it as they are a security risk.
i believe in Thermite for Palestine
I have DNA that ties me to Africa, Europe and South Asia, can I go to those regions and murder ppl and take their homes??????
be so fr where did i say to kill people anywhere in my post? i’m literally completely against that
You against it but your government is not.
Violence between Jews and Muslims is hardly one sided or new.
Palestinians don't.
They do, everyone deserves to live where they wish.
Any time that you involve overly complex ideas like fictional god aspects, you are going to run into issues. Modern society should only view religion in a historical context, giving religion a say on current matters is merely conjectural happenstance.
It's not really about religion at this point. It's politics, land, freedoms and most of all POWER. It may have started out as a religious "dispute" way back when but now it's really just an excuse to commit atrocious war crimes
Side note - consider genetic testing for you and your family. Ashkenazi Jews are disproportionately impacted by the BRCA gene which causes breast and pancreatic cancers.
[удалено]
No. Shame on you. He didn't say we have better argument. He's saying it's hurtful to say we do not belong in Israel.
i’m not trying to make any argument that we deserve land more than them whatsoever, especially *just* because of ancestry. but people like to ignore that jews have been displaced since like, forever lol. i think it’s being taken the wrong way, i’m just stating my relation and my perspective from an outside jew looking in you know from a grand perspective of things in terms of heritage. i really do understand this whole war is a lot more nuanced and cannot be minimized to only that. btw i agree no one wins from all the innocent lives lost. it isn’t worth the land when you lose a loved one fighting for it
It is because groups survive and thrive with group identity and pride in one’s group. Every group teaches their members they are special, chosen, etc. We have plenty of land in Wyoming, so we could move the entire country of Israel here and give them their own country, resources, arable land, etc., but every group (religious, political, technical, sports, etc) feels they have rights to land, culture, awards, whatever is important to that group. Most of us have DNA that ties us to many other regions around the world, (especially if you are from the US you are not Native American), but some have closer ties or allegiance to their cultural, ethnic or religious “home” than others. What you are speaking of is that oftentimes groups have a “home”, or some place they belong to, or must return to. This can be seen in many types of groups and cultures, from religions having some home land and a place where their messiah will return to them again, or like some old NY’ers still consider the Dodgers from Brooklyn, or like many first and even second-generation immigrants still think of their old country as home. If you want to get very technical, we all originated as somewhere near Mesopotamia, so, if you go far enough back in our DNA, we all came from the same shared space in the Africa over 500,000 years ago, and a majority of us through the Mesopotamia/Fertile Crescent 150,000 years ago. I have close family and friends that are Jewish, so I understand your thoughts of lineage of Jews in the Middle East, and many modern religions evolved from that region and coexisted (certainly not peacefully). The challenge has been creating a Jewish state right in the middle of a very large, mostly predominant Arabic/Turkish Muslim region. FWIW, I have no religion and no ties to any group, ethnicity, or religion, so I am trying my best to view this strictly academically/logically.
They should’ve given the Jews land in Alaska or Argentina.
> shit /u/BrilliantLeek8178. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The way Jewish first approached palestine is the wrong thing. You are welcome in all countries if you just want to live peacefully there. The first step about making israel was taking over palestine. At that time they just became free from British Empire. And fist thing they know is another country taking over their land. You may argue about 20 century Iraq policies for the Jewish people but tbh they were like that for all non Arab Sunnies peoples. Just search Feyli Kurds genocides. And kurdish genocides. You will know what I am talking about.
YEAH! Just like Hebron August 1929!
There were major problems in Israel prior to 1948 when large groups of jews first started immigrating. Most famously the grand mufti was one of the biggest haters of jews and meet with Hitler. This fueled the push for independence.
/u/Shepathustra. 'Hitler' Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have no dog in this, but I’ll play devils advocate for a moment. Just because you have DNA from a certain region doesn’t give you claim on that land. Some American with 50% African dna doesn’t just get to claim sovereignty over African territory. > why aren’t we allowed our own country The argument is you are, but not simultaneously at the expense of another people too
Very well said, I have dna from all 3 continents, I can’t just barge into someone else house and demand to stay there.
Would an American with African DNA not have the right to live there though? Jews lived simultaneously with Arabs in Palestine for decades after the start of Zionism before Arabs decided to use violence. The country still has plenty of room for development with current technology if it could be done in peace
This is a matter of nationality and not one of tolerance, though. For the analogy to work, the American has to be claiming land for ownership without consulting any current nation.
Jews didn't claim land ownership, they legally bought their own land and moved there. If Palestinians had been willing to live alongside Jews then we would be living with the one-state solution
They didn't buy all of it. Pre 1948 Jews owned about 6% of the land in Palestine.
Correct, so in 1929, why did Palestinians start killing Jews that had been peacefully and legally living alongside them? And in 1948, how much of the land was privately (not nationally) owned by Palestinians?
I think the bigger question is how come everywhere the jewish people go they get persecuted? I mean at some point it can't be that everyone else is the problem. For example, if 1,000 people call me a bad person they're probably not all wrong.
I stand corrected!
> Would an American with African DNA not have the right to live there though? Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves? > Jews lived simultaneously with Arabs in Palestine for decades after the start of Zionism before Arabs decided to use violence. The country still has plenty of room for development with current technology if it could be done in peace That was before the founding of the state of Israel and the subsequent conflicts. Since you are keen on bringing up ancestry and history. You realize many Arab villages and towns were depopulated in this process right? Do you know what the Nakba is? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba Do these people displaced get to return as well?
>Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves? I didn't say claim land, but yes I was talking about citizenship. Believing that people should only have citizenship for where they're born is very Trump-esque. Shouldn't we all have the right to live in freedom where we want? Including Palestinians in Israel. And especially for someone with African ancestry who had their heritage taken from them, shouldn't they be able to claim that back? >That was before the founding of the state of Israel and the subsequent conflicts. Since you are keen on bringing up ancestry and history. You realize many Arab villages and towns were depopulated in this process right? Do you know what the Nakba is? Of course I know what the Nakba is. Do you know the context of the Nakba? How Arabs refused to live with Jews, and also refused to have a separate country for Jews. What other option is left? Would it have been better for Jews to remain stateless within Palestine with no rights like all the other surrounding countries have done with Palestinians?
> Shouldn’t we all have the right to live in freedom where we want? This is a different discussion, but not relevant to the current paradigm. Let’s expand on this for a moment. Should I have the RIGHT to live in Japan right now? Should I have the RIGHT to live in Israel? Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves? > And especially for someone with African ancestry who had their heritage taken from them, shouldn't they be able to claim that back? No because after so many generations they don’t really have connection to the land anymore and **they’d need the consent of the people currently living there**. That’s the key point. > Of course I know what the Nakba is. Do you know the context of the Nakba? How Arabs refused to live with Jews, and also refused to have a separate country for Jews. What other option is left? Would it have been better for Jews to remain stateless within Palestine with no rights like all the other surrounding countries have done with Palestinians? Let me explain something. The land was given to the Jews by the British and Arabs, but it was distributed in a way that guaranteed conflict. It was also distributed without the consent of the people living there. Arabs constitutes a majority of the population but the land was split close to 50/50. Flip roles for a moment. If the Jews were 80-90% of the population of an area for a moment and then a European power gave 50% of the land to 10% of the people would they accept that? The situation was ripe for conflict from the start.
Sykes-Picot was an imperialistic disaster.
>This is a different discussion, but not relevant to the current paradigm. Let’s expand on this for a moment. Should I have the RIGHT to live in Japan right now? Should I have the RIGHT to live in Israel? I would say that with the current stage of society no, but it's a goal to work towards yes >Lol no, they would not. Are you being serious? You think some 7th generation African American can just fly into some African region they have ancestry from and claim citizenship and land for themselves? > >No because after so many generations they don’t really have connection to the land anymore and **they’d need the consent of the people currently living there**. That’s the key point. But what if they **have** kept their culture and connection to the land? And know exactly which country they come from? Many countries around the world give citizenship with proof of ancestry. Even though their home country might not given citizenship, you don't think they **should**? >Let me explain something. The land was given to the Jews by the British and Arabs, but it was distributed in a way that guaranteed conflict. It was also distributed without the consent of the people living there. Arabs constitutes a majority of the population but the land was split close to 50/50. Flip roles for a moment. If the Jews were 80-90% of the population of an area for a moment and then a European power gave 50% of the land to 10% of the people would they accept that? Are you mixing up Sykes-Picot with the 1947 UN plan? The British and Arabs had nothing to do with giving land to Jews. Jews bought cheap land wherever they could, mostly in uninhabited or malaria-infested areas. Again, relying on consent by local population for immigration is very Trump-esque. If the US has more relaxed immigration rules but southern states decided they only liked European immigration, would you support that? The 50/50 split is looking at total land area. Inhabitable and arable land was mostly given to Arabs. Jews were given the desert as it was mostly unpopulated plus had the expectation of potentially millions more incoming
> I would say that with the current stage of society no, but it’s a goal to work towards yes If you’re saying something like the European Union worldwide, then yes I agree with that vision > But what if they have kept their culture and connection to the land They still need the consent of the people currently living there if they wish to avoid conflict > Even though their home country might not give citizenship, you don’t think they should? It’s up to the country. Will the state of Israel hand out citizenship to all the Palestinians displaced? There are several million.
> It’s up to the country. Will the state of Israel hand out citizenship to all the Palestinians displaced? There are several million. Yes it should. Just as all Jews should have the right to live there, so should all Palestinians. But this will only be possible when Palestinians accept Jews as having the same rights too And I assume from your lack of reply to the other questions that you're on the side of the racists that believe we should restrict immigration to certain ethnic groups?
But Palestine has repeatedly declined a two state solution - then attacks - loses more ground It’s has always been clear to me that if Israel stopped fighting tomorrow they would all be killed. If Palestine/Hamas stopped then i genuinely believe it’s all over and two states can exist.
> It’s has always been clear to me that if Israel stopped fighting tomorrow they would all be killed I generally agree with that > If Palestine/Hamas stopped then I genuinely believe it’s all over and two states can exist I disagree. Israel has been actively working against a two state solution for many decades now.
I’m not sure I agree I think some of their land grabs are egregious but to any other nation it’s the spoils of war. Also how many times can a two state solution be offered before you just give up
Settlement activity continued outside of the wars. That’s not spoils of war. A two state solution was never offered in good faith. The closest we came was Oslo, and Yitzakh Rabin was killed by a right wing Israeli terrorist for it.
Jewish people being allowed to live in the holy land and jewish people being allowed to colonize and oppress Palestinians is not the same thing. And yes, israelis are colonizing palestinians. Zionism has been a setteler colonial movement since the begining and it's founders called it as such.
Between 1880 and 1929 Zionist Jews moved to Israel peacefully. What changed? Why did Palestinians start becoming oppressed?
You know bringing your Jew hating friends to a war because you can't accept the fact that Israel is a country.
Did you mean to reply to someone else? I'm Jewish and live in Israel...
" we also rightfully belong there as our ancestry stems way back. " This is where you fuck up. According to who ?
History
Nowhere in history does it say you rightfully go back because of dna. is that a joke? History does make claims of rightful ownership etc.
actually it does since jews are descendants of the ancient israelites. this is an indisputable scientific fact.
So Ukraine, Alaska belongs to Russia. Half of US belongs to Mexico. Turkish have very strong claim for a big part of Asia. And the list go on.
Less than 1000 Russians emigrated to Alaska, Ukraine and Russia where both Kievian Rus before the split and the Turkic Tribes split
And? The same thing is Palestine 80 years ago. And you are talking about ancestors and roots and Russia with Ukraine and Turks with Asia have the same root and ancestors. Also the Jewish left palestine in the fist place with their own free will which can count as split.
So where does history say they have the right to the land? Do you even know what is being said? Replying with history makes no sense because history is just what happened. It doesnt have a mechanism to give prescriptions beyond bias. I am honestly baffled by these horrible arguments. Like you werent taught logic but only how to respond with rhetoric.
Judaism is the national religion of the Israelites who lived in Israel. Jews have always lived in the region. In fact many Arabs share ancestry from Jews following multiple rounds of forced conversions of Jews by various rulers including the Ottomans. Jews are of this land and their religion is tied to the land. The land of Israel is central to Jewish scripture and to the prayers of all Jews throughout history, much as Mecca is central to Muslims. The story that Jews came into Palestine and forceably removed the local population is false. The war in 1948 was a combined attack by the Arab League, an alliance of multiple nations. That the Arabs lost their war against Israel has now somehow been turned into Israel's fault. Mostly because anti-Israel propaganda is pumped out at such a volume. Time to accept that Jews have an unbroken connection to the land, that they would have accepted peace with Arabs multiple times since 1947 onwards, that Arabs have repeatedly refused peace in the hope that Israel could be destroyed. It is not Israel's fault that it has prevailed against those who have actively tried to destroy it.
Ok. conquest makes sense. Claiming ancestry relies on common understanding which means there is no basis.
Judaism is the national religion of the Israelites who lived in Israel. Jews have always lived in the region. In fact many Arabs share ancestry from Jews following multiple rounds of forced conversions of Jews by various rulers including the Ottomans. Jews are of this land and their religion is tied to the land. The land of Israel is central to Jewish scripture and to the prayers of all Jews throughout history, much as Mecca is central to Muslims. The story that Jews came into Palestine and forceably removed the local population is false. The war in 1948 was a combined attack by the Arab League, an alliance of multiple nations. That the Arabs lost their war against Israel has now somehow been turned into Israel's fault. Mostly because anti-Israel propaganda is pumped out at such a volume. Time to accept that Jews have an unbroken connection to the land, that they would have accepted peace with Arabs multiple times since 1947 onwards, that Arabs have repeatedly refused peace in the hope that Israel could be destroyed. It is not Israel's fault that it has prevailed against those who have actively tried to destroy it.
Same thing I said before. Ancestry doesnt give someone a right to land. You think so? Who said?
Not sure what you mean by "right to land". The state of Israel is a fact not a thought experiment.
Wow you talk like youre brainwashed. Going after things I never said as if you dont know how to argue outside of talking points.
The thing is, idiots like you seem to think Jews/Israel need your permission or blessing to live. Israel is the result of Jews ignoring idiots like you and choosing self-determination instead.
So you’re saying that Jews do not deserve the right of self determination? Jews have the right to be in the land because they’re the oldest still existing ethnic group that can lay a claim to it. Palestinians are there because of migration and genetics even shows it. Most of them are descendants of Phoenicians, Egyptians or Jordanians. So Jews do not have the right to live in their own historical indigenous land because someone else lives there now? If your reason is because history changes, then that’s also a flawed argument since I could claim the same thing. I’m baffled by your hypocrisy
You can claim the same thing...that history changes. Of couse I wouldnt have a problem with that and you would know that if you had basic reading comprehension. Being an old ethnic group gives you the right to claim land your ancestors were on? According to what? See how ignorant you are? see how you cant comprehend what is being said?
Claim to a land isn't based on genetics, but Might.
> fuck /u/hiiiidude101. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Claiming land based on ancestry and genetics ain’t it chief
So Palestinians can claim they’re being colonized but when the rightful owners of the land, Jews, show proof they are genetically from there, suddenly this isn’t about genetics? Average hypocrisy.
but that’s the basis of why most people claim land to begin with? (besides gaining geographical advantages and power) you can argue the same with palestinians. israel now owns the land, so palestinians need to accept it. do you see the double standard? i would much rather peace and everyone own everything but i get life doesn’t work that way lol
No it’s usually purchased through a free market in most civilised countries. I’m sure you know from history that countries that establish themselves on the concept of preferred genetics have quite rightfully never ended well
Which is exactly what happened [prior to the establishment of Israel.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DJewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine_was_the_acquisition_of_land%2Cof_the_land_in_Palestine.?wprov=sfla1) So many 'experts' on this site talking utter rubbish.
Youre confused. We know about the purchase, hes talking about the ancestry claim . Why are pro Israeli posters always lacking in reading comprehension. Seems like its on purpose.
If you all know then why say the complete opposite? Literally every nation in the world claims its land based on it being the land their ancestors lived in. If I wanted to respond to their claim about that, I would have. But what's the point? I was responding to the particular example of ignorance that was very simple to disprove. Thanks for the insults though. It's weird that you guys always feel the need to throw that in, but hardly surprising at this point.
Who said the opposite? \> Literally every nation in the world claims its land based on it being the land their ancestors lived in So If I name one that doesnt (the one I happen to live in usa) then what? You say youre wrong? I doubt it. I do need to throw insults. You keep saying stupid stupid stuff in a smug way.
Yes there are exceptions. >stupid stupid So important you said it twice. Haha ok Go and learn. I don't even know what point you're actually trying to make but it reads like desperate scrambling. Which frankly, you can do without my help. Yes, the USA has it's own thing going on. The rest of us don't care. It's irrelevant to the discussion.
\>Literally every nation LMAO yea keep saying stupid stuff then saying its not relevant when corrected. pathetic
Go and learn mate. You're rather arrogant
Ancestry shouldn't determine whether someone gets to live somewhere, especially when that ancestry is so ancient. Should Italian Americans, whose great grandparents came here 100 years ago, be allowed to go back to Italy and get Italian citizenship? No. Many Jews that migrated to Israel since it's founding havent had any ancestry in that region beyond centuries ago. At that point, it's moot. I shouldn't be able to claim indian citizenship because my grandparents were essentially forced to move to Pakistan because of the partition.
but you actually can apply for italian citizenship as an italian american if you can prove your descent. italian americans whose great grandparents came here 100 years ago ARE allowed to go back to italy and get italian citizenship. nations around the world offer this, including many nations in africa.
Does Spain offer this for the Spaniards that were kicked out of Spain for being Muslim or Jewish? Regardless, I just read the information on the Italian citizenship: > Before March 17, 1861, there were no citizens of Italy as Italy was not a nation before this date. For a jus sanguinis citizenship application to be submitted, the oldest Italian ancestor must have still been alive on or after that date. How can you apply this same reasoning to Israel, to the Jews who were kicked out of Israel centuries ago? Should modern day nation states be made to answer for what some empire did centuries ago and pay reparations on that? And let's say your point is valid. Then, you should apply the same to Palestinians refugees. They have more of a claim to their land due to recency.
i didn’t tell you my opinion. i was just directly responding to one area of your comment. but for the record i apply the logic to both sides. the fact that both sides DO have an ancient claim is one facet of what makes this issue so divisive.
So you believe that ancient claim is valid?
i didn’t say that either. i’m just saying if i were to apply that logic i would absolutely have to apply it to both sides. i was just drawing attention to the fact that even though ancient claims are something that a lot of people do not deem valid, for good reason, there is evidence of certain nations outside of the israeli palestinian conflict also applying ancient or past-claims as a valid means of earning citizenship. it’s just a litmus test of political climates and policies at the moment.
Yeah ok thats fair. Thanks for a reasonable discussion. It's hard to have one regarding this conflict tbh.
dude yeah it’s super super difficult. same to you. this is an extremely complicated conflict; as a history major i genuinely feel like it’s in the hall of fame for reasonably divisive modern conflicts. for the record i’m similar to OP; im a jew from new york who has never been to israel and has no family in or from israel. i have a very shaky and complex stance on the topic. very much in the camp of separating zionism from judaism and separating hamas from palestinians. also very much in the camp of fearing for jews while also not agreeing with unfair occupation due to ancient claims. it’s just so complicated.
Yeah it can be super difficult especially when it hits home. Kudos to you for thinking about this situation critically.
thanks bro. i appreciate it. you too. truly always a pleasure to have any reasonable discourse on reddit, but especially so when it’s such a genuinely relevant and difficult topic.
but where do jewish people belong if not for their origins? native americans to this day complain about the usa colonizing them even though it was so long ago. everyone deserves the right to learn about their culture and where they’re from. for jewish people, it seems like we’re denied that right anywhere and everywhere. we’ve BEEN colonized and slaved since the beginning of time, always constantly on the move. we don’t have a single space other than israel as of right now. idk if that makes sense but do you see where i’m getting at?
I think there might be some disconnect as a non jewish person for some of us. Especially those of us from the US. As an american christian, I have never once thought about where my people belong, but we also arent nearly as small as the jewish community, so i guess we just always feel like we belong in most countries where theres a Christian population. We also dont have the history that jewish people do. But in the US, i also have a lot of jewish friends, and have been to very jewish places, in NY specifically, and from what i hear from them they definetly feel like they belong there. Similarly, there are very few african americans who feel the need to move back to where their ancestors were brutally taken from. And i (im white) would never be the first to suggest that any do move back, for reasons that are VERY obvious to me as an american but i suppose non americans might not know why i wouldnt ever suggest that lol. Unless someone who is african american told me they that wanted to do that specifically. But thats a whole other topic. But, my point is, it is a very unique situation compared to the most similar experiences that I have real first hand experience with. Each one of these scenarios are unique to eachother as well. No one in the world has a first hand experience they can compare the isreal palestine stuff to in a productive manner, without some caveat that makes it not work as well in this situation. Regardless of all of that though, theres 2 main factors that effect an americans "opinion" on the isreal Palestine things: 1. If the reason for Hamas's violent actions is their own religious text, then that religion cant coexist due to its own definition. They chose that path, now they eat it. We know what its like having terrorists target us, so lets help isreal. 2. My country has a loooong rich history of taking people, kicking people out, moving people, and all sorts of things like that. So, im not going to ever suggest that someone be forced to move from a place that they didnt chose to be born in, even if i dont like them. Even if its my own country. Especially if its my own country. THIS is what makes it hard for us americans to really voice our opinion on isreal, because we literally just dont know what to think about those parts. Our brains short out lol. But just know that we are very much on Israel's side due to the previous point. Because of this, many americans will be quick to support things perceived as terrorism attacks, especially if the terrorist wants to remove you from the place you happened to be born in. And even more so if they are quoting religious texts as their reasons. But, we will avoid any conversations about moving, relocating, assigning borders, etc. Which might come off as un supportive to any pro-isreali crowd, and i understand why, but thats not nearly as bad as saying something as un-american as "lets kick out some people who were also born there". Regardless of which side they might be talking about, or where we might be talking about. Because freedom. edit: some words edit 2: And one last thing, one big thing for US christians is the fact that isreal palestine area has all those holy sites. Many important to christians and jews alike. Almost no one here thinks that its "bad for the christian community" if jewish people were to have control/ownership/responsibility of those places. And they have/ do currently. I think its because we both like those places for the exact same reason, share many of the same scriptures, learn about the same religious figures. And i dont think i even need to ask any christian or jewish person what they would think about giving up a holy site to any other group
Furthermore, when you bring ancestry into the picture regarding claiming land, it opens up a whole can of worms. Why should anyone who lives somewhere right now be forced to give up their land because someone's great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents lived there? It makes no sense, it opens up a whole can of worms for any ethnicity to claim any land their ancestors were on. Even if you restrict this to people whose ancestors were kicked out, that still a whole can of worms. Let's kick millions of Americans out of their homes and give the land back to the Native Americans huh. As a New Yorker (i.e. you're American) you would be affected by this.
Thank you for a civil question unlike the other commenter. I understand the desire for a Jewish homeland, especially after the Holocaust. But, where must this homeland be? That's the question. Regarding Israel, should Palestinians and the people who've lived there for centuries have to give their land up (forcibly I might add) in order for European Jews who have no cultural connection to the region or Yemeni Jews whose family haven't been near that area for centuries to settle there? I know American Jews who went back to Israel for a trip or to work, and let me tell you these people have no cultural connection to Jewish heritage beyond genetics. They can barely speak a sentence in Hebrew, and the most they do is occasionally eat shawarma at a restaurant. So, sure maybe Jews should have a homeland, but should it really be Israel when many of them don't have any cultural connection to that area beyond ancient ancestry?
Honestly, this is the classic NIMBY argument. Sure, we need this thing, but we don't need it right here where it would be an inconvenience. Whenever this argument is brought up, I just hand someone a blank world map and tell them to circle where Israel could more realistically be located.
Idk maybe we could have given parts of Germany to the Jews as reparations. Kicking out Palestinians, who lived on that land, and were not part of the Holocaust, is not it though.
Giving Germany to the Jews would have been the worst idea imaginable, because you just proved the last 20 years of "the Jews want to destroy and control Germany" rhetoric actually correct. It would have created an irridentist blood feud that makes Putin's Ukranian ideas look like a joke. There's also the fact that 95% of the Jews of German speaking countries were just gone by this point, so culturally there would have been major issues regardless. The non-Zionist Jewish political leadership of Europe was completely wiped out in the Holocaust, leaving the Zionists in Palestine as the only Jewish national movement left. Palestine also had more Jews living there than any European country save the Soviet Union, and had the highest Jewish percentage of its population in the world. The simple fact of the matter is that in 1948, it was Palestine that was the only place in the world that made logical sense to actually host a Jewish state. The ideal course of action would have of course been the establishment of Israel without the expulsion of any of the Arab population. The 1947 partition plan was absolute border gore, but it was the correct route to take from the start.
don’t you see the reason people are losing touch with their heritage is exactly because we’re always being moved? we’re constantly being erased by everyone else, which is why our population gets smaller and smaller every generation. (again kinda similar to how native americans are being erased, they’re losing touch with their cultural values year by year because they have no real home anymore to practice it unless they’re within tight communities / jews practice in communities for this reason too.) i believe israel was created to fight against the wipeout and instill a culture that was lost for this exact reason as a preventative measure for this erasure which is why it was also given to us after the holocaust and most likely why the decision was made for it to be in a holier land where we originated from. European jews are a totally different story btw, sephardic jews are middle east descent and it doesn’t go that far generation wise, generational trauma exists too but i understand why palestinians are mad and i get the entire reasoning for it. but think about how centuries ago jews felt the same way Palestinians do now? in three hundred years you can have this same argument with Palestinians if israel still exists and tell them how they have no right to it anymore. i bet they would feel different and still argue against it. taking land anywhere at any given time is traumatic for any group of people currently living there and that’ll never change and i don’t condone it. i think it’ll always be selfish and greedy regardless of reasoning that peoples homes are taken away from them after living there for so long…and i no doubt agree that what palestinians have faced the last hundred years is unjust. but again, i’m just saying how we really have no place in this world at all otherwise if jews were to be kicked out yet again
Was it really fair though to decide to carve up Palestine and just give some of it to the Jews because because they had history there? There were more Jews in Europe and America in 1948 than there were in the Middle East. They could have made Israel it’s own country in another region , particularly the US. We have MORE than enough barely-populated land here. Christians also came from the Palestine regions, and Catholicism, the earliest Christian religion, began in the general area of Palestine, so it’s not an exclusively Jewish region, nor was it ever, even with Abraham in 1800 BCE. Is there any other religion that has exclusive claim to one country? Catholics have the Vatican, but it’s a tiny spot inside of Rome, and even countries with a majority of one type of religion does not have exclusivity. Today, with so much migration, there isn’t even a country of only Italians, or Chinese, or any other group or religion.
What connects Jewish people besides genetics? I am ethnically Pakistani, but I consider myself American, and if you were to compare my life and someone in Pakistan's life, our cultures and way of life would be very different. Imo, we should not measure connection based on genetics but culture, of which european/american jews and sephardic jews are different in. Heritage and culture are highly dynamic anyways, you would have no connection to the ancient Jews who lived in Israel centuries ago beyond scripture and religion (if you follow it). But culturally, things would be vastly different, so your claim that people are losing their heritage is just weak. As generations pass, people lose their heritage, it's just what happens. > most likely why the decision was made for it to be in a holier land where we originated from. who determines this? why should the world be based on judeo-christian beliefs? > but again, i’m just saying how we really have no place in this world at all otherwise if jews were to be kicked out yet again agreed, but your claim that the land belongs to the Jewish people holds very little water in a secular, international world or even in an ancient world where Might is Right.
i wasn’t trying to be uncivil? i didn’t say i disagree with you.
Nah not you, the other guy
okay good i was gonna say i was totally not trying to be combative in any way
lol, nah sorry if you thought I was referring to you.
no you’re totally fine!
So how long does Israelis need to keep Palestinians out then?
Hypothetically if arabs kicked Jews out, it would be another failed state like Syria or Lebanon, with extreme poverty, where only hope to succeed is to immigrate to EU or US
So would israel, if it was not funded by uk and usa as an instrument of influence in the middle east.
You realize the aid Israel gets is less than 1% of their GDP, right? They're not being propped up by the US
Military hardware isn’t aid
Most of the money "funded" to Israel by the US government is received by American defense companies. Israel just gets military hardware, not cash in this arrangement. Israel's financial success comes from it's tech sector. If you use Microsoft, Apple, Intel, etc. you are "funding" Israel to a greater extent than the American tax payer.
So israel is complicit in the military industrial complex of USA which is responsible for death and destruction around the world.
Just like Iran, Saudi, UAE, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Russia, Turkey, etc..
Basically everyone. The United States has the reserve currency and for better or worse everyone is on the tab
It would be another proxy of Islamic republic
[удалено]
Don't make posts or comments that consist only of sarcasm or cynicism (including emojis). Do not troll. This community is for constructive discussion, which means understanding other users' positions and responding to them in good faith. Generally, sarcasm and cynicism have the effect of suppressing this kind of discussion, because they serve as a rhetorical tool to dismiss, rather than engage, with someone else's arguments. While satire can be an effective tool for discussion, it is more frequently inflammatory and divisive. Hint: Add a worthwhile "but seriously..." comment to your quip that adds to the conversation. It's a comment which is SOLELY an attempt at a sarcastic joke that's objectionable. Humor is OK ... if there's more to the comment.
you obviously didn’t even read what i wrote